any purpose to carrying an extra mag? [Archive] - Glock Talk

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huggytree
11-14-2011, 16:34
i bought a Glock extra mag holder for my belt, but now i wondering why i did

it just seems foolish to think id ever need more than 10 shots for any situation when the odds are 99.99999% that i will ever even draw my gun

do any of you carry a spare mag?

BailRecoveryAgent
11-14-2011, 16:53
I do.

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poodleplumber
11-14-2011, 16:53
I carry an extra mag, in large part because failures can usually be resolved by changing mags. It is often said that the magazine is the least reliable part of pistols, so a spare gives you a mechanical backup, as well as extra rounds in the unlikely even that a shooting incident is prolonged beyond 10 rounds.

Lockback
11-14-2011, 16:54
When I carry my 15-round G19, no.
When I carry my 7-round G36, usually.

John Rambo
11-14-2011, 16:55
i bought a Glock extra mag holder for my belt, but now i wondering why i did

it just seems foolish to think id ever need more than 10 shots for any situation when the odds are 99.99999% that i will ever even draw my gun

do any of you carry a spare mag?

Yes, there is a purpose to it.

To calm the irrational fears of the person carrying it. Its just a little chunk of metal - really not a whole lot of downside to doing so, except jerks on the internet will make fun of you for thinking you live in an action movie.

michael e
11-14-2011, 16:57
In vehicle, not on me. I carry a BUG or two, so a reload seems overkill on top of that.

Deye76
11-14-2011, 16:59
If I find myself having to enter "the belly of the beast" (eastside, or southwest Detroit) then likely. Otherwise rarely.

LongGoneDays
11-14-2011, 17:03
Whenever I'm traveling I like to keep an extra just in case a table I sit at wobbles.

69Charger
11-14-2011, 17:04
No.

Dave

Lockback
11-14-2011, 17:06
Whenever I'm traveling I like to keep an extra just in case a table I sit at wobbles.
:rofl:

ChipM
11-14-2011, 17:06
In addition to the malfunction-solving capability and the (admittedly small) chance to need more shots, I find that it balances out my belt a bit.

Truffle8Shuffle
11-14-2011, 17:12
I carry an extra mag, in large part because failures can usually be resolved by changing mags. It is often said that the magazine is the least reliable part of pistols, so a spare gives you a mechanical backup, as well as extra rounds in the unlikely even that a shooting incident is prolonged beyond 10 rounds.

This all day long.

Same reason I keep a spare tire in my car. I don't plan on getting a flat tire and have only had one in my 12 short years of driving but I want to be ready if I do.

Glockworks
11-14-2011, 17:21
deleted

Glockworks
11-14-2011, 17:22
This all day long.

Same reason I keep a spare tire in my car. I don't plan on getting a flat tire and have only had one in my 12 short years of driving but I want to be ready if I do.

Best answer so far IMHO.

And further I never want to need it, but if I need it, I want it with me and not sitting in my safe where it does no good. I usually wear cargo pants and the extra mag goes in there.

:supergrin:

Toorop
11-14-2011, 17:26
Pretty much summed up by the above posters. Malfunctions, balancing the belt, and needing more ammo are good reasons. Assuming that you won't need more then 10 shots is fine, but what if you do? I assume you never miss either?

69Charger
11-14-2011, 17:45
Extra mag? If you went through all the scenarios that you might need something, you would have to bring it all along in a Semi Truck. Whats your level of paranoia? Do whatever. :dunno:
Dave

fuzzy03cls
11-14-2011, 17:47
I suggest that anyone that thinks they don't need a extra mag or 2, take a stress induced training class. You will understand after that.

Maine1
11-14-2011, 17:59
A mag? No

Two mags..yes.

Wolf Spyder
11-14-2011, 18:10
And just when you thought it was safe to go back into the water... "Jaws 15" coming to a theater near you...

...Yup, there have been a couple of these types of threads.




It is my humble opinion that if you carry a gun, you should carry at least one spare magazine / reload. If for no other reason than; "It is better to have and not need, than to need and not have."

What if while your out and about, you do have a need to pull out your pistol and fire a few shots to save your own life... with out a reload, what do you put in the gun for the trip home? There are many reason why I carry spare magazines, but you have to put some thought into why you carry in the first place, especially if you are questioning the idea of having spare ammo, on your person, for your self defense tool.


This is my EDC;

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v378/Wolf_Spyder/JW7E2583small.jpg

And this is why I carry a 10mm;

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v378/Wolf_Spyder/IMG_0402_0403enhancedcroppedsmall.jpg

The 9mm expanded to 1/2 an inch, the 10mm expanded to 1.20 inches. So, the 10mm tripled in diameter, and hits with twice the kinetic energy.





Food for thought.

you can never have enough loaded magazines...

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v378/Wolf_Spyder/JW7E2578small.jpg

j-glock22
11-14-2011, 18:11
A mag? No

Two mags..yes.

Was wondering when someone would say this.
:supergrin:

huggytree
11-14-2011, 18:33
thanks for the advice...maybe i will carry it....i bought the plastic Glock brand...is there a better one youd recommend?

BailRecoveryAgent
11-14-2011, 18:36
thanks for the advice...maybe i will carry it....i bought the plastic Glock brand...is there a better one youd recommend?

I use my leatherman carrier.

I have to just lol at the guys that think carrying a pistol is reasonable but a spare mag is somehow paranoid.

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ChuteTheMall
11-14-2011, 18:37
A spare mag is the next best thing to a back-up gun.

KiloBravo
11-14-2011, 18:44
I carry a G17 fully loaded with one spare mag on my belt and one more in my car. I also usually carry a BUG. I also carry a knife, flashlight, leatherman, and a bunch of other stuff. I would rather have and not need, than to need and not have. I also carry a "Get Home Bag" that also doubles as a hunting/hiking pack. I don't keep any guns in that bag, but I have plenty of capabilities for fire, food, shelter, etc. I also keep a larger Bug Out Bag and a duffel bag with all of my tac gear at home. The small one will get me home to the bigger stuff, including larger firearms.

Reason for the long response, is to tell you to have as much gear on hand as you think is reasonable. I don't let what other people say and think influence my decisions.

ETA: The smaller bag I was taking about above usually stays in the car. If I am going to be very far from the car for any length of time, then I sling it on my back.

Wolf Spyder
11-14-2011, 18:45
Thanks for the advice... maybe I will carry it....

Is there a better one you'd recommend?



Ya, there are dozens of companies that make good gear. I use Galco, but there is a sticky above that list most of the holster makers.

steve581581
11-14-2011, 19:06
I carry a spare mag while I'm at work because I'm in vacant homes all day by myself and it makes me feel better.

j-glock22
11-14-2011, 19:16
At present, one extra mag, to get home.... but after reading a few posts here, may have me re-think my get-home prep...

Merkavaboy
11-14-2011, 19:32
For all you naysayers out there who dont think its necessary to carry spare ammo or that it's "paranoia" to carry spare ammo, I'm sure Rory Vertigan would quickly disagree with you.

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0BTT/is_186_31/ai_n27134440/

jdavionic
11-14-2011, 19:34
Yes, I often carry an extra mag. Two reasons. First, in the highly unlikely event (IMHO) that I need the extra ammo. And secondly, to offer another means to recover from a malfunction...again, unlikely IMHO. With that said, "unlikely" doesn't mean you won't need it. It's little effort to carry it, so I usually do so.

hamster
11-14-2011, 19:39
I have never seen any documented cases of a civilian* SD encounter outside the house requiring more than a couple of shots. Every documented case I've seen when the civilian pulls a weapon, the BD flees. They may fire a shot or two while fleeing, but they never stay around to count how many rounds the civilian is carrying.

If anyone can send me a link to a single story of a SD situation involving an average civilian* CCW outside of their home** running out of ammo or requiring a reload, I'll re-consider my faith in revolvers.


Unless I'm planning on storming a beach in Normandy, 5 shots is plenty for social situations.

*Please note, my definition of an average civilian is a person who is not a LEO, armed guard, jewelry store owner, cash courier, bodyguard, Bruce Willis, person with a stalker, world leader, drug lord or other people in dangerous professions. People in those specific classes may have reason to require higher firepower.

**Home invasion/domestic violence scenarios don't count here as I'm talking about CCW for the average citizen. Inside the home I don't consider to be CCWing, at home one can have an Arsenal big enough to defend the Alamo.

rohanreginald
11-14-2011, 19:40
Talk to someone who has been in a shooting. I am sure their answer will make you want to carry a spare mag.

Mr.Reignman
11-14-2011, 19:41
And just when you thought it was safe to go back into the water... "Jaws 15" coming to a theater near you...

...Yup, there have been a couple of these types of threads.




It is my humble opinion that if you carry a gun, you should carry at least one spare magazine / reload. If for no other reason than; "It is better to have and not need, than to need and not have."

What if while your out and about, you do have a need to pull out your pistol and fire a few shots to save your own life... with out a reload, what do you put in the gun for the trip home? There are many reason why I carry spare magazines, but you have to put some thought into why you carry in the first place, especially if you are questioning the idea of having spare ammo, on your person, for your self defense tool.


This is my EDC;

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v378/Wolf_Spyder/JW7E2583small.jpg

And this is why I carry a 10mm;

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v378/Wolf_Spyder/IMG_0402_0403enhancedcroppedsmall.jpg

The 9mm expanded to 1/2 an inch, the 10mm expanded to 1.20 inches. So, the 10mm tripled in diameter, and hits with twice the kinetic energy.





Food for thought.

you can never have enough loaded magazines...

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v378/Wolf_Spyder/JW7E2578small.jpg









Damn thats depressing.......( I carry 9mm now)

Mr.Reignman
11-14-2011, 19:48
FWIW: Here's my contribution:


I carry glocks.
I carry glocks equipped with extended mag releases.
My glock release gets tripped on long rides, quick abrupt sitting down in chairs etc...
I have very small hands and the mag release helps me...

Considering it happens from time to time, if I draw and a mag drops out by terrible luck, you really think I'm going to fumble around on the ground looking for it? What if it falls under a vehicle?



Now, 15 rounds seems like plenty of ammo..... Sure, 15+1 sounds even better...... What's better than that? 46 rounds, the ability to fire a few extra rounds knowing I am not in conservation mode and lastly KNOWING that if I have an issue, I have options.


Sorry, not carrying backup mags because you won't need them or carrying a 5 shot revolver and thinking "yea, thats plenty" is rather presumptuous.

Merkavaboy
11-14-2011, 19:54
I have never seen any documented cases of a civilian* SD encounter outside the house requiring more than a couple of shots. Every documented case I've seen when the civilian pulls a weapon, the BD flees. They may fire a shot or two while fleeing, but they never stay around to count how many rounds the civilian is carrying.

If anyone can send me a link to a single story of a SD situation involving an average civilian* CCW outside of their home** running out of ammo or requiring a reload, I'll re-consider my faith in revolvers.


Unless I'm planning on storming a beach in Normandy, 5 shots is plenty for social situations.

*Please note, my definition of an average civilian is a person who is not a LEO, armed guard, jewelry store owner, cash courier, bodyguard, Bruce Willis, person with a stalker, world leader, drug lord or other people in dangerous professions. People in those specific classes may have reason to require higher firepower.

**Home invasion/domestic violence scenarios don't count here as I'm talking about CCW for the average citizen. Inside the home I don't consider to be CCWing, at home one can have an Arsenal big enough to defend the Alamo.

I just posted one.

Maine1
11-14-2011, 19:58
Sometimes these discussions are good. Sometimes the devolve into critisizing others actions. I do not mean to do that.
carry what you want, and don't let some internet voice bother you.

what i REALLY find funny is people who will whine about weight/bulk. Now, i know that the following statement is not ALWAYS true, but its OFTEN true: complaining about the weight of a magazine, gun, blade, ect is a little foolish when on average most are carrying an EXTRA UNEEDED ( and I am a fan of having deposits for survival's sake) 5# to 50# or more of lard.
I am in the proces of losing, but i also am active, until some tendonitis kicked in i was running 3 miles several times a week.
Regular exersize also makes the gun light as a feather. i really don't care how fat your a@@ is as long as you can MOVE your a@@...other than that its slowing you down, and that is bad for survival.
Mobility strenght and endurance are part of the equasion too.

Sorry to interupt the thread.

Rockimook
11-14-2011, 20:00
I carry 2 extra mags for my G30. But I guess it's just where you are from/live. Because yes it's unlikely to be involved in a prolonged shoot-out in Wal-mart parking lot after some junkie tried to rob you with a knife. But where I'm from it's not unlikely to be sitting on the porch, playing basketball, or be walking to the corner store and end up ducking bullets because you are too close to the wrong person, playing basketball with the wrong person, or in the store with the wrong person. I know the bullet may not be meant for you, but they are coming your way and you can easily be the innocent bystander or eye witness that the shooter does not want to let live to tell their story. For that reason I'll rather have too much in that 1 in 1000000 situation than not enough.

ncglock19
11-14-2011, 20:28
As my instructor told me. What happens if you have an equipment malfunction? TWO is ONE, and ONE is NONE.

Be prepared. Something goes wrong with that first mag, you have a spare.

nc19

nastytrigger
11-14-2011, 20:39
I carry one spare mag on my belt when I carry. Total of 31rds when I carry my Glock 19 or Beretta 92FS. 27rds when I carry my Glock 21. 17rds when I carry my SA 1911.

Lately, I've gone small, carrying a Taurus snubby revolver. Only get 5rds of .38 +P and I have five more in a speedloader, so that's only 10rds.

Sometimes I'll pocket carry the revolver as a BUG while carrying an auto on my hip.

I like capacity, but I've weighed my options and think concealing a smaller, lighter, mouse gun is easier for me, but still better than nothing.

Mr.Reignman
11-14-2011, 20:49
Sometimes these discussions are good. Sometimes the devolve into critisizing others actions. I do not mean to do that.
carry what you want, and don't let some internet voice bother you.

what i REALLY find funny is people who will whine about weight/bulk. Now, i know that the following statement is not ALWAYS true, but its OFTEN true: complaining about the weight of a magazine, gun, blade, ect is a little foolish when on average most are carrying an EXTRA UNEEDED ( and I am a fan of having deposits for survival's sake) 5# to 50# or more of lard.
I am in the proces of losing, but i also am active, until some tendonitis kicked in i was running 3 miles several times a week.
Regular exersize also makes the gun light as a feather. i really don't care how fat your a@@ is as long as you can MOVE your a@@...other than that its slowing you down, and that is bad for survival.
Mobility strenght and endurance are part of the equasion too.

Sorry to interupt the thread.


I struggle at times with back pain from carrying and agree with your post..... I can handle the extra weight and discomfort if it can prolong my life and give me piece of mind.

xmanhockey7
11-14-2011, 23:30
Why not carry extra mags. Never know how many shots you will need. Glock 22 15+1 + 2 15 round mags.

dhkaiser
11-15-2011, 04:20
If anyone can send me a link to a single story of a SD situation involving an average civilian* CCW outside of their home** running out of ammo or requiring a reload, I'll re-consider my faith in revolvers.




Massad Ayoob
Ameican Handgunner
July/August 2009

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0BTT/is_4_33/ai_n31877381/

12smile
11-15-2011, 05:14
Talk to someone who has been in a shooting. I am sure their answer will make you want to carry a spare mag.

I was in a 30 second long defensive shooting incident.
I emptied the mag.Hit the guy once in the chest and he fled.

I fired till the gun went click. (6+1)

I had a spare mag, If there were accomplices I would have needed the second mag.

I think most would empty the mag in a life threatening emergency. the second mag would be for additional bad guys.

Ahmid
11-15-2011, 05:31
When I carried an auto loader in my younger days I always brought along an extra magazine. If I was back in the boonies of Tennnessee I carried a full belt of magazines. Now that I usually just carry a revolverI have a spare speed strip..
I agree with Wolf in his thinking...

hamster
11-15-2011, 06:37
Massad Ayoob
Ameican Handgunner
July/August 2009

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0BTT/is_4_33/ai_n31877381/

Nice try, but even in that situation. The single magazine (6+1) was enough to defend a store full of civilians.

The marine did reload, but by the time he had done so the robbers had already fled the scene.

hamster
11-15-2011, 06:40
I just posted one.

Um no. The story you posted featured a "security professional" who was actively trying to aprehend a suspect. After his glock locked the slide back, he charged the position of the armed suspect to try to disarm him. IMO this is hardly a "civilian" type CCW encounter. In a civilian SD encounter, the first chance you get to flee you flee. If you want to play rambo like this guy, then by all means carry 600 extra mags and an AR.

talmadgeharper
11-15-2011, 07:03
I think you just converted me to 10mm, what grain/manufacturer bullet is that? I was always under the incorrect assumption that 10mm would over penetrate. That expansion is incredible I had no idea the 10mm could perfrom so spectacular. I wonder why more people don't use it.

And just when you thought it was safe to go back into the water... "Jaws 15" coming to a theater near you...

...Yup, there have been a couple of these types of threads.




It is my humble opinion that if you carry a gun, you should carry at least one spare magazine / reload. If for no other reason than; "It is better to have and not need, than to need and not have."

What if while your out and about, you do have a need to pull out your pistol and fire a few shots to save your own life... with out a reload, what do you put in the gun for the trip home? There are many reason why I carry spare magazines, but you have to put some thought into why you carry in the first place, especially if you are questioning the idea of having spare ammo, on your person, for your self defense tool.


This is my EDC;

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v378/Wolf_Spyder/JW7E2583small.jpg

And this is why I carry a 10mm;

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v378/Wolf_Spyder/IMG_0402_0403enhancedcroppedsmall.jpg

The 9mm expanded to 1/2 an inch, the 10mm expanded to 1.20 inches. So, the 10mm tripled in diameter, and hits with twice the kinetic energy.





Food for thought.

you can never have enough loaded magazines...

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v378/Wolf_Spyder/JW7E2578small.jpg

jellis11
11-15-2011, 07:15
I have a spare for the g26. Sometimes I won't take it but usually it's at least in the vehicle.

tommytrauma
11-15-2011, 07:38
It's interesting how a lot of the arguments against carrying an extra mag sound exactly like the arguments against concealed carry, and amazing how condescending some people can get about a pretty benign subject.

Carrying a firearm whenever I leave the house is only prudent, but carrying a second mag makes me a Rambo wannabe. Got it.

John Rambo
11-15-2011, 07:42
It's interesting how a lot of the arguments against carrying an extra mag sound exactly like the arguments against concealed carry, and amazing how condescending some people can get about a pretty benign subject.

Carrying a firearm whenever I leave the house is only prudent, but carrying a second mag makes me a Rambo wannabe. Got it.

Nah, I don't carry a second mag.

hamster
11-15-2011, 07:51
It's interesting how a lot of the arguments against carrying an extra mag sound exactly like the arguments against concealed carry, and amazing how condescending some people can get about a pretty benign subject.

Carrying a firearm whenever I leave the house is only prudent, but carrying a second mag makes me a Rambo wannabe. Got it.

The difference is, the arguments against concealed carry centered around people wanting to ban the practice. Nobody here is saying you shouldn't be allowed to carry as many mags as you want. The issue here is how useful is it.

If you feel more comfortable carrying 2, 3, 4 or 5 extra mags then more power to you... I just like to point out that in the entire history of civilian self defense encounters there isn't a single documented case of a civilian in a true SD situation firing a single shot from a "second" mag.

boomhower
11-15-2011, 07:55
Most of the time for magazine failure more than ammo quantity.

H&K 4 LIFE
11-15-2011, 08:04
I always carry spare ammo with me for my carry gun. If it's an auto, that means a spare magazine and if it's a revolver that means extra ammo in a speed strip.

Reasons why (some have been mentioned)...

1. More ammo, and more ammo means you have more options.

2. The magazine is a failure point, and many stoppages are magazine related.

3. The weight of the spare magazine carried on the support side somewhat helps balance the weight of the gun being carried on the strong side.

4. Unexpected things can happen in a fight, and if the magazine is accidentally ejected from the pistol I am not going to bend over and try to find it to put it back in the gun, just simply goto the spare.

tommytrauma
11-15-2011, 08:20
Nah, I don't carry a second mag.

Yeah, but you haul that big ass knife everywhere you go.

hamster
11-15-2011, 08:22
I always carry spare ammo with me for my carry gun. If it's an auto, that means a spare magazine and if it's a revolver that means extra ammo in a speed strip.

Reasons why (some have been mentioned)...

