Cleaning the AR Bolt [Archive] - Glock Talk

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wdphillips
11-27-2011, 08:24
I was cleaning my son-in-law’s Bushmaster bolt carrier assembly last night. I am not sure it has ever been apart. There is a lot of hard built up fowling on the bolt, just behind the gas rings. I also noted that the inside of the carrier where the bolt seats has similar fowling. This stuff is hard and crusty!

What is the best way to clean this stuff off?

bmoore
11-27-2011, 08:34
Slip 2000 carbon killer may work on it. Its hard when they get neglected for that long. Some build up is ok, there not going to stay pristine. I read somewhere of a solution somebody made for this kind of stuff. Get a tupperware tub- fill it a couple inches high with half odorless mineral spirits and half liquid breakfree CLP, then let the parts soak in the solution.

MAJINKONG
11-27-2011, 08:36
Try this.

Use toothbrush and scrap it further.

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41arHCneaDL._SL500_AA300_.jpg

faawrenchbndr
11-27-2011, 09:30
I use some Motorcraft Carburetor Cleaner. I immerse the bolt and let it
soak overnight.

USMC03Grunt
11-27-2011, 09:33
For the tail of the bolt, simply use the open end of a cleaning rod like a scraper and go around that area to break off the large chunks then use an old bore brush to polish away the rest of it.
As for the inside of the bolt carrier on that shelf, one trick is to use old dental picks to scrape away those deposits. Myself, I use a trick I learned in the Marines of using a large patch soaked with CLP laid over the hole on the bolt carrier. Then I use a stripper clip to push that patch down while twisting against the bottom of that hole so the patch and clip are against that shelf. Keep doing that like you are cleaning the barrel (wet patch, dry patch, wet patch, dry patch, etc.) until they come out clean. Not sure how well that is going to work since it sounds like your son-in-law really let things go but if you do this on a routine basis, it's not a problem getting that carbon out.

thunderbat
11-27-2011, 09:35
You may need to actually scrape the crud off as well, they make them specially designed for the AR bolt and carrier.

USMC03Grunt
11-27-2011, 09:37
Then again, has your son in law ever shown any interest in an AK? If he's not into doing maintainence to keep things working correctly, he might want to consider the peasant gun that is more forgiving of neglect.:whistling:

wdphillips
11-27-2011, 09:51
Then again, has your son in law ever shown any interest in an AK? If he's not into doing maintainence to keep things working correctly, he might want to consider the peasant gun that is more forgiving of neglect.:whistling:


Good point! But he is an F-16 pilot, he gets to shoot the big guns. I get to keep and clean the small ones while he is gone.

MrMurphy
11-27-2011, 10:04
Then he needs to be *****slapped, because I know for sure he doesn't maintain that M61 20mm either.

Glockdude1
11-27-2011, 10:13
Then he needs to be *****slapped, because I know for sure he doesn't maintain that M61 20mm either.

:rofl:

pag23
11-27-2011, 10:17
Ouch Mr Murphy.. that what the ground crew is for.. :)

Even though I don't shoot my guns all the time, I make sure to clean them at least every other trip to the range if not the same day... ( I don't like dirty weapons) My glock gets a cleaning every other range trip..

I have been tempted to get the Berryman B12 parts cleaner gallon and soak the BCG items in it if I get a heavy build up if I want to spend all day at the range.

For cleaning, I use the Mpro7 kit from Brownells in addition to an old nylon firm toothbrush (replaced yearly) a little TW25, and CLP. The bolt does get a bit of build up on it so I would recommend a good lube to keep it managable. Haven't got a change to order Slip 2000 yet.....

Gunnut 45/454
11-27-2011, 10:43
wdphillips

Sounds like he needs to run the gun wet! I do and all I have to do is wipe the BCG down and relube and it's done. No matter how many rounds I put through it. Encrusted carbon shows the gun was run dry or with improper lube! I use 5w30 motor oil and the carbon doesn't build up at all! Tell your Son thanks for his service from a Retired Egress guy! He'll get it as he sits on my system every flight! ACES II !:supergrin:

faawrenchbndr
11-27-2011, 11:31
Ouch Mr Murphy.. that what the ground crew is for.. :)
.....


Naw,.....that's why Crew Chiefs have weapons pukes! :tongueout:

wdphillips
11-27-2011, 12:00
You may need to actually scrape the crud off as well, they make them specially designed for the AR bolt and carrier.

The specialty tool!

http://www.magna-matic-defense.com/CRT-15-Carbon-Removal-Tool-p/crt-15.htm

faawrenchbndr
11-27-2011, 12:06
Dang,........$40 for a carbon scraping tool! :wow:

I've been using the same cleaner to soak bolts in for going on three years!
And it only cost me $3.95 at the Ford Dealer!

humanguerrilla
11-27-2011, 12:57
Dang,........$40 for a carbon scraping tool! :wow:

I've been using the same cleaner to soak bolts in for going on three years!
And it only cost me $3.95 at the Ford Dealer!

There are several types of these scrapers and several all in one ar tools and kits have different varieties.

The Magnamatic linked above is what I use--one in 556 and 308. The one end scrapes the bolt tail and can be used for other scraping and as a punch. The other end fits inside the BCG and makes quick work of stubborn buildup. Definitely worth $40 for the time it will save over the course of a shooting lifetime.

plouffedaddy
11-27-2011, 13:53
My unit uses simple green to get crap like that out. Just cut it 1 to 1 with water and let it soak for a few days. It'll come right off and no special tool required.

MrMurphy
11-27-2011, 14:47
Sometimes you don't have a couple days, or Simple Green.

That's why the CAT tool was designed.

http://www.laruetactical.com/ar15-tool-combat-applications-cat-m-4


Won't get it 'white glove' clean, but it'll get the major crap off and keep the gun running.

WoodenPlank
11-27-2011, 14:56
As others have said, keeping the bolt wet will go a long way to making it much easier to clean. The CAT tool is amazing for getting built up carbon off of the bolt, as well.

Stevekozak
11-27-2011, 15:23
My unit uses simple green to get crap like that out. Just cut it 1 to 1 with water and let it soak for a few days. It'll come right off and no special tool required.
You have your M-4 out of commission for several days? :dunno::dunno::dunno:

USMC03Grunt
11-27-2011, 15:30
Good point! But he is an F-16 pilot, he gets to shoot the big guns. I get to keep and clean the small ones while he is gone.


Ah, the fighter mafia. Yeah, I've taught them too. Generally, they come into the class with the attitude "why should I have to learn this since my war is at 20,000 feet?" I simply brought up the name Captain Scott O'Grady and that would have a tendency to take a bit of wind out of their sails. No place to remember how to make an M9 work when you're dangling out of a parachute at 12,000 feet because a SAM flew up your tail pipe! Sorry but the Air Force is probably the worst branch I ever seen when it comes to weapons maintainence.

faawrenchbndr
11-27-2011, 16:50
...... Sorry but the Air Force is probably the worst branch I ever seen when it comes to weapons maintainence.

Sadly,I can agree with that,.......:faint:

MrMurphy
11-27-2011, 22:39
Agreed. Even among Security Forces troops. They know what CATM teaches, and that's not always right.

Oddly enough, I've guarded the hangar O'Grady left from....

Reb 56
11-27-2011, 22:45
Sometimes you don't have a couple days, or Simple Green.

That's why the CAT tool was designed.

http://www.laruetactical.com/ar15-tool-combat-applications-cat-m-4


Won't get it 'white glove' clean, but it'll get the major crap off and keep the gun running.

CAT Tool works very well.

arclight610
11-27-2011, 23:05
I just used a pocket knife as a scraper tool in the field. I still do.

Glock21Owner
11-27-2011, 23:54
Hmm. . . tried to post a link to B-tach but it edited my post

plouffedaddy
11-28-2011, 09:02
You have your M-4 out of commission for several days? :dunno::dunno::dunno:


Yup. I just did as I was told my friend.

lloydchristmas
11-29-2011, 07:26
The specialty tool!

http://www.magna-matic-defense.com/CRT-15-Carbon-Removal-Tool-p/crt-15.htm

I'm the department armorer for a small police department. After each training and use, I get to clean the rifles. I have and use this tool, and I love it. A real time saver.

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USMC03Grunt
11-29-2011, 08:54
I'm the department armorer for a small police department. After each training and use, I get to clean the rifles. I have and use this tool, and I love it. A real time saver.

