Why if you OC, have a good retention system, open carrier shot with own gun [Archive] - Glock Talk

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Deaf Smith
12-06-2011, 18:21
http://www2.timesdispatch.com/news/news/2011/dec/03/1/teen-homicide-suspects-had-felony-convictions-ar-1510369/

Tyler, a customer at the BP station, was killed about 8:15 p.m. Friday, Nov. 25, inside the store. According to court papers, Smith and Hamiel arrived at the BP together on a single scooter and followed Tyler into the store.

Tyler, 48, had a concealed-carry permit, but his handgun was plainly visible that night in his holster, Johnson said.

"The suspects walk in and one immediately reached for Mr. Tyler's gun," Johnson said. Tyler did not draw his weapon.

According to court papers, Smith took Tyler's gun during a struggle and shot Tyler in the chest after the victim chased Smith inside the store. Authorities said they could not confirm that Tyler was killed with his own gun until they get the results of forensics testing. They also are awaiting test results to show whether the gun used to kill Tyler was the one used to shoot Cosby.

Yes to murders and it looks like the CCW carrier's gun was used in both, including the murder of the CCW carrier!

And that is the problem with OC. Cops use a duty belt and retention system that is strong enough to stop the snatch of even a drug crazed nutjob.

Think about it.

Deaf

Moderator Note: If you want to start a rude and insulting testosterone spewing contest about open carry, go somewhere else. Do it here and you'll not like the results.

If you want to discuss this event in a reasonable manner, you're welcome to stay.

IndyGunFreak
12-06-2011, 18:29
Well, situational awareness is also important.

It sounds to me, like there was *at least* 2 weapons in the store, since they need to do ballistic testing to see if he was killed with his own firearm. They're also not sure if his gun was used to kill the other victim.

We may well have a case of "Concealed carry could have prevented this".

Very sad situation though, thoughts and prayers to the families of the victims.

Gunnut 45/454
12-06-2011, 18:41
Deaf Smith
Gee even cops with all there retension holsters get them taken away! When I OC I'm awear of everyone around me-Sounds like those two followed him and then pounced on him. Bad SA on his part. When there's no way to keep enough distance between me and others my hand is on the butt of my pistol. There is no way to snatch my pistol without getting an immediate punch to the face followed by many more! And it will most likely end with a bullet or two being added to the perps pain! CCW does pervent this! I hope both of those perps get the death sentence!:steamed:

gunowner1
12-06-2011, 19:33
Always better to keep the firearm concealed while in a public place.

xmanhockey7
12-06-2011, 19:49
There are upsides and downsides to OC and CC. Also just like a citizen who OC or CC police can have their guns taken away.

Patchman
12-06-2011, 20:00
To me, how a person chooses to carry (OC or CC) is the same as what a person chooses to carry (enough gun; enough ammo, etc...). Their choices don't affect me, so I really don't care. And if their choices don't work out, oh well... Lesson learned.

Incumbent upon the individual to learn about the strengths and weaknesses of all options, then make informed choices.

And even informed choices could later turn out to be very bad choices. Life sucks that way. Sorry.

Deaf Smith
12-06-2011, 20:13
Their choices don't affect me, so I really don't care. And if their choices don't work out, oh well... .

Choice does kind of affect you. Notice the 16 year old went off and tried to rob someone else and killed them with the CCW's gun. That could have been you or a loved one.

That is what the ballistics test is about. The other victim was in a car blocks off and robbed/shot dead.

The same 16 yr old is supposed to have done both.

And as for retention, yea cops now and then have someone TRY to snatch them. Mostly the thug fails.

Deaf

jp3975
12-06-2011, 20:18
You cant be "aware" and prevent this. For those that are hardcore about oc and carry to coffee shops and everywhere else...You're going to be "aware" of people in line behind you? If I want your gun and we're in Walmart...you're loosing it.

This is why oc is a bad thing. It makes other gun owners look bad when someone gets shot with their own gun. Just more fodder for the antis.

And really...when in town what does it accomplish? Looking cool? It should be concealed only imo. And not just because somebody will snatch your gun and kill you with it...but you'll definitely be shot in a robbery/ mass shooting if they see it before they start.

With CC its a surprise.

jp3975
12-06-2011, 20:20
There are upsides and downsides to OC and CC. Also just like a citizen who OC or CC police can have their guns taken away.

