EMS care after taking down a bad guy [Archive] - Glock Talk

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kylet
12-02-2011, 15:46
I was just thinking this over...

For any ems providers out there... if you got jumped and had to shoot the BG, would you then preform medical care for the individual? Or would you leave him be?

Lets assume that you were able to determine that the scene was safe(removed firearms/ other weapons)

Also assuming that ems care is probably coming anyway.

Any thoughts?


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Lord
12-02-2011, 15:54
I was just thinking this over...

For any ems providers out there... if you got jumped and had to shoot the BG, would you then preform medical care for the individual? Or would you leave him be?

Lets assume that you were able to determine that the scene was safe(removed firearms/ other weapons)

Also assuming that ems care is probably coming anyway.

Any thoughts?


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I would render whatever aid I could. My intention would not be to kill the BG, just stop him. ... and yes, I am an EMT.

Panzer
12-02-2011, 16:00
No I wouldn't render aid, once you shoot the guy it becomes a crime scene. If he bleeds out, well that's just too damn bad.

BC Dan
12-02-2011, 16:03
As an EMT, once he stops being a lethal threat, I would feel morally and possibly legally obligated to render aid. Then if he bleeds out, well that's just too damn bad. (to coin a phrase ;) )

txgunguy
12-02-2011, 16:10
Paramedic here. No I wouldn't. The first rule of ANY patient care is BSI/Scene safety. (body substance isolation). Wouldn't start trying to help the person that tried to kill me especially without gloves to protect me from his blood. No way, no how.

In Texas, you do not have to act while off duty. Even if I was supposed to, I wouldn't help someone that tried to kill me or my family. I have a moral obligation against that.

SCmasterblaster
12-02-2011, 16:11
I was just thinking this over...

For any ems providers out there... if you got jumped and had to shoot the BG, would you then preform medical care for the individual? Or would you leave him be?

Lets assume that you were able to determine that the scene was safe(removed firearms/ other weapons)

Also assuming that ems care is probably coming anyway.

Any thoughts?


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Well, after a half-dozen rounds of WW 115gr JHP +p+ through his chest, he'll be beyond all medical help.

Lord270
12-02-2011, 16:16
I am an EMT as well and a certified SWAT MEDIC if I take a suspect down with my sidearm. I am legally, ethically, and morally obligated to render care to him I will secure and bag his weapon and my weapon and fired casing and preserve evidence while rendering care to him

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OIFx2
12-02-2011, 16:36
I am not an EMT, but I have been through the Army's Combat Lifesaver Course and am confident that if the wound is survivable, I could keep them alive until EMT/Paramedics get there. If that situation should arise; I would make sure the scene is safe (no additional threats, disarm them, search them) then provide whatever care I could in an effort to keep them alive until better help comes. The last thing I want to do is be responsible for someones death.

cowboywannabe
12-02-2011, 16:43
i would be too distraught to do anything other than call 911. my mental state of shock would have prevented me from thinking more clearly after the shooting.

and thats all i would say.

MedicOni
12-02-2011, 16:50
Nope. As long as I'm not identifiable as an EMT off-duty, I'm not obligated to help. No duty to act. The ****er can bleed out for all I care. Besides, I don't carry a FAK on me, so what would I do. I'm sure as hell not gonna get my hands covered in their blood without proper BSI

Lord
12-02-2011, 16:50
Paramedic here. No I wouldn't. The first rule of ANY patient care is BSI/Scene safety. (body substance isolation). Wouldn't start trying to help the person that tried to kill me especially without gloves to protect me from his blood. No way, no how.

In Texas, you do not have to act while off duty. Even if I was supposed to, I wouldn't help someone that tried to kill me or my family. I have a moral obligation against that.

you have valid points. I guess in rendering whatever aid I could, if I can't take any universal precautions, the aid I would give would simply be to call to him and say..... "hold pressure on it".

kylet
12-02-2011, 18:22
I appreciate all the responses..

I think I would if I was able to remove weapons from the scene and if I was able to have Bailey. Otherwise... I wouldnt be able to do much.



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1glockfan23
12-02-2011, 18:27
I would call in the incident to 911, and render what aid I could. If troops in war are required to render aid to enemy combatants, then I should hold myself to the same standard. This is all contingent on scene safety, and me having proper personal protective equipment (which I always have a CPR mask and gloves attached to my key lanyard).

unit1069
12-02-2011, 20:04
I'm not an EMS guy but ...

if you got jumped and had to shoot the BG ...

Call 911 immediately, determine whether or not the perp is a threat in any way, and if not render aid while studiously avoiding any of the perp's bodily fluids. Keep your eyes and ears open for the perp's possible accomplices or a mob forming that appears hostile.

DaneA
12-02-2011, 20:55
Not sure what kind of aid I would be able to give a dead guy.

Sharky7
12-02-2011, 21:37
There's a lot of variables with this and you really have to consider the totality of the circumstances when considering what you are going to do.

-Rural or Urban- How close is 911 services like police/fire/ambulance to getting to your location

-Multiple threats?

-Hostile threat/resistive? - It's nothing like the movies or the youtube commando's make it out to be. Just because you put a few bullets into someone does not immediately change their attitude from wanting to kill you to no longer wanting to kill you.

-Additional weapons - Knives, guns, pens, keys, pepper spray, etc. What does bad guy have on him that could disable/hurt/kill you. Have you controlled/subdued this person? Have you searched this person?

-Anyone else with you - can someone provide cover?

It's good to think about "the aftermath" because too many of these threads are just guys trying to play out the fantasy and "cools" part of it. First and foremost it is important to protect your safety and the safety of others around you after you are involved in a shooting. If you used deadly force appropriately, the bad guy had the intent or attempted to use deadly force on you. In most situations you would be best served by finding cover (getting behind something that will stop rounds if bad guy pulls out a gun) and holding the bad guy at gun point while you call 911 or direct a companion of yours to phone 911. Make sure to inform 911 you are holding the person at gun point. Tell them you are a CCW holder and let them know what you are wearing, your race, gender, and physical description. Repeat to them several times you are the victim and make sure they relay the information to responding officers. When the police arrive it is their scene, they are now in control. Holster up or drop your gun and show your hands - don't make any movements until instructed.

G31
12-03-2011, 11:10
I agree with Sharky7 on this one. My safety trumps theirs, and it is not my responsibility to render aid at the expense on my own safety.

ChuteTheMall
12-03-2011, 11:15
I'm not an EMT, but I would render aid as soon as it was safe for me to do so.

First I gotta go find my gloves and my first aid book...........:whistling:

LApm9
12-03-2011, 11:50
Would any of you who would intend to offer treatment be worried about getting into contact distance with someone who was trying to kill you moments before?

Would moving the attacker's weapon out of his reach come back to haunt you in the later legal processes?

Darkangel1846
12-03-2011, 12:11
Its up to you but it only takes a second or two to elevate his legs.

MedicOni
12-03-2011, 13:01
Its up to you but it only takes a second or two to elevate his legs.
Which does absolutely nothing in terms of helping your patient, and if the theory behind trend was correct, if the bleed is above the level of hte waist, you'd be helping them bleed out faster. Trend is a joke anyways

OIFx2
12-03-2011, 13:16
Would any of you who would intend to offer treatment be worried about getting into contact distance with someone who was trying to kill you moments before?

Would moving the attacker's weapon out of his reach come back to haunt you in the later legal processes?


The situation would dictate - for example if they were still hostile and I judged them to still be a threat I would be less likely to provide aid. However, if they were badly hurt or unconsious it wouldn't be an issue.

As far as the possible legal issue - I wouldn't touch their weopon with my hands, probably slide it away with my foot. But, I don't see it being an issue.

quinnt
12-03-2011, 13:33
Emt here, NH has no duty to act. It's still an unsafe scene until Police arrive and I don't carry gloves or gear on my person unless I'm on duty. And if I'm on duty I'm not armed.

packsaddle
12-03-2011, 15:09
Anything you do beyond stopping the threat is contaminating the crime scene and could possibly affect the outcome of your case.

Even kicking the perp's weapon 15 feet away may be the difference between a true bill and a no bill (assuming there were no credible witnesses to testify on your behalf).

perhaps a more seasoned investigator at GT can expand on this.

Sharky7
12-03-2011, 15:56
Anything you do beyond stopping the threat is contaminating the crime scene and could possibly affect the outcome of your case.

Even kicking the perp's weapon 15 feet away may be the difference between a true bill and a no bill (assuming there were no credible witnesses to testify on your behalf).

perhaps a more seasoned investigator at GT can expand on this.

Safety is paramount. If you are in the position to move a weapon away from a threat - you should do so. You should be more concerned with whether you should leave cover to move a weapon, not how it will affect the case. It's not always safe to remove yourself from cover, it only takes a second or two to pick up a dropped gun and shoot - but it will take longer than that in most cases for you to disable that bad guy once you start firing.

I have been a police officer coming up on 10 years and have been to dozens of calls where people are shot, but still moving around. Sometimes even walking to the ambulance when we show up.

In an active scene - safety is paramount. As a police officer, do you think I would leave a gun next to a wounded bad guy until the evidence tech could get there? An inactive scene where the offender has fled - do NOT touch anything.

It's not the first rodeo for the police who investigate it. That is like saying you must hop and skip over shell casings while you return fire to make sure the police know where they fell. It's understood that active scenes are fluid.

Lord
12-03-2011, 16:01
Safety is paramount. If you are in the position to move a weapon away from a threat - you should do so. You should be more concerned with whether you should leave cover to move a weapon, not how it will affect the case. It's not always safe to remove yourself from cover, it only takes a second or two to pick up a dropped gun and shoot - but it will take longer than that in most cases for you to disable that bad guy once you start firing.

I have been a police officer coming up on 10 years and have been to dozens of calls where people are shot, but still moving around. Sometimes even walking to the ambulance when we show up.

In an active scene - safety is paramount. As a police officer, do you think I would leave a gun next to a wounded bad guy until the evidence tech could get there? An inactive scene where the offender has fled - do NOT touch anything.

It's not the first rodeo for the police who investigate it. That is like saying you must hop and skip over shell casings while you return fire to make sure the police know where they fell. It's understood that active scenes are fluid.

As a former investigator, it's pretty crucial to leave a scene as pristine as possible. Since pretty much EVERYONE's cell phones have cameras in them, I would suggest immediately taking pictures of everything before moving anything. I understand the possible necessity of moving the BG's gun away, so I would use my phone's video and start recording everything that's going on as I secure what needs to be secured.

Sharky7
12-03-2011, 16:12
[QUOTE=Lord;18238523]As a former investigator, it's pretty crucial to leave a scene as pristine as possible. Since pretty much EVERYONE's cell phones have cameras in them, I would suggest immediately taking pictures of everything before moving anything. I understand the possible necessity of moving the BG's gun away, so I would use my phone's video and start recording everything that's going on as I secure what needs to be secured.[/]

You should never pull out your cell phone camera when there is an active threat who has a gun within reach. That is just goofy. You were never a police officer or had any deadly force shootings.

Lord
12-03-2011, 16:14
[QUOTE=Lord;18238523]As a former investigator, it's pretty crucial to leave a scene as pristine as possible. Since pretty much EVERYONE's cell phones have cameras in them, I would suggest immediately taking pictures of everything before moving anything. I understand the possible necessity of moving the BG's gun away, so I would use my phone's video and start recording everything that's going on as I secure what needs to be secured.[/]

You should never pull out your cell phone camera when there is an active threat who has a gun within reach. That is just goofy. You were never a police officer or had any deadly force shootings.

I never said I was a police officer, and it was a suggestion, provided of course BG is not moving. Calm yourself and pull your panties out...

NDCent
12-03-2011, 16:25
Other than possibly standing on his neck to stop a bleeding head wound, he'd probably be on his own until help arrived. :dunno:

H&K 4 LIFE
12-03-2011, 16:30
-Hostile threat/resistive? - It's nothing like the movies or the youtube commando's make it out to be. Just because you put a few bullets into someone does not immediately change their attitude from wanting to kill you to no longer wanting to kill you...

This would be my paramount concern with regards to providing life supportive measures. How combat effective does the assailant remain? It seems unwise to get close enough in order to render aid to someone who, despite being shot, may still be entirely physically capable of harming you... and in addition probably pretty agitated that you shot them.

Misty02
12-03-2011, 16:51
Before rendering first aid to anyone, please be sure you have a general clue as to what you are doing as you can cause more harm than good. Here are some of the basics: http://firstaid.about.com/od/softtissueinjuries/ht/07_gunshots.htm

Just thinking this one through, someone left you with no choice but to use lethal force to defend yourself and now you are going to get within armís reach of that same person? Take a wild guess as to what happens if any part of the first aid rendered worsens their condition.


.

gbhamm2
12-03-2011, 17:00
Take a wild guess as to what happens if any part of the first aid rendered worsens their condition. [/FONT]


.
My guess would be the good samartin law would cover you. But the whole shooting them first could throw a kink in that.

Manolito1
12-03-2011, 17:09
I am a retired EMT-B (Nationally Registered)and I would care for myself and leave it at that. I am not going to a civil hearing and hear about shooting him wasn't bad enough I gave him CPR and pumped the rest of his blood out on the street.
If I did my job in defending myself care for the BG will be performed at the morgue.

Search
12-03-2011, 17:11
Can't speak for EMS but I can say this.

In Law Enforcement, we use deadly force to "stop a threat". Once the "threat" is eliminated, use of force is re-evaluated to determine what's needed. This sounds complicated, but what it means is if a guy is running at you with a knife and you shoot him and he falls to the ground and drops the knife, you cannot walk up and put a bullet in his head.

Our department does not have a policy to render aid. We are to leave them be and wait for EMS.

I've read where some departments were actually sued because officers had to shoot someone and watched them die. Some departments have policy stating officers have an obligation to provide basic care. Don't ask me which because I do not remember.

kdm2
12-03-2011, 21:13
I'm not touching a guy that just tried to kill me.

SgtScott31
12-03-2011, 22:55
There are several variables at play here. It will depend if officers are on or off duty, and if on-duty, agency policy. Although there may be officers who are also EMTs, if they are not obligated to act medically, then they don't have to. My agency does police, fire and EMS. If I shoot someone on-duty then I'm obligated to act as an EMT as well as a LEO, because I'm paid to do both. If I shoot someone outside of work, I don't carry EMS equipment so I will not intervene medically.

SgtScott31
12-03-2011, 23:01
Before rendering first aid to anyone, please be sure you have a general clue as to what you are doing as you can cause more harm than good. Here are some of the basics: http://firstaid.about.com/od/softtissueinjuries/ht/07_gunshots.htm

Just thinking this one through, someone left you with no choice but to use lethal force to defend yourself and now you are going to get within arm’s reach of that same person? Take a wild guess as to what happens if any part of the first aid rendered worsens their condition.


.

I would take an educated guess that I don't see how any treatment would make their condition worse. I have been an EMT for 11 years and an EMS Instructor for half that time. In the most basic AHA First Aid classes I teach the treatment is same for any penetrating wounds. Control bleeding and start CPR if the person is unresponsive and not breathing. If the person is down and the scene has been secured (if you search like you're supposed to), then rendering aid is not necessarily a bad thing. Can the person sue you? sure. Will it go anywhere? highly unlikely. You're not going to make matters worse trying to treat a gunshot wound, regardless of who did the shooting. Besides, most LEOs have little EMS training and wait on medics to arrive anyway. I'm not aware of any successful lawsuits for doing just that, so I'm not sure how actually attempting aid could be any worse.


My guess would be the good samartin law would cover you. But the whole shooting them first could throw a kink in that.


The Good Samaritan law would still be in effect, regardless of whether you did the shooting or not.

txgunguy
12-05-2011, 12:44
For all the non EMS people out there, Guys and Gals, DO NOT get someone's blood or body fluids on you. HIV, Hepatitis A, B, C, Tubercolosis, and other nasties, are all carried in a persons blood and sputum.

If you decide to perform CPR on someone, DO NOT do mouth to mouth. You don't know if they have open sores, blood, or sputum in their mouth. You do not want to catch any of these things.

Chaos88
12-05-2011, 12:54
Not an EMT but have had a reasonable amount of training in the field but about all they would get out of me is advise to keep pressure on it cause those Ranger Ts cause some major bleeds

voomie
12-06-2011, 19:41
I thoughts are "F@#% them! They tried to kill me or one of my loved ones." It is one less person trying to argue against my self-defense case. Also I dont want to explain to my wife how I got exposed to and contracted Hep C or HIV and make her believe I want creeping around behind her back. Also I am no legal obligation to render aid.

Lord
12-06-2011, 19:46
I thoughts are "F@#% them! They tried to kill me or one of my loved ones." It is one less person trying to argue against my self-defense case. Also I dont want to explain to my wife how I got exposed to and contracted Hep C or HIV and make her believe I want creeping around behind her back. Also I am no legal obligation to render aid.

tell us how you really feel

TXMary
12-06-2011, 21:19
Well, I am an RN--so there is that responsibility....but......until someone else(i.e. cops) are on the scene, I think I would still consider myself in jeopardy

PAGunner
12-06-2011, 23:40
Simply doesn't make any sense to give a BG care after a SD shooting. You'd likely be putting yourself at risk, and someone who tried to inflict great bodily harm on me or tried to kill me does not deserve care from me.

RX7Boricua
12-07-2011, 07:27
I would call in the incident to 911, and render what aid I could. If troops in war are required to render aid to enemy combatants, then I should hold myself to the same standard. This is all contingent on scene safety, and me having proper personal protective equipment (which I always have a CPR mask and gloves attached to my key lanyard).

I was reading through the thread wondering how long it would take for someone to make this connection. IMO, there is a HUGE difference between a soldier following orders to engage/kill the enemy and some scumbag who thinks that he can violently prey on me and my family because he wants a few bucks to support his drug habit or whatever. I'm sorry, but the Geneva Conventions simply do not apply to some dirtbag who has chosen to harm/murder another human being only to find that they chose someone who was armed.

If someone randomly decides to attack me or my family, then he played the odds and lost. "If he bleeds out, well that's just too damn bad." -Panzer

Jose

steveksux
12-07-2011, 07:53
Not getting near them. I don't have any effective barriers like gloves to avoid contamination from bodily fluids. If he's alive, and I'm busy tending to him, he can grab my gun. He might have a knife and stick it in my ribs. I would not assume he is more grateful for me rendering aid than he is angry with me for shooting him. He may be determined to take me with him. If I'm with my family and I were mortally wounded I'd surely want to take him with me to make sure he couldn't hurt them after I'm incapacitated.

He could have other weapons on him. His bodily fluids can be deadly. No reason to put yourself in range of either of them.

When EMS shows up on scene, I believe they hang back until the cops secure the scene. EMS won't treat the wounded perp until he's handcuffed, searched and secured. Any EMT's out there to confirm or deny that? I'm not sure. Sure sounds like a good idea to me though.

Randy

HexHead
12-07-2011, 08:04
I would call in the incident to 911, and render what aid I could. If troops in war are required to render aid to enemy combatants, then I should hold myself to the same standard.

I'm not sure I would equate enemy troops to a common thug. They're trying o kill you because it's their job, just like you're trying to kill them. The thug is just trying to harm you for his own profit.

Sharky7
12-07-2011, 09:58
When EMS shows up on scene, I believe they hang back until the cops secure the scene. EMS won't treat the wounded perp until he's handcuffed, searched and secured. Any EMT's out there to confirm or deny that? I'm not sure. Sure sounds like a good idea to me though.

Randy

You are correct. It is called "staging" in most places. The medics will stage until the scene is secure. They wont even pull up onto the scene until it's secure - they will stay blocks or further away depending on the incident.

This happens even on non gun calls sometimes. You have a violent fight or domestic, medics will hold off until scene is secure to retrieve and assist the patients.

Sam Spade
12-07-2011, 10:16
Some of y'all need to work on your articulation. It would be a bad thing to survive the shoot and then have terms like "depraved indifference" applied to you.

There are valid reasons not to approach or treat someone you just shot. A number of posters have done quite well in explaining. But "eff him" is not really in that category.

FireForged
12-07-2011, 11:05
A person who moments ago presented a immediate danger to my life is not someone I am going to get near once I have a chance to get away. Call for help, yes... Stand around and see what I can do... probably not.

Orive 8
12-07-2011, 11:37
I will stay back in a position of cover, watching the individual to insure that he no longer presents a threat. Aid will consist of calling 911 and reguesting Police and Medical assistance.