Lol. For The Birdshot Mafia: [Archive] - Glock Talk

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ScrappyDoo
11-29-2011, 16:22
http://trentonian.com/articles/2011/11/27/news/doc4ed2d59b473f5735416487.txt

Tis was the cover of the Trentonian newspaper yesterday. A terribly sad story in actuality but in our firearms discussion and practical application theory , hysterical.

The goods : 3 teenage boys survived close range blasts with 12ga birdshot. Not even unconsciousness or knocked down , they Literally demanded to be driven to the hospital rather than hang out for an Ambo. They were NOT EVEN SLOWED DOWN ENOUGH TO BE INCAPACITATED , having talked to some people in teh know ( ive never made it a secret to being a son of a somebody. ) they probably would and could have fought back if necessary but the bad guy bounced

Th article quotes one cop as saying that he could count at least fourty pock marks on one guy and how the Injuries were grousome looking but the kids will probably be fine. Thy have confrmation the gunman walked up to the group and definitely fired four 12 ga. Blasts.

I post this because its important to me as help for people : I have often tried to show science and how it applies to firearms especially birdshot vs buckshot etc also and how having been raised by a 34 year hi ranking fairly famous police veteran, stuff I've learned from growing up blue blood and breakfast dinner table discussion like what the police use on duty and in defense of THHEIR loved ones , - point being - there has been many posts that experts defend birdshot in home defense situations and ive tried among others have tried to explain and dissuade this from use and popularity

This article definitely shows that innocent and regular Teenage boys arr not even dropped down by birdshot blasts ( plural- BLASTS- and do any of you think ON THE RARE GODFORBIDDEN EVENt you need to pull the trigger of a weapon in defense of the lives of your family you and your house- you will be able to fire FOUR BLASTS from your shotgun?!) not even knocked down. NOW imagine it is a hardened criminal , grown man possibly on drugs possibly IN WITHDRAWAL from drugs - hardened grown men of various mental states and with various states of sobriety and or chemical intoxication/impairment/enhancement. That right there is coming to kill your wife and or children before it kills you , so the last thing you see before your property is taken because you have just been killed- now ask yourself:

Is birdshot really what you want defending your family?

Tippyman
11-29-2011, 16:43
Is birdshot really what you want defending your family?

Hell no.

Next to central nervous system failure, dropping an attackers blood pressure to zero is the most effective way to stop him.

K.Kiser
11-29-2011, 16:51
I don't want to use a true light bird shot, but I'm guessing they prolly got shot at an extended range... "Some were hit 40 times", that's some bad shooting or far enough away for a really wide spread...

Tippyman
11-29-2011, 17:19
I don't want to use a true light bird shot,

Why would you want to use ANY bird shot. It's literally made for birds.

WiskyT
11-29-2011, 17:28
There are almost 400 pellets in a typical 7.5 shot field load. For only 10% of those pellets to hit, the shooter was at farther than home defense distances.

WoodenPlank
11-29-2011, 17:46
There are almost 400 pellets in a typical 7.5 shot field load. For only 10% of those pellets to hit, the shooter was at farther than home defense distances.

And it's still not going to penetrate deep enough, even at home defense distances.

Hokie
11-29-2011, 17:49
Is birdshot really what you want defending your family?

Is my family in a Hitchcock move?

WiskyT
11-29-2011, 17:50
And it's still not going to penetrate deep enough, even at home defense distances.

Hey, I use buck shot in my guns. I'm just saying that the example in the article only proves that bird shot is a poor stopper is you are a Trenton gangster firing away at long range with a shotgun.

WiskyT
11-29-2011, 17:50
Is my family in a Hitchcock move?

:supergrin:

Tippyman
11-29-2011, 17:53
Is my family in a Hitchcock move?

http://images.allmoviephoto.com/2005_Alfred_Hitchcock:_The_Masterpiece_Collection/2005_alfred_hitchcock_collection_009.jpg

Until then... I'll stick with buckshot, lol.:supergrin:

PrecisionRifleman
11-29-2011, 17:55
Any experienced hunter knows that the fastest way to stop an animal be it four legged or 2 in it's tracks is a bullet to the head or to the spine. Heart and lung shots work, but you get the "running/walking" dead thing going on. So boys and girls PENETRATION is important. Put some damn buckshot in your gauge and call it a day. FML...

WoodenPlank
11-29-2011, 18:02
Is my family in a Hitchcock move?

:rofl:

ScrappyDoo
11-29-2011, 18:05
It was fairly close range it wasnt long distance. I got that info but other than thatyeah I wasn't there I can't give specifics.


Still cannot comprehend why anyone even remotely fathoms birdshot over buck but some people still subscribe to the " acts as a mass before it opens up " etc. What can you do, people only know what they only know.

WoodenPlank
11-29-2011, 18:23
It was fairly close range it wasnt long distance. I got that info but other than thatyeah I wasn't there I can't give specifics.


Still cannot comprehend why anyone even remotely fathoms birdshot over buck but some people still subscribe to the " acts as a mass before it opens up " etc. What can you do, people only know what they only know.

When it comes to the criminal elements, I think it's more a matter of it being cheap and easy to acquire, not because they thing there is an advantage.

ScrappyDoo
11-29-2011, 18:48
When it comes to the criminal elements, I think it's more a matter of it being cheap and easy to acquire, not because they thing there is an advantage.


Oh yes sir I certainly agree. I did not mean to suggest the criminal chose birdshot or Even knows the difference. Simply posted to try to help any readers out there make the right decision. Thats all.

WiskyT
11-29-2011, 18:57
It was fairly close range it wasnt long distance. I got that info but other than thatyeah I wasn't there I can't give specifics.


Still cannot comprehend why anyone even remotely fathoms birdshot over buck but some people still subscribe to the " acts as a mass before it opens up " etc. What can you do, people only know what they only know.

Even with a cylinder bore, it would have to be tens of yards away for 10% of the pattern to be on a target that big. Instead of saying things like "fairly close range" why don't you just look in the report and tell use where the empty shells were found in relation to the people struck?

post-apocalyptic
11-29-2011, 19:34
While never ideal, birdshot shells can be adapted to effective hunting/HD use with any pocket knife:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k3M46XVfVOU

triggerjerk
11-30-2011, 09:35
Birdshot to the face courtesy of fmr vp Cheney.
http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lfavt2lc3V1qd9vzc.jpg

cj5mrt
11-30-2011, 14:12
There are almost 400 pellets in a typical 7.5 shot field load. For only 10% of those pellets to hit, the shooter was at farther than home defense distances.

Maybe the other 90% didn't penetrate their clothing and only hit exposed skin.

WiskyT
11-30-2011, 16:07
Maybe the other 90% didn't penetrate their clothing and only hit exposed skin.

Maybe, but check out the video at 4:00. At thirty feet, the birdshot penetrates two layers of sheetrock and a water jug. And going by the shots in the begining of the video, at 30 feet, the vast majority of the shot pattern will print on a man-sized target. So the idea of 90% of the pattern bouncing off clothing just doesn't wash.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BXz_Aftj8rE

jwhite75
11-30-2011, 16:28
There is a saying "Any one worth shooting is worth shooting twice."

If I need to use my Shotgun in my home I am not gonna shoot to hurt or piss off...I am gonna shoot to STOP the threat.

I load 00 Buck or slugs.

VZ1600
12-01-2011, 13:13
How does The Box O Truth say it? "Birdshot is for little birdies, buckshot is for bad guys."

That said, I keep Hornady TAP OO buck (8 pellet, 1600fps) in my Mossberg 930SPX.


OutdoorHub Mobile, the information engine of the outdoors.

MarkCO
12-01-2011, 13:39
ScrappyDoo, while buckshot is generally a better performer over the range of expected encounters, using junk science to argue your opinion does not help make your case. In fact I'll assume you have solidified some peoples preference for birdshot who also fear overpentration will kill their kid or neighbor. I had a case where a person was struck by a .45 ACP JHP at about 900 feet and it just penetrated the skin. Using that to say the .45 ACP is a poor pistol caliber for SD is not going to fly either.

MarkCO
12-01-2011, 13:45
There are almost 400 pellets in a typical 7.5 shot field load. For only 10% of those pellets to hit, the shooter was at farther than home defense distances.

For IC with a standard birdshot loads, the calculated distance (assuming a centered pattern) would be 64 yards. You are certainly correct.

FLglockdude
12-01-2011, 13:55
Birdshot is for birds, buckshot is for bad guys. I prefer not to use a load where a thick leather jacket could act as body armor.

Sent from my Motorola Atrix

S9Man
12-01-2011, 16:06
Marlin Goose gun 36" full choke barrel, WW super X 3" Mag 1 7/8 oz #2 shot.

WoodenPlank
12-01-2011, 16:42
ScrappyDoo, while buckshot is generally a better performer over the range of expected encounters, using junk science to argue your opinion does not help make your case. In fact I'll assume you have solidified some peoples preference for birdshot who also fear overpentration will kill their kid or neighbor. I had a case where a person was struck by a .45 ACP JHP at about 900 feet and it just penetrated the skin. Using that to say the .45 ACP is a poor pistol caliber for SD is not going to fly either.

Doesn't change the fact that birdshot is an exceptionally poor penetrator in flesh, and will not reliably penetrate enough to hit vital structures - even at close range.

MarkCO
12-01-2011, 17:45
Doesn't change the fact that birdshot is an exceptionally poor penetrator in flesh, and will not reliably penetrate enough to hit vital structures - even at close range.

Exactly! Point was, the original post and the underlying icident was a VERY poor argument, at best. There are tests, ballisitics models and a large body of evidence that make a much more compelling case. Using a single incident with unknown parameters and obviuosly a poor percentage of HOT is anecdotal at best.

LASTRESORT20
12-01-2011, 18:18
Birdshot to the face courtesy of fmr vp Cheney.
http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lfavt2lc3V1qd9vzc.jpg

A Liberal would of missed....:yawn:

WoodenPlank
12-01-2011, 18:43
Exactly! Point was, the original post and the underlying icident was a VERY poor argument, at best. There are tests, ballisitics models and a large body of evidence that make a much more compelling case. Using a single incident with unknown parameters and obviuosly a poor percentage of HOT is anecdotal at best.

When anecdotal evidence supports the rest of the scientific and solid evidence, though, it's still valid.

MarkCO
12-01-2011, 19:00
When anecdotal evidence supports the rest of the scientific and solid evidence, though, it's still valid.

No it is NOT. The parameters are undocumented in the referenced incident so it has no relevance to evidence of any kind. It is merely in the realm of "fairy tale" unless the parameters can be substantiated. :upeyes:

WoodenPlank
12-01-2011, 19:07
No it is NOT. The parameters are undocumented in the referenced incident so it has no relevance to evidence of any kind. It is merely in the realm of "fairy tale" unless the parameters can be substantiated. :upeyes:

Then chalk it up to "Are you surprised?" instead. Fair?

MarkCO
12-01-2011, 19:09
Then chalk it up to "Are you surprised?" instead. Fair?

Sure...:cheers: