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dlrow
11-17-2011, 19:35
Looks like there was a series of bad decisions that will at least cost this young man his badge.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2058486/Federal-agent-charged-murder-McDonalds-Hawaii.html

The picture of the agent looks to be from FLETC.

RocPO
11-17-2011, 20:11
Looks like there was a series of bad decisions that will at least cost this young man his badge.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2058486/Federal-agent-charged-murder-McDonalds-Hawaii.html

The picture of the agent looks to be from FLETC.

If the article is anywhere near true, this idiot has more to worry about then losing his shield. Like prison time.

txleapd
11-17-2011, 20:15
Nothing good happens at 3 o'clock in the morning.

RocPO
11-17-2011, 20:27
Nothing good happens at 3 o'clock in the morning.

Yep. At that point, you're probably taking the ugly chick home at best :rofl:

matt86
11-17-2011, 20:59
Yep. At that point, you're probably taking the ugly chick home at best :rofl:

Whats wrong with taking the ugly chick? :whistling:

packsaddle
11-17-2011, 21:17
in high school, my dad always justified my midnight curfew by saying "there ain't nothing to do after midnight that can't be done before midnight".

that midnight curfew probably saved my life back then.

RocPO
11-17-2011, 21:27
Whats wrong with taking the ugly chick? :whistling:

With that mindset, you can be my wingman any day :wavey:

ChiefWPD
11-17-2011, 21:36
DSS guys are well trained and carefully vetted. This is a tragic situation on a number of levels.

Ajon412
11-17-2011, 23:52
I'd say let the facts play out......Apparently, there seems to be more to this incident than what's being reported...

PinkoCommie
11-18-2011, 07:16
Whats wrong with taking the ugly chick? :whistling:

Nothing. As long as she's gone before you're sober and it's light outside.

:embarassed:

Cochese
11-18-2011, 09:15
Probably a legit SD shooting but he will be screwed over alcohol content.

Sharkey
11-18-2011, 09:16
I'll hold my judgment till more info. is released. We were in Maui (first time) a couple months ago and it is a bit different on the islands. The fact that he was charged w/ murder so quickly doesn't surprise me unfortunately.

DSS guys from what I've seen (not a lot) seem to have their crap together.

merlynusn
11-18-2011, 09:24
I think one of the articles I read said he pretty much just walked up and shot the other guy in the chest. The McDonalds was full of people too. I'll try to find the article.

imaguy3
11-18-2011, 09:26
Nothing. As long as she's gone before you're sober and it's light outside.

:embarassed:

and your friends don't find out...

Cochese
11-18-2011, 09:53
I think one of the articles I read said he pretty much just walked up and shot the other guy in the chest. The McDonalds was full of people too. I'll try to find the article.

Holy crap.

A6Gator
11-18-2011, 10:09
DSS guys are well trained and carefully vetted. This is a tragic situation on a number of levels.

DS pretty much take their pick from a lot of top-tier candidates. Discretion is a major virtue. Obviously this guy got outside the lines...

msu_grad_121
11-18-2011, 11:04
Nothing. As long as she's gone before you're sober and it's light outside.

:embarassed:

Ah, I'm glad to see I'm not the only one with what I call the "sliding scale of standards." :supergrin:

I agree with Cochese. Even money says this wouldn't get a second look if he was under .02, but given these circumstances... :dunno:

Kadetklapp
11-18-2011, 11:21
Is it odd to be 27 and working for DSS? Thought most guys that the feds want do a few years on the street, several years in investigations, and then they start applying for .gov jobs...

dlrow
11-18-2011, 11:37
Is it odd to be 27 and working for DSS? Thought most guys that the feds want do a few years on the street, several years in investigations, and then they start applying for .gov jobs...

My understanding is that he has been a special agent for 2 years. It's not that unusual to start as a special agent in your mid 20s.

FBI wants Agents as you described. Ages range quite a bit at fletc. I was an old fart when I was there in 09. I started when I was 35

It's unclear to me if this guy was a dss sa or a agent from another part of dept of state. (oig maybe).

My understanding of dss is similar to what others have said. those guys are the cream of the crop.

