45 Super? [Archive] - Glock Talk

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flyandscuba
11-18-2011, 07:40
Anyone using 45 Super in their G21, G30, or G36? Just wondering how the Glocks perform with it... If it works well, I might consider switching from 10mm Auto to 45 Super.

Glock30Eric
11-18-2011, 08:49
I have seen people saying it is doing very well with Glock. I have been considering about it. But first I need to build my experience with the reloading thing before I start working on 45 super.

ArmyDoc
11-27-2011, 12:29
Check on the Big Dawgs forum - there's a couple of threads there. Here's the longest: http://glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=197490

BOOSTED12A
12-01-2011, 11:28
hmm, this is interesting. i was gonna get a 20 after the new year but i may just get some super barss and a new spring/rod.

ArmyDoc
12-01-2011, 11:37
That's essentially what I decided to do. Several people have reported 45 super loads that exceed 10mm in power.

I'm going to start reloading 45 super brass at +P+ levels. Should provide excellent margin of safety and push 230 JHPs at ~1100 -1200 fps.

RWBlue
12-01-2011, 11:50
Yes, I have a G21 setup for 45Super.

What should be understood is there is 45Super and there is 45SUPER. When I started there was very little reloading data for the 45Super so I went off book and made my own. What I ended up with is 45SUPER. Or to put it a different way, I pushed the ends of envelope.

If you are just wanting 45Super or 45ACP++P then it can be done with a standard Glock. If you plan on pushing the ends of the envelope then heavy spring, guiderod, new barrel, comp or suppressor is needed. If you continue to push the ends, it will beat up your Glock.

I am not sure what more to tell you. Oh, wait a minute.
1. If you are not a reloader, the 45 Super is not for you.
2. If you want to load to 454 levels, you will not get there with the 45Super.
3. With the bullets I tested the extra power of the 45Super is not realized because the bullets are designed for 45ACP and 45LC. A 260gr JHP bullet needs to be designed for the correct velocity before a 45SUPER will be a good hunting round.

BOOSTED12A
12-01-2011, 12:09
That's essentially what I decided to do. Several people have reported 45 super loads that exceed 10mm in power.

I'm going to start reloading 45 super brass at +P+ levels. Should provide excellent margin of safety and push 230 JHPs at ~1100 -1200 fps.
im plannin on flat nose for hunting rnds at around those velosites, mabe a bit more.

ArmyDoc
12-01-2011, 13:33
I don't think you'll have any problem doing that.

The biggest problem is, as RWBlue said, there is little published reloading data. Hodgdon only lists up to 20,000 Cup. Not very helpfull when +P is 23,000 Cup, and I've been told Ace Custom who developed the round is loading at 27,000 Cup. There is no published maximum.

One thing that could help would be a 6 inch after market barrel - that would give slower powders a bit more time to act, which is supposed to help with heavier bullets.

It would be nice to have a reloading thread for 45 Super, similar to the threads on the 10mm Reloading forum.

BOOSTED12A
12-01-2011, 13:54
i have access to a chrono so after the holidays ill get some brass and the other stuff. the new barrel will be after ive experemented some.

ArmyDoc
12-01-2011, 17:32
That would be great! What powder/bullet combination do you think you will start with?

BOOSTED12A
12-02-2011, 06:10
probbaly 200grn flat nose FMJ. ive been loading with WSF so ill have to get different powder. ill post the results when i have some thing

RWBlue
12-02-2011, 10:45
That would be great! What powder/bullet combination do you think you will start with?

There is a good bit more data available online now than when I started. If you make a spreadsheet and add all the data you can find as well as the source, you can easily sort out the data that is not right.

Assuming you are doing the new barrel, compensator, and heavy spring. I would tell you can look at Rowland data also.

As always start a little low and work up. The limits with my setup is not going to get me a Kaboom, it will just beat my glock to death.

I don't have my load data with me, but from memory I think I had the best results from Power Pistol, AA#7 and Bluedot when I was pushing it hard.

As far as what bullet, that is a personal decision. I assume you are not loading for personal protection against people. (There is not much to gain over 45ACP+P) If you are loading for paper there are lots of options. I spent a lot of time working with Rainier PHP bullets in 185gr, 200gr and 230gr. They are cost effective for load development. The really light .451 bullets fly flatter. The 260gr Speer JHP bullets will feed, but will not open unless pushed VERY hard. The 300gr bullets are not recommended. I have some Hungarian 45ACP JHP. The bullets will not open at the factory speed. I always said I was going to pull some and load them to 45Super to see if they may be the ultimate 45Super JHP loads. I would also look at some of the bonded bullets because they should hold together better than the unbonded ones I was trying.

ArmyDoc
12-02-2011, 12:03
RWBlue,

I'm primarily interested in 230gr JHP at 1100 fps or so for deer, +/- hogs. This is about 10% faster than a factory loaded +p. Do you know of a JHP that will hold together at this velocity?

RWBlue
12-02-2011, 17:02
RWBlue,

I'm primarily interested in 230gr JHP at 1100 fps or so for deer, +/- hogs. This is about 10% faster than a factory loaded +p. Do you know of a JHP that will hold together at this velocity?

From what I remember.....
The best rounds were Rainier and Bonded Gold dots. The Rainier would become teardrops of lead and most of the lead would stay together. The Gold dot did a little better.

Gold Saber and other non-bonded rounds lost the jacket very quickly and then the lead continued through the gel like the Rainier.

In a totally different way....I really liked the Triton Quickshock. It dumped all its energy in the first 12 inches breaking the setup I had the gel sitting in. The bullet would break into 3 or 4 sections and head off in unknown directions sometimes exiting the gel. If I were to design an anti-personnel round this would be it. But they no longer make this bullet.

It is really too bad I lost most of these pictures. They were interesting.

RWBlue
12-02-2011, 17:14
Picture time
http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn50/rwblue01/gunstuff/ammo/BrassDSC_0001.jpg
From left to right you can see the bulge build. I was using a glock factory barrel, Star 45Super brass, and it wouldn't have take much to end up with a Kaboom. The KKM barrel is much better.

Bad pictures of the Triton ammo.
http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn50/rwblue01/gunstuff/ammo/img074.jpg

http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn50/rwblue01/gunstuff/ammo/img075.jpg

ArmyDoc
12-03-2011, 08:29
what were you loading that caused the case bulges?

RWBlue
12-03-2011, 09:46
what were you loading that caused the case bulges?

Use data at own risk.
260gr Speer, AA#7, Standard Glock barrel.
10grs appears safe. Beyond that it gets questionable very fast. Fast enough that I was using a RCBS digital scale loading one round at a time and I wouldn't recommend it with a standard Glock barrel.

BOOSTED12A
12-03-2011, 17:40
Use data at own risk.
260gr Speer, AA#7, Standard Glock barrel.
10grs appears safe. Beyond that it gets questionable very fast. Fast enough that I was using a RCBS digital scale loading one round at a time and I wouldn't recommend it with a standard Glock barrel.
what velosities were you getting with the 10g?

vaquero aleman
02-12-2012, 07:52
I would like to ask the "dumb question". 45 Super can be shot out of a 45 ACP barrel? I don't have to buy a special barrel to put in my G21? Can 45 Super be bought online? It sounds like the people here that are shooting 45 Super are reloading and not buying the ammo from Midway or DT, so I guess that means that I need to find a local gun shop that will reload for me? And, since I will be recieving an LWD 45LTH soon, is the LWD barrel any better than the Glock 45 ACP for shooting 45 Super?

RWBlue
02-12-2012, 12:07
what velosities were you getting with the 10g?

Sorry, missed this post.
I don't have that information with me. It is in a container with my reloading stuff several thousand miles away.

RWBlue
02-12-2012, 12:24
I would like to ask the "dumb question". 45 Super can be shot out of a 45 ACP barrel? I don't have to buy a special barrel to put in my G21? Can 45 Super be bought online? It sounds like the people here that are shooting 45 Super are reloading and not buying the ammo from Midway or DT, so I guess that means that I need to find a local gun shop that will reload for me? And, since I will be recieving an LWD 45LTH soon, is the LWD barrel any better than the Glock 45 ACP for shooting 45 Super?

IMHO, If you are shooting 45Super out of a standard Glock21 barrel, you are pushing your luck.

I don't know about the LWD barrel. For shooting 45Super it is all about support. If you look at the photo I posted above, I was shooting the 45Super in an unsupported barrel and I got bulge.

IMHO, If you are going to push the 45Super as hard as possible, you need a compensator.

I believe Buffalo Bore is loading the 45Super so you don't have to find a local person who may or may not be competent to load your ammo, but.......

IMHO,
1. If you want to shoot hot and heavy in a Glock.
2. If you don't reload
3. If you don't want to beat your gun into the ground
4. If you don't want a comp.
Get a G20. Most people are happy with the 10mm.

The G21 with special barrel with comp where you have spent a good bit of time slowly working up loads selecting the correct bullet is the most powerful Glock out there.

vaquero aleman
02-13-2012, 18:11
This is the beginning of my new-to-me Zombie Gun! I plan on starting off with 45 Super and then we will see what happens. At the moment, the only thing mod about her is the 6.61" LWD-21L45TH, a 22# Wolff recoil spring/guide rod and Wilson Combat recoil buffer. She came with Trijicon novac rear and standard front night sights. Now that I'm 49 and can't focus on the sights anymore, I think I'll be looking for some laser action. Isn't that just life! I trade for a G21, luck up and get an OD with decent sights and I can't see the bamn things anymore!

http://i1163.photobucket.com/albums/q547/vaqueroaleman/003-1.jpg

http://i1163.photobucket.com/albums/q547/vaqueroaleman/Guns%20and%20Ammo/3-1.jpg

http://i1163.photobucket.com/albums/q547/vaqueroaleman/Guns%20and%20Ammo/11-1.jpg

Got an LWD compensator ordered, from glockparts.com LWD was out of stock. This was one of the few(very few) times that in-my-face advertising was a help. I found glockparts.com at the bottom of these posts.

vaquero aleman
02-26-2012, 10:25
Since I enjoy asking these kinds of questions: Has anybody here chronographed Double Tap 45 ACP? I shot some DT 185gn Nosler and Winchester 230gn slowball out of my 6.61" LWD w/22# spring and the DT caused failure to feeds while the Winchester did not, leaving me, as usual, dazed and confused.

http://i1163.photobucket.com/albums/q547/vaqueroaleman/Guns%20and%20Ammo/31.jpg

http://i1163.photobucket.com/albums/q547/vaqueroaleman/Guns%20and%20Ammo/30-1.jpg
Dunno if this is clear enough or not, but does this show enough to say wether or not the LWD has the proper support?

SDGlock23
02-26-2012, 13:38
Yes your LW barrel has lots better support. I have a KKM barrel and 500pcs of Starline 45 Super brass, but haven't worked anything up yet.

vaquero aleman
02-29-2012, 10:38
All I need now is ammo!

http://i1163.photobucket.com/albums/q547/vaqueroaleman/Guns%20and%20Ammo/G5-2.jpg

http://i1163.photobucket.com/albums/q547/vaqueroaleman/Guns%20and%20Ammo/G6-2.jpg

http://i1163.photobucket.com/albums/q547/vaqueroaleman/Guns%20and%20Ammo/G2-1.jpg


http://i1163.photobucket.com/albums/q547/vaqueroaleman/Guns%20and%20Ammo/G8-1.jpg

***I have put this piece together with the knowledge that I have gained from reading the posts here on GlockTalk. Thanks everybody. All of you were a great help!

Glock30Eric
02-29-2012, 11:50
Awesome keep us updated!


Outdoor Hub mobile, the outdoor information engine

Angry Fist
03-02-2012, 18:22
All I need now is ammo!

http://i1163.photobucket.com/albums/q547/vaqueroaleman/Guns%20and%20Ammo/G5-2.jpg

http://i1163.photobucket.com/albums/q547/vaqueroaleman/Guns%20and%20Ammo/G6-2.jpg

http://i1163.photobucket.com/albums/q547/vaqueroaleman/Guns%20and%20Ammo/G2-1.jpg


http://i1163.photobucket.com/albums/q547/vaqueroaleman/Guns%20and%20Ammo/G8-1.jpg

***I have put this piece together with the knowledge that I have gained from reading the posts here on GlockTalk. Thanks everybody. All of you were a great help!
Now THAT is badass.... :thumbsup:

vaquero aleman
03-02-2012, 18:59
Thanks! I think I might actually keep this one! Ordered me a 24# spring just in case the 22# don't get it done.

vaquero aleman
03-06-2012, 11:04
I just got back from the local shooting spot and I can say that things were not as I expected. I shot Buffalo Bore 45 Super 185gr JHP through the 6.61" and comp. I had to use my shooting discipline to get shots on target because it was quite snappy. As I do not have a chrony I have to assume that the velocities were what they were supposed to be. I shot about 14 rounds through the barrel/comp without any failures, then I removed the comp to guage the difference and started having failures. In dealing with the FTF's I could not focus on the difference between having or not having the comp. However, when I re-installed the comp, the failures stopped. And then I switched to the Glock barrel and shot some more, without failures, and I was very relieved to see that case bulging was minimal, so now I feel relatively safe having my G21 loaded with 45 Super. Will post pics later.

PghJim
03-06-2012, 11:44
Without the comp, you may need a stiffer recoil spring. What type of FTF were you having?

vaquero aleman
03-06-2012, 13:17
I would have to say the cartridges were taking a nose dive and failed to get pushed into the chamber. But then, it also seemed like the slide was just not getting pushed back far enough. I have a 22# Wolff recoil spring. There may be something to changing out the magazine spring for a stronger one like some folks have recommended.

Although, there was very minor bulging on the web area of the case and there is a strange indentation, which at first I thought was a crack, but it does not show on the inside of the case.

http://i1163.photobucket.com/albums/q547/vaqueroaleman/Guns%20and%20Ammo/51-1.jpg

http://i1163.photobucket.com/albums/q547/vaqueroaleman/Guns%20and%20Ammo/52-1.jpg
Reminds me of getting a finger jamb from trying to catch a football.
.
.
.

PghJim
03-06-2012, 14:20
I would have to say the cartridges were taking a nose dive and failed to get pushed into the chamber. I have a 22# Wolff spring. There may be something to changing out the magazine spring for a stronger one like some folks have recommended.

Although there was very minor bulging on the web area of the case there is a strange indentation, which at first I thought was a crack, but it does not show on the inside of the case.

http://i1163.photobucket.com/albums/q547/vaqueroaleman/Guns%20and%20Ammo/51-1.jpg

http://i1163.photobucket.com/albums/q547/vaqueroaleman/Guns%20and%20Ammo/52-1.jpg
Reminds me of getting a finger jamb from trying to catch a football.
.
.
.

That is interesting. Is it more a scratch or cut than a dent. It is in the same place. Check the chamber for a ridge. Other than that I would have to say it is done during ejection. Don't know.

vaquero aleman
03-06-2012, 14:36
I think that it is being caused by the propellant pushing the brass into itself, like when a buildings supports fail because of overloading. I am pretty sure it only happened when I had the factory barrel in. Not very many are like that and I only shot about one mag through the factory barrel. I believe that I am going to buy the Jarvis barrel. I read a really technical sounding report, way over my head, that stated the 4140 chrome moly steel used by Jarvis is a superior steel in every way for a gun barrel. I found the report when I was googeling gun barrel steel. Actually it was 416 stainless vs 4140.

RWBlue
03-06-2012, 14:43
That is interesting. Is it more a scratch or cut than a dent. It is in the same place. Check the chamber for a ridge. Other than that I would have to say it is done during ejection. Don't know.

Mark a case with permanent marker. See if this is on the bottom or top or.....?

vaquero aleman
03-06-2012, 14:44
I forgot to mention that the Wilson Combat recoil buffer after only around 100 rounds has started to split in two places. They said it would be good for about 1000 rounds.

http://i1163.photobucket.com/albums/q547/vaqueroaleman/Guns%20and%20Ammo/63.jpg

vaquero aleman
03-06-2012, 14:45
Mark a case with permanent marker. See if this is on the bottom or top or.....?

The ridge is higher on the bottom side of the case. It kinda seems like the upper portion of the case is being pushed into the lower portion of the case where there is no chamber support.

RWBlue
03-06-2012, 15:05
The ridge is higher on the bottom side of the case. It kinda seems like the upper portion of the case is being pushed into the lower portion of the case where there is no chamber support.

Do you have a way of checking the length of the unfired brass?
If it is too long, it shouldn't fit the chamber and shouldn't fire, but....?

I would also suggest measuring the unfired brass in comparison to fired brass.

I would also suggest shooting a standard 45ACP load to compare how the this particular brass expands with increased pressure.

BTW, I don't know what is going on, I am hoping that by measuring the brass, I will get an idea.

vaquero aleman
03-06-2012, 15:37
Unfortunately I do not have an outside micrometer. But I can say that it is new Starline 45 Super brass loaded by Buffalo Bore. I just ran another magazine through the Lone Wolf barrel and no problems, all smooth. So I am going to have to assume that the lack of support from the Glock factory barrel is causing the case to crumple just enough to leave a funny line.

http://i1163.photobucket.com/albums/q547/vaqueroaleman/Guns%20and%20Ammo/56-2.jpg

And there is an ever so slight bulge just under each line or "indentation", but not above the line.

I guess that we can call the unsupported area of the case the "subduction zone".

vaquero aleman
03-07-2012, 09:51
I sent an email to Underwood Ammo Co. and this was the reply:

Ronald,

That is definitely a round we will be releasing. We are currently looking
into test firearms for the 45 Super. May I ask what you use and if you know
of any drop in conversions for either a Glock or a 1911?

Thanks!
Kevin

So, things are definately moving in a positive direction for 45 Super!

BOOSTED12A
03-07-2012, 16:37
nice!

vaquero aleman
03-08-2012, 18:54
deleted.

Arc Angel
03-31-2012, 16:49
I forgot to mention that the Wilson Combat recoil buffer after only around 100 rounds has started to split in two places. They said it would be good for about 1000 rounds.

http://i1163.photobucket.com/albums/q547/vaqueroaleman/Guns%20and%20Ammo/63.jpg

They lied! (I threw all of mine away. These things don't belong in a Glock.)

vaquero aleman
04-01-2012, 08:44
They lied! (I threw all of mine away. These things don't belong in a Glock.)

Yeh, especially at $10 a piece!

vaquero aleman
04-04-2012, 05:57
I realized that my long barrel w/comp had very quickly become a drawer ornament so I put my Dremel to work and now I have a very nice 45 Super barrel for my EDC.

http://i1163.photobucket.com/albums/q547/vaqueroaleman/Guns%20n%20Ammo%202/DSCN0354.jpg
From 6.61" to 5.25" with the flick of a switch.

21Glock
04-08-2012, 14:11
Hi guys, HAPPY EASTER!
Just happened on this thread. I have shooting and working with the .45 SUPER in my 21SF for about a year. Here is my set up on my gun. I take no responsibility for your gun.
Lone Wolf 6" un-ported barrel,new Starline .45 Super brass. SS guide rod, un-cap. ISMI 22lb. recoil spring.
230gr. Rainier JHP. slugs 1100-1200+FPS with various loads. Fun round. Packs a wallop!

vaquero aleman
05-10-2012, 11:25
Well, I finally went "all in" and converted my G21 to 460 Rowland. But I seem to be having the same feeding issue, that I did with 45 Super, so I ordered an 11 coil magazine spring. If the extra power mag spring don't help then I guess I'll spend the money and get the $95 Sprinco Cor Bon unit.

http://i1163.photobucket.com/albums/q547/vaqueroaleman/45%20Super/DSCN0432-1.jpg

reflex264
05-11-2012, 16:41
I have my super feeding just fine. Extra power mag spring and a Storm Lake barrel. I am running a 24# spring on a SS rod. reflex264

vaquero aleman
05-12-2012, 09:51
I decided to just spend the money and get the Sprinco unit. $95(includes p&h).

http://i1163.photobucket.com/albums/q547/vaqueroaleman/460%20ROWLAND/sprdillon.gif

Lone Wolf Distributors seems to be behind the 8 ball right now with thier shipping. I ordered the mag "spring" three days ago and it hasn't left thier warehouse yet. I ordered the Sprinco yesterday and will have it on Tuesday. I guess we just have to take it the way it's dished out and then ask for seconds.

vaquero aleman
05-12-2012, 09:58
I have my super feeding just fine. Extra power mag spring and a Storm Lake barrel. I am running a 24# spring on a SS rod. reflex264

You got the 6" barrel or stock length? You "rollin your own" or using store bought ammo?

reflex264
05-12-2012, 11:04
6" barrel. Using Buffalo Bore and rolling my own. Love it. reflex264

WeeWilly
05-12-2012, 14:43
I too have a 6" KKM barrel, 22# ISMI spring and playing with some .45 Super with my G21SF. I have been loading 230gr PD FMJ's and 230gr XTP's. Feed has been perfect with both the RN and the JHP's using stock 13RD and 10RD Glock mags.

This KKM barrel will not reliably feed my standard .45ACP 200gr LSWC's target loads that all my 1911's and stock Glock 21 barrels will do.

vaquero aleman
05-12-2012, 16:52
my 21 works great when everything is stock.

