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batson35
11-21-2011, 15:46
Thoughts???

Two of the officers and the Chief are on forced leave.

Roering
11-21-2011, 15:54
Thoughts???

Two of the officers and the Chief are on forced leave.

Hey, it's only pepper.

GioaJack
11-21-2011, 16:08
Were those students wearing gas masks that I couldn't see or didn't notice? In viewing the video the pepper spray seemed to have little or no effect. Am I missing something?


Jack

RussP
11-21-2011, 16:19
The students surrounded a group of police. When the police said they were leaving and wanted a path, a group told them they (police) would have to go trough them first. They sat down cross legged and linked arms. There they sat peacefully blocking they police exit from the area. That was a statement made today by one of those sprayed in an interview on NPR.

Morris
11-21-2011, 17:30
Funny thing is, UCD Chief Spicuzza was my academy sergeant. She didn't take any bull back then. She will be sacrificed on the alter of UC political correctness.

smokeross
11-21-2011, 17:49
What I saw on the news looked like a bunch of cops attempting to punish peaceful protesters. Kind of reminded me of the 60's, only without the batons and dogs.

Goldendog Redux
11-21-2011, 18:05
If people are protesting on a University Campus, why the hell would the Chief of college police/Chancellor Whatsherface deem it necessary to do anything? Is a goddanm college campus. People protest all the time on campuses Nationwide for whatever reason. Seems like a no win situation and a stupid decision.

At least the pepper spray cop has become a popular culture icon.

m2hmghb
11-21-2011, 18:05
What I saw on the news looked like a bunch of cops attempting to punish peaceful protesters. Kind of reminded me of the 60's, only without the batons and dogs.

Then I suggest you watch the full video instead of the news blurb. The officers tried to get them to move so they could get themselves and their vehicle through for several minuetes. The only ones sprayed are those who blocked the concrete path where the vehicle was. If it had been the 60s it wouldn't have been like that.

m2hmghb
11-21-2011, 18:06
If people are protesting on a University Campus, why the hell would the Chief of college police/Chancellor Whatsherface deem it necessary to do anything? Is a goddanm college campus. People protest all the time on campuses Nationwide for whatever reason. Seems like a no win situation and a stupid decision.

At least the pepper spray cop has become a popular culture icon.

Because they prevented people from going places by blocking access points.

CAcop
11-21-2011, 18:48
236PC false imprisonment and 626.somethingPC trespass on UC grounds.

The chief and Lt can be fired easy. Problem is the UC system just ****ed themselves forever when it comes to protests from now on.

hamster
11-21-2011, 18:57
Maybe they need free speech zones like they had at the democratic convention.

In the footage I've seen there are cops on both sides of the protesters, so somehow they must have been able to get past them. If I needed to get into the building, I'd simply... you know step over them.

Sharky7
11-21-2011, 19:09
Maybe they need free speech zones like they had at the democratic convention.

In the footage I've seen there are cops on both sides of the protesters, so somehow they must have been able to get past them. If I needed to get into the building, I'd simply... you know step over them.


That's like refusing to move your car when you are parked in a fire lane next to an empty parking spot.

You can peacefully assemble and have free speech - that doesn't mean that it is limitless.....You can't do it in my living room if I don't invite you in. There are still some rules....dozens of people are using their free speech in this video and NOT blocking the path, those people do not get arrested.

They were told to clear a path for the emergency vehicle and staff. You can see the vehicle better in this video;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6AdDLhPwpp4

There was no reason for them to block the path except to be spoiled brats. Protest all you want, but you are still accountable for your illegal actions. Occupy is the same way - you can't block the road without a permit for that street and expect it to be kosher just because you are "protesting." If any other citizen walked down the middle of the road blocking thousands of people on their commute to work they would get arrested or cited as well.

hamster
11-21-2011, 19:11
That's like refusing to move your car when you are parked in a fire lane next to an empty parking spot.

You can peacefully assemble and have free speech - that doesn't mean that it is limitless.....You can't do it in my living room if I don't invite you in. There are still some rules....dozens of people are using their free speech in this video and NOT blocking the path, those people do not get arrested.

They were told to clear a path for the emergency vehicle and staff. You can see the vehicle better in this video;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6AdDLhPwpp4

There was no reason for them to block the path except to be spoiled brats. Protest all you want, but you are still accountable for your illegal actions. Occupy is the same way - you can't block the road without a permit for that street and expect it to be kosher just because you are "protesting." If any other citizen walked down the middle of the road blocking thousands of people on their commute to work they would get arrested or cited as well.

What ever happened to just good old fashioned picking people up and moving them? I see a vehicle sitting there, but without it's sirens and flashy lights going I don't know if it is reasonable to assume there was an "emergency."

As much as a dislike hippies, I just don't get the warm fuzzies when I see police dressed as storm troopers casually spraying chemicals into the eyes of folks just sitting on the ground.

blastfact
11-21-2011, 19:31
None of this is going to turn out well for anybody. The government is corrupt and they have LEO and Military to do there dirty work.

If a Kent State type action takes place in this day and age LEO and Military will be in a real bad situation.

There was no reason for the cops to spray the peaceful demonstrators. I saw the complete vid as it's known today. Folks were not threatening LEO's. Just holding ground in a peaceful manor.

These so called legal orders are carrying less weight with the citizens of the USA. The system seams to forget who they work for. And why IMHO.

It's going to get worse before it gets better.

Dave Richardson
11-21-2011, 19:32
Hamster, I'm with you on this one, as is Peter Moskos, http://www.copinthehood.com/

All he left out was the inflection in "real PO-lice".

blastfact
11-21-2011, 19:51
Hamster, I'm with you on this one, as is Peter Moskos, http://www.copinthehood.com/

All he left out was the inflection in "real PO-lice".

Dave common sense has went out the window. The Police should of went in and hauled the folks out blocking there path. And there are many examples of this lift and carry off the peaceful.

Wrong or right, or who believes in or discounts the protest. Peaceful protesters should be treated with respect IMO.

Dogs, spray, taser and other police tools. Will turn against them in the long run IMO.

Americans have pushed back at times in our history. And in the long run they have won. Wonder how the cops that where tools over civil rights feel now. How did folks feel over all after the civil war. OOOO and let us not forget how our once great country was formed. Look at how the government is working now. The Supreme Court, Your local City Conceal.

Folks are getting fed up. And the system does not work. The cops way out is change the laws. But the people have no power over all until they explode. A vote does not count any more. Lobbying politicians does not work. Just look at health care reform. 2/3's of the country was against it as it is. But all agreed something needed to be done. The political's did as they wished.

It's coming. It's going to get bad in the long run.

