Federal HST 9mm question/observation [Archive] - Glock Talk

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Andy W
11-22-2011, 19:40
While doing some research, I noticed something interesting about the Federal HST 9mm loads. With most 9mm loads I've seen, the 124 grain +p load generally penetrates shallower but expands more violently. However, it looks like the HST may be different. In several tests, the 147 grain HST actually expanded more than the 124 grain version while still getting a little deeper penetration. I mean, these things are nasty little SOBs. It looks like they regularly reach 0.70" + even with denim while the 124+p usually stays in the .60" range. Why is this? Totally breaks the trend for 147 grain bullets not expanding well.

ABNAK
11-22-2011, 20:05
I'll go ya one better: HST 147gr +P

Does an average of 1021fps from my Glock 19. It's the standard 147gr with a little more "oomph"! It is my carry load.

About 10 or 15 years ago I wouldn't have touched a 147gr 9mm with a 10-foot pole. Bullet design advancements in recent years have actually made it (from everything I've read) one of the top performers in 9mm.

Why does the 147gr HST expand more? Longer bullet, specifically designed to open up at lower velocities, therefore has longer petal length. Those long skivves in the jacket obviously help.

cowboy1964
11-23-2011, 00:01
HST 147 and 147+P tested in gel w/denim here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PNRqrJRq4T0&feature=relmfu

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i67WILeK66Y&feature=relmfu

Bottom line: the standard 147 had a bit more penetration, the +P 147 had a bit more expansion. Both are good but I prefer a bit more penetration. I'm not going to worry about whether I get .6 or .7" expansion but I AM going to be concerned about the difference between 11" and 13" of penetration.

Overall I still prefer a fast 124 but the 147s do shoot softer and that is a factor for fast shooting.

ABNAK
11-23-2011, 06:06
HST 147 and 147+P tested in gel w/denim here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PNRqrJRq4T0&feature=relmfu

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i67WILeK66Y&feature=relmfu

Bottom line: the standard 147 had a bit more penetration, the +P 147 had a bit more expansion. Both are good but I prefer a bit more penetration. I'm not going to worry about whether I get .6 or .7" expansion but I AM going to be concerned about the difference between 11" and 13" of penetration.

Overall I still prefer a fast 124 but the 147s do shoot softer and that is a factor for fast shooting.

Meh, I'll stick with the +P version for this reason: since real-world shootings usually don't have the nice pretty expansion that gel produces (and this is what decreases the penetration) I figure that the extra expansion of the +P is indicative of better performance under "real" conditions. i.e. even if it doesn't expand as well in a two-legged critter, which I would assume to be the case, it will then *likely* have more penetration. Conversely, the standard pressure load would then expand even less and *perhaps* over-penetrate. Make sense?

I love tnoutdoors videos BTW!

sulaco
11-23-2011, 20:06
I really like the performance I am seeing from Federal's HST stuff, too. Modern bullet design has brought the 9mm up to such similar results from the other, larger and/or faster calibers, for the benefits the 9mm gives, it's hard not to justify.

But I can get Speer Gold Dots for about 23 or 24 dollars per box of 50 locally. Until I find HST's that cheap, I'll stick with Gold Dots.

unit1069
11-23-2011, 20:11
ATK's ammo is so close in comparative results that it's hard to pick one that isn't calibrated to perform. Looking at the long ATK videos produced comparing the Speer Gold Dot and Federal's HST versus other ammos there's a lot to like about their ammo, to say nothing about a few other quality ammo companies' products also widely available.

unit1069
11-23-2011, 20:15
But I can get Speer Gold Dots for about 23 or 24 dollars per box of 50 locally. Until I find HST's that cheap, I'll stick with Gold Dots.

Wow, that a great local price! Where I live you can double that price at the local gun shops; that's why I buy online.

SouthernBoyVA
11-23-2011, 21:28
duplicate post - deleted.

SouthernBoyVA
11-23-2011, 21:30
Wow, that a great local price! Where I live you can double that price at the local gun shops; that's why I buy online.

Two and a half weeks ago, I bought Gold Dot 124gr +P LEO loads (53617) for $23.99. Today I ordered another two boxes from the same place at $23.64 per box (yes all were 50-round boxes). Of course you have to pay shipping but you're still ahead of the game at those prices.