Angry Fist
05-12-2012, 18:50
Well, I finally went "all in" and converted my G21 to 460 Rowland. But I seem to be having the same feeding issue, that I did with 45 Super, so I ordered an 11 coil magazine spring. If the extra power mag spring don't help then I guess I'll spend the money and get the $95 Sprinco Cor Bon unit.

http://i1163.photobucket.com/albums/q547/vaqueroaleman/45%20Super/DSCN0432-1.jpg
That is badass! :thumbsup: .460 is an asskicker fo' sho'!

vaquero aleman
05-23-2012, 13:12
Better late than never, I guess.

http://i1163.photobucket.com/albums/q547/vaqueroaleman/45%20Super/DSCN0532-1.jpg

Shaker223
05-30-2012, 12:48
Ok, here goes. I started some 45 super load work using 45 +P Starline brass. I also purchased some 45 Super Starline brass as well. I cut some of each in half and felt the 45 +P brass provided more support.

Gun details: G21, Lone Wolf aftermarket threaded barrel, Wolf 24lb recoil spring. Stock otherwise.

The starting data used was lifted from this site:cool: I used Hornady 185XTP, AA#7, Wolf primer.

I'm at work and don't have the middle powder measurements however the first 5 shot string (left in picture) started at 13.0 grains and the 7th and final string (right in pic) finished at 15.5 grains.

My chrony was acting up all day and obtained some limited data. Shot string #5 (left to right in the box) was in the 1340fps range if memory serves correctly. Chrony messed up on 6&7 so I will have to redo those.

The gun functioned perfectly. Ejected cases went 5-6 feet to the right and slightly back. Recoil (in my opinion) was moderate-heavy.

I'm not seeing any smiles or any other indicators that would say to stop at this point. I've micrometered all of the cases the entire length of their bodies and I'm not finding any differences from string #1 to string #7 that would make me say "whoe nellie".

Please let me know your thoughts and what you would consider as a case head measurement that might make you take a second look. Question: Is this measurement vs a virgin unfired case or vs a starting load fired case?

Thanks for any input.

dougader
05-31-2012, 00:00
I think the ported or comped barrels help with the feeding issues. I think it helps to slow down your slide speed and lessens the battering a gun takes from the higher pressures of the 45 Super. I have a G21sf with a LWD 6 inch, 4-port barrel and a 22# recoil spring on a stainless guide rod. My rounds feed fine.

I don't have my notes in front of me, but as I recall I have loaded up 200 grain Speer "flying ashtrays" to around 1300 fps (these come apart like grenades at anything much over 1000 fps), 230 grain zero fmj's to right at 1200 fps, and the 265 grain WFNGC Beartooth Bullets hardcast slug to 1177 fps. You read that right. A hardcast 265 @ 1177 fps for 815 ft. lbs. of muzzle energy.

Now, my goal was to simply push a 255 - 265 grain hardcast slug to 900 fps; a ballistic duplicate of the old 45 Colt load from the 19th century. If you read about John Linebaugh's work with the 45 Colt, you'll see a 260 grain hardcast slug will penetrate antelope and mule deer from stem to stern. All I really need here in Oregon, unless I want to hunt elk or black bear with the 45 Super.

I worked up slowly to get to 1177 fps, and if I thought I really needed it again I'd do it. But I have backed down to my 1033 fps load as a more safe and sane use of my 45 Super set-up.

I still have a keg of the old Hercules Blue Dot, and it worked really well in the 45 Super for me. I haven't even tried other powders yet. Always use standard large pistol primers with Blue Dot. IME, Blue Dot can spike in pressure a lot faster when you're using magnum primers.

I am interested to hear how the G21 holds up to 460 Rowland.

reflex264
06-01-2012, 16:24
I think the ported or comped barrels help with the feeding issues. I think it helps to slow down your slide speed and lessens the battering a gun takes from the higher pressures of the 45 Super. I have a G21sf with a LWD 6 inch, 4-port barrel and a 22# recoil spring on a stainless guide rod. My rounds feed fine.

I don't have my notes in front of me, but as I recall I have loaded up 200 grain Speer "flying ashtrays" to around 1300 fps (these come apart like grenades at anything much over 1000 fps), 230 grain zero fmj's to right at 1200 fps, and the 265 grain WFNGC Beartooth Bullets hardcast slug to 1177 fps. You read that right. A hardcast 265 @ 1177 fps for 815 ft. lbs. of muzzle energy.

Now, my goal was to simply push a 255 - 265 grain hardcast slug to 900 fps; a ballistic duplicate of the old 45 Colt load from the 19th century. If you read about John Linebaugh's work with the 45 Colt, you'll see a 260 grain hardcast slug will penetrate antelope and mule deer from stem to stern. All I really need here in Oregon, unless I want to hunt elk or black bear with the 45 Super.

I worked up slowly to get to 1177 fps, and if I thought I really needed it again I'd do it. But I have backed down to my 1033 fps load as a more safe and sane use of my 45 Super set-up.

I still have a keg of the old Hercules Blue Dot, and it worked really well in the 45 Super for me. I haven't even tried other powders yet. Always use standard large pistol primers with Blue Dot. IME, Blue Dot can spike in pressure a lot faster when you're using magnum primers.

I am interested to hear how the G21 holds up to 460 Rowland.


What is you overall length with the 265? reflex264

vaquero aleman
06-06-2012, 12:29
Funny how I find myself back here. I believe that I will most likely be returning to the land of 45 Super. I am waiting, very anxiously, for Underwood Ammo to get some of thier new 45 Super in stock. I will be purchasing at least two boxes of his 230gr @ 1100fps to see how my 21 likes it.

Since I already have, in my mind at least, my 21 set up for 460 Rowland I think that it will probably shoot this 45 Super very well. Because, it did not like the Rowland at all! But then, I don't have a compensator to calm it down, just the Sprinco with the sub spring changed out for the Rowland and a 24# recoil spring. And, because I am a wild and crazy guy, I will be keeping my 21 loaded with the 460 Rowland 230gr @ 1300fps.

http://i1163.photobucket.com/albums/q547/vaqueroaleman/460%20ROWLAND/DSCN0559-4.jpg

Shaker223
06-06-2012, 13:05
Sounds Cool V.A.!

Does anyone make a recoil spring heavier than 24lbs?

vaquero aleman
06-06-2012, 15:12
Sounds Cool V.A.!

Does anyone make a recoil spring heavier than 24lbs?

Ace Custom 45s shows on thier web site that they use a 25#. But I had no luck finding this 25# recoil spring. I guess it's a ghost spring.

I have searched Wolff, Sprinco, ISMI and probably a couple others but the highest they go is 24#. I have actually considered taking two springs, cutting them down a little and combining them to see how that worked, but I haven't ordered the extra springs yet. I think it has something to do with not haveing the money any more.

Shaker223
06-06-2012, 20:21
OK Thanks. You have covered all of the bases like me only I was unaware of the Ace spring.

WeeWilly
06-07-2012, 13:50
Funny how I find myself back here. I believe that I will most likely be returning to the land of 45 Super. I am waiting, very anxiously, for Underwood Ammo to get some of thier new 45 Super in stock. I will be purchasing at least two boxes of his 230gr @ 1100fps to see how my 21 likes it...

They had some in stock yesterday.

PS - I am going to try a 24lb ISMI spring I got from Glockmeister the other day, have been using a 22lb version of the same up till now, just a little frame battering, not bad.

vaquero aleman
06-07-2012, 16:55
I think the ported or comped barrels help with the feeding issues. I think it helps to slow down your slide speed and lessens the battering a gun takes from the higher pressures of the 45 Super. I have a G21sf with a LWD 6 inch, 4-port barrel and a 22# recoil spring on a stainless guide rod. My rounds feed fine.

I don't have my notes in front of me, but as I recall I have loaded up 200 grain Speer "flying ashtrays" to around 1300 fps (these come apart like grenades at anything much over 1000 fps), 230 grain zero fmj's to right at 1200 fps, and the 265 grain WFNGC Beartooth Bullets hardcast slug to 1177 fps. You read that right. A hardcast 265 @ 1177 fps for 815 ft. lbs. of muzzle energy.

Now, my goal was to simply push a 255 - 265 grain hardcast slug to 900 fps; a ballistic duplicate of the old 45 Colt load from the 19th century. If you read about John Linebaugh's work with the 45 Colt, you'll see a 260 grain hardcast slug will penetrate antelope and mule deer from stem to stern. All I really need here in Oregon, unless I want to hunt elk or black bear with the 45 Super.

I worked up slowly to get to 1177 fps, and if I thought I really needed it again I'd do it. But I have backed down to my 1033 fps load as a more safe and sane use of my 45 Super set-up.

I still have a keg of the old Hercules Blue Dot, and it worked really well in the 45 Super for me. I haven't even tried other powders yet. Always use standard large pistol primers with Blue Dot. IME, Blue Dot can spike in pressure a lot faster when you're using magnum primers.

I am interested to hear how the G21 holds up to 460 Rowland.

I can say this; What I have learned from converting my 21 to fire 460 Rowland is that it is a very powerful cartridge. I decided to skip the compensator, in favor of a more compact handgun, and I have learned that though the 21 seems to be able to handle it, I'm not sure that I can.

I describe my 460 Rowland experience a little more in detail here:

http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1409265

woodsloafer
06-07-2012, 22:52
Dougader,

Appreciate your load data and pictures of the WFNGC bullet... I am going to try that bullet out.

The Beartooth 265 grain WFNGC hardcast slug ...What dia. did you get... .451?

Thanks,

Jerry

woodsloafer
06-07-2012, 22:54
OOps!

vaquero aleman
06-14-2012, 13:12
Finally got some Underwood 45 Super on the way. 230gr Gold Dots @ 1100fps. I will see how my Sprinco likes that stuff. I just hope that my 21 doesn't get upset with me for switching up on it. I was feeding it 230gr @ 1300fps. I'm sure the frame will enjoy a little break from the pounding.

Hmm... 45Super 230gr @ 1100fps, ME of 618, PF of 253, dia. of .451, 12 rounds on hand(with double sprung magazine). What more can you ask for?
http://i1163.photobucket.com/albums/q547/vaqueroaleman/460%20ROWLAND/DSCN0553.jpg

vaquero aleman
06-21-2012, 17:30
http://i1163.photobucket.com/albums/q547/vaqueroaleman/460%20ROWLAND/DSCN0515-1.jpg

I shot a box and a half of the Underwood 45Super 230gr Gold Dots, through my .460 barrel. And I was using my double sprung mags. The 1100fps ran like clockwork out of my 21. I believe that the slide stop never even touched the frame during the recoil. So the Sprinco, set up for .460 Rowland, couldn't stop the frame contact when shooting 230gr @ 1300fps but it worked perfectly when shooting the 230gr @ 1100fps. Who woulda thunk it? I think that I am going to have another conversation with Sprinco about this.

Any how. I believe that I have finally found a 45 caliber round that I can be satisfied with; The Underwood Ammo 230gr @ 1100fps Gold Dot. Shooting this ammo reminded me a great deal of shooting my old G20SF, really powerful but not too powerful and I even noticed a little flame coming out of the barrel. So now I really want to get some video of this ammo. Guess I'll have to order some more bullets.

WeeWilly
06-21-2012, 17:42
I shot some of the Underwood 230gr GD the other day out of my stock G21SF (with the exception of a 24lb ISMI RSA). The recoil seemed a little more jarring than my G20SF using a 22lb spring shooting 180gr XTP at 1295fps. I attributed the heavier recoil feel to the 24lb spring.

I got no frame battering at all with the 24lb spring. Feed was flawless. I am going to try the 22lb spring out of my G20SF to see if felt recoil will be a little more sedate. Cases were landing pretty close with the 24.

I really like this ammo. Definitely will be my new SD load for my 21/30's.

SDGlock23
07-01-2012, 14:09
Loaded up some .45 Super for the first time today. Used:
New Starline brass
9grs Power Pistol
230gr FMJ seated to 1.240"
CCI LP.

Only ran 5, it's terribly hot here, right around 100 degrees. Shooting Chrony F1 @ 10'.
Ran through Glock 21sf np3 w/4.6" KKM barrel and captured 22lb recoil spring. Recoil was there, but not brutal. Speeds were:
1095
1096
1092
1084
1078
Avg= 1089 fps/ 606 ft-lbs

Brass looked good, I feel there is some more room to play here.

SDGlock23
07-01-2012, 19:24
Little update, I loaded up a few more and to the backyard I went. G21sf w/KKM 4.6" bbl and 22lb spring.

230gr XTP 9.5gr Power Pistol, 1.230" (1.240" wouldn't feed in my KKM bbl), CCI LP, Starline brass. 5 shot average was 1135 fps packing 658 ft-lbs energy. Liking the 45 Super more and more! Brass looked good, I'm sure one could go a little higher still...slowly. Maybe 9.7gr next.

Also for kicks I wanted to give Longshot a try. I almost started at 10grs which is the minimum charge for 460 Rowland...but I prefer to play it safe. I only shot 3 of each, but here it is, this time 230gr FMJ @ 1.240" CCI LP Starline virgin brass.

8.5gr Longshot avg= 1025 fps

9gr Longshot avg= 1068 fps

The online data Hodgdon shows for the .45 Super is a joke, not even .45 ACP +P level. Brass looked okay and could more than likely go higher, but that's all for today.

SDGlock23
07-01-2012, 19:27
This might be interesting for some:

http://www.handloads.com/articles/default.asp?id=41

NoJoy
07-02-2012, 00:34
This might be interesting for some:

http://www.handloads.com/articles/default.asp?id=41

Great data! It's great that you can shoot 45 Super through the Blackhawk convertable-makes it even more versatel. And once you get the cylinders modded right, being able to shoot the 460 Rowland is an added bonus.

WeeWilly
07-02-2012, 09:15
Man, it has to be nice to be able to shoot through your chrony in your backyard. I could likely do that once.

You are seeing a little better velocities with Longshot that I got. At 9.5 are you seeing any extractor rash or flattened primers?

Thanks for the link for the Blackhawk convertible information. I think, at least in the case of my G21SF in its nearly stock configuration (only an RSA swap), the pressure limits may be more about timing than absolute pressure limits. To my mind, there is no reason to believe that if my Glock didn't have to unlock, eject and reload it likely could withstand 460 S&W pressures.

SDGlock23
07-03-2012, 08:53
Living out in the country does have it's advantages :)

Yeah I am seeing a little bit of scarring of the brass via the extractor, nothing major but there's a little bit of bite showing. Primers did not flatten out with the 9gr Longshot or 9.5gr PP load however.

WeeWilly
07-03-2012, 10:39
Living out in the country does have it's advantages :)

Yeah I am seeing a little bit of scarring of the brass via the extractor, nothing major but there's a little bit of bite showing. Primers did not flatten out with the 9gr Longshot or 9.5gr PP load however.

Gotta love those CCI primers.

At right around 1100fps with both BD and LS I start getting some extractor rash (and flattened primers, but I am using Winchester which are softer, I think if I were using Federal's they would be flatter than a pancake).

The extractor rash is not bad enough to cause problems getting it into a shellplate when reloading.

I saw your post on the KKM barrel. My KKM barrel does have a little more support under the ramp, but I think the chamber is very similar to my stock barrel, maybe a slight bit tighter, but still a lot of wiggle when I drop a round in and move it around with my finger.

I am going to pick up some CCI 350's this afternoon and give them a try.

highxj
07-03-2012, 22:18
I have been testing the Hunter's Supply 275 gr. cast FN bullet, and it's a dandy and my favorite thumper 45 Super bullet.

I'm shooting an XDm 5.25 (sorry), but I've run them up to 1060 fps. with Longshot and nearly that with Power Pistol.

I just sent some to an industry friend for pressure testing. I will post the results here if anyone is interested.

Dan

WeeWilly
07-03-2012, 22:38
I have been testing the Hunter's Supply 275 gr. cast FN bullet, and it's a dandy and my favorite thumper 45 Super bullet.

I'm shooting an XDm 5.25 (sorry), but I've run them up to 1060 fps. with Longshot and nearly that with Power Pistol.

I just sent some to an industry friend for pressure testing. I will post the results here if anyone is interested.

Dan

Definitely interested.

SickDick
07-04-2012, 14:52
I built a 21 SF for .45 Super and I am having some problems.

The gun;
Glock 21 SF
5.75" Lone Wolf Barrel
Wolff 24# spring and Guide Rod
Recoil Buffer

The problem is it won't cycle the next round, sometimes it jams with the round still in the magazine but the bullet sticking up to catch the slide. And sometimes it doesn't feed at all, I have to manualy jack one in each time.

Chrony data;

185 gr XTP - 1373 FPS @ 3 ft.
230 gr XTP - 1213 FPS @ 3 ft.

Any help would be much apprieciated, I REALLY want this caliber to work, It is the ULTIMATE woods carry gun if I can make it reliable.

WeeWilly
07-04-2012, 15:14
I built a 21 SF for .45 Super and I am having some problems.

The gun;
Glock 21 SF
5.75" Lone Wolf Barrel
Wolff 24# spring and Guide Rod
Recoil Buffer

The problem is it won't cycle the next round, sometimes it jams with the round still in the magazine but the bullet sticking up to catch the slide. And sometimes it doesn't feed at all, I have to manualy jack one in each time.

Chrony data;

185 gr XTP - 1373 FPS @ 3 ft.
230 gr XTP - 1213 FPS @ 3 ft.

Any help would be much apprieciated, I REALLY want this caliber to work, It is the ULTIMATE woods carry gun if I can make it reliable.

Hot stuff.

It sounds like your slide is out running the magazine. You might give one of those heavier wolff magazine springs a try. Getting some additional weight in the slide assembly might help as well. I am not very fond of comps, so when I have to cross this bridge some day, I am going to try a stick on wheel weight as a test.

Also, I had no luck at all with a buff, in .45 Super or with my G20SF.

SickDick
07-04-2012, 16:37
Thanks,
I think I will get the extra power mag springs and toss the shock buff and see what happens.

NoJoy
07-04-2012, 16:53
I have been testing the Hunter's Supply 275 gr. cast FN bullet, and it's a dandy and my favorite thumper 45 Super bullet.

I'm shooting an XDm 5.25 (sorry), but I've run them up to 1060 fps. with Longshot and nearly that with Power Pistol.

I just sent some to an industry friend for pressure testing. I will post the results here if anyone is interested.

Dan

How did you set up your XDm 5.25 to shoot the Super? Are you using the stock spring or other? Apparently there is a 460 conversion for this gun using a ported barrel and stock recoil spring.

highxj
07-04-2012, 17:20
How did you set up your XDm 5.25 to shoot the Super? Are you using the stock spring or other? Apparently there is a 460 conversion for this gun using a ported barrel and stock recoil spring.

The only thing I've done is switch to a 22 lb. recoil spring and heavier mag springs.

I personally believe people take the recoil spring thing way too far. Super heavy recoil springs cause more problems than they are attempting to solve, and I honestly don't think they slow down barrel unlocking enough to help much anyway.

NoJoy
07-04-2012, 18:56
Ok thanks. Did you get the heavier mag springs from Wolff gun springs? Is the XD barrel fully supported? So this set up you have functions 100% with the Super ammo?

highxj
07-04-2012, 20:45
Ok thanks. Did you get the heavier mag springs from Wolff gun springs? Is the XD barrel fully supported? So this set up you have functions 100% with the Super ammo?

PM sent to avoid wrecking this Glock thread :cool:

reflex264
07-11-2012, 18:01
Thanks,
I think I will get the extra power mag springs and toss the shock buff and see what happens.

I had to install the extra power magazine spring in my 21sf and it cured the problem. It cycles like a appliance. reflex264

highxj
07-20-2012, 16:34
As I posted earlier, I had an opportunity to have a few loads pressure tested by a friend in the industry. This was a limited opportunity and I only sent 3 loads for testing in their pressure barrel. These were the top three loads I'd previously fired in my XDm 5.25. All used new Starline 45 Super brass and Fed 150 primers.

230 gr. LFN, Montana Bullet Works, 1.230" OAL
9.3 gr. Power Pistol, 1155 fps, 33,000 psi avg.

275 gr. Hunter's Supply cast, 1.240" OAL
8.3 gr. Power Pistol, 1035 fps, 37,000 psi avg.
8.7 gr. Longshot, 1063 fps, 40,000 psi avg.

These velocities are very close to what I obtained in my XDm so it's pretty safe to assume pressures are close to what was experienced in my chamber given that the pressure test barrel was 5".

I wish I could have sent a larger assortment of loads but we can extrapolate some data from this. I had hoped that the slightly slower Longshot might have given a bit higher velocities without a pressure penalty but that appears to not be the case, at least with this bullet.

Dan

CanyonMan
07-28-2012, 22:14
Little update, I loaded up a few more and to the backyard I went. G21sf w/KKM 4.6" bbl and 22lb spring.

230gr XTP 9.5gr Power Pistol, 1.230" (1.240" wouldn't feed in my KKM bbl), CCI LP, Starline brass. 5 shot average was 1135 fps packing 658 ft-lbs energy. Liking the 45 Super more and more! Brass looked good, I'm sure one could go a little higher still...slowly. Maybe 9.7gr next.

Also for kicks I wanted to give Longshot a try. I almost started at 10grs which is the minimum charge for 460 Rowland...but I prefer to play it safe. I only shot 3 of each, but here it is, this time 230gr FMJ @ 1.240" CCI LP Starline virgin brass.

8.5gr Longshot avg= 1025 fps

9gr Longshot avg= 1068 fps

The online data Hodgdon shows for the .45 Super is a joke, not even .45 ACP +P level. Brass looked okay and could more than likely go higher, but that's all for today.




Brother, these figures are good to know: I am about to purchace "another" G21 (as I sold mine some time back) and set up for the 45super.

To give you guys an idea here where you can take this...

In MY "G36" stock all the way little 45acp, I load WW/Starline plain 45acp brass, with a 230gr XTP, and 7.7grs of Power Pistol, and out of this little tube I am getting 907fps ! :wow:

Accuracy is like 100 rounds at even out to 35yds or so making a tennis ball size hole. It get plumb boring. haha.

Just saying all this to say that out of the 3.78" tube in a G36 with 7.7grs PP @ 907fps, the G21 with about 9.2/9.4grs PP in the AM barrel and 24# spring and good 45 super brasss should be a real sweet 45 ! ;)

Thanks for the test data and reprt here SDGlock23. If you find some other sweet loads PM me and load me up bro. ;)




Bless ya !






CM

SDGlock23
07-30-2012, 10:59
Good to hear from you brother, and yes I most certainly will let you know any new data I get for the .45 Super. I haven't loaded up in any .45 Super recently, but your post brought to mind that a few days ago I tested some regular .45 ACP using my trusty ole Glock 30sf. Similar to your numbers, with 7.7gr of Power Pistol I averaged 883 fps with a 230gr JHP loaded to 1.24" out of the 3.78" bbl...which isn't bad! The listed max is 8.1gr, although I haven't tried that... yet!

I think I will keep the 30sf stock since it still delivers good numbers, and stick to the G21sf as my .45 Super outfit. Good to hear you're getting one, they shoot so nicely, very easy to shoot and the .45 Super isn't bad at all, about like 10mm.

Take care brother, God bless you!

CanyonMan
07-30-2012, 12:47
Good to hear from you brother, and yes I most certainly will let you know any new data I get for the .45 Super. I haven't loaded up in any .45 Super recently, but your post brought to mind that a few days ago I tested some regular .45 ACP using my trusty ole Glock 30sf. Similar to your numbers, with 7.7gr of Power Pistol I averaged 883 fps with a 230gr JHP loaded to 1.24" out of the 3.78" bbl...which isn't bad! The listed max is 8.1gr, although I haven't tried that... yet!

I think I will keep the 30sf stock since it still delivers good numbers, and stick to the G21sf as my .45 Super outfit. Good to hear you're getting one, they shoot so nicely, very easy to shoot and the .45 Super isn't bad at all, about like 10mm.

Take care brother, God bless you!



Yeh, I was really surprised to see these vels out of the little single stack G36, but very happy to get them. It is a very nice gun for carry in certain circumstances and places. I like the G30 as well. I sold my last one to help finance a S&W 629... ha

883fps is fine as well fro the G30. as Long as I can get 850+ out of a 230gr in my 45's I'm happy. That is plenty enough with the momentum of that 230gr hunk. ha.

Good wisdom in what your doing with the G30/G21. That is why I want to sell the G29 I have now and get he G21 back in my hands. I like the idea of the 230gr 45 at 1100/1200fps and has 13 rounds in one mag. ;)

What barrel are you using for the 45 super in the G21 brother? I got a LW in the G20 and it works great for savin brass life, but I must admit, the OEM works really well for me even with my hotter loads, just get the buldges, but all is well other than that.

I was telling a brother yesterday, that the 200gr .40 10mm at 1300, is nice, but I'll take the 230gr 45 at 1200 any time.

Stay in touch and let me know how the 45 super test and trials or going.


God bless you as well my brother !
Time is short ! ;)






CM

SDGlock23
07-30-2012, 15:37
Yes the .45 Super really shines and gives you big power and lots of rounds in the magazine. The barrel I'm using in the G21 is a KKM stock length one, it does have much better case support and works very well when shooting the Super. I use the same 22lb captured guide rod I do in the G20sf. It didn't feed some 230 XTP's loaded to 1.24", but I measured the factory Hornady version and they run around 1.23" and they fed fine. Something about the profile of the XTP that prevents it from being seated very long, at least in my barrel. It will feed to a longer OAL as long as the bullet is a little more rounded, like a Gold Dot or Golden Sabre, etc.

I've seen pretty good numbers others have posted using Blue Dot and 800x but haven't tried those yet either. There is load data out there for 250-260gr+ loads, which could be very interesting and hopefully I will get around to that. I might try some 200gr XTP's too.

Stay safe amigo.

CanyonMan
07-30-2012, 19:14
Yes the .45 Super really shines and gives you big power and lots of rounds in the magazine. The barrel I'm using in the G21 is a KKM stock length one, it does have much better case support and works very well when shooting the Super. I use the same 22lb captured guide rod I do in the G20sf. It didn't feed some 230 XTP's loaded to 1.24", but I measured the factory Hornady version and they run around 1.23" and they fed fine. Something about the profile of the XTP that prevents it from being seated very long, at least in my barrel. It will feed to a longer OAL as long as the bullet is a little more rounded, like a Gold Dot or Golden Sabre, etc.

I've seen pretty good numbers others have posted using Blue Dot and 800x but haven't tried those yet either. There is load data out there for 250-260gr+ loads, which could be very interesting and hopefully I will get around to that. I might try some 200gr XTP's too.

Stay safe amigo.


Going to make this fast here, the wife was in a car wreck this evening, and we have all the insurance stuff out of the way and made all the calls etc, but I need to spend the evening with her and encourage her.. She is ok, but a bit bummed, it was her "brand new off the lot truck..." Just a few miles she had on it. Some guy up on the highway hit her in the rear. Damage is minimal, but it is a bummer to the mind and heart for her since it's brand new.. :crying:

Well amigo, yeh, PP should be and I think will be a real good powder in the super and bD as well.

My G36 and all my 45's eat XTP's real well, so maybe the KKM doesn't like em??? :dunno:

I load 45acp to 1.260 with the 7.7grs PP and 230gr XTP, and the OEM eats 'em, but they may have to be a tad shorter for an AM barrel. So some figuring out to do sounds like to work up some good loads and not have to seat to deep and raise pressures... Well rambling some brother. I got to much on my mind and best go right now..

I'll PM ya my email addres and we can jaw back and forth if ya want to... ;)


Jesus be with ya !






CM

SickDick
08-01-2012, 20:11
So I tossed the shock buff and got some wolff extra power mag springs and headed out to the range. I started with some .45 acp 230 gr. handloads, she ran good. Then I went to some 185 gr .45 supers, again ran good. Went back to some .45 acp's and things started to fall apart, wouldn't always cycle the next round again. Went back to the 45 super and she started jamming on the bullet. HELP! I need this gun to RUN BABY RUN.

vaquero aleman
08-02-2012, 16:00
I don't know if this will help you, but I had to use two standard mag springs in each mag for my 21. I had the same feeding issues with 45 Super and 460 Rowland. It did not fix the 460 Rowland but 230gr @ 1100fps runs like a charm with the doubled mag springs. I also run a Sprinco with an upgraded sub spring and a 22# recoil spring. It will feed 8 out of 10 on the 460 Rowland and feeds the Super with no problems. Good luck.

P.S. my "extra power" wolff mag springs are collecting dust.

SDGlock23
08-03-2012, 08:25
A little more data here. I wanted to mess around a little with 200gr bullets in the Super. All loaded to 1.220" using 200gr Speer TMJ, CCI LP primers and new Starline cases. 4.6" KKM barrel used in NP3 G21sf and captured 22lb RSA.

Temp was pretty hot, around 90 degrees but humidity wasn't that bad, I'm at about 1000-1050 ft above sea level. Loaded up three batches using Power Pistol. 10.5gr, 10.8gr, and 11gr. Five shot averages.

10.5gr PP average: 1209 fps / 649 ft-lbs
10.8gr PP average: 1241 fps / 683 ft-lbs
11.0gr PP average: 1278 fps / 725 ft-lbs

All brass looked good, primers were not flattened. All did have some extractor rash on them, but not severe.

I tend to prefer 230gr bullets when shooting .45 pistols, but the 200gr .45 is my next choice, I think the 200gr Gold Dot and XTP make for some good personal protection...and traveling out at almost 1300 fps doesn't hurt either! I don't have any 185gr bullets to test, as I'm not real fond of that weight in .45's but I may get a few to load up. I've seen those running around 1400 fps in the .45 Super for what it's worth.

CanyonMan
08-03-2012, 13:08
A little more data here. I wanted to mess around a little with 200gr bullets in the Super. All loaded to 1.220" using 200gr Speer TMJ, CCI LP primers and new Starline cases. 4.6" KKM barrel used in NP3 G21sf and captured 22lb RSA.

Temp was pretty hot, around 90 degrees but humidity wasn't that bad, I'm at about 1000-1050 ft above sea level. Loaded up three batches using Power Pistol. 10.5gr, 10.8gr, and 11gr. Five shot averages.

10.5gr PP average: 1209 fps / 649 ft-lbs
10.8gr PP average: 1241 fps / 683 ft-lbs
11.0gr PP average: 1278 fps / 725 ft-lbs

All brass looked good, primers were not flattened. All did have some extractor rash on them, but not severe.

I tend to prefer 230gr bullets when shooting .45 pistols, but the 200gr .45 is my next choice, I think the 200gr Gold Dot and XTP make for some good personal protection...and traveling out at almost 1300 fps doesn't hurt either! I don't have any 185gr bullets to test, as I'm not real fond of that weight in .45's but I may get a few to load up. I've seen those running around 1400 fps in the .45 Super for what it's worth.



Very good info brother. Copied and stashed away for "that day" when I get my 21 back... (or another one i should say).

Nope, nothing wrong with 200gr GD's XTP's at those vels at all. Like you, I prefer the 230gr in all my 45's but am not opposed at all to using 200gr. Man even the 230gr are moving out plenty good enough. As I said, I am gettng 907fps out of my little G36 in 45acp OEM barrel with 7.7grs PP. :wow:

I need to send ya some 225gr Beartooth Hard Cast, and see what ya can do with those. I also got some Hunter Supply 200gr Hard Cast Pentagon HP's my friend at HS sent me to test in the 45acp. I would be interested to see what you get from them in the 45 super. PM me an address, and I'll send ya some next week when I can, if ya want to.


Thanks for the good info here brother..

Stay safe
God bless ya.




CM

21Glock
08-12-2012, 06:16
I'm still having trouble with my G21SF cycling the .45 Super rounds here lately. I have a 22lb. ISMI recoil spring, SS guide rod, LW 6" non ported barrel.
I got the Wolff extra power mag springs, still jamming. It will fire a round and then jam at the feed ram. I think it's the profile of the bullet I'm using. I have been using Rainer 230 JHP slugs. They have a SWC shape to the nose and may be causing the jam.
When I first starting shooting .45 Supers in this set up a couple of years ago, I was using Speer Gold Dots and Remington Golder Sabre. Don't remember that happening with those bullets, more of round nose profile. I'll try to find some of those scarce and more expensive bullets and see how they work.

vaquero aleman
08-12-2012, 08:17
I'm still having trouble with my G21SF cycling the .45 Super rounds here lately. I have a 22lb. ISMI recoil spring, SS guide rod, LW 6" non ported barrel.
I got the Wolff extra power mag springs, still jamming. It will fire a round and then jam at the feed ram. I think it's the profile of the bullet I'm using. I have been using Rainer 230 JHP slugs. They have a SWC shape to the nose and may be causing the jam.
When I first starting shooting .45 Supers in this set up a couple of years ago, I was using Speer Gold Dots and Remington Golder Sabre. Don't remember that happening with those bullets, more of round nose profile. I'll try to find some of those scarce and more expensive bullets and see how they work.

I had the same problem until I finally managed to get two standard magazine springs installed into one magazine. The double springs provide far more power than the Wolff extra power springs. Unfortunately, I can only get 11 rounds in my mags but they feed the 230gr 45 Super I got from Underwood Ammo without problems.

21Glock
08-12-2012, 13:18
I'll try that with some of the mag springs I took out to put in the Wollf springs.

G21SF's firing one shot of .45 Supers aren't much good to anyone.

Thanks for the tip.

21Glock
08-12-2012, 15:03
BTW, are you running a 22lb. recoil spring in your G21 or are you using a 24lb.?
I have a 24lb. as well as the 22lb. one that I keep in there most of the time.

vaquero aleman
08-12-2012, 16:31
The Wolff recoil spring that I received had 24# printed on the label but I put it on a fish scale and I believe that it is a 22#. I also have a Sprinco with an up graded sub spring installed because my 21 is set up to fire 460 Rowland as well as 45 Super and ACP. Everything I have done to my 21 has been trying to get it to function with 460 Rowland and it has been a challenge. I finally, with the double mag springs, got it to feed 8 out of 10 of the 460, and I am not using a ported barrel or a compensator. Consequently I load my mags with the bottom 3 rounds 230gr @ 1100fps and the last 8 230gr @ 1300fps.

CanyonMan
08-12-2012, 16:56
I'm still having trouble with my G21SF cycling the .45 Super rounds here lately. I have a 22lb. ISMI recoil spring, SS guide rod, LW 6" non ported barrel.
I got the Wolff extra power mag springs, still jamming. It will fire a round and then jam at the feed ram. I think it's the profile of the bullet I'm using. I have been using Rainer 230 JHP slugs. They have a SWC shape to the nose and may be causing the jam.
When I first starting shooting .45 Supers in this set up a couple of years ago, I was using Speer Gold Dots and Remington Golder Sabre. Don't remember that happening with those bullets, more of round nose profile. I'll try to find some of those scarce and more expensive bullets and see how they work.



Hey amigo, I use 22# ISMI springs and a areo-tek SS rod in the G20/21. But, let me share this with ya. When I put the extra power wolff "mag springs" in, everything went south !!!

Same type issues your having. I put in NEW OEM springs (mag springs) and ALL was fine from then to now.

I know folks use them and no problems, i am happy for them, but I have always had issues with Wolff xtra power mag springs... Would never use them again.


Hope this helps in some way...


Good luck amigo !








CM

21Glock
08-13-2012, 14:56
I had the same problem until I finally managed to get two standard magazine springs installed into one magazine. The double springs provide far more power than the Wolff extra power springs. Unfortunately, I can only get 11 rounds in my mags but they feed the 230gr 45 Super I got from Underwood Ammo without problems.


I managed to get two original mag springs into one of my OEM Glock mags that I'll use for the .45 Super rounds. Man, I see what you mean, it is STIFF, ought to keep the slide from out running the mag with this kind of pressure in the mags.
Looking forward to trying it out soon. If I can only get 7-8 .45 Supers in this mag I will be happy. Feed and function is what I need to turn this G 21SF into a great woods gun, along with my Gen 4 20 10mm.

vaquero aleman
08-13-2012, 20:41
Sounds great! I get 11 rounds in my double-sprung mags. Good luck.

21Glock
08-13-2012, 21:11
I had to use my OEM mag loader to the get the rounds to load into the mag. Real strong spring pressure with the double springs.
Hopefully, this should cure the jamming after I fire the first round. I'll be getting some more 230 gr. JHP bullets soon, more of a round nose profile this time.

I enjoy the .45 Super round too much to let the jamming stop me.

Where there is a will, there is a way, as they say....

Cycletroll
08-15-2012, 14:04
Warning: the following information is conjecture by a total amateur and may result in you blowing off your face! follow at your own Darwinian risk!

Over the last two years I have done extensive testing of hot loads out of my G21 (gen 3) with both the stock barrel and a standard (4.6") Lone Wolf barrel. I have also played around with lots of recoil spring combinations.
My opinion is that, up to the point you are edging into Rowland level pressures, the stock mag springs are fine. For anything more than +p level recoil a 22-24# spring is advisable. I think most people are having cycling problems at the upper end more from not holding the gun flat than not having enough spring. With high recoil and slide velocities unintended limp wristing results. Glocks are light and with high recoil impulse it is very easy to let the muzzle snap upwards which can lead to FTF problems.
I have duplicated many of the loads presented here as well as many with IMR 800x. ~1100fps with the Hunters Supply 275gr WFN is very doable with factory Win. brass and WLP primers and 800x.
The real issue with the G21 is chamber support (or lack thereof :) with the stock barrel. Hot +p or entry .45 super loads are all the brass will take (even Starline super brass) with the huge hogged out stock barrel. With a well supported chamber .460 Rowland level loads are possible with standard Win .45ACP brass. The issue with many aftermarket chambers is short throats. Sending JR at LWD your barrel with some dummy loads can result in more room to run longer COL and reduce pressure.
Longshot, Power Pistol, and 800x are the powers to go to. Blue dot gives decent numbers but gets peaky and will spike badly in cold weather. IMO it's dangerous for hot loads. If you use 800x or Longshot and work up slowly in the stock barrel you will get a very predictable increase in case head expansion at the six o'clock position. You can go much higher in a LWD or KKM barrel.
As many have noted, the G21 loaded with heavy hard cast is a fearsome woods gun. As far as I am concerned the Hunters Supply 275gr at about 1050 will do anything you need out of a handgun short of the great bears. This load shoots about an inch and to point of aim with my stock Meprolights and is well below max load for the gun and fairly mellow shooting. It sails through elk too ;)
The next evolution is to have the slide inletted and mount a Trijicon RMR so you have a handheld carbine with easy hits out to 150yds :)

SickDick
08-15-2012, 19:16
SHE RUNS, SHE RUNS!! I tried the 2 mag springs and all problems went away. I can get 11 in the mag and 13 with +2 mag extenders. I used 1 stock spring and 1 Wolff spring together in each mag, the Wolff springs are coiled a little different so they fit inside the stock spring. I am now thinking about getting some springs for the 25 round mags and cutting them to the necessary size to function and maybe I will be able to get 1 more round in the mag.

21Glock
08-18-2012, 19:57
I don't know if this will help you, but I had to use two standard mag springs in each mag for my 21. I had the same feeding issues with 45 Super and 460 Rowland. It did not fix the 460 Rowland but 230gr @ 1100fps runs like a charm with the doubled mag springs. I also run a Sprinco with an upgraded sub spring and a 22# recoil spring. It will feed 8 out of 10 on the 460 Rowland and feeds the Super with no problems. Good luck.

P.S. my "extra power" wolff mag springs are collecting dust.


Hey, thanks for for the tip on the double mag springs. I tried that today with my .45 Super loads and no JAMS. Not one. I only shot about 7 on one string of shots and three on another one. But, it quit jamming. Great tip to cure the jamming and keep the .45 Super's rockin along in my G21SF.

vaquero aleman
08-18-2012, 20:58
21Glock Your more than welcome, it was very frustrating for me and then someone gave me the same tip. Good Luck!

21Glock
08-19-2012, 20:14
21Glock Your more than welcome, it was very frustrating for me and then someone gave me the same tip. Good Luck!


I'll keep this one mag rigged with the double springs for the .45 Super loads and my standard mags with one springs set up for my practice and SD loads.
Have you used a 24lb. recoil spring any with your .45 Super loads while using the double springs in your mag?
I'm using about 13.5 gr. of AA#7 behind a 230gr. JHP for around 1200 fps in my .45 Super loads. Definite difference from shooting hardball or standard .45 ACP rounds.

vaquero aleman
08-20-2012, 05:50
I'll keep this one mag rigged with the double springs for the .45 Super loads and my standard mags with one springs set up for my practice and SD loads.
Have you used a 24lb. recoil spring any with your .45 Super loads while using the double springs in your mag?
I'm using about 13.5 gr. of AA#7 behind a 230gr. JHP for around 1200 fps in my .45 Super loads. Definite difference from shooting hardball or standard .45 ACP rounds.

I ordered a Wolff 20, 22 and 24# recoil spring and eventually left the 24# installed. Being a man that trusts very few people, I bought a fish scale from Wal Mart and tested my springs. I believe that the 24# is closer to a 22#, but it does just fine. The double sprung mags were my last modification. But, you have to understand, I have been engineering my G21 to fire .460 Rowland. The 45 Super loads I have been shooting are from Underwood Ammo and they are 230gr @ 1100fps. The Rowland loads are 230gr @ 1300fps and as soon as Underwood begins selling thier Rowland loads it will be 230gr @ 1350fps. I eventually purchased a "Sprinco" recoil reduction system to stop the slide from destroying the frame. The Sprinco "Corbon" unit was not strong enough for the Rowland so I returned it to the factory and they upgraded the sub spring for Rowland. So when I shoot 45 Super it is more like shooting medium range 10mm loads. And when I shoot 45 ACP it is like shooting a BB gun. But I have also skipped the compensator which Johnny Rowland says is necessary to shoot his .460 Rowland. I have an LWD 5.2" 45 ACP barrel that I cut down to 4.75" and reamed out to accept .460 Rowland(.460 Rowland cases are 1/16" longer than ACP). It is really pushing the limitations of the G21 to shoot 460 Rowland without a compensator but that is what I have. With the compensator installed it is just too much gun to carry comfortably. I intend to, eventually, purchase a solid top long slide and 6.61" barrel from LWD and a Yankee Hill Machine compensator, but that is down the road a bit. I believe that with the 6.61" barrel I can get a 185 grain bullet to leave the muzzle at about 1700 fps. Or a 230 grain bullet at about 1500 fps. And if I start re-loading I might be able to attain 45 Winchester Magnum velocity. Pretty hot, no?