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Do you mean that the shooter doesn't have to clean his own weapon and leaves that to the armorer to clean the mess he's made? I guess if it was me using that weapon, I wouldn't trust anyone else's cleaning job and prefer to do it myself.

MrMurphy
11-29-2011, 10:18
Same.... especially with some of the 'armorers' i've dealt with... no way in hell were they cleaning MY weapon.

Batesmotel
11-30-2011, 08:39
6 years USMC infantry. Use a phosphor bronze tooth brush and solvent of your choice. Simple.

lloydchristmas
12-01-2011, 01:47
Do you mean that the shooter doesn't have to clean his own weapon and leaves that to the armorer to clean the mess he's made? I guess if it was me using that weapon, I wouldn't trust anyone else's cleaning job and prefer to do it myself.


Yup. We have shared squad cars, and duty rifles are kept in the cars. We do not have a rifle for each Officer.

Being the armorer, and knowing just how little most of the other Officers actually know about the rifle, I am more than happy to clean and inspect each rifle after each and every use. Sad, but many have to be given refresher training on rifle operation during our firearms trainings. This is why I don't mind cleaning them.

As a matter of fact, I don't want ANYONE taking apart "my" rifles.

gryphthemyth
12-09-2011, 02:30
KZ CRT on ****** Tactical

TangoFoxtrot
12-09-2011, 08:03
I use some Motorcraft Carburetor Cleaner. I immerse the bolt and let it
soak overnight.

Absolutely! Carb cleaner gets the job done

Mayhem like Me
12-09-2011, 08:24
best thing ever CLP and a green or red scotchbrite pad......thank me later.

fnfalman
12-09-2011, 14:33
Damn, how the hell did I ever keep my M16 clean all those years in the service without a specialty cleaning tool?

MrMurphy
12-09-2011, 14:40
Same way I did, with a lot of time and cussing.

Still, after 40+ years, someone did figure out a better mousetrap.

faawrenchbndr
12-09-2011, 16:27
Damn, how the hell did I ever keep my M16 clean all those years in the service without a specialty cleaning tool?


Yep,........CLP & a basic cleaning kit is all that you REALLY need.

fnfalman
12-11-2011, 13:42
Same way I did, with a lot of time and cussing.

Still, after 40+ years, someone did figure out a better mousetrap.

If you had to cuss while using the GI cleaning rod to clean out the carbon in the bolt and bolt carrier area, then you're doing something wrong. But please, go ahead with the Gucci Swiss Army Knife if that makes you happy.

MrMurphy
12-11-2011, 14:11
Oh, I wasn't cussing at the parts, but the 19 yr old 'armorers' who actually thought they knew anything.

Yes, A1C, that tiny speck of carbon behind the gas tube will cause the earth to stop rotating, your mind to explode, stop you from any chance of losing your virginity before 30 and of course, you will fail to sign off on my weapon.....

I've used the CAT tool. Considering it was developed by a couple Special Forces guys not to get the gun 'white glove' clean, but running weapons which (presumably running suppressed) got so filthy during operations that even 'add more lube' did not help, the CAT was designed to give you, if you had a minute, the ability to pop the BCG out, take it down, and get enough crap off that it would remain functional. It has it's place in the world.

It's not a gucci cleaning tool (though often used that way), more of a last-ditch "still need the gun running and don't have time to fully clean it" tool.

fnfalman
12-11-2011, 17:27
So, give me an example of a firefight that consumed so much ammunition and ran so long that you'd have to use a Gucci Special Forces designed cleaning tool to keep the gun running?

bmoore
12-11-2011, 17:39
So, give me an example of a firefight that consumed so much ammunition and ran so long that you'd have to use a Gucci Special Forces designed cleaning tool to keep the gun running?

I like your style.......a lot. But this is an internet forum, real world experience need not apply. Its better to post up just enough info to keep people on hook.

faawrenchbndr
12-11-2011, 17:44
Please do not feed the trolls,........:faint:

bmoore
12-11-2011, 18:31
And when asked about real world experiences.........toadies to the rescue with accusations of being trolls or "you just dont get it" or "you have no clue". Followed quickly by a closed thread. Classic.

faawrenchbndr
12-11-2011, 18:52
And when asked about real world experiences.........toadies to the rescue with accusations of being trolls or "you just dont get it" or "you have no clue". Followed quickly by a closed thread. Classic.


I'm just stating the obvious. Ask fnfalman, he'll admilt to trolling.
He does it quite often.

P.S.
I've never had an issues in 27 years of shooting the M16/AR15 platform
to where I just HAD to clean the bolt tail to keep the wepon in operation.
I've always seen the bolt tail get to a certain point of carbon build-up
then it seemed to stop. However, this was WITHOUT the use of a suppressor.
Running one is supposed to carbon up the bolt a great deal more.

faawrenchbndr
12-11-2011, 18:57
........toadies to the rescue....

Ok,......so now I'm a "toadie"?! :rofl:

bmoore
12-11-2011, 20:12
Well we both have something in common, we both state the obvious. And after taking a long look at the obvious I take back the word toadie. Minion or lackey is much more acurate, its not an insult dont get me wrong. Its just well................the obvious. Its all good man, I work with a few everyday. Chasing the captain all around the station, tugging at their coat tails.

Back to cleaning the bolt. I like 99.9% of people on this Black rifle forum have never been in a gunfight. So when I usually go down to the desert, shoot 3-400 rounds and an hour or two later I am home. So I soak it down with Mpro7 and take a microfiber rag to it and it gets it clean. Pretty anit-climatic I know. Im not hunkered down with rounds over my head having to scrape my bolt to get my gun up and running. Im pretty sure nobody in this black rifle forum has done it either. My grandpa did use axle grease on a garand in the pacific though while in combat, not in a carbine class.

WoodenPlank
12-11-2011, 20:23
So, give me an example of a firefight that consumed so much ammunition and ran so long that you'd have to use a Gucci Special Forces designed cleaning tool to keep the gun running?

Burning through two basic combat loads on a job, and having just enough time back at the FOB to knock the crud out of the BCG, lube it, and grab more ammo before going back out.

Disclaimer: I haven't been through that situation personally, but I have plenty of friends that have.

fnfalman
12-11-2011, 20:57
I'm just stating the obvious. Ask fnfalman, he'll admilt to trolling.
He does it quite often.

P.S.
I've never had an issues in 27 years of shooting the M16/AR15 platform
to where I just HAD to clean the bolt tail to keep the wepon in operation.
I've always seen the bolt tail get to a certain point of carbon build-up
then it seemed to stop. However, this was WITHOUT the use of a suppressor.
Running one is supposed to carbon up the bolt a great deal more.

I'm trolling because I ask for a real life example where a fancy cleaning kit is needed to keep a rifle running in a firefight?

Even when you shoot the gun with a suppressor, how many rounds does it take to gum up the action so badly in a firefight that you have to use this fancy cleaning tool to keep the gun running?

fnfalman
12-11-2011, 21:01
Burning through two basic combat loads on a job, and having just enough time back at the FOB to knock the crud out of the BCG, lube it, and grab more ammo before going back out.

Disclaimer: I haven't been through that situation personally, but I have plenty of friends that have.

Two basic combat loads equal to 420-rounds. I've burned up more than that at the end of the fiscal year at the range so that we can get rid of unused training ammo. I'm no fan of the Mattel Toy, but it takes more than a couple of thousand rounds through it without cleaning before the gun starts to choke. Even then a quick shotgun of the receiver, pop out the bolt carrier & bolt, run a chamber brush into the chamber, swab the chamber a bit, do the same thing to the bolt and carrier. Takes a couple of minutes at most and don't need no special cleaning tool.

Here's a hint: the design had been around for fifty years. It isn't like it just came on the market yesterday.

MrMurphy
12-11-2011, 21:19
A guy i used to work with (Army, infantry) ran through a double combat load in one day and was in continous contact for about a week. So it does happen.

From what I remember, the CAT was designed by a couple SF guys, running suppressed, heavy dust areas, and it wasn't to clean the bolt tail. It's mostly to get the gunk out of everything else on the BCG.

Absolutely necessary? No, they probably can do it the old way. But for a tiny 2" or so long piece of metal specifically shaped to get the gunk out of certain spots and keep something running? Sure, why not.

I don't use one personally. But i'm not about to tell the guys who had the piece designed for a specific role they DON'T need it. Because I'm not them, and not where they are.

Most people don't need a cat tool, and the other one, definitely not. But guess what. Free market. The tool does have a purpose, nobody's forcing you to buy one.

JaPes
12-11-2011, 21:19
Why is everyone arguing? I'm reading this thread trying to pick up tips on how to clean an AR bolt because I need to know how to do it for the first time.

From what I can read, simple methods work just fine. The bolt cleaning tool just makes it easier, but not necessarily better.

Darkangel1846
12-11-2011, 22:09
Soak it in Hopps for a short period of time then brush it with a brass tooth brush, it will clean it with ease.

faawrenchbndr
12-12-2011, 03:36
I'm trolling because I ask for a real life example where a fancy cleaning kit is needed to keep a rifle running in a firefight?



I'm just giving you a rash of shiOt. I thought you knew me better.
I could care less.

There ARE a few people that I listen to, one is MrMurphy.

faawrenchbndr
12-12-2011, 03:37
Why is everyone arguing? I'm reading this thread trying to pick up tips on how to clean an AR bolt because I need to know how to do it for the first time.

From what I can read, simple methods work just fine. The bolt cleaning tool just makes it easier, but not necessarily better.

Soak it in Hopps for a short period of time then brush it with a brass tooth brush, it will clean it with ease.


Even better if you soak it overnight. I prefer to use Motorcraft Carburetor Cleaner.
Kano Kroil ans Sea Foam also work very well.

JaPes
12-12-2011, 05:55
Even better if you soak it overnight. I prefer to use Motorcraft Carburetor Cleaner.
Kano Kroil ans Sea Foam also work very well.

Thanks! I already have Sea Foam & Motorcraft Carb Cleaner in the garage.


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WoodenPlank
12-12-2011, 07:36
Two basic combat loads equal to 420-rounds. I've burned up more than that at the end of the fiscal year at the range so that we can get rid of unused training ammo. I'm no fan of the Mattel Toy, but it takes more than a couple of thousand rounds through it without cleaning before the gun starts to choke. Even then a quick shotgun of the receiver, pop out the bolt carrier & bolt, run a chamber brush into the chamber, swab the chamber a bit, do the same thing to the bolt and carrier. Takes a couple of minutes at most and don't need no special cleaning tool.

Here's a hint: the design had been around for fifty years. It isn't like it just came on the market yesterday.

Most of the time, you're right. But there are situations where it comes in handy. For the rest of us, it does make things a little easier. I don't own one, but have tried out one belonging to a buddy, and it works well.

Why is everyone arguing? I'm reading this thread trying to pick up tips on how to clean an AR bolt because I need to know how to do it for the first time.

From what I can read, simple methods work just fine. The bolt cleaning tool just makes it easier, but not necessarily better.

Keeping the bolt properly lubed with a quality lube (Slip 2k is my choice) goes a long way, too. Just having the bolt oiled makes it a lot easier to get all the gunk off.

Even better if you soak it overnight. I prefer to use Motorcraft Carburetor Cleaner.
Kano Kroil ans Sea Foam also work very well.

My dad use carb cleaner and swears by it. The only gun I ever get dirty enough to need it is my AR, but I never worry that much about it. If I get bored enough to do a full cleaning, I'm breaking out the dental picks, just to give me something to do.

MAJINKONG
12-12-2011, 09:05
OT..
This is all about cleaning the bolt, but what about the Carrier?
Does the carrier easily gets dirty and really must be cleaned like the bolt?

WoodenPlank
12-12-2011, 09:11
OT..
This is all about cleaning the bolt, but what about the Carrier?
Does the carrier easily gets dirty and really must be cleaned like the bolt?

It needs cleaning, too. The inside surfaces of the carrier (where it meets the bolt) need cleaning, but the surface of the carrier rarely needs more than a wipe down.

crazymoose
12-12-2011, 09:12
OT..
This is all about cleaning the bolt, but what about the Carrier?
Does the carrier easily gets dirty and really must be cleaned like the bolt?

The carrier will get a dusting of carbon, but the really crucial area is the chrome-lined area inside the carrier where the bolt rides. This (along with the bolt tail and gas rings) is the rifle's gas piston.

Eurodriver
12-12-2011, 09:40
Why is cleaning the rear of the bolt, behind the gas rings, necessary?

Especially to the extent of scraping away at it with a metal tool?

Lets assume for a second we don't have some idiot USMC SNCO forcing you to do it.

WoodenPlank
12-12-2011, 09:49
Why is cleaning the rear of the bolt, behind the gas rings, necessary?

Especially to the extent of scraping away at it with a metal tool?

Lets assume for a second we don't have some idiot USMC SNCO forcing you to do it.

I would imagine that enough buildup could cause issues with the bolt going fully into battery from the extra friction.

fnfalman
12-12-2011, 10:11
I would imagine that enough buildup could cause issues with the bolt going fully into battery from the extra friction.

You're right. That area gets caked on real quick like.

fnfalman
12-12-2011, 10:16
A guy i used to work with (Army, infantry) ran through a double combat load in one day and was in continous contact for about a week. So it does happen.

From what I remember, the CAT was designed by a couple SF guys, running suppressed, heavy dust areas, and it wasn't to clean the bolt tail. It's mostly to get the gunk out of everything else on the BCG.

Absolutely necessary? No, they probably can do it the old way. But for a tiny 2" or so long piece of metal specifically shaped to get the gunk out of certain spots and keep something running? Sure, why not.

I don't use one personally. But i'm not about to tell the guys who had the piece designed for a specific role they DON'T need it. Because I'm not them, and not where they are.

Most people don't need a cat tool, and the other one, definitely not. But guess what. Free market. The tool does have a purpose, nobody's forcing you to buy one.

I personally don't care who use what to clean their weapons with. However, I do question validity of certain cleaning tools. Just because these guys are "Special Forces", it doesn't mean that they know more about weapons usage than me or others.

Special Forces soldiers during the Vietnam War had expended a lot more ammunition in night long firefights than any other wars since then. VCs used to try to storm firebases with thousands of screaming, doped up cannon fodders. How many thousand Jihadists had tried to storm any of the firebases in Afghanistan or Iraq?

The weapon system had been invited since the late 1950s. If there were really a need for a special cleaning tool, especially during its heavy usage in the Vietnam War, somebody would have already done it.

As far as "in contact" for a whole week...he shot his weapon continuously without a break? Even Battle of the Bulge wasn't that intense.

Of course, entrepeneurism should be encouraged. If people wish to pay $40 for a scraper then by all means. Keep American economy going any which way you can.

Boxerglocker
12-12-2011, 10:26
I use 100 LL aviation gasoline (no bad smell, rinses clean) in my 1 gallon parts washer can with a spring base strainer. A 1 hour soak a little brush and scrub with scotchbrite pad, rinse in clean gas and blow dry with a compressed.
When the gas in the can gets really dirty I filter it through a couple of coffee filters and add it to my 2 stroke gas can with extra oil for my weed wacker / leaf blower.

WoodenPlank
12-12-2011, 10:50
I personally don't care who use what to clean their weapons with. However, I do question validity of certain cleaning tools. Just because these guys are "Special Forces", it doesn't mean that they know more about weapons usage than me or others.

Special Forces soldiers during the Vietnam War had expended a lot more ammunition in night long firefights than any other wars since then. VCs used to try to storm firebases with thousands of screaming, doped up cannon fodders. How many thousand Jihadists had tried to storm any of the firebases in Afghanistan or Iraq?

The weapon system had been invited since the late 1950s. If there were really a need for a special cleaning tool, especially during its heavy usage in the Vietnam War, somebody would have already done it.

As far as "in contact" for a whole week...he shot his weapon continuously without a break? Even Battle of the Bulge wasn't that intense.

Of course, entrepeneurism should be encouraged. If people wish to pay $40 for a scraper then by all means. Keep American economy going any which way you can.

Except the weapon system has changed since Vietnam. Most issued weapons are using carbine gas systems, shorter barrels, higher gas pressures, etc. Plus, with suppressors being common place in the SOF community (and becoming more common in main line units), and exacerbating the carbon buildup, a specialized tool can definitely come in handy. It may not be something EVERYONE needs, but it damn sure has a use.

For the record, I have had a couple friends that were basically in running gun battles for several days in a row. Tora Bora is a solid example of that, as is the firefight near Debecka, Iraq early in the war there (admittedly, that was more stand-off weapons, but still). It may not be the norm, but it certainly does happen.

Doc8404
12-12-2011, 11:42
Burning through two basic combat loads on a job, and having just enough time back at the FOB to knock the crud out of the BCG, lube it, and grab more ammo before going back out.

Disclaimer: I haven't been through that situation personally, but I have plenty of friends that have.

Glad you added the disclaimer, but you should stick to telling your own stories. :upeyes:

WoodenPlank
12-12-2011, 11:44
Glad you added the disclaimer, but you should stick to telling your own stories. :upeyes:

People asked for examples, I gave examples.

MrMurphy
12-12-2011, 13:36
In contact, meaning a running fight.

They weren't shooting the whole time, but they were moving, not sitting waiting with time to do stuff.

And yes, the M16 has changed quite a bit in 40-50 years in some ways.

Like I said, i don't use one, but i know people who do see a need for it, and they've got a hell of a lot more training and experience than all of us put together.

faawrenchbndr
12-12-2011, 15:02
Thanks! I already have Sea Foam & Motorcraft Carb Cleaner in the garage.


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Soak overnight, clean with a tooth brush. :supergrin:

fnfalman
12-12-2011, 15:14
Except the weapon system has changed since Vietnam. Most issued weapons are using carbine gas systems, shorter barrels, higher gas pressures, etc. Plus, with suppressors being common place in the SOF community (and becoming more common in main line units), and exacerbating the carbon buildup, a specialized tool can definitely come in handy. It may not be something EVERYONE needs, but it damn sure has a use.

Wow, I didn't realize that rifles are that complicated nowadays. It is not as if special ops units haven't used suppressors in other wars, or heaven forbids, guns with operating rods.

For the record, I have had a couple friends that were basically in running gun battles for several days in a row. Tora Bora is a solid example of that, as is the firefight near Debecka, Iraq early in the war there (admittedly, that was more stand-off weapons, but still). It may not be the norm, but it certainly does happen.

Right, once again, running gun battles without a stop for five or ten minutes...

fnfalman
12-12-2011, 15:16
In contact, meaning a running fight.

They weren't shooting the whole time, but they were moving, not sitting waiting with time to do stuff.

Uh huh, the Lurps and the Rangers had never done that before in any other war.

And yes, the M16 has changed quite a bit in 40-50 years in some ways.

I know, I know, rails, multiposition collapsible stocks, optics. Big changes to the operrating mechanism, right?

Take a Vietnam era GI and give him an M4 and he'll be all baffled because of the changes? He wouldn't know how to disassemble and reassemble that weapon? He wouldn't know how to maintain that weapon because it's like night and day from the M16 that he was issued?

fnfalman
12-12-2011, 15:36
I'm not trying to be difficult but when people started quoting special ops this and special ops that and how this war is so different than other wars, I'd just want to know some specifics. Not I heard from so and so, or "Special Forces" guys done it like this. But give me some specifics.

I've done a few patrols in my life, even fired a few odd and angry shots. Never an extended battle or a running gunfight, but I have spoken with people who had done so and did some lessons learned. I'm not beyond learning new things, but some of the proposed stuff are just too farfetched for me to take seriously.

Let's take for example, a group of Lurp/Rangers/SF or even a plain jane grunt patrol that somehow got entangled into a firefight with some bad guys. Either you're chasing them (if you outnumber them or they have high value targets), or they're chasing you (they outman your asses). When do you have time in a running gunfight to stop and do any sort of quickie maintenance at all? You're either up your ass in alligator and running/shooting for your life, or you're chasing down the natives like mad men. And if you were to have the time to stop and take a respite, by the time you shotgun your weapon and whip out this fancy CAT tool, you can already take out a section of cleaning rod and go to town with your bolt/bolt carrier/chamber. Unless somehow you're telling me that you leave your cleaning kit behind and but carry a bottle of CLP and this CAT tool?

Scenario two, you're in such a heavy firefight that you'd expend thousands of rounds in a day or two worth of fighting without even an hour or half an hour of respite to eat, crap, piss or much less doing basic field maintenance. How is it possible for this scenario to happen?

faawrenchbndr
12-12-2011, 15:41
....Take a Vietnam era GI and give him an M4 and he'll be all baffled because of the changes? He wouldn't know how to disassemble and reassemble that weapon? He wouldn't know how to maintain that weapon because it's like night and day from the M16 that he was issued?

