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G21MAN
11-26-2011, 12:34
Very interesting read. I've been seeing lots of posts here about 9mm fans saying it's just as good as .40 caliber. It goes like this...."my 9mm expands equal to 40 cal in gel, and it penetrates just as good, so I might as well use the caliber that gives me more capacity/ease of follow up shots." Well, this guy says that the 9mm skips off the sternum a lot, and that it incapacitates slowly. He recommends a .45 or at least a .40. It's a long read, and I am only half way through it myself. But it's a good read. Go to: Posted - 12/31/2009 : 03:06:46
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

All:

If you haven't read this aritcle, please do. VERY INTERESTING!! :)

All the best.

Curtis

http://www.gunthorp.com/Terminal%20Ballistics%20as%20viewed%20in%20a%20morgue.htm

This post is from Curtis at concealed carry forum.

Thanks,

G21man

unit1069
11-26-2011, 13:26
I read the article for the first time several years ago. Interesting opinion but for everyone who claims 9mm is a "poor manstopper" there's someone else claiming that all handgun calibers are "poor manstoppers". Remember, all calibers fail and all succeed.

I do subscribe to the idea that a minimum level of power should be a starting point for adequate self-defense and for me that's 9mm caliber. People will nitpick forever about what the best self-defense/ammo combination is and compare it favorably against all others but there are so many variables that come into play in a real shooting that there's really no scientific way to neatly pigeonhole caliber/gun/ammo categories.

Years ago I was involved in martial arts and the debate about "the best fighting technique" came up now and then. I remember the instructor telling us that whether it be karate, judo, boxing, wrestling, etc ... it was all academic. According to him the person who was able to apply his technique first would likely prevail, no matter the technique vs technique situation.

In my mind the same thing can be said for successful self-defense using a firearm. If I'm carrying a 9mm or .38 Special and need to defend myself against someone I know is going to severely harm, maim, or kill me I need to successfully apply whatever system I have at my disposal quickly and accurately before the aggressor is ably to successfully apply whatever deadly armament he has against me. If I'm successful it won't matter one bit if the aggressor happened to be packing a .50 caliber Desert Eagle or any other caliber for that matter.

Tiro Fijo
11-26-2011, 13:40
Guys, this was determined to be Internet MYTH YEARSSSSSS ago.

Ethereal Killer
11-26-2011, 13:43
the pistol caliber war is silliness. there is no significant difference between the big three if you use either FMJ or a QUALITY hollow point in the heaviest for caliber bullets (147,180,230).

The best advice you'll ever get about shooting someone with a pistol is to shoot them repeatedly, quickly and in different places until they stop.

Multiple, rapid succession hits across different organ systems will incapacitate WAAAAAY faster than any difference in diameter.

for me more bullets is more chances to kill or more shots to have to make up for misses before reloading. reloading in the heat of a gunfight is the fastest way to lose. ask any competitive shooter about the dueling tree.

G21MAN
11-26-2011, 13:51
The 9mm has been seen to skip off the sternum and fragment in the body limiting its penetration to vitals. This probably means that the BG continued to throw lead for a longer period of time before he went down. If you guys want to cling to your gel results and your 9mm's that's up to you.

fastbolt
11-26-2011, 14:27
This thing is going around again, huh?

Warp
11-26-2011, 14:58
If you guys want to cling to your real world results and your 9mm's that's up to you.

Edited for accuracy

unit1069
11-26-2011, 16:21
The best advice you'll ever get about shooting someone with a pistol is to shoot them repeatedly, quickly and in different places until they stop.

I was taken totally by surprise this morning reading the GATE Self-Defense forum where Mas Ayoob --- responding to a question --- described "center of mass" (COM) as the abdominal area.

I'd always thought COM was the chest area, which Mas indicated is the proper area to aim initial shots, possibly save for an attacker armed with a knife when targeting the pelvic area may be better to immobilize that specific kind of deadly attack.

I just love the GATE Self-Defense forum for making me think about different scenarios, along with all the other great info available.

Warp
11-26-2011, 16:23
I was taken totally by surprise this morning reading the GATE Self-Defense forum where Mas Ayoob --- responding to a question --- described "center of mass" (COM) as the abdominal area.

I'd always thought COM was the chest area, which Mas indicated is the proper area to aim initial shots, possibly save for an attacker armed with a knife when targeting the pelvic target area may be better to immobilize that specific kind of deadly attack.

