LE Agencies Carrying the .357 Sig? [Archive] - Glock Talk

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4949shooter
12-02-2011, 13:08
Guys,

I will be writing a recommendation for a new duty round for my agency. I have decided on recommending the .357 Sig for certain reasons.

Do we know which LE agencies carry the .357 Sig? I know the U.S. Secret Service carries it. Does the New Mexico State Police still carry it?

Any other agencies?

Thanks,
49

fastbolt
12-02-2011, 13:21
Last I heard NMSP and Alameda County (CA) were still issuing it.

MeefZah
12-02-2011, 13:39
Union Co. OH S.O. carries the Glock whatever in .357 Sig.

blueiron
12-02-2011, 13:41
Last I recall, the following agencies were using it:

Federal Air Marshals
Virginia State Police
Montana Highway Patrol
Mississippi Highway Patrol
Delaware State Police
Richmond, VA. PD
North Carolina Highway Patrol
Tennessee Highway Patrol

I can't remember the name of the city, but some city agency in Joisey :supergrin: carries it too.

GD2J
12-02-2011, 13:41
Va State Police.

trdvet
12-02-2011, 13:42
TX DPS (State Troopers)

DaBigBR
12-02-2011, 13:47
New Mexico carries it in the M&P, unless that changed. S&W advertised with them for a while.

Ajon412
12-02-2011, 13:57
Guys,

I will be writing a recommendation for a new duty round for my agency. I have decided on recommending the .357 Sig for certain reasons.

Do we know which LE agencies carry the .357 Sig? I know the U.S. Secret Service carries it. Does the New Mexico State Police still carry it?

Any other agencies?

Thanks,
49

A quick search revealed the following:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.357_SIG

The PD's are listed at the bottom. I didn't realize that Paramus (NJ) PD was carrying the .357 Sig. What delivery system are you guys looking at?

4949shooter
12-02-2011, 14:19
Last I recall, the following agencies were using it:

I can't remember the name of the city, but some city agency in Joisey :supergrin: carries it too.

Joisey too? :supergrin:

A quick search revealed the following:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.357_SIG

The PD's are listed at the bottom. I didn't realize that Paramus (NJ) PD was carrying the .357 Sig. What delivery system are you guys looking at?

It's still up in the air. If I hear anything I will let you. By the time we see a change, I might be retired anyway.

Thanks guys for the info. guys..

OLY-M4gery
12-02-2011, 14:27
Verona WI PD was carrying it last I knew.

Someone confused .40 and 9mm and fired some 9mm through a .40 pistol.

So they went to a "distinctive" round.

Reyn
12-02-2011, 14:29
My dept use to carry them but the cost of ammo was higher and at one point we couldn't find it in stock. We went to G22.

Kahr_Glockman
12-02-2011, 15:08
4949,

Texas DPS spent a large amount of money and time in the research before they adopted the round. I have heard, that they will provide there research data to other agencies upon request. They have been using the rounds since about 1996, if I am not mistaken. They were among the first agencies to adopt it and have had very good success with the round.

They are using the 125 Gr Speer Gold Dot in Sig P226R DAK. Again for the most part I have heard excellent things from them.

If you are looking for good data, you might call the DPS firearms division and see if they can help you with data.

trdvet
12-02-2011, 15:13
If you are looking for good data, you might call the DPS firearms division and see if they can help you with data.

Indeed

Frank Woodall, Deputy Assistant Director, Education, Training and Research

Jason Hester, Captain, Law Enforcement Education Academy & Recruiting

Ronnie Tacquard, Captain, Tactical Training Center

Lisa Strawn, Program Coordinator, Employee Development

Law Enforcement Education Academy
DPS.Training@dps.texas.gov
Office: (512) 424-7214
Fax: (512) 424-5734

Tactical Training Center in Florence
Firearms Range: (254) 793-4250
Emergency Vehicle Operations Center: (254) 793-2267

isp2605
12-02-2011, 20:43
Springfield IL PD was one of the first agencies to adopt the 357 SIG round. They've had pretty good success with it.