RVER
11-21-2011, 20:02
Were those students wearing gas masks that I couldn't see or didn't notice? In viewing the video the pepper spray seemed to have little or no effect. Am I missing something? Jack

Give it 5-8 seconds before seeing any visible effect.... I don't agree with using O.C. in this case, however, why turn a less than ideal decision into a poor one by deploying a level one exposure when a level three (area / cross contamination) would have moved them along without direct exposure?
:dunno:

Chico Bill
11-21-2011, 20:12
It amazes me the entitlement of today's society. People speak about respect but the police simply wanted to leave, and were content letting the protesters protest. The protesters then falsely imprisoned the officers by refusing to allow them to leave.

I cry no tears. They're disrespectful pukes using the police to get some ambiguous political message across and are happily trying to ruin the career of cops who just wanted to leave.

If the above posts are correct I've lost all respect for them, as they have shown they have none.

Sharky7
11-21-2011, 20:15
What ever happened to just good old fashioned picking people up and moving them? I see a vehicle sitting there, but without it's sirens and flashy lights going I don't know if it is reasonable to assume there was an "emergency."

As much as a dislike hippies, I just don't get the warm fuzzies when I see police dressed as storm troopers casually spraying chemicals into the eyes of folks just sitting on the ground.

From the reports I read - the police vehicles were containing people who had already been arrested. The protestors were blocking the way and refusing to allow police to leave with their arrestee's.

So what do you propose they do once they "pick up and move" these people. Where do they put them, 10 feet away out of the drive so the police vehicles can get by with the arrestee's? Then the protestors come right back and sit right back down. Pushing matches start, people surround police cars with arrestee's inside, etc...

Do they arrest and escort the protestors one by one away? They are being blocked in already from taking out their current arrestee's! You need large buses, transportation needs on standby, large amounts of officers, etc.

So, let's say they had 20-30 officers to deal with this.....go on....tell me how they do it. You start putting people in handcuffs - you need a place to take them! If you are being stopped from leaving - where do you put them. Cuff them up and place them on the grass hoping they don't run away?

You cross a big line when you stop police from leaving the scene with an arrestee and it is a criminal line called obstructing.

blastfact
11-21-2011, 20:20
It amazes me the entitlement of today's society. People speak about respect but the police simply wanted to leave, and were content letting the protesters protest. The protesters then falsely imprisoned the officers by refusing to allow them to leave.

I cry no tears. They're disrespectful pukes using the police to get some ambiguous political message across and are happily trying to ruin the career of cops who just wanted to leave.

If the above posts are correct I've lost all respect for them, as they have shown they have none.

All the cops had to do was arrest them and carry them out. Or carry them to the grass. Easy!!!! But to spray them like they were painting curbs was stupid.

Sharky7
11-21-2011, 20:25
All the cops had to do was arrest them and carry them out. Or carry them to the grass. Easy!!!! But to spray them like they were painting curbs was stupid.

How many riots, large fights, gang picnics, large disturbances, or protests have you been involved in?

janice6
11-21-2011, 20:27
The way I see it, you guys are screwed if you do and damned if you don't. It's getting worse.

dooga
11-21-2011, 20:28
She will be sacrificed on the alter of UC political correctness.Since when did justice become PC?

Agent6-3/8
11-21-2011, 20:41
The way I see it, you guys are screwed if you do and damned if you don't. It's getting worse.

Pretty much. Regardless of what LE does they're the bad guys. Its been a growing trend since the 60's and its not going to get any better.



Did anyone hear the comment from the UC professor on the NBC Nightly News? "Why are the police armed with assault rifles and chemical weapons? What are they thinking!?!" :upeyes:

RussP
11-21-2011, 20:53
Did anyone hear the comment from the UC professor on the NBC Nightly News? "Why are the police armed with assault rifles and chemical weapons? What are they thinking!?!" :upeyes:Yep...Guess he forgot all of the shootings at colleges over the last few years and the calls for faster and more effective police responses.

msu_grad_121
11-21-2011, 20:54
How many riots, large fights, gang picnics, large disturbances, or protests have you been involved in?

From the ignorant tone of their posts, and the fact that every "alternative" method of handling this scenario has been some of the absolute dumbest drivel I've ever heard from a tactial or safety-minded approach, I'm going to go ahead and say without fear of contradiction that those three posters have never been on a line, outnumbered by an angry group armed with God-knows-what and refusing to allow you to do your sworn duty by physically blocking your way with their bodies. Further to that, I would call into question their common sense, in that upon "...carry[ing] them to the grass. Easy!!!!" what is the first thing these spoiled little brats will do? That's right, run right back to where they were. Now, you've started to climb the force continuum, and what options are left?

I'm betting the three of you have never even watched an episode of The Andy Griffith Show, let alone dealt with a disturbance even approaching the type shown here, so please don't be offended if I or other officers choose not to follow your superior, sage, over-simplistic advice on crowd control/riot response.

And as for their mode of dress, when one of you will stand there and let me blast you in the face, neck, head or torso with a large rock, bottle, piece of wood, etc. AND NOT JUST ONCE, then I'll listen to your ideas of how they should be clad when handling this type of situation. Until then, don't speak on subjects you obviously have no clue about.

Fred Hansen
11-21-2011, 20:57
Thoughts???

Two of the officers and the Chief are on forced leave.Next time bring:

http://lh5.googleusercontent.com/public/QCy1s2kG7jljVqcB5gmCSjSqvYOvc2J2X4-x86gdQ6vYfn29rDbWe1hpIbKVWKQRkDUDNLPETK8YHYQJ4OY4EyAwEiPP9bJOXK40-L3iD03CQsQNV2AGBEUDe7F95k76hWppOKG-6ZaA
Sesame Street Cherry Foam Spray Soap and a garden hose.

Or sub-out the job to Eric Cartman.

http://www.standingstone.com/design/beyond-veil/signals/view/icons/dcs03_500.jpg

Goldendog Redux
11-21-2011, 21:05
Because they prevented people from going places by blocking access points.

So there was a line of protesters locked arm and arm that covered the circumference of the earth? Go around and avoid having your officers pepper spraying the crap out of "peaceful" protesters, thereby hardening the resolve of the protesters and creating a giant ****storm for everyone involved. Anyway, they ultimately went hands on to move the people in the way, which they should have just done in the first place.

And yes Janice6 the police are screwed either way. Mostly, I do not see the general public calling for the squashing of occupiers Nationwide.

MF

m2hmghb
11-21-2011, 21:15
So there was a line of protesters locked arm and arm that covered the circumference of the earth? Go around and avoid having your officers pepper spraying the crap out of "peaceful" protesters, thereby hardening the resolve of the protesters and creating a giant ****storm for everyone involved. Anyway, they ultimately went hands on to move the people in the way, which they should have just done in the first place.

