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50 Cent
11-19-2011, 20:59
Would be interested in the LEO perspective on this article:

http://www.salon.com/2011/11/19/what_really_cleaned_up_new_york/

If you can get past the point that it was printed on Salon, an online publication
on par with Pravda :supergrin:. But they cover the entertainment world well and sometimes post interesting articles like the one above.

But not being an LEO I'm not sure how much is truth or fiction.

blueiron
11-19-2011, 21:34
Salon? Please. Salon is a joke at anything resembling objective story
telling, much less journalism.

Giuliani's and Kerik's efforts at the 'theory of broken windows' and quality of life issues has worked in NYC and elsewhere.

Bruce M
11-20-2011, 07:37
I skimmed through the article and it seemed to suggest that NYPD spent some time and resources concentrating on the worst areas and substantially increased narticotics enforcement concentrating on sellers. I do not think one factor alone reduces crime substantially over a long period, but rather multiple changes in policing, criminal justice and other social aspects. Here we were early in on the "shall issue" permits and our crime rate has gone down overall since then but I am not niave enough to think that is the sole reason fo crime reduction here.

seanmac45
11-20-2011, 08:43
I can lend some insight having served in the NYPD from 1982 through 2002. Two major forces and one minor drove the decline in crime in this city.

Although touched on in the article, the author really does not have a clue as to which was proportionally effective and the mechanics involved.


The single most influential engine that drove the decline was the innovation of COMPSTAT. Conceived and initiated by Bratton and Maples, this was the MOST powerful component of the crime reduction strategy. For the first time, Precinct Commanders were brought up to a podium before their superiors, their peers and even corporate American invitees and had their feet held to the fire for crime spikes. Men who had been in command for years without any serious form of accountability were suddenly made to defend their leadership and crime fighting skills. Many Precinct Commanders were summarily removed and replaced for poor performance or ineffective presentations and preparations for their appearance at the podium. This was a stunning change in the hierarchy of the NYPD. Previously, Precinct COís had been treated with an air of Papal Infallibility. Now, that protection was stripped away. The corporate American model of produce or die was introduced to modern policing.

The COMPSTAT staff had real time access to crime reports from the commands and a computerized modeling program that evaluated those reports and picked out trends and, most importantly repeatable, predictable patterns of criminal behavior. These patterns showed up across multiple commands, some even in different boroughs. Woe be unto the Commanding Officer who showed up at the podium and was told of a pattern in his Precinct that he and his staff had failed to detect prior to their presentation. Humiliation and possible removal were the order of the day. In itsí first few months there were some actual fistfights as men who were accustomed to being treated with deference and respect were now summarily chastised and derided for ineffective leadership. It definitely was interesting in the Compstat arena in those early times. Sort of like the Christians vs. the lions.


The second major driving force in the reduction of crime in NY was the overwhelming increase and proficiency of the Departmentís Narcotics Division. These were the grunt field troops of the battle on crime. We bulked up the borough modules to an incredible staffing level. It was not unusual to have multiple field teams working the same areas at the same times. Hell, one night one of my undercovers was soliciting a hooker to make an intro to a dealer for him, and as I was listening to the transmitter it became obvious to me that my undercover was soliciting someone elseís undercover. Sure as ****, Vice was out in my AO poaching and we almost had a serious confrontation erupt.

In some areas, (again determined by COMPSTAT) the ratio of Narcs to dealers was actually inverted, with more hunters being on the street than perps. Donít forget that as the COís of the Precincts were up at the podium standing right next to them were the COís of the narcotics units that covered those commands. Narcotics COís were just as much under the gun at COMPSTAT as were the uniform commanders.

Along with the old Street Crime Unit (which was disbanded after the Diallo shooting) narco rangers were the ones out there tossing the perps and putting the heat on the bad areas of the city. Dealers had to retreat and regroup. They became craftier in their trades, but so did we. It was an invigorating adrenaline rush to be involved in that cat and mouse game and those of us involved enjoyed it tremendously.


