How many rounds do you REALLY need in a CCW? [Archive] - Glock Talk

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davetron
11-21-2011, 07:32
I'm a traditional 45 acp guy but my primary carry weapons are a G19 and a G23 because I felt like I needed the extra capacity. I also have a Kahr P9 and I've started to carry it more and more since I've put on a few lbs and it's easily the most comfortable. So i was thinking if I'm going to limit myself to 6-8 rds in my CC piece why not do it with a 45? (see how I'm rationalizing getting a G36).
Anyway, so I got to looking for stats, stories, urban legends of ACTUAL SD discharges an and I cant find any. Does anybody know any of this info? From what I glean from the news etc it seems like most people (civilians) whoe are involved in shootings it tends to be some kind of domestic and I have yet to read "local man attacked by band of wild gypsies and glock 19 with 15+1 saved his life". Any thoughts?

TrueGunNut
11-21-2011, 07:38
Just read on here somewhere that most sd situations involve ONE SHOT...

Travclem
11-21-2011, 07:41
You need as many as you need. There is no way to predict it, but I'd rather have too much than not enough.

samuse
11-21-2011, 07:42
Any thoughts?


1) It's 2011. Get over the 45ACP. There is no rational way to consider a Kahr or a Glock 36 superior or even equal to a Glock 19.

2) So it's gonna come down to: You can't keep yourself from getting fat, so youre gonna get a thinner gun to hold you over until you buy more jeans. :supergrin:

beforeobamabans
11-21-2011, 08:12
Long running debates on this subject. I personally would choose capacity over caliber. My personal minimum is 10+1. But if you're just looking for rationalization to buy a 36, try this: you want one and Christmas is coming.

You're welcome.

HK Dan
11-21-2011, 08:26
How much ammo do you need??? twice what it takes to end the fight, plus one. I've never read that self defense encounters are one shot affairs, traditional wisdom goes to the 3-3-3 model. 3 shots, 3 seconds, 3 yards.

That said, if he's still coming after 6, I want to be able to give him 6 more, and I'd LOVE to have 6 more just in case. (G17, hello!)

I took a class with Dr Jim Williams, Milwaukee area ER surgeon and LFI affiliate. Jim said he can't ID the caliber of a wounding bullet unless they find the slug. What's that tell ya? They all do pretty much the same thing. Now Jim is a die hard 1911 guy, and his point is that 9mm is .40, is .45. Until you hit 2000 FPS, they all make a hole, 95% of them go through and through unless they hit a major structure like the pelvis or T spine, FMJ, JHP, doesn't matter.

So, I'd carry a 9mm high capacity with hot ammo and call it good. Either Golden Sabre or Hornady HP/XTP hollow points have my complete faith (hunting). I know that they work after going through hide, so I'll bet denim won't be a challenge. 9mm is an older cartridge than .45 ACP and has killed more people and critters than .45 ever thought of. It's served with more militaries and PDs than .45. If you want "combat proven", 9mm is the only choice! <waiting for the .45 worshippers to explode>

Dan

RX7Boricua
11-21-2011, 08:32
You need as many as you need. There is no way to predict it, but I'd rather have too much than not enough.

This. I recently switched from carrying a 36 to a 19 for greater capacity, quicker followups, and more training/dollar. While .45ACP is still a fantastic, proven round, modern 9mm JHP expands reliably to .6-.7" with plenty of penetration. These days you see a lot more incidents with multiple assailants, so I'd much rather have 31rds of 124gr +P GDHPs on me than my 36 with 13rds of 230gr Golden Sabers. I'm pretty sure I won't need them all, but damn it feels good to have them on me.

Jose

Bren
11-21-2011, 08:40
I'd recommend at least 3 rounds - 6 to be safe. If you can easily carry extras, why not? But it isn't like "OMG I'm unarmed with 7 rounds of .45!" I tend to carry more rounds if I have a .38 spl or .380, but not with a 9mm or larger. On the other hand, I prefer .40 for giving me a little extra capacity in the gun at no real cost in size or power.

FireForged
11-21-2011, 09:03
5 or 6 rounds should be able to assist you quite well in "most" situations.

69Charger
11-21-2011, 09:07
Fill your mag and go on with your business.
Dave

davetron
11-21-2011, 09:13
1) It's 2011. Get over the 45ACP. There is no rational way to consider a Kahr or a Glock 36 superior or even equal to a Glock 19.

2) So it's gonna come down to: You can't keep yourself from getting fat, so youre gonna get a thinner gun to hold you over until you buy more jeans. :supergrin:

1. Well, I wasnít really fishing for a caliber debate but as a previous poster pointed out the 9mm is similar in age and effectiveness so there's really only personal preference and nothing to "get over" (I have guns in 9mm, .40, and 45acp).
2. I didnít say I was getting fat. I said I had put a few extra lbs. on. In the winter time I go from more of cardio routine to weight lifting and I tend to eat more and for me 5 lbs make a huge difference in the way a gun carries.
Thank you for your input

cowboy1964
11-21-2011, 09:21
1-3 rounds cover 90% of shootings
4-6 rounds cover 90% of the remaining shootings after the 1-3 round shootings
7-10 rounds cover 90% of the remaining shootings after the 4-6 round shootings

See a pattern? It's all about playing the odds.

showtime0799
11-21-2011, 09:22
I carry a .357 Magnum stub nose (EAA corp) its heavier than most .45 and if i feel like shooting a moose on the way to the store i can besides who is saying the guy trying to get in your pants (for your wallet) isn't on cocaine? i would rather have 6 magnums than (12) 9mm. i dont miss often so i suggest carrying the bigger caliber w/ the less rounds... if your worried about how many rounds you need... hit the range more often...

BailRecoveryAgent
11-21-2011, 09:25
I started carrying during the Klinton ban so 10+1 is the unscientifically based self induced minimum that I have. My first carry gun was a G19, and just cause I had to carry it with 10 rounders didn't mean I felt I needed to move up in caliber to compensate. I didn't feel undergunned with 9mm then, and I still wouldn't.

cowboy1964
11-21-2011, 09:26
I carry a .357 Magnum stub nose (EAA corp) its heavier than most .45 and if i feel like shooting a moose on the way to the store i can besides who is saying the guy trying to get in your pants (for your wallet) isn't on cocaine? i would rather have 6 magnums than (12) 9mm. i dont miss often so i suggest carrying the bigger caliber w/ the less rounds... if your worried about how many rounds you need... hit the range more often...

You don't miss often? How many firefights have you been in?

BTW, .357 isn't a "bigger" caliber than 9mm. And do you not realize that .357 Magnum out of a snubbie is actually quite slower than a 9mm? You need a 4" barrel before .357 Magnum starts shining. What you essentially have is a hot 6 shot .38. I'll prefer 15+1 of 9mm 124+P Gold Dots from a 4" Glock all day long.

http://www.ballisticsbytheinch.com/357mag.html

Hour13
11-21-2011, 09:34
"Most SD situations are handled with one shot."
"Most people will go their whole lives w/out ever needing to shoot a BG."

You can be over-prepared every day of your life, but you only get to be wrong one time.

Just saying...

davetron
11-21-2011, 10:02
I donít know if this information is pertinent but I also have G19 I use for a "truck gun" in addition to the weapon I normally carry on me so unless I'm just too far away from my truck to fight my way back to it and I get caught in the middle of a shootout between the crips and bloods I normally have a high capacity weapon in a reasonable proximity. ( At least in the most likely places to get attacked, parking lots etc.) I mean, know there could be a horde of homicidal maniacs holed up in house wares at Wal-mart but I think my chances are at least even. I just have a hard time believing that if were assaulted my 2 or more people and I pulled a G36/Kahr P9 etc and start blasting they would say "Hey guys he's only got 7 rounds let's get him!"
Not to make light of a potential serious situation but like Cowboy said it's about playing the odds. And we all calculate what the "acceptable" odds to each of us, otherwise weíd never leave the house unless we had mag's sticking out of every pocket we had. My original posting was to try to see if there was any empirical evidence as to how many rounds were fired in a normal SD situation and based on that it looks like 6-8 plus a spare mag will cover 99% of the situations.

Misty02
11-21-2011, 10:35
Even if you were to find the stats, what they would show are averages. Iím afraid we get to find exactly how many are needed right after an encounter, even that doesnít guarantee what a future encounter will entail.

Beyond question I would say you need, at a minimum, enough to stop the threat(s) and enough to not travel home with it empty. How much is that exactly? I have no clue and I hope I never have to find out.

For now I'm carrying a G19 with 2 spare mags (one of which is a 17 rounder)

.

Warp
11-21-2011, 10:54
There is no way to know how many you will really need. Until you are no longer walking the earth or no longer own/possess/ever carry a firearm, you will not know how many you might really need.

Chances are the number is zero.

If the number is a non-zero, chances are pretty good that 5 will do it. I see no point in discussing a number lower than that as, IMO, anybody at all serious about this will have a pistol that holds 5 or more.

How many to cover 99.9%...that's really what you are asking, I think. 10+1 seems like a pretty good number. I wouldn't mind having more, though. 15+1 in my Glock 19 sure seems like a lot.

xmanhockey7
11-21-2011, 11:13
All I can say is whenever I carry the mag is full with one in the chamber and I have AT LEAST 1 backup mag. I keep this rule true whether I'm carrying my Glock 22, Springfield XDm 3.8 compact, or Ruger LCP.