And yes Janice6 the police are screwed either way. Mostly, I do not see the general public calling for the squashing of occupiers Nationwide.

MF

Oh really? How could they get the patrol car around them? If you notice the protesters were all around. Pepper spraying was the LEAST amount of force they could use. In the 60s they would have been subject to baton strikes. Would you prefer that? The cops tried to move them before they were maced, they refused, the officers couldn't pull them apart without risking injury so they used a mild chemical agent.

Oh and by the way I call BS on the "peaceful" part. If they were peaceful they would have moved an continued the demonstration from the grass. Instead they remained blocking the exit for officers and other people to use. If you want to get technical you could also charge them with resisting arrest without violence in several states. Those pre pubescent punks got lucky they were treated with kid gloves.

msu_grad_121
11-21-2011, 21:16
And yes Janice6 the police are screwed either way. Mostly, I do not see the general public calling for the squashing of occupiers Nationwide.

The point is, they are blocking a route which they have no right to block. It's like with kids, give an inch, they take a mile. Give in to this, and you start down the slippery slope. Besides, how would it have looked if after #3 in the line got sprayed, everyone else dispersed? I guarantee that's what the officers were hoping for, because once you spray em, you HAVE to arrest them.

As for the above quote, I don't know who you're talking to, but the overwhelming majority of people I know and/or talk to are sick to death of these punks and their entitlement garbage and want them to pack it in already. Now, the numbers might be skewed in the sense that I and my friends and acquaintances have exatly zero use for these societal leeches, but to say that the general public isn't wanting this to end is just as ignorant as if I were to say "the general public is calling for every protestor nationwide to be tried for treason." FAR too much of a generalization. Although that statement is far less ignorant than "we represent the 99%." Yeah, not me you don't...

CAcop
11-21-2011, 21:20
Well, there is one solution. Roll patrol car up to protestors. Blast airhorn until they leave. Hand out cotton balls to stop the bleeding from their blown out ear drums.

dooga
11-21-2011, 21:20
As I said elsewhere, I guarantee you that these kids are totally willing to bait a Kent State episode in order to make their case.

So be expecting it, I hate to say, and also don't expect that "within the law" or "I was just following orders" to play out well on the stage of public opinion.

These kids are super media-savvy and much better organized (and educated) than most all of their uniformed adversaries.

They might very well be stinky hippie freaks but they're smart SHFs.

All of this is reverse entrapment for the cameras

msu_grad_121
11-21-2011, 21:25
Well, there is one solution. Roll patrol car up to protestors. Blast airhorn until they leave. Hand out cotton balls to stop the bleeding from their blown out ear drums.

:rofl: 160 db of "get the heck outta my way, hippie!" Personally, I'll take the OC any day...

blastfact
11-21-2011, 21:43
The point is, they are blocking a route which they have no right to block. It's like with kids, give an inch, they take a mile. Give in to this, and you start down the slippery slope. Besides, how would it have looked if after #3 in the line got sprayed, everyone else dispersed? I guarantee that's what the officers were hoping for, because once you spray em, you HAVE to arrest them.

As for the above quote, I don't know who you're talking to, but the overwhelming majority of people I know and/or talk to are sick to death of these punks and their entitlement garbage and want them to pack it in already. Now, the numbers might be skewed in the sense that I and my friends and acquaintances have exatly zero use for these societal leeches, but to say that the general public isn't wanting this to end is just as ignorant as if I were to say "the general public is calling for every protestor nationwide to be tried for treason." FAR too much of a generalization. Although that statement is far less ignorant than "we represent the 99%." Yeah, not me you don't...

I've seen and been on both sides in my life. Feds and Cops lost control of the Cuban riots at Ft. Chaffee in Barling Ar. Citizens in the long run took care of that mess. The Cubans were not citizens! I've faced down the KKK and Skin Heads. Cops would not do it.

On the other hand I was arrested once for not paying fines for being placed in double jeopardy by a corrupt legal system. And I admitted guilt, paid my money and did my restitution. But the cops that arrested me on a false bench warrant never wanted to look at my paper work or question anything. Just following orders like Nazi Troopers. In the end the idiot judge that violated my rights nor the cops ever said were sorry Sir. My recourse sue there ass's. I didn't do it but have a life long resolve to never be arrested again by a corrupt system and there thugs with out a major fight. And I'm a damn good fighter!

Are the cops and legal system so short sighted they cant tell right from wrong? Or do they enforce laws there sworn to without a thought?

If the cops and system think they are seeing resistance now. What do you think they are going to face when people get tired of Nazi Storm Trooper tactics. And there very basic civil rights are trampled on?

What are you going to do?

Sharky7
11-21-2011, 22:00
What are you going to do?

I am going to realize that you are way too far gone on the nut job meter to come back to sanity.

But - if I can just get through to you on 1 point I will be happy. Look up the difference between "there" and "their" and begin to use them appropriately in your future posts. Thanks! :cool:

msu_grad_121
11-21-2011, 22:06
I've seen and been on both sides in my life. Feds and Cops lost control of the Cuban riots at Ft. Chaffee in Barling Ar. Citizens in the long run took care of that mess. The Cubans were not citizens! I've faced down the KKK and Skin Heads. Cops would not do it.

On the other hand I was arrested once for not paying fines for being placed in double jeopardy by a corrupt legal system. And I admitted guilt, paid my money and did my restitution. But the cops that arrested me on a false bench warrant never wanted to look at my paper work or question anything. Just following orders like Nazi Troopers. In the end the idiot judge that violated my rights nor the cops ever said were sorry Sir. My recourse sue there ass's. I didn't do it but have a life long resolve to never be arrested again by a corrupt system and there thugs with out a major fight. And I'm a damn good fighter!

Are the cops and legal system so short sighted they cant tell right from wrong? Or do they enforce laws there sworn to without a thought?

If the cops and system think they are seeing resistance now. What do you think they are going to face when people get tired of Nazi Storm Trooper tactics. And there very basic civil rights are trampled on?

What are you going to do?

First of all, in my state (along with a majority of others), it is illegal to resist arrest "on the side of the road," so to speak. The bench warrant is valid on it's face, so if it was issued in error, that's something you need to address with the court to have set right, which it sounds like you did. If you chose not to sue, that's on you. Saying that you "won't be arrested again" and will bring "a major fight" on any officer who attempts to do so will only end badly for you. Believe me, this is what we do for a living, we don't get paid to lose, so for both your sake and this theoretical officer, make it easy on both of you and seek your redresses in the appropriate forum.

As for why everyone who feels slighted begins calling LEOs "Nazis," I really don't get it. Do none of you ever have anything original to say? Or is it just that by yelling something that everyone universally hates, you feel you'll get sympathy for your cause? If that's the case, allow me to try it on you: You're like Hitler! Your actions are reminiscent of Osama Bin Laden! Attilla the Hun would call us Nazis, and so have you, so therefore YOU must be as bad as Attilla the Hun! See? It makes you sound ridiculous...

As for the "just following orders" thing, let me say this: there was a time in this country when a police officer/sheriff's deputy/etc. had all the discretion to enforce the vast majority of infractions as they saw fit, from arrest right on down to a stern talking-to, and no one thought twice about it. Then, some extremely vocal, self-righteous group of people began to cry foul and say that it wasn't fair that some people are let go for something they were arrested for, and that discretion should be wholly removed from officers hands! "Enforce the laws that are on the books" went the cry, and in response, most departments did what they were asked, and instructed officers to carry out their duties to the letter of the law. Now you cry that enforcement is too strict and that when confronted aobut it, an officer has no defense by saying, "I'm following orders?" Basically, I take from your statement that you want the letter of the law enforced, except when it comes to you. How close am I? Be honest, now.

Give that officer back their discretion, or handle your business in such a manner that you don't earn yourself a bench warrant. Sadly, there is no third way to go.

Chico Bill
11-21-2011, 22:16
As I said elsewhere, I guarantee you that these kids are totally willing to bait a Kent State episode in order to make their case.

Their case for what? They don't even have a frigin' platform. They claim they're the 99% but when they do have some semblance of a goal they spout socialistic and communistic propaganda that wouldn't get 30% of the vote...So they're liars, lazy, entitled, and it's absolutely no surprise to me, as someone who attended and graduated from college (see screen name) that the most egregious of these ignorant fools congregate at universities.

It's easy to find minions to parrot your ideals when you have a captive audience of ignorant and naive teenagers and lazy adults at your un-real social science bubble excuse of a learning environment.

These days I find those who accuse of racism are often the most racist. Those who demand change are often the least likely to accept an opposing view.

Correct me if I'm wrong. These sorry excuse for advocates of social justice are no 1960's throwback...They never will be, because they know nothing about Kent State...They know nothing of the history of what led to those protests...They're a bad rerun that will be forgotten. It won't come soon enough for me.

janice6
11-21-2011, 22:31
So there was a line of protesters locked arm and arm that covered the circumference of the earth? Go around and avoid having your officers pepper spraying the crap out of "peaceful" protesters, thereby hardening the resolve of the protesters and creating a giant ****storm for everyone involved. Anyway, they ultimately went hands on to move the people in the way, which they should have just done in the first place.

And yes Janice6 the police are screwed either way. Mostly, I do not see the general public calling for the squashing of occupiers Nationwide.

MF

Deleted because I'm a guest here.

blastfact
11-21-2011, 22:48
First of all, in my state (along with a majority of others), it is illegal to resist arrest "on the side of the road," so to speak. The bench warrant is valid on it's face, so if it was issued in error, that's something you need to address with the court to have set right, which it sounds like you did. If you chose not to sue, that's on you. Saying that you "won't be arrested again" and will bring "a major fight" on any officer who attempts to do so will only end badly for you. Believe me, this is what we do for a living, we don't get paid to lose, so for both your sake and this theoretical officer, make it easy on both of you and seek your redresses in the appropriate forum.

As for why everyone who feels slighted begins calling LEOs "Nazis," I really don't get it. Do none of you ever have anything original to say? Or is it just that by yelling something that everyone universally hates, you feel you'll get sympathy for your cause? If that's the case, allow me to try it on you: You're like Hitler! Your actions are reminiscent of Osama Bin Laden! Attilla the Hun would call us Nazis, and so have you, so therefore YOU must be as bad as Attilla the Hun! See? It makes you sound ridiculous...

As for the "just following orders" thing, let me say this: there was a time in this country when a police officer/sheriff's deputy/etc. had all the discretion to enforce the vast majority of infractions as they saw fit, from arrest right on down to a stern talking-to, and no one thought twice about it. Then, some extremely vocal, self-righteous group of people began to cry foul and say that it wasn't fair that some people are let go for something they were arrested for, and that discretion should be wholly removed from officers hands! "Enforce the laws that are on the books" went the cry, and in response, most departments did what they were asked, and instructed officers to carry out their duties to the letter of the law. Now you cry that enforcement is too strict and that when confronted aobut it, an officer has no defense by saying, "I'm following orders?" Basically, I take from your statement that you want the letter of the law enforced, except when it comes to you. How close am I? Be honest, now.

Give that officer back their discretion, or handle your business in such a manner that you don't earn yourself a bench warrant. Sadly, there is no third way to go.

What are you going to do when the citizens are fed up with the government, legal system and it's enforcement.

I know you see it. Heck you live it! Are you blind to the over all tension rampit in the country? There is a third way out. It's how we founded this country. It seems to be how we settle big issues.

The poor protesters have not figured out there path. There just a bunch of worthless hippies in some folks mind. I see them as fodder myself to a degree. But middle class America is watching and thinking. And have the mass and power to act on it. And seeing how the government is screwing up. And many have lost faith in the highest court of the land. Much less there Mayor and city counsel.

What are you going to do when it's your neighbor, brother or sister on the other side of the line? It's happened in our country before. :(

Are you truly ready to defend a very screwed up system at the grass root level? What are you going to do if a Kent state action takes place?

msu_grad_121
11-21-2011, 23:15
What are you going to do when the citizens are fed up with the government, legal system and it's enforcement.

I know you see it. Heck you live it! Are you blind to the over all tension rampit in the country? There is a third way out. It's how we founded this country. It seems to be how we settle big issues.

The poor protesters have not figured out there path. There just a bunch of worthless hippies in some folks mind. I see them as fodder myself to a degree. But middle class America is watching and thinking. And have the mass and power to act on it. And seeing how the government is screwing up. And many have lost faith in the highest court of the land. Much less there Mayor and city counsel.

What are you going to do when it's your neighbor, brother or sister on the other side of the line? It's happened in our country before. :(

Are you truly ready to defend a very screwed up system at the grass root level? What are you going to do if a Kent state action takes place?

I'll be honest with you, I DON'T see it. Things are bad, yes, but every generation thinks things have gotten worse and worse as times goes on. Is a revolution or what-have-you coming? I don't think so, because we're not talking about basic human rights, which were addressed with the Bill of Rights. What people these days are upset about are valid points, but in no way, shape or form do they rise to the level that our founding fathers fought the British for, or even what minorities marched for in the Civil Rights Movement. Our inability to feed our latte, SUV and smart phone addiction does not justify revolution, armed or not. And no, these protests and the OWS movement are not a revolution, they are a group of whiney entitled punks who have never had to work for anything in their lives, and therefore don't know how to do anything but throw a temper tantrum.