The major gun shows in my area generally have a few tables selling Federal HST ammunition in the vicinity of $25+ a box of 50 depending upon caliber.

cadillacguns
11-24-2011, 06:46
Through recent balistic media testing, the 147gr 9mm HST and the 180 gr .40 HST were about the same in velocity, felt recoil, penetration and expansion.

dpadams6
11-24-2011, 08:41
Through recent balistic media testing, the 147gr 9mm HST and the 180 gr .40 HST were about the same in velocity, felt recoil, penetration and expansion.

wow. Interesting...and you can have more in the tube with the 9mm

triggerjerk
11-24-2011, 08:54
The HST 147gr rounds shoot very nice. Mild recoil.

cowboy1964
11-24-2011, 14:02
Through recent balistic media testing, the 147gr 9mm HST and the 180 gr .40 HST were about the same in velocity, felt recoil, penetration and expansion.

I can believe the velocity and penetration but not the recoil or expansion. Their data sheet clearly shows the .40 expanding about .1" more on average than the 9. OTOH, most real world testing I watch (tnoutdoors9, etc) show the .40 expanding not much, if any, more than 9. So I dunno. I still think .40's recoil will be noticeably more though. A 147gr 9mm is VERY soft.

PghJim
11-24-2011, 21:22
If you do not buy into the theory that energy helps, the heavy HST rounds are hard to beat. I think energy plays a factor, so I go light for caliber, but still maybe HST.

cadillacguns
11-25-2011, 06:12
3 Nov 2011 , Delaware County Indiana, Ballistic gelatin test media 20 yards, 45 degrees, 4 layers denim material over gelatin.
Shot#1 P9HST2 out of S&W M&P, (Federal 9mm 147 gr HST lot# 24Z710). penetration 14.50, expanded 0.65, recovered weight 152.4, % weight retention 103.67%.

Shot#2 P40HST1 out of a Sig 229, (Federal .40 180 gr HST lot# P50Z798). penetration 14.0, expanded 0.65, recovered weight 181.5, % weight retention 100.83%.

Felt/perceived recoil about the same shooter noticed, both bullets mushroomed to perfection as advertized. My own later shooting, agreed with testers data.

Speer/Federal ammunition used,(9mm/40/45) etc, (FBI protocol testing used throughout the test to include auto glass) I took the measurements myself.

Anybody want the data E-mail me and I will send it.

cowboy1964
11-25-2011, 16:31
Unless you were comparing felt recoil in the same gun platform you are comparing apples to oranges. The Sig 229 only has a 3.9" barrel while the M&P has a 4.25" barrel. It all adds up.

Calculate the power factor. I guarantee I would be able to tell which is the 9 and which is the 40, unless the 40 was really underpowered.

DannyII
11-25-2011, 20:15
Where can I get 9mm HST on the web? Last week, I ordered some .40 from Streicher's, and it arrived in 3 days. However, now they are out of 9mm 147 grain.

Any suggestions for a site to purchase?

hotpig
11-25-2011, 23:47
Where can I get 9mm HST on the web? Last week, I ordered some .40 from Streicher's, and it arrived in 3 days. However, now they are out of 9mm 147 grain.

Any suggestions for a site to purchase?They never make enough of the 147gr to fill demand so it is hard to come by. I was supposed to get a pallet two weeks ago and it has not arrived. I'm not holding my breath because if it actually shows up before the end of the first quarter 2012 I will be surprised.

Little Joe
11-26-2011, 00:10
Where can I get 9mm HST on the web? Last week, I ordered some .40 from Streicher's, and it arrived in 3 days. However, now they are out of 9mm 147 grain.

Any suggestions for a site to purchase?

http://www.kylesgunshop.com/store.php?seller=KylesGunshop&pd=2271514

cadillacguns
11-26-2011, 03:52
Piggy LMK if and when you get some in.........Thanks!

Andy W
11-27-2011, 09:34
How do distributors get HSTs? Isn't it company policy that they only be sold to LE or Gov't agencies? Doesn't that mean, if they are sold to the public, that they are either from a contract overrrun or that they had been rejected for some kind of QC issues? How can we be sure they are not on the market for the latter reason?

I've read posts on various internet forums where people have had problems with Winchester Rangers and Federal HSTs (ie:bad primers, deformed bullets, squibs) which makes me wonder how much of this stuff gets dumped on the commercial market because it was out of spec. However, I can't say I've ever heard of people having these problems with Speer Gold Dots.

hotpig
11-27-2011, 11:30
LE Distributors get the ammo from the company. They than sell it direct to Agencies or to certain designated dealers. The leak in the supply chain happens when people want to convert inventory back into cash.

You can find factory seconds but they are marked either by designation or a sticker on the box. Winchester uses the Z and Federal uses XM. Gold Dot reclassifies it from LE use by sticker. I had also seen Federal HST first generation with a similar sticker.

I made a business decision two years ago not to stock any of the seconds just so there would not be any confusion.