Noob Question - 9mm size? [Archive] - Glock Talk

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sauce33
11-04-2011, 17:33
I was reading through the Lyman manual and it shows the overall size (length) of the bullet. I measured some factory 115gr ammo just to test the digital caliper I was using and I noticed the length was shorter than what Lyman recommended (1.169). I also read that you need to be careful not to set the bullet to deep or lower than the recommended length or else the pressures will be to high. The caliper is calibrated correctly. What am I missing?

Thank you,

sauce

XDRoX
11-04-2011, 17:39
Longer round means lower pressure. If you're a newb, then lower pressures are a good thing. Best advice is just to load as long as possible that will function in your gun. I load my 9mm round nose to 1.140". This functions just fine in all 8 of my 9mm's.

sauce33
11-04-2011, 17:53
Longer round means lower pressure. If you're a newb, then lower pressures are a good thing. Best advice is just to load as long as possible that will function in your gun. I load my 9mm round nose to 1.140". This functions just fine in all 8 of my 9mm's.


I think that is what the factory round measured. So that your overall length of 1.140 is shorter than the recommended 1.169 in the Lyman book. Your round has more pressure correct?

I quote... "With any handgun cartridge it is important not to seat bullets to a shorter length than specified in the data" Aren't you breaking this rule or am I missing something?

Fwdftw
11-04-2011, 18:02
Depending on powder charge really

sauce33
11-04-2011, 18:06
Depending on powder charge really


I'm going to use WIN 231

Colorado4Wheel
11-04-2011, 18:16
There are two measurements in the book. Well, the one you mention and then the one listed for each bullet/load. The 1.169 is the MAX OAL for the cartridge. It is not specific to any load data. Each separate bullet/load section has a OAL listed for that load. It is the length they tested the load at. It is not specific to your barrel or you. If you go shorter you will have more pressure, if you go longer you will have less.
Determining OAL is specific to your barrel. This thread will help you understand how to find max OAL for your barrel and bullet. You seldom need to load to max length.

http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1375623

sauce33
11-04-2011, 18:33
There are two measurements in the book. Well, the one you mention and then the one listed for each bullet/load. The 1.169 is the MAX OAL for the cartridge. It is not specific to any load data. Each separate bullet/load section has a OAL listed for that load. It is the length they tested the load at. It is not specific to your barrel or you. If you go shorter you will have more pressure, if you go longer you will have less.
Determining OAL is specific to your barrel. This thread will help you understand how to find max OAL for your barrel and bullet. You seldom need to load to max length.

http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1375623


I get it now. Thank you.

Zombie Steve
11-04-2011, 20:51
There are two measurements in the book. Well, the one you mention and then the one listed for each bullet/load. The 1.169 is the MAX OAL for the cartridge. It is not specific to any load data. Each separate bullet/load section has a OAL listed for that load. It is the length they tested the load at. It is not specific to your barrel or you. If you go shorter you will have more pressure, if you go longer you will have less.
Determining OAL is specific to your barrel. This thread will help you understand how to find max OAL for your barrel and bullet. You seldom need to load to max length.

http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1375623

http://i183.photobucket.com/albums/x214/sbecht/IMG-20111029-00354.jpg

F106 Fan
11-04-2011, 23:44
There are Standards!

SAMMI is the industry standard (also an ANSI standard) and it specifies things like maximum and minimum OAL.

http://www.saami.org/specifications_and_information/publications/download/205.pdf

You will see on page 21 (page 29 of the .pdf) that the minimum OAL is 1.000" and the maximum is 1.169". So Lyman was just stating the maximum OAL according to the standards.

Each load that is published will also have an assembled length that should result in acceptable pressures for the various powders and charges. These are the numbers you want to consider so long as they are within the minimum and maximum of the standards.

Not only does the 9mm cartridge have to fit the chamber and comply with the loading data but it also has to fit the magazine and cycle through the gun.

Most sources publish a minimum and maximum charge for a given bullet and a particular powder. It is wise to start at the minimum and work up. The Lyman manual should tell you how to detect overpressure (things like difficult extraction, flattened primers, etc) and you should check for these things as you increase the load.

Richard

sauce33
11-05-2011, 06:42
There are Standards!

SAMMI is the industry standard (also an ANSI standard) and it specifies things like maximum and minimum OAL.

http://www.saami.org/specifications_and_information/publications/download/205.pdf

You will see on page 21 (page 29 of the .pdf) that the minimum OAL is 1.000" and the maximum is 1.169". So Lyman was just stating the maximum OAL according to the standards.

Each load that is published will also have an assembled length that should result in acceptable pressures for the various powders and charges. These are the numbers you want to consider so long as they are within the minimum and maximum of the standards.

Not only does the 9mm cartridge have to fit the chamber and comply with the loading data but it also has to fit the magazine and cycle through the gun.

Most sources publish a minimum and maximum charge for a given bullet and a particular powder. It is wise to start at the minimum and work up. The Lyman manual should tell you how to detect overpressure (things like difficult extraction, flattened primers, etc) and you should check for these things as you increase the load.

Richard

Richard,

Thanks for the info. Another question. Lyman does not post specs for 115gr FMJ round nose (Using Delta Precision). It does post 115gr TMJ specs. Can I use the lowest powder charge on the TMJ spec?

PCJim
11-05-2011, 07:58
Sauce, yes you can use the TMJ data for the PD FMJ. Similar construction/profile/weight allows for relatively interchangable data. Start working up your loads with the suggested starting load, make five or so rounds of each powder charge as you work up looking for pressure signs. Most semiauto pistols will have reliable cycling at a mid level charge.

sauce33
11-05-2011, 08:18
Sauce, yes you can use the TMJ data for the PD FMJ. Similar construction/profile/weight allows for relatively interchangable data. Start working up your loads with the suggested starting load, make five or so rounds of each powder charge as you work up looking for pressure signs. Most semiauto pistols will have reliable cycling at a mid level charge.


Thank you

PCJim
11-05-2011, 12:35
I should have mentioned that the TMJ bullet Lyman refers to may have been an electroplated bullet. That said, I have purchased bullets that appeared to have a gas check beneath the copper jacket of a modified FMJ style profile, giving a TMJ profile.

Lyman separately lists data for full lead bullets. They will have a decreased powder charge as compared to a jacketed bullet. Electroplated bullets are oftentimes identified as CMJ or TMJ, and will use lead reloading data.

Colorado4Wheel
11-05-2011, 12:56
I should have mentioned that the TMJ bullet Lyman refers to may have been an electroplated bullet. That said, I have purchased bullets that appeared to have a gas check beneath the copper jacket of a modified FMJ style profile, giving a TMJ profile.

Lyman separately lists data for full lead bullets. They will have a decreased powder charge as compared to a jacketed bullet. Electroplated bullets are oftentimes identified as CMJ or TMJ, and will use lead reloading data.

Montana Gold's CMJ's are actually FMJ with the disc as you describe.

F106 Fan
11-05-2011, 18:12
Richard,

Thanks for the info. Another question. Lyman does not post specs for 115gr FMJ round nose (Using Delta Precision). It does post 115gr TMJ specs. Can I use the lowest powder charge on the TMJ spec?

But Hornady does!

You didn't expect to just buy one reloading manual, did you? In addition to Lyman's (which I don't use much), I have Sierra Edition V, Speer #14, Speer #9 (some times the old ways are best) and Ken Water's Pet Loads plus whatever data I can get from the powder manufacturers.

And still it isn't enough...

Richard

PCJim
11-05-2011, 19:27
C4W, it was probably their bullet that I was thinking of.

sauce33
11-06-2011, 11:55
I'm pretty overwhelmed with all the Abbreviations and information that does not make sense in regards to bullets types and weights.


In the Lyman book it says the MAX overall length (OAL) for the 9mm 115gr bullet is 1.090. This does not make any sense to me. I measured a Lawman 115 FMJ and it is over the max in the Lyman book. 1.090 is a very “stubby” looking 9mm bullet LOL. Any guidance would be greatly appreciated.


Also the length for a 115gr FMJ or JHP should have the same overall length correct?


Thank you,


http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b242/sauce33/12.jpg

Colorado4Wheel
11-06-2011, 12:01
The Lyman book says the OAL for a 115gr JHP is 1.090. It does not say that is the MAX oal. Just that is what they tested it at.
JHP and FMJ do not get loaded to the same length.

sauce33
11-06-2011, 16:46
The Lyman book says the OAL for a 115gr JHP is 1.090. It does not say that is the MAX oal. Just that is what they tested it at.
JHP and FMJ do not get loaded to the same length.


Thanks

Fastbear
11-06-2011, 16:58
Have new boxes of Remington 115gr.HP that measure 1.100 and a new box of Winchester 115 FMJ that measure 1.163. So somewhere between 1.100 and 1.169 should keep most of our guns happy with the correct loads for the particular bullet you want to use. I load 115 HPs to 1.163, work fine.

sauce33
11-06-2011, 17:03
Have new boxes of Remington 115gr.HP that measure 1.100 and a new box of Winchester 115 FMJ that measure 1.163. So somewhere between 1.100 and 1.169 should keep most of our guns happy with the correct loads for the particular bullet you want to use. I load 115 HPs to 1.163, work fine.

Thanks

What powder and bullet do you use to reload 9mm?

Colorado4Wheel
11-06-2011, 17:25
Loading JHP that long can be a issue. You want enough bullet in the case to properly hold it in place. You also need to be careful that the bullet doesn't hit the rifling on the barrel. Read that link to the other thread about how to problem solve issues. It will tell you how to tell if your OAL is too long for your barrel. That is important. I load all my FMJ to 1.130 and I load my JHP a little shorter but I make sure the bullet doesn't hit the rifling on the barrel. My 147gr Lead have to be at 1.080 or they hit. It's common to load lead pretty short for this very reason. My point is you need to not just grab some number from someone's post. You need to follow sound reasoning for why you do what you do. It would probably be wiser to follow the load manual suggestion and try and see if your bullet and barrel would let you load the JHP about .010" longer. That gives you a cushion but doesn't take you that far off the path of your load data.

sauce33
11-06-2011, 17:30
Loading JHP that long can be a issue. You want enough bullet in the case to properly hold it in place. You also need to be careful that the bullet doesn't hit the rifling on the barrel. Read that link to the other thread about how to problem solve issues. It will tell you how to tell if your OAL is too long for your barrel. That is important. I load all my FMJ to 1.130 and I load my JHP a little shorter but I make sure the bullet doesn't hit the rifling on the barrel. My 147gr Lead have to be at 1.080 or they hit. It's common to load lead pretty short for this very reason. My point is you need to not just grab some number from someone's post. You need to follow sound reasoning for why you do what you do. It would probably be wiser to follow the load manual suggestion and try and see if your bullet and barrel would let you load the JHP about .010" longer. That gives you a cushion but doesn't take you that far off the path of your load data.

What happens if the bullet touches the rifling?

Colorado4Wheel
11-06-2011, 17:32
It gets jammed in the gun. Can be really hard to get it back out if you don't know how.

GioaJack
11-06-2011, 17:38
It gets jammed in the gun. Can be really hard to get it back out if you don't know how.


CLEARING A STUCK BULLET

Read carefully as the instructions are both intricate and complex.

POKE IT OUT WITH A STICK

You're welcome.


Jack

PCJim
11-06-2011, 19:04
What happens if the bullet touches the rifling?

While it may result in a bullet stuck in the barrel, more importantly it increases the pressure developed in the load.

Think of it this way... Consider this scenario. You have a wheelbarrow full of dirt and you place a 2x4 up against the wheel. How much effort is required to push the wheelbarrow forward over the 2x4? (no, you cannot pull it back and get a running start.)

Now, move the wheelbarrow back 6" so that you do get a running start. Which is easier, which requires the least amount of force?

The above concept applies to a bullet. If the bullet has engaged the leade / rifling in a barrel, it requires a lot more force, ie pressure, to move it forward. This extra pressure can easily exceed safe limits when you are loading to the upper side of published charge levels.

Colorado4Wheel
11-06-2011, 19:15
CLEARING A STUCK BULLET

Read carefully as the instructions are both intricate and complex.

POKE IT OUT WITH A STICK

You're welcome.


Jack

I was referring to the bullet and case getting stuck in the chamber. Then the slide is locked forward and you can't rack the slide. You have to grab the slide and whack the grip with your other hand. Seems to happen a lot at matches.

sauce33
11-07-2011, 18:41
While it may result in a bullet stuck in the barrel, more importantly it increases the pressure developed in the load.

Think of it this way... Consider this scenario. You have a wheelbarrow full of dirt and you place a 2x4 up against the wheel. How much effort is required to push the wheelbarrow forward over the 2x4? (no, you cannot pull it back and get a running start.)

Now, move the wheelbarrow back 6" so that you do get a running start. Which is easier, which requires the least amount of force?

The above concept applies to a bullet. If the bullet has engaged the leade / rifling in a barrel, it requires a lot more force, ie pressure, to move it forward. This extra pressure can easily exceed safe limits when you are loading to the upper side of published charge levels.

That makes sense. I made some dummy rounds (No Primers/powder) and even on a OAL of 1.16 did not touch the rifling. It dropped free in and out of the barrel. I picked up the Speer manual which has a 115 FMJ spec. I will use that data with the Precision Delta 115 FMJ. I will also us it with the Plated Barrys 115gr FMJ.

Thanks for the help.