4949shooter
12-03-2011, 01:32
Thanks guys this is good information. I will be submitting an initial recommendation next week.

boomhower
12-03-2011, 10:28
NC Highway Patrol. From the guys I talked to they love the round and hate the gun. They were carrying sigs and now have M&P's, ironically enough chambered in sigs round.

lndshark
12-03-2011, 11:09
In Michigan:

Southfield PD
Birmingham PD

packsaddle
12-03-2011, 12:45
our department issues the glock .357 sig.

some carry it, while others carry their own make/model/caliber (including me).

i've owned the glock 32 and 33 in the past and i really liked that caliber.

series1811
12-03-2011, 12:48
Mississippi Bureau of Narcotics issues two .357 Sigs to every agent.
1. 229
2. 239 for backup and undercover

nndavec
12-03-2011, 14:27
Oklahoma Highway Patrol issues Sigs in 357 Sig. Seems to be several troopers that have opted to carry various other pistols. We see a lot of Glocks, usually in 9mm, 40 and a few 357 Sigs.

There is plenty of information available now about the difference in the service caliber autos. If for whatever reason you want to change from 9mm, I doubt you will see a great deal if any difference in the 357s performance vs the 9mm.

Z71-K9
12-03-2011, 22:11
PA Game Commission. All Wildlife Conservation Officers and Deputy Wildlife Conservation Officers carry the Glock 31.

Vigilant
12-03-2011, 22:32
I know very little about the round. What little I have heard is that it may perform somewhat better when shooting through glass, and particularly windshields. Perhaps a selling point for those working the road?

JohnnyReb
12-03-2011, 22:39
Good round, but limited choices in platform. Glock, Sig or M&P.

MarcDW
12-03-2011, 23:29
Good round, but limited choices in platform. Glock, Sig or M&P.

Not true: HK, SA XD, Steyr and there are companies making barrels for Walther or even CZ.
I carry a HK P30 in .357 SIG.

In Maine the Maine Game Warden carries the P226 in .357 SIG.
Also some small town PD's have it.

blueiron
12-03-2011, 23:44
I know very little about the round. What little I have heard is that it may perform somewhat better when shooting through glass, and particularly windshields. Perhaps a selling point for those working the road?


Due to its higher velocity, it has an enhanced penetration capability when encountering obstructions such as auto bodies, glass, drywall, etc. It still expands well in the average adult torso afterwards when proper LE expanding ammo is used.

JohnnyReb
12-04-2011, 01:52
Not true: HK, SA XD, Steyr and there are companies making barrels for Walther or even CZ.
I carry a HK P30 in .357 SIG.

In Maine the Maine Game Warden carries the P226 in .357 SIG.
Also some small town PD's have it.

I wouldn't consider xd or styer to even be in the running for a duty pistol. And yes, I forgot about HK.



Outdoor Hub mobile, the outdoor information engine

MarcDW
12-04-2011, 04:46
Steyr M is a duty pistol on the same level of a Glock.
I even had a Nighthawk 1911 in .357 SIG.

50 Cent
12-04-2011, 07:48
Is there a particular trait for the .357 SIG vs the 9mm/.40 that would have LE select it as a duty round? Sorta like the Treasury agents in the '30's selected the .38 Super for barrier
(ie car body) penetration? Just wondering how the rationale outweighs the additional cost.

I'm not knocking the SIG round, just seems sort of a niche type round.

MarcDW
12-04-2011, 08:08
Well, there are PLENTY of threats about this.
IMHO only the best is what I want in my hand in the darkest moment of my life!

4949shooter
12-04-2011, 08:52
Is there a particular trait for the .357 SIG vs the 9mm/.40 that would have LE select it as a duty round? Sorta like the Treasury agents in the '30's selected the .38 Super for barrier
(ie car body) penetration? Just wondering how the rationale outweighs the additional cost.

I'm not knocking the SIG round, just seems sort of a niche type round.

Superior ballistics, with a 125 grain bullet at 1350 feet per second:

http://www.speer-ammo.com/ballistics/detail.aspx?loadNo=23918

This comes close to the venerable .357 magnum revolver round, which clocked a 125 grain bullet at 1400 fps. This round delivered a one shot stop percentage in the mid 90 percentile range, according to statistics, and certain studies.

The .357 Sig round, as mentioned previously, has been shown to exhibit superior barrier penetration qualities. My agency conducts a lot of highway motor vehicle stops, and IMHO this is an important quality for us to have in a defensive round.

Cav
12-04-2011, 09:11
Texas DPS has some great tests, lab and real world.

They had 9MM's and .45's for a while. IIRC the real test was when a new trooper was testing the .357 Sig and they had a traffic stop on a semi that fled. The veteran trooper shot his .45 and it did little to the semi, the .357 went thru the doors and brought the incident to s stop.

I have done pistol shoots with them in Florence TX and they brought to light a few things. They made a large deal with Sig and the ammo supply and get a good price. They spend less for their .357 Sig ammo per box than my PD does for .40 S&W (but they got on early and are a large agency) . We did pistol shooting at 25 to 50 yards. The .357 Sig is a flat shooting round. I got to shoot their guns and they shoot at about point of aim at longer ranges. Granted I was using a Glock 23 in .40 cal, but with their guns it was point and shoot vs adjust for longer range. Its like a .38 vs .357 mag. The .357 Sig has the power of a .40 in the size of a 9MM bullet. It has penitration and expantion (vehicles/light body armor/doors). It shoots flatter so range is not as much of an issue and rounds will not go all over (think civil issues).

I know early on when the .357 Sig came out there were rumors about how well they will feed in a semi-auto as the steps/curves to the case/chamber. I have heard nothing about it since.

I think the .357 Sig is a good round to look into and I think the TX DPS will have more real world data than most places.

4949shooter
12-04-2011, 09:18
I think the .357 Sig is a good round to look into and I think the TX DPS will have more real world data than most places.

Thank you Cav. I will check with Texas DPS tomorrow.

DaBigBR
12-04-2011, 12:05
Superior ballistics, with a 125 grain bullet at 1350 feet per second:

http://www.speer-ammo.com/ballistics/detail.aspx?loadNo=23918

This comes close to the venerable .357 magnum revolver round, which clocked a 125 grain bullet at 1400 fps. This round delivered a one shot stop percentage in the mid 90 percentile range, according to statistics, and certain studies.

The .357 Sig round, as mentioned previously, has been shown to exhibit superior barrier penetration qualities. My agency conducts a lot of highway motor vehicle stops, and IMHO this is an important quality for us to have in a defensive round.

If you're referring to the Sanow and Marshall studies that stuff has all been seriously called in to question and even largely disproven.

4949shooter
12-04-2011, 13:25
If you're referring to the Sanow and Marshall studies that stuff has all been seriously called in to question and even largely disproven.

It's not a perfect study by any means, however it does give us a general idea.

You would argue the effectiveness of the 125 grain .357 magnum round at 1400 feet per second?

Newcop761
12-04-2011, 13:34
What brand / model are you recommending for the .357 Sig?

4949shooter
12-04-2011, 13:41
What brand / model are you recommending for the .357 Sig?

That's still up in the air for now.

blueiron
12-04-2011, 14:39
Contact the USSS for information on their selection of the .357 SiG round. They have a good amount of information on the effectiveness on it and when I looked at it, it convinced me to convert my Glock 22 and my P2000sk both to the SiG cartridge.

When I tried to get my former agency to convert from the .40, I discovered that no one in Arizona at the time used it and the cartridge wasn't available on the State contract bid, so we didn't go with it.

MarcDW
12-04-2011, 15:24
I carry the Hornedy TAP.
So far I (thank god) shot only porcupines and they all were a one shot kill with the porcupine being dead in it's track.
Years before I tried that with 9mm and it took sometimes 6 rounds to kill them!

nndavec
12-04-2011, 15:28
There is just as much if not more data that shows that the 357 Sig is no better than any of the other top police used calibers. There is a great deal of info available on M4 carbine and lightfighter about them. If you have not had a chance to read the info posted by DocGKR, that would be an excellent place to start the research.

I have attended several of the ballistic shoots hosted by the ammo manufacturers. Not of them displayed any sign of the 357 Sig rounds being better than the 9mm,40 or 45 in penetration or ballistic capabilities.

In mentioning the 125 gr. 357 magnum at 1400fps. That is what got me started in carrying the Glocks in 357 Sig for almost 5 years. The earliest Gold Dots were an honest 1400fps. But since then we have checked 31 different lot numbers of Gold Dot ammo and have found they have reduced the velocity to 1320-1375. I was told by the LE Rep at one of the shoots that there target velocity is + or -50 fps of the advertised velocity. In all of my testing that information is correct.

I am not saying the 357 Sig is a bad round, but it isn't the death ray some have stated. In today's economic times, not many agencies are opting to pay at times twice as much for ammo that only offers an additional 100-160 fps more than the quality 9mm ammo. Also, if you look at the 357 vs the 40 155 gr loads, those are somewhat comparable.



It's not a perfect study by any means, however it does give us a general idea.

You would argue the effectiveness of the 125 grain .357 magnum round at 1400 feet per second?

jhooten
12-04-2011, 17:08
Bastrop County Texas is in the process of converting from 357 sig to 40S&W. The stated reason was the high cost of ammo. (there is more to the story but that is the official reason given)

DaBigBR
12-04-2011, 17:12
It's not a perfect study by any means, however it does give us a general idea.

You would argue the effectiveness of the 125 grain .357 magnum round at 1400 feet per second?

Absolutely not. I do, however, argue against any "one shot stop" evidence being at all empirical.

stinx
12-04-2011, 18:35
Tyngsboro Ma carries P-226 in 357 Sig. Amesbury Ma is in the process of transitioning from Sig P-229 in 357 Sig to Glock 17's.

jwhite75
12-04-2011, 18:41
Our local SD (Fayette County, WV) issue the G31

The neighboring Clay Co SD issues a Sig Sauer P226ST (all stainless frame and slide).

Glockbuster
12-04-2011, 18:42
Contact the USSS for information on their selection of the .357 SiG round. They have a good amount of information on the effectiveness on it and when I looked at it, it convinced me to convert my Glock 22 and my P2000sk both to the SiG cartridge.

When I tried to get my former agency to convert from the .40, I discovered that no one in Arizona at the time used it and the cartridge wasn't available on the State contract bid, so we didn't go with it.

Would you care to elaborate a little more on the USSS info on the effectiveness ?

4949shooter
12-04-2011, 19:01
Absolutely not. I do, however, argue against any "one shot stop" evidence being at all empirical.

Agreed.

4949shooter
12-04-2011, 19:13
There is just as much if not more data that shows that the 357 Sig is no better than any of the other top police used calibers. There is a great deal of info available on M4 carbine and lightfighter about them. If you have not had a chance to read the info posted by DocGKR, that would be an excellent place to start the research.

I have attended several of the ballistic shoots hosted by the ammo manufacturers. Not of them displayed any sign of the 357 Sig rounds being better than the 9mm,40 or 45 in penetration or ballistic capabilities.

In mentioning the 125 gr. 357 magnum at 1400fps. That is what got me started in carrying the Glocks in 357 Sig for almost 5 years. The earliest Gold Dots were an honest 1400fps. But since then we have checked 31 different lot numbers of Gold Dot ammo and have found they have reduced the velocity to 1320-1375. I was told by the LE Rep at one of the shoots that there target velocity is + or -50 fps of the advertised velocity. In all of my testing that information is correct.

I am not saying the 357 Sig is a bad round, but it isn't the death ray some have stated. In today's economic times, not many agencies are opting to pay at times twice as much for ammo that only offers an additional 100-160 fps more than the quality 9mm ammo. Also, if you look at the 357 vs the 40 155 gr loads, those are somewhat comparable.

Understood. I don't think the .357 to be anything other than a viable self defence/law enforcement cartridge. With my agency's mentality, it will be easier to convince the powers above to switch to an upgraded 9MM rather than a .40 or .45. There are other reasons I am going to push for the Sig round, but agency cultural rigidity is one of them. Years ago, I suggested the +p version of the 9 mm 124 grain Gold Dot round we carry. I was told by the Major in charge no, because it would beat up the guns unneccesarily.

Right now, the 124 grain Gold Dot we carry has a listed velocity of 1150 feet per second with 354 foot pounds of energy. The 125 gain Gold Dot in .357 Sig has a listed velocity of 1350 feet per second with 506 foot pounds of energy. This is an improvement.

BTW, I don't expect this pistol round to perform the same as the 125 grain .357 magnum. Though, to my way of thinking, if we can approximate, or come close to this performance in a pistol round, we are on the right track.

I am unfamiliar with the sites you have listed above. Any links to them would be helpful. Thanks for your post.

nndavec
12-04-2011, 19:48
Here is the links,
http://lightfighter.net

http://www.m4carbine.net

http://www.10-8forums.com/ubbthreads/

DMF
12-04-2011, 21:59
It's not a perfect study by any means, however it does give us a general idea.Certainly not perfect, in fact it's crap.

http://www.firearmstactical.com/marshall-sanow-statistical-analysis.htm

http://www.firearmstactical.com/marshall-sanow-discrepancies.htm

Oh, and one more agency using .357SIG is the Social Security Administration, Office of the Inspector General, Office of Investigations. They carry the Sig 229 in .357SIG.

JohnnyReb
12-04-2011, 22:36
Steyr M is a duty pistol on the same level of a Glock.


While I completely agree with you on that, I don't know of any agencies carrying the steyr.

JohnnyReb
12-04-2011, 22:38
Right now, the 124 grain Gold Dot we carry has a listed velocity of 1150 feet per second with 354 foot pounds of energy. The 125 gain Gold Dot in .357 Sig has a listed velocity of 1350 feet per second with 506 foot pounds of energy. This is an improvement.


Has your agency not been satisfied with your current load? How does it perform in shootings?

4949shooter
12-05-2011, 08:15
Certainly not perfect, in fact it's crap.

http://www.firearmstactical.com/marshall-sanow-statistical-analysis.htm

http://www.firearmstactical.com/marshall-sanow-discrepancies.htm

Oh, and one more agency using .357SIG is the Social Security Administration, Office of the Inspector General, Office of Investigations. They carry the Sig 229 in .357SIG.

I recall having this discussion with you here around 5 or 6 years ago. I realize the study is flawed. Taking into account the flaws and the other theories out there is what I base my OWN opinion on. My opinion is not Marshall's, Sanow's, Fackler's, Taylor's, or whoever. I can only look at what each study brings us and take the best of each.

My agency is looking into the possibility of changing rounds. I am in favor of a boost in velocity of 200 feet per second. That's it.

4949shooter
12-05-2011, 08:18
Here is the links,
http://lightfighter.net

http://www.m4carbine.net

http://www.10-8forums.com/ubbthreads/

Thanks I will check them out.

Has your agency not been satisfied with your current load? How does it perform in shootings?

Not that we are DIS satisified, but the rank and file would like something more powerful.

BuckyP
12-05-2011, 13:43
What brand / model are you recommending for the .357 Sig?

That's still up in the air for now.

I understand S&W would be willing to make a special run of SW99s in .357 Sig for your agency if you are interested. :whistling:


:outtahere:

4949shooter
12-05-2011, 13:46
I understand S&W would be willing to make a special run of SW99s in .357 Sig for your agency if you are interested. :whistling:


:outtahere:

Yeah I know. :puking:

dpadams6
12-05-2011, 17:57
My dept. has been carrying the 357 sig for approx. 13 years. We've had several shootings with it and it has worked very well.

GasTiresOil
12-05-2011, 18:21
Rhode Island state police carry Sig 226 DAK in 357. Try shooting a call to them.

4949shooter
12-05-2011, 19:17
Another one...thanks.

EMTCOP
12-06-2011, 01:47
TN Highway Patrol carries the Glock 31. TSA Air Marshals carry the Sig 229 .357 Sig.

JohnnyReb
12-06-2011, 02:15
Personally, I believe you have a better case for +p gold dots. You just need to show that the additional wear caused by the +p round is negligible. A call to NYPD should help.

This way everyone can keep the same guns, and equipment. A change in calibers might be expensive, and 357 sig is significantly more expensive then 9mm.

I'd keep trying to make the case for the +p round.

4949shooter
12-06-2011, 13:21
Good point. We'll see how this goes.