HR 218 Exemption on Magazine Capacity? [Archive] - Glock Talk

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federali
11-27-2011, 10:19
With the most recent changes in HR 218, does anyone know if current/former LEOs are exempt from magazine capacity restrictions in the handfull of states restricting capacity to ten rounds?

Steve in PA
11-27-2011, 11:23
They did not address the magazine capacity restriction.

Patchman
11-27-2011, 12:24
^^^ The recent changes did not address ammo capacity. It only addressed ammo restrictions (ie: N.J.'s "no hollow points") by removing that type of restriction.

I would imagine if you're still a working LEO, and you carried your duty gun/approved off-duty under LEOSA, capacity would not be an issue. If you're retired, then I don't know.

Trigger Finger
11-27-2011, 12:57
Please, correct me if I am wrong, but I think that the magazine capacity is a non issue if you obtained them legally. Like you still have them after you retire! The issue on the magazine capacity is if you are obtaining them afterwords, like through the mail or from someone else! :dunno:

Hack
11-27-2011, 13:00
I don't know. Should I carry my usual tool up to the northeast this summer I may go ahead and go by magazine restriction to help keep out of any trouble that could erupt from it, since I am pretty much on my own anyway for off duty purposes. In which case I may get myself a gun that carries bigger bullets.

Officer X
11-27-2011, 14:10
Personally speaking, if you're an out of state LEO with valid creds, the last thing I'm going to worry about is your mag capacity or if you have hollowpoints.

That's just my opinion though.

Steve in PA
11-27-2011, 15:34
^^^^^ Hopefully very true, however......until they addressed the hollowpoint ammo issue, we all "heard" about the numerous arrests that were made in NJ, but none ever seemed to make it to LEO web sites or publications!

Patchman
11-27-2011, 16:59
Personally speaking, if you're an out of state LEO with valid creds, the last thing I'm going to worry about is your mag capacity or if you have hollowpoints.

That's just my opinion though.

Yes, this is how I would want it to work out in real life - especially for the retired LEOs. I was looking at it from what the black letter law actually said (or didn't say). I certainly don't want to be the test case.

lawman800
11-28-2011, 01:38
Please, correct me if I am wrong, but I think that the magazine capacity is a non issue if you obtained them legally. Like you still have them after you retire! The issue on the magazine capacity is if you are obtaining them afterwords, like through the mail or from someone else! :dunno:

My understanding is that out of state LEO's on official duty is considered a CA peace officer while in state under our penal code so the same exemptions for large capacity feeding devices (our lingo for regular capacity magazine over 10 rounds) would apply to them as long as they are working.

Off-duty LEO's here on vacation or whatever who are carrying under LEOSA are not considered CA peace officers but rather, civilians who have carry privileges under federal law. As such, they would not be exempt from the law prohibiting the importation of large capacity feeding devices into this state, unless the magazine was already in the state prior to the ban.

There is some weird loophole about the magazine being in the state and then you move outside of the state and now you're coming back or something but I didn't read into it much.

As a practical matter, I wouldn't give a rat's arse if you are an off duty carrying under LEOSA and had a beta mag on your AR pistol which you concealed under your tank top and cargo shorts, but unfortunately, I can't speak for all of my brethren and some overzealous DA's who want to make a name for himself.

mrsurfboard
11-28-2011, 10:20
^^^ The recent changes did not address ammo capacity. It only addressed ammo restrictions (ie: N.J.'s "no hollow points") by removing that type of restriction.

I would imagine if you're still a working LEO, and you carried your duty gun/approved off-duty under LEOSA, capacity would not be an issue. If you're retired, then I don't know.

Funny part is NJ retired Officers still can't carry hollowpoint in NJ as per the NJSP.

Ajon412
11-28-2011, 12:24
Funny part is NJ retired Officers still can't carry hollowpoint in NJ as per the NJSP.

http://www.fop.net/legislative/issues/hr218/hr218faq.pdf

Page #3: S.1132

Can I carry any type of firearm or ammunition under this law?

No. The exemption provided under this Federal law applies to the carriage of concealed firearms only. The definition of “firearm” in this statute specifically excludes machine guns, silencers, explosives or other destructive devices as these terms are defined in Federal law.
However, recent amendments to the Federal law do extend the exemption to allow the carriage of ammunition “not expressly prohibited by Federal law or subject to the provisions of the National Firearms Act.” This means that qualified active and retired law enforcement officers may carry ammunition in States which may have prohibited the possession of certain ammunition by persons not actively serving in law enforcement within that State.

I just checked the NJSP website and apparently it hasn't been updated since 03/10 (for Retired PO carry permits) or to reflect the new changes......Go figure.....:dunno:

Sippo
11-28-2011, 13:23
Just attended a 4-hour seminar sponsored by Sheepdog Academy (http://hr218leosa.com/?page=home) on LEOSA. Magazine restrictions do apply to off-duty carry under LEOSA. Steve Mannion, Esq., in fact listed the usual suspect States that magazine restrictions apply. This was a seminar intended for LEO's, active and retired.

Patchman
11-28-2011, 15:34
LEOSA's black letter law doesn't address this ammo limit restriction. AFAIK, no case law is relevant on this point. So, unfortunitely, Mr. Mannion's legal opinion seems to be on point.

How many states have ammo limit restriction? CA and NY. Who else?

cowboywannabe
11-28-2011, 15:50
carry you duty gun, as in issued by the department. if youre challenged in a commie state about its magazine capasity what can they do under leosa? arrest you? seize your duty gun and let the attorney generals fight it out? would be an interesting test case and id like to see a jury's decision on it, not a judge's.

Patchman
11-28-2011, 16:18
^^^ That's why I don't see this as an issue for off-duty LEOs carrying in those states.

For the retired LEOs, I'd like to see black letter law allowing them to carry mags they were issued as LEOs. Or at least, (requiring them to meet the shooting qualifications of the state where they reside) allowing them to use the same mag capacity as that of their resident state's LE.

mrsurfboard
11-29-2011, 00:26
carry you duty gun, as in issued by the department. if youre challenged in a commie state about its magazine capasity what can they do under leosa? arrest you? seize your duty gun and let the attorney generals fight it out? would be an interesting test case and id like to see a jury's decision on it, not a judge's.

Many County Prosecutors in NJ forbid Officers from taking their dept issued weapons out of state. Liability reasons they say.

mrsurfboard
11-29-2011, 00:30
http://www.fop.net/legislative/issues/hr218/hr218faq.pdf

Page #3: S.1132



I just checked the NJSP website and apparently it hasn't been updated since 03/10 (for Retired PO carry permits) or to reflect the new changes......Go figure.....:dunno:

From what I've heard recently on this, the prohibition still applies to NJ retirees. They recommend either critical defense, power balls or EFMJs to circumvent the stupidity of NJ. Also permits for retired carry in NJ are backed up at least 6 months. Almost seems like they don't even want retired cops carrying here.

lawman800
11-29-2011, 00:54
Sounds about right for Jersey. Wonder how CA is implementing their retiree CCW's for those agencies which are dicking their own people around.

Ajon412
11-29-2011, 04:42
From what I've heard recently on this, the prohibition still applies to NJ retirees. They recommend either critical defense, power balls or EFMJs to circumvent the stupidity of NJ. Also permits for retired carry in NJ are backed up at least 6 months. Almost seems like they don't even want retired cops carrying here.

I'm not sure just how many Troopers are assigned to the RPO Permit Unit. Maybe 4949 can chime in on this one....:dunno:

DaBigBR
11-29-2011, 11:38
carry you duty gun, as in issued by the department. if youre challenged in a commie state about its magazine capasity what can they do under leosa? arrest you? seize your duty gun and let the attorney generals fight it out? would be an interesting test case and id like to see a jury's decision on it, not a judge's.

Carrying the department issued duty gun while off duty is actually prohibited by more agencies than you would think.

lawman800
11-29-2011, 12:49
Some departments actually require you to carry your issue with you, at least to and from work. You can leave it at home, but they don't want it at the station. A few places have experienced locker room crime and didn't want their issue weapon exposed to the possibility.

cowboywannabe
11-29-2011, 15:03
Some departments actually require you to carry your issue with you, at least to and from work. You can leave it at home, but they don't want it at the station. A few places have experienced locker room crime and didn't want their issue weapon exposed to the possibility.

you mean cops would steal?!:rofl:

lawman800
11-29-2011, 18:09
you mean cops would steal?!:rofl:

Shocking, ain't it? But the specific instances I heard about involving stolen weapons were unauthorized people getting into the locker room.:crying::dunno::shocked:

glockjeeper
11-29-2011, 18:09
How many states have ammo limit restriction? CA and NY. Who else?

CA, HI, NY are 10rd.
NJ is 15rd.
I know there are others, but can't think of them right now.

BULLRUNN
11-29-2011, 18:57
If your a COP or RETIRED COP and I or one of my guys come across you I/WE dont give a Rats behind if your packing hollow points or even 33 round mags. As long as you shoot the bad guys, have the correct creds and not pointing the gun at ME/US.. your good to go.. we get alot of NYPD guys down here for vacation and everytime we come across them the last thing we worry about is MAGS AND AMMO..most of the time it is giving directions to the bars and where to park for free..I/WE dont care if their packing a bazooka as long as it does not go off in my direction carry on...we believe in ODO carry here...we are having gun battles and murders almost every couple days.. Hell my wife packs a j Frame 38...like every place you will always have that ONE who will lock up his mother for Jwalking but we try to correct that thinking on my platoon...

fla2760
11-29-2011, 19:09
My understanding is that out of state LEO's on official duty is considered a CA peace officer while in state under our penal code so the same exemptions for large capacity feeding devices (our lingo for regular capacity magazine over 10 rounds) would apply to them as long as they are working.

Off-duty LEO's here on vacation or whatever who are carrying under LEOSA are not considered CA peace officers but rather, civilians who have carry privileges under federal law. As such, they would not be exempt from the law prohibiting the importation of large capacity feeding devices into this state, unless the magazine was already in the state prior to the ban.

There is some weird loophole about the magazine being in the state and then you move outside of the state and now you're coming back or something but I didn't read into it much.

As a practical matter, I wouldn't give a rat's arse if you are an off duty carrying under LEOSA and had a beta mag on your AR pistol which you concealed under your tank top and cargo shorts, but unfortunately, I can't speak for all of my brethren and some overzealous DA's who want to make a name for himself.


I had occasion to contact the NYPD license bureau a while back with a question on if we decide to move back to NYC what are the steps to have my NYC carry permit reinstated. I was told that it would be issued after a background check in case I became a felon in retirement and that the NYS law re 10 round magazine capacity would apply to me. If we were going to move back I would contact the NYPD legal bureau for further clarification. I was also told if I bring any firearms into NYS while in the process of moving I would have 48 hours to voucher them at the precinct that my home is in. I would then have to wait for my NYC carry permit to be issued before I could retrieve them. I asked about LEOSA and the guy said contact the legal bureau. I love Florida.

lawman800
11-29-2011, 19:18
CA, HI, NY are 10rd.
NJ is 15rd.
I know there are others, but can't think of them right now.

Yeah, I can think of many places safer than CA, NY, HI, and NJ.

Ajon412
11-29-2011, 20:16
I had occasion to contact the NYPD license bureau a while back with a question on if we decide to move back to NYC what are the steps to have my NYC carry permit reinstated. I was told that it would be issued after a background check in case I became a felon in retirement and that the NYS law re 10 round magazine capacity would apply to me. If we were going to move back I would contact the NYPD legal bureau for further clarification. I was also told if I bring any firearms into NYS while in the process of moving I would have 48 hours to voucher them at the precinct that my home is in. I would then have to wait for my NYC carry permit to be issued before I could retrieve them. I asked about LEOSA and the guy said contact the legal bureau. I love Florida.

Don't you just love it....:dunno: I guess he helped you decide NOT to move back.....:rofl::rofl:

SAR
11-29-2011, 23:09
Please, correct me if I am wrong, but I think that the magazine capacity is a non issue if you obtained them legally. Like you still have them after you retire! The issue on the magazine capacity is if you are obtaining them afterwords, like through the mail or from someone else! :dunno:

Recently, I was on the phone with the California Department of Justice, Firearms Section when I posed this very question, and they said that technically, no one could bring a high capacity magazine into the State of California. He said that LEOSA covered firearms, but that magazines were not covered. He did go on to say no one had ever been "popped" for a magazine violation though.

California Peace Officers are covered as long as you legally obtained the 10+ round magazines while still active.

SAR
11-29-2011, 23:14
Personally speaking, if you're an out of state LEO with valid creds, the last thing I'm going to worry about is your mag capacity or if you have hollowpoints.

That's just my opinion though.

I for one never worry about the local uniforms. It's always the higher-ups and prosecutors you have to worry about... It could be something as innocent as thwarting a robbery in progress while off-duty in a foreign jurisdiction. By the time the attorneys get through, they will have given the crook immunity in exchange for his testimony against you and then they will end up charging you for brandishing and CCW... :rofl:

lens
11-30-2011, 09:31
LEOSA's black letter law doesn't address this ammo limit restriction. AFAIK, no case law is relevant on this point. So, unfortunitely, Mr. Mannion's legal opinion seems to be on point.

How many states have ammo limit restriction? CA and NY. Who else?

MA :upeyes:

carry you duty gun, as in issued by the department. if youre challenged in a commie state about its magazine capasity what can they do under leosa? arrest you? seize your duty gun and let the attorney generals fight it out? would be an interesting test case and id like to see a jury's decision on it, not a judge's.

Well in MA, Mass Chiefs assn was dead-set against LEOSA and so they have implemented their warped policies as law (Code of Mass Regs) that directly violate the Fed Law and haven't updated since the changes last year (and last I was told by the Exec Office of Public Safety atty, they had no intent of making any changes in the near future). Add to that some unsigned, undated memos from EOPS to every police chief and DA in MA that advised that active officers (MA officers here) can not legally possess any large-cap mags (other than pre-ban, mfd on/before 9/13/1994) and must leave their issued large-cap mags at the PD at the end of every shift! :shocked:

With that attitude towards their own, you can be sure that the higher ups are just cruising for bruising to prosecute any LEO they can for this chicken**** . . . and it is a 10 year felony in MA.

As for street officers, almost all will give a pass to any visiting officer as long as the visitor doesn't act foolishly. But every department has that one who is looking for a "rep" and would indeed arrest his mother for jaywalking.

cowboywannabe
11-30-2011, 09:50
With that attitude towards their own, you can be sure that the higher ups are just cruising for bruising to prosecute any LEO they can for this chicken**** . . . and it is a 10 year felony in MA.


seems to me that violating a right "given" by federal law would settle up nicely for the off duty cop.

lawman800
11-30-2011, 12:12
Does MA have the exemption for repair kits like CA where we can buy new parts to refurbish old preban magazines? You can replace old parts with new parts and have eventually have a whole magazine with new parts. You just can't have more whole magazines than you started with.

Landric
11-30-2011, 14:25
My department prohibits taking our issued weapons out of state. We are more than welcome to exercise our rights under LEOSA, but we have to do so with personally owned weapons. I have no interest in visiting most of the restricted states (if I never see NY or NJ it will be too soon), but if I do, I'm going to carry something like a Glock 36 or a revolver, no issues there.

carry you duty gun, as in issued by the department. if youre challenged in a commie state about its magazine capasity what can they do under leosa? arrest you? seize your duty gun and let the attorney generals fight it out? would be an interesting test case and id like to see a jury's decision on it, not a judge's.

Since LEOSA doesn't exempt officers from state magazine bans a jurisdiction that has one absolutely could prosecute an off-duty LEO for illegal possession and likely win a conviction. Should they? Of course not, but they could and legally they wouldn't be wrong. I have no desire to be the test case, do you?

federali
11-30-2011, 14:58
There's an additional wrinkle in the NYS law that non-residents should be aware of. Pre-ban magazines are grandfathered and legal in New York State. However, New York City has its own code and magazines exceeding 10 round capacity are illegal regardless of when they were made. So, I keep a couple of ten-rounders available for my G19 specifically for entering the People's Republic of NYC. I too don't want to be a test case in an ultra-liberal, leftist, gun-hating environment.

I was the senior firearms instructor for 30 years and I still practice weekly on a police range. I think ten rounds would be enough. I don't know of any gunbattle in recorded American history where an LEO killed ten people in a single gunbattle.

Ajon412
11-30-2011, 15:23
MA :upeyes:



Well in MA, Mass Chiefs assn was dead-set against LEOSA and so they have implemented their warped policies as law (Code of Mass Regs) that directly violate the Fed Law and haven't updated since the changes last year (and last I was told by the Exec Office of Public Safety atty, they had no intent of making any changes in the near future). Add to that some unsigned, undated memos from EOPS to every police chief and DA in MA that advised that active officers (MA officers here) can not legally possess any large-cap mags (other than pre-ban, mfd on/before 9/13/1994) and must leave their issued large-cap mags at the PD at the end of every shift! :shocked:

With that attitude towards their own, you can be sure that the higher ups are just cruising for bruising to prosecute any LEO they can for this chicken**** . . . and it is a 10 year felony in MA.

As for street officers, almost all will give a pass to any visiting officer as long as the visitor doesn't act foolishly. But every department has that one who is looking for a "rep" and would indeed arrest his mother for jaywalking.

Are you referring to rifle mags or handgun magazines with a capacity of more than 10 rounds?

fastbolt
11-30-2011, 15:40
There's an old saying in risk management .... Predictable is preventable.

Whenever I traveled out-of-state before my retirement I never thought to take the agency-owned weapon (equipment) with me under LEOSA. Not when I wasn't involved in official agency business when out-of-state. Why needlessly create the potential for an issue?

I took my own weapon(s). Simple.

Now that I'm retired, if I were to choose to visit a state where there were some ammunition and/or magazine capacity restrictions in place, I'd similarly avoid potential problems and misunderstandings by simply complying with them.

The weapons I choose to carry for LEOSA purpose are either revolvers or my smaller pistols with magazine capacities of 6-10 rounds, anyway. That should avoid any potential issues when it comes to capacity restrictions for magazines over 10-rds ... and I'd comply with any ammunition restrictions. Why risk potential problems?

cowboywannabe
11-30-2011, 16:23
Landric, give us an updated report on your bulldog in the snubby forum!

4949shooter
11-30-2011, 16:32
I'm not sure just how many Troopers are assigned to the RPO Permit Unit. Maybe 4949 can chime in on this one....:dunno:

I don't have the number in my head, but there aren't many in the unit. They are also responsible for conducting investigations. There is a huge backlog in the firearms unit. It takes about three months for handgun permits to go through. The secretaries do most of the leg work.

cowboywannabe
11-30-2011, 17:18
Holy crap, 3 months to get a permit?! you can buy a gun, actually have it in your hand in half that time, but its three months for a piece of paper?

4949shooter
11-30-2011, 19:46
Holy crap, 3 months to get a permit?! you can buy a gun, actually have it in your hand in half that time, but its three months for a piece of paper?

It's crazy I know..

Steve in PA
11-30-2011, 20:10
Three months?? Holy not-wanting-retired-LEOs-to-carry-crap!!!

In PA, you find an instructor on MPOETC's website, contact them, set up a date. Show up with the required form filled out, required ID, etc. Receive instruction in the use of force for a non-LEO, then shoot the COF. The instructor signs the RLEIA Card and send the retired officer to the sheriffs department.

The sheriffs department does their thing and the retired LEO is good to go. All can be accomplished in one day if everything goes right.

lawman800
11-30-2011, 20:34
Here is another question, if leosa defines who is qualified, including separated leos who have ten years, can a department deny you the recognition necessary to get your carry rights under leosa?

fla2760
11-30-2011, 20:36
There's an additional wrinkle in the NYS law that non-residents should be aware of. Pre-ban magazines are grandfathered and legal in New York State. However, New York City has its own code and magazines exceeding 10 round capacity are illegal regardless of when they were made. So, I keep a couple of ten-rounders available for my G19 specifically for entering the People's Republic of NYC. I too don't want to be a test case in an ultra-liberal, leftist, gun-hating environment.

I was the senior firearms instructor for 30 years and I still practice weekly on a police range. I think ten rounds would be enough. I don't know of any gunbattle in recorded American history where an LEO killed ten people in a single gunbattle.

This is correct, I take my Smith model 60 and my 642 when traveling to NYC. I qualify with revolver and semi-auto every year under LEOSA.

Steve in PA
11-30-2011, 21:33
Here is another question, if leosa defines who is qualified, including separated leos who have ten years, can a department deny you the recognition necessary to get your carry rights under leosa?

If your former department refuses to give you an ID card, you're screwed.

DaBigBR
12-01-2011, 09:08
Here is another question, if leosa defines who is qualified, including separated leos who have ten years, can a department deny you the recognition necessary to get your carry rights under leosa?

What would stop them?

lawman800
12-01-2011, 09:40
What would stop them?

If you separate after ten years, but do not retire, what creds would you get from an agency? I don't know any that exists of that type.

DaBigBR
12-01-2011, 10:08
If you separate after ten years, but do not retire, what creds would you get from an agency? I don't know any that exists of that type.

I guess my point is that no agency that I am aware of is under any statutory obligation to provide retired (or separated) credentials to any member of the agency. Agencies may have policies about the issuance of such credentials, but I'm not really sure what recourse somebody would have if their agency refused.

lawman800
12-01-2011, 12:23
I guess my point is that no agency that I am aware of is under any statutory obligation to provide retired (or separated) credentials to any member of the agency. Agencies may have policies about the issuance of such credentials, but I'm not really sure what recourse somebody would have if their agency refused.

That's exactly my point. Agencies may or may not be able to regulate their employees, but it seems leosa leaves retirees and separatees entirely at the mercy of the department. With thee majority of the departments being small in size, there can be write a few purple in those situations who are SOL.

Patchman
12-01-2011, 12:31
If you separate after ten years, but do not retire, what creds would you get from an agency? I don't know any that exists of that type.

With us, it's either "retired" (can be either regular retirement or disability retirement) or nothing.

Patchman
12-01-2011, 12:44
That's the other thing that I've been thinking about is, does any agency's retired ID have expiration dates on them? You know, good for 5 or 7 years or whatever. Then come back to get a new retired ID, etc...

I can see Agency rationalize this by saying a retired ID that lasts forever under LEOSA is like a lifetime permit. If the holder is arrested for felony, no one would know. But if at renewal time, the agency runs a check, etc...

mrsurfboard
12-01-2011, 13:25
That's exactly my point. Agencies may or may not be able to regulate their employees, but it seems leosa leaves retirees and separatees entirely at the mercy of the department. With thee majority of the departments being small in size, there can be write a few purple in those situations who are SOL.

In NJ, the state police issue you your retired carry ID. It must be renewed each year. Like I said in an earlier post, they are backed up a few months with new permits for the recently retired.

lawman800
12-01-2011, 13:41
At least NJ has a centralized system. There is no system for a centralized retiree ID system with our CHP.

As for separatees, I can't think of one agency that has a provision for issuing separation ID so that provision off leosa might not have any practical effect and still left up to the local agency to implement... Or not.

fla2760
12-01-2011, 16:40
I still have my last issued NYPD ID card that is perforated with RETIRED I retired in 1988 and the card expired in 1991 but it is still good because it says RETIRED. I was in NYC in August and wanted to get to 1 PP for a new one but was too busy with visiting family and friends.

rich52us
12-01-2011, 17:28
I still have my last issued NYPD ID card that is perforated with RETIRED I retired in 1988 and the card expired in 1991 but it is still good because it says RETIRED. I was in NYC in August and wanted to get to 1 PP for a new one but was too busy with visiting family and friends.


I retired 12/31/89 and at that time they perforated the ID I was carrying. I have been to 1 PP twice to update and my present card, obtained about 2 years ago, has "RETIRED" at the bottom of the photo and has no expiration date. It has been honored for all purposes.

mikegun
12-01-2011, 19:51
I for one never worry about the local uniforms. It's always the higher-ups and prosecutors you have to worry about... It could be something as innocent as thwarting a robbery in progress while off-duty in a foreign jurisdiction. By the time the attorneys get through, they will have given the crook immunity in exchange for his testimony against you and then they will end up charging you for brandishing and CCW... :rofl:

AS a young cop in the late 70s, I was stupid and hard partying, and got jammed up in New York and los Angeles, bar fights, the cops were called and i will say in both cases my partner and I were treated like royalty by the police they went out of their way to clean things up for us, both times, we, of course did the same for out of state cops, ALWAYS, i would like to think things are still the same but they are not, as we know. kind of sad IMHO.:wavey:

cowboywannabe
12-01-2011, 19:54
it seems the changes in the law are for the most part useless because it appears that no agency gives out an id card saying 10 years of service and honorable separation.

SAR
12-02-2011, 20:28
it seems the changes in the law are for the most part useless because it appears that no agency gives out an id card saying 10 years of service and honorable separation.

Well not exactly. Our retired IDs say either, "Endorsed for firearm," or "Not endorsed for firearm."

cowboywannabe
12-02-2011, 21:19
Well not exactly. Our retired IDs say either, "Endorsed for firearm," or "Not endorsed for firearm."

how does that relate to the 10 years of service but not retired that i pointed out?

SAR
12-02-2011, 21:32
how does that relate to the 10 years of service but not retired that i pointed out?

Because if you separate prior to 10 years of service, your card will not get endorsed for a firearm.

fla2760
12-02-2011, 21:50
It is my understanding that the 10 year requirement does not apply if the officer retired on disability due to a line of duty injury as long as the probationary period is completed. Speaking just of nypd I know if an officer retires for psychological reasons that the id is stamped no firearms. At least that is how they used to do it.

Mark9Fogger
12-02-2011, 22:22
That's the other thing that I've been thinking about is, does any agency's retired ID have expiration dates on them? You know, good for 5 or 7 years or whatever. Then come back to get a new retired ID, etc...

I can see Agency rationalize this by saying a retired ID that lasts forever under LEOSA is like a lifetime permit. If the holder is arrested for felony, no one would know. But if at renewal time, the agency runs a check, etc...
CA Dept of Corrections issues their CCW-stamped retired IDs with a five-year expiration date. The retiree renews it one time only at any CA state prison. Then it's good for the rest of the retiree's life.

ChiefWPD
12-04-2011, 09:41
MA :upeyes:



Well in MA, Mass Chiefs assn was dead-set against LEOSA and so they have implemented their warped policies as law (Code of Mass Regs) that directly violate the Fed Law and haven't updated since the changes last year (and last I was told by the Exec Office of Public Safety atty, they had no intent of making any changes in the near future). Add to that some unsigned, undated memos from EOPS to every police chief and DA in MA that advised that active officers (MA officers here) can not legally possess any large-cap mags (other than pre-ban, mfd on/before 9/13/1994) and must leave their issued large-cap mags at the PD at the end of every shift! :shocked:

With that attitude towards their own, you can be sure that the higher ups are just cruising for bruising to prosecute any LEO they can for this chicken**** . . . and it is a 10 year felony in MA.

As for street officers, almost all will give a pass to any visiting officer as long as the visitor doesn't act foolishly. But every department has that one who is looking for a "rep" and would indeed arrest his mother for jaywalking.

Lens:

The CMR (Code of MA Regs) is to be modified in regard the LEOSA sometime this December. I was told this by a member of the committee dealing with the matter.

:wavey:

ChiefWPD
12-04-2011, 09:43
I retired 12/31/89 and at that time they perforated the ID I was carrying. I have been to 1 PP twice to update and my present card, obtained about 2 years ago, has "RETIRED" at the bottom of the photo and has no expiration date. It has been honored for all purposes.

Rich, I have been told that when you go to 1PP for an updated ID card the new card has an expiration date. So, since the card I was given in 1990 remains valid for LEOSA purposes, I'll hang on to it!

:wavey:

rich52us
12-04-2011, 11:35
Rich, I have been told that when you go to 1PP for an updated ID card the new card has an expiration date. So, since the card I was given in 1990 remains valid for LEOSA purposes, I'll hang on to it!

:wavey:

Hey Rich. How are things with you? Anyway, my current one has not exp. date:wavey:

lawman800
12-04-2011, 11:55
Because if you separate prior to 10 years of service, your card will not get endorsed for a firearm.

But even if you separate after 10 years, as long as it is not a retirement or service related medical, there is no provision for someone who just quits after 10 good years.

lens
12-07-2011, 08:42
seems to me that violating a right "given" by federal law would settle up nicely for the off duty cop.

. . . after how many years and how many $xxK spent? I can tell you that MA State Courts will not see it our way. You'd need to work your way up to Federal Court to get a "fair hearing"!


Does MA have the exemption for repair kits like CA where we can buy new parts to refurbish old preban magazines? You can replace old parts with new parts and have eventually have a whole magazine with new parts. You just can't have more whole magazines than you started with.

No exemptions or explanations exist. Also there is no "tech branch" to get rulings from and those charged with responding to legal questions don't know which end of a gun a bullet comes out of, so even if they try to be useful, they frequently give out mis-information.


Are you referring to rifle mags or handgun magazines with a capacity of more than 10 rounds?

Both (or shotgun mags if >5 rds).


Here is another question, if leosa defines who is qualified, including separated leos who have ten years, can a department deny you the recognition necessary to get your carry rights under leosa?

Yes, I know of a couple such departments who don't give out retired creds. Two cases in particular (one small town other large city) where officers retired after many years OTJ disability issues. Neither were issued retired creds.


If your former department refuses to give you an ID card, you're screwed.

Yup.


I guess my point is that no agency that I am aware of is under any statutory obligation to provide retired (or separated) credentials to any member of the agency. Agencies may have policies about the issuance of such credentials, but I'm not really sure what recourse somebody would have if their agency refused.

None other than a Federal lawsuit. Tons of $$$ and ~10 years later you might get a positive ruling that forces agencies to comply with the law. :upeyes:


Lens:

The CMR (Code of MA Regs) is to be modified in regard the LEOSA sometime this December. I was told this by a member of the committee dealing with the matter.

:wavey:

Hi Rich,

Hmm, I just spoke with him the other day about other matters. Guess I have to drop a line to the new Asst Chief Counsel for EOPS to get in the loop again. I'm sure that they will set it up to screw the maximum number of officers . . . again!