Lior
11-21-2011, 11:32
There is no right answer. Most of us will go to our graves without ever having to discharge a single round of ammunition. But when one does need to shoot, one would be comforted by having a truckload.

If you're a private citizen with no duty to venture into harm's way, a gunload and a reload are plenty, be it a sixgun or a reciprocating breech shooting iron.

ithaca_deerslayer
11-21-2011, 11:35
Anyway, so I got to looking for stats, stories, urban legends of ACTUAL SD discharges an and I cant find any. Does anybody know any of this info? From what I glean from the news etc it seems like most people (civilians) whoe are involved in shootings it tends to be some kind of domestic and I have yet to read "local man attacked by band of wild gypsies and glock 19 with 15+1 saved his life". Any thoughts?

I don't know the stats, but I've heard/read numbers in the past. Not sure if those numbers were ever about what was needed, or instead just about how many were fired in an incident. Not the same thing.

Shakes crystal ball... you need 2.5 rounds :faint:

It's all compromise, isn't it? You don't lug your semi-auto rifle around. Instead, you wear something that hides easy, and isn't too uncomfortable. The Kahr P9 you mention is a fine choice. That's a 7 round mag, right? Plus 1 in the chamber, you got 8 rounds.

Way I figure it, what if you get into an incident. Chance are pretty good you will fire all the shots, because they are there in the gun, and you will be beyond scared. Gun goes empty. Hopefully the immediate problem in front of you is solved. But now what? You are empty.

Are you alone out on the highway somewhere? Are the police even coming? Did the bad guy have friends?

Those kind of questions make me personally think at least one full reload is worth keeping on you somewhere. Load back up, stay aware, stay safe, and call the police as soon as you can.

HerrGlock
11-21-2011, 11:45
One more. Always one more.

RussP
11-21-2011, 11:55
You don't miss often? How many firefights have you been in?cowboy, check his profile...maybe one, maybe two, maybe none...:cool:

fastbolt
11-21-2011, 12:04
If you have a personal choice ... then you have a personal choice. Suit yourself.

I'd be more concerned about how well you can use the handgun you choose as your dedicated defensive weapon, especially under stressful and demanding conditions.

I prefer to have no less than a .38 Spl or .357 Magnum 5-shot revolver, or a 6-8 shot pistol (9mm, .40 S&W or .45 ACP). That's me. I don't make such decisions, or even recommendations, for other persons. Someone's abilities, decision-making under stress, judgment and knowledge of the applicable laws concerns me more, as an instructor, than their choice in firearms.

If there's some data base about how many rounds private persons fire when lawfully using deadly force to defend themselves, or an innocent third person, I'm unaware of it.

Sure, I know of experiences from when I was active LE, but that's anecdotal and is a rather small data set.

On the other hand, the FBI publishes an annual report about crime in the US, and it contains the number of justifiable homicides performed by private persons, reported to LE, every year. The most recent year's data is for 2010.

There were 278 reported as justifiable homicides by private persons in 2010; 232 of them involved firearms; of which 170 of them involved the use of handguns. The number of rounds fired is not contained in the report's table.

The info for 2006-2010 is in the Expanded Homicide Table Data Table 15, located at http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2010/crime-in-the-u.s.-2010/tables/10shrtbl15.xls

Now, that's a lot less than the number of murders that were reported.

How many of those murders involved a victim who may have used a firearm to defend themselves, but ran out of ammunition and were killed (if any)? I have no idea.

During the same year LE was involved in 387 justifiable homicides; involving 385 firearms; of which 315 involved handguns. Table 14 http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2010/crime-in-the-u.s.-2010/tables/10shrtbl14.xls

You'll notice that LE has more reported instances of justifiable homicide than private persons for those years.

Other Tables http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2010/crime-in-the-u.s.-2010/offenses-known-to-law-enforcement/expanded/expandhomicidemain

All I can say is that after a career in LE, and having been a LE firearms instructor since '90, I don't pretend to have a "definitive answer" for the question of "how many rounds do you really need". I train and practice.

I choose the handguns I choose for off-duty & retirement for reasons of my own. They include 5-shot revolvers (I seldom carry any of my 6-shot revolvers anymore), and assorted pistols with magazine capacities ranging from 6-12 rounds. I choose what I carry on any given day - that I choose to be armed - for reasons that matter to me. Capacity is a minor consideration, for me.

When I've listened to other cops discuss their shooting incidents, I've always found it interesting how the caliber & capacity of their weapons seemed less of an important consideration to them than how well they were able get effective hits on their attackers. More than a few of them discussed how they remembered thinking at some point during their incidents that they had to "settle down and start aiming", at which point they were able to stop their attackers.

HarleyGuy
11-21-2011, 12:25
The only incident that I remember of ammo capacity issues is the one in Salt Lake City, UT a couple of years ago.