Mayhem like Me
11-18-2011, 13:01
Everything I have seen has bene phrased like "according to the victims family"

So I will let this play out and see what official information comes out..


and he showed extremely poor judgement being in the same area as a guy he had a beef with... in his job you leave and minimize your exposure and only act in self defense when you cannot evade teh problem..

my spider sense says he really screwed up.

igor
11-18-2011, 17:57
i be ame allergic to alcohol while in vietnam, so i havent had anything to drink since 1969. i ha ve thanked my stars many times since then. i hope he makes out all right

G22Dude
11-18-2011, 21:02
Everything I have seen has bene phrased like "according to the victims family"

So I will let this play out and see what official information comes out..


and he showed extremely poor judgement being in the same area as a guy he had a beef with... in his job you leave and minimize your exposure and only act in self defense when you cannot evade teh problem..

my spider sense says he really screwed up.

If boys and girls who carry the badge would only take this advise we would not see half of the incidents we do. Walk away from the issue. Let the idiot who is causing trouble run his mouth or act like a fool. You walk away

I often try to explain to my wife that I don't allow anyone to ruffle my feathers because I have a higher level of accountability than Bozo the Clown here who wants to show the world that he's macho.

I feel horrible if this kid pissed his life away because of some night club beef.

bigzebra
11-18-2011, 21:09
I have a buddy who is a DSS agent. He is quite literally one of the most intelligent individuals I know. And their vetting process appears to be one of the most difficult out of all of the federal agencies.

That being said, I've heard Hawaiians have a, shall we say, have a 'us vs. them' mentality when it comes to islanders as opposed to mainlanders. I usually avoid generalizations, but this attitude could play a crucial role as to why he was booked on Murder 2. It also appears the 'victim' in this case was a local ****head.

Regarding the 'us vs. them' mentality, does anyone recall the federal agent who was hemmed up for a clearly justified shooting on (I believe) the Virgin Islands?

It will be interesting to see how this plays out.

ETA: I'm also under the impression the bad guy was armed with a knife and flourished it during the incident.

blueiron
11-18-2011, 22:27
Is it odd to be 27 and working for DSS? Thought most guys that the feds want do a few years on the street, several years in investigations, and then they start applying for .gov jobs...


For a uniform position perhaps, but not so much for 1811 postings.

lawman800
11-19-2011, 04:44
From what I have seen and all that I have been told... DSS agents are the elite and very discrete as their jobs pretty much mandate a high level of maturity, responsibility, and decision making.

27 years old and have been on for two years seem odd because I remember when I was 25 and starting out in uniform and I was a totally green dumb **** that survived some dumb mistakes and got lucky a few times when I didn't make the best of decisions in life... as with most young'uns.

I wish for the truth to prevail here and no local partisan politics or federal blame shifting to scape goat to ruin lives beyond the one death that already occurred.

merlynusn
11-19-2011, 10:15
According to http://www.staradvertiser.com/news/20111106_Federal_agent_arrested_in_fatal_shooting.html the DSS agent was located and arrested down the street.

I don't know if that's because he went there to call 911 and wait for them or if he was trying to leave. Obviously the articles don't say and since I'm not involved I don't really know. If he left the McDonalds and did not call 911 immediately, then I'd be less likely to believe it was a self defense shooting. If he left, called 911 and waited nearby, then it could be self defense.

DMF
11-21-2011, 02:07
According to If he left the McDonalds and did not call 911 immediately, then I'd be less likely to believe it was a self defense shooting. If he left, called 911 and waited nearby, then it could be self defense.Whether or not it was a justified use of force or not, is determined by what occurred prior to and at the time the force was used, NOT by what happened after the force was used.

:upeyes:

msu_grad_121
11-21-2011, 02:46
Whether or not it was a justified use of force or not, is determined by what occurred prior to and at the time the force was used, NOT by what happened after the force was used.

:upeyes:

You're right, but by that same token, it LOOKS guilty for him to "run." On the presumption that an innocent person defending themselves fully within the law wouldn't flee the scene, to find him down the street doesn't look good. Hopefully, it was a good shoot and he merely relocated himself in the interests of self preservation, but all it takes is a slightly overzealous prosecutor to make the case that "if it wasn't murder, why did he run like it was?"

Sad situation all the way around.

Defender77
11-21-2011, 04:12
There's been a lot of info put out by the attorney for the family of the man shot and killed...and the family has already filed a civil suit against the agent.

First the lawyer said the agent and deceased had some sort of confrontation at a nearby bar in Waikiki, then he retracted his story.

Personally, I think the lawyer is just trying to taint the potential jury pool.


Another article said the agent stayed with the deceased and was performing CPR on him and it also said he refused to take a test to determine if he was intoxicated at the time of his arrest.


Hawaii is a very criminal friendly state, in that the criminals seem to have more rights than the law abiding people.

To kill someone in self-defense, you can expect to be arrested for murder....even if it's to defend your life while in your own place of residence.

It's up to the prosecutor's office to decide whether to go forward with the case or not.

Some locals also enjoy picking on mainlanders in Waikiki and it's not uncommon for a drunk tourist to be beaten/robbed.

They travel in packs, and are not used to their victims being armed with a firearm, as the state is very strict in issuing concealed gun permits. (with the APEC meeting, I heard there were a lot of Federal people in Hawaii at that time with concealed guns).

I think the deceased (local man) had a bit of a rude awakening.


I believe it's a "may issue" state, not a "shall issue."

lawman800
11-21-2011, 05:19
HI is one of few states with worse laws than CA when it comes to guns. Their rules regarding the purchase of guns make our process seem almost like an express lane.

In any event, the perpetrator's actions afterwards can definitely evince guilt if the act is to flee the scene. There is a presumption in law that flight equals guilt.

merlynusn
11-21-2011, 09:35
And that's why the Agent's actions immediately following the shooting are very important. If he relocated to call 911 because the crowd was unruly, then I can understand that. If he was giving CPR to the guy, then that shows he believes he was justified and acting as an Agent, but it doesn't explain why he was found a couple doors down. If he was trying to get away, then to me, he seems guilty or there is at least more to the story.

While I agree the shoot is justified based upon what occurs prior to the shooting, the actions taken immediately following the shooting shine a window into the "suspect's" mindset. Innocent people don't run unless it's to get away from a hostile threat.

I'm also sure that Defender is right in that people don't expect you to be armed in Hawaii and that is a plausible explanation to what happened. Local thug trying to act stupid and the guy he picked just happened to be an armed agent. Should he be armed while drinking? Nope, not at all. It leads to situations like this. Imagine if he had taken the breathalyzer. They could report he was stone cold sober as opposed to "i don't know if he had been drinking, but he refused the breathalyzer." Which everyone takes to mean he had been drinking or else he'd have done it.

And yes, I do know that many people get charged with murder and it's up to the DA's office to try to figure out if it is self defense or not and whether or not to proceed with a trial.

Mayhem like Me
11-21-2011, 09:46
Whether or not it was a justified use of force or not, is determined by what occurred prior to and at the time the force was used, NOT by what happened after the force was used.

:upeyes:

That works for everyone BUT the police, we as you know also will be judged on if we followed policy...

I am pretty sure that policy would only allow him to leave the scene if it was so hostile it was the only way, otherwiswe he should have been controlling it ,protecting the crime scene and summoning medical assistance.

DaBigBR
11-21-2011, 11:23
Whether or not it was a justified use of force or not, is determined by what occurred prior to and at the time the force was used, NOT by what happened after the force was used.

:upeyes:

That's true, but a person's actions after the fact can add perspective to their actions before the fact. They (actions after the fact) would definitely be admissible.

TKOFaith
11-21-2011, 12:05
Sub'd for updates!

Mayhem like Me
11-21-2011, 13:32
this article talks of a Karate kick and struggle...

http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/lawyer-bullying-led-hawaii-shooting-agent-14974691

Defender77
11-21-2011, 14:03
Lawyer Michael Green is representing the dead man's family and lawyer Brook Hart is defending the agent....both I think are top tier attornies in Hawaii so the trial, if there is one, should be interesting.

There's a comments section below some of the online articles and it was mentioned somewhere that the agent entered the McDonalds with some other people but it didn't mention who they were.

Someone posted in an online comment that would we be surprised if the other people who were supposedly with the agent were also Federal agents, as well?

lawman800
11-21-2011, 14:28
If there were other federal agents with him, they will not talk either because they are now part of the investigation. Newspapers and forums can speculate all they want.

Defender77
11-21-2011, 14:39
Here is an update: http://www.staradvertiser.com/news/breaking/134241893.html?id=134241893

Defender77
11-21-2011, 14:46
If there were other federal agents with him, they will not talk either because they are now part of the investigation. Newspapers and forums can speculate all they want.

Very true.

Mayhem like Me
11-21-2011, 14:53
If there were other federal agents with him, they will not talk either because they are now part of the investigation. Newspapers and forums can speculate all they want.

My guess is they were not Agents, rather employees he was assigned to protect...

Sgt127
11-21-2011, 15:11
this article talks of a Karate kick and struggle...

http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/lawyer-bullying-led-hawaii-shooting-agent-14974691

This sure is mentioned rather casually:

Police said a knife was recovered at the scene.

lawman800
11-21-2011, 15:19
My guess is they were not Agents, rather employees he was assigned to protect...

Ah... so the plot thickens... so he was escorting a bunch of aides and assistants to the real dignitaries... who were out of the country for the first time and wanted some "authentic" American cuisine from Mickey D's... and the visiting aides and assistants may have irked the locals when they were confounded by the McSushi and McRamen and McSpam Masubi on the menu, at which point the locals told the foreign invaders to go suck on a Maori spear.

Defender77
11-21-2011, 15:37
This sure is mentioned rather casually:

Police said a knife was recovered at the scene.


From the reports it doesn't sound like a knife was ever pulled.

Also, the Prosecutors office charged the agent pretty quickly....and they went so far as to indict him.


My noob opinion and from what I've read about Hawaii is the standards for using deadly force for self defense there are ridiculously high.


A man and wife were at home in their ground floor apartment during broad daylight, when some crazy guy entered their house and began to attack the man. I forget if the attacker had a knife, but the homeowner used deadly force on the guy and he wound up being arrested....though he was never charged and was eventually released.

That's why I say in Hawaii the criminals have more rights than the innocent.

Mayhem like Me
11-21-2011, 19:25
Hawaii is not White male mainlander friendly, if you don't know it's one of the most bigoted racist areas you can go,, they tolerate tourists for the economy.. I attended HS there my freshman year and survived kill haole day because I was a good football player and my teammates had big brothers that liked me. may have changed but in the late 70's you did not want to be the white guy in the wrong area....

dlrow
11-22-2011, 01:13
Ah... so the plot thickens... so he was escorting a bunch of aides and assistants to the real dignitaries... who were out of the country for the first time and wanted some "authentic" American cuisine from Mickey D's... and the visiting aides and assistants may have irked the locals when they were confounded by the McSushi and McRamen and McSpam Masubi on the menu, at which point the locals told the foreign invaders to go suck on a Maori spear.

Going out drinking with protectees sounds like a deleted scene from superbad. "kick his ass McLovin, I'll hold your piņa coloda"

series1811
11-22-2011, 01:22
Probably a legit SD shooting but he will be screwed over alcohol content.

It took a while for it to sink in for me, but I finally figured out that in the 21st century, good shooting + alcohol = bad shooting.

I don't agree with it, but I didn't agree with free agency for Pro Football, either.

lawman800
11-22-2011, 11:21
Good anything duty related + alcohol = bad

Cochese
11-22-2011, 11:25
It took a while for it to sink in for me, but I finally figured out that in the 21st century, good shooting + alcohol = bad shooting.

I don't agree with it, but I didn't agree with free agency for Pro Football, either.

Yeah, it ain't like my grandpa's days. :rofl:

Newcop761
11-22-2011, 21:02
This article says S/A Deedy was "slashed on the forehead" but it's not apparent in the booking photo.

I would like to read the arrest report.

It sounds like the ambulance chaser Green is trying to poison the jury pool.

lawman800
11-23-2011, 00:10
Wouldn't be the first time a lawyer pulled dirty tricks to get an advantage in the case.

merlynusn
11-23-2011, 11:01
This article says S/A Deedy was "slashed on the forehead" but it's not apparent in the booking photo.

I would like to read the arrest report.

It sounds like the ambulance chaser Green is trying to poison the jury pool.

If he was slashed in the forehead, then I'd say it's a good shoot.

series1811
11-23-2011, 11:56
This article says S/A Deedy was "slashed on the forehead" but it's not apparent in the booking photo.

I would like to read the arrest report.

It sounds like the ambulance chaser Green is trying to poison the jury pool.

And, this is a good point to make. A lot of times, having the shot guy handcuffed and under arrest for assault on an LEO helps start making the case that it was a good shoot. It doesn't sound like that happened here.

I would have had the wounded guy cuffed and would have asked the first responding officer to transport him for me to the hospital to wait for the Marshals to come take custody of him to answer to the federal assault on an LEO charges he would have been toting.

lawman800
11-23-2011, 13:34
Would it be assault on a fleo if the assailant didn't know he was a fleo?

For us locals in CA, it doesn't count as battery on a peace officer if the assailant doesn't know we are cops. The perp has to know in fact, or should reasonably know we are cops and carrying out official duties, whether we are on or off duty. (see CA penal code 243(b) and 243(c)(2))

Mayhem like Me
11-23-2011, 13:43
If he was slashed in the forehead, then I'd say it's a good shoot.

You can see a scratch starting 3 inches above his right eye going across the forehead. looks to be a very shallow line..

series1811
11-23-2011, 19:18
Would it be assault on a fleo if the assailant didn't know he was a fleo?

For us locals in CA, it doesn't count as battery on a peace officer if the assailant doesn't know we are cops. The perp has to know in fact, or should reasonably know we are cops and carrying out official duties, whether we are on or off duty. (see CA penal code 243(b) and 243(c)(2))

Yes, if he was escorting people around that night as part of his duties. Then, it doesn't matter if they knew he was a fed leo or not.

lawman800
11-23-2011, 20:44
Not even reasonably should have known? So knowledge is not required at all but just as long as he is doing his job? So if a fleo is working, and gets into a fight with someone who has no idea and say... They fight over the last mcrib of the day while waiting in line, then the assailant is on the hook for assaulting a fleo?

Newcop761
11-23-2011, 20:59
Not even reasonably should have known? So knowledge is not required at all but just as long as he is doing his job? So if a fleo is working, and gets into a fight with someone who has no idea and say... They fight over the last mcrib of the day while waiting in line, then the assailant is on the hook for assaulting a fleo?

Yes. Here it is straight from the FLETC legal division textbook:

When a federal employee is assaulted while engaged in the performance of official duties, it is not necessary for the government to prove that the defendant knew that the person assaulted was a federal employee. Therefore, if an undercover officer is assaulted while performing undercover duties, the suspect may be charged under § 111 even though he was unaware that the person assaulted was a federal officer.

Defender77
11-24-2011, 02:44
http://www.hawaiinewsnow.com/story/16115276/911

lawman800
11-24-2011, 03:33
Of course, CA law has to be pretty much the opposite of Federal law.

Hack
11-24-2011, 09:37
Yes. Here it is straight from the FLETC legal division textbook:

It is what it is.

Hack
11-24-2011, 09:41
http://www.hawaiinewsnow.com/story/16115276/911

Yeah, now it is wait for trial time.

series1811
11-24-2011, 11:41
Not even reasonably should have known? So knowledge is not required at all but just as long as he is doing his job? So if a fleo is working, and gets into a fight with someone who has no idea and say... They fight over the last mcrib of the day while waiting in line, then the assailant is on the hook for assaulting a fleo?

The more common scenario is where our undercover agents are assaulted. In those cases the crooks surely don't know or they would have never showed up. They still get prosecuted for assault on leo.

Hack
11-24-2011, 11:55
The more common scenario is where our undercover agents are assaulted. In those cases the crooks surely don't know or they would have never showed up. They still get prosecuted for assault on leo.

We don't have as much undercover, usually only in the rare instance of WITSEC immediate transfer. But, it would definitely apply. Just pretty much any federal LEO on duty.

CJStudent
11-24-2011, 14:59
We don't have as much undercover, usually only in the rare instance of WITSEC immediate transfer. But, it would definitely apply. Just pretty much any federal LEO on duty.

Also if off-duty, if it's because of your duties (in our case, disgruntled ex-inmate or something, or someone that sees your uniform when you're in the gas station on the way in and decides they have a bone to pick with LE).

Hack
11-24-2011, 17:03
Also if off-duty, if it's because of your duties (in our case, disgruntled ex-inmate or something, or someone that sees your uniform when you're in the gas station on the way in and decides they have a bone to pick with LE).

True. Just hope your warden backs you. It is one reason why I carry liability insurance.

series1811
11-24-2011, 17:18
True. Just hope your warden backs you. It is one reason why I carry liability insurance.

I've known more than one guy that only still has his job because of liability insurance and the attorney they paid for.

Peace Frog
11-25-2011, 14:51
So is he DS or attached to DS?I'm thinking attached through one of the State Departments other agencies?
And also there is little to no information about the actual shooting.He very well could have fired in self defense.I tried calling my uncle to see if he knew if this agent was actually with DS...Waiting on a call back and if I hear something I'll post it.