What will a 40 S&W do that a 45acp +P won't [Archive] - Glock Talk

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Dalton Wayne
12-05-2011, 17:48
I carry 45 acp, just wondering what the main advantage of the 45 over the 40 would be, not trying to start a cal war just the facts please

Trigger Finger
12-05-2011, 18:04
I think it makes a bigger hole and thus is not as dependent on expansion! The 45ACP+P is a step more powerful then the 45ACP and I prefere this. It generates more power then the 45ACP and much more power and knockdown ability then the 40.

It fires a bigger, heavier and faster slug and I prefer it. For CCW, however, I prefer the 40 Cal. The 40 comes in a smaller pistol and is nearly as powerful as the 45ACP but way behind the 45ACP+P IMHO.

As per your title of the thread, I am not referring to a 10MM.

4TS&W
12-05-2011, 18:08
I think it makes a bigger hole and thus is not as dependent on expansion!

It fires a bigger and heavier slug and I prefer it. For CCW, however, I prefer the 40 Cal. The 40 comes in a smaller pistol and is nearly as powerful.

And has an edge on capacity.. :whistling:

Danny Reid
12-05-2011, 18:11
Compared to the 45 ACP+P, the only advantage I see for the 40 S&W is higher magazine capacity.

K.Kiser
12-05-2011, 18:16
Capacity ---- very important in a panicked defense situation, the last 2-3 rounds could save your life... The slight power difference, negligable a best...

cowboy1964
12-05-2011, 18:54
45 still needs expansion to be as effective as it can be. The idea that a .45 hole is going to be noticeably better than a .40 hole is ridiculous. All other things being equal every little bit helps but everything is not equal.

J_P
12-05-2011, 19:57
Some would argue that the snappy recoil of the .40S&W negates the capacity that it has over the .45ACP due to faster follow up shoots. IMO if you practice with YOUR weapon it should not matter, whatever you can shoot the best for yourself.

Brucev
12-05-2011, 20:17
I carry 45 acp, just wondering what the main advantage of the 45 over the 40 would be, not trying to start a cal war just the facts please I like the .45 ACP... and the .40 S&W. Either is a fine choice for personal protection/home defense, etc. In the Glock, the .40 S&W is just about ideal. I've fired 1,000's of rounds of it and never found it lacking. On the other hand, I've been shooting 1911 .45 ACP pistols for 30 years. With the very good quality JHP ammo currently available, the .45 ACP is just about ideal for personal protection and home defense. I've never been impressed with the +P loads. I don't see that they offer much over the standard loads. But then I don't go around shooting water jugs on the other side of car doors and refrigerators. This afternoon I had a goood time firing my 9mm Beretta and my Rock Island Armory .45 ACP. Either would be very good for the above mentioned usages. In fact, if it came down to it, the 9mm Beretta would be very useful indeed... about like the .40 S&W or the .45 ACP. There is very little difference between them. The .40 would offer a little better capacity and penetration. For those who favor sow heavy bullets, the .45 would get the nod. The Glock 21 would allow good capacity.

DWARREN123
12-05-2011, 20:21
Not a lot of difference, just pick what you like! :supergrin:

glock20c10mm
12-05-2011, 20:40
IMO the pros/cons of each cancel out and leave them on equal ground overall.

After that it's just as simple as choosing which way the individual prefers the pros/cons to stack up, and pick one.

dvrdwn72
12-05-2011, 20:51
.40 s&w is cheaper than the .45. Unless you reload, but then if you reload, you would want a .40, so you can load 10mm too! It's about equal between the .40 and .45

W.E.G.
12-05-2011, 21:04
Fits in the same size Glock frame as the G17 and more rounds.

What's not to like?

Tiro Fijo
12-05-2011, 21:40
Word on the street is that SWAT officers using the Fed. 230 gr. HST +p are saying it's the closest thing they've seen to a "death ray" and no, I don't even own .45 ACP & haven't since 2009. Just passing on what I've read. :whistling:

beforeobamabans
12-06-2011, 05:02
I'm getting to the age where I have a little arthritis and the 230+p flat out hurts my wrist. It's hard for me to shoot more than a single magazine. I don't own 40 figuring that one step larger and one smaller should cover everything it can do.

automan
12-06-2011, 05:43
I carry 45 acp, just wondering what the main advantage of the 45 over the 40 would be, not trying to start a cal war just the facts please

Less barrel wear, bigger hole, better recoil control, more weapons chambered for 45 auto than 40 S&W, more .45 auto manufacturers' availability and variety. More likely to find 45 auto overseas than 40 S&W.

Leigh
12-06-2011, 06:28
[QUOTE=automan;18249462] more weapons chambered for 45 auto than 40 S&W, more .45 auto manufacturers' availability and variety.

Doubtful.

barth
12-06-2011, 07:59
I carry 45 acp, just wondering what the main advantage of the 45 over the 40 would be, not trying to start a cal war just the facts please

Back when bullets didn't expand reliably the 45 had the pre-expansion advantage.

Today, with high tech ammo,
(Winchester Ranger T-Series, Speer bonded GDHP, Federal HST)
I see no advantage to 45 over 40 at all.

Update:
40 has the advantage of higher capacity, smaller platform and
less recoil. That's why it out numbers 45 by a wide margin with LE.

dpadams6
12-06-2011, 11:31
Most of the statistics I have seen. The 45 is no better than the 40. In fact, I've seen more 40 rounds in the 90%+ than the 45.....

glock20c10mm
12-06-2011, 11:40
I carry 45 acp, just wondering what the main advantage of the 45 over the 40 would be, not trying to start a cal war just the facts please
On my 1st go around I miscomprehended what your specific question was.

You want to know the MAIN advantage(s) of the 45 over the 40.

Or more/less; Does 45 Auto have an advantage over 40S&W, and if so, what is it or what are they.

I would generally say no. Equal in many cases, but not better the vast majority of the time. The exception comes in when singling out maybe the top 2 or 3 loads that give maximum expanded diameter in 45. And if you're not carrying one of them (most notably HST) then you're out of advantages of the 45 over 40 for all practical purposes whatsoever.

I mean...and keeping the discussion between 40 & 45...if you're not carrying 45 to theoretically poke the largest diameter hole, then WHY?

45 is NOT faster than 40.
45 does NOT hit with more energy than 40.
In most cases 45 does not out-expand 40 any amount worth mentioning.
45 offers LESS round count in same size platforms compared to 40.
45 recoils differently, but not generally less than 40.
45 is NOT cheaper to shoot than 40.

At the end of the day, unless maybe your love for the 1911 platform is that great, and/or you choose to carry one of about three rounds in 45 that out-expand 40 to any extent worth mentioning, I have no idea why someone would carry 45.

And now to put my own personal twist on things; I would carry 9mm +P/+P+ before either 40 or 45. I would carry 357SIG before 9mm +P/+P+. And lastly I would and do carry 10mm Auto before all of them, and don't own a single one of any of the others. The only way that may change is if in the future I decide to purchase one of the micro-9s for the times my G29 is too large in some scenarios.


BTW, what is your platform of choice for the 45 Auto?

fredj338
12-06-2011, 14:04
I carry 45 acp, just wondering what the main advantage of the 45 over the 40 would be, not trying to start a cal war just the facts please

Well the nature of the question is going to start some kind of caliber war. I also like the 45acp as my primary fighting round. Mostly because of the platform, I love the 1911. I am quite comfy carrying 9mm or 40 though, but as you go smaller, the choice of ammo is more critical IMO. The 45 will always be 45 even if the bullet fails to expand, it's still a pretty big hole.
Downside, low ammo cap or bigger guns. The XDcompact is a good balance of rounds vs size. In states like Kalif, the mag cap isn't as big a factor; 10+1 max vs 8+1.:dunno: I am happy defending myself w/ either. It's always coming down to the shooter before the gun or ammo. If the shooter is up to speed & more than just capable, then I feel the larger frontal area & possible expanded dia/larger hole in the target gives a tiny edge to the 45acp. Many gunfights are won on the margins, I'll take that.

Roering
12-06-2011, 14:22
A 45 will make them more dead.

Trigger Finger
12-06-2011, 15:04
On my 1st go around I miscomprehended what your specific question was.

You want to know the MAIN advantage(s) of the 45 over the 40.

Or more/less; Does 45 Auto have an advantage over 40S&W, and if so, what is it or what are they.

I would generally say no. Equal in many cases, but not better the vast majority of the time. The exception comes in when singling out maybe the top 2 or 3 loads that give maximum expanded diameter in 45. And if you're not carrying one of them (most notably HST) then you're out of advantages of the 45 over 40 for all practical purposes whatsoever.

I mean...and keeping the discussion between 40 & 45...if you're not carrying 45 to theoretically poke the largest diameter hole, then WHY?

45 is NOT faster than 40.
45 does NOT hit with more energy than 40.
In most cases 45 does not out-expand 40 any amount worth mentioning.
45 offers LESS round count in same size platforms compared to 40.
45 recoils differently, but not generally less than 40.
45 is NOT cheaper to shoot than 40.

At the end of the day, unless maybe your love for the 1911 platform is that great, and/or you choose to carry one of about three rounds in 45 that out-expand 40 to any extent worth mentioning, I have no idea why someone would carry 45.

And now to put my own personal twist on things; I would carry 9mm +P/+P+ before either 40 or 45. I would carry 357SIG before 9mm +P/+P+. And lastly I would and do carry 10mm Auto before all of them, and don't own a single one of any of the others. The only way that may change is if in the future I decide to purchase one of the micro-9s for the times my G29 is too large in some scenarios.


BTW, what is your platform of choice for the 45 Auto?


After such a long dissertation and you don't even own a 40, 45 or 9mm!!!

I have no idea how someone with so little experience could come up with such a supposition. Have you ever seen what a 45 ACP can do to a person and compair that to what a 9 MM will do? I have, and I don't pretend to act with such arrogance.

toshbar
12-06-2011, 15:23
Here is what it boils down to:

Would you rather me hit you in the head with a 4lb crowbar or a 3.6lb 4D cell maglite?

K.Kiser
12-06-2011, 15:42
Here is what it boils down to:

Would you rather me hit you in the head with a 4lb crowbar or a 3.6lb 4D cell maglite?

Velocity has to be figured in, and it's not an issue of a heavier bullet hitting harder or the invalid bigger hole theory when the velocities are different... Granted after all things considered the difference will be minute and probably not very applicable...

Tiro Fijo
12-06-2011, 16:05
Have you ever seen what a 45 ACP can do to a person and compair{sic} that to what a 9 MM will do? I have, and I don't pretend to act with such arrogance.


BS. Not even a coroner or M.E. can tell the difference until they actually dig the bullet out and measure it. :upeyes:

Trigger Finger
12-06-2011, 16:17
BS. Not even a coroner or M.E. can tell the difference until they actually dig the bullet out and measure it. :upeyes:

And what do you base that on? I have been to autopsies where an experienced M.E. can estimate what caliber is involved by the entrance wound!

But I was referring to how a person reacts after being shot by the two calibers I mentioned.

Tiro Fijo
12-06-2011, 16:50
And what do you base that on? I have been to autopsies where an experienced M.E. can estimate what caliber is involved by the entrance wound!

But I was referring to how a person reacts after being shot by the two calibers I mentioned.


Double BS. You're talking out your hat & I'd quit while I was ahead. :upeyes:

toshbar
12-06-2011, 16:55
But I was referring to how a person reacts after being shot by the two calibers I mentioned.
You mean being dead or being dead? :rofl:

glock20c10mm
12-06-2011, 18:21
After such a long dissertation and you don't even own a 40, 45 or 9mm!!!

I have no idea how someone with so little experience could come up with such a supposition. Have you ever seen what a 45 ACP can do to a person and compair that to what a 9 MM will do? I have, and I don't pretend to act with such arrogance.
On the contrary my friend, you do not ONLY have the experience of yourself, but also that of many many many many others, as do I.

You wouldn't suggest what you know in any field is limited to your own personal experience, would you?

To make such a statement(s) would also suggest you "know" me and who I know that may know learned and meaningful information on this thread's subject, possibly beyond your own knowledge (I don't know, just saying). But you don't "know" me and I don't "know" you.

That said, in my "long dissertation" (as you put it), what fault did you find in what I listed as fact? Or was it just my opinion at the end that got you to post what you did?

About your experience...Will you share what 9mm didn't do in what you saw compared to what the 45 did do? Also, what 9mm load(s) are you comparing in your experience to what 45 load(s)? You seem to have a pretty strong belief in what you said you learned from what you saw, and therefore it would be great if the rest of us could learn of the clear difference between 9 and 45 that you mentioned. Maybe for the OP's sake you could bring 40 into the equation too unless you have no opinion on 40S&W.

At this point your claimed experience reminds me of what I hear from 9 out of 10 military folk around here who have been in and out of harms way. That is, if you listen to those 9 out of 10, the 9mm FMJ and 5.56 FMJ are absolute instant DEATH rays. I personally have no interest in killing anyone. Just stopping them as quickly as possible from whatever they were doing that required the use of "deadly force".

Terminal performance is not necessarily about what guns in what calibers anyone owns in relation to what they may know from there own personal experience. It would be what, if anything, they learned with them if they ever used them outside of paper/cardboard target killing.

Also just because I never owned a 9mm platform doesn't mean I didn't have access to a G19 over the course of years, which I did, and did use for "backyard testing" in comparison to the G20C I used to have and the G29 I currently have. And that's not to mention a 44 magnum I owned for some time, during the time of which I tested a plethora of different loads.

Again, you don't know me. You don't know my reasoning for carrying 10mm along with how and why I came to the conclusion itself for myself. There are practically an infinite amount of reasons we all choose to carry what we do, with even more pros and cons behind those reasons, sometimes even still depending on who you talk to.

Some people are all about the quickest most accurate follow up shots possible in a load that still meets all or most FBI protocol. Some people choose greater destructive power, round for round, over ultra quick follow up shots. Some people choose the round after what they choose as their favorite platform first (pretty common thing with the 1911/45 combo). Some people want the largest caliber possible in a platform they're still willing to carry (commonly keeps the DesertEagle/50AE combo out of the running among other things). Some people simply settle for what they can afford to practice with, sometimes to the extent they won't even buy "premium ammo" for carry. And lets not forget that handful of folks who believe FMJ in whatever they carry is the way to go.

If your personal opinions vary from my personal opinions, it's fine with me. At the same time facts are facts, and as such won't change. Lastly are those things we could call "variable"...like that we can only hope a JHP will expand...that we hope our shot placement ends up being "good enough"...that if shot placement should have been "good enough" that it actually does turn out to be "good enough"...on and on and on. True, some people do base decisions on misinformation and such, but that's another discussion all together. That is, unless you can point out something I said that just plain isn't true?

Not looking to argue or make enemies, just pointing it out as I and many others have experienced collectively, along with my own personal opinion for myself from those collective facts/observations/pros-cons. Obviously there's much more I could add, but then I have to end this post sometime.

:cheers:

glock20c10mm
12-06-2011, 18:43
And what do you base that on? I have been to autopsies where an experienced M.E. can estimate what caliber is involved by the entrance wound!
Estimate? Ummm, you mean as in they could guess if it was nearer the 22 cal end of the spectrum as opposed the the 50 cal end of the spectrum? And with different nose profiles even within the same caliber and what-not? Call it a hunch, but I was of the impression that skin and the stuff immediately attached to it are elastic, which is what a bullet puts an "entrance wound" through. And even if you use a wadcutter style bullet to punch a clean hole going in, I'm not sure even then the hole in living tissue would stay exactly that way for very long (maybe less than a second or two?, little more in fat and or older people and a little less in those who are younger and thinner). I'm calling BS too. Hope I don't have to be a doctor to say that now. You know, we've had quite a few people over the years who claim to have seen plenty of GSWs working in ERs and what not, and so far every single one said they can't tell either. I suppose they all lied or weren't experienced enough to tell.

Trigger Finger
12-06-2011, 18:44
I was merely attempting to ask your experience, since I can't find any mention of it. I don't care about anyone else, only what you said and it sounded like you consider yourself some kind of expert!

What I was referring to was my two shootings.

The first was in the 1992 L.A. Riots, I used a Beretta Model 92, 9MM 124 grain Winchester +P ammo. I knocked the person down, he got up and ran away.

The second was in 2001, I used a S&W 4506 45ACP caliber, with Federal 230 grain Hydra-shok ammo and the suspect went down immediately and stayed down forever!
I realize that shot placement had much to do with the results but, to me, it is an indicator of overall results. I also realize that based on my results in life or death situations it has biased me toward the 45.

And those who say BS to seeing the entry wound and determining a rough estimate of what caliber entered I ask how many autopsies have you been to? As a detective for LAPD for over 30 years I have been to many. And I did say rough estimate, like a 9mm or an 11mm, a 22 or a 38 caliber, obviously not if it was a FMJ or HP or SWC.

K.Kiser
12-06-2011, 19:02
Size kills, but so does velocity and these two calibers are a wash... Shoot a 200 lbs. animal with a .44 magnum that leaves a relatively big entrance wound with frontal area and weight... Shoot the next deer with a skinny and light .240 Weatherby that leaves a pencil hole, procede to skin both deer side by side and take note of the difference... Those that keep claiming that a .45 is so much more effective due to weight and size as opposed to a smaller faster buller are simply misinformed and lack hands on - eyes on experience to what different bullets and their variables actually do to flesh.. Sometimes people just can't get past the visual comparison of the two cartridges and the bore that they have, but it' just plain and simply doesn't tell a complete story...

Heck, just for grins go to youtube and watch slow motion gelatin blocks get shot with the two... Given comparable bullet styles there is very little difference in effect... I don't believe a gelatin block to be the final say, but just for reference if your bored...

I've seen 125 lbs. deer run for nearly 10 seconds after a hit from 3,000+lbs. of energy cartridge, and seen much bigger animal falls dead on the spot from a 1,000 lbs/ft of energy and the other way around and everything in between... Results will vary from day to day, from one living thing to another and it's not a deciding factor of the cartridges effect...

collim1
12-06-2011, 19:02
I was merely attempting to ask your experience, since I can't find any mention of it. I don't care about anyone else, only what you said and it sounded like you consider yourself some kind of expert!

What I was referring to was my two shootings.

The first was in the 1992 L.A. Riots, I used a Beretta Model 92, 9MM 124 grain Winchester +P ammo. I knocked the person down, he got up and ran away.

The second was in 2001, I used a S&W 4506 45ACP caliber, with Federal 230 grain Hydra-shok ammo and the suspect went down immediately and stayed down forever!
I realize that shot placement had much to do with the results but, to me, it is an indicator of overall results. I also realize that based on my results in life or death situations it has biased me toward the 45.

And those who say BS to seeing the entry wound and determining a rough estimate of what caliber entered I ask how many autopsies have you been to? As a detective for LAPD for over 30 years I have been to many. And I did say rough estimate, like a 9mm or an 11mm, a 22 or a 38 caliber, obviously not if it was a FMJ or HP or SWC.

Hey, you lived. If you ever make it to the Southeast I'll buy you dinner.

glock20c10mm
12-06-2011, 19:05
I was merely attempting to ask your experience, since I can't find any mention of it. I don't care about anyone else, only what you said and it sounded like you consider yourself some kind of expert!

What I was referring to was my two shootings.

The first was in the 1992 L.A. Riots, I used a Beretta Model 92, 9MM 124 grain Winchester +P ammo. I knocked the person down, he got up and ran away.

The second was in 2001, I used a S&W 4506 45ACP caliber, with Federal 230 grain Hydra-shok ammo and the suspect went down immediately and stayed down forever!
I realize that shot placement had much to do with the results but, to me, it is an indicator of overall results. I also realize that based on my results in life or death situations it has biased me toward the 45.

And those who say BS to seeing the entry wound and determining a rough estimate of what caliber entered I ask how many autopsies have you been to? As a detective for LAPD for over 30 years I have been to many.
Fair enough. I disagree with how you're basing your decision on what to carry for various reasons, but that's my opinion and really none of my business when it comes right down too it. Though with such a weak argument between the two shootings alone you've experienced, I'm a tad surprised you questioned me at all.

As for guessing what anyone was shot with, it really doesn't matter. It only matters if the outcome was positive against evil or not. Glad you had a positive result with 45, and sorry the 9 let you down.

About my personal decision on 10mm for myself as my chosen SD carry round I will say this; If you're taking away from what I said thinking I believe the 10mm to be an end all be all to all situations requiring the use of deadly force, that would not be the case by any stretch. And I don't know if you are taking that away from what I said, just wanted to clear that up just in case. Other than that, you sure started out in a strange way if the main thing you were looking to know was what my background was.

BTW, thanks for the compliment on me sounding like an expert! I think I have a ways to go yet, but will take the compliments when I can get them.:)

Trigger Finger
12-06-2011, 20:40
Hey, you lived. If you ever make it to the Southeast I'll buy you dinner.

I worked O.S.B CRASH for a time and would look forward to having dinner with you. Maybe at Mr Jim's. But I am living in Northern California now.
Stay safe. :supergrin:

Tiro Fijo
12-06-2011, 22:12
And what do you base that on? I have been to autopsies where an experienced M.E. can estimate what caliber is involved by the entrance wound!...

What you ORIGINALLY said.


...And I did say rough estimate, like a 9mm or an 11mm, a 22 or a 38 caliber, obviously not if it was a FMJ or HP or SWC.

Now you're altering your testimony. Mark Fuhrman, is that you? :upeyes::wavey:

Trigger Finger
12-06-2011, 22:38
It was never my intention to deceive. But if the gloves fit you must acquit! :supergrin:
But I don't like being thrown into the same group as Fuhrman or Perez. Even in jest!

fredj338
12-06-2011, 23:12
I've seen 125 lbs. deer run for nearly 10 seconds after a hit from 3,000+lbs. of energy cartridge, and seen much bigger animal falls dead on the spot from a 1,000 lbs/ft of energy and the other way around and everything in between... Results will vary from day to day, from one living thing to another and it's not a deciding factor of the cartridges effect...

Energy doesn't kill, neither does vel. It's all about tissue destruction within conventional hand held or shoulder fired weapons. Your 240Wby is a good example. Same load, same energy, but sub a RNFMJ. Not much is going to happen unless you hit bone. Sim things happen w/ RNFMJ in pistol calibers. So it's always going to depend on bullet construction & how the bullet transfers it's energy to destroy flesh. I would rather have a good 9mm JHP vs a RNFMJ 45acp, & I love me some 45acp, but I do understand terminal performance. Most that have never killed anything bigger than a mouse do not. SO gello blocks aside, I'm sticking to the 45acp & any decent JHP fo rmy SD needs. Like hunting big & nasty animals, always shoot the biggest gun you can hit with reliably & you'll rarely be wrong.

McGAP
12-07-2011, 00:50
Location, location, location ........ :yawn:

fredj338
12-07-2011, 09:28
Location, location, location ........ :yawn:
While that is true, it will not be possible under all conditions to get perfect shot placement. That is when a larger bullet that offers some expansion is better than a smaller bullet that does not. The bigger hole lets more good stuff leak out & the fight will end sooner. Just another reason we do not all just use a 22lr for everything from mice to moose & the occasional dangerous felon.:yawn:

Quarter Tank
12-07-2011, 09:42
I like 180 gr .40 better than the .45 +p. size is very comparable to the two but with .40 I can carry almost double what I could with a .45

fastbolt
12-07-2011, 11:00
In most cases, the guns chambered in .40 S&W seem to run along the same size as a 9mm, while those chambered in .45 ACP generally require a larger grip frame. This can be helpful, or at least desirable, to some owners & users.

Magazine capacity can often be a bit better with the .40's than similarly reduced size .45's.

The slightly smaller diameter .40's sometimes seem to be exhibit smoother & faster cycling, and usually seem to be more tolerant of shooter-induced issues.

I also remember a time when an instructor in armorer class, who was also a long time working cop for an agency back East, related how his agency had observed that .40's seemed to exhibit more consistent expansion when used against suspects clothed in heavy winter clothing than when .45's had been used. I thought that was interesting, but it was just something briefly discussed when someone brought up service caliber, and I don't recall him getting around to mentioning any specific brand/hollowpoint designs. Just that they felt their switch to .40 from .45 was beneficial.

If a lot of training/practice shooting is going to be involved, the cost of the .40 loads usually seem to run a bit less than .45 +P.

Having fired various .40's in diminutive pistols and .45 +P's in small pistols, I generally find the .40's in 180gr & 165gr seem to offer me a better balance of controllability & recoil management.

This is a subject each owner/user probably ought to determine for themselves ...

DocKWL
12-07-2011, 14:43
Platform excluded, the .40 will offer, on average, better hard barrier performance.

toshbar
12-07-2011, 14:48
Why are you comparing .40 to .45+p? Why not compare .45 to 10mm auto, which is .40+p?

K.Kiser
12-07-2011, 15:49
Energy doesn't kill, neither does vel.


Ummmm, OK... Shove a 1" diameter stake through a section of tissue, and record the resluts... Shoot the same tissue with a 3,000 fps bullet that is 1/4" diameter, record the results... What was the difference...?

glock20c10mm
12-07-2011, 16:24
Why are you comparing .40 to .45+p? Why not compare .45 to 10mm auto, which is .40+p?
As much as I like your way of thinking, that's not really fair.

Once you bring full power 10mm Auto into it you would have to jump to 45 Super for a more similar comparison with just caliber size being the main difference.

And the way I see it, even when 45 Auto +P enters the lineup, 40S&W still has enough benefits to outweigh it. Just my opinion. Like I said earlier, I would choose 9mm +P/+P+ before either of them anyway.

You know, DocKWL brought up a GREAT point to add to the list of cons for 45 Auto. When it comes to hard barriers the 45 Auto, +P or not, is bottom of the proverbial totem pole. Don't think anyone here would argue that in an overall sense of all available loads for all available semi-auto SD cartridges.

Still, no question in general with the 45 Auto being a relatively competent SD round. Definitely showing it's age though!

fredj338
12-07-2011, 16:24
Ummmm, OK... Shove a 1" diameter stake through a section of tissue, and record the resluts... Shoot the same tissue with a 3,000 fps bullet that is 1/4" diameter, record the results... What was the difference...?

You need to shoot more living things. Wby tried to sell the vel kills thing 50yrs ago. Without a proper bullet, vel just lets the bullet exit sooner than later.:dunno: Even backyard testing shows this. Shoot a couple water jugs w/ 9mm-115grRNFMJ @ 1300fps then a 230gr-45acpJHP @ 850fps, get back to me.

K.Kiser
12-07-2011, 17:27
How bout I shoot one with each handgun and a .44 mag or even a .500 smith and wesson, then shoot a 4th jug with a .257 hot tamale then get back to you after the atomized mist finally settles from the rifle hit... The .257 is gonna expand really quickly to, and I'd love to ask if you wanna compare penetration too... Speed delivers energy in a lessened duration of time, which creates hemorrhaged tissue, and hemorrhaged tissue doesn't function inlcuding the nerves withing that tissue...

K.Kiser
12-07-2011, 17:32
I'd like to get back to the posters original question... Sorry for the thread hijack...

fredj338
12-07-2011, 23:35
How bout I shoot one with each handgun and a .44 mag or even a .500 smith and wesson, then shoot a 4th jug with a .257 hot tamale then get back to you after the atomized mist finally settles from the rifle hit... The .257 is gonna expand really quickly to, and I'd love to ask if you wanna compare penetration too... Speed delivers energy in a lessened duration of time, which creates hemorrhaged tissue, and hemorrhaged tissue doesn't function inlcuding the nerves withing that tissue...

Again, you miss the point. Vel w/o a suitable bullet means little. Your 257wby w/ a solid RN isn't transfering much energy & little tissue dirruption, especially in larger targets. You did seem to miss that point twice now. Speed alone, especially in handgun bullets, offers very little w/o a bullet that will do work & crush tissue.

Glockwork Orange
12-08-2011, 00:52
what the main advantage of the 45 over the 40 would be




.40 fits in a 9mm size frame, whereas a .45 don't...important for those with hand size to grip issues...other than that, there's no reason for a .40 to exist!

NEOH212
12-08-2011, 02:32
I think it makes a bigger hole and thus is not as dependent on expansion! The 45ACP+P is a step more powerful then the 45ACP and I prefere this. It generates more power then the 45ACP and much more power and knockdown ability then the 40.

It fires a bigger, heavier and faster slug and I prefer it. For CCW, however, I prefer the 40 Cal. The 40 comes in a smaller pistol and is nearly as powerful as the 45ACP but way behind the 45ACP+P IMHO.

As per your title of the thread, I am not referring to a 10MM.

+1 :thumbsup:

cadillacguns
12-08-2011, 03:31
Well to answer your question, a .45 won't fit into any of the Glocks I carry.

K.Kiser
12-08-2011, 16:25
Fredj I understand plenty, been in My Dad's long range rifle room all my life and shooting everything from a .22lr to .375 Cheytacs, 408, 416 remingtons and most everything else that strikes a primer and go bang... I also understand a futile discussion.. Have a nice day...

fredj338
12-08-2011, 17:20
Fredj I understand plenty, been in My Dad's long range rifle room all my life and shooting everything from a .22lr to .375 Cheytacs, 408, 416 remingtons and most everything else that strikes a primer and go bang... I also understand a futile discussion.. Have a nice day...

Then you should have learned, velocity alone won't kill. Totally dependent on the bullet unless you are talking about something like a 50BMG, then a high vel solid does matter.:dunno: We agree to disagree.:wavey:

Javelin
12-08-2011, 17:30
With current production ammo there is no real benefit to a .45 .... the .40 gives you a slight edge to an extra bullet or two in capacity. I choose the .40 over the .45 for my personal protection because of it.

K.Kiser
12-08-2011, 18:12
I don't reckon I ever stated where velocity alone kills... This is the same old discussion that has been going on for ages on many different fronts... Horsepower vs. torque -- punching power vs. hand speed -- etc... I've spent some time in the gym getting smacked and a big fat guy with alot of weight don't put a guy to sleep like a guy with a punchers snap... A featherweight with all speed and no power doesn't do alot of damage either, but a guy with some of both has the better advantage... A welterweight boxer has a jab that creates around 70+ lbs of energy if I remember right... Let someone push on your abdominals with 70 lbs of pressure and it's uncomfortable but not real bad, then have a welterweight deliver that same amount of pressure via a fast punch...

All things being equal, speed hurts... Nothing alone does anything and that's obvious to anyone with blood flow to the brain, there has to be a blend on some level... I'm speaking of real world scenarios where expanding bullets are used... If two bullets of different diameters deliver comparable ft/lbs. of energy and penetrate a comparable amount them the damage will also be comparable because the energy dump will comparably mimic each other which is what we have with the two pistol cartridges in question... The .45 will have a slight ft/lbs advantage, while the 9mm will have a slight speed advantage which will create a higher ratio of hydrostatic damage per .000" of diameter ...

We have shot deer/hogs with everything from a .220 swift to a 416 remington magnum, and the most damage wasn't done with the biggest bullet that left the "ol' big hole", the most damage was done with the bullet that had a whop of energy via. velocity with enough bullet mass and sectional density to back it up... It was a 7mm wildcat and the damage was enormous in regard to an extreme volume of bloodshot flesh that the bigger but slower cartridges fell short of... The bullet was small and didn't deliver all ft/lbs of energy due to the fact that the bullet was probably still going like a hurrican upon exiting, but the shock created by an instant deliver of pressure is a killer..

My earlier post a couple day ago about a 1" stake being driven in compared to a firearm bullet was meant to address the idea of expansion with none of these pistol bullet being able to expand to an inch under normal conditions... The faster an object flies, the less diameter it needs to reach an intended result...

NG VI
12-08-2011, 19:20
Less barrel wear, bigger hole, better recoil control, more weapons chambered for 45 auto than 40 S&W, more .45 auto manufacturers' availability and variety.


Really? Less barrel wear? How many pistol barrels have you ever worn out? What level of accuracy would make a combat pistol barrel worn out?

If you consider every different 1911 manufacturer as a separate weapon platform, *maybe* there are more .45s than .40s on the market. Let's use Glock as an example, seems appropriate for the site. They offer a full range of pistols in every modern service caliber, and they have three .45 ACP pistols. They offer five .40 pistols.

glock2740
12-08-2011, 19:52
Compared to the 45 ACP+P, the only advantage I see for the 40 S&W is higher magazine capacity.
I agree. I'm a fan of the .40 S&W as well as the .45ACP+P.

fredj338
12-08-2011, 23:35
I don't reckon I ever stated where velocity alone kills... This is the same old discussion that has been going on for ages on many different fronts

All things being equal, speed hurts... Nothing alone does anything and that's obvious to anyone with blood flow to the brain, there has to be a blend on some level... I'm speaking of real world scenarios where expanding bullets are used... If two bullets of different diameters deliver comparable ft/lbs. of energy and penetrate a comparable amount them the damage will also be comparable because the energy dump will comparably mimic each other which is what we have with the two pistol cartridges in question... The .45 will have a slight ft/lbs advantage, while the 9mm will have a slight speed advantage which will create a higher ratio of hydrostatic damage per .000" of diameter ...

The faster an object flies, the less diameter it needs to reach an intended result...

Size kills, but so does velocity and these two calibers are a wash...

Just keeping it real.:wavey: You are right, it's been argued for decades. Again, Roy Wby thought the same thing, many others too, just doesn't work that way in real life. Reality, as you noted, the bullet is the key, not the vel, so you have to clarify that, not assume anything when stating "velocity kills:.. Without proper bullets, the vel & any energy implied is almost insignificant, depending on the size of the target.