But everyone knows police have guns. So they may as well oc. You have a great advantage if no one knows you have a gun.

cowboy1964
12-06-2011, 20:24
When I OC I'm awear of everyone around me-Sounds like those two followed him and then pounced on him. Bad SA on his part. When there's no way to keep enough distance between me and others my hand is on the butt of my pistol.

Would love to see the reactions you must get standing in line at the checkout at Wally World with your hand on your gun.

xmanhockey7
12-06-2011, 20:26
And not just because somebody will snatch your gun and kill you with it...but you'll definitely be shot in a robbery/ mass shooting if they see it before they start.

Cite please??? Oh wait I have one!
http://www.examiner.com/gun-rights-in-atlanta/open-carry-deters-armed-robbery-kennesaw

RussP
12-06-2011, 21:04
For those not familiar with Richmond, this occurred about 4 blocks from the Richmond PD 2nd Precinct.

That neighborhood has been a rough one since the mid to late 60s. It is certainly not a place I'm comfortable being after dark now.

There is a followup story here: http://www2.timesdispatch.com/news/2011/dec/01/tdmain01-second-teen-arrested-in-s-richmond-slayin-ar-1505438/

In the story the victim's wife said he got a gun this year for protection because of an incident years ago that she said had made him feel defenseless.

What was he doing at that location, some will ask. Well, he lived in apartments 650 yards from the station. Might say that was the neighborhood convenience store.

This is an example, sadly, of why I stick to my personal rules for open carry. I open carry only when and where appropriate. In this case, the "when" is the more important criteria. I do not open carry from about 30 minutes before sunset and not until 30 minutes after sunrise. That is just where my comfort level is.

As far as situational awareness, it appears Tyler was followed into the store and immediately attacked. Just illustrates situational awareness is a full time job.

jp3975
12-06-2011, 22:25
Cite please??? Oh wait I have one!
http://www.examiner.com/gun-rights-in-atlanta/open-carry-deters-armed-robbery-kennesaw

Kinda hard to disarm two people open carrying...and of course the robbers have to be willing to kill. If they are, you're dead.

In any case, of course it will deter some folks. But any idiot can walk behind you in a public setting like a store or restaurant and take it.

jack76590
12-06-2011, 23:55
Finally happened man open carrying has gun grabbed and is shot with own gun.

http://www2.timesdispatch.com/news/news/2011/dec/03/1/teen-homicide-suspects-had-felony-convictions-ar-1510369/


Moderator Note: I merged jack76590's thread with a previously posted thread to keep the discussions together.

kensteele
12-07-2011, 00:10
So the victim was chasing after the suspect when his gun was taken?

Schrag4
12-07-2011, 00:15
So the victim was chasing after the suspect when his gun was taken?

I read it to mean that the victim had his gun stolen then chased after the thief. Dunno. It wasn't very clearly written.

FM12
12-07-2011, 00:19
Apparently OC didnt prevent this!

brausso
12-07-2011, 00:21
For **** sake what is wrong with people?

Lock that little **** up and throw away the keys

TDC20
12-07-2011, 00:43
This is why I prefer concealed carry over open carry. Had the victim been carrying concealed, two people would be alive today, including himself. The savages would have passed him over and he would have never even known how close he was to danger.

Why is it that juvenile records are sealed? Maybe for shoplifting or something minor like that, but anyone sociopathic enough to be committing violent felonies at age 13...why hide something like that? I think the public has a right to know and identify criminally dangerous people, regardless of age, especially if the courts are not going to lock them up..

Anyway, the courts have dropped the ball on this one and now two people are dead. -1 for open carry.

Atomic Punk
12-07-2011, 00:59
CC would have prevented this? :tongueout:

or a good retention holster?

Foxtrotx1
12-07-2011, 01:48
Open Carry: Tactical Failure.

HerrGlock
12-07-2011, 02:31
I'm all set up to be amused. I feel badly for the guy but now, after a few million people open carried for a few hundred man-years those that feel somehow morally superior to those who open carry finally, FINALLY have ONE instance where someone was killed with his own gun.

It's going to be interesting to see how many believe this vindicates their position.

JuneyBooney
12-07-2011, 02:46
I read it to mean that the victim had his gun stolen then chased after the thief. Dunno. It wasn't very clearly written.

That is what was written and I guess it shows the need for a back up weapon to be used to get your gun back if it is stolen. Poor guy should have been carrying "concealed" in that part of town.