There was an active shooter in a mall and an off-duty officer from Ogden, UT was having havin a meal with his wife when he heard the shots being fired.

From one account of the story, he managed to contain the shooter until back-up arrived but at that time he had "ran dry" of ammo as he only had the magazine loaded in his compact Kimber.

I'm not aware of any state regulating how many rounds that we can carry.
As other have stated, the chances are that you'll need zero rounds so carry whatever makes you feel secure.

Just remember that it's not the number of times you miss the target that counts, it's the number of times you hit it that is important.

MadMonkey
11-21-2011, 12:46
You don't know, so carry what you're comfortable with. Sometimes I'm okay with carrying my LCP, and sometimes I tuck in my USPc or M&P as well. Sometimes I even carry my Five-Seven.

One thing is for certain, I'd much rather have one round than zero. Anything beyond that is a bonus.

BailRecoveryAgent
11-21-2011, 12:49
As far as states limiting the amount of rounds you can carry, I don't think I've heard of a state doing that, but plenty limit magazine capacity.

As far as the NY reload vs. spare mag debate, aren't there a couple states that prohibit you from carry more than one gun? I think NM is one.:dunno:

I prefer a reload or two over a second gun, but thats just my preference.

ZombieKing
11-21-2011, 14:17
Carry what you want and tell any detractors where to eat lead.

Riz58
11-21-2011, 15:09
The only definitive answer: As many rounds as it takes to solve the problem you are currently facing. One guy with a knife or 3 gangbangers with lead pipes?

The statistical number that would be most advantageous is probably the maximum number of rounds expended by a private citizen in an encounter. New Life Church - 8 rounds. Trolley Square - 6 and he was empty. Home defense - in excess of 15 I have heard of.

It also depends on your philosophy in shooting bad guys. Are you a shoot, look, and see? Two to the chest, and one to the head if that did not work? Or shoot them to the ground?

Since Trolley Square I always carry the gun plus a reload, and never less than 14 rounds. (My Kahr P45 plus one reload.) Normally 21 to 26 rounds (M&P Compact 40 S&W).

In aviation there are three things you cannot use: runway behind you, altitude above you, and fuel back in the tank at the FBO. In self-defense: you cannot use skills you have not developed, a gun you do not have with you, and ammo that is still in the box.

SCmasterblaster
11-21-2011, 18:13
I have 17 in my G17. I don't expect to need more than 3 or 4, but I have to have 6 or 8 more for the friends of his who may show up later. I carry a single reload magazine of 16 rounds also.

ragsflh
11-21-2011, 21:01
carry what your confortable with.i carry a glock 20 or 1911

rohanreginald
11-21-2011, 21:06
Just read on here somewhere that most sd situations involve ONE SHOT...

I got to say no way! Every one that I have ever talked to who was in a shooting, military to civilian sd has said they emptied their gun.

michael e
11-21-2011, 21:12
Hopefully we well never need any. I carry several diffrent guns, so anywhere from 10+1 to 17+1 with a BUG 6+1 , and a 5shot revlover. Don't think I need all those, but I have access to a firearm no matter how I am sitting in the vehicle.

Berto
11-21-2011, 21:16
My primary concern is having a gun. Ideally it will be something that I shoot well and can rely on to work in any plausible situation I need it to.
Beyond that, anything more than 5 is a bonus.

PlasticGuy
11-21-2011, 21:27
The only reliable stats I've seen on the number of rounds fired in a gunfight is compiled by the FBI from LE shootings. The vast majority of gunfights end in 3-5 rounds. The number keeps creeping up though. Between semi-autos, higher capacity mags, and multiple attackers, it gets higher every year. I've seen numbers of 30+ rounds in some cases.

That said, most of the high round count shootings involve a whole lot of missing. More rounds in training would keep the round count lower in shooting. I have always felt comfortable with any round count of 6 or more in the gun, and at least one reload. More is better, but that's really quite a bit of shooting in an actual gunfight.

Reb 56
11-22-2011, 01:48
Rember you can bring Home all the unused ammo. Nobody complains about too much ammo in a gun fight.

happyguy
11-22-2011, 02:05
You need enough to get yourself out of the situation you find yourself in and to have a full gun for the trip home.

For me on most days this means a G19 or G26 with a spare G19 magazine and a J-frame with at least one reload.

The J-frame is easily accessible with my left hand.

My worst case scenario is being at work and having to walk home during some kind of civil disturbance. In that situation I want to be as well armed as possible, but I don't want to draw attention to myself walking down the street with an AR15 slung over my shoulder.

Regards,
Happyguy :)

Toorop
11-22-2011, 02:41
A better question would be, how many rounds will you won'y you need?

