Fast and Furious [Archive] - Glock Talk

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Sam Spade
11-04-2011, 15:06
For some bizzaro reason, the FOP has decided to offer a nod of support to Eric Holder, prior to his testimony on Fast and Furious. http://www.politico.com/news/stories/1111/67575.html

Personally, I don't think that's reflective of the working cop's point of view. I'd like to hear what y'all say. I know we have non-LE visitors here. I welcome your comments, but would ask that you not vote in the poll, so it can reflect the street's POV. Thanks.

Ajon412
11-04-2011, 15:34
The National FOP supported Holder during his confirmation hearings, so this is no surprise...Go figure...:dunno:

Hunca Munca
11-04-2011, 15:37
My take:

Fast and Furious was a political operation set up to "prove" the US was the source of Mexican gun violence. The plan was to then use this "evidence" as a basis for further gun control initiatives in the US. Holder knew. Obama knew.

Patchman
11-04-2011, 15:45
I didn't vote because none of the choices reflect what I think happened.

To me, intel is the most important thing if you're interested in bring down organizations, not just individual little soldiers. If you're interested in just individual soldiers, then a buy-and-bust approach is the way to go. If you're interested in bringing down a large chunk of the organization, the first thing you need is a roadmap of the organization's structure. Tracing guns is one way. Tracing money is another.

Of course, everything is complicated by the fact that the operation involved a foreign country. (Are there U.S. laws that forbid the ATF from doing this? (I don't know)).

So I would vote for "A valid operation that appears to have gone wrong. (Maybe even accurate to say it spiraled out of control). Don't know (or care) if Holder knew. Some people within ATF were trying to think outside the box, and yeah, it came back to bite them in the ass. Yeah, innocent LEOs and others were killed. But if they were't killed by 'Fast & Furious' guns, they would likely have been killed by other guns."

Does it look bad for ATF? Absolutely.

Guns don't kill people. People kill people. If those killers didn't have access to 'Fast and Furious' guns, they would have gotten other guns. Plenty of other people are supplying the Cartels.

alwaysshootin
11-04-2011, 15:47
My take:

Fast and Furious was a political operation set up to "prove" the US was the source of Mexican gun violence. The plan was to then use this "evidence" as a basis for further gun control initiatives in the US. Holder knew. Obama knew.

No ifs, ands, or, buts, about it, this, is the reason for "Fast and Furious"! Lame street media, was touting that 90% of the illegal guns in Mexico were from the U.S., causing the need for reimplementing the AWB, well before FAF, was disclosed. It was a complete setup, to obtain objectives for the anti gun crowd.

Dragoon44
11-04-2011, 16:33
I am not surprised. unless there has been a radical change national FOP has ALWAYS been anti gun and pro gun control.

p.d.
11-04-2011, 16:44
I am not surprised. unless there has been a radical change national FOP has ALWAYS been anti gun and pro gun control.

As has the IACP.

Glockdude1
11-04-2011, 16:45
My take:

Fast and Furious was a political operation set up to "prove" the US was the source of Mexican gun violence. The plan was to then use this "evidence" as a basis for further gun control initiatives in the US. Holder knew. Obama knew.

:agree:

blueiron
11-04-2011, 16:49
Anyone who believes that this operation was conducted without the knowledge of and explicit consent of BATFE, DOJ, Dep't of State, and the White House is either unknowing as to how government works or disingenuous.

A government LE agency cannot conduct operations into another sovereign nation that involve contraband into that nation without the consent of everyone in the entire cleared chain of command. To do so otherwise, would be inviting huge national and lack of control rogue agency repercussions otherwise. This does not include the international repercussions when the affected nation found out what was occurring. Either everyone knew or BATFE is out of control and a rogue agency. No one inside or outside of government is asking which.

What appears to be simple exportation of firearms by a U.S. gov't agency is the equivalent of the government of Mexico formally exporting illegal narcotics into the United States. The Mexicans do not want more firearms in their nation and they have strict gun control.

This is a calculated clandestine maneuver that has blown up and has repercussions on both sides of the border. Both Mexicans and U.S. citizens have been killed by a stupid operation that was dreamt up by moronic bureaucrats looking for an internal promotion.

merlynusn
11-04-2011, 17:20
Anyone who believes that this operation was conducted without the knowledge of and explicit consent of BATFE, DOJ, Dep't of State, and the White House is either unknowing as to how government works or disingenuous.

A government LE agency cannot conduct operations into another sovereign nation that involve contraband into that nation without the consent of everyone in the entire cleared chain of command. To do so otherwise, would be inviting huge national and lack of control rogue agency repercussions otherwise. This does not include the international repercussions when the affected nation found out what was occurring. Either everyone knew or BATFE is out of control and a rogue agency. No one inside or outside of government is asking which.

What appears to be simple exportation of firearms by a U.S. gov't agency is the equivalent of the government of Mexico formally exporting illegal narcotics into the United States. The Mexicans do not want more firearms in their nation and they have strict gun control.

This is a calculated clandestine maneuver that has blown up and has repercussions on both sides of the border. Both Mexicans and U.S. citizens have been killed by a stupid operation that was dreamt up by moronic bureaucrats looking for an internal promotion.

+1 :agree:

glock192327
11-04-2011, 17:44
+1 :agree:

+2
:goodpost:

CAcop
11-04-2011, 17:56
I can't think of a vaild reason to allow guns to cross the border. What are they planning with that op? To get drug kingpins on weapons violations? Drug dealing and murder are the two biggest businesses for these cartels. Why not focus on that? What does adding guns to that mix cause? Why tell gun dealers to violate the law after they reported attempted illegal purchases as required by law?

I say it again. I cannot think of a vaild reason why any law enforcement officer would allow guns to walk. IF the AG or any other official has a good reason I would be willing to listen. So far I haven't heard a good one yet. And you would think if there was they would have said it by now.

jethro21
11-04-2011, 18:02
We participated in Fast and Furious in the last days of the operation, long before any of this came to light, however we never (in the ops I was a part of) let the weapons leave the stateand we took them all off after several straw purchases.

I will say this, the indecisiveness of the feds working it was frustrating and concerning. We played a very small support part of this operation (surveillance and traffic stops) so I wouldn't expect a full briefing on the purpose of the operation, but my feeling was it was politically motivated and very poorly run.

The numbers of American guns in Mexico is badly skewed to make us look bad. We are only given access to a small portion of the guns taken each year to run numbers on.

Scattergun1187
11-04-2011, 18:06
Eric Holder is responsible for this fiasco and needs to resign along with the Commander in Thief.

captcurly
11-04-2011, 18:13
My take:

Fast and Furious was a political operation set up to "prove" the US was the source of Mexican gun violence. The plan was to then use this "evidence" as a basis for further gun control initiatives in the US. Holder knew. Obama knew.


Hunca, I am with you on this 100% and I am a Life Member of an FOP Lodge and I do not support the corrupt Holder. I would not trust Holder as far as I can spit. Just watch this clown's eye and body movements when being questioned. This guy cannot be trusted.

blueiron
11-04-2011, 18:17
Well, considering that the gun store on West Peoria Avenue was cajoled by BATFE into being one of the wholesalers to the BATFE circus, it isn't surprising. GPD should have been told early on, but it is probably a good thing that their aren't being implicated now for complicity.

One of the employees there was a Fed 1811 [now retired] that I worked with, the owner was promised the Moon for cooperation, and the entire store staff got screwed over with bad publicity/some protests/and plenty of demonization in the local press.

I stopped in to buy stuff and even I saw suspicious activities in the store and area. When I brought it to the store's attention, it was hinted to me to leave it alone :whistling:.

Any patrol officer would have noticed it and of course, the Feds don't like to share until it is almost over. :dunno:

ericridebike
11-04-2011, 18:35
Sam,

Sorry, I voted before I fully read your post & am a non-LEO. I picked the last option. I think the DOJ was fully aware and trying to further their anti-gun agenda.

Vigilant
11-04-2011, 18:50
Please disregard my vote as well. I didn't see your request until after I voted. I also took the last option.

Hack
11-04-2011, 21:34
I think it was a mixture of being started out as legitimate but got out of hand. When it wasn't stopped I blamed the top office holder in this, as it is his show, and his responsibility to keep up these things. I do believe it was politically motivated.

Angry Fist
11-04-2011, 21:37
I smell a rat... :whistling:

I just wonder who the biggest fish going down is.

Bren
11-05-2011, 07:28
For some bizzaro reason, the FOP has decided to offer a nod of support to Eric Holder, prior to his testimony on Fast and Furious. http://www.politico.com/news/stories/1111/67575.html


Must be because the DOJ has always been such a friend of the working cop.:upeyes:

My take:

Fast and Furious was a political operation set up to "prove" the US was the source of Mexican gun violence. The plan was to then use this "evidence" as a basis for further gun control initiatives in the US. Holder knew. Obama knew.

My take as well. This plan came from the top (White House) down, so that Obama would be able to overcome the current pro-gun feeling and pass some anti-gun legislation by 2012 (recognizing that his support came from mobilizing the far left and people who generally don't vote, and his administration has less to fear than congress from an pro-gun backlash).

steveksux
11-05-2011, 08:33
Anyone who believes that this operation was conducted without the knowledge of and explicit consent of BATFE, DOJ, Dep't of State, and the White House is either unknowing as to how government works or disingenuous.

A government LE agency cannot conduct operations into another sovereign nation that involve contraband into that nation without the consent of everyone in the entire cleared chain of command. To do so otherwise, would be inviting huge national and lack of control rogue agency repercussions otherwise. This does not include the international repercussions when the affected nation found out what was occurring. Either everyone knew or BATFE is out of control and a rogue agency. No one inside or outside of government is asking which.

What appears to be simple exportation of firearms by a U.S. gov't agency is the equivalent of the government of Mexico formally exporting illegal narcotics into the United States. The Mexicans do not want more firearms in their nation and they have strict gun control.

This is a calculated clandestine maneuver that has blown up and has repercussions on both sides of the border. Both Mexicans and U.S. citizens have been killed by a stupid operation that was dreamt up by moronic bureaucrats looking for an internal promotion.
Good posting, and the bolded part is particularly astute, I hadn't thought of it in those terms before, but you're absolutely right...

Randy

Vigilant
11-05-2011, 11:00
Correction: The Mexicans have strict gun control over their law abiding citizens, not their criminal element.

jethro21
11-05-2011, 11:57
Blueiron, I agree. I had been doing business with that store for years before I was LEO and they certainly got a short end of the deal. They participated, but I think they felt a little arm twisting as well.

As for our department and my group in particular- we are often asked to help out with various .gov agency's operations and are rarely if ever told anything beyond what we are doing that particular day. For our part, it appeared that we were just taking off members of a gun running organization to build a case, never knowing the ATF had been letting some guns back into Mexico.

Newcop761
11-05-2011, 12:27
As an FOP member I find it aggravating that the national FOP supports Eric Holder at all.

OXCOPS
11-05-2011, 12:33
I had to vote for the last option because I didn't see the "Holder is a *********" one.

blueiron
11-05-2011, 13:08
Blueiron, I agree. I had been doing business with that store for years before I was LEO and they certainly got a short end of the deal. They participated, but I think they felt a little arm twisting as well.

As for our department and my group in particular- we are often asked to help out with various .gov agency's operations and are rarely if ever told anything beyond what we are doing that particular day. For our part, it appeared that we were just taking off members of a gun running organization to build a case, never knowing the ATF had been letting some guns back into Mexico.

I know both the owner and the retired 1811 personally and professionally and they are both highly law abiding. Were their arms twisted? Yes, they were. The owner had significant reservations about selling firearms to sleazebags and was told by BATFE that it was in their "best interests" to sell them. We all know what that infers.

I have no problem with GPD. The Feds are infamous for wanting help, yet never telling anyone anything because of their paranoia for secrecy, fearing that the locals might be a leak or corrupt. I worked for another alphabet agency for a short time and it was considered very bad form to tell any other agency anything about what was going on. I can only speak for the agency I worked for, but I knew of more corruption there than any other place. The Feds are not sacrosanct.

BATFE's human surveillance was so poor, even I could see it when pulling in for a box of .22 ammo.

It is rather apparent that the S/A crew wanted to take these firearm strawmen down, but that the SACs, the Regional admins, and the D.C. REMFs had other grandiose plans. Now, we have a bunch of dead citizens on both sides of the border, dead cops, and a bunch of bureaucrat REMF incompetents running to cover their careers like cockroaches exposed to the light of day.

Any C/T regular can solve this equation: Holder lied - Terry died.

South Fla
11-05-2011, 19:22
As an FOP member I find it aggravating that the national FOP supports Eric Holder at all.

...as posted in another thread....

I have been an FOP member for 27 years, served on the local Executive Board and at the State level.

In this instance with the backing of Holder in the F&F case, they do not speak for me.