The third influence in the crime drop, and one you wonít read about in the liberal media but which was as incredibly effective was the advent of AIDS. That little virus did more good policing in this city than 100,000 cops could have accomplished with an unlimited budget. Itís no secret that the activities which were involved with the spread of that disease were the same activities that involved street crimes. Junkies using spikes were drug dealers, enforcers, burglars, robbery artists, con men and prostitutes.

As cops in NY we watched a whole generation of hard core animal perps wither away and die from the scourge of that infectious disease. Nature reared itsí head and the Darwinian absolute of survival of the fittest proved itself in the crucible of the criminal underworld of NYC.


When you put these three components together the results were nothing less than astounding. Neighborhoods became places where families walked freely after dark without fear of attack. Buildings were rehabbed and restored to lawful use. Businesses which had been driven away came back and flourished. The public, fortified and renewed by the improvements in their neighborhoods became unwilling to let things backslide and therefore became involved in policing through support, volunteerism, and, most importantly a renewed willingness to share information with the police about those who were committing crimes in their neighborhoods.


The cost to us was high. I went to too many Inspectorís Funerals. We lost some of our best, but their deaths were not in vain. It was an incredible change in the dynamic of a city and one that I am very proud to have been a part of.

merlynusn
11-20-2011, 09:17
Good posting Sean.

seanmac45
11-20-2011, 09:37
Salon? Please. Salon is a joke at anything resembling objective story
telling, much less journalism.

Giuliani's and Kerik's efforts at the 'theory of broken windows' and quality of life issues has worked in NYC and elsewhere.


Not to be confrontational, but PLEASE don't give Bernie Kerik any credit for anything in this city. He was a perp and a political hack appointee. He should have been collared back when he was the Commissioner of Corrections, but Giiuliani covered for him.

seanmac45
11-20-2011, 09:46
Good posting Sean.


Thank you, sir.

Denied
11-20-2011, 09:57
Good posting Sean.


+1:cool::cool:

glockbob
11-20-2011, 12:25
Is it possible that the increase in the cost of living also drove out a lot of the criminals?

I am not saying that NYPD hasn't done its part cleaning up the city. I wonder if some it can be attributed to the cost of an apartment in NYC:wow:

glockbob
11-20-2011, 12:35
Is it possible that the increase in the cost of living also drove out a lot of the criminals?

I am not saying that NYPD hasn't done its part cleaning up the city. I wonder if some it can be attributed to the cost of an apartment in NYC:wow:

seanmac45
11-20-2011, 12:45
Hardly....................

Ajon412
11-20-2011, 12:57
Good posting Sean.

You nailed it, Sean.....:thumbsup:

Bruce M
11-20-2011, 12:58
Is it possible that the increase in the cost of living also drove out a lot of the criminals?





I am gonna go way out on a limb here and guess that as long as there is Section 8, apartment costs are not going to drive away criminals.

Dragoon44
11-20-2011, 13:02
Great Post Sean, as usual.

:thumbsup:

P.S. I'm guessing "diversity" training didn't stick huh?

:rofl:

seanmac45
11-20-2011, 13:08
Thanks everyone!

It's easy to write when you enjoy the topic.

Great Post Sean, as usual.

:thumbsup:

P.S. I'm guessing "diversity" training didn't stick huh?

:rofl:


Let's just say that I opted out of that course in in-service training.

It's a good thing I retired. I wouldn't last five minutes in today's environment.

Dragoon44
11-20-2011, 14:05
Thanks everyone!

It's easy to write when you enjoy the topic.




Let's just say that I opted out of that course in in-service training.

It's a good thing I retired. I wouldn't last five minutes in today's environment.

You and me both Brother.