Crawford
11-22-2011, 04:15
7......

vafish
11-22-2011, 07:02
There was a pizza delivery guy a few years back that fired 15 shots at his attackers.

I've never heard of a gun fight survivor wishing they had a smaller gun or less ammo.

In the end we each have to decide what makes us comfortable and carry that.

Lior
11-22-2011, 08:59
There was a pizza delivery guy a few years back that fired 15 shots at his attackers.

I've never heard of a gun fight survivor wishing they had a smaller gun or less ammo.

In the end we each have to decide what makes us comfortable and carry that.

Ronald Honeycutt.

Warp
11-22-2011, 10:47
There was a pizza delivery guy a few years back that fired 15 shots at his attackers.

I've never heard of a gun fight survivor wishing they had a smaller gun or less ammo.

In the end we each have to decide what makes us comfortable and carry that.

Yup. The Indianapolis guy.

Lior nailed it

http://www.usatoday.com/money/companies/management/2004-12-09-guns-cover_x.htm

Shadyscott69
11-22-2011, 10:54
I carry a .357 Magnum stub nose (EAA corp) its heavier than most .45 and if i feel like shooting a moose on the way to the store i can besides who is saying the guy trying to get in your pants (for your wallet) isn't on cocaine? i would rather have 6 magnums than (12) 9mm. i dont miss often so i suggest carrying the bigger caliber w/ the less rounds... if your worried about how many rounds you need... hit the range more often...

You do realize that the difference between 9mm and 357 out of a snubbie is academic, don't you?

Sam Spade
11-22-2011, 11:45
You do realize that the difference between 9mm and 357 out of a snubbie is academic, don't you?

Not when you're talking follow-up shots. Then the .357 loses.

Warp
11-22-2011, 11:46
Give the .357 a 3" or greater barrel, then the difference in performance is meaningful.

brisk21
11-22-2011, 11:56
I feel perfectly fine with my 6+1 9mm PPS. I mean, its just concealed carry. Its not like your a cop out there possibly thwarting bank robbers and getting in shootouts with people.

Warp
11-22-2011, 12:00
I feel perfectly fine with my 6+1 9mm PPS. I mean, its just concealed carry. Its not like your a cop out there possibly thwarting bank robbers and getting in shootouts with people.

What you are is a person out there possibly being present for or victimized in a bank robbery and getting into shootouts with people.

That possibility is lower, of course, but it certainly exists. The question is whether or not you find that possibility to be reasonably high enough to take into consideration.

brisk21
11-22-2011, 12:05
What you are is a person out there possibly being present for or victimized in a bank robbery and getting into shootouts with people.

That possibly is lower, of course, but it certainly exists. The question is whether or not you find that possibility to be reasonably high enough to take into consideration.


Yes. I find the average CCW incident is against one other person and 6+1 9mm is enough for me to defend myself against two people.

Shadyscott69
11-22-2011, 12:21
Not when you're talking follow-up shots. Then the .357 loses.


I agree completely, Sam. The only thing you gain from the 357 is recoil and muzzle blast. I do carry a 340 PD very often.

12smile
11-23-2011, 08:32
I got to say no way! Every one that I have ever talked to who was in a shooting, military to civilian sd has said they emptied their gun.

Same here.

Was mugged. Knocked to the ground. had to fire w/ assistance of laser. Emptied 1st mag, hit the bg once. he fled. Had a second mag, would have needed it if bg had not fled.

RX7Boricua
11-23-2011, 09:17
Same here.

Was mugged. Knocked to the ground. had to fire w/ assistance of laser. Emptied 1st mag, hit the bg once. he fled. Had a second mag, would have needed it if bg had not fled.

And there you have it. Even with a laser, 12smile emptied his entire magazine and only hit the bad guy once. This is exactly what I mean... No one knows how things will go until you're actually in that situation. I can't think of any worse feeling than your slide locking back with a viable threat still in front of you.

I'm sure we all like to think that we can simply draw from concealment and dispatch a pair of armed thugs like Tom Cruise in Collateral, but until I'm in that type of situation and know how I'm going to actually react, I'd rather have 31rds of 9mm +P on tap. :)

Jose

Darkangel1846
11-23-2011, 09:45
I'm a traditional 45 acp guy but my primary carry weapons are a G19 and a G23 because I felt like I needed the extra capacity. I also have a Kahr P9 and I've started to carry it more and more since I've put on a few lbs and it's easily the most comfortable. So i was thinking if I'm going to limit myself to 6-8 rds in my CC piece why not do it with a 45? (see how I'm rationalizing getting a G36).
Anyway, so I got to looking for stats, stories, urban legends of ACTUAL SD discharges an and I cant find any. Does anybody know any of this info? From what I glean from the news etc it seems like most people (civilians) whoe are involved in shootings it tends to be some kind of domestic and I have yet to read "local man attacked by band of wild gypsies and glock 19 with 15+1 saved his life". Any thoughts?