21Glock
08-20-2012, 09:08
I ordered a Wolff 20, 22 and 24# recoil spring and eventually left the 24# installed. Being a man that trusts very few people, I bought a fish scale from Wal Mart and tested my springs. I believe that the 24# is closer to a 22#, but it does just fine. The double sprung mags were my last modification. But, you have to understand, I have been engineering my G21 to fire .460 Rowland. The 45 Super loads I have been shooting are from Underwood Ammo and they are 230gr @ 1100fps. The Rowland loads are 230gr @ 1300fps and as soon as Underwood begins selling thier Rowland loads it will be 230gr @ 1350fps. I eventually purchased a "Sprinco" recoil reduction system to stop the slide from destroying the frame. The Sprinco "Corbon" unit was not strong enough for the Rowland so I returned it to the factory and they upgraded the sub spring for Rowland. So when I shoot 45 Super it is more like shooting medium range 10mm loads. And when I shoot 45 ACP it is like shooting a BB gun. But I have also skipped the compensator which Johnny Rowland says is necessary to shoot his .460 Rowland. I have an LWD 5.2" 45 ACP barrel that I cut down to 4.75" and reamed out to accept .460 Rowland(.460 Rowland cases are 1/16" longer than ACP). It is really pushing the limitations of the G21 to shoot 460 Rowland without a compensator but that is what I have. With the compensator installed it is just too much gun to carry comfortably. I intend to, eventually, purchase a solid top long slide and 6.61" barrel from LWD and a Yankee Hill Machine compensator, but that is down the road a bit. I believe that with the 6.61" barrel I can get a 185 grain bullet to leave the muzzle at about 1700 fps. Or a 230 grain bullet at about 1500 fps. And if I start re-loading I might be able to attain 45 Winchester Magnum velocity. Pretty hot, no?

Thanks for info. I'll probably just use my 24lb. when I shoot .45 Supers, just to make sure I keep the slide off the frame as much as possible. Now that I have it not jamming anymore.
The .460 Rowland should turn your 21 into a real cannon!

Shaker223
08-22-2012, 19:41
Vaquero Aleman, did the factory give you any idea of the weight of the upgraded sprinco unit?

I'm having frame contact with a 24# Wolff spring. I'm pushing 185xtp's north of 1,350fps. The 21 cycles good...no issues.

I've been thinking of trying to modify a 1911 28# spring to see if that could help with the contact.

vaquero aleman
08-22-2012, 20:49
Vaquero Aleman, did the factory give you any idea of the weight of the upgraded sprinco unit?

I'm having frame contact with a 24# Wolff spring. I'm pushing 185xtp's north of 1,350fps. The 21 cycles good...no issues.

I've been thinking of trying to modify a 1911 28# spring to see if that could help with the contact.

If your talking about spring weight, the recoil spring that they provide is 17# but the sub-spring is a different story. I use a 22# recoil spring with my Sprinco and they never actually told me what the weight of the sub-spring is, but my Wal Mart fish scale puts it around 35#. I originally purchased the Glock 20/21 "Corbon" model but I had to send it back to them and I told them my ammo was 230gr @ 1350fps and they said they would install a sub-spring that would handle that Power Factor. Of course the ammo that I purchased was from GA Arms and it is a 230gr @ 1300fps. As soon as Underwood gets it listed I will be buying my 460 Rowland from them, because it will be full power 230gr @ 1350fps, from a 5 inch barrel I am assuming.

I did not follow any rules in modifying my 21 to fire Rowland.

I am pleased to note, that in its present configuration, my 21 feels like I'm shooting 10mm when I shoot 230gr @ 1100fps. It handles 45 Super like most handle 45 ACP.

This is my 460 Rowland thread:
http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1409265

Shaker223
08-24-2012, 15:49
Sprinco unit ordered. Allen is a good guy to work with. V.A., he remembered you, so I reminded him of what you were looking for and had him duplicate it. Thanks for the tip, should be here next week.

vaquero aleman
08-24-2012, 16:44
Sprinco unit ordered. Allen is a good guy to work with. V.A., he remembered you, so I reminded him of what you were looking for and had him duplicate it. Thanks for the tip, should be here next week.

Sounds great! I would definately like to read about your results. I've pretty much only shot the 230gr in Super and Rowland so I don't have as much trigger time with the lighter stuff yet.

Shaker223
09-18-2012, 19:15
I finally shot my G21 with the new Sprinco setup. I marked the slide with a paint marker to see if there was frame contact and there was none. (I also put it in my G20 and it performes flawlessy there too)

I used previously loaded ammo that had 185gr Hornady XTP and AA#7. Velocities were in the 1325fps range. The cases and primers looked great with room to go up.

I would like to see if I can safely make 1400fps.

SgtSchroeder27
09-26-2012, 10:58
Hey guys,
Thanks for all your info on the 45 Super, I've been reading up on it and I decided to go in but I have a few questions.

What are the basic things to buy?

I have a Gen 3 21 with a Storm Lake threaded barrel already (looking at selling it to buy a 6" though)

Thanks!

reflex264
09-26-2012, 14:04
The 6" storm lake is the stuff. Mine shoots 10 shot 1" groups at 25 yards off of bags.

Think about your trigger as well. I am using a lone wolf housing with adjustable over travel stop, a 6#trigger spring, 3.5 connector, titanium safety button, polished factory striker and a siderlockt trigger. Mine is 1000X better than the factory trigger which greatly aids accuracy. reflex264

Iceman cHucK
09-29-2012, 21:56
About 4 years ago I spent a lot of time on 45Super in my G21 but could not get feed reliability. After reading this, the double mag spring may be the answer I was looking for. I have two LW barrels,one standard length and one threaded 5.3". I believe the extra chamber support is needed as I got too many smilys with the OEM Glock barrel. I used both the 22 and 24lb ISMI captured recoil springs. Tried the shok buffs but they quickly got cut up so I pitched them. Tried the Wolf Xtra power springs but thought they were worse! I concluded then that the slide velocity was too too fast for the mag springs to to catch up, resulting in nose dives into the feed ramp and mag. I was using BB 230s at 1100fps. Gary Hindman at ACE in TX told me they had to port the barrel to get the 45Super to work in the G21. He also gave me the spring specs to use in my S&W 4506, which has worked flawlessly in 45Super, and will still work 100% in 45+P and standard press 45ACP.

Double mag springs looks like the answer! Thanks folks, will give it a go!
Hey CanyonMan, Tu 45Super or not Tu do?

Also: re the XTP 230 bullets. Factory Hornady 230 XTPs have a shoulder on the bullet that would jam in the barrel lands on my LW barrels but not in the Glock barrel. To use these XTPs in the LW barrel, the bullets would have to be seated deeper, or ream out the barrel lands slightly so the bullet doesn't kiss them so hard!

SDGlock23
10-27-2012, 10:13
More data! I ran through an assortment of .45 ACP and .45 Super loads today. All shot from my Gen4 Glock 21 with 4 port KKM barrel (approx 5" in length). Listed .45 Super loads used new Starline brass and CCI LP primers. The velocities are averages.

10gr Power Pistol, 230gr XTP @ 1.260": 1177 fps (707 ft-lbs)

Previously I had loaded 9.5gr at a shorter 1.230" and got 1135 fps average out of my older stock length KKM barrel (4.6"), but it was also about 90 degrees outside, whereas with the data today, temps were around 50 degrees. My new KKM 4 port will accept XTP's loaded out to 1.260" (and longer, but I don't see going past 1.260") but my previous stock length barrel would only accept them @ 1.230".

My goal is 1200 fps with a 230gr JHP. If it was warmer out, I could have gotten it I think, but next up I'm going to try 10gr PP @ ~1.240-1.250". Brass looked good throughout all testing and I feel this is safe and should get me to, and even over, the 1200 fps mark. A note on bullets, I chose the XTP for several reasons. One I have more of them, and they're shorter than 230gr Gold Dots and I feel they might hold up the best at these speeds. The 230gr Gold Dot is definitely longer than the 230gr XTP, so loaded to the same OAL, powder charge would need to decrease, then work your way back up. I know it isn't scientific, but the 230gr Gold Dot @ 1175-1200 fps blows apart in water jugs, and I do mean completely blows apart, all the pedals sheared off except one what was barely hanging on.

On game, the Gold Dot probably wouldn't come apart quite as bad since water jugs have a tenancy to exaggerate expansion. Either way, the XTP and Gold Dot are my two go-to hollow point bullets for the .45 Super.

More data:
11.3gr Power Pistol, 200gr XTP @ 1.260": 1351 fps (810+ ft-lbs)
Very impressed with this, although it may be too much of a good thing. The biggest issue I see concerning the .45 Super (a problem made even worse in the 460 Rowland) is that I'm pushing bullets designed for .45 ACP velocities well above what they're "supposed" to be driven. This doesn't make it "bad", it just means that one should almost expect bullet failure. Just throwing that out there for thought.

The 200gr XTP and 200gr Gold Dot are very similar in length, and both are my pick for bullets most likely to hold together.

More:
9.5gr 800x, 230gr FMJ @ 1.260": 1080 fps (very consistent, extreme spread of 7 fps). I was uncertain of what to expect with this load, but it shot very well. Not the most powerful 230gr load, but still offers around 600 ft-lbs of muzzle energy.

8.5gr Power Pistol, 250gr hardcast Missouri "PinBusters" @ 1.220": 1101 fps (673 ft-lbs) This bullet is hardcast and although I prefer other designs, this one should get the job done, and they're inexpensive to boot.


I've been curious of ~250gr bullets in the .45 Super, and it's something I plan on playing with more. Next up I'm going to do 250gr Gold Dots ("Deepcurl")and I'm going to order some Beartooth 255gr WFN bullets. The 250gr Gold Dot is very long, but it will feed if I seat it to a max OAL of 1.210", which is right around the canalure anyways. Data is non existent so I will have to work up a load for it, but that's almost the case with any .45 Super. My goal is 1050-1100 fps with it.

The Beartooth 255 WFN is a very short bullet for it's weight, so that could be very interesting. I know a guy on here has loaded up the Beartooth 265gr WFNGC and got it up to ~1150 fps. My goal for the 255gr WFN is ~1150 fps from my 5" KKM barrel, that's more than enough for any critter I would use, and if I need more the 454 Casull comes out.

Also I plan on coming up with some VV 3N38 data as well, it's been very impressive in my 6" G24 bbl and I feel it could be awesome as well in the .45 Super.

Cycletroll
10-27-2012, 12:26
Try the Hunters Supply 275gr WFN. It is short and will fit in LW barrels. I've run it at 1100 fps. Works great.

SDGlock23
10-27-2012, 13:56
Thanks, yes I had looked at that bullet as well and have heard good things about it.

SDGlock23
11-02-2012, 08:10
Some more data I got yesterday, all velocities are averages and shot from my Gen4 G21 w/KKM 4 port barrel (5"). Temp was around 50 degrees. Brass is new Starline and I use CCI LP primers.

I am also using a captured 22lb RSA, I use the Glockworx adapter ring for Gen4's Glocks. It works like a charm on all my Gen4 Glocks in case you want to use gen3 recoil spring assemblies in your Gen4.

230gr FMJ, 9.8r Power Pistol @ 1.250": 1174 fps

250gr Gold Dot, 8gr Power Pistol @ 1.215": 1031 fps (8 fps extreme spread!!)

255gr Beartooth WFN (250gr), 8.8gr Power Pistol @ 1.175": 1125 fps


Notes: Previously the 230gr XTP @ 1.260 averaged 1177 fps, and my Precision Delta 230gr FMJ bullets are longer than the 230gr XTP. Next round will be the 230gr XTP loaded to 1.240-1.250 w/10gr Power Pistol.

All brass looked good. The 250gr Gold Dot load was a soft shooter for sure and I feel going 8.2gr PP is safe. A quick note, just like the 230gr Gold Dot, I don't feel the 250gr Gold Dot is meant for real high velocities.

It's been my experience that the longer pedal (usually heavier weight) Gold Dots don't hold up as well as the shorter pedal ones. An example, a 165gr Gold Dot from my .40 cal Gen4 G35 w/KKM 6" G24 barrel averages 1400 fps with VV 3N38, but held together very well and very uniformly in water whereas the 230gr Gold Dot in the .45 Super driven to around 1200 fps completely came apart. The 250gr Gold Dot is the same, I've driven it faster than it's meant to out of a warm .45 Colt and it too came apart.

I feel both bullets (230gr and 250gr Gold Dot) should be kept under 1100 fps. So after chronographing the 250gr Gold Dots, I loaded up one more with 8.2gr Power Pistol @ 1.210" and shot it into some jugs. Penetrated 4 jugs and did a real number on the first two and split the bottom of the third. I know, I know, water jug "testing" isn't really testing, but IMHO if it holds together in water, it will likely hold together in critters. If it penetrates deep in water, you can rest assured it's a deep penetrator.

I'm guessing the impact velocity to be around 1050 fps, here's a pic:

http://imageshack.us/a/img850/5391/supergolddots.jpg

Soft shooting, deep penetration, expanded to an avg of almost .80 cal and and 8 fps extreme spread. Looks like my quest for the 250gr Gold Dot in the .45 Super is complete. Oh, the shredded bullet in the background is a 230gr Gold Dot driven to around 1200 fps.

The Beartooth 255gr WFN is a nice bullet, although I had to seat it deeper than I really wanted, it's not so bad. The reason is that it's a very short bullet for it's weight, shorter than my 230gr bullets. 1.175" was the longest OAL it would chamber in my barrel. However, since it's so short, the base of the bullet isn't protruding any deeper into the case than any other bullet despite it's shorter OAL. Next up, I'm trying 9gr Power Pistol seated to 1.170".

NoJoy
11-08-2012, 03:22
How does the KKM barrel with comp handle the recoil with the Super? Does it make a pretty good difference?

SDGlock23
11-12-2012, 10:03
NoJoy, yes it does help out and certainly dampens the recoil. Not only does it help the recoil, but it seems to be a little easier on the brass. I think it along with the 22lb recoil spring slows the slide down enough compared to the previous stock length (4.6") KKM bbl, and as such, the brass doesn't have nearly the extractor bite on it as it used to.

NoJoy
11-13-2012, 02:20
Good to know thx! Can I get away with shooting the Super out of a Stock Gen 4 21 (with stock duel recoil spring) by just changing out the stock barrel for the KKM barrel with comp?
Sorry if you have already answered a simuliar question. :)

dougader
11-14-2012, 00:07
what is you overall length with the 265? Reflex264

1.185 - 1.186"

dougader
11-14-2012, 00:08
Dougader,

Appreciate your load data and pictures of the WFNGC bullet... I am going to try that bullet out.

The Beartooth 265 grain WFNGC hardcast slug ...What dia. did you get... .451?

Thanks,

Jerry

Hey Jerry, Mine is .451"

SDGlock23
11-19-2012, 09:38
Good to know thx! Can I get away with shooting the Super out of a Stock Gen 4 21 (with stock duel recoil spring) by just changing out the stock barrel for the KKM barrel with comp?
Sorry if you have already answered a simuliar question. :)

Yeap that will work NoJoy.

NoJoy
11-20-2012, 01:53
Ok thx appreciate it!

SDGlock23
02-07-2013, 13:12
More fresh .45 Super data from Gen4 G21 w/4 port KKM barrel (barrel itself w/threading is 5" long)

New Starline brass and CCI LP:

230gr FMJ, 9.5gr Longshot @ 1.250": 1,185 fps (15 fps ES!!) That's 717 ft-lbs!

230gr FMJ, 9.8gr Longshot @ 1.250": 1,229 fps (37 fps ES) That's 771 ft-lbs!

"255gr" Beartooth WFN, 9.0gr Power Pistol @ 1.175": 1,179 fps (13 fps ES!) That's 772 ft-lbs (it really weighs in at 250gr, not 255gr)

"280gr" Beartooth WFNGC, 8.0gr Power Pistol @ 1.180": 1,065 fps (24 fps ES) That's 693 ft-lbs (it's a 275gr, not 280gr)

Notes: brass looked good on all loads. I had no previous data on the 280gr WFNGC, so I used 8.0gr. I feel 8.2gr would have been safe, even possibly 8.4/8.5gr. That should get me the 1100 fps I'm after, but I'm not disappointed since 1,065 fps is pretty close and it's still gonna kill quick and penetrate well.

SDGlock23
02-09-2013, 17:05
I'm going to load up some 200gr next with Longshot. I'm going to keep them a little below starting charges for the 460 Rowland, like above with the 230gr as the starting charge for the 460 Rowland is 10.0gr. Have I ever mentioned that Hodgdon .45 Super data is a joke?

SDGlock23
02-10-2013, 15:01
.45 Super w/200gr TMJ @ 1.225" (New Starline brass and CCI LP primers) average from 5" KKM was 1,310 fps. Not quite what I got using Power Pistol, but overall not bad at all.

SDGlock23
03-09-2013, 15:33
Too nice of a day to pass up! I had a few ideas in my head and wanted to see the results. Temperature between 55-60 degress outside and the gun is my normal, Gen4 G21 with KKM 4 port compensated barrel (5") with 22lb RSA (gen3). CCI LP primers and new Starline brass was used.

Working with Power Pistol and Longshot today:

250gr XTP, 8.5gr Power Pistol @ 1.190": 1,104 fps (20 fps ES)

250gr XTP, 9.0gr Power Pistol @ 1.190": 1,128 fps (38 fps ES)

250gr XTP, 8.5gr Longshot @ 1.190": 1,124 fps (12 fps ES!)

250gr XTP, 9.0gr Longshot @ 1.190": 1,164 fps (22 fps ES)

I like that the 250gr XTP has a somewhat short OAL, quite a bit shorter than my other 250gr HP, the Speer Gold Dot aka "Deep Curl". I was wanting over 1,100 fps and I got it, but was still curious as to how much, if any, it would expand at that velocity. I had to seat the bullet to 1.190" in order for it to chamber in the KKM, as 1.200" was just a hair too long, literally.

I think where the .45 Super/460 Rowland shine is not with .45 ACP designed bullets, although they can be pushed a little bit and still be okay. I think it's with the heavier 250gr+ bullets. Those bullets are usually designed tougher than ACP style bullets yet out of the Super/Rowland you don't have to worry about pushing them too fast because the bullets will take it. I believe the XTP is rated up to 1500-1600 fps, which you'll never see in a Super/Rowland.

Although unscientific, I loaded one up with Longshot and shot it into lined up water jugs and it penetrated to the 5th jug, shedding a little weight and coming in at 242.3gr, impact velocity over 1150 fps. Interestingly, with the same sectional density, a 200gr .400" XTP from a 6" .40 S&W will do over 1200 fps and also penetrate to the 5th jug. Both would be great choices on game. By comparison, a .451" 200gr XTP (.45 ACP designed) will do over 1300 fps from the Super, but only penetrates 3 jugs, although it did expand bigger, which is to be expected. Picture of the 250gr XTP:

http://imageshack.us/a/img708/4697/45super250xtp1175fps.jpg


I would have to say that I'm satisfied with a 250gr XTP leaving at over 1,150 fps, that's near 750 ft-lbs. To put that in perspective, that's as fast (or faster) than a .45 ACP 185gr +P and weights 65gr heavier, or the same speed as the 85gr lighter 165gr .40 S&W factory load.

SDGlock23
04-21-2013, 06:27
I've got some more .45 Super I'm going to work up, but in the meantime I found a nice little load for the .45 ACP. Shot from a stock Glock 30 Gen4 (3.78" barrel):

250gr Missouri RNFP "PinBuster" hardcast, 7.0gr Power Pistol @ 1.180": 910 fps avg, 3 fps extreme spread!

1.180 was the longest OAL that would chamber in the Glock barrel, I can load them a little longer out of the G21 KKM barrel but what I was looking for I found. And that is a load that packs a good punch, easily capable of dealing with most critters you would come into contact with in the woods, in the lower 48 at least! I feel this is a good solid load in a good carry-able package (G30).

Although I haven't tried them in the Glock barrel yet, the Beartooth 255gr WFN hardcast would be an even better option because 1) it's shorter than the Missouri RNFP and 2) has a larger meplat (flat nose) on it which is better if you want even more damage. As long as it cycled it would be a great choice too for those that only load for the .45 ACP.

SDGlock23
04-26-2013, 18:48
Got some beautiful Hunters Supply 275gr FN hardcasts in the mail yesterday!

http://imageshack.us/a/img59/9605/45super275grhunterssupp.jpg

Very good profile, I can even load them to 1.260" too so that's fantastic. I loaded some up today with them, mainly just to get a base. My goal is 1,100 fps from the 5" KKM, and I'm essentially there, just shy but that's easily fixed. Here's what I have for now:

275gr Hunters Supply, 8.5gr Power Pistol @ 1.260": 1,078 fps (29 fps ES) That's a TKO rating of 19.1!

275gr Hunters Supply, 8.5gr Longshot @ 1.260": 1,075 fps (16 fps ES!)

275gr Hunters Supply, 9.2gr 800x @ 1.260": 1,075 fps (26 fps ES)

275gr Hunters Supply, 10.0gr Blue Dot @ 1.260": 1,009 fps (22 fps ES!)

I sure didn't expect Power Pistol, Longshot and 800x to give me almost identical results. What I'm going to do next is drop the oal to around 1.250" and with both Longshot and Power Pistol work some a 8.4gr, 8.6gr and even try 8.8gr.

Blue Dot did well, just not as well...likely needs more powder! However since there's really not any data out there most of this was just to get an idea of where to go next.

A few little things extra. For a good stout .45 ACP load, a week or two ago I loaded up 7.0gr Power Pistol under a Missouri 250gr RNFP "PinBuster" at 1.180". These are loaded at this OAL only because that's the longest that would chamber in the Glock 30 Gen4. This same load averaged 910 fps from the 3.78" Glock 30 and out of the 5" KKM today, it averaged 975 fps. That's a pretty stout .45 ACP, and honestly, I'm real impressed with this load. I suspect around 950 fps from the Glock 21. Very useful and very potent for sure, and it's caused me to have have a whole new respect for this ole warhorse of a cartridge, just fantastic.

One more. Probably the epitome of useless, but in case you have some 395gr Cast Performance WLNGC bullets laying around and a Ruger to shoot them in, from my 5.5" Bisley:

395gr Cast Performance WLNGC, 19.0gr H110 @ 1.720": 1,007 fps (22 fps ES!)

395gr Cast Performance WLNGC, 16.0gr Lil'Gun @ 1.720": 968 fps (18 fps ES!)

Not real fast, but it's almost 1oz of lead too. I'm sure I could drive it faster but I don't really see a point to it. Just another load that there is almost zero data for. I'm sure I with a 7.5" barrel one could get close to 1,100 fps. But my preferred heavy load for my 5.5" Bisley is:

330gr Beartooth WFNPB, 22gr Lil'Gun @ 1.625": 1,287 fps (29 fps ES)

BUT! This is a .45 Super thread and I'll have more before long.

SDGlock23
05-12-2013, 18:56
I ran a few more this afternoon, very pleased with them. Will post up soon!

SDGlock23
05-14-2013, 11:06
Okay here's the data from the other day. From Gen4 G21 with KKM 4 port barrel (5"). Using new Starline brass and CCI LP primers.

I've used Longshot before with good results, but wanted to try more of it in the Super. Anyways, here's what I got.

250gr Speer Gold Dot, 8.5gr Longshot @ 1.215": 1,122 fps (35 fps ES) That's 699 ft-lbs !

275gr Hunters Supply Hardcast, 8.8gr Longshot @ 1.250":1,137 fps (15 fps ES!) That's 790 ft-lbs! (20.1 TKO rating)

I've got faster with the 250gr XTP but it's shorter than the 250 Gold Dot, which is a rather long bullet. The 1.215" OAL is the longest that will chamber in the G21 KKM barrel, the profile of the 250gr Gold Dot is more blunt, as it's a revolver bullet first and foremost.

However, what I got above is plenty fast, they will come apart in a hurry if driven too fast. To add, I loaded up a 200gr Gold Dot over 10.2gr Power Pistol and while I didn't chronograph it, I suspect to be hovering around 1200 fps from the 5" KKM since 10.5gr got me 1210 from the 4.6" KKM I used to have.

Bullet experienced some failure though since it shed several pedals which tells me ~1200 fps is a touch fast but not overly so, and while I know water jug testing isn't the be all end all of bullet testing, it's a media that's somewhat hard on bullets. So while that doesn't mean it will for sure come apart in flesh and bone, if it stays together in water there's a good chance it will in flesh.

I would say 1100 fps is plenty for the 250gr Gold Dot (and 230gr Gold Dot too). I'm pretty sure there aren't very many animals walking around that a 275gr hardcast at almost 1150 won't sail completely through. My goal was 1100 fps with the 275gr, and I'm beyond that so I probably won't be doing much else to that load, it's more than enough anyways. It's 25gr shy of 300gr and packs almost 800 ft-lbs along with it. Should work quite well :thumbsup:

Cycletroll
05-14-2013, 12:18
SD,
Nice to see you having fun with hotrodding the .45 :)
Your workups are pretty much identical to the stuff I did a couple years ago with a gen 3 G21 with a stock length LW barrel. I really like Power Pistol, Longshot, and 800x too.
That 275 HS is a real thumper and I found it to be an awesome elk bullet at 1100fps.

The reason I posted was just to give a heads up about Blue Dot: Be Careful!
Blue Dot has a nasty tendency to pressure spike and can do so with temperature changes. I would not push Blue Dot as far as I would with the aforementioned powders.

Have fun and keep posting your results so we can make the 10mm crowd jealous :tongueout:

SDGlock23
05-17-2013, 08:42
Cycle,

That's for the heads up, Blue Dot isn't a powder I've really messed with too much even though I have a couple of pounds of it laying around. Some swear by it, but I've been tickled with Power Pistol and Longshot and will likely stick to those :) I do have some 3N38 too, which could be interesting but I would have to start the data since there is no data for 3N38 in the .45 Super.

I may try some more 275gr data using a few different powders, but I've met my velocity goal, well exceeded it really. I haven't looked too hard for it, but if I can find a 300gr hardcast with a good profile I might work up some with those, just for kicks you know. Now that you mention it, 10mm guys are strangely silent when the .45 Super (or 460 Rowland) is brought up!

happie2shoot
05-19-2013, 22:38
SDGlock23

Do you think these would be worty a try

http://leeprecision.com/6-cavity-452-255-rf.html

I have some cast and waiting to get my 460 barrel in the mail.
If you think they would be any good I will send you some, they are
250gr.

SDGlock23
05-20-2013, 08:56
Happie,

That looks like a good one to me, plus it says it will work in .45 Auto which makes me think the profile should work. The 250gr RNFP Missouri's look very similar to that, and they will cycle for sure. I'm not sure what OAL that Lee mould would work with in the Super, but the longer case of the 460 Rowland is especially beneficial for more blunt nosed bullets since the OAL of the 460 is the same of the .45 Super, which of course depends on bullet.

I've got some real blunt Beartooth bullets that I've had to seat kind of deep in the Super that would really benefit from the longer Rowland case since being blunt doesn't effect it as much. One day I may just break down and get a 460 barrel, but for now I'll have to be one of the few 45 Super guys :)

Cycletroll
05-21-2013, 09:22
Just so people are clear, the only function of the longer case in the Rowland is to prevent higher pressure loads chambering in .45 acp guns not rated for it. The COL between .45acp, Super, and Rowland are all the same, and thus, the interior powder volume is the same (barring slight differences from variations in brass thickness).
I have loaded Standard Winchester .45acp brass to Rowland level loads (In a strong gun with a barrel with complete chamber support and strong recoil springs)

One does not need a Roland case/barrel to make Rowland level loads. One does need good brass (Winchester, or Starline) and a strong barrel with excellent 6 o'clock chamber support and of course adequate recoil management system i.e. strong recoil springs and a compensator.
Buying a complete Rowland "kit" is a great way to get a "tested and approved" system for shooting .451 bullets really fast at high pressures. It is not the only way to do it.
The main benefit of only shooting High pressure rounds in a Rowland case is that they won't fit in any old .45.

SDGlock23
05-21-2013, 15:11
I've thought of this as well, since the cartridge OAL is the same, there really wouldn't be any real difference between the .45 Super and Rowland as long as the same OAL is used. I read an article about the 460 Rowland and Starline said 460 Rowland brass is made just like 45 Super brass, just longer.

I have read the article of using ACP cases to get 460 Rowland level performance out of a Ruger Blackhawk convertible, but I've not tried it using ACP brass in the Glock, since I do have a good bit of .45 Super brass. Starline does claim Super brass is stronger than .45 ACP brass, equally strong is the 460R.

My personal opinion has been that .45 Super brass is equally as strong as 460 Rowland brass. Some loads I've found do have to seat deeper than I prefer because they're revolver based bullets, which is why for those bullets the 460 can hold an advantage, but if the OAL can be kept the same on both, I don't see why the .45 Super couldn't handle a 460R level load in a comped gun with good support.

Hondo341
06-17-2013, 03:14
http://imageshack.us/a/img708/4697/45super250xtp1175fps.jpg


I too am working with the 45 Super in a G-21. My primers look like these after firing. Isn't this considered primer flattening? I am using Winchester Primers. I have been shooting 8.5 gr of Power Pistol with 230 XTP and see this. Is this normal? Should I use a different primer. I am using the reduced power striker spring, 24# Wolff recoil spring with their full length uncaptured guiderod, an a 6" KKM barrel. I have not cronographed this so I do not know what velocity I am getting. Would love to get near 1200 fps if it is feasable. I have also had some issues with feeding when I went up to 9.5 gr PP. I need to try Vaq's fix with the double mag springs.......I had been thinking of something like that but hadn't had time to try it. I have ordered some extra power Wolff mag springs but havn't received them yet. Seems that might not be enough spring unless I put a Wolff with a stock mag spring. So much to try, so little time. It seems we really need a 45 Super club.:wavey:

I have read and reread this thread several times. I even have it on my Favorites tab. This is the most info I have found at any one place for the 45 Super period. It needs to be more accessable so other can find it. I tripped over it doing a google search...and I am a GT member!

RWBlue
06-17-2013, 08:36
My primers look like these after firing. Isn't this considered primer flattening?

It is hard to say the way the light is in the photo. But if I were to guess, I would say yes.

If in doubt, work up some light loads and look at those primers.

This being said, I don't think this is a good measure for 45 Super loads in Glocks.

SDGlock23
06-17-2013, 18:49
It is hard to tell with that lighting, but as far as it being flattened, yes it's flattened a small amount but not badly. I don't generally have an issue with a little bit of flattening, but I've yet to have any loads exhibit severe flattening. Here's a pretty good example of a truly flat primer:

http://www.massreloading.com/images/flattened.jpg

The middle is flatter than the one on the left, but the one on the right is FLAT. Plus some primers are softer than others and may exhibit this sooner than others.

Your goal of 1200 fps with a 230gr XTP should be no problem with Power Pistol. You mentioned you had some issues at 9.5gr, which are probably similar to the issues I had when I shot .45 Super from a standard 4.6" KKM.

I got the comped barrel to help slow down the slide speed and it's definitely helped. 9.8gr PP was getting me right at 1175 fps (230gr) from my 5" comped KKM, so with an extra inch you should be there, and then some, that is if you can get your slide slowed down a bit. The same amount of Longshot (9.8gr) got me 1230 fps from the 5" KKM. If you run across some Longshot you might want to give it a try, it should get you 1200 fps at maybe a little over 9 grains.

You are right, there aren't very many sources AT ALL for .45 Super data out there, and it's good you found this!

RWBlue
06-18-2013, 05:49
http://www.massreloading.com/images/flattened.jpg


Good article.
http://www.massreloading.com/reading_pressure_signs.html

Hondo341
06-20-2013, 01:41
That was a good article.

Hondo341
06-21-2013, 02:53
Anybody tried the 200gr XTP on hogs? It should do fine.....if it is as tough as the 230gr XTP. I have always preferred 230 for a 45 auto but if the 200gr XTP will do then I could push it to 1200 fps and shoot a bit flatter that the 230. Anyone have accuracy differences between 200 vs 230 gr XTP? Inquiring minds want to know!

RWBlue
06-21-2013, 12:32
Anybody tried the 200gr XTP on hogs? It should do fine.....if it is as tough as the 230gr XTP. I have always preferred 230 for a 45 auto but if the 200gr XTP will do then I could push it to 1200 fps and shoot a bit flatter that the 230. Anyone have accuracy differences between 200 vs 230 gr XTP? Inquiring minds want to know!

Although I am sure I gel tested the 200 and 230gr XTP years ago, I do not remember the findings.

What I will say is that bullets are designed to function at specific velocities, when you take them out of their normal range you get interesting results.

dougader
06-21-2013, 12:58
I'd rather use a hardcast slug like the 265 and 275 grain WFN bullets listed earlier. Bullets designed for 45 auto velocities very well may just come apart at increased velocities and not penetrate the way you need for tough animals like hogs, elk and black bear.

Hondo341
06-22-2013, 06:54
I have been thinking of a WFN hardcast. But hogs aren't THAT tough to kill. I used the 240gr XTP out of a muzzleloader several times. I just was curious about the 200gr XTP.

RWBlue
06-22-2013, 11:40
I have been thinking of a WFN hardcast. But hogs aren't THAT tough to kill. I used the 240gr XTP out of a muzzleloader several times. I just was curious about the 200gr XTP.

Because I don't have any particular memory of that bullet, I "think" it will do ok, but I would suggest shooting some wet packed newspaper just in case I forgetting a spectacular failure or they have changed the bullet (like they have done before).

dougader
06-22-2013, 19:42
Which 240 grain XTP is the question. The 44 mag version is built to handle 44 mag velocities. The 45 caliber 240 XTP is a mag version built to handle 454 Casull velocities.

The 45 caliber 200 grain xtp is built for what, maybe 900 - 1100 fps? All I'm saying is that if you run this bullet at 45 Super velocities, say 1300 fps, it may come apart and not penetrate like you want on those hogs.

Hondo341
06-23-2013, 05:44
That make perfect sense. The 230gr .451 xtp is what I have been shooting so far. Going to test some hard cast pretty quick.

RWBlue
06-23-2013, 08:53
Which 240 grain XTP is the question. The 44 mag version is built to handle 44 mag velocities. The 45 caliber 240 XTP is a mag version built to handle 454 Casull velocities.

The 45 caliber 200 grain xtp is built for what, maybe 900 - 1100 fps? All I'm saying is that if you run this bullet at 45 Super velocities, say 1300 fps, it may come apart and not penetrate like you want on those hogs.

As much as you encourage him to go with a heavy revolver bullet, I caution against it.

The revolver bullets are designed for faster velocities than I could get with the 45Super. So rather than getting a JHP, it is like having a FMJ bullet. Don't get me wrong it produced a nice .451 hole, but I could have done the same with a 45ACP FMJ.

dougader
06-23-2013, 18:44
I'm actually saying a hardcast slug with a fat meplat, like the 265 and 275 bullets posted above, may be the better choice.

A light 45 hollowpoint may just come apart, and under-penetrate. Like you say, a heavy jhp may not open. An fmj is more likely to turn on big game, again giving less than ideal penetration. IMO, a WFN or WLN would be the better bullet on big game.

Hondo341
06-24-2013, 05:28
I will be trying a .451 WFN hardcast 250gr. But I havn't given up on the 230 XTP. I wouldn't think 1175 fps would be pushing it too awful hard.

SDGlock23
06-25-2013, 18:14
If I had to choose a JHP it would be the 230gr XTP. I've loaded the 200gr XTP up to around 1300 fps, which was too fast as I figured it would be. It shed quite a bit of weight and penetration wasn't so good. A 230gr XTP around 1150-1200 fps would be just the ticket for a JHP bullet in the Super, and should penetrate well.

Just like the other guys have said, hardcast would be the best option. I'm still waiting on my 300gr hardcasts to come in, but I can play with the new 10mm in the meantime.

RWBlue
06-25-2013, 18:30
I have never had a love for hard case in a semi-auto. The bullet profile is just like a FMJ and at handgun velocities the lead stays in the FMJ.

I might as well go FMJ or go to a heavy JHP which doesn't open.

SDGlock23
06-25-2013, 19:49
I have never had a love for hard case in a semi-auto. The bullet profile is just like a FMJ and at handgun velocities the lead stays in the FMJ.

I might as well go FMJ or go to a heavy JHP which doesn't open.


Well about the only thing negative that I've noticed about the hardcasts I've shot through my comped KKM is that they soot up the front something awful. The advantages I see though are that the hardcasts do have a better profile in terms of WFN type bullets, and their heavier weight increases penetration.

Now if I were to use a FMJ .45, I'd opt for the Hornady FMJ FN, which has the best profile of the FMJs. As for heavy JHPs, they can open up, just don't use any designed for 454 velocities or they won't.

A 240 XTP Mag would be a poor choice, but the 250gr XTP is a fine choice as it opens up nicely and penetrates deep moving along at near 1,200 fps muzzle velocity. The 250gr Gold Dot works very well too in the Super.

dougader
06-25-2013, 22:14
I guess that's what I'm trying to say here. An fmj doesn't have the same profile as a WFN hardcast bullet. The fmj has the profile of a LRN/RNL, however you want to call it.

If you check in with big bore handgun hunters they purt near universally tout the SWC Keith and/or WFN/WLN/LFN bullet profiles for hunting big game.

The 230 and 250 xtp's are what I would choose if I felt the need for a jhp bullet. The 250 Gold Dot is what I'd use for SD and smaller deer. For hogs, elk and black bear I'm choosing the WFNGC bullet.

IME the 265 WFNGC from Beartooth is surprisingly accurate. I noticed this when chronographing loads. I wasn't even shooting for group size and noticed the bullets cutting a ragged hole at 15 yards.

SDGlock23
08-09-2013, 08:10
I got my Beartooth 300gr LFNGC in the mail yesterday after a good long wait. It looks like a profile that's going to work well. Hoping to get some loaded up and chronographed before much longer.

picketpin
08-09-2013, 08:35
I got my Beartooth 300gr LFNGC in the mail yesterday after a good long wait. It looks like a profile that's going to work well. Hoping to get some loaded up and chronographed before much longer.


Please keep us posted on your load development and testing.

Thanks,

James

happie2shoot
08-09-2013, 12:56
Please keep us posted on your load development and testing.

Thanks,

James

Yes please do

SDGlock23
08-09-2013, 14:22
Yeah I sure will, since I know some of what I come up with can also help out those who load for the Rowland. Here are just a few pics I snapped when figuring out what will fit in the KKM barrel. I tried 1.280" and it fits, so I'm going to stick with that just so I can get a little extra room for powder. Plus I loaded some at that OAL and they do fit in the G21 magazine.

I don't really have any must reach velocity goals, but I'd like to get close to 1,100 fps. Whether that ever happens I have no idea, but considering I got almost 1,150 from a 275gr, I think 1,100 is feasible. The meplat (flat nose) isn't quite as large as the 275gr Hunters Supply, but it's very close.

Here's the bullet beside one loaded to 1.280" in .45 Super brass:

http://imageshack.us/a/img833/4006/qfgv.jpg

Here is the BT 300gr LFNGC compared to the BT 200gr WFNGC. I love the 200gr WFGNC for the 10mm/warm .40's, but it looks small in comparison:

http://imageshack.us/a/img821/962/fbua.jpg

happie2shoot
08-09-2013, 22:46
Yeah I sure will, since I know some of what I come up with can also help out those who load for the Rowland. Here are just a few pics I snapped when figuring out what will fit in the KKM barrel. I tried 1.280" and it fits, so I'm going to stick with that just so I can get a little extra room for powder. Plus I loaded some at that OAL and they do fit in the G21 magazine.

I don't really have any must reach velocity goals, but I'd like to get close to 1,100 fps. Whether that ever happens I have no idea, but considering I got almost 1,150 from a 275gr, I think 1,100 is feasible. The meplat (flat nose) isn't quite as large as the 275gr Hunters Supply, but it's very close.

Here's the bullet beside one loaded to 1.280" in .45 Super brass:

http://imageshack.us/a/img833/4006/qfgv.jpg

Here is the BT 300gr LFNGC compared to the BT 200gr WFNGC. I love the 200gr WFGNC for the 10mm/warm .40's, but it looks small in comparison:

http://imageshack.us/a/img821/962/fbua.jpg

now you went and done it, I am going to have to try some
300gr lee gc in my 460 rowland

Hondo341
08-10-2013, 01:27
Those are some sexy looking bullets........I really need to get out more!!!

Did you go with the .451 or .452 diameter?

SDGlock23
08-10-2013, 07:00
.452" Hondo and yes they are fine looking boolits, almost pains me to shoot some of them...almost!

Hondo341
08-10-2013, 14:37
Thanks. I will have to get some.

SDGlock23
08-10-2013, 16:10
I just couldn't wait. Weather hasn't been too great, but I did get a short break to get out there and run a few of the 300gr loads and a few 275gr loads as well.

Here's the data I got today:

275gr Hunters Supply hardcast, 9.8gr 800x @ 1.260": 1,183 fps (17 fps ES!) 855 ft-lbs!!

300gr LFNGC, 9.8gr VV 3N38 @ 1.280": 1,056 fps (6 fps ES!)

300gr LFNGC, 8.5gr Longshot @ 1.280": 1,071 fps (13 fps ES!)

300gr LFNGC, 9.0gr 800x @ 1.280": 1,077 fps (6 fps ES!)

300gr LFNGC, 9.3gr 800x @ 1.270": 1,125 fps (8 fps ES!) 843 ft-lbs!!

Glock 21 Gen4 w/KKM 4 port barrel (5") was used along with a 24lb RSA. New Starline brass and CCI LP primers.

There ya have it. I'm not done with it by no means, but this is today's data. 3N38 was purely off the top of my head as I had no idea where to start with it. I feel it has more potential in the Super, but I needed a base line of where to start and I've got it.

I wasn't really expecting much to be honest, but I was surprised at some of the numbers I got. 800x really shined today, which is kind of funny since I've not messed with but on two prior occasions in the Super and didn't expect what I got out of it today.

I didn't really think I'd see 1,100 fps, but I did and I have to say I'm happy that I actually surpassed that with 1,125 fps today. Brass looked good, a tad bit of extractor rash on the case rim, but not much. No bulging in the excellent KKM barrel.

I don't want to leave out mentioning the 275gr load. I another load idea in mind for it, but getting near 1,200 fps with a 275 bullet is almost unreal, really.

What about recoil? Yeah there is recoil no doubt. Going from shooting some 230gr @ 870 fps to a 275/300gr load above is noticeable. When you shoot the heavier bullets, the recoil gets noticeably more pushy. No function issues however!

800x got my attention today, and now I already have some 255gr Beartooth WFNPB hardcasts loaded up ready to go as well as some 250gr XTPs, just to see what 800x has to say about these. If the weather permits I hope to run some tomorrow, Lord willing.

happie2shoot
08-10-2013, 17:08
you are my HERO, thanks for the info.

Many moons ago I was shooting some RCBS 325gr gc .458 bullets
sized down to .452 out of a 454 with a 45ACP cylinder in it.

Was using wc-820/ h-108/ aa#9 powder, could not get enough
powder in it to get a clean burn, was 1125fps with a 7.5'' barrel.

SDGlock23
08-11-2013, 18:00
I would like to add a few more, got a chance to play with 800x and some 250/255gr bullets today. So I brought out the Chrony, put it on the tripod, leveled it all up and ran some test loads to make sure it's reading correctly. I'm pleased...

Gen4 G21 w/KKM 4 port compensated barrel and 24lb RSA. New Starline .45 Super brass and CCI LP primers.

250gr Hornady XTP, 10.8gr 800X @ 1.190": 1,256 fps (6 fps ES!) 876 ft-lbs!

255gr Beartooth WFNPB, 10.8gr 800x @ 1.170": 1,261 fps (5 fps ES!) 900 ft-lbs!

I never did mess with 800x much prior and now I wish I had! Over the past few days it's been very consistent and has turned the .45 Super into quite the powerhouse. The beautiful thing is, not only are the energy numbers high, but the bullets are heavy.

This is .44 Magnum class performance. I'm not saying it's the equal of it because it isn't, but what I'm saying is, Remington, Federal and Winchester all offer .44 Magnum 240-250gr loads that are slower than my 250gr loads and with less energy than all 3 of my heavy .45 Supers (250-255gr/275gr/300gr). Hornady offers a 300gr .44 that lists 1150 fps (as does Federal), and I'm getting 1125 fps with a 300gr .452" from my .45 Super. Not better than the .44, but in the same general class for sure.

Brass looked good and the KKM comped barrel helped I'm sure, and even still recoil was there. I'm thinking if I could own one Glock, what would it be? My G21 would be it, it does everything very well, from target .45's, the ability to shoot all the good JHP defense bullets, and then I can take it out and let it roar with the .45 Super.

happie2shoot
08-11-2013, 22:43
So now I will need some 800x or are you going to try AA#9 and
maybe go faster.

SDGlock23
08-12-2013, 08:26
So now I will need some 800x or are you going to try AA#9 and
maybe go faster.

Well I have some AA9 but to be honest, I've never warmed up to it. Well, not yet at least.

It may do a great job in the .45 Super, but I think my issue with it (so far) is that it takes a lot of powder and so far in the 10mm and .40 I've not got very good numbers at all using it, even with over book max charges. I know it's a slow burning powder, but it takes a lot of it, and the performance I've seen so far has disappointed me a little.

However, I will have to look into at least giving it a try in the Super, it may change my mind about the powder.

vaquero aleman
08-12-2013, 13:45
What is the lightest weight bullet that you would load, in 45 Super? I read, quite often, that the 10mm 135gr is a preferred weight, but I don't see people talk about a light weight 45 round.

Actually what got me curious is 40 Super loads with a 135gr. Couldn't 45 Super be loaded in a similar manner? I have read about a 45 caliber 165gr bullet, but what would be the lightest load in .45?

Michael Rye
08-12-2013, 18:18
What is the lightest weight bullet that you would load, in 45 Super? I read, quite often, that the 10mm 135gr is a preferred weight, but I don't see people talk about a light weight 45 round.

Actually what got me curious is 40 Super loads with a 135gr. Couldn't 45 Super be loaded in a similar manner? I have read about a 45 caliber 165gr bullet, but what would be the lightest load in .45?

I would be a little bit wary of either a 165gr or a 185gr in a 45 Super load. It would be alright if the bullets used were designed to function at those velocities. I just don't know if anything that light in 45 cal is designed for those speeds.

SDGlock23
08-12-2013, 18:21
I'm pretty sure a 165gr is the lightest JHP I've ever seen in a .45. I've seen 150-155gr hardcasts in .45 cal, but I think 165 is about it in JHP and honestly I don't know if they're available to reloaders.

That pretty much leaves us with the 185gr JHP. Rowland claims 1500 fps for 185gr, and I know it's been beat in the ground somewhat, but to me that's too fast. The 185gr .451" has slightly better sectional density than the 135gr .400" (.130 vs .121), but both lack in that dept.

Concerning the 135gr .400", I know that even at 1,300 fps (typical .40 S&W velocity), the bullet is already fragmenting somewhat. When you you jump up from 500 ft-lbs to 900 ft-lbs, nearly doubling the energy, the bullet is going to nearly explode on contact, resulting in poor penetration although it would be nicely explosive on vermin.

Same story with the 185gr, you go from 500+ ft-lbs to almost 1000 ft-lbs. If there was a bullet that would take those velocities and would be able to make use of those 900+ ft-lbs that would be great, but there isn't.

So to answer your question, yeah you can rock out a 185gr from a Super/Rowland at high speed, but I find it pointless. If it's just for fun, or small critter control fine. I would keep pretty much all .45 ACP designed JHP's to at or below 1,200 fps, just because that even at that speed, they're on the brink of too fast.

I guess that's why I'm liking the heavier .45 Super bullets. The 250gr XTP I loaded to over 1,250 fps has nearly 900 ft-lbs of energy and the good thing is, the bullet can handle it, as it's rated for up to 1,500 fps per Hornady. If one could get ahold of some 165gr .45 JHP's it would be fun at least to see what speeds could be achieved if nothing else :)

Michael Rye
08-12-2013, 18:31
Good post, SD!

I am inclined to agree, a 45 Super load work-up with 165gr pills would be interesting. I have a hunch though there would be some serious bullet integrity issues.

happie2shoot
08-12-2013, 19:36
Well I have some AA9 but to be honest, I've never warmed up to it. Well, not yet at least.

It may do a great job in the .45 Super, but I think my issue with it (so far) is that it takes a lot of powder and so far in the 10mm and .40 I've not got very good numbers at all using it, even with over book max charges. I know it's a slow burning powder, but it takes a lot of it, and the performance I've seen so far has disappointed me a little.

However, I will have to look into at least giving it a try in the Super, it may change my mind about the powder.

I would use CCI 350 with AA#9

SDGlock23
08-12-2013, 19:47
Yeap you snuck your post in before I finished typing mine, but it looks like we agree on the use of lighter weight bullets. There would be bullet integrity issues for sure, since the 165gr .451" has about the same sectional density as a 100gr .355" (used in 380's). Putting a 100gr 380 ACP bullet in a 357 Sig would be about like putting a 165gr .45 in a Super/Rowland. Fun if you're trying to explode a melon or a rabid coon, but little value on anything much larger. Quite often less (velocity) is more (penetration), and I think the 165gr, while too light for my tastes, is better off in use in the slower .45 ACP.

SDGlock23
08-12-2013, 19:51
I would use CCI 350 with AA#9

That would make sense Happie, since with all that powder a little more oomph in the ignition might not hurt. I may give it a try before long.

As you had mentioned a few posts back, I would likely run out of room for powder before I ran into pressure problems with AA9. I know I tried it in .40 and it's just too slow really, and even with the 10mm it was getting hard to seat the bullet due to the compression of the powder.

vaquero aleman
08-12-2013, 20:25
Well, hopefully the 185 grain XTP that Underwood loads to 1300 fps will hold up, since I carry those on occasion. I shot a few mags of them to check out my YHM comp but I was at a range so picking up the frags was out of the question. I reckin I would rather go with a 250 grain XTP myself, but I was just curious, considering people here make such a big noise about the lighter .40 rounds. But I do appreciate the response.

SDGlock23
08-13-2013, 08:06
If I had to venture a guess, I'd say the 185gr .45 @ 1,300 would act similar to a 135gr .40 at the same speed, with the advantage that it's an XTP, so while it might shed a little lead, it shouldn't be a whole lot. That's one of the things I like about the XTP, it may shed a little lead from the mushrooming part of the bullet, but the whole of the bullet stays intact from my experiences.

Oh yeah, you had asked if a 250gr XTP was good for 1200 fps in another thread, I never saw your question until the other day, but yes it's good for up to 1500 fps. I can attest that at 1250 fps the penetration is nice and deep and expansion is nice as well.

Cycletroll
08-13-2013, 11:10
http://www.midwayusa.com/product/183162/barnes-tac-xp-bullets-45-acp-451-diameter-185-grain-hollow-point-lead-free-box-of-40
??? maybe???

SD, good thoughts on bullet weight. I've driven 135's in .401 guns and its pointless. Heavier bullets just work better. 240 XTP in 44 mag at 1250-1350 just hammers elk so the 250 XTP in Super/Rowland at ~1250 will do the same. Also heavier bullets shed velocity much slower than the hyper rounds.

BTW, your findings on IMR 800x mirror mine. I've loaded it in Super/Rowland and heavy .357 Sig and had the most accurate loads I've ever shot out of pistols. It has high load density, long pressure curve, and burns clean.
I have 800x XTP loads in both the Super and Sig that put three rounds under an inch at 30 yards often two are touching.

vaquero aleman
08-13-2013, 12:07
Yeh, I'm really Jones'n for a re-loading kit now. And my first load that I am planning is for some Rowland brass, 250gr XTP's/Hunter's supply cast and 1200fps out of my 4 3/8" KKM barrel.

SDGlock23
08-13-2013, 20:04
http://www.midwayusa.com/product/183162/barnes-tac-xp-bullets-45-acp-451-diameter-185-grain-hollow-point-lead-free-box-of-40
??? maybe???

SD, good thoughts on bullet weight. I've driven 135's in .401 guns and its pointless. Heavier bullets just work better. 240 XTP in 44 mag at 1250-1350 just hammers elk so the 250 XTP in Super/Rowland at ~1250 will do the same. Also heavier bullets shed velocity much slower than the hyper rounds.

BTW, your findings on IMR 800x mirror mine. I've loaded it in Super/Rowland and heavy .357 Sig and had the most accurate loads I've ever shot out of pistols. It has high load density, long pressure curve, and burns clean.
I have 800x XTP loads in both the Super and Sig that put three rounds under an inch at 30 yards often two are touching.

Good points on the heavier bullets, there's a lot of advantage to using them. I did notice using 800x how clean it burns which is something I hadn't really noticed until now. I believe what you say about accuracy, and while I wasn't so much shooting for accuracy the other day, it's consistency leads me to think you're right on the money.

picketpin
08-14-2013, 07:48
Good points on the heavier bullets, there's a lot of advantage to using them. I did notice using 800x how clean it burns which is something I hadn't really noticed until now. I believe what you say about accuracy, and while I wasn't so much shooting for accuracy the other day, it's consistency leads me to think you're right on the money.

I have been following your load development and I'm very impressed. You have surpassed most published .460 Rowland velocities with the .45 Super. I have been trying to find some load data and or pressure information on 800X for the .460 but have not been able to find any but yours. Are you just working up from Hodgdons .45 ACP info? Just curious because I have been working with Longshot and AA#7 and 255 cast bullets and Quickload has me maxed out at about 1200 fps with AA#7. My loads look fine and fired cases show no obvious pressure signs, my ES's are running 2-3X what yours are with 800X. May be me but the accuracy doesn't seem to be at the level you are reporting either... Any way I am interested in trying 800x if it ever shows up around here again..
James

SDGlock23
08-14-2013, 09:15
I have been following your load development and I'm very impressed. You have surpassed most published .460 Rowland velocities with the .45 Super. I have been trying to find some load data and or pressure information on 800X for the .460 but have not been able to find any but yours. Are you just working up from Hodgdons .45 ACP info? Just curious because I have been working with Longshot and AA#7 and 255 cast bullets and Quickload has me maxed out at about 1200 fps with AA#7. My loads look fine and fired cases show no obvious pressure signs, my ES's are running 2-3X what yours are with 800X. May be me but the accuracy doesn't seem to be at the level you are reporting either... Any way I am interested in trying 800x if it ever shows up around here again..
James


Thank you James. One thing is for sure and it's that there isn't much data for the Rowland that I've seen out there, even for the .45 Super for that matter. I have seen a few spots of data, but I cannot recall ever seeing any using 800x with the Rowland and I think only on one occasion did I find some 800x data for the Super. It was on one of the 1911 sites and there was a big list of data someone had compiled, so that's where I got my 9.5gr 800x from.

As you know Hodgdon only shows Longshot for the Rowland, which is odd but I suspect they just haven't put too much time or effort into it. Their .45 Super data can be classified as a joke, since what data they do show makes the .45 Super out to be no different than a .45 ACP +P, and they don't even load it that warm.

Starline touts their Super brass to be pretty tough, and I can say from what I've loaded for the Super that it is tough brass. The first time I used 800x in the Super was with a 230gr FMJ, using 9.5gr of it which was giving me a little shy of 1,100 fps. It was consistent but I wasn't too impressed with the velocity at the time, which was odd because 800x usually is right near the top in terms of performance, but in this case Power Pistol and Longshot were faster so I'm sure that's why I decided to work up on past 9.5gr.

It's possible 1200 fps with a 255gr hardcast could be max for AA7, but I can't really say either because AA7 is the one AA powder (well besides AA2) that I don't have any of. There is some AA7 and other 460 Rowland data over on http://www.realguns.com/loads/460Rowland.htm but no 800x data. What kind of 255gr hardcast are you using? I've got a couple of different styles, one is just a lot longer than the other.

SDGlock23
08-14-2013, 09:23
Yeh, I'm really Jones'n for a re-loading kit now. And my first load that I am planning is for some Rowland brass, 250gr XTP's/Hunter's supply cast and 1200fps out of my 4 3/8" KKM barrel.

To feed your 460R I think that would be a good idea. If you didn't want to invest too heavily in it, you could buy a decent single stage and a few odds and ends and you'll be up and running in no time!

picketpin
08-14-2013, 09:51
It's possible 1200 fps with a 255gr hardcast could be max for AA7, but I can't really say either because AA7 is the one AA powder (well besides AA2) that I don't have any of. There is some AA7 and other 460 Rowland data over on http://www.realguns.com/loads/460Rowland.htm but no 800x data. What kind of 255gr hardcast are you using? I've got a couple of different styles, one is just a lot longer than the other.

Thanks for the reply, I may try to push the AA#7 a little harder to see if it settles in. I have the Realguns Load data, it is a good guide, I have found his info to be accurate and useful for sure.

I have been using several hard cast bullets in the 255 gr range. Two from RimRock bullets, their 255 CSWC at .452 (supposed to be .451 but they don't measure out at that), their 255 RNFP cowboy, and Missouri Bullets 255CSWC as well as Dardsas Casts' 255 SWC. The Missouri bullets are probably on the soft side for Rowland velocities. I shoot a lot of .45 Colt so most of these I had on hand. I will eventually go to one of Bear Tooth bullets WFN's for my final backcountry bear load, but I will probably stick with the 255's for every thing else.
Thanks for the info.
James

happie2shoot
08-14-2013, 10:27
Thanks for the reply, I may try to push the AA#7 a little harder to see if it settles in. I have the Realguns Load data, it is a good guide, I have found his info to be accurate and useful for sure.

I have been using several hard cast bullets in the 255 gr range. Two from RimRock bullets, their 255 CSWC at .452 (supposed to be .451 but they don't measure out at that), their 255 RNFP cowboy, and Missouri Bullets 255CSWC as well as Dardsas Casts' 255 SWC. The Missouri bullets are probably on the soft side for Rowland velocities. I shoot a lot of .45 Colt so most of these I had on hand. I will eventually go to one of Bear Tooth bullets WFN's for my final backcountry bear load, but I will probably stick with the 255's for every thing else.
Thanks for the info.
James

Get one of these the size you need and you can size down
bullets that are too big,,
http://leeprecision.com/bullet-casting/lube-and-sizing-kit/

Some times I have had to buy the smaller size and open it
up to the size I needed, have sized .458 jacked and cast bullets down to .451.

SDGlock23
08-14-2013, 18:35
Thanks for the reply, I may try to push the AA#7 a little harder to see if it settles in. I have the Realguns Load data, it is a good guide, I have found his info to be accurate and useful for sure.

I have been using several hard cast bullets in the 255 gr range. Two from RimRock bullets, their 255 CSWC at .452 (supposed to be .451 but they don't measure out at that), their 255 RNFP cowboy, and Missouri Bullets 255CSWC as well as Dardsas Casts' 255 SWC. The Missouri bullets are probably on the soft side for Rowland velocities. I shoot a lot of .45 Colt so most of these I had on hand. I will eventually go to one of Bear Tooth bullets WFN's for my final backcountry bear load, but I will probably stick with the 255's for every thing else.
Thanks for the info.
James

The .45 Colt is one of my favorites so I guess that's why I have an infatuation with the heavy hardcasts, but I guess there are worse things in life :) I would agree with you about the Missouri bullets, I have their 250gr RNFP and I've used it some in the Super, but even in the Ruger Bisley I don't like to drive those very fast because of their bhn.

I have quite a few Lasercast 255gr SWC hardcasts from years back when I bought a bunch. They're a nice bullet, but the profile doesn't work as well as the Beartooth 255gr in the Super since it digs a little deep into the case. The Beartooth 255 WFNPB is very short, the bullet is ~.610" long, much shorter than any other 250/255gr bullet I've seen. Plus the meplat is very large, and that's always a good thing.

Cycletroll
08-14-2013, 19:16
I've mentioned this before but just so people are clear:
The reason Rowland brass is a bit longer is so that high pressure cartridges don't end up in a gun chambered for .45 ACP that doesn't have good chamber support/weak barrel and/or not enough recoil spring or a comp to control the substantial slide velocity imparted by these levels of loads.

Although there is some variation in the strength of various .45 brass it is not the brass that is the limiting factor in load development. I have loaded standard Winchester .45 ACP brass to Rowland levels and there was no differences in perceived stress to the brass as compared to Starline .45 Super brass.

No doubt one would not like a Rowland level load in standard brass to get into a gun with an unsupported chamber or weak recoil system. One can load Rowland level loads in good brass (Starline, Winchester, Remington etc) to be shot in a pistol chambered in .45 ACP which has a strong fully supported chamber and appropriate recoil management system including a compensator. Obviously this should only be done by experienced loaders and loads should be worked up progressively and cautiously.

One other note: There is quite a bit of difference in case volume of various ACP brass. For example Remington +p brass has a much thicker web (to provide case head strength for firing the slightly higher pressure +p loads in unsupported chambers a la Glock 21). Loads developed in one brand/type of brass should not be casually substituted in other brass.

Also if you do have a Rowland chamber, firing standard length ACP cases in the longer Rowland chamber is really not such a good idea as you are then expecting the extractor to maintain correct headspace. I personally prefer to have a standard length chamber and deal with making sure my hyper loads don't find their way into the wrong gun.

SDGlock23
08-19-2013, 18:18
Good points Cycletroll. I did read about a guy who was using ACP brass loaded to with 460R data in a Ruger Blackhawk. Given the extra thickness of the chamber in an aftermarket Glock barrel compared to the cylinder walls in a Blackhawk .45, I would say one probably could load ACP brass to Rowland levels if the case support was good enough. With that said however, having stronger .45 Super brass is never a bad thing.

I also agree that it's not a great idea to fire a .45 ACP/Super in a 460 Rowland barrel, since as you mentioned the headspacing is totally different. It's just like those who swear up and down it's safe to shoot .40's in a 10mm. I've tried it to see if it works, and it does, but I don't like the idea at all which is why I have a conversion barrel.

Cycletroll
08-25-2013, 09:47
So, I'm trying to figure out my hunting projectile for the Godzilla Glock. Any thoughts experiences would be appreciated.
I'm looking for a load for finishing and emergency shots on elk, deer, antelope, cougar, and possibly black bear. I've had great success with .44 240gr XTP@1350. Last year my hunting partner dropped an injured elk@ 80yds with this load from a 6.5" 629 equipped with red dot.

The problem is the 230 .451 XTP doesn't seem tough enough. Yesterday I shot one at 1300fps into milk jugs. Dramatic explosion but only dented the back of jug number three and total jacket core separation. The jacket and remaining core weighed 156gr.
I need more penetration than this. I realize that water is tough on cup/core bullets. Anybody ever shot the 230gr XTP into a critter and had better penetration and weight retention?
How about the Speer Gold Dot? I think lead is softer and jacket thinner in the GD but it is bonded.
I've been trying to find Siera and Nosler 230/240 JHP's but can't find any. Experiences?
I think the 250XTP should work better but can't find any of those either.
Next week will be working up 185gr Barnes XPB @ ~1500. This should give me the range/trajectory etc I need. Will definitely penetrate enough but may not impart the hydrostatic energy dump in 1st 6-20" that I would like.
I can always fall back on the 275gr Hunters Supply WFN. It will sail thru any critter I hunt but doesn't put quite the "hit" on critters to anchor them like a .44 cal 240gr@1350 does.

Finally please don't turn this into a "use a .44 mag/.454 Casull, .460 etc" thread. I shoot my comped Glock Super/Rowland well, it is far lighter than any of my large bore magnum revolvers, has higher capacity and with red dot I can reliably hit steel chickens at 180yds. I want to dial a tough expanding bullet that will hold together in the 1250-1500fps range that the Rowland is capable of. Please offer helpful thoughts/experiences if you can :)

SDGlock23
08-25-2013, 14:50
Good thoughts for sure. Concerning the Gold Dots, depending on how fast you drive them is what's going to make the difference. The 230gr Gold Dot and even the 250gr Gold Dot don't seem to hold together very well beyond 1200 fps, but up to that point they do rather well. I do think the 250gr version is a little tougher than the 230gr version, but not much. I've not messed much with the 200gr Gold Dot, which might be little tougher, but with heavier bullet options available I don't see a pressing need to experiment with it. Even though it's bonded, a Gold Dot will shed it's pedals in a hurry if you push them too fast.

You did mention it, but I've recently been on the hunt for some 240gr Sierra JHP bullets. Their OAL is a little shorter than a 250gr XTP, and along with being slightly lighter weight I think it's possible to achieve 1300 fps with it. I feel that velocity, or somewhere around that would be very good for that JHP profile.

Hopefully you can find some 250gr XTP's because that's about the best JHP design going out there that will also hold up .45 Super/460 Rowland velocities. Hornady rates it for up to 1500 fps I believe, so it's got what it takes to stay intact at higher speeds. I put one from the .45 Super into some jugs, the ones doing 1250+ fps and it penetrated to the fifth jug and expanded to around .65-.70". Good penetration on water jugs is usually a sign that it will punch deep into game as well.

Two others that I haven't tried is the Nosler 250gr JHP and the Speer 260gr JHP, both should work fairly well and be tough enough to handle 800+ ft-lbs of energy. But with that said, still try and grab some 250gr XTP's when if you get the chance. Good luck on that 185gr Barnes, I'd be interested in seeing how those turn out.

Cycletroll
08-25-2013, 17:57
SD,

Thanks for the input. I did manage to find some 250 XTP's. Should have them before the end of the week. Your result of 5 jugs and .65-.70 in water correlates exactly to what I'm looking for.
I've driven the 200 Gold Dots a bit. Are ideal at 1100 (.85), start looking like the infamous octopus meteorite at about 1200.

I'm going to do wetpack tests with all of these once I get a good cross section but I suspect that the 250 XTP will do perfectly.

BTW, the 260 Speer has a long bearing surface, seats deep in the case (bulging it a bit) and doesn't expand at all at 950-1000. It really seems like a bullet best suited to .454 Casull velocities.

I'll let you know how the 185 Barnes work out.

Roger G23
08-25-2013, 20:23
Good thoughts for sure. Concerning the Gold Dots, depending on how fast you drive them is what's going to make the difference. The 230gr Gold Dot and even the 250gr Gold Dot don't seem to hold together very well beyond 1200 fps, but up to that point they do rather well. I do think the 250gr version is a little tougher than the 230gr version, but not much. I've not messed much with the 200gr Gold Dot, which might be little tougher, but with heavier bullet options available I don't see a pressing need to experiment with it. Even though it's bonded, a Gold Dot will shed it's pedals in a hurry if you push them too fast.

You did mention it, but I've recently been on the hunt for some 240gr Sierra JHP bullets. Their OAL is a little shorter than a 250gr XTP, and along with being slightly lighter weight I think it's possible to achieve 1300 fps with it. I feel that velocity, or somewhere around that would be very good for that JHP profile.

Hopefully you can find some 250gr XTP's because that's about the best JHP design going out there that will also hold up .45 Super/460 Rowland velocities. Hornady rates it for up to 1500 fps I believe, so it's got what it takes to stay intact at higher speeds. I put one from the .45 Super into some jugs, the ones doing 1250+ fps and it penetrated to the fifth jug and expanded to around .65-.70". Good penetration on water jugs is usually a sign that it will punch deep into game as well.

Two others that I haven't tried is the Nosler 250gr JHP and the Speer 260gr JHP, both should work fairly well and be tough enough to handle 800+ ft-lbs of energy. But with that said, still try and grab some 250gr XTP's when if you get the chance. Good luck on that 185gr Barnes, I'd be interested in seeing how those turn out.
I've been reading and pretty impressed with you guys and your knowledge in this interesting subject. Let me just ask a simple question because I'm new to all this and still learning. Is the 45 Super out of the G21 pretty accurate at 25 yards? 50 yards? (all other things considered, shooter skill, etc)
I'm debating whether to modify for 45 Super or 40 Super. I just somehow have a feeling the 40S is more accurate because of the smaller projectile but I could be completely wrong.

SDGlock23
08-26-2013, 09:17
SD,

Thanks for the input. I did manage to find some 250 XTP's. Should have them before the end of the week. Your result of 5 jugs and .65-.70 in water correlates exactly to what I'm looking for.
I've driven the 200 Gold Dots a bit. Are ideal at 1100 (.85), start looking like the infamous octopus meteorite at about 1200.

I'm going to do wetpack tests with all of these once I get a good cross section but I suspect that the 250 XTP will do perfectly.

BTW, the 260 Speer has a long bearing surface, seats deep in the case (bulging it a bit) and doesn't expand at all at 950-1000. It really seems like a bullet best suited to .454 Casull velocities.

I'll let you know how the 185 Barnes work out.

I suspected as much with the 200gr Gold Dot. I didn't set high expectations for it since it's .45 ACP designed bullet. Works great with the ACP, maybe not so much with more velocity behind it. I did run a 200gr XTP to around 1350 and it held together somewhat well, a few small shards of lead came off it but otherwise intact and large expansion for an XTP. Penetration was 2 jugs...ouch. Explosive but certainly not something I would want for field work.

Thanks for the heads up on the 260gr Speer also. I'll just narrow my search down for the 240gr Sierra, and you never know, a box of them might just show up somewhere...eventually.

Cycletroll
08-26-2013, 09:57
I suspected as much with the 200gr Gold Dot. I didn't set high expectations for it since it's .45 ACP designed bullet. Works great with the ACP, maybe not so much with more velocity behind it. I did run a 200gr XTP to around 1350 and it held together somewhat well, a few small shards of lead came off it but otherwise intact and large expansion for an XTP. Penetration was 2 jugs...ouch. Explosive but certainly not something I would want for field work.

Thanks for the heads up on the 260gr Speer also. I'll just narrow my search down for the 240gr Sierra, and you never know, a box of them might just show up somewhere...eventually.

Ya, based on what I've found I think the 250 XTP is going to be the best balance of expansion penetration and weight. Glad I found some :)
I have found anecdotal claims that the Nosler and Sierra JHP's are not that tough but the 150gr Nosler .40's I pushed to 1400 did quite well so who knows?

Cycletroll
08-26-2013, 10:13
I've been reading and pretty impressed with you guys and your knowledge in this interesting subject. Let me just ask a simple question because I'm new to all this and still learning. Is the 45 Super out of the G21 pretty accurate at 25 yards? 50 yards? (all other things considered, shooter skill, etc)
I'm debating whether to modify for 45 Super or 40 Super. I just somehow have a feeling the 40S is more accurate because of the smaller projectile but I could be completely wrong.

Hey Roger, thanks for the interest.
As to accuracy: my personal experience after handloading for Glocks and pistols in many calibers for many years is that the .45 cal Glocks and the .357 Sig Glocks are the most inherently accurate. In general Glocks are not match grade guns but will shoot better than most people can hold.
I have had three shot groups off the bench at 30yds of 3/4" with both my G21 and my G31 with heavy for caliber high pressure hand loads.
I've never loaded .40 Super but am turned off on the caliber for several reasons: 1st, there are very few bullet designs that will tolerate the velocity the necked .40 caliber cases are capable, 2nd: I've been told it is a cartridge that has a lot of muzzle blast. It's a bottleneck cartridge that essentially does what 10mm does in a more laborious to load case. 3rd: For a G21 platform the .45 Super/Rowland just stomps the crap out of those puny little .401 bullets :) LOL

I use the Super/Rowland platform out of a Glock for a tough, lightweight field gun for hunting. I may end up in the position to need a finishing shot on deer, elk, antelope, cougar, or black bear. I feel much more comfortable lobbing .45 cal bullets in the 230-300gr weight for those size animals. If one graphs the ballistics of the Rowland vs pretty much any other lightweight pistol round it hits a lot harder at 100-200 yds than any of them. Heavy bullets do more work at lower velocities.
I am in the process of milling the slide on my G21 to install a Trijicon RMR red dot so that I can reliably make hits past 100 yards. Using a 3MOA dot on a S&W 629 I can make reliable hits at 150yds; I have no doubt I will be able to do the same with the G21.
Hope this helps.

SDGlock23
08-26-2013, 11:04
I've been reading and pretty impressed with you guys and your knowledge in this interesting subject. Let me just ask a simple question because I'm new to all this and still learning. Is the 45 Super out of the G21 pretty accurate at 25 yards? 50 yards? (all other things considered, shooter skill, etc)
I'm debating whether to modify for 45 Super or 40 Super. I just somehow have a feeling the 40S is more accurate because of the smaller projectile but I could be completely wrong.

I find the G21 to be highly accurate as a whole, but as you know, peoples skill levels are different and someone else may not find it as accurate. I would say if you're familiar enough with the trigger system on a Glock to be accurate with it, then you will most likely find the G21 to be a sufficiently accurate for hunting applications. If you were spend the extra cash to get something like a fitted BarSto barrel (expensive) then that would also give you an edge in accuracy, although in stock form I think it works well as is.

As for which is more accurate, the .40 Super or .45 Super, I'm clueless! I have no doubt the .40 Super is accurate, but I don't know that it would have an advantage over the .45 Super in that regard or not. Unless you ran into some issues of a barrel not stabilizing a heavier bullet, I doubt you could tell much difference between them accuracy wise.

My two cents is that the .40 Super is an excellent cartridge, but maybe too good for it's own good. The downside, to me, of the .40 Super is that it relies on .40 S&W bullets and in turn drives them way too fast for optimal performance. Take UW's .40 Super 135gr JHP for example, even at 500 ft-lbs (.40 S&W) the bullet is already fragmenting. So what make a person think that at almost twice that energy (900 ft-lbs) the same bullet is going to do anything but essentially explode on contact? If there were good.400" JHP bullets to withstand the velocity the .40 Super dishes out, that would be great but they don't exist. The 220gr .40 Super would penetrate deeply, but a .45 hardcast is going to penetrate through and through and still cut a bigger hole.

The advantage that the .45 Super and 460 Rowland has is their ability to utilize .45 cal revolver bullets, which are designed to handle the energies that the .45 Super and 460 Rowland can dish out. This is what I think give them the distinct advantage over the .40 Super.

I hope others chime in with their opinion as well, I'd like to hear it.

SDGlock23
08-26-2013, 16:06
I was just thinking that if the .40 Super had actually been a .41 Super and designed to shoot .410" bullets that it would work much better. .41 Magnum bullets such as 170gr JHPs, 210gr XTP's, and 230-265gr hardcasts could be used and would be able to withstand the velocity/energy the cartridge offers.

I like the idea of a ".41 Super" 210gr XTP at ~1400 fps better than the .40 Super 200gr XTP at 1400 fps. Instead of a 165gr at 1600 fps you could have a 170gr at 1600 fps, or in place of a 220gr at 1350 you could have a 230gr at 1350, or maybe a 265gr hardcast at ~1200-1250 fps.

Roger G23
08-26-2013, 16:18
I was just thinking that if the .40 Super had actually been a .41 Super and designed to shoot .410" bullets that it would work much better. .41 Magnum bullets such as 170gr JHPs, 210gr XTP's, and 230-265gr hardcasts could be used and would be able to withstand the velocity/energy the cartridge offers.

I like the idea of a ".41 Super" 210gr XTP at ~1400 fps better than the .40 Super 200gr XTP at 1400 fps. Instead of a 165gr at 1600 fps you could have a 170gr at 1600 fps, or in place of a 220gr at 1350 you could have a 230gr at 1350, or maybe a 265gr hardcast at ~1200-1250 fps.
I'm going to be shooting these as soon as I receive my LWD 6'' 45-40S conversion barrel, 24#Wolff RSA and Wolff ex.pwr. mag springs for two G21 10 round mags. Hopefully, these hard cast rounds are tough enough to withstand the fast flight.

Actually, the more I think about it...may be I should just keep my G21 as a dedicated 460R/45Super/45ACP gun. Because I can imagine constantly breaking the locktite seal on the 460R barrel threads, just to put in a LWD 45-40Super barrel to shoot 40 Super, might damage the threads over time. What do you think?

http://www.underwoodammo.com/40Super220grainHardCastFlatNosetboxof50.aspx

Roger G23
08-26-2013, 21:23
Hey Roger, thanks for the interest.
As to accuracy: my personal experience after handloading for Glocks and pistols in many calibers for many years is that the .45 cal Glocks and the .357 Sig Glocks are the most inherently accurate. In general Glocks are not match grade guns but will shoot better than most people can hold.
I have had three shot groups off the bench at 30yds of 3/4" with both my G21 and my G31 with heavy for caliber high pressure hand loads.
I've never loaded .40 Super but am turned off on the caliber for several reasons: 1st, there are very few bullet designs that will tolerate the velocity the necked .40 caliber cases are capable, 2nd: I've been told it is a cartridge that has a lot of muzzle blast. It's a bottleneck cartridge that essentially does what 10mm does in a more laborious to load case. 3rd: For a G21 platform the .45 Super/Rowland just stomps the crap out of those puny little .401 bullets :) LOL

I use the Super/Rowland platform out of a Glock for a tough, lightweight field gun for hunting. I may end up in the position to need a finishing shot on deer, elk, antelope, cougar, or black bear. I feel much more comfortable lobbing .45 cal bullets in the 230-300gr weight for those size animals. If one graphs the ballistics of the Rowland vs pretty much any other lightweight pistol round it hits a lot harder at 100-200 yds than any of them. Heavy bullets do more work at lower velocities.
I am in the process of milling the slide on my G21 to install a Trijicon RMR red dot so that I can reliably make hits past 100 yards. Using a 3MOA dot on a S&W 629 I can make reliable hits at 150yds; I have no doubt I will be able to do the same with the G21.
Hope this helps.
Thanks. That does help a lot. I just decided tonight to order my 460 Rowland conversion kit! I'll return the LWD 45 threaded barrel and LWD compensator I was going to shoot 45 Super out of.
I'm going 460 Rowland!

Cycletroll
08-27-2013, 16:46
Roger, if you're going to hand load no need to return what you have. You can load to Rowland levels in .45 Super brass. The internal (powder capacity) dimensions are the same. Then you can also shoot standard .45 ACP in your barrel.
The only reason to buy a Rowland chambered barrel is if you're going to be buying factory ammo only. Frankly that really limits your choices and is quite expensive.

The Lone Wolf barrel and comp along with 24# recoil spring is what I use in my G21. Works great!

Roger G23
08-27-2013, 19:43
Roger, if you're going to hand load no need to return what you have. You can load to Rowland levels in .45 Super brass. The internal (powder capacity) dimensions are the same. Then you can also shoot standard .45 ACP in your barrel.
The only reason to buy a Rowland chambered barrel is if you're going to be buying factory ammo only. Frankly that really limits your choices and is quite expensive.

The Lone Wolf barrel and comp along with 24# recoil spring is what I use in my G21. Works great!
I am going with factory ammo only. Currently, I'm not a reloader. I will save all 45 Super brass though as I continue to learn and perhaps will be in the future.
The 460Rowland intrigues me as it is truly .44Magnum power. My research is showing I can shoot 45Super and 45ACP out of the 460R barrel. (weaker 45acp may require a lighter spring) I like these options. Once, I discovered 460R ammo comparably priced to 45Super, I was interested. You're right, 460R set-up will initially cost about $125 more than LWD barrel, LWD comp, Wolff RSA set-up...but going with the most powerful and "Ammo Test" YouTube videos demonstrate how incredibly effective that 460 comp is! He said it doesn't blow stuff back in your face. (unlike LWD comp. according to him)

RWBlue
08-27-2013, 20:48
The 460Rowland intrigues me as it is truly .44Magnum power.

Not really. Then again, I reload and my 44mag is at full 44mag levels.

Cycletroll
08-28-2013, 07:13
Not really. Then again, I reload and my 44mag is at full 44mag levels.

True! I load for .44 mag too and I can push heavier stuff faster than with Rowland (especially if you are shooting a Ruger-I prefer Smiths and am quite happy with the power level)

Truth is that Rowland is mid level .44 mag comparable and in a lighter, higher capacity platform.


Roger- you can shoot regular dimension .45 in a Roland barrel; doesn't mean you should. The ACP and Super case are shorter which means they won't headspace on the case mouth in a Rowland barrel but rather relies on the extractor to maintain headspace. Reliability can suffer and more importantly bullet jump can cause excessive leading which can elevate pressures which can cause kaboom. If you are going to shoot the shorter cases in your Rowland barrel I highly recommend you keep it to ACP pressure levels with jacket bullets. Lead hard cast at Super levels could cause problems. It's probably not as risky as shooting .40 in a 10mm barrel (much higher pressure round with worse setback problems) but it's still not ideal.

Roger G23
08-28-2013, 11:54
True! I load for .44 mag too and I can push heavier stuff faster than with Rowland (especially if you are shooting a Ruger-I prefer Smiths and am quite happy with the power level)

Truth is that Rowland is mid level .44 mag comparable and in a lighter, higher capacity platform.


Roger- you can shoot regular dimension .45 in a Roland barrel; doesn't mean you should. The ACP and Super case are shorter which means they won't headspace on the case mouth in a Rowland barrel but rather relies on the extractor to maintain headspace. Reliability can suffer and more importantly bullet jump can cause excessive leading which can elevate pressures which can cause kaboom. If you are going to shoot the shorter cases in your Rowland barrel I highly recommend you keep it to ACP pressure levels with jacket bullets. Lead hard cast at Super levels could cause problems. It's probably not as risky as shooting .40 in a 10mm barrel (much higher pressure round with worse setback problems) but it's still not ideal.
Thank you so much! In all my research thusfar, I have not come across these important facts. Much obliged. :thumbsup:

happie2shoot
08-30-2013, 18:59
This is a heavy 44 load.
https://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=54

I cast a longer one of these for Rug. RH AND SRH and the Dan Wesson,
.5'' nose.

John Watson
08-30-2013, 23:01
Already having the Lone Wolf long slide and long barrel for my G21, I decided to get another guide rod and the 24lb spring. Ordered some of BB 255gr cast from Midway to try it out. I also have the 10mm conversion barrel for this gun and the .22 conversion. Should make another nice addition to the set up to be able to shoot the .45 Super as well. This gun has also had a grip reduction from Robar.
http://i63.photobucket.com/albums/h127/jwatson34076/20121218_113139_zps6ab243fe.jpg (http://s63.photobucket.com/user/jwatson34076/media/20121218_113139_zps6ab243fe.jpg.html)

http://i63.photobucket.com/albums/h127/jwatson34076/LoneWolfLongSlideG21002.jpg (http://s63.photobucket.com/user/jwatson34076/media/LoneWolfLongSlideG21002.jpg.html)

picketpin
08-31-2013, 11:44
Already having the Lone Wolf long slide and long barrel for my G21, I decided to get another guide rod and the 24lb spring. Ordered some of BB 255gr cast from Midway to try it out. I also have the 10mm conversion barrel for this gun and the .22 conversion. Should make another nice addition to the set up to be able to shoot the .45 Super as well. This gun has also had a grip reduction from Robar.
http://i63.photobucket.com/albums/h127/jwatson34076/20121218_113139_zps6ab243fe.jpg (http://s63.photobucket.com/user/jwatson34076/media/20121218_113139_zps6ab243fe.jpg.html)

http://i63.photobucket.com/albums/h127/jwatson34076/LoneWolfLongSlideG21002.jpg (http://s63.photobucket.com/user/jwatson34076/media/LoneWolfLongSlideG21002.jpg.html)
Nice John, That is a Very versatile setup you have there! Nicely fitted to the case too!
James

vaquero aleman
09-05-2013, 12:48
Does anybody have stats for the pressure levels for the typical 45 Super loads, such as 185 grain @ 1300 fps and 230 grain @ 1100 fps? I know that the listed maximum pressure for 45 Super is 28,000 psi.

happie2shoot
09-06-2013, 06:05
hope this helps

pressure levels for the 45acp,super and 460r,

http://www.handloads.com/articles/default.asp?id=41


45 ACP, all bullet weights

http://www.handloads.com/loaddata/default.asp?Caliber=45%20ACP&Weight=All&type=Handgun&Order=Powder&Source=Hodgdon


45 ACP +P, all bullet weights

http://www.handloads.com/loaddata/default.asp?Caliber=45%20ACP%20%20P&Weight=All&type=Handgun&Order=Powder&Source=Hodgdon


460 Rowland, all bullet weights

http://www.handloads.com/loaddata/default.asp?Caliber=460%20Rowland&Weight=All&type=Handgun&Order=Powder&Source=

SDGlock23
09-10-2013, 09:38
With deer season coming upon us, I'm wondering what to take into the woods this year. I didn't get anything last year, and only got to hunt part of one day. A guy who when with us fell and broke his leg so that cut things short. I've been going over my data, and I think I'm going to take the .45 Super out this year.

I narrowed it down initially to either a 230gr XTP at roughly 1200 fps (Hornady rates them for up to 1250 fps and I have a good Power Pistol load that hovers right around 1200 fps), 275gr Hunters Supply hardcast at 1175-1200 fps, a 250gr XTP at 1250+ or the 255gr Beartooth at 1250+. The wider meplat, heavy bullet weight and good velocity is why I think the 255gr BT will be just the ticket :) In 10mm I have a good recipe for a 200gr WFNGC Beartooth that will consistently average 1270 fps from the G20, but it's hard to pass up a 255gr .452" going the same speed.

I've got some loaded up and Lord willing I hope to go out this coming weekend and check for any accuracy issues, although I don't expect any. I have a few more recipes loaded up to try also. I was torn between the G21 .45 Super or the G20 10mm, or the G23 with some warm loads...decisions decisions.

Cycletroll
09-10-2013, 13:51
With deer season coming upon us, I'm wondering what to take into the woods this year. I didn't get anything last year, and only got to hunt part of one day. A guy who when with us fell and broke his leg so that cut things short. I've been going over my data, and I think I'm going to take the .45 Super out this year.

I narrowed it down initially to either a 230gr XTP at roughly 1200 fps (Hornady rates them for up to 1250 fps and I have a good Power Pistol load that hovers right around 1200 fps), 275gr Hunters Supply hardcast at 1175-1200 fps, a 250gr XTP at 1250+ or the 255gr Beartooth at 1250+. The wider meplat, heavy bullet weight and good velocity is why I think the 255gr BT will be just the ticket :) In 10mm I have a good recipe for a 200gr WFNGC Beartooth that will consistently average 1270 fps from the G20, but it's hard to pass up a 255gr .452" going the same speed.

I've got some loaded up and Lord willing I hope to go out this coming weekend and check for any accuracy issues, although I don't expect any. I have a few more recipes loaded up to try also. I was torn between the G21 .45 Super or the G20 10mm, or the G23 with some warm loads...decisions decisions.

I'd vote for the 250XTP in case you hit bone or a shoulder. The 230XTP is kinda fragile at those speeds.
You might also consider a Barnes XPD @1400ish. It's a total lazer and I'm getting 1"groups @20yds off the hood of my truck. Tough bullet that always expands and I can't help but think that with much higher speeds it will create a big hydrostatic "hit" and then the petals will fold back and the post will sail through a couple more feet of critter.
It's what I'll be carrying in my G30 on my antelope hunt for finishers.

SDGlock23
09-11-2013, 11:38
Here are above mentioned 4 loads loaded up next to each other. L-R it's the 230gr XTp, 250gr XTP, 255gr WFNPB and the 275gr Hunters Supply. I like my 300gr load but I don't think I need quite that much bullet on deer.

http://imageshack.us/a/img694/7087/8gz2.jpg


I will look into that XPD bullet you mentioned Cycletroll, I've been intrigued by the all copper bullets but have yet to take the bait and try any. What weight XPB are you shooting?

Roger G23
09-13-2013, 20:19
Perhaps more evidence of why .45ACP fans might want to step it up to the .45 Super.
Check it out:
Handgun Intermediate Barrier (Frying Pan) Penetration Test (380 ACP, 9mm, 45 ACP, ect..) - YouTube

SDGlock23
09-14-2013, 16:05
Few more, too nice out today to not shoot a little :)

Gen4 G21 with KKM 4 port compensated barrel (5" bbl), using stock Gen4 RSA. Shooting through a Chrony F1 tripod mounted and leveled up. Distance approx 10'. Temperature around 65-68 degrees, very low humidity.

I want to note that in comparing it to a 24lb Gen3 RSA, the stock Gen4 RSA unit felt like it offered more resistance.

DO NOT USE IN STOCK GLOCK BARREL!! My KKM barrel has fantastic case support, the stock Glock barrel doesn't.
230gr Hornady XTP, 10.0gr Power Pistol @ 1.240": 1,201 fps (7 fps ES!)

250gr Speer Gold Dot, 9.8gr 800x @ 1.215": 1,164 fps (16 fps ES) That's 752 ft-lbs

250gr Hornady XTP, 11.0gr 800x @ 1.190": 1,266 fps (5 fps ES!) That's 890 ft-lbs

255gr Beartooth WFNPB, 11.0gr 800x @ 1.170": 1,273 fps (11 fps ES) That's 917 ft-lbs

Brass looked fine on all loads, and all loads were very consistent. I wanted to keep the 230gr XTP and 250gr Gold Dot at or south of 1,200 fps. I feel that any more than that is too fast for these bullets. I could use a little more in the 250gr Gold Dot, but it does very well at the above velocity so it's no big deal. 10gr would likely get around 1175-1180 or so, roughly.

Recoil is there with the 250gr XTP and 255gr WFNPB load, but the comp helps out a lot I'm sure. Hardcasts soot up the muzzle quicker than the jacketed loads, but that's expected.

SDGlock23
09-16-2013, 08:33
Ran some 255gr WFNPB and 250gr XTP for accuracy today, both 11gr of 800x. No malfunctions or anything, but of the two I was more impressed with the accuracy of the 250gr XTP. The 255gr didn't group bad or anything and there wasn't any key-holing which is good, but the 250gr XTP grouped great, dead center and several rounds literally in the same hole at 17-18yds offhand. I had to adjust my rear sights just slightly to get them centered, it was initially hitting slightly right. They were hitting just below POA so it's a nicely flat shooting load as well.

So it looks like the 250gr XTP is the go-to load this year! It expands nicely and penetrates deep, and XTP's are known for being very consistent, which was seen not only in the low extreme spreads, but the accuracy as well.

NoJoy
09-16-2013, 23:49
Good write up SD! Just so were on the same page, when you say Gen 4 with stock RSA you mean the stock dual recoil factory spring right? Just add the KKM barrel with comp and your good to go shooting Supers.
Did the gun function 100% with the KKM barrel/comp and stock dual recoil spring combo?
Thx-

SDGlock23
09-17-2013, 08:55
Yeap that's right nojoy, the stock Gen4 dual spring recoil assembly. Function was 100% as well. Early on in messing with the Super I had a few instances, but back then I wasn't using a ported barrel and I believe the slide speed was just too fast for the magazine to catch up to.

The ported KKM barrel slows it down nicely and and I've not had any issues since. I'm very pleased with the KKM 4 port overall.

If I had it to do over again, I'd consider getting their G21 threaded barrel, with .578x28 threading (what they call suppressor threading) and buy something like a Carver 4 port compensator. It's similar to the KKM comp except it's got more porting (even though they're both called 4 port, the Carver has 10 ports) so the recoil should be even less.

If you buy the comped barrel straight from KKM, be warned that they use a different threading (5/8x32) which it makes finding another comp much more difficult. The only thing with the Carver port is I'm not sure it works with Gen4 models, maybe it does, maybe it doesn't. Here's the comp:

http://www.bb-enterprise.biz/item179194.ctlg

This is just a thought though, I really am pleased with the KKM comp. Recoil is still stout with the warmer loads, so I could only imagine what it would be like with no porting at all!

NoJoy
09-17-2013, 13:32
Hey thks for this info^^^. I don't reload for now, so I will be shooting Underwood, Buffalo Bore and Doubletap SMC ammo. I think your hand loads are warmer than any of their stuff, so if the stock G-4 21 with the KKM & comp can handle your loads 100%, then shooting a mix of the above ammo should work too. :)

NoJoy
09-17-2013, 14:24
http://yhm.net/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=2_7&products_id=118

YHM was mentioned in another post, but this comp may also work with a Lone Wolf barrel. Say a 5" barrel with the .578-28 threading. It's only 3 ports though so not sure if it as effective as the KKM comp.

SDGlock23
09-19-2013, 09:42
Yes that one should work too, Vaquero Aleman has one of this if I'm not mistaken, here's a recent post of his:

http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/showpost.php?p=20628788&postcount=23

I'm talking with a guy right now who makes comps and offers any kind of threading you want. I'm seeing if he can't make something like the KKM comp, just longer and with more ports in it. Here's some of his comps and he will do custom work too:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/SAS-Tactical-Muzzle-Brake-for-rifle-or-pistol-/130855446945

vaquero aleman
09-19-2013, 12:09
http://i646.photobucket.com/albums/uu183/picketpin/IMGP0071_zps7d5ee953.jpg

This is "Picketpin"s rig. He has it set up for .460 Rowland, and he might be able to give a better perspective on the YHM comp than I can, for the G21.

vaquero aleman
09-19-2013, 12:19
One of the reasons that I decided on the YHM comp is "baffles". A compensator has ports for the escape and directional distribution of gas but also baffling to give the gas something to push against initially. The comp that 460rowland.com uses with their kit has two baffles and two large ports. The KKM comp has two baffles, two large top ports and two smaller side ports. The YHM has three baffles and three large vertical ports. I am, by no means, an engineer, but I believe that the baffling is key in reducing slide speed and, in turn, recoil. Anyway, JMO.

picketpin
09-19-2013, 16:43
I must have missed the question about the YHM comp on a G21... I had a Rowland kit and this combination I put together myself. The combination of the "glock polishing" 460 barrel and YHM comp controls the 460 much better than the Rowland set up did. I am able to go to a 20#RSA and it feets and ejects fine(8-10 feet), even with SWC bullets. I think the YHM comp with Jam nut is much more solid and will stand up to more shooting than other comps I have seen including the Rowland. I hope to play with some BTB WFN designs at some point... Too many projects..
james

NoJoy
09-19-2013, 23:15
Who makes the barrel for the above picture and what is the barrel length (minus comp)?
Thx-

NoJoy
09-19-2013, 23:17
Also is that YHM comp about an inch long?

picketpin
09-20-2013, 06:17
Lone Wolf, rechamberd by Glock Polishing, 5.2", 1.75".
That is if this is "the above picture"??
http://i646.photobucket.com/albums/uu183/picketpin/IMGP0069_zpsa925dad1.jpg (http://s646.photobucket.com/user/picketpin/media/IMGP0069_zpsa925dad1.jpg.html)
james

vaquero aleman
09-20-2013, 07:48
Lone Wolf, rechamberd by Glock Polishing, 5.2", 1.75".
That is if this is "the above picture"??
http://i646.photobucket.com/albums/uu183/picketpin/IMGP0069_zpsa925dad1.jpg (http://s646.photobucket.com/user/picketpin/media/IMGP0069_zpsa925dad1.jpg.html)
james

By the by, how and did you solve your problem with the comp coming loose?

vaquero aleman
09-20-2013, 08:36
Also is that YHM comp about an inch long?

My 29 with the 4 3/8" barrel and YHM comp makes the OAL about 9". The 29 stock is just under 7".

NoJoy
09-20-2013, 16:33
^^^ Ok the comp with the adaptor is about 2" in length-thx.
I think the comp on the KKM barrel adds an inch to overall length if I remember-

NoJoy
09-20-2013, 16:34
:dunno:Lone Wolf, rechamberd by Glock Polishing, 5.2", 1.75".
That is if this is "the above picture"??
http://i646.photobucket.com/albums/uu183/picketpin/IMGP0069_zpsa925dad1.jpg (http://s646.photobucket.com/user/picketpin/media/IMGP0069_zpsa925dad1.jpg.html)
james

Yep thats the one. Thanks for the photo. What was the re-chambering for? (unless you mean for the 460 Rowland)

NoJoy
09-20-2013, 16:36
^^^After further review I answered my own question ;)

SDGlock23
09-21-2013, 07:45
I going to see if SAS will make me something similar to this, with larger side ports though


http://imageshack.us/a/img823/783/1m42.jpg


I like the standard KKM comp in design, but it needs more porting with warm .45 Super loads, the unit KKM offers is good for standard .45 ACP and surely helps with warmer loads, but I know more can be had and this place is the only place I've found that will work with KKM's 5/8x32 comp threading.

Oh yeah, I'm wanting some set screws in the comp too. I don't know why some don't use them, beats having to always glue down the comp before shooting it.

picketpin
09-21-2013, 14:01
By the by, how and did you solve your problem with the comp coming loose?


Well, I have had some other projects and life going on so I haven't been back to the range with my G21 460 yet. I did as you said got heavy with the wrenches and added some blue locktite. All my other shooting I went pretty easy on tightening the combination together. As we know the Rowland is a handfull.

james

SDGlock23
09-23-2013, 07:13
I broke down and bought a box of 185gr XTP's. I ordered them online, so they aint' here yet but I'll have something new to play with for a little bit.

vaquero aleman
10-04-2013, 12:27
Firing Underwood 45 Super from my Glock 29.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=W6Mjk5Ryj_s

SDGlock23
10-04-2013, 21:16
Cool vid aaquero aleman, there's a chance that had you been shooting two handed you might not have had the stoppages that you did. Nice setup BTW.

SDGlock23
10-04-2013, 22:12
I got around to playing with some of the 185gr XTP's I had bought not too long ago. In general, I don't really care too much about light for caliber bullets, but then again, sometimes it's just fun to play around. I've now got all three .45 ACP designed XTP's, the 185gr, the 200gr and the 230gr.

The hollow cavities on them are all a little different, basically the 185gr is the most shallow of the three, and the 230gr is the deepest of the three. As you might expect, the 200gr is kind of in the middle, but all three are different. Hornady also rates the 185gr .45 XTP as being as tough as their 180gr .40 XTP, they claim both are good for 1450 fps.

I didn't just load up XTPs, but I also didn't have any 800x data for any of the XTPs, something I wanted to change. The only three powders I used today were Power Pistol and Longshot, but mainly 800x. Same setup as always, Gen4 Glock 21 with KKM 4 port compensated barrel, using stock RSA.

All brass is new Starline brass primed with CCI LP primers. Temperature around 80 degrees and relatively humid. Because there isn't much data for the .45 Super, let alone "warm" .45 Super, here's the deal: ONLY USE IN GUNS PROPERLY SETUP TO HANDLE WARM .45 SUPER. Also, drop the loads a little bit and work up to them in your gun since your setup is likely different from mine. Velocities listed are averages.

185gr XTP, 12.0gr Power Pistol @ 1.240": 1,420 fps

200gr XTP, 11.5gr Longshot @ 1.250": 1,393 fps

I'll get around to trying out some Longshot with 185gr, and for what it's worth the same amount of Longshot has always given higher velocity than Power Pistol in the Super, though PP is usually a bit more consistent.

Next are some 800x loads.

185gr XTP, 15.0gr 800x @ 1.260": 1,568 fps (1,010 ft-lbs)

200gr XTP, 14.0gr 800x @ 1.260": 1,455 fps (940 ft-lbs)

230gr XTP, 12.0gr 800x @ 1.250': 1,298 fps (860 ft-lbs)

275gr Hunters Supply, 10.5gr 800x @ 1.270": 1,190 fps (865 ft-lbs)

300gr Beartooth LFNGC, 9.8gr 800x @ 1.270": 1,147 fps (876 ft-lbs)

All of the 800x loads were very consistent, the 185, 230, and 275gr loads had single digit extreme spreads. A few notes about the loads, with the 200gr XTP, 13.8gr averaged faster (1470 fps) but wasn't consistent at all, with an ES of over 60 fps. I could have got more out of the 230gr XTP, but 1300 fps is plenty fast for a bullet Hornady rates for up to 1250 fps.

I didn't run any 250/255gr loads, mainly because I'm pleased with them running ~1,270 fps/900 ft-lbs, and trying to squeeze out a few more fps won't make any difference in performance.

I don't know really what purpose a 185gr JHP at 1570 fps serves, but it was fun to shoot...and loud.

SDGlock23
10-06-2013, 13:21
Curious as to how the 185gr XTP holds up, especially since despite having worse sectional density than the 180gr XTP (.400"), Hornady rates them both capable of withstanding 1450 fps. So I shot one loaded with 12.0gr Power Pistol (avg. velocity of 1,420 fps) in some 1 gal. water jugs. Not scientific at all, but water acts like a hard barrier and is usually tough on bullets, and typically if it holds together in water it will likely hold together well in game. It decimated the first two jugs, and stopped in the fourth.

It held together just fine. I think its smaller hollow cavity helps it to hold together better than the deeper cavity 200gr XTP and 230gr XTP, both of which Hornady rates at up to 1250 fps. Despite it's not so good sectional density it really performed well, only one little sliver of lead came off. What's also somewhat interesting is that earlier I had shot a 180gr XTP, also rated for 1450 fps, out of my G23 w/KKm barrel using a load that averages 1,200 fps. It too stopped in the forth jug but shed a considerable amount of its weight in the process...so faster wouldn't really help matters (penetration) with that bullet.

I don't think the 185gr XTP is built for my 1570 fps Super loads, but it seems to hold up to 1400-1450 fps. I guess the point of this post is that it held together better than I thought it would, and penetrated fairly well too.

180gr .400 XTP @ ~1,200 fps:
http://imageshack.us/a/img812/295/cbyh.jpg


185gr .451" XTP @ ~1,420 fps:
http://imageshack.us/a/img22/9678/r3iy.jpg

Cycletroll
10-06-2013, 14:39
Good info SD.
BTW, I just ordered some Clear Ballistics Gel and will commence testing high end .45 Super/Rowland and .357 Sig/.40 loads in calibrated gel (may also throw in some bones, barriers, etc). Will post results as generated.

I'm really interested in balancing wound cavity with penetration for a woods carry so figured I better get some measurable data.

SDGlock23
10-07-2013, 08:35
I look forward to seeing your results Cycletroll, that should prove interesting!

vaquero aleman
10-15-2013, 12:57
Finally figured out this dagnab software. Couple of shots from my G29 shooting Underwood 45 Super. The first and second pic are actually the same 185gr round and the third is a 230gr:

http://i1163.photobucket.com/albums/q547/vaqueroaleman/4a30277d-1378-4c1b-92a0-7c6efa464ab8_zps72b9d885.jpg?t=1381892278

http://i1163.photobucket.com/albums/q547/vaqueroaleman/b8bf6d29-0e46-48d8-83e0-16e3556bad74_zps2f07f7df.jpg?t=1381892413

http://i1163.photobucket.com/albums/q547/vaqueroaleman/3e9f2639-2cac-4329-b7a5-ef879b64bc09_zpsa8fff6d6.jpg?t=1381895639

SDGlock23
10-17-2013, 16:05
Nice fireballs!

I have a small project I've got going on, two really. One I have a comp ready to be made that should provide more recoil reduction and slide speed reduction. I don't have it yet, but it's close.

Second, I'm going to fire lapp a few barrels, starting with the Ruger Bisley .45 Colt, but also I'm going to run some through my KKM .45 barrel. There are some definite accuracy gains to be had from doing this, but also a side effect seems to be additional velocity.

For the Ruger, I've got the cylinder throats reamed correctly, but I'm using Beartooth's fire lapping kit to take accuracy up a notch. From reading several articles on it, accuracy increase is sometimes substantial.

However I'm also intrigued on how it would work in making the KKM barrel I use for the .45 Super even more accurate. I was beginning to wonder if perhaps it would be a waste of time, but I found an interesting article and now I'm pumped to get this done to the KKM G21 bbl. I'm really wanting to run big hardcasts in it, and being more accurate is never a bad thing.

Here's an article on fire lapping four different .45 pistol barrels, and pay attention not only to the accuracy gain, but look at the velocity increase. I'm planning on doing my KKM .40 barrels and when I get a KKM 10mm barrel, on that too. Here's the article, I thought it was interesting:

http://www.beartoothbullets.com/tech_notes/archive_tech_notes.htm/63