I just love the GATE Self-Defense forum for making me think about different scenarios, along with all the other great info available.

COM is upper abdomen IMO. However, many instruct to aim for high COM, which is what I prefer.

unit1069
11-26-2011, 16:43
COM is upper abdomen IMO. However, many instruct to aim for high COM, which is what I prefer.

Mas indicated that the heart area/center chest area is the proper target, which is the exact area I always assumed "COM" referred to. So today I learned COM is a different anatomical description than I had originally thought and I picked up extremely valuable advice about properly targeting a knife-wielding assailant.

fastbolt
11-26-2011, 17:02
If you try some different drills using either the "traditional lower COM" or the upper COM target areas on your threat targets, you may notice that the "upper" aiming area may allow for more misses to fly over the shoulders when some of the things which can adversely affect shooting skills raise their ugly head under stress. Then, introduce different movement of the threat target (try a ducking/bobbing threat target) and/or shooter movement and see how things occur for different folks.

Yes, there are critical structures, vessels and organs in the upper area, especially the heart and aortic arch, but the "upper" COM also encompasses a smaller area. Easier to miss. Easier to over-shoot the shoulders and send shots off elsewhere (just as when missing a "head shot").

Changing the threat targets from among "standard" (wide variance, granted) silhouette targets, to "anatomical/marked" targets, to full-size picture targets (in both B&W and color), as well as obliquely presented picture targets (by which I mean the pictured threat person is portrayed as being partially turned, bladed, etc) ... and you might see even more differences to be considered when trying standard COM v. upper COM. It can be an interesting series of experiments under controlled conditions involving demanding drills.

Something else to look for is how hits can sometimes tend to cluster around the "weapon" pictured in the picture targets, no matter whether the weapon is held at waist level, at side/shoulder or in the center of the chest. Watch your regular folks look surprised when they see hits seemingly "aimed" at the perceived weapon, without them consciously trying to do so. Don't discount the possibility of this happening to some degree in an actual encounter, either. Seeing a dangerous weapon being pointed/thrust in "your" direction, coupled with the expected physiological responses triggered by the hormonal fear response (and not just strenuous muscular activity & tremors), might work against the successful completion of a desired conscious response in some conditions. This is one of the many reasons we train to ingrain the techniques & skills, not only to be able to short-cut to them under stress, but to try and help "inoculate" us against the unavoidable effects of stress.

I'll often use the upper COM for a reason, such as a specific "precision shot", in much the same way as I will a "precision head shot", but I'll also take into consideration the specific circumstances that might present themselves. I try to replicate this in some of the simulated threat target drills which might make the upper COM more practical in the given circumstances (horizontal barriers, body armor, other physical cover obstructions covering the lower COM, etc).

Also, I've invested too many years with my 1-handed indexed/hip shooting technique positioned to place the hits in the traditional COM to try and change that technique at this point. (FWIW, I'm excluding the "speed-rock" technique from this discussion, as I consider that to be a limited application technique/response for a very specific set of conditions.)

These things are always interesting to discuss while working them out on a firing line where experienced instructors of different backgrounds can exchange ideas and test things out.

unit1069
11-26-2011, 17:15
Thanks for the info, fastbolt

These things are always interesting to discuss while working them out on a firing line where experienced instructors of different backgrounds can exchange ideas and test things out.

I'll bet that's right! Unfortunately I'm limited to normal civilian range practice verifying gun/ammo/reliability/accuracy function but have recently had my attention shift towards other important aspects such as good holsters and hand-held lights.

There's really a lot that goes into successful self-defense and I'm not being facetious when I say competitive self-defense ought to be an Olympic sport someday. In a better world free from the idea that individuals must rely upon government as the primary source of personal security, of course.

fastbolt
11-26-2011, 17:26
Unfortunately I'm limited to normal civilian range practice verifying gun/ammo/reliability/accuracy function but have recently had my attention shift towards other important aspects such as good holsters and hand-held lights.


Have you tried to find some IDPA venues near you? Hopefully, where you might run into some local instructors/trainers who might be willing to work on such things?

packinaglock
11-26-2011, 17:27
Thanks for the info, fastbolt



I'll bet that's right! Unfortunately I'm limited to normal civilian range practice verifying gun/ammo/reliability/accuracy function but have recently had my attention shift towards other important aspects such as good holsters and hand-held lights.