How many shots do you need? Well how good a shot are you, do you stay calm under fire, how often do you practice, what amount makes you feel confortable. Answer those questions first.:wavey:

tango44
11-23-2011, 09:49
You need as many as you need. There is no way to predict it, but I'd rather have too much than not enough.

+1000 on this one!
G19 fully loaded plus at least one extra mag for me all the time!

NMG26
11-23-2011, 09:57
I am thinking that the Ruger P345 may be a good route to go.

8+1 is a good capacity with 45 APC.

hamster
11-23-2011, 09:59
Same here.

Was mugged. Knocked to the ground. had to fire w/ assistance of laser. Emptied 1st mag, hit the bg once. he fled. Had a second mag, would have needed it if bg had not fled.

Ok, you can't just mention a story like that in passing. We want details. What kind of weapon did you have, what laser, what ammo... etc

Mayhem like Me
11-23-2011, 10:53
No one I know involved in a gunfight (including Me) ever wished for a smaller gun or less rounds...

Carry the most effective, reliable weapon you can hit with accurately under stress..

If you are happy with a 7 shot 22lr then rock that, if you can carry a 15 shot 10mm go for it.

giant_pita
11-23-2011, 10:57
Depends on whether you are trying to get away or trying to apprehend. The first also how fast you can run.....

I can't think of any situation where it isn't prudent to have a backup mag available somewhere close.

dhoomonyou
11-23-2011, 11:00
The holiday season brings out the best and worst of people.

RIGHT now I have 22 rounds of 180 JHP in 2 mags for my slingshot.

Longtooths
11-23-2011, 11:09
What I carry:
6 in the clip, one in the pipe
and an additional clip just in case

Riz58
11-23-2011, 18:08
The price of carrying extra ammo is minimal - the cost of a magazine or speed loader and the ammunition to go in it, along with a pocket to put it in. The cost if you need it and don't have it? Maybe your life.

The pizza delivery guy using 15 rounds has been mentioned. Another story is the owner of jewlery store getting into a gun fight with a five or six shot revolver. He ran out of ammo, but the other guys were still shooting.

The average number of gun shots in a gun fight has NO relevance to the discussion because it will have nothing to do with the fight you face. Again, the MOST number of rounds expended in a civilian gunfight is helpful because it informs us of what others in similar circumstances have required. It does not mean you will not need more than that, or less, but it does set a good base line for the minimum amount needed.

Spiffums
11-23-2011, 19:40
The world has changed. No longer is it the lone mugger. BGs run in packs and they don't scatter with the 1st shot fired. You need as many rounds as you are comfortable with. I won't tell you that your 1911 with 1 extra mag is all you need or will I tell you that your stupid if you don't carry a 17 to 20 round gun with 2 extra mags.

You do an extra mag for the fact that magazines can fail and you might need the new mag more than the ammo.

Merkavaboy
11-23-2011, 19:43
I'm a traditional 45 acp guy but my primary carry weapons are a G19 and a G23 because I felt like I needed the extra capacity. I also have a Kahr P9 and I've started to carry it more and more since I've put on a few lbs and it's easily the most comfortable. So i was thinking if I'm going to limit myself to 6-8 rds in my CC piece why not do it with a 45? (see how I'm rationalizing getting a G36).
Anyway, so I got to looking for stats, stories, urban legends of ACTUAL SD discharges an and I cant find any. Does anybody know any of this info? From what I glean from the news etc it seems like most people (civilians) whoe are involved in shootings it tends to be some kind of domestic and I have yet to read "local man attacked by band of wild gypsies and glock 19 with 15+1 saved his life". Any thoughts?

Read and learn from Rory Vertigan's incident:

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0BTT/is_186_31/ai_n27134440/

I also recall reading of an Active Shooter inside a mall in which an off-duty LEO engaged the shooter with his compact .45 loaded with 6-7 rounds and no spare ammo. He used half his ammo keeping the AS pinned down until SWAT officers showed up to take over.

These are just a few incidents where more ammo is important.

This is also why I carry a full 15 round mag in my G19/G26 and carry at least one full reload. I've benched my Colt Combat Commander, Ruger Security Six .357 and HK P7M8 for all Glocks with full cap mags.

collim1
11-23-2011, 20:52
The only incident that I remember of ammo capacity issues is the one in Salt Lake City, UT a couple of years ago.

There was an active shooter in a mall and an off-duty officer from Ogden, UT was having havin a meal with his wife when he heard the shots being fired.

From one account of the story, he managed to contain the shooter until back-up arrived but at that time he had "ran dry" of ammo as he only had the magazine loaded in his compact Kimber.

I'm not aware of any state regulating how many rounds that we can carry.
As other have stated, the chances are that you'll need zero rounds so carry whatever makes you feel secure.

Just remember that it's not the number of times you miss the target that counts, it's the number of times you hit it that is important.

If I remember correctly his mag was not topped off after he chambered a round either. According to him he really needed an extra mag.

HarleyGuy
11-23-2011, 21:27
Not judging, just posing a question and hopefully we all can learn from other's experiences.

Does anyone think having a large capacity of ammo leads to firing rounds unnecessarily?

Most of my training has recommended the "double tap".

Most instructors say that if you train enough you will do the the same when you're in a stressful (a gunfight is stressful, right?) situation

I remember one instructor telling a story about a police officer who was carrying a semi-auto and was engaged in a firefight, using his cruiser as cover when his semi-auto jammed. He instinctly reverted back to his training about clearing the jam and done the "rap, tap, bang" and shot the rear tire of his cruiser!

In over 10+ years of carrying I've never experienced (thankfully) a time when I had to even consider touching my gun for defense.
If I ever do, I can only hope that I will be able to remember the basics of drawing my gun properly, acquiring the target safely and hitting it quickley with as few shots as possible.

dpadams6
11-23-2011, 21:35
I'm a traditional 45 acp guy but my primary carry weapons are a G19 and a G23 because I felt like I needed the extra capacity. I also have a Kahr P9 and I've started to carry it more and more since I've put on a few lbs and it's easily the most comfortable. So i was thinking if I'm going to limit myself to 6-8 rds in my CC piece why not do it with a 45? (see how I'm rationalizing getting a G36).
Anyway, so I got to looking for stats, stories, urban legends of ACTUAL SD discharges an and I cant find any. Does anybody know any of this info? From what I glean from the news etc it seems like most people (civilians) whoe are involved in shootings it tends to be some kind of domestic and I have yet to read "local man attacked by band of wild gypsies and glock 19 with 15+1 saved his life". Any thoughts?

If i knew i was going into a gun fight against someone with a .45 that carried 6-8 rounds. I think i would feel that i had an advantage carrying 13 rounds of 40/357(glock 23,32), or even 15 rounds of 9mm(glock 19). When the SHTF, you never have enough. For every round someone with .45 shot my way, i'd be returning 2 rounds his way. The majority of rounds fired in a gunfight miss there mark. So, i'd say that the odds would be in my favor...

dhkaiser
11-24-2011, 05:42
If i knew i was going into a gun fight against someone ...

I would take a rifle or a shotgun.

xmanhockey7
11-24-2011, 06:02
I would take a rifle or a shotgun.

I'd just stay home. But seriously chances are I'll never need to use a gun in self defense but if I do I want a lot of rounds. Rather have my 2 back up mags and not need them than need them and not have them. Don't forget about my BUG. One time I went to the range my main carry gun (Glock 22) was malfunctioning. On every shot the slide would stay back. Well as it turns out when I completely took it apart I didn't put the spring under the pin causing it to lock up on every shot. If I had needed it in a SD situation I would have been in serious poop and going for my BUG assuming I wasn't already dead.

happyguy
11-24-2011, 06:21
You do realize that the difference between 9mm and 357 out of a snubbie is academic, don't you?

If you consider 200 fps academic, then yes.

But I wouldn't subject myself to a .357 out of a lightweight snubbie for a 200 fps velocity increase.

Edit: Oops sorry, I misread your post. I was thinking .38 versus .357. But I'd still prefer the .38 over the magnum cartridge.

Regards,
Happyguy :)

Spartacus100
11-24-2011, 06:46
+1000 on this one!
G19 fully loaded plus at least one extra mag for me all the time!


Same for me. I carry a G19 with 31 rounds of HP available everyday everywhere except for my job where it stays in the car and where the law prohibits it.

cadillacguns
11-24-2011, 07:01
Depends on your situation, if I am carrying the G-23/27, i carry a full size G-22 mag spare, if I carry the G-22, then G-22 mag(s) are in reserve. If I ever have to use one and reload there would have to be a reason I had not unassed the area yet.

dudel
11-24-2011, 08:11
Your spouse could carry another weapon(or mags). Heaven knows the capacity of most purses could carry enough ammo to end a small conflict.

I alternate between a G26 or a G38. If you're considering .45, take a look at the GAPs.

Merkavaboy
11-24-2011, 19:50
Not judging, just posing a question and hopefully we all can learn from other's experiences.

Does anyone think having a large capacity of ammo leads to firing rounds unnecessarily?

Most of my training has recommended the "double tap".