1. More ammo, and more ammo means you have more options.

2. The magazine is a failure point, and many stoppages are magazine related.

3. The weight of the spare magazine carried on the support side somewhat helps balance the weight of the gun being carried on the strong side.

4. Unexpected things can happen in a fight, and if the magazine is accidentally ejected from the pistol I am not going to bend over and try to find it to put it back in the gun, just simply goto the spare.


All very good reasons to carry a NY Reload instead. :)

eaglefrq
11-15-2011, 09:15
In the early 90's, I was talking with a friend of mine who was a Memphis PD officer, about panic shooting. John told me about an incident that happened at at local golf course.

An off-duty police officer and a friend were playing a round of golf when they heard a noise in the nearby tree line and saw a guy with a golf club. They dismissed it as a golfer looking for his ball. The officer was getting ready for his next shot, when his friend looked up, and the guy was coming out of the trees with a sawed off shotgun. The officer ran to the cart and pulled his weapon from his bag as the bad guy pointed the shotgun at the officer. The officer started firing and walked 15 rounds into the ground to the suspect, hitting him in the leg with the last round.

Yes, this was a trained police officer, but he was completely caught off guard.

ETA: I found the article, but I would have to subscribe ($) to pull it up. It was in the Commercial Appeal 24 February 1993

rohanreginald
11-15-2011, 10:28
I was in a 30 second long defensive shooting incident.
I emptied the mag.Hit the guy once in the chest and he fled.

I fired till the gun went click. (6+1)

I had a spare mag, If there were accomplices I would have needed the second mag.

I think most would empty the mag in a life threatening emergency. the second mag would be for additional bad guys.


I have talked to a few guys who have been in similar situations. They all said the same thing. The mag in the gun gets emptied. What happens after that? What if there are two guys and you empty your gun shooting at just one. I tend to listen when people talk. I carry a spare mag.

I know one guy that was car jacked by three thugs. He emptied his gun in one of the guys, the other two thankfully fled, because my buddy didn't have any more bullets.

I just heard this story from an ex marine. He was at a McDonalds when a thug pulled a gun and demanded money. The thug then jumped over the counter and took cash from the registers. When the thug was jumping back over again to flee, the old Marine emptied seven .45 slugs in the bad guy and didn't have anything to reload with.

Wolf Spyder
11-15-2011, 16:41
Nope. Bet you have a bunker under your back yard too. LOL
Dave


Dave, we don't talk about the bunker in my back yard, as my daughter would say; "Shhhhh... It's in the invisible box..."







Damn thats depressing.......( I carry 9mm now)


I get the feeling, ...not for much longer.

To be honest, the 9mm is a fine cartridge, and if I had to carry it as an issued sidearm... I would. When instructing new shooters, I start them with a .22 and then move up to a 9mm, before letting them try bigger & more powerful cartridges. Lets face it, a 1/2 inch whole in your body is nothing to laugh about.






I agree with Wolf in his thinking...


It is not mine to claim, logical is logical, no matter who you are. To me it just makes sense. Why limit your options? If you can carry more ammo... why not carry more ammo?







I think you just converted me to 10mm...,


I hope so. The 10mm is a great cartridge, and the Glock 20 / 29 are great handguns. Of course there are Colt Delta Elites, Dan Wesson Razorbacks, Kimber's, CZ 75's, and a few others out there to choose from. I happen to like 15 +1 followed by 15 more, followed by 15 more, followed by... well you get the point.







....what grain/manufacturer bullet is that?


The 9mm is typical of most 9mm JHP's. The 10mm is a Speer 165 grain Gold Dot JHP handloaded with 10.2 grains of IMR 800-X. The Speer Gold Dot is a bonded bullet and it really opens up nice in our water jug tests. I say "our", because several of us here on Glock Talk have been working up loads over at the 10 Ring forum, using IMR 800-X. I have to give a shout to 21Carrier, because he was the one who got me interested in IMR 800-X. He has a sticky over in either the 10 Ring forum, or the 10mm Reloading forum with some great information.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v378/Wolf_Spyder/IMG_0406enhancedsmall.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v378/Wolf_Spyder/IMG_0386enhancedsmall.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v378/Wolf_Spyder/IMG_0440enhancedsmall.jpg








I was always under the "incorrect" assumption that 10mm would over penetrate.


Nope, both the 165 grain Gold Dots were recovered from the second water jug. The factory Winchester 175 grain Silver Tip JHP was also recovered from the second water jug. Most folks assume that the 10mm will over penetrate, kinda like some folks assume they won't ever need more than the bullets in their gun...








That expansion is incredible I had no idea the 10mm could perform so spectacular. I wonder why more people don't use it.


More and more people are beginning to realize the potential of the 10mm cartridge. Look at the .357 Magnum, it took more than 20 years before it became popular.








It's interesting how a lot of the arguments against carrying an extra mag sound exactly like the arguments against concealed carry, and amazing how condescending some people can get about a pretty benign subject.

** WARNING SARCASM ALERT **
Carrying a firearm whenever I leave the house is only prudent, but carrying a second magazine makes me a Rambo wannabe. Got it.


I love Sarcasm...




Nah, I don't carry a second mag.




Yeah, but you haul that big ass knife everywhere you go.


Well, that... and the M-60 is a 7.62 NATO, 200 round, belt fed, machine gun... that seemingly never needs reloading. So with the big ass knife I think you have things well under control.


Take it from me... You can never have too many fully loaded magazines.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v378/Wolf_Spyder/JW7E2578small.jpg

BailRecoveryAgent
11-15-2011, 16:49
Nobody here is saying you shouldn't be allowed to carry as many mags as you want. The issue here is how useful is it.

Just like a gun, a spare mag is useless until you need it, then its a must have. A spare mag takes up little room on the belt, adds a minimal amount of extra weight to your belt, and doesn't make concealment any harder unless you dress like a figure skater, so the better question is "why not carry a spare mag?"

Outdoor Hub mobile, the outdoor information engine

denn1911
11-15-2011, 23:08
While off-duty, I always carry an extra mag. It doesn't weigh me down or get in the way. I don't see any disadvantage for me to carry it.

Sheepdog Scout
11-16-2011, 01:13
Yeah, but you haul that big ass knife everywhere you go.

It's for hunting.

talon
11-16-2011, 02:17
Forbidden Topics. Hmm I like the sound of that. I vote that the "extra mag" topic should be forbidden and simply referred to a sticky and closed.

Darn I feel old, sorry.

Glockworks
11-16-2011, 03:09
Extra mag? If you went through all the scenarios that you might need something, you would have to bring it all along in a Semi Truck. Whats your level of paranoia? Do whatever. :dunno:
Dave

I suppose you do not have a fire extinguisher anywhere around your home or carry fire insurance either? If you do, you must be paranoid, right? Oh please....:upeyes:

Toorop
11-16-2011, 06:43
I suppose you do not have a fire extinguisher anywhere around your home or carry fire insurance either? If you do, you must be paranoid, right? Oh please....:upeyes:

What kind of AED do you carry with you? And in your first aid kit, what did you put on it?

eclark53520
11-16-2011, 06:51
I do not carry an extra mag on me. Not because i think it will make me look like Rambo, or that it's not a good idea, I just don't carry one.

tacops5372
11-16-2011, 06:51
Better to have it and not need it. Then need it and not have it. :whistling:

Sam Spade
11-16-2011, 07:02
Seems like some people are relying on the other guys' lack of skill and resolve to solve the problem. Nothing good come of that.

Most people never need to draw a gun. Go unarmed, you're prepared for most of life.

Most people with guns solve their problems by the mere display of the firearm, never firing a shot. Carry an Airsoft, you're prepared for most "gunfights" and the vast majority of life.

Somehow, that doesn't seem to work, does it? So maybe if you study the actual patterns of violence around you, you can come to a more applicable conclusion. Personally, I wouldn't neglect those police and security shootings in your studies. Not because I'm a cop, and not because I think your job is to hunt bad people, but because I realize those same bad people will sometimes hunt you.

hamster
11-16-2011, 07:14
So maybe if you study the actual patterns of violence around you, you can come to a more applicable conclusion. Personally, I wouldn't neglect those police and security shootings in your studies.

Thats how I came to my conclusion that my 13+1 in my G23 is enough for ME to carry. If you want to carry an extra mag then sure, why not.

For me, carry is about self defense and buying myself enough time to escape a situation safely.

Carry for me is not about playing cop and apprehending a suspect. There has not been a single case of civilian self defense ever (at least that I have seen) where a second mag was needed and or used. The one case of the security guard that was pointed out in this thread featured a fellow who choose to not escape but rather to try to apprehend the bad guy. While admirable this isn't what I consider to be in the normal prevue of civilian carry.


For me the key is to carry as much as legally possible. With my mag in the G23 I feel I can do that. Adding more heavy equipment to the equation simply isn't worth it given the odds.

The odds of me being attacked and needing to defend myself may be small, but they are reasonable. The odds of me needing more than 13+1 are so astronomically small that I choose not to bother. Again, if anyone can show me a single case of a civilian actually USING a reload outside of their home then I'll change my mind.

tommytrauma
11-16-2011, 07:23
What kind of AED do you carry with you? And in your first aid kit, what did you put on it?

An AED is ~$1000, is a tad heavier than a spare mag and doesn't fit in a pocket. In contrast, most of us already have a spare mag laying loose and it takes up about as much room as a cell phone. I see where you got there from the post you were responding to, but the analogy isn't very apt.

TangoFoxtrot
11-16-2011, 07:24
any purpose to carrying an extra mag? Absolutely! Mechanical failures happen all the time with mags. You never know what may happen that may require needing that extra mag. Besides for the little bit of extra weight on your belt ..why not.

tommytrauma
11-16-2011, 07:30
Thats how I came to my conclusion that my 13+1 in my G23 is enough for ME to carry. If you want to carry an extra mag then sure, why not.

For me, carry is about self defense and buying myself enough time to escape a situation safely.

Carry for me is not about playing cop and apprehending a suspect. There has not been a single case of civilian self defense ever (at least that I have seen) where a second mag was needed and or used. The one case of the security guard that was pointed out in this thread featured a fellow who choose to not escape but rather to try to apprehend the bad guy. While admirable this isn't what I consider to be in the normal prevue of civilian carry.


For me the key is to carry as much as legally possible. With my mag in the G23 I feel I can do that. Adding more heavy equipment to the equation simply isn't worth it given the odds.

The odds of me being attacked and needing to defend myself may be small, but they are reasonable. The odds of me needing more than 13+1 are so astronomically small that I choose not to bother. Again, if anyone can show me a single case of a civilian actually USING a reload outside of their home then I'll change my mind.

I need to retrieve a book from a friend before I can quote details, but I'll post the account of the civilian who happened to be going to or from the range (haven't read the account in years) when he happened upon a cop in trouble and expended several mags keeping the bad guy at bay until other LEOs arrived. It's detailed in 'The Best Defense' by Robert Waters. IIRC, there were a couple other accounts that fit the bill in that book as well.

hamster
11-16-2011, 07:41
I need to retrieve a book from a friend before I can quote details, but I'll post the account of the civilian who happened to be going to or from the range (haven't read the account in years) when he happened upon a cop in trouble and expended several mags keeping the bad guy at bay until other LEOs arrived. It's detailed in 'The Best Defense' by Robert Waters. IIRC, there were a couple other accounts that fit the bill in that book as well.


Thanks, I'd be interested in seeing that. However, as admirable as helping out a cop in trouble is, I'm fairly certain that falls under the category of playing cop. If I were going to essentially act as a cop, I'd surely want to take extra mags and a vest while I'm at it.

glockman513
11-16-2011, 07:46
Let me get this straight . . .
If you carry . . .

A gun = prepared.
A gun and a spare mag = paranoid.

Really??????

hamster
11-16-2011, 07:58
Let me get this straight . . .
If you carry . . .

A gun = prepared.
A gun and a spare mag = paranoid.

Really??????

IMO it is all about statistics.

.05% chance I'll need to defend myself with a gun so I carry and consider myself prepared.

.0000000000000000000001% chance that I'll (as a civilian without a conceal carry badge) need to reload after my 13+1 so I don't carry an extra mag.

It isn't about paranoia, it is about evaluating the odds and figuring out what I'm comfortable with.

69Charger
11-16-2011, 08:03
Let me get this straight . . .
If you carry . . .

A gun = prepared.
A gun and a spare mag = paranoid.

Really??????

Well , yea. To a point.
Dave

glockman513
11-16-2011, 08:20
Well , yea. To a point.
Dave

You should watch the news more. Criminals who are carrying their own guns are starting to work together in pairs more and more often. To each his own I guess. . .

John Rambo
11-16-2011, 08:24
Let me get this straight . . .
If you carry . . .

A gun = prepared.
A gun and a spare mag = paranoid.

Really??????

We've been over this at least half a dozen times.

Normal, rational people reason using statistics. Statistically, you stand a better chance of needing conductive clothing to survive a lightning strike or those defib paddles to restart your heart than needing a reload. Do you carry either of the aforementioned objects?

So, yes paranoid. There is a definition for the word paranoid. Carrying an extra magazine when there has never been a recorded case of a civilian in a SD situation needing one that you can cite fits that definition. Hence, you would be paranoid for doing so.

Sam Spade
11-16-2011, 08:53
The guys looking at patterns of shootings where they're going are doing it right.

The guys cherry-picking shootings--by excluding LE shots, for example--are doing it wrong.

The question does not revolve around the occupation of the shooter. The question revolves around the actions of the bad guy. And I will tell you without hesitation that the bad guys being engaged by US cops are the same bad guys with the same weapons and intent that are being engaged by US civilians. (Don't go there.) Would you accept as valid the argument that Joe Citizen doesn't need high-caps or full-caps because he's not a cop? I should hope not.

Statistics are great, but only if the right question is asked. Otherwise, embrace being disarmed, because statistics say so and you're obviously paranoid if you carry.

hamster
11-16-2011, 09:01
The guys looking at patterns of shootings where they're going are doing it right.

The guys cherry-picking shootings--by excluding LE shots, for example--are doing it wrong.

The question does not revolve around the occupation of the shooter. The question revolves around the actions of the bad guy. And I will tell you without hesitation that the bad guys being engaged by US cops are the same bad guys with the same weapons and intent that are being engaged by US civilians. (Don't go there.) Would you accept as valid the argument that Joe Citizen doesn't need high-caps or full-caps because he's not a cop? I should hope not.

Statistics are great, but only if the right question is asked. Otherwise, embrace being disarmed, because statistics say so and you're obviously paranoid if you carry.

Sam, please don't conflate someone arguing that something isn't needed with a call for a ban. Nobody in this thread or forum is anti-gun so the repeated insinuation isn't needed. Nobody here has EVER argued that civilians should not be allowed to carry what they want. The purpose of this thread is to define the extent to which it makes sense for a civilian to carry extra mags.

The reason I separate LEO and Civilian carry scenarios is because they are fundamentally different. When a bad guy is trying to mug a civilian, the moment the civilian defends themselves, the bad guy generally flees and the encounter is over.

In a LEO scenario, the bad guy knows that he needs to escape or be apprehended. The LEO is actively chasing the bad guy and going head long into battle.

LEO shooting encounters are by their very nature offensive whereas civilian encounters are defensive. If you really think that we should consider LEO encounter stats as relevant to our civilian lives, then we should all carry full frame pistols, backup guns, bullet proof vests, and shotguns and ARs in our cars.

Every single member of this forum agrees that it makes sense to be armed. The point of this thread is to determine how well armed folks feel they need to be on a daily basis when outside of their homes.

HerrGlock
11-16-2011, 09:30
Yup. I leave one in my jacket pocket on the gun side. The wind has a much harder time blowing my coat open that way.

Oh, and should I ever need it in any other fashion it's there as well.

But generally it keeps my coat from opening when I don't want it to.

glockman513
11-16-2011, 09:33
Yup. I leave one in my jacket pocket on the gun side. The wind has a much harder time blowing my coat open that way.

Oh, and should I ever need it in any other fashion it's there as well.

But generally it keeps my coat from opening when I don't want it to.

also helps balance out the weight of the gun if you carry 2 spare mags

BailRecoveryAgent
11-16-2011, 09:44
Every single member of this forum agrees that it makes sense to be armed.

You sure about that? I seem to read evidence of the contrary quite regularly on this forum. No I won't post thread links to single any members out or alienate anyone.

I have no problem with someone not carrying a gun or much less a spare magazine for it, afterall, we're all responsible for our own safety. If you want to rely on 5 rounds and a cell phone with 911 on speed dial, go for it.

Wolf Spyder
11-16-2011, 10:13
What kind of AED do you carry with you? And in your first aid kit, what did you put on it?


Ummm. I have a complete "First-in-Bag" in my truck along with a Super-D sized "O2" bottle. I also have Vehicle Recovery gear, PPE gear, and a few odds and ins I might need during cold weather. I am an EMT and I'm on the County Special Rescue Team for High Angle, Fast Water, and Confined Space Rescue. Being prepared is a life choice, just like deciding to be armed is a life choice.






The reason I separate LEO and Civilian carry scenarios is because they are fundamentally different. When a bad guy is trying to mug a civilian, the moment the civilian defends themselves, the bad guy generally flees and the encounter is over.

In a LEO scenario, the bad guy knows that he needs to escape or be apprehended. The LEO is actively chasing the bad guy and going head long into battle.

LEO shooting encounters are by their very nature offensive whereas civilian encounters are defensive. If you really think that we should consider LEO encounter stats as relevant to our civilian lives, then we should all carry full frame pistols, backup guns, bullet proof vests, and shotguns and AR's in our cars.

Every single member of this forum agrees that it makes sense to be armed. The point of this thread is to determine how well armed folks feel they need to be on a daily basis when outside of their homes.


I carry a full sized Glock 20 with at least two spare magazines on my person. I have back up magazines for the sidearm as well as a Level IIIA vest and an M4-gery style AR15 with a half dozen Pmag magazines in my truck along with a "Get Home Bag" for use in the event of a "Natural Disaster".

Now, I don't think most folks need to carry all the medical gear I do, but everyone should have basic survival stuff in their vehicles as well as a few things to get them home in the event of some sort of natural disaster. Have you ever tried to walk home at night in the dress clothing you wore to the office? For most people a "Get Home Bag" might have a rain jacket, a pair of Reebok's or Nike's, a flash light, a couple of Cliff Bars, and a couple bottles of water. For other folks it might have a few more things. However, everyone should be Prepared.






Seems like some people are relying on the other guys' lack of skill and resolve to solve the problem. Nothing good come of that.

Most people never need to draw a gun. Go unarmed, you're prepared for most of life.

Most people with guns solve their problems by the mere display of the firearm, never firing a shot. Carry an Airsoft, you're prepared for most "gunfights" and the vast majority of life.

Somehow, that doesn't seem to work, does it? So maybe if you study the actual patterns of violence around you, you can come to a more applicable conclusion. Personally, I wouldn't neglect those police and security shootings in your studies. Not because I'm a cop, and not because I think your job is to hunt bad people, but because I realize those same bad people will sometimes hunt you.


Awesome post.

Leigh
11-16-2011, 10:47
Carrying an extra magazine when there has never been a recorded case of a civilian in a SD situation needing one that you can cite fits that definition.


Never been a recorded case? Never? Ever?

I do know that unless especially newsworthy or grisly, most SD situations do not even make the newspaper.

Unless you spend your time 24/7 scouring every single LE report in the United States, your blanket claim cannot be validated.

It's akin to saying, "I've never seen alien life, therefore alien life does not exist."

mhunter
11-16-2011, 10:48
I've been watching "The Walking Dead". I'm going to start carrying TEN spare mags! :rofl:

hamster
11-16-2011, 10:50
Never been a recorded case? Never? Ever?

I do know that unless especially newsworthy or grisly, most SD situations do not even make the newspaper.

Unless you spend your time 24/7 scouring every single LE report in the United States, your blanket claim cannot be validated.

It's akin to saying, "I've never seen alien life, therefore alien life does not exist."

I have repeatedly asked for someone, anyone to produce a single incident. So far I haven't seen one. Surely with thousands of glocktalkers each reading hundreds of news stories someone would have come across at least one story if extended multi-magazine gunfights with super-criminals was a major problem facing CCWers.

Again I issue the challenge... find me a single shred of evidence that any civilian carrying outside their home has ever fired a single bullet from their spare magazine or their spare speedloader while defending themselves.

There are literally hundreds of cases of armed citizens defending themselves with firearms, a dozen appear in every issue of American Rifleman. The case to be armed is very clear. The need to carry additional mags seems to be less clear. But by all means, if you want to carry spare mags then do... but please don't imply it would be foolish not to carry spare mags since there is just no evidence supporting that view.