What will I do when I see my neighbor, brother or sister in a group such as this? I will feel really bad when I lock them up, but everyone who knows me knows that I refuse to compromise my sense of duty, honor and loyalty for anyone, including them.

Blast, you've made it very clear that you feel there's some sort of bloody revolt coming, and that you're willing to take blood for your beliefs. The difference is, I'm willing to give blood for mine. This is the greatest civilization the world has ever seen, and there are processes in place to redress grievences with everyone, including the government at large. Should you choose not to participate in our civilization or play by our rules, that is your choice, but realize that by going outside the rules WE THE PEOPLE chose, you open yourself up to the consequences of those actions, including arrest. Should you decide that armed conflict is the only way you can seek satisfaction, don't be surprised when your force is met with far greater force.

I honestly feel sorry for those persons who claim to see no other way to resolve their issues than some impending bloody coup. If you truly feel slighted enough by the inability to find a job at a pay rate your ego says you deserve, then by all means, do what you feel is necessary. However, keep in mind that it probably won't play out the way you see it in your mind. If you can live with that, fine. If not, I'd beg you to reconsider, for everyone's sake.

Goldendog Redux
11-21-2011, 23:28
Whatever the case, the platform of the protesters is going to evolve into a battle with the police more than anything. It will get worse and the police are starting to play right into the hands of those with an agenda. How far are those in charge willing to go to break up the occupiers and restore law and order? And in a lot of cases is law and order really at stake?

I am not on the side of the protesters. For those who commit legit crimes, arrest them and take them to jail regardless of what the mob thinks. If the rest want to sit on their butts and play bongo drums let 'em who gives a crap.

MF

Chico Bill
11-21-2011, 23:29
What are you going to do when the citizens are fed up with the government, legal system and it's enforcement.

Are you truly ready to defend a very screwed up system at the grass root level? What are you going to do if a Kent state action takes place?

This is in no way a Kent State. In fact, while the protesters themselves have little concept of what, in actuality, they are protesting, one can somewhat infer they are (in-effect) protesting specific govt programs (student loans) and banks, ie: the private sector.

Thus, it's not a matter so much of defending government (these protesters are not interacting with the Federal Govt or (in most part) private sector). They are interacting with local law enforcement, in this case in an aggressive, illegal, and COMPLETELY UNNECESSARY manner. I liken it to a homeowner who intends to shoot a burglar but negligently shoots a neighbor across the street. Why should law enforcement have to defend a system or themselves against a super-minority who has no goal, no platform, and any platform they have is completely misdirected towards and within universities and local arenas. These protesters deserve to be prosecuted for the crimes they committed, but because it is a university, a bastion of liberal wanna-be political correctness, the police will suffer, and the criminals, those who refuse to accept reality and seek to place others in career peril, will walk away scott free, save for an hour or so of pain. Most, if not all LE go through that pain and it is nothing compared to the hatred and life-punishment these protestors desire for anyone who disagrees with their misguided and ambiguous whining.

Defend them and defeat your own legitimate gripes. I said before, and I will say again...They claim 99%. They are LIARS. Their socialistic and communistic rantings wouldn't claim 30%, let alone half, let alone 99% of the vote. If they had a real platform of reasonable complaints it might be different. They don't, and thus associating them with "grassroots" action De-legitimizes the other groups. Kent state? No. Never. What a sad insult to those who actually felt a real need, and a real goal to achieve.

lawman800
11-21-2011, 23:46
The protesters are blocking a public roadway. They dodd not have permits. Colleges still require permits for demonstrations. The police gave the order to disperse and not block the access way. The hippies refused and locked arms. Using proper spray always had been an acceptable crowd dispersal measure. You prefer water cannons?

Facejackets
11-22-2011, 00:40
If a police officer asks me to move, I am going to move. If a police officer TELLS me to move while he is carrying a Costco sized canister of OC, guess what I am going to do? I am going to move, FAST.

I don't think what the police did was out of line.

use2b6L32
11-22-2011, 01:15
By golly! Here's some pictures!

Hippies surround UCD PD (http://www.davisenterprise.com/media-post/ucd-police-remove-occupy-uc-davis-tents/attachment/occupyucd4914/)

What say now, Blastedfacts?

MeefZah
11-22-2011, 03:01
I've seen and been on both sides in my life. Feds and Cops lost control of the Cuban riots at Ft. Chaffee in Barling Ar. Citizens in the long run took care of that mess. The Cubans were not citizens! I've faced down the KKK and Skin Heads. Cops would not do it.

On the other hand I was arrested once for not paying fines for being placed in double jeopardy by a corrupt legal system. And I admitted guilt, paid my money and did my restitution. But the cops that arrested me on a false bench warrant never wanted to look at my paper work or question anything. Just following orders like Nazi Troopers. In the end the idiot judge that violated my rights nor the cops ever said were sorry Sir. My recourse sue there ass's. I didn't do it but have a life long resolve to never be arrested again by a corrupt system and there thugs with out a major fight. And I'm a damn good fighter!


I find paragraph one and paragraph two to be in conflict with one another.

So you are saying that private citizens should form some sort of super posse and face down the protesters, but the police should stick to enforcing illegal warrants and violating the rights of lone individuals?

Can you expound upon these ideas? I want to make sure I get this right. I already enforce illegal warrants against individuals with a certain zeal, but I am a bit shaky on when I need to step aside and let the super posse take over for me when dealing with major situations.

Thank you.

Pepper45
11-22-2011, 04:52
Singing, chanting, carrying signs, passing out pamphlets, pasting your message on billboards, paying for advertising on television, radio, and the internet, those are all examples of free expression. It's a right given by God, and recognized by our constitution.

Blocking a public way, inconveniencing others, hindering the police, those are NOT examples of freedom of expression. Those are examples of crimes. Crimes that due to the number of people involved, have largely not been prosecuted in these instances, possibly causing part of these problems.

If in the first few days of these "protests", a few hundred cops with hats and bats showed up, and ordered them to get out of the public parks, and to disperse when they were breaking the laws about camping in the city, then we wouldn't have this mess months later. The problem is, we have politically minded leadership in LE, and we can't by God offend anyone, lest there be a media storm. So they tried to wait them out, only to have the problem blossom, and to have violent crime erupt within those camps.