Most instructors say that if you train enough you will do the the same when you're in a stressful (a gunfight is stressful, right?) situation

I remember one instructor telling a story about a police officer who was carrying a semi-auto and was engaged in a firefight, using his cruiser as cover when his semi-auto jammed. He instinctly reverted back to his training about clearing the jam and done the "rap, tap, bang" and shot the rear tire of his cruiser!

In over 10+ years of carrying I've never experienced (thankfully) a time when I had to even consider touching my gun for defense.
If I ever do, I can only hope that I will be able to remember the basics of drawing my gun properly, acquiring the target safely and hitting it quickley with as few shots as possible.

Re: Double Taps. I remember an article or possibly a book titled: Double Tap, Evaluate and Die. My philosophy/mind set follows that of Evan Marshall's: You shoot until the threat is stopped. If it takes one or two shots, fine. It may take a full magazine or cylinder full to stop your attacker. One never knows.

And I believe it was John Farnham that quipped (paraphrased here): Everyone gets first servings, then you go back and give them seconds if needed.

I recall a story (not sure if it's 100% true) that one victim facing three attackers did DT's on the first two and was shot dead by the third. I think Farnham had it right that when faced by multiple attackers, everyone gets their "first servings".

Every situation is going to be different. A single missed shot may send the attacker fleeing, or it might just make the attacker more bold and willing to fight back. If they fight back, hopefully the victim will have enough ammo (or guns) to survive the encounter.

cfec2008
11-24-2011, 19:58
All that you can put in the gun and carry in spare mags with you. Most of the time I carry my 19 with a full mag with one in the chamber. I also carry a spare mag in my pocket. Have I ever needed to use it? No, but if the time ever comes that I have to pull my weapon for self defense I feel confident that most likeley I will have enough.
Whats better...29 or 30? .. I know most people will say one round doesnt make any difference when youre carrying that much ammo, but the answer to the question is as much as you can carry. A back up gun is very important too. The primary weapon could be dropped, malfunction that a tap rack bang might not fix, the bad guy could take your weapon. Reasons go on and on.

LASTRESORT20
11-24-2011, 20:02
You need as many as you need. There is no way to predict it, but I'd rather have too much than not enough.



This..^^^


"One shot"
Hmmmm.....One better not miss....and hope the assailant`(s) stays down.

BK63
11-24-2011, 20:15
This has turned to a caliber debate of which there are many on here. Can't we all just............get along????? :supergrin:

PrecisionRifleman
11-24-2011, 20:22
"And do you not realize that .357 Magnum out of a snubbie is actually quite slower than a 9mm? You need a 4" barrel before .357 Magnum starts shining.



True words!

Deaf Smith
11-24-2011, 21:20
I'm a traditional 45 acp guy but my primary carry weapons are a G19 and a G23 because I felt like I needed the extra capacity. I also have a Kahr P9 and I've started to carry it more and more since I've put on a few lbs and it's easily the most comfortable. So i was thinking if I'm going to limit myself to 6-8 rds in my CC piece why not do it with a 45? (see how I'm rationalizing getting a G36).
Anyway, so I got to looking for stats, stories, urban legends of ACTUAL SD discharges an and I cant find any. Does anybody know any of this info? From what I glean from the news etc it seems like most people (civilians) whoe are involved in shootings it tends to be some kind of domestic and I have yet to read "local man attacked by band of wild gypsies and glock 19 with 15+1 saved his life". Any thoughts?

dave,

A stat is a stat is a stat... but as Lance Thomas found out, you might need more than that six shots and you are the 'stat' that was not average.

Pack as many shots as you want or don't want, but if you run out because you were in that 2 or 3 percentile, well that is to bad.

Ultimately, it's your posterior Cochise, not mine. I'll still carry my Glock.

And Cowboy, Bullalo Bore makes .357s that out of 2 1/2 tube are way ahead of any 9mm load. But I suggest you use a 686 snub or Ruger 3 inch GP100, cause they kick amite (125gr. Jacketed Hollow Point = 1476 fps from a 3 inch barrel.)

Deaf

Redstate
11-24-2011, 23:20
In another thread, I asked a similar question about whether there was a preference in concealed carry for 7 rounds of .45 in a G36, 10 rounds of .40 in a G27 or 11 rounds of 9 in a G26 with the premise that you can shoot them each as well as the other. I still haven't figured out my preference. Right now I am feeling comfortable with 10 rounds of .40; however, on other days, I have felt comfortable with 7 rounds of .45. I also generally carry a spare mag as well for any of my concealed carry pistols.
Bottom line, as stated by others, you have to make a subjective decision as to your comfort zone, based upon various factors.

NEOH212
11-24-2011, 23:41
I carry at least one spare mag.

I would rather have too many rounds than not enough. IMHO, if someone is going to carry a firearm, they should have the means to reload that firearm at least once.

DB1985
11-27-2011, 18:13
I carry a G30 with an extra magazine. So 21 rounds.