Can a Remington 11-87 serve as a HD shotty? [Archive] - Glock Talk

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faawrenchbndr
11-04-2011, 17:05
My first dabble into auto loaders.
Can an 11-87 SuperMag be outfitted for home defense?
Are there shorter barrels available?

aippi
11-04-2011, 17:37
Yes, but I would not recommend it. I have an 11-87P and love shooting it but it lives in my safe and I would not count on it in a fight.

#5xbr
11-04-2011, 18:41
please let it be known that aippi does have a dog in the fight as he does mods on pumps. just sayin.

Buffering
11-04-2011, 18:50
Can an 11-87 SuperMag be used for HD? Sure it can.

You also could use an M1 Abrams, something from the Air Force or something belt fed. Maybe some hand grenades too. See my point?

aippi
11-04-2011, 19:49
#bxbr - let it be known you should know what you are talking about before posting and I do. I am factory certified on the 11-87P and rebuild them for Law Enforcement Departments and others. I know you were not sugesting I don't know this weapon. I have rebuilt dozens of them. I own one and always will.

So, yes I am not only qualified to post on this topic, but my post is to be considered a professional opinion on the question posted.

I do not sell them as they are not fighting shotguns. The below shows I am qualified to comment on this post.

220166

jhooten
11-04-2011, 20:49
Yes, but I would not recommend it. I have an 11-87P and love shooting it but it lives in my safe and I would not count on it in a fight.

If I may ask, why not?

aippi
11-04-2011, 21:33
With short barrels they only cycle with heavy loads as the gas orifice size is determined by the length of the barrel and the intended load the weapon is designed to fire. So practice is expensive since you are shooting buck shot and slugs.

They have to fired from a solid shoulder and solid stance. If any inertia is wasted the action spring in the stock will not compress fully and will not have enough energy to pick up the next round and return to battery (like limp wristing a 1911), so these weapons can not be fired from the hip or say fired over top of or around cover. Since you can't be assured a solid shoulder and stance in a fight you may get one shot off and that is it.

Because of the above issues they can not be relied upon to provide fire while in movement from cover to cover or if evactuating an area.

If there is going to be a issue with this weapon it will happen. There is no warning and you are simply holding a weapon that will not fire.

Other semi-autos do not have the issues that gas operated ones like the 11-87 have, however they have their own set of issues.

B Coyote
11-05-2011, 02:36
I'll second aippi's post. My 11-87P has been problematic at best. I do not fully trust it.

With full power buck/slug, it does okay when clean. With anything else it bobbles. I wish I'd bought a Benelli, and I may trade it on a FN.

My 870 I trust without a doubt.

bc

jhooten
11-05-2011, 09:33
On the light load practice issue, the agencies I have worked for were all train with duty ammo. Don't remember if I ever tried light loads in my well used 11-87P (now lost to the fire).

The only issue I remember having with it was when the side saddle screws were over tightened. I know some of you are not big fans of them. They are still the best way I know to make sure to have slugs with the gun when I run out the door in the middle of the night. I will have some things to try if I decide to replace it, light loads, hip shooting, and such.

AngelDeville
11-05-2011, 12:39
my 18.5" 1100 works just fine with 2 3/4" buck and slugs.

boomhower
11-06-2011, 12:40
We currently carry 11-87's as duty rifles. Sometime in the near future when the budget works out we are going back to 870's for reliability reasons. Take that for what it's worth.

aippi
11-06-2011, 14:03
I took some in from Shoshoni Pd in NV and they now carry my 870's. If you are a small Department I would be open to this as the 11-87P is a good pick for some forms of shooting, just not fighting.

ScrappyDoo
11-06-2011, 17:40
So my Dad is no gunsmith nor expert opinion on shotguns - but he's a pretty famous LEO that was recognized as an expert in many fields by the courts over the 34 years f his career. Absolutely has nothing on the guy with company dedicated to selling Remington pump shotguns for " fighting " etc but he is seriously considering an 11-87P for his own personal protection shotgun .... That doesn't mean he's got that lite picture showing he's a Remington shotgun expert but - its pretty much a good opinion in our city.

owl6roll
11-06-2011, 19:29
My 11-87P, works fine! I've put quite a few rounds of 71/2 through it and never a problem. My department also uses the 11-87P.

RetDet
11-06-2011, 20:02
My experience is different from what's being reported. My 11-87 Vang Comp has never failed me. On the other hand, every time I've seen a breakinelli in competition, it's lived up to it's name. I would never consider one for any sort of defensive mission unless I needed a very heavy expensive club.

aippi
11-06-2011, 20:29
Being that some people don't an 11-87P from an 1100 tactical I question anyone who states ?their? 11-87P cycles target loads like 7 1/2"s. They either have a different weapon, a different barrel or don't know what they have.

The 18.5" barrels on the P models are designed for heavy loads such as buck shot and slugs. The size of the gas orifices are determend by the intended load and the length of the barrel. Thus, the P model will not cycle the light loads unless you either change barrels or modify the gas orifices. These modifications can damage the weapon and are not recommend by Remington.

One guy on one of these blogs even claimed his 11-87P cycles Universal Value Pack target loads from Wal-mart.

So, if you have an 11-87P that is somehow able to do what the thousands of others can not then please post a video of it doing these wonderfull things as we would like to see it.

Also, all the Remington gas operated shotguns have the same issues when not fired from a solid shoulder. You can prove this to yourself by simply trying to hip fire yours.

The men who shared these facts about these weapons with me were instructors at the factory with over 45 years each working and teaching there. I have verified everything I learned there and only post facts about these weapons. I am amazed how people can deny facts about these weapons with no more knowledge then the have read from others on these types of blogs. Lyle and Fred have retired now and I imagine if they are bored and want to laugh thier ass off they simply go to one of these blogs and read some of mess posted on here about Remington shotguns. Or maybe you guys know more then they do and they just BS'd 45+ plus years away up there at Illion. And then have been taking my money all these times for me to sit there and listen to them BS me. I should have saved those thousands of dollars and just came here to learn about the 11-87.

method
11-06-2011, 21:19
If it's a fighting shotgun, though, does it really matter if it'll cycle birdshot? My S12 can be counted on to hang up occasionally on cheap bulk shells. Big deal. It's dead reliable with buck and slug, and that's all that really matters.

aippi
11-06-2011, 22:07
Not the point Method. It will not efffectively cycle slugs or buckshot unless fired from a solid shoulder. You don't get that option in a fight.

Way back when before the 11-87's were even on the drawing boards we received the first "Side Winders", converted 1100 all tricked out. Some no load bean counter clown in Tallahassee bought them for the Teams. Worked great from a solid shoulder, however, we had a drill where we would hold the weapon out from our body and fire around a barricade or simluate cover fire down and ally or hall way. You got one shot and that was it as they would not cycle the next round. Those P.O.S. weapons went back to the Armory and we got our 870's back and used them for the 20 years of my career.

I have given the OP a professional answer on his question. He is better off with a non gas operated shotgun if he has to have a semi-auto and much better off with a pump. To continue to post on this is of no value as I have stated the facts about this weapon and they will not change no matter what these other guys post in with. Facts are Facts.

Andrewsky
11-07-2011, 22:39
My dad had a Benelli SBE that would randomly malfunction with full power 3" shells even though it was perfectly clean and oiled. Therefore I'm skeptical of the aura around Benellis in this forum and of automatic shotguns in general.

ArmoryDoc
11-08-2011, 08:09
I gotta side with aippi on the auto thing. The auto's belong in the field hunting Grouse and Pheasant. If you want a defense gun, get a pump. The 870 is king.

RetDet
11-08-2011, 10:20
With all that's been said, I have three Vang Comps now. Two 870's and one 11-87. My 11-87 works just fine, but then I don't hunt and don't care whether it works with bird shot or not. In fact, I don't think I own any. I practice with what I shoot.

I had the privilege of being a police officer and hunting people for 30 years. Quail don't mean much to me.

Buffering
11-08-2011, 13:15
I had the privilege of ... hunting people for 30 years.

What do they taste like? Chicken? :eat:

RetDet
11-08-2011, 14:25
I'll assume that's a feeble attempt at being funny. Otherwise, I'd have to say that I'd leave that sort of behavior to people like you.

And there are just too many ways to use a straight line like that. I'd get in trouble with the MODERATORS, the fearsome beasties that they are.

Buffering
11-08-2011, 14:47
I'll assume that's a feeble attempt at being funny. Otherwise, I'd have to say that I'd leave that sort of behavior to people like you.

And there are just too many ways to use a straight line like that. I'd get in trouble with the MODERATORS, the fearsome beasties that they are.

I'm not a professional and haven't had formal training so most of my humor attempts are indeed feeble. :supergrin:

RetDet
11-08-2011, 15:06
But we do, on rare occasions, generate a laugh or two, right? And that makes it worthwhile.

9mmdude
11-08-2011, 16:21
please let it be known that aippi does have a dog in the fight as he does mods on pumps. just sayin.

Aippi's dog in the fight is 100% genuine. His info and support to glocktalk and other web sites is always accurate and with the shooter in mind. I appreciate all of his information and support. He doesn't try to steer you toward his business and he will work to save you money if he can.

If you do need any of his products his prices are great and customer service is top notch.

owl6roll
11-12-2011, 06:38
Well, I know what I have and my department issue round in the Federal Flight controlled stuff, I think it's reduced, but it freaking works! I'll be shooting a shotgun/pistol match with my 11-87P, and 7/12 shot.

myanof
11-13-2011, 20:56
With short barrels they only cycle with heavy loads as the gas orifice size is determined by the length of the barrel and the intended load the weapon is designed to fire. So practice is expensive since you are shooting buck shot and slugs.

I am surprised as a trained Remington armor you would make this statement. Although some shotguns are set up to only shoot high power shells, if you install a short factory Remington barrel with adjusted gas ports they work fine with all shells including low base dove loads from Walmart. I discussed this issue with Remington, and bought one of their 18 1/2 in factory barrels for my Model 1100 which I have thoroughly tested with all shells and it shoots fine. I have had one FTF since 1967 with this gun, and that was due to a dirty gas port. I see no reason why an 11-87 would be any different than an 1100.

http://i839.photobucket.com/albums/zz316/myanof/DSCN0995.jpg

aippi
11-13-2011, 21:42
The 11-87 is not an 1100. I am surprised you are missing the point here. Also, they did not make the 18.5" barrels in back then and you bought that barrel rather recently and the gas orifices are not the same size as the 11-87 short barrels. The 1100 is a sporting shotgun made to fire those loads. Why are you comparing it to anything in this Post? The OP is wanting to use an 11-87 for

One more time. The only short barrels for the 11-87 are the 11-87P barrels and once you put these on your weapon it becomes and a quazi 11-87P and has issues with light loads. ALSO FOR SOME OF YOU WHO DON'T KNOW WHAT IS GOING ON INSIDE THESE WEAPONS. The action spring has to fully compress to return the breech bolt back to pick up the next shell and lock into battery. That is not going to happen unless you fire this weapon (11-87 or 1100) from a solid shoulder. Like limp wristing a 1911. this is because the movement of the weapon to the rear waste the inertia that should be going into the spring. I can't explain this any better so someone else jump in and help me.

This is an issue with most gas operated semi-auto shotguns especially the 1100 and 11-87.

I also doubt anyone is shooting 7 1/2 shot in this 11-87P unless it has been modified and that is not smart to do. Would love a video of that to be posted on this site. Your unmodified 11-87P cycling low recoil buckshot without issue. Oh, and the 7 /12' Loads also.

myanof
11-14-2011, 10:14
I assumed you could buy a factory short barrel for the 11-87 Super Mag, just like you can for an 1100. Sorry if I was mistaken.

As far as the inertia failure issue, that's probably true with any semi auto I believe. Once again, only one FTF since 1967 gives me pretty good conficence.

Sorry if I offended.

fpgeek
11-16-2011, 23:40
My first dabble into auto loaders.
Can an 11-87 SuperMag be outfitted for home defense?
Are there shorter barrels available?

Our department used to have two 11-87 shotguns, but after they broke in qualification we replaced them with Remington 870s from the GSA. The 870 is now the only shotgun we use.

moeman
11-19-2011, 17:16
I'll assume that's a feeble attempt at being funny. Otherwise, I'd have to say that I'd leave that sort of behavior to people like you.

And there are just too many ways to use a straight line like that. I'd get in trouble with the MODERATORS, the fearsome beasties that they are.

That was a funny retort to the typo .Please head for preventative maintenance on your sense of humor...

AND

Report him to the moderators? There are outpatient programs that along w/ meds that can help "hall-monitor" syndrome..

.

moeman
11-19-2011, 17:20
The 11-87 is not an 1100. I am surprised you are missing the point here. Also, they did not make the 18.5" barrels in back then and you bought that barrel rather recently and the gas orifices are not the same size as the 11-87 short barrels. The 1100 is a sporting shotgun made to fire those loads. Why are you comparing it to anything in this Post? The OP is wanting to use an 11-87 for

One more time. The only short barrels for the 11-87 are the 11-87P barrels and once you put these on your weapon it becomes and a quazi 11-87P and has issues with light loads. ALSO FOR SOME OF YOU WHO DON'T KNOW WHAT IS GOING ON INSIDE THESE WEAPONS. The action spring has to fully compress to return the breech bolt back to pick up the next shell and lock into battery. That is not going to happen unless you fire this weapon (11-87 or 1100) from a solid shoulder. Like limp wristing a 1911. this is because the movement of the weapon to the rear waste the inertia that should be going into the spring. I can't explain this any better so someone else jump in and help me.

This is an issue with most gas operated semi-auto shotguns especially the 1100 and 11-87.

I also doubt anyone is shooting 7 1/2 shot in this 11-87P unless it has been modified and that is not smart to do. Would love a video of that to be posted on this site. Your unmodified 11-87P cycling low recoil buckshot without issue. Oh, and the 7 /12' Loads also.

Good info!

I own a 11-87 that I use for clays and hunting that is 100%... So I thought the 11-87P would be just as good... guess not.

BTW: I have noticed that shotguns with inertia systems can really get finanacy when shooters hang lights and other crap on them... And when shot off of the shoulder as you descibed above. Seen that too?

So overall, for a semi-auto which one or two do you like?

aippi
11-20-2011, 01:55
None for fighting. No need for them for that since there are 870's, 500's, 590, 1200, 1300 and many more pump guns that you can count on to save your A double S in a fight.

I have an 1100 for sport shooting and an 11-87P for fun shooting.

Deployment Solu
11-20-2011, 08:12
Appi, Great info and you are correct. I am also a Remington armorer for over 25 years (700, 870, 1100, 11-87). Would not opening the gas port on the 11-87Ps achieve the desired results? I know that most people could not do that without a gunsmith, but there are those who could do it or have it done. I have turned many 1100s into "HD" shotguns. I have owned several 11-87s (nonP models) and not had any reliability issues, although we did not use low powered shells, just duty ammo for training.

I agree with you statements pertaining to low powered ammo and non-solid platform operation of the weapon. Just my thoughts on opening the gas port to allow additional gas to operate the weapon, there fore increasing reliability.

josp
09-19-2012, 12:33
I did a lot of searching on this subject when I bought an 11-87P.
After reading all I could find I felt I might have made a mistake.
Well, I don't know how to post videos here, but I just ran a box (25 rounds) of Remington 7 1/2 dove loads, 3/4 ounce of shot, through mine without a hiccup. Half off my shoulder, and half held at my him with NO support behind the buttstock.
Ran anpother box of the same stuff through two buddies identical 11-87P's.
Cleaned it up, and reloaded it with the full power buckshot loads. Ready for work.

aippi
09-19-2012, 14:24
josp- would love to see your 11-87P with stock barrel and measure the gas ports to ensure they have not been altered. I would also check the barrel seal to ensure it is not altered. If none of the conditions above exsist I would then take it to Illion as those guys would love to see why your 11-87 Police with a stock barrel that has not been altered will do what no others will.

Mine is stock and is in perfect operational condition. It should be as I am Factory Certified to repair the 11-87P for LE Agencies. I have worked on dozens of these weapons including mine, yet mine nor any other 11-87P with a factory Police barrel will do what yours does. I suspect either you don't have an 11-87P, you have an 11-87P with a Sporting barrel, you have an 11-87P that has bored out gas ports, you have doubled the gas seal or there is something else up here. Or you have a one of kind 11-87P.

I am also amazed that people buy the factory barrel which is designed for heavy loads and with the optimal gas orifice size and then Bubba it up to shoot light loads. Once They do that the weapon will still work with heavy loads but they now have to much gas pushing the action back as they opened up the gas ports. Do these guys know more then the men who designed these weapon for the specific use they are built to perform? NO, they do not. Do these guys even understand why the gas orifices are that size? No they do not. Do these guys even know the damage they are doing to their weapon now that they are shooting those heavy loads through bored out gas orifices? No they do not.

josp
09-19-2012, 19:30
Aippi - You may try my 11-87P anytime you find yourself in Pa. The two other 11-87P's I shot today also worked with the light loads without issue.
All three are factory stock. Just the way the Pennsylvania State Police purchased them so many years ago.

I also know you probably won't believe me, and that's fine.

Oh, and I am also a Department firearms instructor, Remington armorer, and Glock armorer too.

aippi
09-19-2012, 21:43
Since you are also a Remington LE Armorer I believe you Jos. You should advise the Instructors at Ilion to stop giving false information in class. You should also bring yours next recertification and let them fire it so they will have to explain why mine and all the ones I work on will not. Also, Shoshone PD in Wy could not get thier Factory New 11-87P's to even cycle low recoil 00 and traded them in and now carry AI&P Tactical 870's. That Chief will be very upset when he finds out he got dud weapons and all these 11-87P's owned by forum members cycle everything.

josp
09-20-2012, 04:49
Someone sounds like they got their feelings hurt.:crying:

My invitation to meet and shoot my working 11-87P stands.

I would not presume to know more than the factory instructors, and have never said as much. I simply told the OP that mine, and the three other factory standard 11-87P's will work using a reduced load.

I was unable to find a listing for a Shoshone Police in Wyoming. There is a Shoshone County Sheriff in Idaho though? Of course earlier in this thread you said it was in Nevada??
I wouldn't know why the Chief there would sell you new weapons at a loss instead of returning them to the factory to get them working right.
I also don't understand why you would sell a weapon you don't believe in. But I'm not in the business of selling guns either.

To the OP: my home is well protected with my choice. My suggestion is to borrow and shoot as many as you can, then decide for yourself. Good Luck!

thesilverbullet
11-04-2012, 19:37
josp - i'm with u (based on my 1100 experince) i know most of issue in this thread is based on bird loads - how is yours with SD loads..

for the dealers - i was considaring a 11-87p for sd - never had an issue with a 1100 mostly on bird loads. is the 11-87 with a short barrel more reliable than the 14/18" police models or all have the same issue with SD loads? 11-87p 14" vs 18"?

is there such a thing as a reliable SD simi-auto shotgun?

fyi - i would not recommend using a winchester 1200 3" mag pump for SD, mine will sometimes jam because the cut off lets two shells out into the carrier when cycling the slider back. or maybe mine just sucks... it's only 30+ yrs old...

thesilverbullet
11-04-2012, 19:55
let me get this right - the 11-87p is rock solid reliable if held properly (good shoulder support)????

and is a problem only when tring to shot one handed movie style???????????????

and dont buy glock for SD if u plan on limp wristing it????

thesilverbullet
11-04-2012, 20:21
I am surprised as a trained Remington armor you would make this statement. Although some shotguns are set up to only shoot high power shells, if you install a short factory Remington barrel with adjusted gas ports they work fine with all shells including low base dove loads from Walmart. I discussed this issue with Remington, and bought one of their 18 1/2 in factory barrels for my Model 1100 which I have thoroughly tested with all shells and it shoots fine. I have had one FTF since 1967 with this gun, and that was due to a dirty gas port. I see no reason why an 11-87 would be any different than an 1100.

http://i839.photobucket.com/albums/zz316/myanof/DSCN0995.jpg


nice setup - exactly what i was thinking for SD shotgun with a 11-87p 18"

fyi - your setup looks better than the 11-87p

josp
11-04-2012, 20:21
SilverBullet,
My 11-87P runs great on cheap and the newer flute control tactical buck loads.
Mind also functions fine held out to the side if my hip, though I never plan on using it that way.

thesilverbullet
11-05-2012, 18:37
josp, thanks for the info - sounds like it will do what i need and i dont do the hip deal either...

mjkeat
11-07-2012, 21:51
Someone sounds like they got their feelings hurt.:crying:

My invitation to meet and shoot my working 11-87P stands.

I would not presume to know more than the factory instructors, and have never said as much. I simply told the OP that mine, and the three other factory standard 11-87P's will work using a reduced load.

I was unable to find a listing for a Shoshone Police in Wyoming. There is a Shoshone County Sheriff in Idaho though? Of course earlier in this thread you said it was in Nevada??
I wouldn't know why the Chief there would sell you new weapons at a loss instead of returning them to the factory to get them working right.
I also don't understand why you would sell a weapon you don't believe in. But I'm not in the business of selling guns either.

To the OP: my home is well protected with my choice. My suggestion is to borrow and shoot as many as you can, then decide for yourself. Good Luck!

^ Awesome!

____________

To aippi,

What is the difference b/w the 1100 and the 11-87?

esminbritt
11-13-2012, 06:52
Not the point Method. It will not efffectively cycle slugs or buckshot unless fired from a solid shoulder. You don't get that option in a fight.

Way back when before the 11-87's were even on the drawing boards we received the first "Side Winders", converted 1100 all tricked out. Some no load bean counter clown in Tallahassee bought them for the Teams. Worked great from a solid shoulder, however, we had a drill where we would hold the weapon out from our body and fire around a barricade or simluate cover fire down and ally or hall way. You got one shot and that was it as they would not cycle the next round. Those P.O.S. weapons went back to the Armory and we got our 870's back and used them for the 20 years of my career.

I have given the OP a professional answer on his question. He is better off with a non gas operated shotgun if he has to have a semi-auto and much better off with a pump. To continue to post on this is of no value as I have stated the facts about this weapon and they will not change no matter what these other guys post in with. Facts are Facts.

I agree, for what it's worth. I am far from an expert. But don't see much need for a semi-auto shotgun. If someone wants one, by all means, have at it. But when I think of semi autos, I think Bang-Bang-Bang. 9 MM, .45, .308. Bang-Bang. Fast. When I think of a 12 gauge, I think "chick-chick..BOOM". Maybe I'm just old-fashioned. 12 gauge shells just seem to be a lot to ask a semi auto system to cycle. I know there are good semi auto shotguns out there, but I'm not tempted. I have a Rem 700 SS Milspec R5 in .308 for long range, a .308 Saiga and a Rem 870 Marine Magnum for intermediate, a G17 for close quarters. My next toy will be a 50 BMG bolt gun to poke through walls. Just my 2