Ideas for shft hand out weapon in .223

[efman]

hey guys, I just recently sold all my ak stuff and made the switch over to the ar-15 platform (which I love). but I"m trying to think of a rifle to buy a few of that is chambered in the same caliber and relatively inexpensive. I was saving for a few sks and a few bolt guns chambered in 7.62x39 but Now I'm looking for the same in .223/55.6 thanks for any suggestions! :wavey:

[mikeflys1]

hey guys, I just recently sold all my ak stuff and made the switch over to the ar-15 platform (which I love). but I"m trying to think of a rifle to buy a few of that is chambered in the same caliber and relatively inexpensive. I was saving for a few sks and a few bolt guns chambered in 7.62x39 but Now I'm looking for the same in .223/55.6 thanks for any suggestions! :wavey:

Saigas are pretty cheap and you can even get adapters to use AR mags.

[TJ AK-74]

Depends on who your handing them out to and why. If its primarily for hunting, get some H&R or NEF single shots ($200-ish?). If you are defending against multiple armed assailants, get some cheap Saigas ($300-350-ish). Or just get a couple of each :juggle:

[RED64CJ5]

I'm not a fan of hand-outs, but if you want something relatively inexpensive and simple to use, look at New England Firearms Handi-rifles.

[Arvinator]

If I were going to look for a good handout rifle in .223 for family/friends I would consider a scoped bolt action rifle. Sighted to say 150 yards and if the scope craps out trash it and back to irons.
I have a pair of SKS rifles, and my Father in Law has a SKS as "Spares".

[45reloader]

Savage AXIS. 223

[Doc8404]

just be careful of using 5.56 in the 223....I know most of us know that, but some seem to generalize it.....so i wonder.

[fgutie35]

A WARSAW-3.Just make sure to get the German made mags for it.

[Doc8404]

Savage AXIS. 223 or 5.56 approved.

I must've missed the 5.56 on the site...shows 223 only.

[45reloader]

I must've missed the 5.56 on the site...shows 223 only.

Bud's. Is listing it that way.

[Doc8404]

thanks, but I'll stick with what Savage shows.
Too many people think "ohhh, 223, same as 5.56..."
yeah, size wise.....

[emt1581]

For $299 I don't think you'll do better than a Saiga. I LOVE their x39's and a probably going to buy another one. I honestly have no experience with their 5.56 versions though.

For a handout rifle I'd sooner spend either $75 and buy a Mosin Nagant or if you want semi-auto with punch get an SKS for under $200.

-Emt1581

[AK_Stick]

My general thought is this.


If I'm handing out a rifle, its obviously someone either in my group, or someone I trust. Therefore I want them to have something compatible with what I have.

SKS's are ok if you're also using x39.

Mosins pretty much suck at life. While I have a couple, they're the kind of gun that I would trade to someone else, because they're outclassed by just about everything, including your average store bought hunting rifle.

I planning on using the AR pattern rifle. Hence any other rifle I use, will be compatible with the AR mag at the very least. If you wanted cheaper, a Ruger or CZ bolt in 223 would be a good choice.

[efman]

For $299 I don't think you'll do better than a Saiga. I LOVE their x39's and a probably going to buy another one. I honestly have no experience with their 5.56 versions though.

For a handout rifle I'd sooner spend either $75 and buy a Mosin Nagant or if you want semi-auto with punch get an SKS for under $200.

-Emt1581

.223 and .308 are my MAIN rifle calibers, I sold all my 7.62x39 so I'm trying to stay away from it atleast for the time being.

I think I might look at one of those "handi" rifles.

can someone tell me what I could expect to buy a wars-3 for?

[W.E.G.]

Hand out only brooms and wash buckets to persons who are so ill-prepared that they don't even have their own weapon.

The idea that you can cobble-together an effective defensive squad from a group of unprepared know-nothings on a moments notice is dangerous fantasy.

[AK_Stick]

Well, on the flip side. You never know whats going to happen that they could show up without a weapon.


SHTF, house is burnt/looted/destroyed before they could secure their long gun etc.

[SDDL-UP]

AR-180B, V18, whatever they are being called these days. Those would probably be right at the top of my list for "hand out" rifles in 223/5.56

[efman]

Hand out only brooms and wash buckets to persons who are so ill-prepared that they don't even have their own weapon.

The idea that you can cobble-together an effective defensive squad from a group of unprepared know-nothings on a moments notice is dangerous fantasy.

I don't have some red dawn fantasy of arming random people. but lets say my brother (who I grew up shooting with) is still in college and doesn't have the money to have an ar-15 and all the cool stuff to go along with it. or one of my best friends who is a cop (who is actually trained unlike most) but has a young family and can't spend 1500 bucks on a set up when he has a young child and wife. that's more of what I am thinking of. plus I like to buy guns.... this is my excuse for more assault rifles.

[M1A Shooter]

i wont give a rifle out to anyone but a select few in my group that may have had to leave theirs behind, or my brother who is in the military so he doesnt have a personal rifle just yet but is an army ranger.

i would rather have an extra AR15 or two than 2 or 4 saigas. especially since you can get rifles in the 600 range or less if you look around/ build your own.

these extra rifles may not be as nice or have the extra add ons i have on mine but a basic iron sighted rifle in the hands of a shooter will be better than a broom.

[JohnnyReb]

Hand out only brooms and wash buckets to persons who are so ill-prepared that they don't even have their own weapon.

The idea that you can cobble-together an effective defensive squad from a group of unprepared know-nothings on a moments notice is dangerous fantasy.

A: Who is to say how things will go down? They may be seperated from their own SHTF stash.
B: I have members of my family and friends with a very desirable skill set, which don't store firearms or enough ammunition. Most hunters I know don't have thousands of rounds at hand
C: Things break.

Its fantasy to believe circumstances might dictate that you loan a gun and supplies to those close to you.

To assume otherwise is dangerous IMHO.

[quake]

One example of why it "could" be nice to have some extras to give to folks is our closest neighbors. The dad is a keebler employee, no guns, no prep stuff. The twin boys are 20-ish now; former local high-school football stars, and currently college track runners. I've taken the boys hunting more than once, and while they do own shotguns (this is the country after all), I'd absolutely give them a simple rifle or two. I've taken them rifle shooting, and trust them more than I trust 99% of grown men out there.

If the "bad things" hit their house before ours, I could help them somewhat from our house; but without rifles, the reverse wouldn't be true (if the bad things hit us first), as we're within rifle distance, but not shotgun distance.

I've also got a brother who's retired and lives on a golf course. His only rifle now is a bolt-action moisin with 60-80 rounds of ammo. I'd definitely give him one - a simple, moderate-caliber one - if the opportunity presented itself; and probably a handgun as well.

All that's as to the "why" or "who" a person might want to be able to arm. As far as "with what", while I'd rather give out AR's, I'm more likely to give out simpler guns - pistol-calber semiautos, leverguns, etc. In .223/5.56, I'd be looking for bolt actions & even leverguns, although the only .223 levergun I know is the BLR, and an AR could probably be had for the same money if that really is the only option. On bolt actions, I've seen numerous in that caliber at gun shows under $400-$450. Even a $250 single-shot like the H&R as a 'giveaway' wouldn't be out of consideration for me personally, as long as it had an ejector and not just an extractor.

I know that this isn't what you were asking for, but just for consideration - for the price of a spare AR, a person could probably get a 9mm carbine or magnum-handgun caliber levergun and a half-thousand rounds to go with either one. Because if we have to give someone a gun, we'll almost certainly have to give them the ammunition to go with it.

[jwhite75]

I like the Kel-tec SU-16

The NEF and H&R guns are pretty great too as they can be bought very cheap.

[inzone]

these are very big on my list....I figure that a small armed group is really the key to optimizing survival....and if ya want somethin done the best way is to do it yourself...put your small group together and arm them if you have to..as long as you have plenty of beans and rice etc to feed them... leadership is planning ahead and putting the logistics together....

[arclight610]

Saiga's are going for $299 right now across the board because of some importer contract issue. Everyone is trying to undercut each others prices to get the contract, so their competition is your benefit.

[Hour13]

This is an interesting thought. It is true though, you never know what the situation will dictate. My ammo stock being what it is?

For myself? AR15 primary & G22 sidearm.

My choice of "Handout" combos? Mini-14s & Sigma .40s for my friends/family.

Not the most "Tacti-cool" guns, but cheap, reliable, & easy to learn.

[Akita]

You can build a new AR here for <$600 OTD.
Also agree with the Keltec, but thats getting close to a new AR.

[rem2429]

AR 15.
They are so stinking cheap to build right now, and with decent parts.
I can't imagine arming a nation, just family and friends at most, so I'd like to keep them breathing.
You can get an AK pattern weapon about as cheap as an SKS these days.

[Bilbo Bagins]

Saiga's are going for $299 right now across the board because of some importer contract issue. Everyone is trying to undercut each others prices to get the contract, so their competition is your benefit.

If that the case, then Saiga may be the winner, in terms of price.

For Noobs I would thinking of getting a few Rossi single shots with the multiple barrels.

http://www.rossiusa.com/product-details.cfm?id=51&category=3&toggle=&breadcrumbseries=

I still think the Kel Tec SU-16 is a great option, especially at just under $500, and if you already have AR mags. The Ruger Mini-14 would have be a good choice if they were priced more reasonably.

[Aceman]

Mosins pretty much suck at life. While I have a couple, they're the kind of gun that I would trade to someone else, because they're outclassed by just about everything, including your average store bought hunting rifle.

There are thousands and thousands of dead Germans, killed at ranges well beyond 200 yards, that would beg to differ with you on that point.

Considering that a Mosin and 500 rounds is ~ $150, and even a junky AR and 500 rounds is well over $1000...and we won't even get into the reliability/durability/simplicity issue.

But, since it's you sweety pie, I will mention this: Anything your magic AR can kill, a 7.62x54 can kill ten times as dead guaranteed at any given range and put a bad hurt on it a lot further (waits for the "but the 5.56 tumbles rhetoric)

for simple, cheap, reliable handout - Mosin can't be beat.

[emt1581]

Saiga's are going for $299 right now across the board because of some importer contract issue. Everyone is trying to undercut each others prices to get the contract, so their competition is your benefit.

Can any be had for the WITH free shipping?

Thanks

-Emt1581

[ancient_serpent]

There are thousands and thousands of dead Germans, killed at ranges well beyond 200 yards, that would beg to differ with you on that point.

Considering that a Mosin and 500 rounds is ~ $150, and even a junky AR and 500 rounds is well over $1000...and we won't even get into the reliability/durability/simplicity issue.

But, since it's you sweety pie, I will mention this: Anything your magic AR can kill, a 7.62x54 can kill ten times as dead guaranteed at any given range and put a bad hurt on it a lot further (waits for the "but the 5.56 tumbles rhetoric)

for simple, cheap, reliable handout - Mosin can't be beat.

Not sure if you're trying to be funny or not. If so, then my apologies.
No such thing as "ten times as dead". You either successfully engage a threat or not. The only way the Mosin is "superior" to the AR is it is cheaper (much cheaper) and uses a more powerful cartridge. The AR has been used to great effect in several different wars in various terrain over the last 40+ years. It has superior accuracy, many times the magazine capacity, better sighting systems, better ergonomics, less recoil, non-corrosive ammunition, etc.
That said, I actually agree with your last sentence: For (a) simple, cheap reliable handout, Mosin can't be beat.

[expatman]

There are thousands and thousands of dead Germans, killed at ranges well beyond 200 yards, that would beg to differ with you on that point.

Considering that a Mosin and 500 rounds is ~ $150, and even a junky AR and 500 rounds is well over $1000...and we won't even get into the reliability/durability/simplicity issue.

But, since it's you sweety pie, I will mention this: Anything your magic AR can kill, a 7.62x54 can kill ten times as dead guaranteed at any given range and put a bad hurt on it a lot further (waits for the "but the 5.56 tumbles rhetoric)

for simple, cheap, reliable handout - Mosin can't be beat.

I would much rather kill or even wound 10 bad guys than to kill 1 bad guy 10 times over.

[bdcochran]

The term "handout" implies unskilled recipients. Let's rethink.

You can teach a 15 year old girl the rudiments of loading, unloading and firing a single shot shotgun in about 15 minutes. If you use a sandbag rest, you can also shoot a 12 ga. slug accurately some 200 yards on steel.

Essentially, untrained and unskilled people are cannon fodder when shtf. If (a very big if) you had the time to train someone to shoot a rifle it would take some time - and time is something you will not have. Consquently, anything that you "handout" is a just a noise maker.

Most scenarios would not play out Red Dawn or a Chuck Norris film. The probability will be an ugly urban or suburban encounter in bad light at close range - and the people with the "handouts" will not need many rounds or last very many encounters. Don't spend money on sophisticated equipment - buy other people's handoffs that function in the used gun rack. Thoughts like commonality of parts and ammo will be meaningless.

[TangoFoxtrot]

Anybody have a link to Saiga?

[Aceman]

The term "handout" implies unskilled recipients. Let's rethink.

You can teach a 15 year old girl the rudiments of loading, unloading and firing a single shot shotgun in about 15 minutes. If you use a sandbag rest, you can also shoot a 12 ga. slug accurately some 200 yards on steel.

Essentially, untrained and unskilled people are cannon fodder when shtf. If (a very big if) you had the time to train someone to shoot a rifle it would take some time - and time is something you will not have. Consquently, anything that you "handout" is a just a noise maker.

Most scenarios would not play out Red Dawn or a Chuck Norris film. The probability will be an ugly urban or suburban encounter in bad light at close range - and the people with the "handouts" will not need many rounds or last very many encounters. Don't spend money on sophisticated equipment - buy other people's handoffs that function in the used gun rack. Thoughts like commonality of parts and ammo will be meaningless.


All great points!

If you are a shooter, you likely have your weapon, but not necessarily.

Still, novice with a Mosin will be a potential defensive benefit, IMO (or anything that works).

I think the cheap SG is a good suggestion also.

Man - can you imagine if Chuck Norris were in Red Dawn - that would have been awesome! Would have lasted less than 30 minutes! :rofl:

[quake]

...can you imagine if Chuck Norris were in Red Dawn - that would have been awesome! Would have lasted less than 30 minutes! :rofl:

He's ok. A little touchy-feely for me personally though...








:cool:

[inzone]

my basic plan,fwiw, is to use mosins and my hodgepodge of break open shotguns, etc to be force mulitipliers to arm my small group...and if the group gets a bit bigger from johhny come latelys as well...

[Dalton Wayne]

I would hand out Mosin's to use to capture a better rifle

[emt1581]

I would hand out Mosin's to use to capture a better rifle

Kinda like the Liberator method.

-Emt1581

[inzone]

reminds me of the motto I heard from the filipinos in WWII.....two sticks firestick! The Filipinos who were poorly armed used their fighting sticks and machetes against the Japanese to capture the japanese firearms and ammo.... kind of like trading up!

[bdcochran]

The next thing will be that you will read about building black powder arms and use homemade black powder.

Here is some reality:

1. do you want shtf to happen and you will depend upon your unskilled, untrained neighbor or relative to operate like SF, Force Recon, or an Army Ranger? Of course not.
2. sure, a lot of Germans were killed beyond 200 yards. I will make an observation that will make your hair curl. In WWII, there was an effort to take college men and train them to be officers because it was expected that the war would go until 1948. When Eisenhower saw the advances after Normandy, he put out the call for more troops. The "college men" were sent over and fed piecemeal to the front lines. Of course, the newbies were the ones being killed. Education didn't make a difference. Experience and skills made the difference in staying alive.
3. Give a neighbor a rifle (only 9% of American males under age 65 ever served in the military) and all you have is an unskilled neighbor with a rifle. They are the ones who don't train, don't have skills and don't care. It is too late when shtf to provide an accurate tool that cannot be used to effect. Don't believe me? Ok. Take a kid or adult with no training to the range. Set up metal at 200 yards. Do you think that the kid will hit the metal with the first shot? For the second shot, put a metal target up at 100 yards. You get the picture. It is too late at the moment of shtf to expect performance.
4. set up metal at 25 yards and give some one a single shot shot gun and a slug. Will he hit the target? Will it matter where the target is hit?

[volsbear]

With no limitations to the potential scenarios we ponder, there appears to be an argument either way.

[inzone]

Our neighborhood may be unusual..I dunno...but just down the street we have an ex-Vietnam Vet, Ranger/company commander, Burma Hump pilot (he's old but still sharp and feisty), ex-Vietnam fighter pilot (maybe not much on firearms but he did have SERE training and he's tough minded), young paratrooper in the National Guard, lives at home with his parents, a West Point graduate, no combat, but smart and he is a prepper..., and retired Airline pilot (no military but he was qualified in the aircrew/CCW after 911, before he retired.... and a few older men who had basic training and did at least one tour of duty... etc... point being that I still htink there is at least a plausible "contingency plan" for considering arming some selected neighbors/friends/family if shtf....

[Cali-Glock]

Sarco $399 surplus kits and wait till lowers go on sale for sub $100 out the door.

[AK_Stick]

There are thousands and thousands of dead Germans, killed at ranges well beyond 200 yards, that would beg to differ with you on that point.

Considering that a Mosin and 500 rounds is ~ $150, and even a junky AR and 500 rounds is well over $1000...and we won't even get into the reliability/durability/simplicity issue.

But, since it's you sweety pie, I will mention this: Anything your magic AR can kill, a 7.62x54 can kill ten times as dead guaranteed at any given range and put a bad hurt on it a lot further (waits for the "but the 5.56 tumbles rhetoric)

for simple, cheap, reliable handout - Mosin can't be beat.


Yeah, there are lots of dead Germans from WWII, but we're not fighting WWII, and a bolt gun, sucks as a fighting rifle today. The P-51 also shot down more enemy fighters than the F-15, but I don't think anyone would suggest it as a logical choice today. Nor, is someone deader because they got hit by a x54 round, than if they got hit by a 5.56 round. However, any advantage the x54 has in energy, I would contend is offset by its markedly increased recoil, muzzle blast and sound, and lack of accuracy from the platform shooting it.

If you're handing out a rifle for someone to feed themselves with, yes, a Mosin is a VERY good choice. Its cheap, and its pretty much a rimmed 30-06. I would still say you'd be better off with a cheap commercial off the shelf rifle like the Mossberg 4x4 or Rem/Winchester/Savage/Ruger/CZ rifle with sights, and the ability to mount a scope than a Mosin though.

If you're handing out a rifle for someone to defend themselves with because of their performance in a war that none of us were around to see, and fought in a way no one today fights, you're setting them up for failure. I can not think of a single course of fire, where a I would prefer a Mosin over just about any other rifle.

Whats more, the OP specifically asked for 5.56/223 weapons.


Lastly, if you're handing out a weapon to someone, I think we can all agree, its probably someone you trust, and almost assuredly someone you're depending upon for mutual protection/welfare of the group?

Why then would equip them with a weapon that doesn't share cartridge, or magazines and isn't compatible with your chosen platforms? Similarly, if they're part of your defensive strategy, wouldn't it make more sense to choose a weapon that isn't completely out of date?

I.E. I have AR's so any firearm that I have that I would loan out, will be able at the very least to use an AR style mag, or E-mag.


I understand price is an issue, but I wasn't ever saying you should keep a couple of 1K AR 15's for loaners. All I was saying, was use something compatible with your weapon of choice, if only by caliber.


If you like AK's, wouldn't it make more sense to have a 5 SKS's or 5 Siaga's than 7 mosins?

If you like AR's but you don't want to spend the money, what about a rifle like the Kel-Tech SU-16 or Remington 7615 Pump? uses the same mags, and cost is significantly less than an AR.

[AK_Stick]

The term "handout" implies unskilled recipients. Let's rethink.

You can teach a 15 year old girl the rudiments of loading, unloading and firing a single shot shotgun in about 15 minutes. If you use a sandbag rest, you can also shoot a 12 ga. slug accurately some 200 yards on steel.

Essentially, untrained and unskilled people are cannon fodder when shtf. If (a very big if) you had the time to train someone to shoot a rifle it would take some time - and time is something you will not have. Consquently, anything that you "handout" is a just a noise maker.

Most scenarios would not play out Red Dawn or a Chuck Norris film. The probability will be an ugly urban or suburban encounter in bad light at close range - and the people with the "handouts" will not need many rounds or last very many encounters. Don't spend money on sophisticated equipment - buy other people's handoffs that function in the used gun rack. Thoughts like commonality of parts and ammo will be meaningless.


And as the military has found out, simply putting a gun in the hands of a person, and giving them some rudimentary teaching in sights, does not make them a soldier.

Its taken us a hell of alot of money, and training to get soldiers to kill others. Its shockingly well documented how often people will purposely miss other humans, even when those people are trying to kill them.


I do disagree with the last sentence though, even after they're gone, a weapon you gave to a cannon fodder, can still be scrounged up for parts, or handed out again.

[emt1581]

Its taken us a hell of alot of money, and training to get soldiers to kill others. Its shockingly well documented how often people will purposely miss other humans, even when those people are trying to kill them.


This is for another thread but I'm HIGHLY interested in learning more about this specifically the psychological aspect of it.

As far as the SU-16, I agree but I can build a decent AR for just a tad more...and I don't mean the tad lots of gun guys like to put out there and it ends up being $300+ more...I'm talking less than $100, at least after looking at the Charlie model that what I've deduced.

-Emt1581

[smokeross]

Just give them whatever weapons you scrounge off the corpses of your attackers. They can cover you with them while you place the headless bodies across the road to your compound, and mount the severed heads on stakes for future attackers to see. Should give everyone a pretty good grasp of the situation.:whistling:

[M1A Shooter]

This is for another thread but I'm HIGHLY interested in learning more about this specifically the psychological aspect of it.

-Emt1581

Look up a book titled "On Killing" by LTC Grossman. talks in detail about training soldiers to kill and the psychological effects of being able to deal with that afterwards. "On Combat" by the same author is about the broader effects of prolonged combat and the stresses involved on soldiers as well. I read both after coming home from my first tour to Iraq and it helped me. I only wish i would have read it beforehand.

[emt1581]

Look up a book titled "On Killing" by LTC Grossman. talks in detail about training soldiers to kill and the psychological effects of being able to deal with that afterwards. "On Combat" by the same author is about the broader effects of prolonged combat and the stresses involved on soldiers as well. I read both after coming home from my first tour to Iraq and it helped me. I only wish i would have read it beforehand.

I can't remember the last book I bought...probably a text book in grad school. But I mean a book I buy just to read...it has to be a good 20 years. I believe it would have been something by Shel Silverstein or maybe "How to Eat Fried Worms" back in elementary school. Anyways.... both of the books you talked about sound like ones I'd be interested in.

Thanks for the info.

EDIT: I found a video series on the author talking about the very issue of killing, or rather the hesitation of troops when attempting to do so...however due to the language, gore (they show executions and plenty of dead bodies) I won't post the link here. Just typie in "The Truth About Killing" on youtube. Very interesting stuff.

-Emt1581

[ScrappyDoo]

Can't See how you can beat a $299 Saiga. I am scheming on Classic Arms 7.62 $299 model and maybe ten $9.99 magazines ) ten rounders being fine for my NJ laws (

[Cali-Glock]

Can't See how you can beat a $299 Saiga. I am scheming on Classic Arms 7.62 $299 model and maybe ten $9.99 magazines ) ten rounders being fine for my NJ laws (

Wow some great deals -



http://classicarms.us/images/saiga165.jpg
.223 CALIBER...ITEM # SAIGA-223......Special........... $299.99
545X39 CALIBER..ITEM # SAIGA-545..Special........... $299.99
7.62X39 CALIBER...ITEM # SAIGA....Special...............$299.99
.410 GA. SHOTGUN..ITEM # SAIGA.410..Special........ $299.99
All of the Saiga firearms above are new in factory boxes with factory accessories. Rifles are 16.5" barrels Shotgun barrel is 19"

http://classicarms.us/semi-auto%20rifles.htm

[ScrappyDoo]

Cali- not only great deals on them, the $299 gets you the real AK caliber, the .223 so its compatible with your AR collections ( a bonus to many for sure), the 5.45 caliber which is basically the cheapest ammo around now (I honestly think sometimes it would be smarter to forego adding to my small 223/556 collection, forego adding to a 762/39 collection, forego adding to any of my other shotgun/handgun/rimfire collection, and buy a 5.45 AK type and a few thou rounds cause its just so CHEAP... thousand round tins for a hundred some bucks etc.)

PLUS ClassicArms is selling a whole page full of Saiga accessories... Scope mounts, scopes, quad rails, this that the other, everything you want and need and even combos- a mount and scope, etc. and 7.62 mags for $10 WOOHOO plus others.

just a good idea right now.

[volsbear]

On topic, and for the Grossman fans -

Watch him speak some day (I saw him in March) and he'll advocate that the police identify and enlist armed citizens in case of grave emergencies as well as armed citizens identifying capable (psychologically and physically) peers with whom to forge alliances should the excrement strike the oscillating device.

[emt1581]

On topic, and for the Grossman fans -

Watch him speak some day (I saw him in March) and he'll advocate that the police identify and enlist armed citizens in case of grave emergencies as well as armed citizens identifying capable (psychologically and physically) peers with whom to forge alliances should the excrement strike the oscillating device.

In those videos he makes a LOT of sense in terms of psychology and physiology. Most of the stuff he talks about (I.E. Soldiers INTENTIONALLY missing enemy target) I've never heard or imagined before.

As far as police enlisting CCWers... no thanks. I've known a few true jerks that were pretty thuggish and had their licenses to carry. I have no problem protecting myself/family, friends, station and possibly neighborhood...but being ordered around by cops in SHTF times...NOT going to happen!! If I know everyone is taken care of and am asked for help... that'd be on a case by case basis.

-Emt1581

[Dirk Pitt]

I like the Kel-tec SU-16

The NEF and H&R guns are pretty great too as they can be bought very cheap.


+1 on SU-16, find what it likes (it can be picky) and use that. Once you have that load it has yet to malfunction. In my experince it does NOT like steel cased rounds, just my experience.

[Pitt]

If you show up on my door without arms of your own, you are SOL. I've got enough on my hands making sure that me and mine will be covered in a time of crisis.

I mean its not like most of us are not talking to our loved ones about how bad things are getting. IMO most folks realize that the Ish is hitting the fan and they still aren't making any moves to do anything about it. :steamed:

[RMTactical]

Saiga in 5.56

[SilverCity]

Saiga in 5.56

Good choice. I have a few for that purpose.

SC

[G26man]

Just in case you are considering the handi rifle, I had a Survivor model in .223. It would chamber and shoot 5.56 fine but it had a 1/12 twist. Anything over 55gr would keyhole, including M855/SS109.

[RMTactical]

Good choice. I have a few for that purpose.

SC

They are actually fairly cheap to convert as well (Maybe $120), if you desire that...