:rofl:

Dukeboy01
11-20-2011, 14:42
The third influence in the crime drop, and one you wonít read about in the liberal media but which was as incredibly effective was the advent of AIDS. That little virus did more good policing in this city than 100,000 cops could have accomplished with an unlimited budget. Itís no secret that the activities which were involved with the spread of that disease were the same activities that involved street crimes. Junkies using spikes were drug dealers, enforcers, burglars, robbery artists, con men and prostitutes.

As cops in NY we watched a whole generation of hard core animal perps wither away and die from the scourge of that infectious disease. Nature reared itsí head and the Darwinian absolute of survival of the fittest proved itself in the crucible of the criminal underworld of NYC.



You bring up a very interesting point here. I wonder how much of our national crime rate reduction over the last 20 years could be attributed to AIDS. The same demographics hit hardest by HIV in NYC were hit everywhere else in the country as well.

Now that the scourge of AIDS has retreated, more or less, I wonder if we can expect to see the crime rate rise over the next few decades. It would make for a very interesting study, not that anyone would ever have a chance to get funding to do it.

dano1427
11-20-2011, 15:05
We've had Compstat for several years, now, and I haven't seen any difference in criminal behavior/apprehension.

All it does, to a line officer like myself, is make us all miserable (crap rolls down hill), and generate a lot more paperwork and suck additional officers off their beats, where they should be all along.

The question that all the Compstat guru's can never answer: How can it predict random human criminal behavior?

It can't, of course, but is used, instead, to predict patterns, and then those in charge are held accountable for those patterns if they don't change.

seanmac45
11-20-2011, 15:53
Within the NYPD COMPTSAT produced astounding results. I don't know how large your department is or its' location. I would imagine that in a smaller setting it could be detrimental in the ways you mention.

However, in a department of 44,000 members with a city containing 8 million people, it proved to be an awesome tool for law enforcement.

seanmac45
11-20-2011, 15:55
You bring up a very interesting point here. I wonder how much of our national crime rate reduction over the last 20 years could be attributed to AIDS. The same demographics hit hardest by HIV in NYC were hit everywhere else in the country as well.

Now that the scourge of AIDS has retreated, more or less, I wonder if we can expect to see the crime rate rise over the next few decades. It would make for a very interesting study, not that anyone would ever have a chance to get funding to do it.


No funding and no way the liberals would let such information out in the public domain in the form of an official study.

Hell, people would say that it had been engineered and turned loose on the populace for just that reason.

Free Radical
11-20-2011, 16:27
Thank you for the very well written and educational post. Though this may be a little off topic I could not help but wonder as I read how much better our schools could be if somehow the incompetent and corrupt among our educators had their feet held to the fire.

fla2760
11-20-2011, 18:24
I can lend some insight having served in the NYPD from 1982 through 2002. Two major forces and one minor drove the decline in crime in this city.

Although touched on in the article, the author really does not have a clue as to which was proportionally effective and the mechanics involved.


The single most influential engine that drove the decline was the innovation of COMPSTAT. Conceived and initiated by Bratton and Maples, this was the MOST powerful component of the crime reduction strategy. For the first time, Precinct Commanders were brought up to a podium before their superiors, their peers and even corporate American invitees and had their feet held to the fire for crime spikes. Men who had been in command for years without any serious form of accountability were suddenly made to defend their leadership and crime fighting skills. Many Precinct Commanders were summarily removed and replaced for poor performance or ineffective presentations and preparations for their appearance at the podium. This was a stunning change in the hierarchy of the NYPD. Previously, Precinct CO’s had been treated with an air of Papal Infallibility. Now, that protection was stripped away. The corporate American model of produce or die was introduced to modern policing.

The COMPSTAT staff had real time access to crime reports from the commands and a computerized modeling program that evaluated those reports and picked out trends and, most importantly repeatable, predictable patterns of criminal behavior. These patterns showed up across multiple commands, some even in different boroughs. Woe be unto the Commanding Officer who showed up at the podium and was told of a pattern in his Precinct that he and his staff had failed to detect prior to their presentation. Humiliation and possible removal were the order of the day. In its’ first few months there were some actual fistfights as men who were accustomed to being treated with deference and respect were now summarily chastised and derided for ineffective leadership. It definitely was interesting in the Compstat arena in those early times. Sort of like the Christians vs. the lions.


The second major driving force in the reduction of crime in NY was the overwhelming increase and proficiency of the Department’s Narcotics Division. These were the grunt field troops of the battle on crime. We bulked up the borough modules to an incredible staffing level. It was not unusual to have multiple field teams working the same areas at the same times. Hell, one night one of my undercovers was soliciting a hooker to make an intro to a dealer for him, and as I was listening to the transmitter it became obvious to me that my undercover was soliciting someone else’s undercover. Sure as ****, Vice was out in my AO poaching and we almost had a serious confrontation erupt.

In some areas, (again determined by COMPSTAT) the ratio of Narcs to dealers was actually inverted, with more hunters being on the street than perps. Don’t forget that as the CO’s of the Precincts were up at the podium standing right next to them were the CO’s of the narcotics units that covered those commands. Narcotics CO’s were just as much under the gun at COMPSTAT as were the uniform commanders.

Along with the old Street Crime Unit (which was disbanded after the Diallo shooting) narco rangers were the ones out there tossing the perps and putting the heat on the bad areas of the city. Dealers had to retreat and regroup. They became craftier in their trades, but so did we. It was an invigorating adrenaline rush to be involved in that cat and mouse game and those of us involved enjoyed it tremendously.


The third influence in the crime drop, and one you won’t read about in the liberal media but which was as incredibly effective was the advent of AIDS. That little virus did more good policing in this city than 100,000 cops could have accomplished with an unlimited budget. It’s no secret that the activities which were involved with the spread of that disease were the same activities that involved street crimes. Junkies using spikes were drug dealers, enforcers, burglars, robbery artists, con men and prostitutes.

As cops in NY we watched a whole generation of hard core animal perps wither away and die from the scourge of that infectious disease. Nature reared its’ head and the Darwinian absolute of survival of the fittest proved itself in the crucible of the criminal underworld of NYC.


When you put these three components together the results were nothing less than astounding. Neighborhoods became places where families walked freely after dark without fear of attack. Buildings were rehabbed and restored to lawful use. Businesses which had been driven away came back and flourished. The public, fortified and renewed by the improvements in their neighborhoods became unwilling to let things backslide and therefore became involved in policing through support, volunteerism, and, most importantly a renewed willingness to share information with the police about those who were committing crimes in their neighborhoods.


The cost to us was high. I went to too many Inspector’s Funerals. We lost some of our best, but their deaths were not in vain. It was an incredible change in the dynamic of a city and one that I am very proud to have been a part of.

Perfectly stated Sean. The disbanding of the SCU was a mistake, and I concur re the AIDS epidemic and the interesting point of view you raise about its genesis.

50 Cent
11-20-2011, 21:49
I can lend some insight having served in the NYPD from 1982 through 2002. Two major forces and one minor drove the decline in crime in this city.




Awesome post - thats what I was looking for - the story from somebody actually doing the job, not sitting in the ivory tower.

dano1427
11-20-2011, 23:23
Within the NYPD COMPTSAT produced astounding results. I don't know how large your department is or its' location. I would imagine that in a smaller setting it could be detrimental in the ways you mention.

However, in a department of 44,000 members with a city containing 8 million people, it proved to be an awesome tool for law enforcement.

Or just not implemented correctly, nor the proper resources used correctly.

As for AIDS, I can't remember the last hard-core felon that I've buckled that HASN'T had HIV/AIDS or Hep-B.

seanmac45
11-21-2011, 05:02
The infection rate is still high, but the drug cocktails (legal) that they are on now actually extends their lifespan and keeps them functional. Makes a difference.