RedDirt
11-16-2011, 10:51
Better to have it and not need it than need it and not have it

legallyarmed
11-16-2011, 10:53
Kinda. In my car anyway.

Leigh
11-16-2011, 10:59
I have no problem with someone not carrying a gun or much less a spare magazine for it, afterall, we're all responsible for our own safety.

Nor do I.

I do find it odd that "some" of the unarmed crowd would actually show up on sites like GT to offer their baseless opinions to the contrary.

Do you carry CCW? Good. I'll read your opinion on carrying a second magazine or reload.

Don't choose to carry for reasons other than state legalities? You have zero credibility and I really don't care what you have to say.

Last time I checked, GT is a pro-gun forum.

Leigh
11-16-2011, 11:08
I ... but please don't imply it would be foolish not to carry spare mags since there is just no evidence supporting that view.

I guess my question is why does someone need to see statistics in order to validate a personal choice? I don't.

I'm not saying by not carrying a reload or spare magazine makes a person foolish at all.

I would argue that carrying one may be potentially more prudent than not but that doesn't require me seeing something in print or case law to believe to be accurate.

Sam Spade
11-16-2011, 11:11
Sam, please don't conflate someone arguing that something isn't needed with a call for a ban. Nobody in this thread or forum is anti-gun so the repeated insinuation isn't needed. Nobody here has EVER argued that civilians should not be allowed to carry what they want. The purpose of this thread is to define the extent to which it makes sense for a civilian to carry extra mags.

I put that in there to show the error in the reasoning, not to advocate legislation. I tried to get there with "would you accept the argument"; sorry if I wasn't clear.

The reason I separate LEO and Civilian carry scenarios is because they are fundamentally different. When a bad guy is trying to mug a civilian, the moment the civilian defends themselves, the bad guy generally flees and the encounter is over.

In a LEO scenario, the bad guy knows that he needs to escape or be apprehended. The LEO is actively chasing the bad guy and going head long into battle.

LEO shooting encounters are by their very nature offensive whereas civilian encounters are defensive. If you really think that we should consider LEO encounter stats as relevant to our civilian lives, then we should all carry full frame pistols, backup guns, bullet proof vests, and shotguns and ARs in our cars.

Every single member of this forum agrees that it makes sense to be armed. The point of this thread is to determine how well armed folks feel they need to be on a daily basis when outside of their homes.
I think you're miscategorizing LE shootings. The majority of them--the ones outside of SWAT entries or felony stops--are reactive in nature, not proactive. That type of save-your-life shooting, reacting to a sudden lethal threat, is IMO on-point for planning your own defense. Those, BTW, don't involve long guns. I agree with you that those tools are more proactive in nature.

Can you be ambushed in a drive-by? Can you be on a hike and stumble into a marijuana grow? Can your store be the target for a take-down robbery? If those bangers, dopers and robbers are an issue for the cops in your community, then they're likely an issue for your planning.

For myself in Southern AZ, when I'm off duty I carry a full frame auto, a high cap reload and OC. A second gun depends on some stuff that we needn't bother with here. That's based on what I *know* about the patterns of encounters in my little slice of heaven. Your area may be different, and that's okay.

John Rambo
11-16-2011, 11:15
I guess my question is why does someone needs to see statistics in order to validate a personal choice? I don't.


Because that is how rational people make rational decisions. Why is this so hard to understand?


I'm not saying by not carrying a reload or spare magazine makes a person foolish at all.

I would argue that carrying one may be potentially more prudent than not but that doesn't require me seeing something in print or case law to believe to be accurate.

So does carrying rubber boots, a defib unit, Nitro pills, a fire blanket, a spare engine, transmission, battery, alternator, and fuel for your vehicle, a spare cellphone, a spare wallet with copies of all of your cards....you get the idea.

Nobody is saying you can't. Nobody is saying you shouldn't. We're just saying you're paranoid for doing so. I don't know how much more I can drive this point home. Understanding the likelyhood of things is how normal people make choices in their day to day lives. Its part of a logical throught process. You have willfully and knowingly deviated from that thought process. That makes you paranoid.

RussP
11-16-2011, 11:16
We've been over this at least half a dozen times.

Normal, rational people reason using statistics. Statistically, you stand a better chance of needing conductive clothing to survive a lightning strike or those defib paddles to restart your heart than needing a reload. Do you carry either of the aforementioned objects?

So, yes paranoid. There is a definition for the word paranoid. Carrying an extra magazine when there has never been a recorded case of a civilian in a SD situation needing one that you can cite fits that definition. Hence, you would be paranoid for doing so.Well Mr. Rambo, have you ever been told that there's little or no chance of anyone shooting at you, that "No one's ever reported being shot at there," only to have someone almost blow your head off ten minutes later where "it's never happened before"?

Well, I have, and it made a believer out of me that Murphy's Law is real and statistics, like ROE, can get a good guy killed.

Now, you've made your personal decision about what and how to carry. Other people disagree with the decision you made, but they do not demean that personal choice of yours. How about some mutual respect.

John Rambo
11-16-2011, 11:18
The guys looking at patterns of shootings where they're going are doing it right.

The guys cherry-picking shootings--by excluding LE shots, for example--are doing it wrong.

The question does not revolve around the occupation of the shooter. The question revolves around the actions of the bad guy. And I will tell you without hesitation that the bad guys being engaged by US cops are the same bad guys with the same weapons and intent that are being engaged by US civilians. (Don't go there.) Would you accept as valid the argument that Joe Citizen doesn't need high-caps or full-caps because he's not a cop? I should hope not.

Statistics are great, but only if the right question is asked. Otherwise, embrace being disarmed, because statistics say so and you're obviously paranoid if you carry.

Yeah, exactly. Except for the fact that the characteristics of SD and police/military gunfights are so glaringly dissimilar that you'd be reaching at best to try and lump them in together. Its like trying to lump in a Ferrari with a Civic; they're both cars, right?

The two are separated because they are different. You can say all you want about them, but once again, STATISTICS prove that they are different. Statistics trump your posts on Glocktalk, your gut feelings, and even what you think is 'commonsense'. Statistics prove what has happened and hence what is likely to continue happening. Statistics say SD encounters don't benefit from a reload.

John Rambo
11-16-2011, 11:19
Well Mr. Rambo, have you ever been told that there's little or no chance of anyone shooting at you, that "No one's ever reported being shot at there," only to have someone almost blow your head off ten minutes later where "it's never happened before"?

Well, I have, and it made a believer out of me that Murphy's Law is real and statistics, like ROE, can get a good guy killed.

Now, you've made your personal decision about what and how to carry. Other people disagree with the decision you made, but they do not demean that personal choice of yours. How about some mutual respect.

I'm not disrespecting anyone. I'm attempting to get people to self-actualize on this topic. Its paranoia. Plain and simple. I'm not insulting anyone, I'm just stating a fact. If you want to be paranoid and carry a reload, or 10 reloads and 2 BUGs, go for it. I've got nothing bad to say about you for it. But it is what it is. You're paranoid for doing it.

Sam Spade
11-16-2011, 11:23
I guess my question is why does someone need to see statistics in order to validate a personal choice? I don't.

Because that is how rational people make rational decisions. Why is this so hard to understand?

Please tell me the round count at which a "rational decision" alters to "paranoid". Since it's a rational decision in your book, you ought to be able to provide an objective answer.

Confusing, since you call a G19 "rational" at 15+1, but a 1911 "paranoid" at 7+1+7. Should a 5+0 J-frame be the standard? A 2+0 derringer?

Sam Spade
11-16-2011, 11:28
Yeah, exactly. Except for the fact that the characteristics of SD and police/military gunfights are so glaringly dissimilar that you'd be reaching at best to try and lump them in together. Its like trying to lump in a Ferrari with a Civic; they're both cars, right?

The two are separated because they are different. You can say all you want about them, but once again, STATISTICS prove that they are different. Statistics trump your posts on Glocktalk, your gut feelings, and even what you think is 'commonsense'. Statistics prove what has happened and hence what is likely to continue happening. Statistics say SD encounters don't benefit from a reload.

As I said above, you're mischaracterizing police shootings. It's especially glaring because here you've chosen to lump them with military shootings. Overwhelmingly, police shootings are *not* the proactive here-comes-the-gunfight scenario. Overwhelmingly, they are *not* the "use the gun to enforce the law" scenario. They are overwhelmingly reactive save-your-own-life shooting that mirror the people, the weapons, the times and distances and the goals that are faced by Joe Citizen.

Until you accept this---and there's no wiggle room on it, it's what it is---your use of "statistics" amounts to cherry picking.

Leigh
11-16-2011, 11:32
Maybe a quick trip to Webster's is in order...

Paranoia means an extreme or irrational fear or mistrust of others. Paranoia has zero to do with "deviating" from any thought process.

My thinking that my weapon/magazine has the potential to malfunction is far from irrational.

I've been shooting handguns for 35+ years and yes, I've seen many failures and many of them were indeed, magazine-related.

And no, not every rational individual bases every single life decision on either likelihood of events nor statistics, They never have and they never will.

You are not "driving any points home", you are merely stating your opinion and I am stating mine.

You believe your opinion is correct as do I of mine.

After 10+ years of CCW, I'll continue to carry those 5 extra rounds, just in case.

John Rambo
11-16-2011, 11:34
Please tell me the round count at which a "rational decision" alters to "paranoid". Since it's a rational decision in your book, you ought to be able to provide an objective answer.


The average number of rounds fired seems to be reported as 3. There is a 1/100 or 1/200 chance, I forget which (long time since I researched) that you'll be the victim of a violent crime each year in America - those rates of course vary when you factor in your city rather than America's aggregate crime rate. Every round you carry over 3, therefor, is exponentally (because in addition to having to use the multiplier for average number of shots, you have to use the .01 or .005 multiplier for the chance of being the victim of a violent crime) less likely to be used.


Confusing, since you call a G19 "rational" at 15+1, but a 1911 "paranoid" at 7+1+7. Should a 5+0 J-frame be the standard? A 2+0 derringer?

I have not called any specific weapons rational or irrational and would appreciate it if you did not make such claims until I do.

I keep my weapon fully loaded at 7+1 because it helps with the balance of it when I'm holding it and if I'm already carrying the weapon, there is absolutely no cons to keeping it loaded to capacity. It doesn't take any extra steps, it doesn't add additional objects to worry about, it doesn't add any extra failure points, it doesn't require any more dilligence on my part. Its just there.

Now, based on the fact that 3 is the average number, if you're preparing for a violent encounter by carrying, having a weapon with only 2 rounds would, statistically, make you underprepared.

John Rambo
11-16-2011, 11:38
As I said above, you're mischaracterizing police shootings. It's especially glaring because here you've chosen to lump them with military shootings. Overwhelmingly, police shootings are *not* the proactive here-comes-the-gunfight scenario. Overwhelmingly, they are *not* the "use the gun to enforce the law" scenario. They are overwhelmingly reactive save-your-own-life shooting that mirror the people, the weapons, the times and distances and the goals that are faced by Joe Citizen.

Until you accept this---and there's no wiggle room on it, it's what it is---your use of "statistics" amounts to cherry picking.

Okay, so then explain the difference between number of rounds fired in self-defense shootings and the number of rounds fired in police shootings. You're attempting to lump the two statistics together, so the burdeon of proof is on you to explain HOW this statistical anomoly exists. Police fire a lot more rounds than people in self-defense shootings. And thats a FACT. You must now explain that fact and somehow manage to do so in a way that supports your arguement of lumping the two together.

MARKDANIEL
11-16-2011, 11:41
I dont remember his name but Mr. Ayoob wrote about a jewerler who needed more than a few reloads in his jewerly store. I think it was in Los Angles and he was robbed several times.

RussP
11-16-2011, 11:43
Well Mr. Rambo, have you ever been told that there's little or no chance of anyone shooting at you, that "No one's ever reported being shot at there," only to have someone almost blow your head off ten minutes later where "it's never happened before"?I'm not disrespecting anyone. I'm attempting to get people to self-actualize on this topic. Its paranoia. Plain and simple. I'm not insulting anyone, I'm just stating a fact. If you want to be paranoid and carry a reload, or 10 reloads and 2 BUGs, go for it. I've got nothing bad to say about you for it. But it is what it is. You're paranoid for doing it.You did not answer the question.

Vanman2004b
11-16-2011, 11:46
I have repeatedly asked for someone, anyone to produce a single incident. So far I haven't seen one. Surely with thousands of glocktalkers each reading hundreds of news stories someone would have come across at least one story if extended multi-magazine gunfights with super-criminals was a major problem facing CCWers.

Again I issue the challenge... find me a single shred of evidence that any civilian carrying outside their home has ever fired a single bullet from their spare magazine or their spare speedloader while defending themselves.

There are literally hundreds of cases of armed citizens defending themselves with firearms, a dozen appear in every issue of American Rifleman. The case to be armed is very clear. The need to carry additional mags seems to be less clear. But by all means, if you want to carry spare mags then do... but please don't imply it would be foolish not to carry spare mags since there is just no evidence supporting that view.


If a NY reload counts here is an example: http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0BTT/is_156_26/ai_82533205/

TangoFoxtrot
11-16-2011, 11:47
WOW fellas lets not re invent the wheel here. If you feel comfortable carrying an extra mag well by all means do so if not...don't. Its a matter of comfort level. What ever makes you comfortable.

Leigh
11-16-2011, 11:50
Confusing, since you call a G19 "rational" at 15+1, but a 1911 "paranoid" at 7+1+7. Should a 5+0 J-frame be the standard? A 2+0 derringer?

A valid and very relevant statement.

My "standard" is indeed a 15-ounce 5-shot Model 37 Airweight (circa 1982) with factory wood grips (I'm old school).

I own larger capacity autos but this is what I choose to carry on a daily basis.

Would I run out and buy the same revolver if it held 10 rounds? 12 rounds?

You bet!!!

However it is physically impossible to manufacture a 10 round cylinder that is the same size/weight of one that holds 5 rounds.

For the reason of somewhat limited capacity (in relation to size and weight), I choose to carry an additional 5 rounds.

I see no comparison whatsoever to this practice and your own defintion of paranoia other than the statistics that "I'll ony need 3 rounds."

Leigh
11-16-2011, 12:04
WOW fellas lets not re invent the wheel here. If you feel comfortable carrying an extra mag well by all means do so if not...don't. Its a matter of comfort level. What ever makes you comfortable.

Actually, this discussion has evolved into more about someone assigning their own definition of "paranoid" to someone else's choice based on statistics and also assuming that their opinion is simply a fact of life. It is not.

Mr. Rambo's opinion, as anyone's opinion, is just that. it is not law, nor science, nor gospel. It is simply what a person thinks.

As Sam Spade noted, "What is the standard?"

According to Mr. Rambo, the "standard" is one loaded firearm with no reloads or spare magazines for SD.

That is "his" standard but because of such, he interprets anything more to be paranoid.

John Rambo
11-16-2011, 12:04
You did not answer the question.

Yes, of course. But its a moot point. A meteor has never struck your home. Should you go out and buy meteor insurance because it COULD happen?

Earth's atmosphere has never spontaneously turned to Sulfur. Should you go out and buy a self-contained oxygen system for your home because it could happen?

Anything theroretically CAN happen. Its impossible to plan for every contingency. which is where statistics come into play for makign rational decisions.

Toorop
11-16-2011, 12:11
Okay, so then explain the difference between number of rounds fired in self-defense shootings and the number of rounds fired in police shootings. You're attempting to lump the two statistics together, so the burdeon of proof is on you to explain HOW this statistical anomoly exists. Police fire a lot more rounds than people in self-defense shootings. And thats a FACT. You must now explain that fact and somehow manage to do so in a way that supports your arguement of lumping the two together.
Just to point out that when you declare something to be a fact, you should post a cite for it.

Leigh
11-16-2011, 12:17
Anything theroretically CAN happen. Its impossible to plan for every contingency. which is where statistics come into play for makign rational decisions.

OK, my father is 83 years old, has never been violently assaulted, lives in a ruarl community (population 1500) where there are one or two homicides annually. My father does not carry a CCW weapon for SD.

I live in the same community and choose to carry for SD.

You are saying that I am no more or less rational than he is because the "statistics" show such a low rate of homicide?

Sorry, but I feel that relying on pure statistics for decision making is a good way to leave this earth in a premature fashion.

ancient_serpent
11-16-2011, 12:20
OP: Yes, I carry two spares on my support side and two more spares in my Jeep console, two more in my GHB. That is also inside my Jeep.
Ha, ha, paranoid? With all that ammunition, what do I have to be paranoid about? Certainly not about dying for a lack of shooting back...
*edited* People much smarter than I came up with a saying: Two is one, one is none. I think that applies very well to many situations in life, ammunition being one of them. If the statistics were all that important in the decision making process, wouldn't police departments want to save a lot of money and simply issue 5 shot revolvers to their officers and call it a day?

tacops5372
11-16-2011, 12:24
If carrying an extra magazine = paranoid? What do you call the guys who and have a rifle in the trunk of their car?

I say its personal choice!

John Rambo
11-16-2011, 12:24
OK, my father is 83 years old, has never been violently assaulted, lives in a ruarl community (population 1500) where there are one or two homicides annually. My father does not carry a CCW weapon for SD.

I live in the same community and choose to carry for SD.

You are saying that I am no more or less rational than he is because the "statistics" show such a low rate of homicide?

Sorry, but I feel that relying on pure statistics for decision making is a good way to leave this earth in a premature fashion.

Please consider and answer the following in respons eto your statement about relying on statistics:

Why does Glocktalk have a RAID array (guaranteed its got one) for its files and redundant routes through routers along the way to your machine, but only one BIOS onboard?

RussP
11-16-2011, 12:24
Well Mr. Rambo, have you ever been told that there's little or no chance of anyone shooting at you, that "No one's ever reported being shot at there," only to have someone almost blow your head off ten minutes later where "it's never happened before"?I'm not disrespecting anyone. I'm attempting to get people to self-actualize on this topic. Its paranoia. Plain and simple. I'm not insulting anyone, I'm just stating a fact. If you want to be paranoid and carry a reload, or 10 reloads and 2 BUGs, go for it. I've got nothing bad to say about you for it. But it is what it is. You're paranoid for doing it.You did not answer the question.Yes, of course. But its a moot point. A meteor has never struck your home. Should you go out and buy meteor insurance because it COULD happen?

Earth's atmosphere has never spontaneously turned to Sulfur. Should you go out and buy a self-contained oxygen system for your home because it could happen?

Anything theroretically CAN happen. Its impossible to plan for every contingency. which is where statistics come into play for makign rational decisions.You did not answer the question. It is really a yes or no question, either you have or you haven't.

John Rambo
11-16-2011, 12:25
OP: Yes, I carry two spares on my support side and two more spares in my Jeep console, two more in my GHB. That is also inside my Jeep.
Ha, ha, paranoid? With all that ammunition, what do I have to be paranoid about? Certainly not about dying for a lack of shooting back...
*edited* People much smarter than I came up with a saying: Two is one, one is none. I think that applies very well to many situations in life, ammunition being one of them. If the statistics were all that important in the decision making process, wouldn't police departments want to save a lot of money and simply issue 5 shot revolvers to their officers and call it a day?

No, because police encounters tend to use mroe rounds.

John Rambo
11-16-2011, 12:25
You did not answer the question. It is really a yes or no question, either you have or you haven't.

NO, I have not.

Glockdude1
11-16-2011, 12:28
Food for thought.

you can never have enough loaded magazines...

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v378/Wolf_Spyder/JW7E2578small.jpg



:agree:

http://www.andrewsleather.com/stroud.jpg

:cool:

hamster
11-16-2011, 12:28
If a NY reload counts here is an example: http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0BTT/is_156_26/ai_82533205/


There is no doubt that if you own a jewelry store, bank, liquor store, pawn shop, casino, "We buy gold", brothel, or any high value cash rich robbery target you should consider yourself at a higher risk of robbery. I consider home and business defense a distinctly different scenario to "civilian carry"

If you are a jewelry store owner like the guy in the link who has been personally robbed 3 times, then by all means set up a friggin' BMG on the counter because in your case it makes sense.



Sam: If you have a dangerous profession, or know you are going to take a hike though a national forrest full of drug dealers, then yes it behooves you to take an extra mag.

I'm talking about the average civilian going about their daily activities like going to the grocery store to buy a gallon of milk etc. In the end everyone needs to evaluate their own risk profile. For example, in my ordinary life I always carry a G23 at 13+1. If I were to go galavanting through a Grizzly bear reserve I might consider something more substantial for carry. :)


Now that we have that settled, lets turn things around. For those of you who carry spare mags, how many spare mags would you feel comfortable with? For those who carry spare mags not for capacity but for reliability, wouldn't a NY reload make more sense?

BailRecoveryAgent
11-16-2011, 12:31
Yes, of course. But its a moot point. A meteor has never struck your home. Should you go out and buy meteor insurance because it COULD happen?

Earth's atmosphere has never spontaneously turned to Sulfur. Should you go out and buy a self-contained oxygen system for your home because it could happen?

Anything theroretically CAN happen. Its impossible to plan for every contingency. which is where statistics come into play for makign rational decisions.

Please consider and answer the following in respons eto your statement about relying on statistics:

Why does Glocktalk have a RAID array (guaranteed its got one) for its files and redundant routes through routers along the way to your machine, but only one BIOS onboard?


Please continue with more posts like these. They are a little ray of sunshine on a cloudy day.

Jeff82
11-16-2011, 12:37
Planning on an "average" when "outliers" exist is IMO not very bright when dealing with situations of lifesaving/taking severity.

Besides, don't you want to be able to top-off after the fight? Or do you want to be standing there with an empty/near empty gun when defeated gang-bangers' posse rolls up?

RussP
11-16-2011, 12:38
NO, I have not.Do you think that had you, your opinion of "it probably won't happen because it hasn't happened before" might be different?

ancient_serpent
11-16-2011, 12:39
No, because police encounters tend to use mroe rounds.

Not trying to change your mind, because I truly don't care what you carry, but I feel almost compelled to ask...
Is your position that personal defense preparations should be based off of statistics?

hamster
11-16-2011, 12:40
Planning on an "average" when "outliers" exist is IMO not very bright when dealing with situations of lifesaving/taking severity.

Besides, don't you want to be able to top-off after the fight? Or do you want to be standing there with an empty/near empty gun when defeated gang-bangers' posse rolls up?

Do you drive an armored car? If you don't then clearly you don't live by your own logic.

The existence of outliers isn't the issue to consider... I worry about how many standard deviations away from the average those outliers are if I am to worry about them. :)

If we were to plan our lives around the "outliers" rather than the average, we'd never leave the house and just be on glocktalk all day.

wait... nevermind. :)

Sam Spade
11-16-2011, 12:41
Okay, so then explain the difference between number of rounds fired in self-defense shootings and the number of rounds fired in police shootings. You're attempting to lump the two statistics together, so the burdeon of proof is on you to explain HOW this statistical anomoly exists. Police fire a lot more rounds than people in self-defense shootings. And thats a FACT. You must now explain that fact and somehow manage to do so in a way that supports your arguement of lumping the two together.

Sure, let's look at the numbers. And let's look at a bit more than just shots fired:

Distance: Over half of LE shootings take place under 10'. The FBI says that 75% are under 10'.
Lighting: 62% in low-light, according to Metro-Dade.
And average number of shots per officer: 2.86, running from 1988-2001, according to NYPD. LAPD did a similar study in the 1970s showing 2.6. Portland did another study in 1992 showing 2.6 with revolvers, 4.6 with autoloaders. Metro-Dade did a 1994 study showing 2.5 revolvers, 3.2 autoloaders. Thirty years' of data showing remarkable consistency across time and location.


Conclusions: First, I have to say this. John, you don't know what you don't know. You're making assertions that just aren't supported by real life. As such, anything you're doing and calling "statistics" is just wrong. For one thing, police shootings do not fire "a lot" more rounds. Not normally.

Second to the guys looking to make decisions...Generally low light, greatly under 10', usually over in the time it takes to fire 3 shots. How are LE shootings *not* something you want to consider in your defensive planning?

Okay, if you accept that the average LE reactive fight bears some resemblence to what you might face, then how about the LE fights that aren't quite average? Are they worth considering in your planning? SWAT entries, probably not. But bad guy behind cover? An ambush like a drive-by? A church shooting like Assams'? A takedown robbery of your store? It all depends on you, but

xmanhockey7
11-16-2011, 12:41
What's wrong with having extra mag(s) if you want them? If you want to only go armed with 1 mag worth of ammo go for it. If you want to go armed with 10 extra mags go for it. Why should someone else tell you, you have too much firepower? It's not their concern how much ammo you have on you. I like having 2 spare mags on me, and no one will tell me otherwise. I can't believe we have fellow gun owners saying that there is something wrong with having extra mags. I could see it from an antigunner but not other gun owners.

eaglefrq
11-16-2011, 12:43
No, because police encounters tend to use mroe rounds.

There is no doubt that if you own a jewelry store, bank, liquor store, pawn shop, casino, "We buy gold", brothel, or any high value cash rich robbery target you should consider yourself at a higher risk of robbery. I consider home and business defense a distinctly different scenario to "civilian carry"

If you are a jewelry store owner like the guy in the link who has been personally robbed 3 times, then by all means set up a friggin' BMG on the counter because in your case it makes sense.



Sam: If you have a dangerous profession, or know you are going to take a hike though a national forrest full of drug dealers, then yes it behooves you to take an extra mag.

I'm talking about the average civilian going about their daily activities like going to the grocery store to buy a gallon of milk etc. In the end everyone needs to evaluate their own risk profile. For example, in my ordinary life I always carry a G23 at 13+1. If I were to go galavanting through a Grizzly bear reserve I might consider something more substantial for carry. :)


Now that we have that settled, lets turn things around. For those of you who carry spare mags, how many spare mags would you feel comfortable with? For those who carry spare mags not for capacity but for reliability, wouldn't a NY reload make more sense?

I've searched numerous articles regarding civilian SD shootings and so far, there has been no round counts given. Every article I've read either says returned fire or several rounds were fired.

More than likely, you would need to see the police reports to answer your question on a civilian having to reload.

For me, I carry 1 spare magazine on my support side. Because I feel more comfortable with 24 rounds than 12, I don't think that makes me paranoid.

You feel comfortable 13+1 and if that works for you, then go for it.

ancient_serpent
11-16-2011, 12:43
Actually, I take it back. I don't really care enough to continue the conversation with someone of such a position.
Firearms and preparation are what I do for a living. Have been doing so in a capacity different than that of most anybody else.
Carry a spare. Carry two spares. Anyone telling you different is plain wrong. Even if they use unusual text sizes.

RussP
11-16-2011, 12:47
Is this guy paranoid?

http://glocktalk.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=220431&stc=1&d=1321472768

He's carrying a handgun fitted with a suppressor, carrying a couple extra mags, wearing body armor...

BailRecoveryAgent
11-16-2011, 12:52
Is this guy paranoid?

http://glocktalk.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=220431&stc=1&d=1321472768

He's carrying a handgun fitted with a suppressor, carrying a couple extra mags, wearing body armor...

No, its Leonard I pressume. He's looking for attention, a longshot lawsuit for his 2A rights being infringed upon, or possibly to go out by suicide by cop.

hamster
11-16-2011, 12:54
Is this guy paranoid?

http://glocktalk.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=220431&stc=1&d=1321472768

He's carrying a handgun fitted with a suppressor, carrying a couple extra mags, wearing body armor...

If he is going to the local Wendy's to buy a frosty he is paranoid. If he is on security detail for blackwater then he is probably being underprepared.

hamster
11-16-2011, 12:58
For the record, I don't carry any magazines. I only carry "high capacity assault clips" :)

Actually come to think of it, some days I do carry a spare to keep my jacket from flying open from the wind.

Wolf Spyder
11-16-2011, 13:08
Good Grief !!


Stats are just numbers. Look at it this way, the weather man says there is only a 10% chance of rain... but what does that 10% matter if it is already raining? It doesn't matter what the chances are of anything happening, it could be less than 1%, but when it is raining... that less than 1% chance just became a 100% chance that your getting wet! It might only be 0.0001% that you will ever be in an gun fight, but if that day ever comes it went from being 0.0001% to 100% with a quickness.

With all the stuff I carry in my truck, I do not have an AED. The difference between carrying an AED / Defib Unit and a spare magazine for your concealed carry sidearm is this; the AED is to save some one else's life, while the spare magazine is there to save my life. That is how I look at everything I carry on my person or in my truck. Sure I have a "First-in-Bag" in my truck, but it is for when I am the first responder to the scene of an accident. However, I figure it will come in really handy in the event of a natural disaster, so I have one. I might have to administer aid to one of my family members, and during a natural disaster cell phone service to 911 is not likely to be available.

I use my Vehicle Recovery gear every winter. For most folks they will never get stuck in the snow on a cold, snow covered night. The chances for most folks might be less than 1%. But for those very few, it didn't matter how low their chances were, for them it became 100%. Of those folks how many had warm enough clothing at the time? Everyone I have rescued from a snow bank off the side of the road was very glad to see me. They were cold, no extra clothing, just wearing a thin jacket because they were headed to the store or a friends house and didn't think they would need it. Being prepared is a life choice.

So, when you belittle someone as being paranoid for carrying an extra magazine, or having the sense to be prepared for something that may never happen to them, Shame of You.


...so says the old guy with the unusually large text. I am the Wolf Spyder, all others are just imitations.

RussP
11-16-2011, 13:09
No, its Leonard I pressume. He's looking for attention, a longshot lawsuit for his 2A rights being infringed upon, or possibly to go out by suicide by cop.Yes, it is Leonard...

RussP
11-16-2011, 13:10
If he is going to the local Wendy's to buy a frosty he is paranoid. If he is on security detail for blackwater then he is probably being underprepared.No, according to him, he's headed to the Kentucky Legislature while it's in session in January.

tommytrauma
11-16-2011, 13:12
Thanks, I'd be interested in seeing that. However, as admirable as helping out a cop in trouble is, I'm fairly certain that falls under the category of playing cop. If I were going to essentially act as a cop, I'd surely want to take extra mags and a vest while I'm at it.

Hamster, if you're the sort of guy who would allow a cop to be murdered in front of you rather than intervene when you were armed, I think our views are too philosophically divergent for my opinion to matter to you or yours to me. If you're not, then you are either willing to play cop or mischaracterising doing so as such.

hamster
11-16-2011, 13:12
No, according to him, he's headed to the Kentucky Legislature while it's in session in January.

Well in that case he is is just being prepared... we all know the place is full of crooks. :)

hamster
11-16-2011, 13:14
Hamster, if you're the sort of guy who would allow a cop to be murdered in front of you rather than intervene when you were armed, I think our views are too philosophically divergent for my opinion to matter to you or yours to me. If you're not, then you are either willing to play cop or mischaracterising doing so as such.


When I got my CCW, I did not sign up to be a Junior-G man deputy protector of the public. I signed up to protect myself and my family.

If you think that I'll be driving down the road with my wife and son, and stop my car to engage in a gunfight and will tango with a gunman that the local police couldn't handle, then you are whistling dixie.

I don't pretend to have the training or the ability to successfully intervene in a law-enforcement scenario. I would certainly render first aid and call for help as necessary.

Wolf Spyder
11-16-2011, 13:45
Hamster, my wife would jump out of the truck to aid an officer sooner than I would. I'm the EMT, she is Nuclear Security, she would have the M4-gery and be ready for dismount before I could get the truck stopped. However, if we were in that instance I would probably drive the truck into the BG, and then dismount. Do'n it John Woo style. :rofl:

tommytrauma
11-16-2011, 13:56
When I got my CCW, I did not sign up to be a Junior-G man deputy protector of the public. I signed up to protect myself and my family.

If you think that I'll be driving down the road with my wife and son, and stop my car to engage in a gunfight and will tango with a gunman that the local police couldn't handle, then you are whistling dixie.

I don't pretend to have the training or the ability to successfully intervene in a law-enforcement scenario. I would certainly render first aid and call for help as necessary.

Like I said, I think our philosophical views are too divergent for our opinions to matter to each other then. It is interesting to see how you need to cast dispersions to support your stance, but whatever.

hamster
11-16-2011, 14:00
Like I said, I think our philosophical views are too divergent for our opinions to matter to each other then. It is interesting to see how you need to cast dispersions to support your stance, but whatever.

Hamster, if you're the sort of guy who would allow a cop to be murdered in front of you rather than intervene when you were armed



I neither cast dispersions [sic] nor aspersions. You chose to call me out and basically call me a coward for "watching a cop get murdered" in front of me.

To be honest, I don't know how I'd react in such a scenario. I think my first consideration would be that my wife and son are safe... and how safely I could intervene if at all. I'm certainly not going to alter the way I carry on the off chance I encounter such a fantastical scenario.

Wolf Spyder
11-16-2011, 14:17
I neither cast dispersions [sic] nor aspersions. You chose to call me out and basically call me a coward for "watching a cop get murdered" in front of me.

To be honest, I don't know how I'd react in such a scenario. I think my first consideration would be that my wife and son are safe... and how safely I could intervene if at all. I'm certainly not going to alter the way I carry on the off chance I encounter such a fantastical scenario.


Calling someone "Paranoid" is casting aspersions.

hamster
11-16-2011, 14:20
Calling someone "Paranoid" is casting aspersions.

I don't think I called anyone paranoid for carrying extra mags, you may want to re-read the thread. In fact the only time I used the word was in response to RussP's photo with the well armed fellow where he directly asked the question... and my answer was clearly meant as a joke.

Please don't blame me for someone else's aspersions. :)

Wolf Spyder
11-16-2011, 14:22
For the record, I don't carry any magazines. I only carry "high capacity assault clips"...



I carry STANDARD capacity, 15 round, magazines for my Self Defense Tool. But I understand your trying to make a joke, I just didn't think it was funny in light of long held trends in media propaganda and its efforts to shape the opinion of the rest of society.

hamster
11-16-2011, 14:26
I carry STANDARD capacity, 15 round, magazines for my Self Defense Tool. But I understand your trying to make a joke, I just didn't think it was funny in light of long held trends in media propaganda and its efforts to shape the opinion of the rest of society.








#1. I like how the smiley face was the only thing you ellipsis...ed off that sentence. That is kindof the most critical part of the entire context.
#2. This is a super-pro gun forum and nobody here has said anything contrary, so there is no need to be all defensive.

Clearly I was trying to use the ridiculous rhetoric of the media to make a funny.

Wolf Spyder
11-16-2011, 14:39
I don't think I called anyone paranoid for carrying extra mags, you may want to re-read the thread. In fact the only time I used the word was in response to RussP's photo with the well armed fellow where he directly asked the question... and my answer was clearly meant as a joke.

Please don't blame me for someone else's aspersions. :)




Oh, I'm sorry, am I casting aspersions on the wrong aspersion caster? You were both arguing in favor of Statistically Based Life Choices. Birds of a Feather... and all. I figure Rambo is some sort of computer nerd or geek and speaking out the side of his neck, on stuff that he has no real experience. He's in favor of running 6 redundant drives in RAID, but crys at the thought of carrying an extra magazine. I am always in favor of folks being more prepared for life's little curve balls, not less prepared. Both of you seem to be ardently arguing against being just slightly more prepared. That is just fine if you want to live that way, but to try and convince others to follow you... :upeyes:

Sharky7
11-16-2011, 14:44
Oh, I'm sorry, am I casting aspersions on the wrong aspersion caster? You were both arguing in favor of Statistically Based Life Choices. Birds of a Feather... and all. I figure Rambo is some sort of computer nerd or geek and speaking out the side of his neck, on stuff that he has no real experience. He's in favor of running 6 redundant drives in RAID, but crys at the thought of carrying an extra magazine. I am always in favor of folks being more prepared for life's little curve balls, not less prepared. Both of you seem to be ardently arguing against being just slightly more prepared. That is just fine if you want to live that way, but to try and convince others to follow you... :upeyes:



Just because someone disagrees with you does not mean you have to go on a personal attack. The great thing about this forum is you can hear and discuss all kinds of different view points from all types of different people. Don't take it personal. Different strokes for different folks.

hamster
11-16-2011, 14:50
Oh, I'm sorry, am I casting aspersions on the wrong aspersion caster? You were both arguing in favor of Statistically Based Life Choices. Birds of a Feather... and all. I figure Rambo is some sort of computer nerd or geek and speaking out the side of his neck, on stuff that he has no real experience. He's in favor of running 6 redundant drives in RAID, but crys at the thought of carrying an extra magazine. I am always in favor of folks being more prepared for life's little curve balls, not less prepared. Both of you seem to be ardently arguing against being just slightly more prepared. That is just fine if you want to live that way, but to try and convince others to follow you... :upeyes:


I never argued against carrying extra mags, I just don't think it is necessary. One isn't "unprepared" or "under prepared" because they don't choose to carry an extra mag.

Like I said, on occasion if conditions allow I will carry an extra, but I certainly don't feel like I'm in imminent danger when I'm buying an ice cream cone in suburbia armed with 13+1.

I think the point that Rambo was trying to make with the RAID drives is that one bases preparation on the likelyhood of certain scenarios. Hard drives fail very often... thats why the RAID setup, whereas bios is much less likely to fail.. hence the single bios in his example.

While you may not agree with it, his example is entirely consistent. He has backups for very likely scenarios and less backups for less likely scenarios.

Likewise, I keep a fire extinguisher in my kitchen and one in my car. I would be more prepared if I had 12 fire extinguishers in my car in case the first 11 failed, but the likelyhood of that happening vs the inconvenience of schlepping them makes me only carry 1 fire extinguisher. The fact is EVERYONE bases their decisions on their assessment of risk... where we differ is how we assess risk.

You may feel the ideal number of spare mags to carry is 1 whereas someone else may think the ideal number to carry is 15. Does that make you underprepared? I don't think so.... you just have a different risk assessment than the other guy.

The title of this post is "any purpose to carrying an extra mag?" the point I've been trying to make is that so far in all my years of reading gun forums, I have yet to read a single case of a civillian benefiting from carrying a spare mag in a self defense scenario. The point is that being armed as often as possible is a good start and probably orders of magnitude more important to the numbers of rounds you carry.

Wolf Spyder
11-16-2011, 15:00
Clearly I was trying to use the ridiculous rhetoric of the media to make a funny.



Right, I got that. We are not the only ones reading these posts.

How many Newbies are out there in Cyber land trolling these threads? Not kids, persay, but kids, like my daughter's boyfriend (age 20) who gets most of his knowledge by reading the dribble he finds on different web sits. Sometimes they don't get it. Some times they think it is Gospel, just like the crap they see in movies and on TV. I guess I just over reacted...

Sharky7
11-16-2011, 15:03
I like carrying an extra magazine. To me, it's more about the numbers of rounds on me than a possible magazine failure. I've also done a lot of training on FATS and now MILO systems and also using sim rounds or live shoot. I know that when I generally make the decision to shoot, I shoot. It's easy to dump 5 or 7 rounds in just a second or two when you have a very clear threat to engage in front of you.

hamster
11-16-2011, 15:06
Right, I got that. We are not the only ones reading these posts.

How many Newbies are out there in Cyber land trolling these threads? Not kids, persay, but kids, like my daughter's boyfriend (age 20) who gets most of his knowledge by reading the dribble he finds on different web sits. Sometimes they don't get it. Some times they think it is Gospel, just like the crap they see in movies and on TV. I guess I just over reacted...



Actually you make a good point. One there was a thread here on glocktalk about some protesters vandalizing the offices of the democratic party. I was one of the few people who denounced the violence. I later found out someone had taken my quote out of context and used it in some sort of a "report." It got me very upset since I'm so fundamentally 100% against the initiation of violence that someone would quote me as some sort of internet anarchist.

So in short I guess you are right we need to be careful about how we joke here.

Wolf Spyder
11-16-2011, 15:49
Just because someone disagrees with you does not mean you have to go on a personal attack. The great thing about this forum is you can hear and discuss all kinds of different view points from all types of different people. Don't take it personal. Different strokes for different folks.


Yes, I was personally attacking Rambo, because he is calling folks Paranoid for choosing to carry a spare magazine. Life's rough, get a helmet.







I never argued against carrying extra mags, I just don't think it is necessary. One isn't "unprepared" or "under prepared" because they don't choose to carry an extra mag.


You have been arguing/debating with several others on this thread over that very fact. You are advocating being less prepared. At least that is the way I see it. You have now admitted that you do in fact carry a spare from time to time. Case closed.





Like I said, on occasion if conditions allow I will carry an extra, but I certainly don't feel like I'm in imminent danger when I'm buying an ice cream cone in suburbia armed with 13+1.


Danger can come at any time. Even at the Ice cream shop.





I think the point that Rambo was trying to make with the RAID drives is that one bases preparation on the likelihood of certain scenarios. Hard drives fail very often... thats why the RAID setup, whereas bios is much less likely to fail.. hence the single bios in his example.

While you may not agree with it, his example is entirely consistent. He has backups for very likely scenarios and less backups for less likely scenarios.


Ya, I understand his comment. And, yes, it was a valid analogy... However, I think he is a computer nerd who is advocating that folks who choose to carry an extra magazine are some how Paranoid. He is speaking as if from some position of authority on matters of self defense. Kinda like you and your comments about; "well, I've never read or heard of any instance blah blah blah... and statistically blah blah blah..." At the end of the day all you have is exactly what he has, an opinion. Opinions are great, we all have them, and mine stink just as bad as his and yours and even 21Carrier's... Hahahahahaha. I got my panties in a bunch when the word "Paranoid" got bantered about. I have been a Political Activist for Gun Owners for over half my life and that sh:t pisses me off. Fighting the battle of words is tiring. If he wants to call some one Paranoid, over self defense issues, he can go be a Liberal ass some where else.





Likewise, I keep a fire extinguisher in my kitchen and one in my car. I would be more prepared if I had 12 fire extinguishers in my car in case the first 11 failed, but the likelihood of that happening vs the inconvenience of schlepping them makes me only carry 1 fire extinguisher. The fact is EVERYONE bases their decisions on their assessment of risk... where we differ is how we assess risk.


Again, we are discussing a spare magazine for the tool that might save your life. You were saying a spare magazine was not needed. While Rambo was calling folks Paranoid... I think there is a small difference between carrying a spare magazine and carrying more than one fire extinguisher.

So, now that you are in the column of those who in fact do carry a spare magazine... can we go on with this thread?

Jackalo626
11-16-2011, 16:16
An extra mag in case of malfunction doesn't mean you have to empty both mags in a defense situation.

John Rambo
11-16-2011, 17:19
Lovely thread. I especially liked the part where some over-the-hill lunatic with a superiority complex who actually tried to make a case AGAINST relying on what really happens in life to make your decisions called me a computer nerd and a liberal(I'm a Republican) because I used something we could both relate to for analogy to make a (very valid) point.

And then people wonder why such a large chunk of society calls us all insane...

John Rambo
11-16-2011, 17:31
Do you think that had you, your opinion of "it probably won't happen because it hasn't happened before" might be different?

No. Because it happening to me would increment it by 1, whereas there are probably hundreds of thousands if not millions of people who have passed by there without incident before me.

Have I ever had one off, unlikely and near impossible things happen to me before? Sure. Is it my opinion that because they happened to me they are now likely to happen? Absolutely not. The prior statistics still exist and outweigh my experiences.

doktarZues
11-16-2011, 17:40
I don't need a spare mag "every day." I carry extra mags when I go hiking and camping, and I bring extra mags in the car when I've go on trips. But every day, no thanks.

The "better to have and not need" only goes so far as that could easily be applied to carrying around much more than the batman utility belts we see on here. Mind you we're talking about "EVERY day carry", your stock that you strap on EVERY morning before you leave the house. At the moment I honestly can't think of a better example of being superfluous and paranoid than carrying multiple knives, guns and magazines/ammo as an every day habit.

BailRecoveryAgent
11-16-2011, 17:54
I wanna move to wherever you guys live that life always plays out according to statistics.

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BailRecoveryAgent
11-16-2011, 17:59
At the moment I honestly can't think of a better example of being superfluous and paranoid than carrying multiple knives, guns and magazines/ammo as an every day habit.

I've carried a pocket knife around since I was around 12, a gun since I turned 21, and a spare mag for the last 2 years. Am I being superfluous and paranoid?

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C J
11-16-2011, 18:00
Always a spare mag & a spare gun. Or you could just travel with Wolf Spyder. That's awesome!

Warp
11-16-2011, 18:03
The purpose? In case you need it.

I typically don't, but sometimes I do. If it were more convenient, for me, I would do it more often.

captcurly
11-16-2011, 18:14
I carry an extra mag for insurance for a magazine failure. This has been posted but many failures can be solved by changing the magazine. Hey, if carrying an extra magazine makes you feel secure, you go for it. If you feel an extra magazine is not needed you go for it.

69Charger
11-16-2011, 18:17
I wonder how much of this is just chest thumping mall ninja talk? This is the internut ya know. LOL
Dave

Warp
11-16-2011, 18:21
I wonder how much of this is just chest thumping mall ninja talk? This is the internut ya know. LOL
Dave

Personal insults towards those who choose differently: Yup, this is the internet

talmadgeharper
11-16-2011, 18:26
Thank you for taking the time to respond to me and share your experience. It is much appreciated. You've opened up my eyes to the 10mm, and I also carry an extra mag




More and more people are beginning to realize the potential of the 10mm cartridge. Look at the .357 Magnum, it took more than 20 years before it became popular.






http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v378/Wolf_Spyder/JW7E2578small.jpg

hamster
11-16-2011, 18:28
Can we finally stop calling everyone we disagree with for whatever reason a "liberal" or "anti self defense?" I really think that we are a likeminded community here and such comments aren't necessary.

Wolf: I occasionally carry a spare mag... occasionally means rarely, as in not a matter of practice. I usually only do on really windy days when I need the extra weight to weigh down my cover garment.

Don't you think you calling someone underprepared for only carrying 14 friggin' rounds of 40 s&w the same as Rambo calling someone who carries an extra mag paranoid? Who is to say that 3 extra mags isn't the "correct" number?

SCmasterblaster
11-16-2011, 18:30
i bought a Glock extra mag holder for my belt, but now i wondering why i did

it just seems foolish to think id ever need more than 10 shots for any situation when the odds are 99.99999% that i will ever even draw my gun

do any of you carry a spare mag?

Yes, I carry a spare magazine for my G17 here in VT. I have it to restore my G17 to a full 17 rounds after the shooting is over with. :supergrin:

RussP
11-16-2011, 19:06
No. Because it happening to me would increment it by 1, whereas there are probably hundreds of thousands if not millions of people who have passed by there without incident before me.

Have I ever had one off, unlikely and near impossible things happen to me before? Sure. Is it my opinion that because they happened to me they are now likely to happen? Absolutely not. The prior statistics still exist and outweigh my experiences.Well, when you, when you have that one off which includes bullets whizzing by your head where you least expect it, get back to us.

Until then, let those of us who have had that actual experience, and others, voice our opinions based on real world situations without demeaning us.

There are many, many personal decisions everyone who carries must make. The first, of course is deciding to carry. Carrying extra ammo is just another one. Some have real good reasons, where they live, what they do, their 'associates', personal and private issues...those are just a few. Minimizing any of them, whether directly or by implication is disrespectful.

Then there is the unintended consequence of someone altering their behavior based on your declaration that they are paranoid if they carry more than their weapon holds. Then comes the day they need just one more shot, that 'one off event' they're no longer prepared for. But, then, what are the odds of that happening...

John Rambo
11-16-2011, 19:17
But, then, what are the odds of that happening...

See, thats all I'm saying'. :wavey:

RussP
11-16-2011, 19:25
See, thats all I'm saying'. :wavey:Who would have thought you'd miss the dripping sarcasm of that.

I don't think you did.

And you ignore the remainder of my post. That I did expect.

Lampshade
11-16-2011, 19:30
If he wants to call some one Paranoid, over self defense issues, he can go be a Liberal ass some where else.

Hmm... the guy pretending that there's no such thing as paranoia when it comes to self defense is the guy that carries five mags for EDC.

Shocking.

John Rambo
11-16-2011, 19:36
Who would have thought you'd miss the dripping sarcasm of that.

I don't think you did.

And you ignore the remainder of my post. That I did expect.

:tongueout:

You see my point. I see yours. We both seem to be level headed guys who can confidently write 'No' on form 4473, question 9f. We simply won't agree on it. And since you've been nothing but civil, that leaves nothing but good-natured potshots for us to trade.

#5xbr
11-16-2011, 20:22
backups hmmmm. got cash? how about checkbook,debit,credit card. got pension? savings,social security. how about health insurance,aarp,medicare,medical. this list can go on and on.......

RussP
11-16-2011, 20:27
:tongueout:

You see my point. I see yours. We both seem to be level headed guys who can confidently write 'No' on form 4473, question 9f. We simply won't agree on it. And since you've been nothing but civil, that leaves nothing but good-natured potshots for us to trade.But, you see, you want to make light of the issue and I'm dead serious about relying on my real world, real bullets personal experiences, and the real world personal experiences of others I know and trust, as a really strong base for when I offer advice to newcomers to carrying for self defense.

While you may want to counsel people, no, not counsel, brow beat others with your statistics and negative labeling and risk someone having the unique experience that you are not concerned with, the one that injures or kills them, I prefer to acknowledge the statistics, but tell them that for every stack of numbers saying the risk is low, something bad can/might/will happen, I'll counsel them to consider that the unlikely, the unexpected has happened to good people and that if they wish to prepare for those unexpected events, they should. If not, that's fine, too.

I never have and never will tell someone they are paranoid, ill prepared, over prepared. I'll discuss the possible scenarios with them, and there are many, but, whatever balance they find at the moment that gives them comfort, it is their decision based on as much information I can furnish them, again, acknowledging statistics and also the lack of factual evidence some bad things haven't happened - yet.

John Rambo
11-16-2011, 20:50
But, you see, you want to make light of the issue and I'm dead serious about relying on my real world, real bullets personal experiences, and the real world personal experiences of others I know and trust, as a really strong base for when I offer advice to newcomers to carrying for self defense.


And I'm dead serious that as much of a badass as you think you are, or you may in fact be, and as many deadly gunfights as you may have been in, it still doesn't change the fact that the statistics I present factor you badass types into them. And you still come out on the wrong side of the issue. :wavey:

Remember, now, I'm not talking about your days in Afghanistan or Somalia or working on SWAT teams in Detroit. I'm talking about self-defense situations in everyday life.


While you may want to counsel people, no, not counsel, brow beat others with your statistics and negative labeling and risk someone having the unique experience that you are not concerned with, the one that injures or kills them, I prefer to acknowledge the statistics, but tell them that for every stack of numbers saying the risk is low, something bad can/might/will happen, I'll counsel them to consider that the unlikely, the unexpected has happened to good people and that if they wish to prepare for those unexpected events, they should. If not, that's fine, too.


And you won't find me saying anywhere they shouldn't carry as much artillery as they want. Just that they're paranoid for doing so because they're not going to need it. Am I hedging my bets when I say that? Sure. But its a very safe bet.


I never have and never will tell someone they are paranoid, ill prepared, over prepared. I'll discuss the possible scenarios with them, and there are many, but, whatever balance they find at the moment that gives them comfort, it is their decision based on as much information I can furnish them, again, acknowledging statistics and also the lack of factual evidence some bad things haven't happened - yet.

Why is it so hard for someone to admit they're paranoid? I can admit I'm lots of things. I'm an *******. I've got a dry, distasteful sense of humor. I'm absolutely awful at using a bow and arrow. I'm antisocial as they come (the real definition of the word, mind you). Thats just the way things are.

Why does everybody get their panties in a wad over the very notion that they aren't the shining star of superiority and correctness? I don't understand it. People simply can't achieve self-actualization in this forum for some reason.

Warp
11-16-2011, 21:07
Why is it so hard for someone to admit they're paranoid?

Do you admit that you are paranoid?

You do realize that carrying a gun means you are paranoid, right?

cowboy1964
11-16-2011, 21:21
What is the down side to carrying a spare mag? Carrying an extra 8 ounces? Big whoop. My wallet probably weighs more than that.

Wolf Spyder
11-16-2011, 21:37
Lovely thread. I especially liked the part where some over-the-hill lunatic with a superiority complex who actually tried to make a case AGAINST relying on what really happens in life to make your decisions called me a computer nerd and a liberal (I'm a Republican) because I used something we could both relate to for analogy to make a (very valid) point.

And then people wonder why such a large chunk of society calls us all insane...


I have three points to make;

1) I might be getting older... that does not make me over the hill. I have been playing Paintball for more than 24 years, I have been a Gun Rights Activist on the State level for almost 20 years, I was the man who got the ODNR to change the laws for handgun hunting to allow the 10mm to be used to harvest White Tail Deer here in Ohio, I have been active in IDPA for almost 13 years, and I have been teaching firearms safety for almost 10 years, I was the Editor of a small newspaper for about 2 years. I am a Fire Fighter, an EMT, and I am on the County Special Rescue Team. I was one of the original members of the Central Ohio Tea Party. I was on stage at the Garage Bar and Grill in Columbus Ohio on National TV for Glenn Beck's 9/12 Program. What have you done for your community?

2) I have personally seen the results of "Bad Guy with Gun" crime scenes. I have seen gun shot victims (.12 ga to the face, point blank) survive in misery for 40 some odd minutes before expiring, on their way to a trauma center. Go talk to his family about statistics and odds...

3) you can be a Libtard and a Republican at the same time, in Congress we call them RINO's, personally I call them worse... but this is a family friendly web forum.



So, Rambo, I hear your Momma call'n boy... Go home.





Thank you for taking the time to respond to me and share your experience. It is much appreciated. You've opened up my eyes to the 10mm, and I also carry an extra mag


Thank you, I'm glad I could help. You will have to post in the 10 Ring when you bring home your first 10mm. :wavey:







Can we finally stop calling everyone we disagree with for whatever reason a "liberal" or "anti self defense?" I really think that we are a like minded community here and such comments aren't necessary.


Hamster, I apologize, You are correct, we all should be like minded Pro Gun individuals. I was quick to anger over the Paranoid comments, and I should of had more restraint.






Wolf: I occasionally carry a spare mag... occasionally means rarely, as in not a matter of practice. I usually only do on really windy days when I need the extra weight to weigh down my cover garment.


Doesn't matter, you already said you carry a spare magazine from time to time. I win !! :rofl:






Don't you think you calling someone under prepared for only carrying 14 friggin' rounds of 40 s&w the same as Rambo calling someone who carries an extra mag paranoid? Who is to say that 3 extra mags isn't the "correct" number?


And this is why I apologized. You made a good point.






Hmm... the guy pretending that there's no such thing as paranoia when it comes to self defense is the guy that carries five mags for EDC.

Shocking.


I did not say there was no such thing as paranoia... If you search these threads on this forum you will find that I have admitted to wearing a tinfoil hat from time to time. Maybe as often as Hamster carries a spare magazine... who knows. :rofl: :tongueout:

JuneyBooney
11-16-2011, 21:41
I carry two extra mags if using a shoulder holster.

John Rambo
11-16-2011, 22:46
Do you admit that you are paranoid?

You do realize that carrying a gun means you are paranoid, right?

I might have answered yes to that, until there was a nice spanish man who had tried to mug me staring down the barrel of my gun at an ATM. But what do I know, I'm just a computer nerd. :wavey:

John Rambo
11-16-2011, 22:47
I have three points to make;






I have one point to make.

I don't care what you've done with your life; You're insane and should seek psychological help.

Sam Spade
11-17-2011, 06:27
And I'm dead serious that as much of a badass as you think you are, or you may in fact be, and as many deadly gunfights as you may have been in, it still doesn't change the fact that the statistics I present factor you badass types into them. And you still come out on the wrong side of the issue. :wavey:

You haven't presented jack. You've made up numbers in your head, you've weaseled around questions about those numbers, you've presented misconceptions about actual shootings as if they were fact, ignored the corrections. On top of it all, you've chosen a disparaging label for others and shown that you don't know the meaning of it.

While you personally may be a precious and unique snowflake, climbing to Maslow's pinnacle, your positions are bilge water and your support of them infantile.

And that's why none of the other kids want to play your games.

RussP
11-17-2011, 06:40
But, you see, you want to make light of the issue and i'm dead serious about relying on my real world, real bullets personal experiences, and the real world personal experiences of others i know and trust, as a really strong base for when i offer advice to newcomers to carrying for self defense.
and i'm dead serious that as much of a badass as you think you are, or you may in fact be, and as many deadly gunfights as you may have been in, it still doesn't change the fact that the statistics i present factor you badass types into them. And you still come out on the wrong side of the issue. :wavey:Well, actually, what I learned from my life experiences, from when statistically everything was suppose to be weighted in my favor, but bad **** happened anyway, those lessons long ago, and not so long ago, have kept me from stepping into bad situations. They helped me develop my spidey-senses, and when they kick in, I heed their warning. To me, heeding them and being alive today is coming out on the right side.Remember, now, i'm not talking about your days in afghanistan or somalia or working on swat teams in detroit. I'm talking about self-defense situations in everyday life.Their is something we, you, me, anyone else reading this can learn from any self defense situation, whether it is in a military setting, a law enforcement setting, or "self-defense situations in everyday life." You read and study and choose the parts that best relate to your personal situation. Not everything fits everyone, but something will help someone, and it just might save their life.

Have you ever taken a multi-day, hard core, disciplined self defense course? I haven't. I've read a lot about them, watched videos, talked with people who have attended the classes. One thing I've noticed is the blending of military, LE and everyday self defense in the instruction. It's seamless. What today's military is learning about urban fighting is being applied to LE training and "self-defense situations in everyday life." What is learned by LE on the streets is being applied to military training and "self-defense situations in everyday life."

So, to say, "i'm not talking about your days in afghanistan or somalia or working on swat teams in detroit," really dilutes the information available for making a decision about self defense carry. Remember, not everything is applicable to your situation or my situation, but something might be. Are you really willing to ignore that something which may save your life, or the life of someone else? while you may want to counsel people, no, not counsel, brow beat others with your statistics and negative labeling and risk someone having the unique experience that you are not concerned with, the one that injures or kills them, i prefer to acknowledge the statistics, but tell them that for every stack of numbers saying the risk is low, something bad can/might/will happen, i'll counsel them to consider that the unlikely, the unexpected has happened to good people and that if they wish to prepare for those unexpected events, they should. If not, that's fine, too.and you won't find me saying anywhere they shouldn't carry as much artillery as they want. Just that they're paranoid for doing so because they're not going to need it. Am i hedging my bets when i say that? Sure. But its a very safe bet.You perceive it to be a safe bet for yourself. It may not be for another person. What is right and good for one person may be deadly wrong for someone else.i never have and never will tell someone they are paranoid, ill prepared, over prepared. I'll discuss the possible scenarios with them, and there are many, but, whatever balance they find at the moment that gives them comfort, it is their decision based on as much information i can furnish them, again, acknowledging statistics and also the lack of factual evidence some bad things haven't happened - yet.why is it so hard for someone to admit they're paranoid?Because they are not and to admit so would be a lie. I can admit i'm lots of things. I'm an *******. I've got a dry, distasteful sense of humor. I'm absolutely awful at using a bow and arrow. I'm antisocial as they come (the real definition of the word, mind you). Thats just the way things are.Thanks for the insight.Why does everybody get their panties in a wad over the very notion that they aren't the shining star of superiority and correctness? I don't understand it. People simply can't achieve self-actualization in this forum for some reason.To whom are you addressing that? Me?

Self-actualization, the full realization of one's potential, is that what you mean? I doubt many here have achieved their full potential. Most are still learning and applying those lessons to their lives.

Are you saying you have achieved self-actualization? Isn't one aspect of that state that you embrace reality and facts rather than denying truth? I see and recognize, acknowledge, that you feel good enclosed by your statistics. Then, however, I read this...Do you admit that you are paranoid?

You do realize that carrying a gun means you are paranoid, right?I might have answered yes to that, until there was a nice spanish man who had tried to mug me staring down the barrel of my gun at an ATM. But what do I know, I'm just a computer nerd. :wavey:There is another personal experience that flies in the face of your statistics. You demean and trivialize other people's experiences, but your own has merit. Okay, so based on your earlier posts stating your reliance on statistics, statistically, the chances of needing your firearm at an ATM are slim. Would that be correct? Yet, your experience at an ATM removes the paranoia label from you.

Are you saying that everyone should ignore what happened to you, they should not learn and apply the lesson to their lives as well?

Should everyone ignore stories of people mugged, robbed, killed by multiple assailants, 2, maybe 4, maybe 8 violent bad guys, in deciding how many rounds to carry?

I've read a lot of stories about people who started carrying because of such attacks. Do you advise them to carry only what their weapon holds? What if they prefer a 1911 with a 7-round mag. Oh, yeah, and that person was mugged and robbed by a gang of 8 very nasty, very aggressive people.

Do you believe they'll take comfort in the fact that experiences like their mugging were factored into the statistics that said the chances of that happening are extremely, extremely low?

John Rambo
11-17-2011, 06:52
You haven't presented jack. You've made up numbers in your head, you've weaseled around questions about those numbers, you've presented misconceptions about actual shootings as if they were fact, ignored the corrections. On top of it all, you've chosen a disparaging label for others and shown that you don't know the meaning of it.

While you personally may be a precious and unique snowflake, climbing to Maslow's pinnacle, your positions are bilge water and your support of them infantile.

And that's why none of the other kids want to play your games.

I've been pretty busy the past couple days, and in fact will be even busier today. But feel free to specifically ask for a stat or two and I'll provide it. I don't have time to cite everything I type. If you doubt something, ask for the supporting material and I'll link you. But don't think I'm going to spoonfeed you every single little stat. You have Google, too.

hamster
11-17-2011, 06:57
Yet, your experience at an ATM removes the paranoia label from you.

Are you saying that everyone should ignore what happened to you, they should not learn and apply the lesson to their lives as well?

Should everyone ignore stories of people mugged, robbed, killed by multiple assailants, 2, maybe 4, maybe 8 violent bad guys, in deciding how many rounds to carry?

I've read a lot of stories about people who started carrying because of such attacks.

Do you believe they'll take comfort in the fact that experiences like their mugging were factored into the statistics that said the chances of that happening are extremely, extremely low?

Russ, If I'm understanding correctly here you are trying to point out an inconsistency in Rambo's logic. My understanding of him is thus:

He chooses to carry because: There is a small chance of him being assaulted while in public. There are hundreds of stories of citizens successfully defending themselves in such situations with pistols, including now his own. Heck, open any copy of the latest gun rag and you'll see at least a dozen such stories. The need for self defense is quite a tangible risk scenario to prepare for.

He chooses not to carry a spare mag because: The chance of needing to reload and use the second mag are a tiny fraction of the already small chances of being attacked. In his estimation the odds are so slim that it isn't worth it for him to inconvenience himself. None of the self-proclaimed über-trained and experienced firearms gurus on the forum have been able to produce a single instance where the gangs of multiple assailants didn't take off and run after the victim showed the ability to defend themselves, nor the use of a second magazine or reload.

Now we each need to make our own decisions of how we balance risk vs comfort in our daily carry routines. However I don't think that his reasoning is that off base.

Bottom line is: For a risk to merit preparation, then it should not take over 300 people scouring the interwebs without being able to come up with a single documented story, anecdote where that scenario occurred. I have asked this same question in threads on 4 of the major gun forums and not a single person has been able to come up with a legitimate civilian case. That tells me something.

That being said, I would not call anyone who chooses to carry 1 extra mag paranoid. Frankly I don't care what others do, I was simply trying to give an honest answer based on the thousands of SD stories and accounts I've read and heard.

For now I'll continue to carry my G23 and two extra magazines: "American Rifleman" and "Guns & Ammo"

John Rambo
11-17-2011, 07:10
Well, actually, what I learned from my life experiences, from when statistically everything was suppose to be weighted in my favor, but bad **** happened anyway, those lessons long ago, and not so long ago, have kept me from stepping into bad situations. They helped me develop my spidey-senses, and when they kick in, I heed their warning. To me, heeding them and being alive today is coming out on the right side.Their is something we, you, me, anyone else reading this can learn from any self defense situation, whether it is in a military setting, a law enforcement setting, or "self-defense situations in everyday life." You read and study and choose the parts that best relate to your personal situation. Not everything fits everyone, but something will help someone, and it just might save their life.


Sure. You'll note one of the first things I said was that the multiplier as to how likely you are to end up in a SD situation can change depending various factors like time, location, etc. Situational awareness is an important skill to practice, and not because Charlie could be waiting around every turn - because its good to pay attention to things in life. We're not in disagreement here.


Have you ever taken a multi-day, hard core, disciplined self defense course? I haven't. I've read a lot about them, watched videos, talked with people who have attended the classes. One thing I've noticed is the blending of military, LE and everyday self defense in the instruction. It's seamless. What today's military is learning about urban fighting is being applied to LE training and "self-defense situations in everyday life." What is learned by LE on the streets is being applied to military training and "self-defense situations in everyday life."


No. If I had unlimited money and time I would, they seem cool. Not that I think I'll ever be racking the slide of my pistol against my boot because one of my arms is disabled, but it beats sitting at home watching T.V.


So, to say, "i'm not talking about your days in afghanistan or somalia or working on swat teams in detroit," really dilutes the information available for making a decision about self defense carry. Remember, not everything is applicable to your situation or my situation, but something might be. Are you really willing to ignore that something which may save your life, or the life of someone else? You perceive it to be a safe bet for yourself. It may not be for another person. What is right and good for one person may be deadly wrong for someone else.Because they are not and to admit so would be a lie. Thanks for the insight.


Ignore? As you can see, I haven't ignored anything. I've simply weighted it properly. I can't tote around 200lbs of gear every day 'just in case'. I take what I'm likely to need. Same thing as when I go to a job site. If someone says, "My computer is down." I don't show up with a spool of cable and punchdown tools. I very well may end up needing a spool of cable and punchdown tools because a drop went bad, but its not likely. Get it?

To whom are you addressing that? Me?
[/quote]

Nope. To those who seem to get all in a tither and defensive when identified as paranoid. You've been very civil and level-headed throughout this whole thread, and I thank you for it.


Self-actualization, the full realization of one's potential, is that what you mean? I doubt many here have achieved their full potential. Most are still learning and applying those lessons to their lives.

Are you saying you have achieved self-actualization?


The first step to self-actualization is self-acceptance. Before you accept yourself, flaws and all, you can never strive for your potential. Self-actualization is an ongoing endeavor and not one you can ever complete, but I am saying thats where I reside on Maslow's hierarchy of needs. If you balk anytime someone points out a flaw, you've obviously not accepted yourself.


Isn't one aspect of that state that you embrace reality and facts rather than denying truth? I see and recognize, acknowledge, that you feel good enclosed by your statistics. Then, however, I read this...There is another personal experience that flies in the face of your statistics. You demean and trivialize other people's experiences, but your own has merit. Okay, so based on your earlier posts stating your reliance on statistics, statistically, the chances of needing your firearm at an ATM are slim. Would that be correct? Yet, your experience at an ATM removes the paranoia label from you.

Nope. When I went to bed I thought, "I'm going to get called out on that." And sure enough, here it is. I was never paranoid for carrying. Nobody is. Its a safe bet that you'll be the victim of a violent crime one day. As such, its a safe bet you should carry something for personal defense.

That post was structured like that do add to some humor to an unnecessarily tense thread. I was not paranoid before, and I'm not paranoid after. I have not changed my habits as a result of that encounter because I did not need to. Also, that encounter ended without gunshots, as many incidents of a CWP holder drawing their weapon do.


Are you saying that everyone should ignore what happened to you, they should not learn and apply the lesson to their lives as well?


Absolutely not! I was in a high risk situation at that point. Middle of the night. Dark ATM away from a main road. "Eh" part of town. On my motorcycle. The likelyhood of me running into trouble was pretty high.


Should everyone ignore stories of people mugged, robbed, killed by multiple assailants, 2, maybe 4, maybe 8 violent bad guys, in deciding how many rounds to carry?


Ignore? No. But look, if you get attacked by 8 people you had better run unless you're packing a machine gun. You're suggesting they should ignore statistics and what DOES happen because of what COULD happen, even thought it never HAS happened before. This is turning into a "Pot-kettle-black" conversation.


I've read a lot of stories about people who started carrying because of such attacks. Do you advise them to carry only what their weapon holds? What if they prefer a 1911 with a 7-round mag. Oh, yeah, and that person was mugged and robbed by a gang of 8 very nasty, very aggressive people.

I advise them to see someone to dicsuss the abrupt change in thought process that attack caused as soon as possible. Such a change can be dangerous. But if you recall, as I've said multiple times, I would advise them to carry whatever they're comfortable with. I've gotten newcomers acclimated with guns and outfitted with a carry piece and a CWP. One picked a Glock 36 - my Glock 36, in fact. Another wanted a Springfield XD-45 service model. Both were provided extra mags and when they asked what/when to carry, I said "whatever you're comfortable with." If they ask about the likelyhood of what they'll need, then I'll discuss statistics with them.



Do you believe they'll take comfort in the fact that experiences like their mugging were factored into the statistics that said the chances of that happening are extremely, extremely low?

Of course not. But remember, that will have to happen, first. And there is no evidence of it happening. So again, we're into fictitious scenarios. "Do you believe we'll find comfort in the fact that the zombie apocalypse was a statistical anomaly?"

RussP
11-17-2011, 07:54
Russ, If I'm understanding correctly here you are trying to point out an inconsistency in Rambo's logic. My understanding of him is thus:

He chooses to carry because: There is a small chance of him being assaulted while in public. There are hundreds of stories of citizens successfully defending themselves in such situations with pistols, including now his own. Heck, open any copy of the latest gun rag and you'll see at least a dozen such stories. The need for self defense is quite a tangible risk scenario to prepare for.

He chooses not to carry a spare mag because: The chance of needing to reload and use the second mag are a tiny fraction of the already small chances of being attacked. In his estimation the odds are so slim that it isn't worth it for him to inconvenience himself. None of the self-proclaimed über-trained and experienced firearms gurus on the forum have been able to produce a single instance where the gangs of multiple assailants didn't take off and run after the victim showed the ability to defend themselves, nor the use of a second magazine or reload. Well stated. The discussion, and this isn't new with Mr. Rambo, comes down to total reliance on the statistics showing the extremely low probability of occurrence and the statement, "It's never happened before illustrated by no documented cases." My personal experiences are that it certainly can and has happened, the heretofore statistically improbable became a statistical occurrence.

Now we each need to make our own decisions of how we balance risk vs comfort in our daily carry routines. However I don't think that his reasoning is that off base.The objection is the negative labeling and demeaning those who do not agree with his position and the negative influence that may have on someone's decision making.Bottom line is: For a risk to merit preparation, then it should not take over 300 people scouring the interwebs without being able to come up with a single documented story, anecdote where that scenario occurred. I have asked this same question in threads on 4 of the major gun forums and not a single person has been able to come up with a legitimate civilian case. That tells me something. Yep, tells me, based on my experiences, at some time, some where, under the right circumstances and conditions, it just might happen. That being said, I would not call anyone who chooses to carry 1 extra mag paranoid. Frankly I don't care what others do, I was simply trying to give an honest answer based on the thousands of SD stories and accounts I've read and heard.

For now I'll continue to carry my G23 and two extra magazines: "American Rifleman" and "Guns & Ammo"Good!!

eaglefrq
11-17-2011, 08:21
Bottom line is: For a risk to merit preparation, then it should not take over 300 people scouring the interwebs without being able to come up with a single documented story, anecdote where that scenario occurred. I have asked this same question in threads on 4 of the major gun forums and not a single person has been able to come up with a legitimate civilian case. That tells me something.

Of the articles that I've read, there is no mention of round count or reloads. That doesn't mean they didn't happen, the news didn't report them. The common lines I've seen seem to be; "returned fire" or "fired at his/her attacker".

That information is likely in the police report, but not reported by the media.

Being labeled by a fellow gun owner as paranoid because I choose to carry a spare magazine is the same as being called paranoid because I carry a weapon by someone who feels only the police should have guns.

If we choose to label each other as paranoid, then I'm sure someone trolling this forum would love to see that, take it out of context and print it somewhere else. I believe you stated that happened to you one time and you were mad about the incident. How would Rambo feel if someone takes his "paranoid" label out of context and quotes it in a newspaper article?

HerrGlock
11-17-2011, 08:22
I now have a headache.

There are times I cannot believe how up in arms (pun semi-intended) people get when someone disagrees with their opinion about stuff that just plain doesn't matter in the long run.

hamster
11-17-2011, 08:30
Of the articles that I've read, there is no mention of round count or reloads. That doesn't mean they didn't happen, the news didn't report them. The common lines I've seen seem to be; "returned fire" or "fired at his/her attacker".

That information is likely in the police report, but not reported by the media.



I've seen two kinds of reports. The standard "media" type report with minimal information and the very detailed narrative type of report like the ones that were cited earlier in the thread example: the ex marine.

I can only go by what I have seen, read, heard. I can't reasonably base my opinions on what "might have happened" but was not reported.

One thing is for sure, I hope I'm not the guy who ends up being the first reported narrative of someone needing more than 14 shots in a civilian defensive scenario!

H&K 4 LIFE
11-17-2011, 08:31
...Bottom line is: For a risk to merit preparation, then it should not take over 300 people scouring the interwebs without being able to come up with a single documented story, anecdote where that scenario occurred. I have asked this same question in threads on 4 of the major gun forums and not a single person has been able to come up with a legitimate civilian case. That tells me something...

The fact that no recorded instance of a reload being used by a civilian in a DGU incident can be readily provided for reference is inconsequential to my thought process for a number of reasons...

1. Such an incident(s) may very well have occurred, but perhaps the specifics of the reload taking place were not greatly focused upon. This would make such incident(s) difficult to seek out for reference. Also, such an incident(s) could have occurred and perhaps never have even been reported (and therefore recorded for later reference). In addition, an incident(s) could have occurred where a reload was entirely necessary, but with no spare magazine present, a reload could therefore not be performed. And while that makes an excellent case for carrying a spare, it is unable to be referenced as a supporting argument because it was never allowed to happen.

2. Since we can successfully cite situations where multiple guns were used ("New York Reload') the requirement for more ammunition beyond what is contained already in the firearm is, to a degree, aptly illustrated in some cases. If documented situations that serve as "evidence" of needing a reload, be it extra ammo or an extra gun, is what you are looking for then I think this should fully constitute as such.

3. DGU incidents are by nature a chaos event. It would be unwise to say that even if 1000 people encounter a similar scenario with similar results that the circumstances and context surrounding your individual scenario will not be or play out any differently.

Frankly I don't care what others do...

I agree with your there. :)

BailRecoveryAgent
11-17-2011, 08:32
I now have a headache.

Here, take two of these. They work good for my headaches, GT related or not.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/c0/Excedrin_Migraine.jpg/800px-Excedrin_Migraine.jpg (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c0/Excedrin_Migraine.jpg)

hamster
11-17-2011, 08:35
2. Since we can successfully cite situations where multiple guns were used ("New York Reload') the requirement for more ammunition beyond what is contained already in the firearm is, to a degree, aptly illustrated in some cases. If documented situations that serve as "evidence" of needing a reload, be it extra ammo or an extra gun, is what you are looking for then I think this should fully constitute as such.


Wait, we can? If you have found such a case of a civilian needing to fire from a backup gun in a SD situation I'd LOVE to see it. That would certainly satisfy my challenge. Please post the link.

HerrGlock
11-17-2011, 08:45
Here, take two of these. They work good for my headaches, GT related or not.


Nah, more than one person in this thread needs this, though:

http://ankylosaur.com/images/midol.jpg

H&K 4 LIFE
11-17-2011, 08:45
Wait, we can? If you have found such a case of a civilian needing to fire from a backup gun in a SD situation I'd LOVE to see it. That would certainly satisfy my challenge. Please post the link.

Here you go. The Ayoob Files, American Handgunner March/April 2002. The story of watch dealer Lance Thomas...

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0BTT/is_156_26/ai_82533205/

In assessing the aftermath, the Rolex specialist analyzes what he has learned with the same precision he applies to the repair and adjustment of fine watches. It is not lost on him that he has expended 60 percent of his ammunition to neutralize 50 percent of his antagonists. It occurs to him that a single five-shot revolver might not be enough if there's a next time, and that there won't be much opportunity to reload. The watchmaker grabs the nearest revolver, the Ruger .357, missing with the first shot but scoring with the next five. The gunman falls to the floor and so does the Security-Six: it has clicked empty. Thomas drops it, lunging for the next nearest weapon, the snubnose .38 that had saved him last time.
Now he engages the second suspect, who is shooting at him. Thomas shoots back. That gun, too, runs dry. He hasn't hit his antagonist, but he hasn't been hit either, and the second robber is in no mood to continue the gunfight.
The third inside suspect opens fire at Thomas. Wounded, but furious and still in the fight, the storekeeper grabs his third gun of the shootout, another .357. As Paul Kirchner relates it, he "empties it into" the third gunman. That offender goes down...

hamster
11-17-2011, 08:52
Here you go. The Ayoob Files, American Handgunner March/April 2002. The story of watch dealer Lance Thomas...

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0BTT/is_156_26/ai_82533205/

I've seen this one before and as I have said before, I think that this guy's risk profile is vastly different than the the Average Citizen CCW.

I've said before in this thread, if you own a jewelry store, bank, pawn shop, brothel, meth lab, casino, we-buy-gold or any other robbery target environment...you know, the kind of places that usually have barred windows, security guards and daily armored car pickups... then you are in a special situation.

Even cities like New York allow special exemptions for people like this to be armed.

This guy in particular has been personally robbed 3 times previous. I'd say that given his history and his profession he does not fit the "average" risk profile. He should have a friggin' BMG mounted to his counter.

The fact that some non-LEOs exist in super-high risk professions does not mean that every soccer mom, accountant and basket-weaver is at equal risk of attack.

By all means, within your home or business have a friggin' arsenal... in those places how well you are armed is immaterial to the convenience of "carry" outside of your property. Hell I'm a firearms fan so within my own home, I could survive the zombie apocalypse. This thread is fundamentally not about property defense but rather about self-defense when out and about... you know, the kinds of places where one needs a carry permit. (Not their own property)

RussP
11-17-2011, 09:02
You're suggesting they should ignore statistics and what DOES happen because of what COULD happen, even thought it never HAS happened before.Here is your problem. I have never said ignore statistics. I say include what does happen, what has happened, what could happen and, if you choose, anticipate what hasn't happened, but could. It's looking at the big picture.

Remember the jeweler in Florida who emptied his 5-shot revolver and the bad guys kept shooting? http://www.naplesnews.com/news/2011/feb/08/sandy-thalheimer-jeweler-armed-robbery-shot-back/

Is that case in your statistics?

69Charger
11-17-2011, 09:04
American Handgunner March/April 2002.

Well now I'm convinced. LOL 2002? Its 2011. Ha Ha Ha Ha.
Dave

hamster
11-17-2011, 09:07
Remember the jeweler in Florida who emptied his 5-shot revolver and the bad guys kept shooting? http://www.naplesnews.com/news/2011/feb/08/sandy-thalheimer-jeweler-armed-robbery-shot-back/

Is that case in your statistics?

You mean :"...owner of Thalheimers Jewelers, saw masked men speed off after robbing someone in his jewelry store parking lot Tuesday afternoon, he raced toward their car, rammed it with his truck and within seconds was in the middle of a shootout, taking on more than four men."


I'm sorry but when you go chasing after robbers and ram them with your truck, you've gone well past SD at this point he is playing LEO in my opinion.

RussP
11-17-2011, 09:09
I've seen this one before and as I have said before, I think that this guy's risk profile is vastly different than the the Average Citizen CCW.

I've said before in this thread, if you own a jewelry store, bank, pawn shop, brothel, meth lab, casino, we-buy-gold or any other robbery target environment...you know, the kind of places that usually have barred windows, security guards and daily armored car pickups... then you are in a special situation. What happens when bad guys start changing tactics/targets because the usual targets become too hardened? What happens when mobile bad guys travel outside their "territory" and look for softer targets? They are the same bad guys with the same motive, just different location, easier pickings, less risk.

RussP
11-17-2011, 09:13
You mean :"...owner of Thalheimers Jewelers, saw masked men speed off after robbing someone in his jewelry store parking lot Tuesday afternoon, he raced toward their car, rammed it with his truck and within seconds was in the middle of a shootout, taking on more than four men."


I'm sorry but when you go chasing after robbers and ram them with your truck, you've gone well past SD at this point he is playing LEO in my opinion.So he doesn't fit into your statistical profile, so the fact he ran out of ammo is dismissed?

Like Sam says, statistics are only as good as the question asked.

BailRecoveryAgent
11-17-2011, 09:19
I've seen this one before and as I have said before, I think that this guy's risk profile is vastly different than the the Average Citizen CCW.


Not if the Average Citizen CCW is in his shop looking at Rolex's, or any other place that "could" be robbed. Just because we may not be the intended target of a violent encounter doesn't mean we won't be involved or caught up in it.


This thread is fundamentally not about property defense but rather about self-defense when out and about... you know, the kinds of places where one needs a carry permit. (Not their own property)


Like in the watch store. His property yes, but that doesn't negate the fact that its a public place, where average citizens go in and out of multiple times a day. You or I may one day be in a store while it is being robbed, and if the shooting starts, I will be shootin back if possible and reloading if need be. I may do everything right and still end up dead, but I would go down fighting, and hopefully not because I ran out of ammo before the threat was stopped.

I don't always carry my spare mag at home because I have other options, rifles, shotguns etc. Out and about though, the pistol is it, backed up by another 13 rounds in my spare mag.

hamster
11-17-2011, 09:21
So he doesn't fit into your statistical profile, so the fact he ran out of ammo is dismissed?

Like Sam says, statistics are only as good as the question asked.

If you chase after jewelry store robbers, then ram their car with your truck in an effort to stop their escape, you are no longer acting in a self-defense capacity IMO. The immediate danger to his life was over, and he chose to run out of his store into the street and chose to confront 4 armed robbers by raming his truck into them.

Surely you can concede that this isn't the most intelligent behavior for someone trying to preserve their life.

RussP
11-17-2011, 09:21
Question: Have people run out of ammo or reloaded while defending themselves.

Answer: Yes.

Question: Should I prepare for that situation.

Answer: Depending on the risk variables in your life, the totality of circumstances, maybe yes, maybe no.

BailRecoveryAgent
11-17-2011, 09:22
American Handgunner March/April 2002.

Well now I'm convinced. LOL 2002? Its 2011. Ha Ha Ha Ha.
Dave

The only thing funny is you thinking the year it took place makes it irrelevant.

hamster
11-17-2011, 09:25
Question: Have people run out of ammo or reloaded while defending themselves.

Answer: Yes.

Question: Should I prepare for that situation.

Answer: Depending on the risk variables in your life, the totality of circumstances, maybe yes, maybe no.

Russ that wasn't the question. Anyone who has ever watched "Saving Private Ryan" knows it is possible to run out of ammo if you are in certain offensive occupations.

The question was, has a civilian ever run out of ammo in the capacity of CCW as in the title and opening post of the thread.

Since you are citing Jewelery store robberies where the owner hunts down a gang of 4 armed robbers as the reasoning behind carrying a spare mag, then I'll suggest that one spare mag may leave you woefully under-prepared.

hamster
11-17-2011, 09:26
Like in the watch store. His property yes, but that doesn't negate the fact that its a public place, where average citizens go in and out of multiple times a day. You or I may one day be in a store while it is being robbed, and if the shooting starts, I will be shootin back if possible and reloading if need be. I may do everything right and still end up dead, but I would go down fighting, and hopefully not because I ran out of ammo before the threat was stopped.

I don't always carry my spare mag at home because I have other options, rifles, shotguns etc. Out and about though, the pistol is it, backed up by another 13 rounds in my spare mag.

That is an excellent point! I can definitely get behind that reasoning.

RussP
11-17-2011, 09:28
If you chase after jewelry store robbers, then ram their car with your truck in an effort to stop their escape, you are no longer acting in a self-defense capacity IMO. The immediate danger to his life was over, and he chose to run out of his store into the street and chose to confront 4 armed robbers by raming his truck into them.

Surely you can concede that this isn't the most intelligent behavior for someone trying to preserve their life.Correct, not the choice I would make, but, did he fire all five cartridges from his revolver while the bad guys continued shooting at him?

hamster
11-17-2011, 09:30
Correct, not the choice I would make, but, did he fire all five cartridges from his revolver while the bad guys continued shooting at him?

He most certainly did. However that isn't the point. The point is, he didn't NEED more than the 5 cartridges in his revolver to fend off 4 armed robbers trying to kill him. His life was saved the moment they turned and ran away.

His life was not endangered for lack of ammunition, his life wan endangered for lack of common sense.

I really don't think this particular case study is one you'll want to plant your battle flag on. I think the watch store guy would make a much more reasonable case. :)

PS. I bought a Milt Sparks VMII for My G23 off Glocktalk a while back, the guy insisted on keeping it bundled with the dual mag carrier, I didn't want to wait 6 months so I bought the whole set. I may just break in the dual mag carrier today just for sh**s and giggles.

And on a related note. Does anyone know of a good low-profile spare mag carrier that might hold the mag horizontal on the belt and not make me look like Bruce Willis? I'd consider something that looks like a cell phone holder.

BleedNOrange
11-17-2011, 09:32
Always carry extra mags. If going on a trip I even take an extra box or two and usually an extra gun.

RussP
11-17-2011, 09:36
Question: Have people run out of ammo or reloaded while defending themselves.

Answer: Yes.

Question: Should I prepare for that situation.

Answer: Depending on the risk variables in your life, the totality of circumstances, maybe yes, maybe no.
Russ that wasn't the question. Anyone who has ever watched "Saving Private Ryan" knows it is possible to run out of ammo if you are in certain offensive occupations.

The question was, has a civilian ever run out of ammo in the capacity of CCW as in the title and opening post of the thread.

Since you are citing Jewelery store robberies where the owner hunts down a gang of 4 armed robbers as the reasoning behind carrying a spare mag, then I'll suggest that one spare mag may leave you woefully under-prepared.See what you did? You stopped at the first question and inserted a qualifier I did not.

What about the second question? "Should I prepare for running out of ammo, needing a reload?"

See how questions are important and how people can and do add conditions to fit their position?

RussP
11-17-2011, 09:40
He most certainly did. However that isn't the point. The point is, he didn't NEED more than the 5 cartridges in his revolver to fend off 4 armed robbers trying to kill him. His life was saved the moment they turned and ran away.

His life was not endangered for lack of ammunition, his life wan endangered for lack of common sense.

I really don't think this particular case study is one you'll want to plant your battle flag on. I think the watch store guy would make a much more reasonable case. :)

PS. I bought a Milt Sparks VMII for My G23 off Glocktalk a while back, the guy insisted on keeping it bundled with the dual mag carrier, I didn't want to wait 6 months so I bought the whole set. I may just break in the dual mag carrier today just for sh**s and giggles.He ran out of ammo and the bad guys kept shooting at him. Thanks...

H&K 4 LIFE
11-17-2011, 09:42
American Handgunner March/April 2002.

Well now I'm convinced. LOL 2002? Its 2011. Ha Ha Ha Ha.
Dave

I fail to see how the age of the article makes it any less relevant to the subject at hand. :dunno:

..Since you are citing Jewelery store robberies where the owner hunts down a gang of 4 armed robbers as the reasoning behind carrying a spare mag, then I'll suggest that one spare mag may leave you woefully under-prepared.

But yet still more prepared then having just what is in the gun. :supergrin:

hamster
11-17-2011, 09:44
See what you did? You stopped at the first question and inserted a qualifier I did not.

What about the second question? "Should I prepare for running out of ammo, needing a reload?"

See how questions are important and how people can and do add conditions to fit their position?

Your question was rhetorical by definition. "Asked and answered" if you will.

Question: Should I prepare for that situation.

Answer: Depending on the risk variables in your life, the totality of circumstances, maybe yes, maybe no.

I agree with your answer, and I suspect everyone here does. The argument here has never been that NOBODY needs spare mags. The argument has been about the need for the average civilian CCW to carry spare mags. We all agree and conceded that there are indeed people and situations for whom a higher level of armament if called for.

Nobody here (including John Rambo) has said that if you run a jewelry store that has been robbed 3 times that it would not behoove you to carry spare mags.

Our very own fellow glocktalker Dalton Wayne works in a BP station in the hood during the night shift. I'd suggest someone in his position should be armed with multiple mags at the very least. :)

RussP
11-17-2011, 10:01
I agree with your answer, and I suspect everyone here does. I would hope so.The argument here has never been that NOBODY needs spare mags. The argument has been about the need for the average civilian CCW to carry spare mags. We all agree and conceded that there are indeed people and situations for whom a higher level of armament if called for.

Nobody here (including John Rambo) has said that if you run a jewelry store that has been robbed 3 times that it would not behoove you to carry spare mags.No, but absent a special need recognized as legitimate by Mr. Rambo, that person is paranoid.Our very own fellow glocktalker Dalton Wayne works in a BP station in the hood during the night shift. I'd suggest someone in his position should be armed with multiple mags at the very least. :)Agreed...

RussP
11-17-2011, 10:03
American Handgunner March/April 2002.

Well now I'm convinced. LOL 2002? Its 2011. Ha Ha Ha Ha.
DaveI fail to see how the age of the article makes it any less relevant to the subject at hand. :dunno:69Charger, why is the date of the event laughable?

H&K 4 LIFE
11-17-2011, 10:06
... The argument has been about the need for the average civilian CCW to carry spare mags. We all agree and conceded that there are indeed people and situations for whom a higher level of armament if called for...

But this is operating under the assumption that "average" people are not sometimes violently attacked by multiple assailants. Time has proven to us that these types of violent crimes can be perpetrated without cause and entirely at random, and that these "average" people which you speak of are in some cases the intended victims.

hamster
11-17-2011, 10:12
But this is operating under the assumption that "average" people are not sometimes violently attacked by multiple assailants. Time has proven to us that these types of violent crimes can be perpetrated without cause and entirely at random, and that these "average" people which you speak of are in some cases the intended victims.

Absolutely. However, what time has NOT proven is that these violent crimes against average civilians have ever required the use of multiple magazines to defend against. :)

From everything I have seen written, the cowards who perpetrate these crimes against average civilians run at the first sign of armed resistance.

RussP
11-17-2011, 10:50
Absolutely. However, what time has NOT proven is that these violent crimes against average civilians have ever required the use of multiple magazines to defend against. :)

From everything I have seen written, the cowards who perpetrate these crimes against average civilians run at the first sign of armed resistance.As I've said before, you choice, your personal decision to live prepared for the expected is just that, yours. :thumbsup:

Me? I'll prepare for the unexpected. It's worked well for me for several decades.

:cool:

Sam Spade
11-17-2011, 12:11
I've been pretty busy the past couple days, and in fact will be even busier today. But feel free to specifically ask for a stat or two and I'll provide it. I don't have time to cite everything I type. If you doubt something, ask for the supporting material and I'll link you. But don't think I'm going to spoonfeed you every single little stat. You have Google, too.
Horsepucky. You haven't cited a thing, and no one's asked you to cite everything. But let's review.

Yes, there is a purpose to it.

To calm the irrational fears of the person carrying it. Its just a little chunk of metal - really not a whole lot of downside to doing so, except jerks on the internet will make fun of you for thinking you live in an action movie.

Please tell me the round count at which a "rational decision" alters to "paranoid". Since it's a rational decision in your book, you ought to be able to provide an objective answer.

Confusing, since you call a G19 "rational" at 15+1, but a 1911 "paranoid" at 7+1+7. Should a 5+0 J-frame be the standard? A 2+0 derringer?

The average number of rounds fired seems to be reported as 3. There is a 1/100 or 1/200 chance, I forget which (long time since I researched) that you'll be the victim of a violent crime each year in America - those rates of course vary when you factor in your city rather than America's aggregate crime rate. Every round you carry over 3, therefor, is exponentally (because in addition to having to use the multiplier for average number of shots, you have to use the .01 or .005 multiplier for the chance of being the victim of a violent crime) less likely to be used.

I have not called any specific weapons rational or irrational and would appreciate it if you did not make such claims until I do.

I keep my weapon fully loaded at 7+1 because it helps with the balance of it when I'm holding it and if I'm already carrying the weapon, there is absolutely no cons to keeping it loaded to capacity. It doesn't take any extra steps, it doesn't add additional objects to worry about, it doesn't add any extra failure points, it doesn't require any more dilligence on my part. Its just there.

Now, based on the fact that 3 is the average number, if you're preparing for a violent encounter by carrying, having a weapon with only 2 rounds would, statistically, make you underprepared.

John tells us that the mere presence of a spare magazine is irrational. As night follows day, a 1911 with a spare magazine must be paranoid. Yet a G19 fully loaded but lacking a spare magazine is not burdened with specter of being in an action movie and irrational fear. Tell us: At what round count do you cross from prepared to paranoid. Since this is a purely statistical issue in your world, it's quantifiable. Put up the number and logic.

Okay, so then explain the difference between number of rounds fired in self-defense shootings and the number of rounds fired in police shootings. You're attempting to lump the two statistics together, so the burdeon of proof is on you to explain HOW this statistical anomoly exists. Police fire a lot more rounds than people in self-defense shootings. And thats a FACT. You must now explain that fact and somehow manage to do so in a way that supports your arguement of lumping the two together.
Sure, let's look at the numbers. And let's look at a bit more than just shots fired:

Distance: Over half of LE shootings take place under 10'. The FBI says that 75% are under 10'.
Lighting: 62% in low-light, according to Metro-Dade.
And average number of shots per officer: 2.86, running from 1988-2001, according to NYPD. LAPD did a similar study in the 1970s showing 2.6. Portland did another study in 1992 showing 2.6 with revolvers, 4.6 with autoloaders. Metro-Dade did a 1994 study showing 2.5 revolvers, 3.2 autoloaders. Thirty years' of data showing remarkable consistency across time and location.


Conclusions: First, I have to say this. John, you don't know what you don't know. You're making assertions that just aren't supported by real life. As such, anything you're doing and calling "statistics" is just wrong. For one thing, police shootings do not fire "a lot" more rounds. Not normally.


You believe that police fire a lot more rounds than people, and that's a fact. Sam has provided actual numbers from around the country, data spanning thirty years. From the numbers, it's obvious that you don't know what you're talking about. Or maybe you can explain how 2.9, 2.6, 2.6, 3.2, 4.6 rounds per officer per incident are such huge increases over what you put up---that was "3", in case you forgot. Perhaps you have a cite for *that*?

I don't know how good you are with computers, but your assumed excellence there doesn't automatically transfer into another discipline. It's plain to see that any such skill hasn't transferred into statistics or the dynamics of self-defense.

Warp
11-17-2011, 12:56
Tell us: At what round count do you cross from prepared to paranoid. Since this is a purely statistical issue in your world, it's quantifiable. Put up the number and logic.


@ John Rambo: I would very much like to see an answer to this question. You said you would put up a stat or two. This will work. What's the number?

BTW: I hope you realize that your judgement of those who carry a spare magazine is no different than the millions who call you paranoid for carrying at all. ;)

BailRecoveryAgent
11-17-2011, 13:50
John tells us that the mere presence of a spare magazine is irrational. As night follows day, a 1911 with a spare magazine must be paranoid. Yet a G19 fully loaded but lacking a spare magazine is not burdened with specter of being in an action movie and irrational fear. Tell us: At what round count do you cross from prepared to paranoid. Since this is a purely statistical issue in your world, it's quantifiable. Put up the number and logic.


Thats the thing Sam, you've nailed it here. He's labeling individuals as paranoid based upon a person carrying an inanimate object, while failing to consider variables like magazine capacity and overall round count. A 1911 or pocket pea shooter with a 7+1 capacity backed by a spare 7 rounder is paranoia to him, but a Glock 19 loaded 15+1 gives you one extra round and that is somehow perfectly reasonable based upon his idealogy.

I would guess Mr. Rambo to be between the ages of 22-25 based upon his perceptions and inability to recognize errors in assessments. I know at that age I often argued things in the same manner.

poodleplumber
11-17-2011, 14:46
With no offense intended to those arguing against carrying spare mags, the thing that has struck me in reading through this thread is the circular nature of their argument. Civilians don't need to reload, unless they are at risk of needing a reload by being in a lengthening list of occupations, most of them legal, that are deemed to be high risk. The circle is this: civilians will never need to reload, because if you need a reload you are no longer considered a civilian. I will leave it to someone else to put a name to the special class that is composed of the jewelers, bankers, gold buyers, etc. that have been named in this argument, since by this argument they are no longer civilians, but they don't seem to qualify as military or LEOs, either.

I am interested to note that my occupation hasn't made the list - yet. I am a veterinarian, and there are abusable drugs in my office safe. I also take deposits to the bank once a week. Am I therefore considered non-civilian and therefore permitted to carry a spare mag? Please be careful with your answer, because the only alternative to receiving the permission of the naysayers as they present their arguments in this thread is to be diagnosed with paranoia. Paranoia is a mental illness that disqualifies one from purchasing firearms and ammunition in many jurisdictions, and could conceivably result in me losing my license to continue practicing my profession. (FWIW, I haven't needed a reload in over two decades of concealed carry. But then again, I haven't "needed" the pistol, either. I don't consider that a good reason to sell my guns.)

I also note that the argument against carrying spare mags focuses solely on the issue of needing additional rounds after a magazine is empty; the possibility of needing a magazine because of a mechanical failure has not been addressed for several pages. Is it really paranoid to acknowledge that mechanical failures exist? Should I turn in all my firearms, give up my medical license, and check into a mental health facility for saying that mechanical devices can fail?

Carrying a spare magazine is a reasonable option for some people. Doing so is not a symptom of paranoia or any other illness, and not doing so still leaves a firearm owner much better prepared than a large majority of the population. The whole debate needs to be toned down.

John Rambo
11-17-2011, 14:59
@ John Rambo: I would very much like to see an answer to this question. You said you would put up a stat or two. This will work. What's the number?

BTW: I hope you realize that your judgement of those who carry a spare magazine is no different than the millions who call you paranoid for carrying at all. ;)

Okay, check back a bit later tonight and I'll have something for you. Just finally got to read the thread today and don't have the time to research until I finish doing computer nerd stuff.

BTW: The difference between them and I? I've needed my gun. Have you ever needed a spare mag?

hamster
11-17-2011, 15:42
I will leave it to someone else to put a name to the special class that is composed of the jewelers, bankers, gold buyers, etc. that have been named in this argument, since by this argument they are no longer civilians, but they don't seem to qualify as military or

No offense taken, but clearly such professions are a sub-set of the ordinary citizen population that has a drastically higher risk profile because of the amount of cash/drugs on hand. Even fanatically anti-gun cities like NYC allow for special rules and permits for people in such super high-risk occupations. Hell even in some other countries these occupations can get exemptions to weapons prohibitions.

For the purposes of this thread we can draw a distinction between defending oneself when "out and about" vs when defending one's home/business/workspace.

Even in the people's republic of illinois, one can carry in their own business/or home. The case for home/business defense is a distinctly different question to the OP's question of how many magazines should I carry with me on my belt.

We may have many different opinions on what is the correct answer for our case, but lets not confuse home/business defense with the kind of carry that traditionally requires a CCW permit.

Wolf Spyder
11-17-2011, 16:09
I have concluded that Rambo and maybe a few others, I'm not entirely sure just yet, are all suffering from the same mistake...

Selective Sampling


I believe this is what poodleplumber was pointing out in his post in this thread. Also I find that I agree with BailRecoveryAgent, in his assessment of Rambo's maturity level.

Come to think of it, I'm sure this is why the folks over at Lightfighter.Com, and sometimes over at M4Carbine.Net, have no patients for Noobs, and take such a hostile attitude toward know-it-all's like Rambo that the Ban Hammer gets much exercise. I am a firm believer in reading more and posting less.

Edited to add:

I understand the purpose of this thread. The Original Poster wants to know about the merits of carrying an extra magazine or two. I would say this, don't take my word for it, and don't take the word of a Libtard like Rambo, go read what the experts have to say. Read about folks like; Clint Smith, Jim Cirillo, Walt Rauch, Geoff Metcalf, Massad Ayoob, Cyrus Baker, John Benner, Chris Costa, James Yeager, and so many more that I could keep going. They all advocate carrying at least one extra mag for your self defense tool.

RussP
11-17-2011, 16:14
BTW: The difference between them and I? I've needed my gun. Have you ever needed a spare mag?Did you discharge your firearm?

RussP
11-17-2011, 16:29
Come to think of it, I'm sure this is why the folks over at Lightfighter.Com, and sometimes over at M4Carbine.Net, have no patients for Noobs, and take such a hostile attitude toward know-it-all's like Rambo that the Ban Hammer gets much exercise. I am a firm believer in reading more and posting less.Here, Wolf, we're more into discussing, teaching, learning. Bannning someone just for being new, inexperienced, misinformed, or just disagreeable, rarely happens. Violating the rules such as personal attacks, abusive language, insulting language, that will get one banned. :cool:

Wolf Spyder
11-17-2011, 16:38
Here, Wolf, we're more into discussing, teaching, learning. Bannning someone just for being new, inexperienced, misinformed, or just disagreeable, rarely happens. Violating the rules such as personal attacks, abusive language, insulting language, that will get one banned. :cool:



Well, then, I should tone it down a notch, before the ban hammer swings my direction... :wavey:

ICARRY2
11-17-2011, 18:53
G19 or G26 with a spare G19 mag on my person and two G17 mags in vehicle.

jack76590
11-17-2011, 20:05
A pistol without ammunition is NOT a weapon. And as everyone knows you can't enter Valhalla, unless you die with a weapon in your hand.

zebramochaman
11-17-2011, 20:41
When I think about it I kind of chuckle at the absurdity of carrying as many rounds as I do with my Galco shoulder rig. My G-32 holds one in the chamber plus 13 in the mag plus two extra 13 round mags. That's 40 rounds. I might appreciate that amount of firepower if I meet up with a mob of BG's. In the most likely circumstance I would not need more than a few rounds from my installed mag. Whatever the situation, its better to have too much than not enough.
In a real-life situation your survival depends on putting your shots on target and in being able to reach a position of cover rather than concealment. Just remember that the BG only needs one shot to put you in a world of hurt. All of those extra rounds mean nothing if you have been dropped.

Warp
11-17-2011, 20:47
Okay, check back a bit later tonight and I'll have something for you. Just finally got to read the thread today and don't have the time to research until I finish doing computer nerd stuff.

BTW: The difference between them and I? I've needed my gun. Have you ever needed a spare mag?

You shouldn't have to research. You should already know based on the statements you are making in this thread. JMO

But I'll check back when I am online

Wolf Spyder
11-17-2011, 21:32
When I think about it I kind of chuckle at the absurdity of carrying as many rounds as I do with my Galco shoulder rig. ...My G-32 holds 13+1 plus two extra 13 round mags.

...In the most likely circumstance I would not need more than a few rounds from my installed mag. Whatever the situation, its better to have too much than not enough.

...Just remember that the BG only needs one shot to put you in a world of hurt. All of those extra rounds mean nothing if you have been dropped.



"We fight like we train". I don't believe in the Hollywood movie version of gun fighting. I am not going to crumple over from one shot. Baring a CNS strike, I have anywhere from 30 seconds to hours before I bleed out, I'm going to make the most of those moments. At the very least, God willing, I'm taking the bad guy(s) with me.

The Fist Of Goodness
11-17-2011, 22:09
And just when you thought it was safe to go back into the water... "Jaws 15" coming to a theater near you...

...Yup, there have been a couple of these types of threads.




It is my humble opinion that if you carry a gun, you should carry at least one spare magazine / reload. If for no other reason than; "It is better to have and not need, than to need and not have."

What if while your out and about, you do have a need to pull out your pistol and fire a few shots to save your own life... with out a reload, what do you put in the gun for the trip home? There are many reason why I carry spare magazines, but you have to put some thought into why you carry in the first place, especially if you are questioning the idea of having spare ammo, on your person, for your self defense tool.


This is my EDC;

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v378/Wolf_Spyder/JW7E2583small.jpg

And this is why I carry a 10mm;

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v378/Wolf_Spyder/IMG_0402_0403enhancedcroppedsmall.jpg

The 9mm expanded to 1/2 an inch, the 10mm expanded to 1.20 inches. So, the 10mm tripled in diameter, and hits with twice the kinetic energy.





Food for thought.

you can never have enough loaded magazines...

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v378/Wolf_Spyder/JW7E2578small.jpg








I could tell you carried a 10 MM just by your font size. :wow::tongueout:

RussP
11-18-2011, 08:29
The question was, has a civilian ever run out of ammo in the capacity of CCW as in the title and opening post of the thread. Actually, no, it wasn't/isn't. Here is the title and the original post. any purpose to carrying an extra mag?

i bought a Glock extra mag holder for my belt, but now i wondering why i did

it just seems foolish to think id ever need more than 10 shots for any situation when the odds are 99.99999% that i will ever even draw my gun

do any of you carry a spare mag?The answers to the title question are 1) to replace a malfunctioning magazine, 2) to provide additional ammunition, if needed, 3) It is better to have and not need, than to need and not have, and 4) to balance the load on your belt.

The answer to the only question in the body of the post is yes, for some of us. We do carry an extra magazine or extra magazines for one or more of the four aforementioned reasons.

The OP, huggytree, is a resident of Wisconsin, a 20+ year gun owner, just bought his third Glock, a G27, the first week of November, and, he received his Wisconsin CWL on the 16th. His questions were simple and were answered. So, in Post #21, he thanked everyone and asked for recommendations for a better mag carrier than the Glock plastic one.

Not being satisfied with the responses from those who favor carrying an extra mag for reasons 1), 2) and 3), 69Charger and Mr. Rambo accuse everyone who carries extra ammunition as being paranoid. You, along with Mr. Rambo, well y'all are "show me where it's happened" types. In addition, you an Mr. Rambo want to set very tight parameters as to who qualifies to be included in self defense shootings. I'll use your post as the example.I have never seen any documented cases of a civilian* SD encounter outside the house requiring more than a couple of shots. Every documented case I've seen when the civilian pulls a weapon, the BD flees. They may fire a shot or two while fleeing, but they never stay around to count how many rounds the civilian is carrying.

If anyone can send me a link to a single story of a SD situation involving an average civilian* CCW outside of their home** running out of ammo or requiring a reload, I'll re-consider my faith in revolvers.

Unless I'm planning on storming a beach in Normandy, 5 shots is plenty for social situations.

*Please note, my definition of an average civilian is a person who is not a LEO, armed guard, jewelry store owner, cash courier, bodyguard, Bruce Willis, person with a stalker, world leader, drug lord or other people in dangerous professions. People in those specific classes may have reason to require higher firepower.

**Home invasion/domestic violence scenarios don't count here as I'm talking about CCW for the average citizen. Inside the home I don't consider to be CCWing, at home one can have an Arsenal big enough to defend the Alamo.Well, based on your very, very narrow field of eligible cases, rounds fired, reloads, firing to slide lock and needing a reload, none have been reported. If you include citizens who carry and are business employees and owners firing in self defense, the facts change, but they are different. AND, if you add in police self defense shootings the facts are even more in favor of carrying extra ammunition, especially those who carry a five or six-shot revolver, a 7+1 1911, even a semi-auto with a 10+1 round capacity.

Mas Ayoob and others say, "If you think about it, the armed citizen carries a gun to deal with the same bad guys the cops face." Yep, that's true, isn't it. The general difference is cops go looking for bad guys at times and in places where they can find the bad guys. Us armed citizens are sought out by those bad guys when and where they can find us.

We need to gather information from every self-defense shooting where there might be something to learn, regardless of the participants. We need to use all that information to decide how we personally will carry.

As to dismissing other people's personal experiences, again, we need to use all that information to decide how we personally will carry.

You all use what you want to make your decisions. Present the facts you used to help others make their decisions. Just don't try to suppress information provided by others. That one piece of additional information from someone else might be what prepares a fellow carrier for that 1:1,000,000 encounter with a bad guy.

eaglefrq
11-18-2011, 08:49
:goodpost: 100% correct

H&K 4 LIFE
11-18-2011, 09:08
5 rounds is enough? I think 5 rounds is way too many! If you need that many rounds, your paranoid.

Everyone should just carry a double barrel derringer with two rounds in it. Because heck, many other people didn't even need to shoot in self-defense so I am going to go ahead and assume that, although the circumstances surrounding my situation may be unique and entirely different, I won't need to shoot either and that my gun is a magic talisman that wards off evil by it's mere presence.

If anyone can cite any cases to the contrary... please post a link.

However, do not post any evidence that includes any woman (as they are at a higher risk of sexual assault), people who live in cities, people who wear nice clothing/jewelry, people who drive nice cars, or people who actually leave their house on occasion. These people are not "average" citizens and have a higher "risk profile".

:rofl:

hamster
11-18-2011, 12:17
...In addition, you an Mr. Rambo want to set very tight parameters as to who qualifies to be included in self defense shootings. I'll use your post as the example....

...We need to gather information from every self-defense shooting where there might be something to learn, regardless of the participants. We need to use all that information to decide how we personally will carry...

I have to respectfully disagree on this point. We do need to make distinctions between ordinary civilians and those folks who are regarded the world over as being in high risk positions. Let me elaborate:

First, this forum is called Carry issues. Carry as I would define it is any situation where a CCW license is traditionally required.

This discussion would be very different if the OP had said "I as a police officer, how many spare mags should I carry." Clearly police carry is a whole different animal than citizen carry.

If you really and truly feel that you face the same level of personal danger than your average police officer, then I'd venture to say that nearly every member of this forum (with the possible exception of Wolf "Book of Eli" Spyder ) is woefully under-prepared.

Nobody In this entire thread has suggested wearing body armor, and carrying spare mags, backups guns and always traveling with a partner. So clearly the folks participating here understand that there is a fundamental difference to civilian carry and police work. It is for this reason that I exclude police work from the set of relevant statistics.

To try to draw a conclusion from every single self-defense shooting without including context is intellectually dishonest IMO.

So far the single non LEO instance of multiple mags or weapons being used that has been pointed out is the case of the watch store owner. A fellow running a jewelry store that has been robbed 3 times in the past. No matter what you might think, this is certainly FAR from the norm. If you want to prepare for that guy's level of risk then I'd suggest 1 spare mag isn't going to cut it. If that is the example you want to plant your battle flag on then so be it... I'll certainly accept that before I'd accept LEO statistics.

hamster
11-18-2011, 12:20
Actually, no, it wasn't/isn't. Here is the title and the original post.The answers to the title question are 1) to replace a malfunctioning magazine, 2) to provide additional ammunition, if needed, 3) It is better to have and not need, than to need and not have, and 4) to balance the load on your belt.

The answer to the only question in the body of the post is yes, for some of us. We do carry an extra magazine or extra magazines for one or more of the four aforementioned reasons.

Quite frankly if those are truly your concerns, then it would be much wiser to instead carry a backup gun it is financially feasible.

ancient_serpent
11-18-2011, 12:20
RussP....FTW. Nicely worded, sir.

BailRecoveryAgent
11-18-2011, 12:23
I have to respectfully disagree on this point. We do need to make distinctions between ordinary civilians and those folks who are regarded the world over as being in high risk positions. Let me elaborate:

First, this forum is called Carry issues. Carry as I would define it is any situation where a CCW license is traditionally required.

This discussion would be very different if the OP had said "I as a police officer, how many spare mags should I carry." Clearly police carry is a whole different animal than citizen carry.

If you really and truly feel that you face the same level of personal danger than your average police officer, then I'd venture to say that nearly every member of this forum (with the possible exception of Wolf "Book of Eli" Spyder ) is woefully under-prepared.

Nobody In this entire thread has suggested wearing body armor, and carrying spare mags, backups guns and always traveling with a partner. So clearly the folks participating here understand that there is a fundamental difference to civilian carry and police work. It is for this reason that I exclude police work from the set of relevant statistics.

To try to draw a conclusion from every single self-defense shooting without including context is intellectually dishonest IMO.

Read below, Mr. Ayoob, a police officer, trainer, expert on many things gun related seems to disagree with that assessment of separating cops and civilian encounters.

In several of Lance Thomas' watch shop shootings, he went through multiple guns when they ran dry, the equivalent of needing a reload. The same was true in a jewelry store shooting in Richmond, VA that I've studied. One poster on that thread has, I believe, already cited the case of an armed citizen who ran to slide-lock in a shootout with two armed robbers. He had killed the first and wounded the second before running dry. Had that second perp not chosen to flee, the good guy's second magazine would have been desperately needed.

If you think about it, the armed citizen carries a gun to deal with the same bad guys the cops face. The cops seem to have determined that two reloads are a good idea. If the bad guys have signed a treaty to take it easier on armed citizens than on cops, I am unaware of it.

best,
Mas

RussP, if posting Mas' quote from the GATE forum is against the rules, I apologize, remove if necessary but I thought his insight was relevant here.

hamster
11-18-2011, 12:23
5 rounds is enough? I think 5 rounds is way too many! If you need that many rounds, your paranoid.

Everyone should just carry a double barrel derringer with two rounds in it. Because heck, many other people didn't even need to shoot in self-defense so I am going to go ahead and assume that, although the circumstances surrounding my situation may be unique and entirely different, I won't need to shoot either and that my gun is a magic talisman that wards off evil by it's mere presence.

If anyone can cite any cases to the contrary... please post a link.

However, do not post any evidence that includes any woman (as they are at a higher risk of sexual assault), people who live in cities, people who wear nice clothing/jewelry, people who drive nice cars, or people who actually leave their house on occasion. These people are not "average" citizens and have a higher "risk profile".

:rofl:

As cute as you think you are with your comment, I can very easily point out a case. The ex-Marine from the Massad Ayoob example pointed out earlier in this thread. He expended 7 rounds in the act of defending himself.

You see, if something is so common and imminent of a threat that everyone MUST be prepared for it, it is pretty friggin' easy to find an example of it actually happening.

hamster
11-18-2011, 12:29
Read below, Mr. Ayoob, a police officer, trainer, expert on many things gun related seems to disagree with that assessment of separating cops and civilian encounters.



RussP, if posting Mas' quote from the GATE forum is against the rules, I apologize, remove if necessary but I thought his insight was relevant here.



Bail, there is the rub. In the section you quoted Mas says that we as citizens face the same bad guys the cops do. Of course that is true... however when a bad guy is face with a cop, it becomes a struggle of get away or die/go to jail forever.

In cases of civilian shootings the bad guys seem to just flee. They aren't being cornered and threatened with capture. Fundamentally police encounters with bad guys aren't self-defense. It is rare that a bad guy goes looking to mug, molest or kill a police officer out of the blue. Police usually go looking for the bad guy.

Self-defense involves someone going about their own business having someone else (bad guy) come after them.





All that aside, lets assume you are 100% right. What is the ideal number of mags to carry? Shouldn't you and Mas be promoting that we travel with the same level of armament as most cops?

hamster
11-18-2011, 12:43
duplicate post

Warp
11-18-2011, 12:47
I have to respectfully disagree on this point. We do need to make distinctions between ordinary civilians and those folks who are regarded the world over as being in high risk positions. Let me elaborate:

First, this forum is called Carry issues. Carry as I would define it is any situation where a CCW license is traditionally required.

This discussion would be very different if the OP had said "I as a police officer, how many spare mags should I carry." Clearly police carry is a whole different animal than citizen carry.

If you really and truly feel that you face the same level of personal danger than your average police officer, then I'd venture to say that nearly every member of this forum (with the possible exception of Wolf "Book of Eli" Spyder ) is woefully under-prepared.

Nobody In this entire thread has suggested wearing body armor, and carrying spare mags, backups guns and always traveling with a partner. So clearly the folks participating here understand that there is a fundamental difference to civilian carry and police work. It is for this reason that I exclude police work from the set of relevant statistics.

To try to draw a conclusion from every single self-defense shooting without including context is intellectually dishonest IMO.

So far the single non LEO instance of multiple mags or weapons being used that has been pointed out is the case of the watch store owner. A fellow running a jewelry store that has been robbed 3 times in the past. No matter what you might think, this is certainly FAR from the norm. If you want to prepare for that guy's level of risk then I'd suggest 1 spare mag isn't going to cut it. If that is the example you want to plant your battle flag on then so be it... I'll certainly accept that before I'd accept LEO statistics.


The very same bad guys that police officers prepare for victimize regular citizens. That is generally why the police face them...because they victimize regular citizens. And the police have radios to bring more police, they typically have more training, often have a backup gun, often have a long gun in the car, might have a dog, wear kevlar, etc...and yet the typical minimum is a full size semi auto + two additional magazines.

hamster
11-18-2011, 12:51
The very same bad guys that police officers prepare for victimize regular citizens. That is generally why the police face them...because they victimize regular citizens. And the police have radios to bring more police, they typically have more training, often have a backup gun, often have a long gun in the car, might have a dog, wear kevlar, etc...and yet the typical minimum is a full size semi auto + two additional magazines.

See that is rationale I can get behind. If that is the recommendation for carry because the assertion is we are under the same threat as police, I think this is a 100% legitimate and well reasoned recommendation on what to carry.

BailRecoveryAgent
11-18-2011, 12:53
Bail, there is the rub. In the section you quoted Mas says that we as citizens face the same bad guys the cops do. Of course that is true... however when a bad guy is face with a cop, it becomes a struggle of get away or die/go to jail forever.

In cases of civilian shootings the bad guys seem to just flee. They aren't being cornered and threatened with capture. Fundamentally police encounters with bad guys aren't self-defense. It is rare that a bad guy goes looking to mug, molest or kill a police officer out of the blue. Police usually go looking for the bad guy.

Self-defense involves someone going about their own business having someone else (bad guy) come after them.

All that aside, lets assume you are 100% right. What is the ideal number of mags to carry? Shouldn't you and Mas be promoting that we travel with the same level of armament as most cops?

So all civilian shootings end with the bad guy fleeing? In a shootout with a civilian, the suspect isn't in a stuggle to get away or die/go to prison?

As far as spare mags go, as many as a person wants to carry is ideal. For me, that's 1 or 2. More doesn't make one paranoid, just more prepared than I.


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BamaTrooper
11-18-2011, 12:54
i bought a Glock extra mag holder for my belt, but now i wondering why i did

it just seems foolish to think id ever need more than 10 shots for any situation when the odds are 99.99999% that i will ever even draw my gun

do any of you carry a spare mag?

Reasons to carry a spare
1-Mag failure
2-Lost mag
3-Stoppages
4-It doesn't weigh much
5-You just might need it
Reasons not to carry a spare
1-Lazy
2-Uncomfortable
3-???

Sharky7
11-18-2011, 12:59
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v378/Wolf_Spyder/JW7E2583small.jpg






What's up with the radio? What kind of clothes do you wear to conceal all of this on your person?

rpgman
11-18-2011, 13:02
I carry two extra 15 round mags along with my G27.
Greg

BailRecoveryAgent
11-18-2011, 13:43
What's up with the radio? What kind of clothes do you wear to conceal all of this on your person?

I believe Wolf Spyder is a medic/emt. That would explain the scanner.

Cream Soda Kid
11-18-2011, 14:36
Actually, no, it wasn't/isn't. Here is the title and the original post.The answers to the title question are 1) to replace a malfunctioning magazine, 2) to provide additional ammunition, if needed, 3) It is better to have and not need, than to need and not have, and 4) to balance the load on your belt.

The answer to the only question in the body of the post is yes, for some of us. We do carry an extra magazine or extra magazines for one or more of the four aforementioned reasons.

The OP, huggytree, is a resident of Wisconsin, a 20+ year gun owner, just bought his third Glock, a G27, the first week of November, and, he received his Wisconsin CWL on the 16th. His questions were simple and were answered. So, in Post #21, he thanked everyone and asked for recommendations for a better mag carrier than the Glock plastic one.

Not being satisfied with the responses from those who favor carrying an extra mag for reasons 1), 2) and 3), 69Charger and Mr. Rambo accuse everyone who carries extra ammunition as being paranoid. You, along with Mr. Rambo, well y'all are "show me where it's happened" types. In addition, you an Mr. Rambo want to set very tight parameters as to who qualifies to be included in self defense shootings. I'll use your post as the example.Well, based on your very, very narrow field of eligible cases, rounds fired, reloads, firing to slide lock and needing a reload, none have been reported. If you include citizens who carry and are business employees and owners firing in self defense, the facts change, but they are different. AND, if you add in police self defense shootings the facts are even more in favor of carrying extra ammunition, especially those who carry a five or six-shot revolver, a 7+1 1911, even a semi-auto with a 10+1 round capacity.

Mas Ayoob and others say, "If you think about it, the armed citizen carries a gun to deal with the same bad guys the cops face." Yep, that's true, isn't it. The general difference is cops go looking for bad guys at times and in places where they can find the bad guys. Us armed citizens are sought out by those bad guys when and where they can find us.

We need to gather information from every self-defense shooting where there might be something to learn, regardless of the participants. We need to use all that information to decide how we personally will carry.

As to dismissing other people's personal experiences, again, we need to use all that information to decide how we personally will carry.

You all use what you want to make your decisions. Present the facts you used to help others make their decisions. Just don't try to suppress information provided by others. That one piece of additional information from someone else might be what prepares a fellow carrier for that 1:1,000,000 encounter with a bad guy.

As always, well stated Russ, thank you. :wavey:

rpgman
11-18-2011, 14:44
As always, well stated Russ, thank you. :wavey:


yes, VERY well stated.
I also thank you Russ.
Greg