This could have been solved within weeks, and if done properly, it would be over, and those 99% clowns could actually focus on building an agenda, and maybe actually work to get some laws changed. Instead of that, they want to live off of the generosity of others, forgo getting a job, a home, and be part of a "movement". Well, something is moving all right, and I think it's the bowels of our nation.

To those who decry the use of pepper spray, fine. We won't use it anymore. We'll put the TASERs away too. Those are inhumane, dontchaknow. We'll go back, and we'll move folks like we used to. Instead of being fine after a 5 second TASER ride, or 45 minutes of OC spray recovery, we'll beat them into handcuffs. I have a helmet, a shield, and 26" of Cocobolo straight stick that will definitely clear some hippy scum out of a street. Problem is, once that street is clear, my co-workers and I will have filled a hospital trauma room with deep tissue bruising, broken bones, and all sorts of interesting injuries. But that's all right, we won't have used that awful nasty pepper spray.

wprebeck
11-22-2011, 05:34
Singing, chanting, carrying signs, passing out pamphlets, pasting your message on billboards, paying for advertising on television, radio, and the internet, those are all examples of free expression. It's a right given by God, and recognized by our constitution.

Blocking a public way, inconveniencing others, hindering the police, those are NOT examples of freedom of expression. Those are examples of crimes. Crimes that due to the number of people involved, have largely not been prosecuted in these instances, possibly causing part of these problems.

If in the first few days of these "protests", a few hundred cops with hats and bats showed up, and ordered them to get out of the public parks, and to disperse when they were breaking the laws about camping in the city, then we wouldn't have this mess months later. The problem is, we have politically minded leadership in LE, and we can't by God offend anyone, lest there be a media storm. So they tried to wait them out, only to have the problem blossom, and to have violent crime erupt within those camps.

This could have been solved within weeks, and if done properly, it would be over, and those 99% clowns could actually focus on building an agenda, and maybe actually work to get some laws changed. Instead of that, they want to live off of the generosity of others, forgo getting a job, a home, and be part of a "movement". Well, something is moving all right, and I think it's the bowels of our nation.

To those who decry the use of pepper spray, fine. We won't use it anymore. We'll put the TASERs away too. Those are inhumane, dontchaknow. We'll go back, and we'll move folks like we used to. Instead of being fine after a 5 second TASER ride, or 45 minutes of OC spray recovery, we'll beat them into handcuffs. I have a helmet, a shield, and 26" of Cocobolo straight stick that will definitely clear some hippy scum out of a street. Problem is, once that street is clear, my co-workers and I will have filled a hospital trauma room with deep tissue bruising, broken bones, and all sorts of interesting injuries. But that's all right, we won't have used that awful nasty pepper spray.

Well said.

We've got a number of good old fashioned riot batons in our armory. For a while, I thought we might needthem, as the local Occupiers were located just across from the entrance to where I work. Thecity moved them a block away, and oddly enough, ours have yet to be *********s who are prone to violence. Good for them....although the drum circles (yes, I'm serious) got old.

CAcop
11-22-2011, 06:11
By golly! Here's some pictures!

Hippies surround UCD PD (http://www.davisenterprise.com/media-post/ucd-police-remove-occupy-uc-davis-tents/attachment/occupyucd4914/)

What say now, Blastedfacts?

Ooooohhhh. They just might be good for lynching* too. I'd have to check the case law.

*lynching means take a person from an officer's custody.

TreverSlyFox
11-22-2011, 06:39
While I think the use of "Pepper Spray" in that situation is debatable in light of the 9th Circuit's ruling on the issue. While the Chief and two Officers have been suspended over the issue, I think a totally different issue should be the cause for the suspension.

The Officers allowed themselves to be surrounded by students because of a TOTAL LACK of "Situational Awareness" by their Incident Command Staff at the least. Then because of the situation the Officers caused, they resorted to "Pepper Spray" to clear an escape route. Whoever was in command "On the Ground" needs to be fired for allowing his people to be surrounded. A prime example of "Tunnel Vision" on the part of the Officers.

Sgt127
11-22-2011, 07:19
So, you and the family are walking along. A group of people form a circle around you and link arms. They tell you that they will not let you pass, and, they will not let you leave. You will do what?

S&WM&PAR15T&G34
11-22-2011, 07:30
Might want to watch this News report. A Federal Court has already ruled on the use of pepper spray against stituations like this.



http://www.news10.net/news/local/article/164029/2/UC-Davis-police-chief-placed-on-administrative-leave-

scottydl
11-22-2011, 07:52
This is a non-story (police officers spraying an active or even passive resister with OC, which we do all the time) that has somehow been turned into a major story. I really don't get it. This is completely within our Use of Force policy, and is the case with UC Davis also according to one of the stories I read in which a police official (Capt. or Lt.) quoted their policy. Of course the majority of publications leave that part out.

Physically picking up and moving a large group of people that are refusing to move would be near impossible, and I'm sure that would have also then required officers to use physical strikes or other pressure point tactics to separate the people holding on to one another. Avoiding a physical altercation by using other methods of persuasive force (OC spray, Taser, etc.) reduced injury to all parties and should always be an officer's goal.

Peaceful protesting on public property is fine, but you cannot block a public way or disobey reasonable demands of public officials in the process. The police had every right to remove them after they refused to remove themselves, despite being given multiple verbal commands and ample time to do so.

kirgi08
11-22-2011, 08:14
Since when did justice become PC?

:faint: :shocked:

acpd541
11-22-2011, 08:43
One thing that needs to be considered is where OC falls on their departments UOF continuum.

Per our policy, OC is just above verbal non-compliance, In this instance, I believe the use of OC was justified.

msu_grad_121
11-22-2011, 09:17
Might want to watch this News report. A Federal Court has already ruled on the use of pepper spray against stituations like this.

It's my understanding that that court ruling was for the manner in which pepper spray was deployed in that particular case (rubbing it "in the faces" of protesters in the building), not for the use of pepper spray as a tool to disperse a crowd such as this. Pepper spray is meant to be (wait for it) sprayed at a subject in order to gain their compliance. I know, seems obvious, huh?

I DO love how that legal analyst was talking about the use of force without regard to the state and/or department's use of force policy. Acpd541 is absolutely right, if their policy says OC comes after verbal noncompliance or whatnot, who is this knucklehead to come in and say that they can't use it unless the subject is actively resisting or actively assaulting? What a tool...

nitesite10mm
11-22-2011, 09:18
If OC spray was within the dept use of force policy, then I see no reason why this...

http://davisenterprise.s3-website-us-east-1.amazonaws.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/OccupyUCD4914.jpg
"UC Davis Police Lt. John Pike warns protesters they may be pepper sprayed if they did not give police a clear path to remove other protesters who had been arrested earlier in the protest." Wayne Tilcock/Enterprise photo

... should violate said policy and result in the Chancellor, Chief of Police, or individual Officers termination. Maybe after a full review this "incident" will untimately end in the officers being put on leave for a few days immediately afterward and that will be the extent of it.

scottydl
11-22-2011, 09:28
Maybe after a full review this "incident" will untimately end in the officers being put on leave for a few days immediately afterward and that will be the extent of it.

I would imagine so. The University would be looking at some major employee lawsuits and more bad press if they took any substantial disciplinary action on the officers, especially considering the proof of verbal warnings above (which generally aren't required for OC usage, heck the Lt. was just being a nice guy an utilizing a little CYA tactic that will probably work out in his favor).

The thing about hippies (old and new) is that they rarely have any impact on the real world. They just fuss and whine for awhile and then move on to the next "cause", and the world watches because it's entertaining... not because they care or plan to follow suit.

acpd541
11-22-2011, 09:34
You know. seeing as how they were all sitting with their arms interlocked, it could have very easy to just clips the probes from a tazer cartridge on the individual at each end
and pulled the trigger. Now that would be worth paying money to see.

lawman800
11-22-2011, 10:27
Can you imagine the stench from the electricity cooking the unwashed grime off the hippies?

Morris
11-22-2011, 10:55
Wonder how many of these "kids" and "staff" will be screaming for officers when the next Virginia Tech occurs on campus . . .

Hypocrites, every one of them.

lawman800
11-22-2011, 11:42
Wonder how many of these "kids" and "staff" will be screaming for officers when the next Virginia Tech occurs on campus.

Every one of them, except those who are curled up in the corner pissing in their pants and crying for mommy. Those won't have the voice to scream in between the tears and choking on the snot as they damn the world for being so unfair.

RussP
11-22-2011, 11:49
Wonder how many of these "kids" and "staff" will be screaming for officers when the next Virginia Tech occurs on campus . . .

Hypocrites, every one of them.I was going to post that yesterday when the UCD Prof questioned why University Police had riot gear and tactical weapons.

Ship A'Hoy
11-22-2011, 11:54
The hippies wouldn't run from OC.

Maybe next time just try plain soap and water, I'll bet they'll run then.

Anyone notice in the pictures how many people had cameras. Seems everyone on the outside of the hippies getting sprayed had cameras. They know how to use the media.

Personally I think OC was used correctly in this instance.

Chuck54
11-22-2011, 12:03
Wonder how much sympathy the protesters would get if they had been blocking a major intersection at rush hour !


Guess they don't use soap and water so don't know to get up and go wash the pepper off.


I vote that the pepper use was proper. That said I think I might have backed off several yards before cutting loose with the spray.


Fire hoses and cattle prods worked well in years past.

Goldendog Redux
11-22-2011, 12:09
You know. seeing as how they were all sitting with their arms interlocked, it could have very easy to just clips the probes from a tazer cartridge on the individual at each end
and pulled the trigger. Now that would be worth paying money to see.

That is a brilliant idea. :rofl:

smokeross
11-22-2011, 12:09
So, you and the family are walking along. A group of people form a circle around you and link arms. They tell you that they will not let you pass, and, they will not let you leave. You will do what?
Sounds like a game of "Red Rover"

Morris
11-22-2011, 14:28
By the way . . .

http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2011/11/it-figures-uc-davis-students-agreed-to-be-pepper-sprayed-before-incident-video/

Wager you a Starbucks that this will be completely glossed over by the so called MSM and some of our "more knowledgeable" posters on this thread.

msu_grad_121
11-22-2011, 15:18
Good catch, Morris. You know, I have to commend the restraint shown by those officers. Multiple warnings, one final plea, and the only persons who got sprayed were those DIRECTLY blocking the pavement and their exit route. It would have been very easy to spray the crowd, the entire ring of people, etc. but those officers used the absolute minimum amount of force possible to gain the desired effects. The fact that the hippies agreed to it is just gravy!

I not only see no wrong doing by the officers, I applaud their actions, restraint and discretion. Now if only their administration would stop trying to hang them out to dry...

Goldendog Redux
11-22-2011, 16:53
By the way . . .

http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2011/11/it-figures-uc-davis-students-agreed-to-be-pepper-sprayed-before-incident-video/

Wager you a Starbucks that this will be completely glossed over by the so called MSM and some of our "more knowledgeable" posters on this thread.

LOL. Very interesting. I am guessing those people will never agree to get seasoned again. I'd probably shoot you if you tried to spray me again. I do have to say that the whole thing was a pretty savvy move on the part of the protesters. They got the footage they wanted and the police played their part perfectly.

While there are enough cameras everywhere, perhaps the police need to start filming things themselves kinda like corrections do when they do cell extractions etc...No reason to let the other guys control the media.

MF

Powermwt
11-22-2011, 17:39
Here is the latest article on if it was justified.

http://www.dailydemocrat.com/news/ci_19389239

The politicians are all over this... siding with the students right to protest the rising cost of tuition.

I see no one winning here but protests could swell from the 2000 to 4000 monday to some major number should the whole student body and the hangers on get motivated.

packsaddle
11-22-2011, 18:00
So, you and the family are walking along. A group of people form a circle around you and link arms. They tell you that they will not let you pass, and, they will not let you leave. You will do what?

That would be a felony here in Texas.

Ergo, at least one person in the circle (the leader, if identifiable) will be staring down the barrel of handgun.

Cubdriver
11-22-2011, 18:42
Shame the cops didn't have a bucket loader - they could have picked them up off the sidewalk (maybe ten feet or so), then dumped 'em on the grass. Less chance of an officer straining his back that way. That might have placated the 'pick them up and move them' crowd.

These idiots are just further proof of the play stupid games phrase. They won their stupid prize. It's remotely possible that they might have learned not to play that stupid game in the future, but I don't hold out much hope. I'm getting sick of seeing and responding to posts on social media sites about how the police are, without provocation, spraying and beating innocent protesters. The police will ask you to move, then they'll tell you to move, then third strike - you're out - they'll MAKE you move. If you're too stupid to move during the first two chances you're given, then in my opinion, you've brought whatever you get upon yourself.

-Pat

msu_grad_121
11-22-2011, 18:43
LOL. Very interesting. I am guessing those people will never agree to get seasoned again. I'd probably shoot you if you tried to spray me again. I do have to say that the whole thing was a pretty savvy move on the part of the protesters. They got the footage they wanted and the police played their part perfectly.

While there are enough cameras everywhere, perhaps the police need to start filming things themselves kinda like corrections do when they do cell extractions etc...No reason to let the other guys control the media.

MF

I don't know if I'd call that move "savvy" per se. To me, it's more about taking one 10 second clip out of context and holding it up for all to see and saying "look at the atrocities we 'peaceful' demonstrators endured, without warning or justification!" When you see the video in it's entirety, as opposed to the main stream media sound bite, things become far more clear. I will say that the average person doesn't look at a video like this and say, "what did you kids do to get sprayed?" Not that you should really need to ask that question, given what you see in the video clip to begin with, but still...

Of course, George Carlin said it best when he said, "Think of how dumb the average person is, and then think that 50% of the people in the world are dumber than that!"

The one thing I will give these protestors is they must have learned well in their journalism classes, because they are certainly trying their best to manipulate the media, but on the other hand, what else are the officers supposed to do when presented with that sort of situation? :dunno:

Brucev
11-22-2011, 19:00
Wonder how many of these "kids" and "staff" will be screaming for officers when the next Virginia Tech occurs on campus . . .

Hypocrites, every one of them.

Apples and oranges. At Vir. Tech, police officers were responding to a crime. Here they were committing a crime.

m2hmghb
11-22-2011, 19:04
Apples and oranges. At Vir. Tech, police officers were responding to a crime. Here they were committing a crime.

Nope. Here they were responding to a crime in progress. Get your head out of your nether regions.

Brucev
11-22-2011, 19:09
"The one thing I will give these protestors is they must have learned well in their journalism classes, because they are certainly trying their best to manipulate the media, but on the other hand, what else are the officers supposed to do when presented with that sort of situation? :dunno:" Looks like the police will have to join the protesters in journalism classes. Because right now the protesters and their supporters are having a field day. The prevalence of cameras has made it impossible to pull stunts like those used by Eugene Conner and his boys. Good.

msu_grad_121
11-22-2011, 19:14
Apples and oranges. At Vir. Tech, police officers were responding to a crime. Here they were committing a crime.

What is this, Bruce? We say "black," you HAVE to say "nazi?" Obvious troll is obvious...

http://zoomley.com/wp-content/uploads/633607470680331650-trolls.jpg

opelwasp
11-22-2011, 19:15
One thing that needs to be considered is where OC falls on their departments UOF continuum.

Per our policy, OC is just above verbal non-compliance, In this instance, I believe the use of OC was justified.

Are some agencies still so stupid that they are using the ladder or stair model?

OC is in our use of force continuum. Our use of force continuum is like interlocking circles (think color wheel). We can jump to any level of force the situation dictates. There is no need to follow a determined order.

dooga
11-22-2011, 19:21
I found out what the Pepper Spray (http://amzn.to/bigpepper) was -- they actually sell it on Amazon -- check out the reviews (http://www.amazon.com/Defense-Technology-56895-Stream-Pepper/product-reviews/B0058EOAUE/), they're pretty acerbic, amusing, and snarky. Worth a look.

msu_grad_121
11-22-2011, 19:24
Are some agencies still so stupid that they are using the ladder or stair model?

OC is in our use of force continuum. Our use of force continuum is like interlocking circles (think color wheel). We can jump to any level of force the situation dictates. There is no need to follow a determined order.

Michigan preaches the "1-plus-1" methodology. As I understand it, they did away with the "staicase" model because it implied that there was only one solution to a situation an officer faces. The continuum now is used as a visual aid to convey that an officer can do anything UP TO a certain level, that being "plus 1" over what the suspect has done/is doing. If those pukes could have been talked out of blocking the officer's path of egress, great. They refused, and the officers moves up the force continuum.

I see what you're trying to say, but personally I think saying that we can "jump to any level of force" opens up a door that certain trolls on here carry to the extreme of "that means you can shoot someone for just blocking your way?!" Obviously, those of us with any common sense know that's a load, but these trolls lack that common sense gene, so... :dunno:

opelwasp
11-22-2011, 19:25
"The one thing I will give these protestors is they must have learned well in their journalism classes, because they are certainly trying their best to manipulate the media, but on the other hand, what else are the officers supposed to do when presented with that sort of situation? :dunno:" Looks like the police will have to join the protesters in journalism classes. Because right now the protesters and their supporters are having a field day. The prevalence of cameras has made it impossible to pull stunts like those used by Eugene Conner and his boys. Good.

How were the officers supposed to respond to this situation?

Well since this was an unlawful assembly, they are to rectify the situation using any and all means possible. Using Physical presence (not effective), verbal commands (not effective), chemical deterrents (very effective), physical force (effective to remove the violators). They are lucky it only went as far as it did. As officers we are justified to use any reasonable means necessary to perform our duties to protect the public. By the way protestors are not the public. They are just part of it, and if we have to protect the rest of the public from them, then this is what happens.

opelwasp
11-22-2011, 19:31
Michigan preaches the "1-plus-1" methodology. As I understand it, they did away with the "staircase" model because it implied that there was only one solution to a situation an officer faces. The continuum now is used as a visual aid to convey that an officer can do anything UP TO a certain level, that being "plus 1" over what the suspect has done/is doing. If those pukes could have been talked out of blocking the officer's path of egress, great. They refused, and the officers moves up the force continuum.

I see what you're trying to say, but personally I think saying that we can "jump to any level of force" opens up a door that certain trolls on here carry to the extreme of "that means you can shoot someone for just blocking your way?!" Obviously, those of us with any common sense know that's a load, but these trolls lack that common sense gene, so... :dunno:

That is probably the stupidest thing I've ever heard.

But if I respond to a scene where a guy is out shooting at people, I am going to pull my gun and lay him down. No verbal commands, no physical force, or pepper spray.

In the 1 plus 1 method that is not going to work.

msu_grad_121
11-22-2011, 19:38
That is probably the stupidest thing I've ever heard.

But if I respond to a scene where a guy is out shooting at people, I am going to pull my gun and lay him down. No verbal commands, no physical force, or pepper spray.

In the 1 plus 1 method that is not going to work.

I'm not saying that on behalf of the 1-plus-1 theory, nor am I saying that I believe you should be able to shoot someone for standing in your way. I'm using sarcasm to get a point across that the trolls on here that see officers in black and immediately make the jump to NAZIS will definitely take something like that out of context, run with it until it flames out, and say something stupid in that vein. If the tongue-in-cheek nature of my post didn't translate, I'm sorry, but you and I and everyone know in our heart of hearts what you'd do if you rolled up on a call of a man with a gun actively shooting at innocent people.

And for the record, that would absolutely work in the 1-plus-1 model.

Brucev
11-22-2011, 19:41
Nope. Here they were responding to a crime in progress. Get your head out of your nether regions.

Keep trying. You may develop an imagination... one day. It will take time. Start quickly. Times wasting.