There's really a lot that goes into successful self-defense and I'm not being facetious when I say competitive self-defense ought to be an Olympic sport someday. In a better world free from the idea that individuals must rely upon government as the primary source of personal security, of course.

Now that would be interesting.

unit1069
11-26-2011, 19:05
Now that (Olympic competition in personal self-defense) would be interesting.

Of course!

The Olympic biathlon is cross country skiing-rifle shooting competition. What's the rationale for that competition unless it's to exhibit the skills needed to negotiate travel through adverse environmental conditions while confronting wild and dangerous animal predators? In this day and age with thousands of criminals and Islamofascist terrorists stalking potential victims and infidels all over the globe it makes sense to me to highlight the skills needed to thwart these killers. Let's get the ball rolling on my proposal ASAP!

The guy who put down Gerald Loughner, the Arizona killer and assailant who shot Rep. Gabby Giffords, was a legal CCW permit holder who happened to be exiting a retail outlet and able to recognize the situation. The mainstream media doesn't like to publicize this, as we all know, just as the same mainstream media refuses to report on the many successful would-be victims every day who thwart their attackers by recourse to a firearm.

That said, a recognized Olympic event that combined competitive shooting against various scenarios with admission that self-defense is an individual, God-given human right would extend American values around the world and further the historic advancement of individual rights versus the presumed divine right of kings, potentates, czars, and First Comrades who believe in no rule of law.

Merkavaboy
11-26-2011, 20:04
I just love these "stories" from Coroners/MEs. Problem is that they're looking at bodies post-mortem. They're not at the scene watching people being shot by the bullets in real-time. If a bullet hits an attacker in the sternum and bounces off and the attacker immediately breaks off the attack or collapses without firing a shot or hurting someone, then the bullet(s) have done its job. End of story. Full Stop.

The role of ANY SD handgun/ammo combo in a personal SD/LEO shooting is not to KILL the attacker, but to cause an IMMEDIATE cessation of the attacker's ability to injure or kill an innocent person.

Tiro Fijo
11-26-2011, 20:27
The 9mm has been seen to skip off the sternum and fragment in the body limiting its penetration to vitals. This probably means that the BG continued to throw lead for a longer period of time before he went down. If you guys want to cling to your gel results and your 9mm's that's up to you.


So enlighten us. How many 9mm bullets have you personally seen bounce off of a sternum?

G26S239
11-26-2011, 22:36
The 9mm has been seen to skip off the sternum and fragment in the body limiting its penetration to vitals. This probably means that the BG continued to throw lead for a longer period of time before he went down. If you guys want to cling to your gel results and your 9mm's that's up to you.
Yeah, especially BGs with kevlartitanium sternums. :rofl:

BTW 8.2 autopsies per day 365 days per year = 2993 autopsies per year. Deadmeat must be uber dedicated never taking weekends off. According to this http://curiosity.discovery.com/question/how-autopsy-take-to-complete if the autopsy is part of a criminal investigation it can take 4 to 6 hours to complete. @ 8.2 per day X 4 hours per autopsy with no days off Deadmeat was working 498.83 days per year. :upeyes: Where is the story about someone dying from a BB shot to the eye in Atlanta G21MAN? I would expect that case to make national news.

jhoagland
11-27-2011, 02:51
I wanna get a kevlartitanium sternum!

I just took another look at a B-27 and the X ring really is higher than a technical dead center of mass. Using the top of the shoulders and the center of the hip bones, your true center lowers from the sternum to the xyphoid process. (Yes, I know it's an extension of the sternum proper)
The reason I bring this up is because I think things are being over thought. How many real world folk are going to draw thoracic triangles and such in a life or death shoot out. You're just going to try and hit the guy.

Keep it between the shoulders and hips and put more than just one in there. Scales will tip in your favor. After the double tap, re-assess. Still a threat? Bang bang. Assess again. Rinse and repeat. How hard does this have to be?

It should be kept as simple as possible because the adrenaline dump is a mighty, mighty thing to deal with.

I think more training should be addressing that.
Of course as always YMMV.

SouthernBoyVA
11-27-2011, 08:33
The truth of the matter is, you are not going to know how your chosen caliber and load is going to work until you actually shoot someone. And even then, you will only know how it worked for that one specific incident. What this leaves us with is to continually read and learn about ammunition (calibers and loadings), and real world experiences from people who have been there and done that in hopes of arriving at the best possible decision to take for our unique needs. There is one fact that is going to remain a constant in all of this;

"These debates and outright arguments are likely to continue long after many of us are in the ground pushing up daisies. And there are valid points for each side of the argument to consider. But there is one criteria, actually a set of criteria, that should be not only serve as your prime focus, but give you confidence when these questions and arguments arise.

Use the gun/caliber/load with which you can consistently, accurately, and quickly deliver rounds to target time after time. If this means a .45ACP, then that is what you should train with and use. If it happens to be a 9mm or a .40S&W, then spend your time and money training with that caliber. The point is, if you cannot do what was stated in the first sentence of this paragraph reliably and with confidence, you probably need to consider trying another caliber and/or gun."

unit1069
11-27-2011, 11:13
Thanks for the IDPA tip. I think that's going to be my next step.

hotpig
11-27-2011, 11:43
I just love these "stories" from Coroners/MEs. Problem is that they're looking at bodies post-mortem. They're not at the scene watching people being shot by the bullets in real-time. If a bullet hits an attacker in the sternum and bounces off and the attacker immediately breaks off the attack or collapses without firing a shot or hurting someone, then the bullet(s) have done its job. End of story. Full Stop.

The role of ANY SD handgun/ammo combo in a personal SD/LEO shooting is not to KILL the attacker, but to cause an IMMEDIATE cessation of the attacker's ability to injure or kill an innocent person.I have been at the scene of three shootings involving the 9MM. All were one stop shots one drt, one expired on the way to the hospital the third lived on to unsuccessfully sue the City and Officer involved.

cowboy1964
11-27-2011, 15:50
He says the .357 Sig is "gloriously effective" but he wouldn't use it as he is a "big and slow" type of guy. Amazing how a 9mm bullet going 1250 fps is garbage but one going 1350 fps is "gloriously effective".

If 9mm does so poorly against bone then why does it just just as well as .40 and .45 through barriers like car doors and plywood?

He talks about HPs shedding their jackets yet doesn't mention bonded bullets once. He talks about being impressed with Federal's EFMJ. Oh yeah, he also says he thinks hardball may be a good carry choice. Idiotic.

At the end he says doubling the bullet weight doubles the energy so "obviously" the 45 is best. Of course he somehow forgot that velocity QUADRUPLES energy.

Oh, and one final point: gangbangers generally tend to use FMJ and spray their targets. To use that as some kind of "proof" that 9mm sucks is beyond stupid.

cowboy1964
11-27-2011, 15:58
The 9mm has been seen to skip off the sternum and fragment in the body limiting its penetration to vitals. This probably means that the BG continued to throw lead for a longer period of time before he went down. If you guys want to cling to your gel results and your 9mm's that's up to you.

.45 and 9mm have roughly the same sectional density. Both will penetrate roughly the same amount of gel, regardless of what barrier they pass through. In fact sometimes 9mm will even penetrate MORE but all for intents and purposes I call them equal.

Gold Dots and HSTs don't fragment.

Suggest you do more research.

http://le.atk.com/pdf/HSTInsertPoster.pdf

bmoore
11-27-2011, 16:10
I have been at the scene of three shootings involving the 9MM. All were one stop shots one drt, one expired on the way to the hospital the third lived on to unsuccessfully sue the City and Officer involved.

This. In my Fire/EMS career I have been to plenty shootings. Last one was 3 days ago, SWAT standoff with a shooting victim and then the shooter self inflicted one on himself. Shot placement is the key. Im not saying a .380 is a great primary choice. But being competent, knowing your gun and how to shoot it seems way more important. 9mm and up seem like fine choices from what I have seen.

Ethereal Killer
11-29-2011, 00:00
.45 and 9mm have roughly the same sectional density. Both will penetrate roughly the same amount of gel, regardless of what barrier they pass through. In fact sometimes 9mm will even penetrate MORE but all for intents and purposes I call them equal.

Gold Dots and HSTs don't fragment.

Suggest you do more research.

http://le.atk.com/pdf/HSTInsertPoster.pdf

careful now... we dont want to throw too much science in there. Pistols work more on the belief system of the owner and legend than actual science.

I just thank goodness that you didnt point out that the 10mm with a 180 grain shares the same functional sectional density as the 40, 45 and 9. actually IIRC it's a little lower that the 45/9's. that woulda been blasphemy.

:supergrin::whistling:

happyguy
11-29-2011, 01:42
Typically when the shooting starts, people duck and move. If you are aiming high to begin with, then add the upward recoil of the gun to the down and sideways movement of the target, it is possible to lose sight of him and to send subsequent rounds too high.

"Zipper."

Regards,
Happyguy :)

Ethereal Killer
11-29-2011, 09:18
Typically when the shooting starts, people duck and move. If you are aiming high to begin with, then add the upward recoil of the gun to the down and sideways movement of the target, it is possible to lose sight of him and to send subsequent rounds too high.

"Zipper."

Regards,
Happyguy :)

thats EXACTLY why i aim for thier feet and move the gun rapidly side to side while shooting at fleeing bystanders:upeyes:

gadgetnut259
11-29-2011, 11:03
The 9mm has been seen to skip off the sternum and fragment in the body limiting its penetration to vitals. This probably means that the BG continued to throw lead for a longer period of time before he went down..
First of all, I find it hard to believe that a 9mm bullet would skip off a sternum. A skull maybe...if shot at an extreme angle...but not a sternum. I've assisted in several autopsies and they just aren't THAT tuff. Secondly, even if it did happen, it would hurt so bad it's highly unlikely the bg would be shooting back. He'd probably be on the ground writhing in pain.

Warp
11-29-2011, 12:16
Typically when the shooting starts, people duck and move. If you are aiming high to begin with, then add the upward recoil of the gun to the down and sideways movement of the target, it is possible to lose sight of him and to send subsequent rounds too high.

"Zipper."

Regards,
Happyguy :)

My opinion is that aiming the first shot low in anticipation of having the 3rd or 4th shot in a good location is, at best, sub optimal. People tend to move when the shooting starts. Sometimes they close the distance to you or get behind cover. Aim where you really want to hit, right now, starting with the very first round. Don't aim at the gut under the idea that you'll get up to the proper target later.

tsmo1066
12-06-2011, 00:42
Interesting. So the 9mm tends to skip off of sternums while the 45 won't. This despite the fact that according to tests done by the Army in WWII a 9mm will penetrate a steel-pot helmet at 125 yards while the .45 will bounce off of one at 25 yards.

Every report, study and test that I have ever seen shows that 9mm is the superior round against hard barriers, but this guy knows better...

happyguy
12-06-2011, 06:12
My opinion is that aiming the first shot low in anticipation of having the 3rd or 4th shot in a good location is, at best, sub optimal. People tend to move when the shooting starts. Sometimes they close the distance to you or get behind cover. Aim where you really want to hit, right now, starting with the very first round. Don't aim at the gut under the idea that you'll get up to the proper target later.

Depends.

Regards,
Happyguy :)

glock20c10mm
12-08-2011, 21:04
Very interesting read. I've been seeing lots of posts here about 9mm fans saying it's just as good as .40 caliber. It goes like this...."my 9mm expands equal to 40 cal in gel, and it penetrates just as good, so I might as well use the caliber that gives me more capacity/ease of follow up shots." Well, this guy says that the 9mm skips off the sternum a lot, and that it incapacitates slowly. He recommends a .45 or at least a .40. It's a long read, and I am only half way through it myself. But it's a good read. Go to: Posted - 12/31/2009 : 03:06:46
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
All:

If you haven't read this aritcle, please do. VERY INTERESTING!! :)

All the best.

http://www.gunthorp.com/Terminal%20Ballistics%20as%20viewed%20in%20a%20morgue.htm

This post is from Curtis at concealed carry forum.
:phew:, just finished reading the link. Turned out to be a waste of time. Didn't learn anything except that if you only read the first half or less you will go away not realizing that the first half and then some was extremely exaggerated and misleading.

First of all, how many here know the guy is an anthropologist and specifically says he deals mostly with well decayed bodies and that (and I quote); "...in these posts I've detailed what I've SEEN on the autopsy table at least 100 times by actual count."

Add to that his claim that by far the most of the "100" were shot with 380/9mm. Also add to that his claim about also seeing within the "100" some shot with: 357Mag, 40S&W, 45Auto, 44Mag, 22LR, and at least one other.

And he said in the 9mm/380 cases how most of them penetrated properly to the vitals. Though he doesn't spell a lot of this stuff out till much later.

And he said that majority of all the bullets they did out of bodies "is whatever was on sale at Wally World."

He is absurdly off base saying temporary cavity starts to matter with bullets at velocities of 2600 - 2900 fps.

At the same time he says it's his opinion that the 45 is the way to go he also says velocity is more important than bullet weight.

And while pushing the 40 and 45 throughout the whole writeup he says he also has complete faith in 357SIG and 357Mag, just not 9mm or even 9mm+P.

He says he's not schooled in ballistics and is only stating what he's seen in the morgue.

At the same time he won't put any trust in 9mm he also says the 40 and 45 are both effective in ANY load.

He even says at one point he really can't remember any of the specific cases but a very small handful and that all the thoughts on this stuff he put in the write up are generalizations overall.

And with all of the above I've pointed out, every now and then he puts in a comment like this one; "I've noticed MANY times that the 9mm or 380 strikes bone and is deflected into a non-vital area, never reaching vital organs." And yes, he put the word "many" in all caps.

He also complains about the 9mm sometimes fragmenting and how bad of a thing that is to him. Now I'm sure that had nothing to do with the BGs shooting and killing each other with ammo from "Wally World".

All the above are just a few things I made note of showing the write up to be little more than a complete joke. There's plenty more. Not to mention the fact that the write up leaves more unanswered questions than it answers. Not to mention the lack of anything in the writeup relating to INCAPACITATION, while only dealing with deaths.

Anyone choosing a carry load based on that writeup has been completely and thoroughly misled. I'm certainly NOT saying there were no good facts to take away from the writeup overall, even if not many. But in relation to choosing a carry round the writeup overall is useless.

Snowman92D
12-08-2011, 22:06
...but he wouldn't use it as he is a "big and slow" type of guy.

Yeah...my 5th grade teacher said that about me one time. :okie:

janice6
12-08-2011, 22:54
I found the write-up to be very interesting.

Thank you OP.

G31
12-10-2011, 10:03
I'm not even going to give the article the time of day. The quotes I see here are enough to make the source less-than-credible. However, the side comment about COM is interesting to me, as I've always been trained that it is the heart/mediastinum. This would make the most sense to me because the heart and great vessels are the only organs in the thorax that can reliably lead to quick incapacitation. Abdominal structures (only those located below the diaphragm are abdominal, with few pathological exceptions) are not reliable for stopping someone fast, physiologically. Of course, most will stop with a gunshot anywhere, but we are talking physiology, not psychology. I also don't buy into the pelvic shots for the same reason. (Yes, I've seen patients in the hospital who walk around on broken hips, not even suspecting it to be the problem.) The rest of the chest...a lot of air and lung tissue, which does not reliably incapacitate either. I will continue to aim for the mediastinum, as this is the best chance of putting someone down involuntarily.

Keep in mind all untreated GSWs will likely lead to death or incapactitation, but the time element involved in the physiological stop pretty much makes them useless in the short time frame of a gunfight.

Psychology, or the "I give up" mentality is a totally different ballgame, so please keep that in mind when reading this post. I did not venture there.

unit1069
12-11-2011, 17:22
However, the side comment about COM is interesting to me, as I've always been trained that it is the heart/mediastinum. This would make the most sense to me because the heart and great vessels are the only organs in the thorax that can reliably lead to quick incapacitation.

That's also why I was so surprised to read the different description of COM. I think there's general agreement that the sternum/heart area is a preferable description for effective target takedown COM designation than middle or upper abdominal area designation even when experts deem the latter a more traditional "center of mass" body location. I'm confident the experts know where they're aiming if and when the critical time comes even if it digresses from the "book" definition of COM.

Jeff82
12-11-2011, 21:17
Center of Mass is what it is. Not arms, not legs, not head. Body. Center of. Shooting COM is designed to increase hits. Not be more lethal. (Well, in a way it is more lethal cause theoretically you'll have more wounding being done.) Your group size at the range may tell you you can afford to shoot for a different point of aim without getting off target but that's not the group that counts. It's your group during your life or death shoot. And until that happens all you can do is hope it's close in size to your range time group.