Everyone knows Vietnam era Grunts never cleaned weapons! :tongueout:

crazymoose
12-12-2011, 20:01
Why is cleaning the rear of the bolt, behind the gas rings, necessary?

Especially to the extent of scraping away at it with a metal tool?

Lets assume for a second we don't have some idiot USMC SNCO forcing you to do it.

As long as the crap doesn't get caked on to the point that it's built up to the same diameter as the gas rings, it's a non-issue. Chip off the big chunks and keep it at a minimum, but don't waste your time getting it white glove clean. A completely clean AR is either one that's almost never shot, or one that's owned by a guy who doesn't value his free time.

MrMurphy
12-13-2011, 04:02
I have handed a modern M4 to a Vietnam era GI. My dad.

He hadn't handled an M16 since 1991 on any regular basis (occasional range trips over a once per decade or so limit), so yeah, the front end (rails, lights, optic) threw him off.

After a minute he realized it was still basically an M16, no further issues.

I don't know what your issue is fn, i've done my time too. I don't see the need for most of the tools, but when a good-sized chunk of a SF A team goes out of their way to have a company specifically manufacture a tool for them? I'm not gonna tell them they don't need it.

fnfalman
12-13-2011, 09:55
I don't know what your issue is fn, i've done my time too. I don't see the need for most of the tools, but when a good-sized chunk of a SF A team goes out of their way to have a company specifically manufacture a tool for them? I'm not gonna tell them they don't need it.

If you're willing to defer to everything that the snake eaters do, then by all means. As for me, I'll use my own judgment and experience to evaluate everything that people claim to be the latest and greatest. Especially something that's as simple as cleaning a weapon that had been around for fifty years.

faawrenchbndr
12-13-2011, 15:04
Cheese and rice,........whay did I even open this thread?! :faint:

Glockdude1
12-13-2011, 17:20
Cheese and rice,........whay did I even open this thread?! :faint:

Next in the Kalashnikov Klub, "Cleaning the AK bolt".

:tongueout:

faawrenchbndr
12-13-2011, 17:25
Next in the Kalashnikov Klub, "Cleaning the AK bolt".

:tongueout:


Crikey,.......:faint:














:rofl:

wdphillips
12-13-2011, 17:39
Sometimes you don't have a couple days, or Simple Green.

That's why the CAT tool was designed.

http://www.laruetactical.com/ar15-tool-combat-applications-cat-m-4


Won't get it 'white glove' clean, but it'll get the major crap off and keep the gun running.


I wound up purchasing the CAT (Combat Application Tool) M-4 tool from LaRue. It was about $20 but... well worth it. Not only did it scrape the crude off the bolt but was invaluable for the inside of the carrier. The built up carbon on the inside of the carrier was very heavy. This little tool helped scraped it right out.

I used it on all 3 of my ARs, then liberally used a CLP (Cleaner Lubricant Protector) on the bolt and carrier.

BTW the acronyms used in the AR world are numerous and sometimes perplexing. It would be nice to have a sticky that defines them all (if that is even possible)! I seem to use Google a lot.

pag23
12-14-2011, 17:57
I use 100 LL aviation gasoline (no bad smell, rinses clean) in my 1 gallon parts washer can with a spring base strainer. A 1 hour soak a little brush and scrub with scotchbrite pad, rinse in clean gas and blow dry with a compressed.
When the gas in the can gets really dirty I filter it through a couple of coffee filters and add it to my 2 stroke gas can with extra oil for my weed wacker / leaf blower.

Good tips and being "environmental friendly" with reusing it... Nice dog! I also have a white boxer.

pag23
12-14-2011, 18:00
Crikey,.......:faint:


:rofl:

Next is cleaning the Glock Gen 4 recoil spring!!

faawrenchbndr
12-14-2011, 18:22
Good tips and being "environmental friendly" with reusing it... Nice dog! I also have a white boxer.

I've been reusing the same can for about a year. Just dump it back in.

Next is cleaning the Glock Gen 4 recoil spring!!

What's a Glock Gen 4? :tongueout:

Glockdude1
12-14-2011, 18:35
Next is cleaning the Glock Gen 4 recoil spring!!

I am waiting for the "How long can I keep ammo on stripper clips" thread.....


:rofl: