AD, man dies in family car. [Archive] - Glock Talk

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ithaca_deerslayer
11-14-2011, 15:29
http://www.wtvr.com/news/wtvr-father-kills-self-grocery-store-20111114,0,314000.story

Guy sitting in car with kids, waiting for wife to go to store. He somehow shoots himself in the hip, and dies.

Says he was unbucking seatbelt, and somehow fired his Glock .40.

No details on how it was carried, if in holster, or in pocket, or in hand, or what.

Sad, but also what the heck happened?

LongGoneDays
11-14-2011, 18:05
We know less than they do. Sounds like he had a case of the stupids.

IndyGunFreak
11-14-2011, 19:14
Very very sad. The article says he carried it "loose in his pocket"... When are people going to learn, that a loaded firearm, is not like your wallet or car keys.

debbert
11-14-2011, 19:16
Stupid is as stupid does.

Perfect nominee for the Darwin Award.

slickt0mmy
11-14-2011, 20:09
Sounds like an ND to me, not an AD. The man wasn't responsible in handling his firearm and he paid the price. It's very tragic.

Sounds strange, dying from a shot to the hip, but it likely cut through his femoral artery.

K1tt3n5
11-14-2011, 20:14
It's terrible that the kids had to watch their father die. Absolutely horrific. RIP.

gunowner1
11-14-2011, 20:14
You have got to hate hearing about incidents like this happening. Even a cheap Uncle Mikes may have prevented this.

cowboy1964
11-14-2011, 21:05
Sounds like jacket pocket carry if shot in the hip.

Very sad.

packsaddle
11-14-2011, 22:02
It's terrible that the kids had to watch their father die. Absolutely horrific. RIP.

a very respectful comment.

+1

jellis11
11-14-2011, 22:26
Very sad.

Good holster ftw. I decided to raise the ride hight of mine the other day after the pictures of the guy that shot himself in the leg a week or so ago came around.

JuneyBooney
11-14-2011, 22:30
We know less than they do. Sounds like he had a case of the stupids.


I agree. If carrying a gun "Mexican Style" a Glock is not the one to do it with. :shocked: Poor family lost a dad because of macho stupidity. :wow:

JuneyBooney
11-14-2011, 22:32
Sounds like an ND to me, not an AD. The man wasn't responsible in handling his firearm and he paid the price. It's very tragic.

Sounds strange, dying from a shot to the hip, but it likely cut through his femoral artery.

I think the location is summed up very well there. It would only take a few minutes to die from a shot in that artery. Very sad.

unit1069
11-15-2011, 06:55
If it's true the deceased pocket carried with a loaded chamber then it tells me he was either negligent in understanding the mechanics of the pistol, too cavalier to care to understand, or too stupid to understand them. Plaxico Burris and this guy are twins when it comes to this issue.

I have sympathy for the family's loss but am thankful that the only one he hurt was himself. It was an accident waiting to happen --- and it did.

rozz421
11-15-2011, 07:14
Ive heard of some issues with glocks and older leather holsters. Something about the leather by the trigger guard folding over time. Scary. I am sorry for his family's loss.

hamster
11-15-2011, 07:46
I don't know if this guy had a holster or not, but I always think of this type of thing when pocket carrying in the nemesis. I could see a pistol slipping out of such a pocket holster enough to expose a trigger.

redbaron007
11-15-2011, 08:36
I agree. If carrying a gun "Mexican Style" a Glock is not the one to do it with. :shocked: Poor family lost a dad because of macho stupidity. :wow:

+1
Sad to hear.


:wavey:

red

cloudbuster
11-15-2011, 08:58
I don't know if this guy had a holster or not, but I always think of this type of thing when pocket carrying in the nemesis. I could see a pistol slipping out of such a pocket holster enough to expose a trigger.

I have a rule that nothing goes in my gun pocket but the gun and the holster. That way, if you're reaching in that pocket, you're reaching for your gun, and there's nothing in there that can get wedged in the trigger guard.

I have a similar rule for the pocket where my knife is clipped after a couple experiences where a quarter got jammed in the knife's channel and it wouldn't open until I pulled the quarter out.

No spare change or small objects in the knife pocket. Nothing at all in the gun pocket.

GlockOnBoard
11-15-2011, 09:43
Stupid is as stupid does.

Perfect nominee for the Darwin Award.


:thumbsup:

AH.74
11-15-2011, 10:18
Ive heard of some issues with glocks and older leather holsters. Something about the leather by the trigger guard folding over time. Scary. I am sorry for his family's loss.

I know the situation and the pictures you are referring to. The issue is taking care of your gear, knowing when it is in danger of becoming defective and replacing it before it does so.

vafish
11-15-2011, 16:48
There is another thread in general glocking about this.

Poster on the thread claims to know the guy and to have spoken with his wife. According to her gun was in a holster.

IndyGunFreak
11-15-2011, 16:50
There is another thread in general glocking about this.

Poster on the thread claims to know the guy and to have spoken with his wife. According to her gun was in a holster.

I wonder what kind. Something doesn't add up here.

vafish
11-15-2011, 16:51
I wonder what kind. Something doesn't add up here.

He lists the brand but not the model.

W.E.G.
11-15-2011, 17:00
Didn't the wife tell the authorities that he "sometimes carries," and that she didn't know whether he was carrying that day until the gun went off?

Are we to believe that she questioned him about his use of a holster while he was bleeding out?

Very sad and sorry for his family.

BTW, there are a whole bunch more arteries in the lower abdomen than just the femoral artery.
I would expect a 9mm contact-wound in that area to be fatal in most cases.

W.E.G.
11-15-2011, 17:04
Linked thread has been removed

Wasatch
11-15-2011, 20:07
a very respectful comment.

+1

I +1 your +1.

fla2760
11-15-2011, 21:16
Very sad.

IndyGunFreak
11-15-2011, 23:03
He lists the brand but not the model.

Yeah (thread is deleted now, so I'm assuming this part of the discussion is verboten)..

I still have a hard time believing that firearm was in any sort of PROPERLY fitting holster. The post in that thread, suggested the holster was brand new, and did not fit properly. Well, all leather holsters have a break in period. If he just tossed it in a pocket without properly breaking it in....

I'm still of the mindset that the guy was probably negligent in some way, with very tragic results. Naturally threats of lawsuits, etc.. are already being thrown about (thus why the thread was likely locked), etc..

Nobody wins in a situation like this.

IGF

Jake Starr
11-15-2011, 23:07
Israeli Carry would have prevented this.

Deaf Smith
11-15-2011, 23:49
Israeli Carry would have prevented this.

A simple holster, like the ones on my carry guns below would have prevented that, and still kept the option of using one hand to draw and fire if need be without any delay.

http://glocktalk.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=216117&d=1303945890

Deaf

Warp
11-16-2011, 00:28
Israeli Carry would have prevented this.

Not carrying a gun would have prevented this.

Not owning a gun would have prevented this.

The mere fact that something would have prevented it is rather irrelevant.

IndyGunFreak
11-16-2011, 05:13
I just took a look at the holster makers website, and I did not see a single holster designed for pocket carry. So at the very least, he was carrying the firearm holstered, in a way it was not designed to be carried.

This will probably absolve the holster maker.

stevemc
11-16-2011, 06:16
Disagree, education is prevention. Not irrelevant at all.

Not carrying a gun would have prevented this.

Not owning a gun would have prevented this.

The mere fact that something would have prevented it is rather irrelevant.

unit1069
11-16-2011, 06:30
Israeli Carry would have prevented this.

Yes, and I'm afraid stories like this and others have caused me to carry more often than not without a round chambered.

I don't question the wisdom of those who always carry "hot"; I'm just used to living a staid, normal routine and as time passes and I read more of incidents like this unfortunate one as well as simple negligent discharges the more I lean towards safety first.

If I know I'm traveling through "iffy" areas or somewhere I'm unfamiliar then I'll have a round chambered but running to the store, etc ..., I'm usually carrying cold but trying to be always alert to my surroundings.

Jake Starr
11-16-2011, 07:05
Yes, and I'm afraid stories like this and others have caused me to carry more often than not without a round chambered.

I don't question the wisdom of those who always carry "hot"; I'm just used to living a staid, normal routine and as time passes and I read more of incidents like this unfortunate one as well as simple negligent discharges the more I lean towards safety first.

If I know I'm traveling through "iffy" areas or somewhere I'm unfamiliar then I'll have a round chambered but running to the store, etc ..., I'm usually carrying cold but trying to be always alert to my surroundings.


There is nothing faulty with your reasoning nor should you be ashamed of your method of carry. It is a valid option. If you wish I could email you paper I wrote about "Israeli Carry." Just send me a pm.

Training and good gear are fine. However, many an Unwanted Discharge has occured by highly trained, well equipped people.

stevemc
11-16-2011, 07:26
Hey Jake,

I would like to see a copy of your paper. Is it posted here? I don't want to disrespect the OP by changing the course of this thread, but I am a firm believer that the "one in the pipe" is the source of the vast majority of incidents like this. I just don't understand how much negative response comes to people who suggest that if you don't have time to rack it then you don't have time to pull it out to begin with or that it's just not that important to have it hot all the time. Heat shields up, captain.

Jake Starr
11-16-2011, 07:36
Hey Jake,

I would like to see a copy of your paper. Is it posted here? I don't want to disrespect the OP by changing the course of this thread, but I am a firm believer that the "one in the pipe" is the source of the vast majority of incidents like this. I just don't understand how much negative response comes to people who suggest that if you don't have time to rack it then you don't have time to pull it out to begin with or that it's just not that important to have it hot all the time. Heat shields up, captain.

Stevemc,
For some reason I could not send you a PM. If you send me you eaddress via PM I will be glad to send it.

RussP
11-16-2011, 07:43
There is nothing faulty with your reasoning nor should you be ashamed of your method of carry. It is a valid option. If you wish I could email you paper I wrote about "Israeli Carry." Just send me a pm.

Training and good gear are fine. However, many an Unwanted Discharge has occured by highly trained, well equipped people.Jake, if the paper is in .doc format, or you can convert to a .pdf file, you can attach it to a post, HOWEVER, I'd ask you to start a new thread, reference this story, perhaps put in a link to this thread.

RussP
11-16-2011, 07:46
Folks, let's not take this too much deeper into a discussion about Israeli Carry. I suggested Jake Starr start a new thread with his paper on the subject. If he doesn't, I'll move the posts relative to IC into a new thread.

Radian
11-16-2011, 08:28
its worth considering that thousands upon thousands of police carry striker guns holstered as well as thousands of civilians carry every day with no incidents.

Many posters have carried in this manner and my take it that it is safe and how the weapon was designed to be used.

By using a QUALITY HOLSTER (ie not NO holster) AND using some common sense I feel 100% comfortable with this method of carry.

Consider IDPA. During a given match you generally holster and unholster several times. At some matches this is done hot. The only time I have heard of and seen issues is re-holstering. Those all came from the vest getting into the trigger guard because the shooter rushed it into the holster.

By "watching" the gun into the holster you prevent this. Also I NEVER have shooters re-holster in a car. It can be done safely but it is safer when a person is standing.

Lastly you always know the state of your weapon. It is either loaded and holstered or in the safe at my house.

Its a personal call but IMHO there is zero risk added by carrying a striker gun loaded in a proper holster.

Pocket carry / mexican is suicidal.

All "accidents" are generally cascading failures, stacking up of bad decisions. That could be flying a perfectly good 767 into the side of a mountain or shooting yourself in the femoral artery.

He made several bad calls and paid with his life. Putting stops in place to go off when one bad choice is made may have saved his life. IE using a holster he is familiar with.


Yes, and I'm afraid stories like this and others have caused me to carry more often than not without a round chambered.

I don't question the wisdom of those who always carry "hot"; I'm just used to living a staid, normal routine and as time passes and I read more of incidents like this unfortunate one as well as simple negligent discharges the more I lean towards safety first.

If I know I'm traveling through "iffy" areas or somewhere I'm unfamiliar then I'll have a round chambered but running to the store, etc ..., I'm usually carrying cold but trying to be always alert to my surroundings.

quadraceryfz450
11-16-2011, 14:50
Sad Story indeed. Another reason I carry with empty chamber.

People are far from perfect and make mistakes all the time; even professionals.

Chesafreak
11-16-2011, 14:59
I think its a bad idea to re-holster a pistol while wearing a IWB holster. I always put the pistol in the holster, then insert the holster IWB and secure it. If I remove the pistol from the holster, I take the holster off, insert the pistol, and then put it back IWB. Concerning a pocket pistol like my LCP, I don't put anything else in that pocket and I keep my hands out of that pocket. I use a pocket holster that covers the trigger. These practices as well as keeping my finger off the trigger until ready to fire are what I rely on to stay safe.

AWGD8
11-16-2011, 15:12
Poor guy. RIP. This kind of incident make me wanna pocket carry my Ruger LCR as primary gun and the subcompact G39 unchambered holstered behind my back (6 o'clock).
This way the G39 is faster to rack than loading with a speedloader.

Disadvantage, I have to carry 2 guns, but the LCR is so light and does not need a belt holster. ( just a pocket holster) and will aways BANG! when needed.
No matter how good a holster is, once you become used to it , you also become less careful with it.

Just like statistics shows that most car accidents happen within 3-5 miles from home. The reason, things become so routinely and we tend to be less careful .

I think this might happened to this guy. I still do not like to leave a chambered round while carrying. BTW, what brand of gun was used by the dead guy?

SCmasterblaster
11-16-2011, 19:45
http://www.wtvr.com/news/wtvr-father-kills-self-grocery-store-20111114,0,314000.story

Guy sitting in car with kids, waiting for wife to go to store. He somehow shoots himself in the hip, and dies.

Says he was unbucking seatbelt, and somehow fired his Glock .40.

No details on how it was carried, if in holster, or in pocket, or in hand, or what.

Sad, but also what the heck happened?

No mystery here. THE GUY PULLED THE TRIGGER! That is how loaded Glocks fire, when someone pulls the trigger.

I carry my G17 fully-loaded with the chamber loaded. BUT, with my Otapin inserted, neither I nor anyone else can pull the trigger and fire the gun. My +p+ 115gr JHP bullet will stay in the case even if the trigger is pulled. My Otapin would have saved this guy's life, well maybe.

cowboy1964
11-16-2011, 19:54
I've argued in the past for the merits of condition one carry but I think I'll stop. Whatever one is comfortable with is the most important thing, as long as one understands the advantages and disadvantages.

Warp
11-16-2011, 20:11
That is how loaded Glocks fire, when someone pulls the trigger.

A more accurate statement is that they fire when the trigger is pulled.

IndyGunFreak
11-16-2011, 20:24
Sad Story indeed. Another reason I carry with empty chamber.

People are far from perfect and make mistakes all the time; even professionals.

Of course they are.. but I can count numerous mistakes this guy made, just based on a few things said in the deleted thread

1. He's apparently pocket carrying a gun, in a holster that is not designed for pocket carry (the holster maker he used, does not make a pocket holster)

2. According to the other, the gun did not even fit all the way in the holster, and was very tight. Well, duh... It's leather, it has to be broken in. You don't take a brand new baseball glove, and go play outfield for the Yankees.

Whether the family wants to admit it or not, he clearly hit the trigger, either because he used his gear improperly (IWB holster in a pocket) or the holster did not fit properly, because it had not been broken in.

Sadly, especially given the price that was paid, neither of those are "mistakes" they are complete negligence.

Deaf Smith
11-16-2011, 21:03
As I've posted many times in the past...

Several advantages for chamber carry plus a few disadvantages.

1) Simplicity. No need to add another step to get the weapon in action.

2) Immediate first shot in the shortest time period, especially from retention position (that is grabbing distance.)

3) No need for two hands to chamber. You may have one hand hurt or busy and not be able to use two hands. Grappling with an attacker also makes chambering with two hands rather tough. Opponent may slam you to the ground, or grab the weapon, or just punch you while you try to chamber a round.

4) When under pressure you might short stroke the action and jam the weapon.

The downside is that if you forget the gun is loaded you can pull the trigger and have a AD/ND (but then, just KYFFOTFT till the weapon is on target.) Yes there are AD/NDs every year. No doubt many have their weapons chamber loaded, but then many are ‘cleaning’ their weapons and well, who knows what state their weapons was really in.

Now chamber empty (C3) has a few advantages.

1) A gun snatch will give you a few seconds for the BG to react (you hope) to get the weapon back.

2) If you have kids, and the slide is hard to rack, it's less chancy of they get the gun somehow (but then I feel you should just pick the gun up, ok.)

3) If your gun is not drop safe, then chamber empty is the best way to carry.

4) No safe way to carry the weapon (lack of holster, poor holster, etc..)

5) If you tend to take your gun out and play with it instead of keeping it holstered then C3 might be a better way to carry. (not kidding, there are people that do mess with their weapons like that.)

Overall, chamber empty is an inferior technique for most people. There are some where it serves a purpose like having the weapon hidden around the house and you have time to chamber a round, but for most, chamber loaded is the better technique for a defensive handgun.

Now why is C3 inferior? Because of the extra steps one has to take that mostly require two hands under very stressful conditions. Kind of like the technique of fanning a SA revolver in that it pretty much requires two hands and done fast.

Is chamber empty safer to carry? Not if you keep the weapon in a proper holster that covers the trigger guard and has adequate retention (in case of a fall or such) and don/doff with the weapon in the holster. That way the trigger cannot be pulled in any way.

Deaf

Jake Starr
11-17-2011, 05:51
5) If you tend to take your gun out and play with it instead of keeping it holstered then C3 might be a better way to carry. (not kidding, there are people that do mess with their weapons like that.)

This is a fair assessment. Although I would put myself in this category, I don’t consider it play. Since I work full time as a range and instructor, I am constantly training or showing people gun handling techniques. I always have a blue gun handy but find using a real gun more useful.

Overall, chamber empty is an inferior technique for most people.

Hardly a statement based upon fact. More people worldwide carry C3.While C1 is no doubt preferred method in US, I have found my own experience that more people carry C3 than C1 here in the states. This does not include LEOs.

There are some where it serves a purpose like having the weapon hidden around the house and you have time to chamber a round, but for most, chamber loaded is the better technique for a defensive handgun.

For a defensive handgun perhaps. But Colonel Applegate, as well as, the Israelis do not consider the handgun a defensive instrument but rather a combat weapon. This is due to the warrior combat mindset that is different from the typical civilian CCDW holder and LEO.

Now why is C3 inferior? Because of the extra steps one has to take that mostly require two hands under very stressful conditions.

Inferior for whom? You? Perhaps, if you lack training. For me or some others, I think not. What you consider extra steps are not extra in the Israeli method.

Is chamber empty safer to carry?
Not if you keep the weapon in a proper holster that covers the trigger guard and has adequate retention (in case of a fall or such) and don/doff with the weapon in the holster. That way the trigger cannot be pulled in any way.


While I agree with what you describe above it can easily be said of a gun placed in a safe. But you what you asked is C3 safer than C1 to carry? And I assume you mean carry on a daily basis? Then I would have to say yes, it is safer. In life, things happen as the story posted by the OP confirms. And it happens to trained individuals more often that you may realize.

And I may add that carrying C3 is not the same thing as carrying "Israeli." I know many who carry C3 but have not a clue to the true Israeli method.

IT0
11-17-2011, 06:57
Israeli Carry would have prevented this.

I agree with this.

ithaca_deerslayer
11-17-2011, 12:51
UPDATE TO THE STORY

http://www.wtvr.com/news/wtvr-father-had-gun-tucked-into-pants-waistband-20111116,0,1545282.story

Says the guy was carrying the Glock without a holster, and it was tucked in his waistband. Also says he had a valid CCW permit.

Billy10mm
11-17-2011, 13:23
I think its a bad idea to re-holster a pistol while wearing a IWB holster. I always put the pistol in the holster, then insert the holster IWB and secure it. If I remove the pistol from the holster, I take the holster off, insert the pistol, and then put it back IWB. Concerning a pocket pistol like my LCP, I don't put anything else in that pocket and I keep my hands out of that pocket. I use a pocket holster that covers the trigger. These practices as well as keeping my finger off the trigger until ready to fire are what I rely on to stay safe.

So I take it you don't do any actual training/practice? How does one do presentation drills, or any drills in general, if they have to undo their belt every single time?

I'll do 5 to 10 minutes of drills per day on average and may present and reholster anywhere from 30 to 60 times in that time period.

Chesafreak
11-17-2011, 13:32
So I take it you don't do any actual training/practice? How does one do presentation drills, or any drills in general, if they have to undo their belt every single time?

I'll do 5 to 10 minutes of drills per day on average and may present and reholster anywhere from 30 to 60 times in that time period.

Thanks, BillyNg. I have thought about this. I just received my Crossbreed Supertuck with kydex. I feel comfortable in reholstering while wearing a kydex holster. My first holster (what I had when I posted that) was leather and I did not feel comfortable reholstering my G23 while wearing it.

IndyGunFreak
11-17-2011, 21:11
Thanks, BillyNg. I have thought about this. I just received my Crossbreed Supertuck with kydex. I feel comfortable in reholstering while wearing a kydex holster. My first holster (what I had when I posted that) was leather and I did not feel comfortable reholstering my G23 while wearing it.

Properly fitted leather, is no more likely to hit the trigger, than properly fitted Kydex... Regardless, Kydex does have some properties I really like. Easy to clean, impervious to the elements, light weight, and very fast.

Beyond that, it would appear from the updated link, the bashing the holster maker took in the deleted thread, was unwarranted, as the guy wasn't even using a holster. So much for what that poster "knew for a fact"

This is just a senseless, and totally preventable, tragedy.

Jake Starr
11-17-2011, 22:03
UPDATE TO THE STORY

http://www.wtvr.com/news/wtvr-father...,1545282.story

Says the guy was carrying the Glock without a holster, and it was tucked in his waistband. Also says he had a valid CCW permit.


As I said, C3 carry would have prevented this. A holster serves more than just to protect the trigger and secure the gun. It also serves as a fixed reference point to make sure gun is in the same place whenever it needs to be drawn. Protection of trigger or retention is secondary rather than primary.

cowboy1964
11-17-2011, 22:05
So I take it you don't do any actual training/practice? How does one do presentation drills, or any drills in general, if they have to undo their belt every single time?

Obviously I think he was referring to reholstering when loaded?

Warp
11-17-2011, 22:20
As I said, C3 carry would have prevented this. A holster serves more than just to protect the trigger and secure the gun. It also serves as a fixed reference point to make sure gun is in the same place whenever it needs to be drawn. Protection of trigger or retention is secondary rather than primary.

And as I said, not carrying a gun would have prevented this.

Jake Starr
11-17-2011, 22:39
And as I said, not carrying a gun would have prevented this.


True. But I still prefer to carry. Condition is not the issue. Training is.

IndyGunFreak
11-18-2011, 03:18
As I said, C3 carry would have prevented this. A holster serves more than just to protect the trigger and secure the gun. It also serves as a fixed reference point to make sure gun is in the same place whenever it needs to be drawn. Protection of trigger or retention is secondary rather than primary.

It might have prevented this particular incident.. but in my opinion, people that are unsafe or careless with a weapon they know is unchambered... it will eventually catch up to them, and they will be unsafe with a loaded weapon, and will end up hurt because of it.

Jake Starr
11-18-2011, 06:29
It might have prevented this particular incident.. but in my opinion, people that are unsafe or careless with a weapon they know is unchambered... it will eventually catch up to them, and they will be unsafe with a loaded weapon, and will end up hurt because of it.


Opinion is fine but not fact. In my opinion people who are unsafe or careless will have issues no matter what condition they carry. Facts are more people are hurt who Carry C1 than C3.

Chesafreak
11-18-2011, 07:10
Properly fitted leather, is no more likely to hit the trigger, than properly fitted Kydex...

There have been two incidents I have read about lately in which a worn leather holster folded in and contacted the trigger resulting in an AD. I can only find a link to one of the references.
http://www.itstactical.com/warcom/firearms/safety-warning-worn-leather-holsters-can-cause-accidental-discharges/

Warp
11-18-2011, 10:50
Facts are more people are hurt who Carry C1 than C3.

Facts are more people carry C1.

If you have a *fact* that establishes the rate at which each is hurt I would love to see it.

Patchman
11-18-2011, 12:33
Opinion is fine but not fact. In my opinion people who are unsafe or careless will have issues no matter what condition they carry.

Facts are more people are hurt who Carry C1 than C3.

"Isreali Carry" refers to carrying in condition 3. I don't know if "Israeli Carry" is a misnomer or if indeed most pistol carrier there carry in condition 3. If condition 3 is the preferred method, I'd be curious to see any study that's been done on the subject of ADs there.

IndyGunFreak
11-18-2011, 17:34
There have been two incidents I have read about lately in which a worn leather holster folded in and contacted the trigger resulting in an AD. I can only find a link to one of the references.
http://www.itstactical.com/warcom/firearms/safety-warning-worn-leather-holsters-can-cause-accidental-discharges/

Anyone who posts a link to that, I automatically put in the "Knows nothing about holsters" category. I have leather that there is no way on earth, after 6-7yrs, that I could push into the trigger guard like that, and if I ever saw evidence that I could, that holster would immediately be in the trash.

Again, NOTHING TO DO WITH THE HOLSTER... IT WAS THE IDIOT USING IT. He was using a defective holster, and knew it. If i drive a car that I know has bad brakes, who is to blame when the car doesn't stop? The car manufacturer, or me? The writer of that article should thank his lucky stars every day, that the round did not hit his artery, like it did on the guy in this thread.

That post has nothing to do w/ leather, and everything to do w/ a knucklehead. Frankly (if you search the other threads on this example of irresponsibility), several are of the belief he "wet soaked" that holster, and thus why it was so soft right there, and went inside the trigger guard in the first place.

Again, show me a better example of a holster at fault, that has nothing to do w/ that clown.

IGF

IndyGunFreak
11-18-2011, 17:36
Opinion is fine but not fact. In my opinion people who are unsafe or careless will have issues no matter what condition they carry. Facts are more people are hurt who Carry C1 than C3.

:upeyes:

And we're back to blaming the gun again.

Some of you guys should go work for Brady.

Deye76
11-18-2011, 18:00
"The mere fact that something would have prevented it is rather irrelevant."

To what?
Root cause analysis is always relevant.

Jake Starr
11-18-2011, 21:17
Facts are more people carry C1.

Where? US? Perhaps, perhaps not. C3 is by far the majority worldwide. Maybe not in the US but more carrry C3 in the US than one may realize. This is not from some study just from my speaking with instructors locally and nationwide.

If you have a *fact* that establishes the rate at which each is hurt I would love to see it.


Not sure if this is what you want but see if this helps you:


Statistics: nobody likes them, but they are necessary and they do have their place. We can analyze statistical data to make inferences and to help in the decision making process. In this case the numbers, which never lie, are necessary for exposing and revealing one of the biggest but least talked about issues plaguing law enforcement today: The accidental firing of one’s weapon, the negligent discharge.

Lets take a look at the NYPD firearms discharge report for the year 2004 (as published by WCBS). In that year police engaged in 11 gunfights (exchange of fire between officers and subjects). In those 11 gun fights, there were 92 shots fired by police officers and 18 of the 92 were hits, that’s 20% accuracy. In the same year there were 27 accidental discharges of an officer’s duty firearm. Of those 27 accidental discharges, 28 shots were fired and 13 were hits. 13 of 28 or 46% of shots fired hit the officer or bystander.

In the year 2005 there were 16 gun fights and 24 accidental discharges of firearms. In those 16 gun fights 35 officers fired. The officers fired a total of 276 rounds hitting their target only 23 times. That is a dismal 8% accuracy rate. The average was 17 shots fired per incident and 8 per officer. In 2005 25 accidental shots were fired by 24 NYPD police officers hitting 10 times, with an unfortunate accuracy rating of 42 percent.

Unfortunately the police are much more likely to shoot themselves or a bystander then they are to engage a criminal in an actual gunfight. This statistical conclusion is not a matter of opinion or meant to do anything else but state the obvious; if one is more likely to shoot oneself or another accidentally (more then twice as likely in 2004), then one should not have a gun. Those officers pose a greater threat to society and themselves than the criminals. These are the NYPD’s statistics as reported. It is unfortunate, but we can learn from this. The answer is not to disarm the police like in the UK, no, the answer is not to fire anybody or punish and embarrass the department. The answer is to slightly transform our training and culture within US law enforcement.

The NYPD is supposed to be a prestigious elite organization that other police and security agencies can look up to worldwide. But looking at the statistics of other units around the world who have equal to and more gunfights per year (Israel for example) you will see they have far fewer accidental shooting incidents. This is due to the fact that in other countries outside the US, like Russia and other EU countries, a bullet is not carried in the chamber.


This was submitted to IALEFI by an Internationally known instructor when asked about training standards here in the US.

And we're back to blaming the gun again.

Some of you guys should go work for Brady.

Can't see how this statement is relevant? Guns don’t have unwanted discharges, people do. But people who carry C3 have fewer than those who carry C1.

Warp
11-18-2011, 22:11
"if one is more likely to shoot oneself or another accidentally (more then twice as likely in 2004), then one should not have a gun."

Snipped from your posted quote.


Doesn't say anything about condition of carry. Also, like I said, not carrying a gun would have prevented this

Patchman
11-19-2011, 07:16
I would have absolutely no problem with a vast majority of U.S. CCWers carrying in condition 3. OCing + condition 3 is even better.

Chesafreak
11-19-2011, 08:19
Anyone who posts a link to that, I automatically put in the "Knows nothing about holsters" category.

Wow, so you must know it all and look down your nose on the rest of us. Personal attacks are so High Schoolish. You just let everyone know what category you fall into. Have a nice day.

IndyGunFreak
11-19-2011, 09:53
Wow, so you must know it all and look down your nose on the rest of us. Personal attacks are so High Schoolish. You just let everyone know what category you fall into. Have a nice day.

Sorry... I'm not the one giving links to articles in which the guy who had the holster, ADMITTED HE KNEW the holster was messed up and inside of the trigger guard.

That is pure, 100% negligence, nothing to do w/ personal attacks, looking down my nose, etc. It's just how it is, if you don't like it, sorry. That situation had nothing to do w/ a holster, and everything to do w/ a knucklehead who knowingly had a defective holster, and kept on using it.... or did you somehow draw some other conclusion from reading that?

Now, if you want to post a link to where a leather holster actually caused an ND, I'm more than willing to read it.. but it's definitely not the one you linked to (and I'll just save you the hassle, you won't find one). You can do whatever you want, but bottom line, quality leather does not do what that holster did unless it is abused... which was my whole point in countering your assertion that leather was somehow less safe than Kydex.

IGF

steveksux
11-19-2011, 10:08
Holsters don't kill people. People kill people.

If you want to do a root cause analysis, do a proper one. The holster is not the root cause here.

Gunsterbating is the root cause. The holster merely contributed. And it only contributed because the gunsterbator was too stupid to replace an obviously worn out holster.

Way to save $50. Sorry for the family, but the guy was completely at fault here. Using his brain would have prevented this. It wasn't a momentary lapse of judgement when you're knowingly using a defective worn out holster AND can't resist pulling it out and playing with it, in a car, where its going to be difficult to reholster sitting down.

But yes, I will grant you C3 IS safer for chronic gunsterbators than carrying with a round in the chamber.

Is that because C3 is safer, or because gunsterbators are less safe?

Randy

Misty02
11-19-2011, 11:00
This article also mentions “tucked” as in not holstered: http://www2.timesdispatch.com/news/state-news/2011/nov/18/tdmet02-man-whose-gun-discharged-killing-him-had-c-ar-1467500/ (http://www2.timesdispatch.com/news/state-news/2011/nov/18/tdmet02-man-whose-gun-discharged-killing-him-had-c-ar-1467500/)

I’ve heard & read people mention they have carried Mexican style for quick trips to the grocery store and the like. The same has been mentioned with pocket carry without a holster. Each time it has sent chills down my spine. If I’ve taken the time to express my terror in doing so I’ve received comments such as, “don’t touch the trigger and nothing will happen”.

I have similar apprehension when I’ve heard of women that carry in a purse (even with a holster) where there isn’t a dedicated section for the firearm, where there is nothing else and the holster is not affixed to a side and not resting at the bottom. I have had things disappear in my purse and later found it beyond the lining. Somehow these things went through a tiny whole and I’m left scratching my head as to how it made it through.

My fanny pack maintains the firearm in an un-collapsible holster in the last section against my body with the entire front covered all the way to the sights on top and the grip toward the bottom. The covered trigger is about 4+ inches from the bottom. I know that it is unlikely that anything from another compartment will get to the trigger even if it managed to get in that section (it would have to travel 4+ inches up and sneak in the tight fitting holster). Nonetheless, when I saw the first sign of wear and tear in the lining compartment between the firearm and where I keep other items I replaced the fanny pack that same day. I maintain a backup and a backup for the backup. It may be silly to think that it is possible for something to travel to that section and then travel up, but stranger things have happened.

The unthinkable happens more often than we care to acknowledge. I sincerely hope that anyone here that has ever carried without a holster, even for a second or a quick trip somewhere learns from this incident and never does it again. The risk is way too high to give any possible advantage a second thought (even if it is another firearm with an external safety).

My prayers to his children who witnessed something no child should ever witness and for his loved ones as well.

Carry safely, everyone!

.

Patchman
11-19-2011, 13:42
Gunsterbating is the root cause.

As young boys, we learned from the LaSalle Brothers who ran the school that the punishment is blindness. This situation kind of upped the ante a little.

All-in-all, I'd still prefer blindness.

IlliniGlocker
11-19-2011, 13:53
Lots of butthurt going around in this thread, but here are my thoughts:

1. Leather holsters need to be replaced regularly, as the leather becomes soft and this will cause issues. Kydex does not have this problem, but your rig should be inspected every day to insure that it works.

2. Carrying with a round in the chamber with no holster on a Glock is asking for trouble.

3. The "Klip" draw and "Saf-t-blok" are two of the dumbest inventions in man kind.

4. Carrying condition three has it's own issues. Namely, when you draw, you now have an extra step before you engage the threat. I'm not willing to give up the time to the bad guy, so that he can shoot me back.

5. If you're nervous about carrying a Glock with a round chambered, there are other platforms that will work for you.

6. Everyone on this forum needs to get some training. I have never been surrounded by so many recreational shooters standing up on their soap boxes and spewing their crap. I'm glad I go here for humor and not serious advice.

Steve50
11-19-2011, 14:11
Lots of butthurt going around in this thread, but here are my thoughts:

6. Everyone on this forum needs to get some training. I have never been surrounded by so many recreational shooters standing up on their soap boxes and spewing their crap. I'm glad I go here for humor and not serious advice.

Always a good idea to insult everyone ....

IlliniGlocker
11-19-2011, 14:27
Always a good idea to insult everyone ....

Well, prove me wrong. There's a reason the 10-8 forum has the rules they do.

Misty02
11-19-2011, 14:31
Lots of butthurt going around in this thread, but here are my thoughts:

1. Leather holsters need to be replaced regularly, as the leather becomes soft and this will cause issues. Kydex does not have this problem, but your rig should be inspected every day to insure that it works.

2. Carrying with a round in the chamber with no holster on a Glock is asking for trouble.

3. The "Klip" draw and "Saf-t-blok" are two of the dumbest inventions in man kind.

4. Carrying condition three has it's own issues. Namely, when you draw, you now have an extra step before you engage the threat. I'm not willing to give up the time to the bad guy, so that he can shoot me back.

5. If you're nervous about carrying a Glock with a round chambered, there are other platforms that will work for you.

6. Everyone on this forum needs to get some training. I have never been surrounded by so many recreational shooters standing up on their soap boxes and spewing their crap. I'm glad I go here for humor and not serious advice.

What leads you to assume that “everyone” in this forum doesn’t take training seriously and regularly?

By the way, there have been prominent trainers with years of handling experience that have had ND and have injured themselves. Training, proper equipment and discipline will play an important part in keeping us safe and hopefully from ever injuring ourselves or others unintentionally. In spite all that, you will still read/hear of incidents that should have never happened but do; use those to learn from.

.

Steve50
11-19-2011, 14:34
Well, prove me wrong. There's a reason the 10-8 forum has the rules they do.

sounds like the perfect place for you...

IndyGunFreak
11-19-2011, 15:10
I'm not sure I've ever heard of leather needing to be replaced "regularly"... There's some folks out there that have quality leather that has lasted them 10-15+ years. My High Noon is pushing 7yrs old, and it's still as stiff as the day I bought it.

Well, prove me wrong. There's a reason the 10-8 forum has the rules they do.

You mean because police officers are so safe with firearms, because of the EXTENSIVE training they have? I'm not ball busting on cops, but.. really, do you want to have this discussion?

DEA agent, Las Vegas cop, the Immigration agent who had the ND next to about 40 people... That's just to name a few that were caught on video...

IGF

RussP
11-19-2011, 17:32
Folks, insults, rude language and behavior, name calling, all against GT Rules. Think it's cute and funny? We don't.