FireForged
12-07-2011, 11:01
It sounds to me, like there was *at least* 2 weapons in the store, since they need to do ballistic testing to see if he was killed with his own firearm. They're also not sure if his gun was used to kill the other victim.

not really, it could mean that initial indications are that it was his own gun but they are professional enough not to assume that is the case until they have evidence to support or negate that belief.

FireForged
12-07-2011, 11:12
A person in a public place is not always going to be able to control the environment around them or the proximity of others. I mean, you cant go through a store and demand a 10 foot "reactionary gap". There are "issues" that exist when OCing that do not when CCing. The dynamic lends to a interesting debate.

JoeCitizen
12-07-2011, 15:54
Open carry is like handing it out on a silver platter.

Situational awareness? Yeah, right. You got eyes in the back of your head? You got 360 degree vision? You EVER talk to ANYBODY while carrying? A human being will NEVER have total awareness at ALL times. OC = Silver Platter.

Warp
12-07-2011, 16:53
You cant be "aware" and prevent this. For those that are hardcore about oc and carry to coffee shops and everywhere else...You're going to be "aware" of people in line behind you? If I want your gun and we're in Walmart...you're loosing it.

If you want my gun and we're in Walmart, I'm killing you.

See, I can play internet bad ass too.

I'm all set up to be amused. I feel badly for the guy but now, after a few million people open carried for a few hundred man-years those that feel somehow morally superior to those who open carry finally, FINALLY have ONE instance where someone was killed with his own gun.

It's going to be interesting to see how many believe this vindicates their position.

This sums up my position and opinion perfectly.

Like I've always said in threads like this, I am sure it is only a matter of time. There are just far too many people openly carrying around this country for it to never happen.

Warp
12-07-2011, 17:01
Also, I will be interested in the test results, RE: Was he really shot with his own gun or with a different gun.

Deaf Smith
12-07-2011, 18:01
Also, I will be interested in the test results, RE: Was he really shot with his own gun or with a different gun.

Warp,

The test they are doing is not to show he was shot with his own gun (they have witnesses and video already) but to see if the OTHER victim, the one that was in the car, was shot with the same gun.

Deaf

xmanhockey7
12-07-2011, 18:45
For how many people OC and hours spent OCing this is the first incident of an OCer being shot with his own gun. We do have many more cases where an OCer deters a criminal. If you don't like OC then don't do it, but don't tell others they shouldn't.

Dukeboy01
12-07-2011, 19:36
FWIW, while I generally don't approve of OC, the victim's larger mistake in this case was chasing after a suspect he knew to be armed while unarmed himself. His failure to excercise situational awareness and his failure to retain his weapon are secondary to the certainly adrenaline charged, yet still extremely boneheaded, decision to continue to engage the subject after he had lost the struggle for the gun. That's the real tactical failure in this situation.

Warp
12-07-2011, 19:37
FWIW, while I generally don't approve of OC, the victim's larger mistake in this case was chasing after a suspect he knew to be armed while unarmed himself. That's the real tactical failure in this situation.

Yes.

Even if he WAS armed, say with a backup, you STILL don't chase after the guy in this situation.

I wonder what holster he was using...

RussP
12-07-2011, 20:28
For how many people OC and hours spent OCing this is the first incident of an OCer being shot with his own gun. We do have many more cases where an OCer deters a criminal. If you don't like OC then don't do it, but don't tell others they shouldn't.Question for you...Would you have been open carrying in the same situation under the same circumstances?

ATW525
12-07-2011, 21:02
For how many people OC and hours spent OCing this is the first incident of an OCer being shot with his own gun. We do have many more cases where an OCer deters a criminal. If you don't like OC then don't do it, but don't tell others they shouldn't.

How many people actually do open carry? It's legal here and not counting police and people in gun shops or at shooting ranges, I've personally witnessed it done by other people a grand total of two times.

xmanhockey7
12-07-2011, 21:12
Look at opencarry.org. There are a lot of people on there who have logged a lot of time OCing. And not everyone that OCs is on that website.

I would have been OCing because well I always OC. Whenever possible I will carry a BUG incase of a gun grab. Can you cite any more situations of a gun grab and the person being shot? People who have been involved in OC for YEARS can't. We can find a lot more cases of OC preventing crime. Although like others have said, he probably shouldn't have gone running after the guy who took his gun. I would like to point out I have read many news articles where they tell what happen/state facts that I know are not true. There may be more to the story than we realize.

Glockworks
12-07-2011, 21:19
But everyone knows police have guns. So they may as well oc. You have a great advantage if no one knows you have a gun.
EXACTLY! For this reason I never buy/wear clothing that brings attention to myself as to someone who may be carrying. For example a fanny pack, or some tactical gear, unless I'm hiking in the woods maybe.

Deaf Smith
12-07-2011, 21:19
For how many people OC and hours spent OCing this is the first incident of an OCer being shot with his own gun. We do have many more cases where an OCer deters a criminal. If you don't like OC then don't do it, but don't tell others they shouldn't.

No one is telling you what to do xman, they are pointing out the dangers. Open your eyes and see that.

It's up to you to see them and find ways to combat the potential dangers if you decide to OC your weapon.

Deaf

guitarded_1
12-07-2011, 21:21
I'm not anti-OC, but there plenty of guys who OC, have no weapons retention training, have no fight training/experience, may even be out of shape, but yet somehow think that an openly carried weapon creates some sort of force field. I live in GA, and I see fat boys all the time that are just ripe for a gun snatch - and probably wouldn't last 30 seconds in a fight to keep their weapon. If I did open carry, I would use my Safariland ALS holster - amazing holster with amazing retention. I'm a CC guy, though.

JoeCitizen
12-07-2011, 21:28
Retention of the weapon is the responsibility of the person carrying the weapon. The smartest thing you can do toward weapon retention is to not let the criminal element at large know you have the weapon in the first place. For all those who day dream daily about one day OCing, have you had any training in weapons retention oriented toward the moment the bad guy grabs the exposed gun on your hip? Didn't think so.

SouthernBoyVA
12-07-2011, 21:48
While none of us will know exactly what happened and how it happened because we were not present during this incident, if the story is at least partially true we can arrive at a few assumptions and therefore, comments. But still, we are armchair quarterbacking and at best, second guessing after the fact.

Situational awareness
Several have mentioned this in several ways. It is true that one cannot operate at 100% SA all of the time or even a small part of the time for that matter. But if you happened to see these two arrive at that business how might you have acted? I would not have gone in ahead of them. I would have looked for another entry, entered after them, or if my profiling antenna was raised, I would have left.

However once in there, I would have as quickly as possible, scanned the place and looked for opportunities of cover and concealment (I do this actually more often than might be expected, not out of paranoia but from habit since I have carried for a number of years). I want to know where people are, which ones are closest to me, and do I perceive any sort of threat.

After the fact reaction
It says that the victim chased the perp inside of the store and it was some point during this that he was shot. If someone manages to obtain my sidearm the last thing I am going to do is chase him. I am going to be looking for a way out assuming I do not have some sort of backup or item with which I can immediately incapacitate him. Chasing is just asking to be shot.

Again, we can play armchair guessing games and imagine what we would do but there is one thing that is dead fast spot on correct. Until it is facing you like RIGHT NOW, you just don't know how you are going to react and what you are going to do.

RussP
12-07-2011, 22:17
Look at opencarry.org. There are a lot of people on there who have logged a lot of time OCing. And not everyone that OCs is on that website.

I would have been OCing because well I always OC. Whenever possible I will carry a BUG incase of a gun grab. Can you cite any more situations of a gun grab and the person being shot? People who have been involved in OC for YEARS can't. We can find a lot more cases of OC preventing crime. Although like others have said, he probably shouldn't have gone running after the guy who took his gun. I would like to point out I have read many news articles where they tell what happen/state facts that I know are not true. There may be more to the story than we realize.Are you the same xmanhockey7 who is on OCDO? Since you mention OCDO, I'm going to believe you are.

Are there areas of the Kalamazoo-Portage Metro area that you avoid because of its crime? With a metro population of just under 327,000, you probably do not have the same amount of crime that the Richmond metro area does with a population of just under 1.3 million. There are areas in Richmond where open carrying at night would guarantee you some attention. Any areas like that where you are?

I'm a Richmond native. Grew up not too far, less than 2 miles, from where this happened. Parents moved us out into the county when the neighborhoods started getting too rough back in 1963. Before moving away from Richmond a couple years ago, I had opportunities to stop at that BP station for gas. If it was mid-morning to mid-afternoon, no problem. Most of the time I would conceal. I do recall open carrying a few times in the middle of the day. If it was anytime near when the nearby high school let out, I'd keep driving. The possibility for unwanted interaction and conflict with locals was just too high for my comfort level. Night time, well, no way would I open carry there. The nights get mean around there.

Now, at the same time, my BP station out where I lived, where I was know by everyone who worked there, I'd open carry most all the time during daylight hours. After dark, my rules for myself are no open carry. Yeah, I've made a couple of exceptions over the years, but only in a few well known locations where anything and anyone out of the ordinary were very, very obvious.

Now, let's get back to you. On OCDO you posted that you are 19 and have a North Dakota Concealed Carry Permit. Since you are only 19, that would be a Class 2 permit, wouldn't it. So, by virtue of your age, you can ONLY open carry there in Michigan.

Again, I ask, are there any areas you avoid because of crime in those areas?

Warp
12-07-2011, 22:54
Retention of the weapon is the responsibility of the person carrying the weapon. The smartest thing you can do toward weapon retention is to not let the criminal element at large know you have the weapon in the first place. For all those who day dream daily about one day OCing, have you had any training in weapons retention oriented toward the moment the bad guy grabs the exposed gun on your hip? Didn't think so.

The funny thing is that a lot of people who carry concealed mistakenly believe that nobody knows it is there. They generally have no weapon retention training and carry in open top holsters with no active retention devices of any king.

xmanhockey7
12-07-2011, 23:40
Are you the same xmanhockey7 who is on OCDO? Since you mention OCDO, I'm going to believe you are.

Are there areas of the Kalamazoo-Portage Metro area that you avoid because of its crime? With a metro population of just under 327,000, you probably do not have the same amount of crime that the Richmond metro area does with a population of just under 1.3 million. There are areas in Richmond where open carrying at night would guarantee you some attention. Any areas like that where you are?

I'm a Richmond native. Grew up not too far, less than 2 miles, from where this happened. Parents moved us out into the county when the neighborhoods started getting too rough back in 1963. Before moving away from Richmond a couple years ago, I had opportunities to stop at that BP station for gas. If it was mid-morning to mid-afternoon, no problem. Most of the time I would conceal. I do recall open carrying a few times in the middle of the day. If it was anytime near when the nearby high school let out, I'd keep driving. The possibility for unwanted interaction and conflict with locals was just too high for my comfort level. Night time, well, no way would I open carry there. The nights get mean around there.

Now, at the same time, my BP station out where I lived, where I was know by everyone who worked there, I'd open carry most all the time during daylight hours. After dark, my rules for myself are no open carry. Yeah, I've made a couple of exceptions over the years, but only in a few well known locations where anything and anyone out of the ordinary were very, very obvious.

Now, let's get back to you. On OCDO you posted that you are 19 and have a North Dakota Concealed Carry Permit. Since you are only 19, that would be a Class 2 permit, wouldn't it. So, by virtue of your age, you can ONLY open carry there in Michigan.

Again, I ask, are there any areas you avoid because of crime in those areas?

What do areas that I go to have to do with anything?

EDIT: What you state is true but I don't see any relevance?????

jp3975
12-08-2011, 03:54
If you want my gun and we're in Walmart, I'm killing you.

See, I can play internet bad ass too.


Im not trying to be a bad ass...I just have common sense. Would it make you feel better if I replace "If I want your gun" with "if someone wants your gun"?

If you ask me, people assuming if they have situational awareness 100% of the time then no one can harm them sound more like internet bad asses.

You wont be killing anyone when they have relieved you of your gun.:tongueout:

The funny thing is that a lot of people who carry concealed mistakenly believe that nobody knows it is there. They generally have no weapon retention training and carry in open top holsters with no active retention devices of any king.

You be surprised how little people pay attention to people they dont know.

Even if you are printing its better then having it right there in the open saying "Hey! Look at me!".

...

Ocing may prevent petty crime, but a single guy ocing does risk drawing attention to himself...risks having it taken, and risks being executed before he can get his gun out should he be there when someone who doesnt mind killing commits a crime.

JoeCitizen
12-08-2011, 08:23
The funny thing is that a lot of people who carry concealed mistakenly believe that nobody knows it is there. They generally have no weapon retention training and carry in open top holsters with no active retention devices of any king.

Yeah, you're right. I forgot about all those people who buy x-ray vision glasses out of the back of comic books.

RussP
12-08-2011, 08:44
Here is the post you made and my question to you.For how many people OC and hours spent OCing this is the first incident of an OCer being shot with his own gun. We do have many more cases where an OCer deters a criminal. If you don't like OC then don't do it, but don't tell others they shouldn't.Question for you...Would you have been open carrying in the same situation under the same circumstances?I asked the question believing you had read my brief description of the area in Post #12. You responded with the part in bold below...

Look at opencarry.org. There are a lot of people on there who have logged a lot of time OCing. And not everyone that OCs is on that website.

I would have been OCing because well I always OC. Whenever possible I will carry a BUG incase of a gun grab. Can you cite any more situations of a gun grab and the person being shot? People who have been involved in OC for YEARS can't. We can find a lot more cases of OC preventing crime. Although like others have said, he probably shouldn't have gone running after the guy who took his gun. I would like to point out I have read many news articles where they tell what happen/state facts that I know are not true. There may be more to the story than we realize.Now, I agree with your observation that there may be unknown details we don't know about, there usually are in a lot of cases. The same curiosity about your comments caused me to wonder about your situation, so I went over to OCDO and did a little reading.Are you the same xmanhockey7 who is on OCDO? Since you mention OCDO, I'm going to believe you are.

Are there areas of the Kalamazoo-Portage Metro area that you avoid because of its crime? With a metro population of just under 327,000, you probably do not have the same amount of crime that the Richmond metro area does with a population of just under 1.3 million. There are areas in Richmond where open carrying at night would guarantee you some attention. Any areas like that where you are?What do areas that I go to have to do with anything?It has to do with the question, "Is it wise or safe to open carry everywhere, all the time?" Since you cannot carry concealed there in Michigan where you live, "Are there any areas you avoid" is a legitimate question.

I'll put it another way. Are there areas where you live, if you had to be there at 8:15 PM, after dark, where if you could conceal, you would conceal because of the criminal element potentially in those areas?

As I said in my earlier post, maybe comparing your metro area to Richmond is not apples to apples. Then, let's go north 50 miles to the Grand Rapids metro area. The 1.3 million population there is more similar to Richmond. Do you get up there much, know the area? I'm certain you might find areas there you should/would avoid.

The question is relevant because in Michigan you can only open carry.Now, let's get back to you. On OCDO you posted that you are 19 and have a North Dakota Concealed Carry Permit. Since you are only 19, that would be a Class 2 permit, wouldn't it. So, by virtue of your age, you can ONLY open carry there in Michigan.EDIT: What you state is true but I don't see any relevance?????Do you see it now?

What kind of bug do you carry. I carry a S&W snubbie in an ankle holster. Where do you carry yours?

SCmasterblaster
12-08-2011, 09:05
I OC IN NH and VT. Anyone is mostly free to walk up behiind me and draw my fully-loaded G17 from its holster and pull the trigger at me. But the G17 won't fire. It has my Otapin in it, holding the slide back 6mm. So while the gun snatcher wonders why it won't fire, he gets sprayed in the face with my OC spray while I get my G17 back. I would then pull the Otapin out, and then take control of the situation.

series1811
12-08-2011, 09:29
I'm not anti-OC, but there plenty of guys who OC, have no weapons retention training, have no fight training/experience, may even be out of shape, but yet somehow think that an openly carried weapon creates some sort of force field.

I think you just described about 90 per cent of the posters here. :supergrin:

xmanhockey7
12-08-2011, 09:32
Here is the post you made and my question to you.I asked the question believing you had read my brief description of the area in Post #12. You responded with the part in bold below...

Now, I agree with your observation that there may be unknown details we don't know about, there usually are in a lot of cases. The same curiosity about your comments caused me to wonder about your situation, so I went over to OCDO and did a little reading.It has to do with the question, "Is it wise or safe to open carry everywhere, all the time?" Since you cannot carry concealed there in Michigan where you live, "Are there any areas you avoid" is a legitimate question.

I'll put it another way. Are there areas where you live, if you had to be there at 8:15 PM, after dark, where if you could conceal, you would conceal because of the criminal element potentially in those areas?

As I said in my earlier post, maybe comparing your metro area to Richmond is not apples to apples. Then, let's go north 50 miles to the Grand Rapids metro area. The 1.3 million population there is more similar to Richmond. Do you get up there much, know the area? I'm certain you might find areas there you should/would avoid.

The question is relevant because in Michigan you can only open carry.[QUOTE=RussP;18257794]Now, let's get back to you. On OCDO you posted that you are 19 and have a North Dakota Concealed Carry Permit. Since you are only 19, that would be a Class 2 permit, wouldn't it. So, by virtue of your age, you can ONLY open carry there in Michigan.Do you see it now?

What kind of bug do you carry. I carry a S&W snubbie in an ankle holster. Where do you carry yours?

For CC (out of state) it's a Ruger LCP left pocket (opposite side of my gun). Because I don't have a MI CPL I don't carry a BUG in Michigan. And I would have no problem carrying in GR. I normally just pass through and don't stop there though. I OC wherever I legally can. I've tried to CC my Glock 22 and Springfield XDm 3.8c. While I am able to conceal them I find it far more comfortable to OC and IMHO makes it less likely I will need to use it in SD.

cowboy1964
12-08-2011, 09:37
I OC IN NH and VT. Anyone is mostly free to walk up behiind me and draw my fully-loaded G17 from its holster and pull the trigger at me. But the G17 wont fire. It has my Otapin in it, holding the slide back 6mm. So while the gun snatcher wonders why it won't fire, he gets sprayed in the face with my OC spray while I get my G17 back. I would then pull the Otapin out, and then take control of the situation.

That's terrific but I'd prefer to not be put into the situation of having to fight to get the gun back in the first place. Way too many things could go wrong.

RussP
12-08-2011, 10:43
Here is the post you made and my question to you.I asked the question believing you had read my brief description of the area in Post #12. You responded with the part in bold below...

Now, I agree with your observation that there may be unknown details we don't know about, there usually are in a lot of cases. The same curiosity about your comments caused me to wonder about your situation, so I went over to OCDO and did a little reading.It has to do with the question, "Is it wise or safe to open carry everywhere, all the time?" Since you cannot carry concealed there in Michigan where you live, "Are there any areas you avoid" is a legitimate question.

I'll put it another way. Are there areas where you live, if you had to be there at 8:15 PM, after dark, where if you could conceal, you would conceal because of the criminal element potentially in those areas?

As I said in my earlier post, maybe comparing your metro area to Richmond is not apples to apples. Then, let's go north 50 miles to the Grand Rapids metro area. The 1.3 million population there is more similar to Richmond. Do you get up there much, know the area? I'm certain you might find areas there you should/would avoid.

The question is relevant because in Michigan you can only open carry.Now, let's get back to you. On OCDO you posted that you are 19 and have a North Dakota Concealed Carry Permit. Since you are only 19, that would be a Class 2 permit, wouldn't it. So, by virtue of your age, you can ONLY open carry there in Michigan.Do you see it now?

What kind of bug do you carry. I carry a S&W snubbie in an ankle holster. Where do you carry yours?

For CC (out of state) it's a Ruger LCP left pocket (opposite side of my gun). Because I don't have a MI CPL I don't carry a BUG in Michigan. And I would have no problem carrying in GR. I normally just pass through and don't stop there though. I OC wherever I legally can. I've tried to CC my Glock 22 and Springfield XDm 3.8c. While I am able to conceal them I find it far more comfortable to OC and IMHO makes it less likely I will need to use it in SD.Okay, is it you're refusing to answer the question, or you do not understand the question?

I also carry everywhere it is legal. I readily admit that I avoid certain areas at certain times, even while carrying, because of the possibility of unwanted attention from bad guys. And open carrying, no way, no how.

For all the years I've been carrying, and all the years here on GT, I've advocated open carrying only when and where appropriate, and that the "when" and "where" will be different for different people. I'm asking about your "where".

From this site, http://www.neighborhoodscout.com/mi/kalamazoo/crime/, Kalamazoo has a very high violent crime rate. It states that your chance of becoming a victim in Kalamazoo is 1 in 102, in Michigan it is 1 in 202. It notes 2.88 robberies per 1000 and 6.01 assaults per 1000 citizens. Compare those to Richmond. Here is the Richmond data page: http://www.neighborhoodscout.com/va/richmond/crime/. Assaults are 3.68 per 1000, robberies are 3.87 per 1000. It states that your chance of becoming a victim in Richmond is 1 in 125, in Virginia it is 1 in 385.

So, both Richmond and Kalamazoo have really bad people and you're more likely to be assaulted in Kalamazoo than in Richmond.

Do you know where in Kalamazoo the majority of those assaults occur? Do you avoid those places?

xmanhockey7
12-08-2011, 11:07
Okay, is it you're refusing to answer the question, or you do not understand the question?

I also carry everywhere it is legal. I readily admit that I avoid certain areas at certain times, even while carrying, because of the possibility of unwanted attention from bad guys. And open carrying, no way, no how.

For all the years I've been carrying, and all the years here on GT, I've advocated open carrying only when and where appropriate, and that the "when" and "where" will be different for different people. I'm asking about your "where".

From this site, http://www.neighborhoodscout.com/mi/kalamazoo/crime/, Kalamazoo has a very high violent crime rate. It states that your chance of becoming a victim in Kalamazoo is 1 in 102, in Michigan it is 1 in 202. It notes 2.88 robberies per 1000 and 6.01 assaults per 1000 citizens. Compare those to Richmond. Here is the Richmond data page: http://www.neighborhoodscout.com/va/richmond/crime/. Assaults are 3.68 per 1000, robberies are 3.87 per 1000. It states that your chance of becoming a victim in Richmond is 1 in 125, in Virginia it is 1 in 385.

So, both Richmond and Kalamazoo have really bad people and you're more likely to be assaulted in Kalamazoo than in Richmond.

Do you know where in Kalamazoo the majority of those assaults occur? Do you avoid those places?

I don't have the statistical facts like you have shown but I would venture to say the majority of it comes from the downtown area, especially when you get into the northern part of the city of Kalamazoo. There are gangs in Kalamazoo. I live in the city that connects to the city of Kalamazoo (there is also Kalamazoo County). Portage is not like the city of Kalamazoo at all. Do I avoid the bad part of Kalamazoo? Yes.

Where do I carry exactly? Well like I stated earlier pretty much just the Portage area. Why? Well it's where my friends live and where a lot of businesses are that I would frequent. Best Buy, Steak n Shake, barber shop iHop, Denny's (well that's tech Kzoo I believe but not even close to the bad part). I don't really have a need to go anywhere in Kalamazoo so I don't. I will carry pretty much anywhere I go that is not on this list
750.234d Possession of firearm on certain premises prohibited; applicability; violation as misdemeanor; penalty.
Sec. 234d. (1) Except as provided in subsection (2), a person shall not possess a firearm on the premises of any of the following:
(a) A depository financial institution or a subsidiary or affiliate of a depository financial institution.
(b) A church or other house of religious worship.
(c) A court.
(d) A theatre.
(e) A sports arena.
(f) A day care center.
(g) A hospital.
(h) An establishment licensed under the Michigan liquor control act, Act No. 8 of the Public Acts of the Extra Session of 1933, being sections 436.1 to 436.58 of the Michigan Compiled Laws.
(2) This section does not apply to any of the following:
(a) A person who owns, or is employed by or contracted by, an entity described in subsection (1) if the
possession of that firearm is to provide security services for that entity.
(b) A peace officer.
(c) A person licensed by this state or another state to carry a concealed weapon.
(d) A person who possesses a firearm on the premises of an entity described in subsection (1) if that possession is with the permission of the owner or an agent of the owner of that entity.
While college campuses are not on this list they are allowed to create policies and ordinances to ban all carry and since I live in the dorms (I go to a college not in kzoo) I can't carry up here.

Gunnut 45/454
12-08-2011, 11:17
cowboy1964
And I could careless how they feel about my hand on the butt of my gun They can get over it! So do you get upset with people putting there hands on there hips? Or putting them in there pockets? WTF!

AA#5
12-08-2011, 11:21
There is nothing more amusing than hearing CCW'ers say "Never tell anyone you're carrying" then they advocate OC. :rofl:

Gunnut 45/454
12-08-2011, 11:27
jp3975
You might change your mind about my getting my gun to save your eye from being removed from your socket! I love guy's like you. Try and get my gun your going to die!:rofl:

RussP
12-08-2011, 11:59
I don't have the statistical facts like you have shown but I would venture to say the majority of it comes from the downtown area, especially when you get into the northern part of the city of Kalamazoo. There are gangs in Kalamazoo. I live in the city that connects to the city of Kalamazoo (there is also Kalamazoo County). Portage is not like the city of Kalamazoo at all. Do I avoid the bad part of Kalamazoo? Yes.

Where do I carry exactly? Well like I stated earlier pretty much just the Portage area. Why? Well it's where my friends live and where a lot of businesses are that I would frequent. Best Buy, Steak n Shake, barber shop iHop, Denny's (well that's tech Kzoo I believe but not even close to the bad part). I don't really have a need to go anywhere in Kalamazoo so I don't. I will carry pretty much anywhere I go that is not on this list

While college campuses are not on this list they are allowed to create policies and ordinances to ban all carry and since I live in the dorms (I go to a college not in kzoo) I can't carry up here.Thank you.

jp3975
12-08-2011, 12:08
jp3975
You might change your mind about my getting my gun to save your eye from being removed from your socket! I love guy's like you. Try and get my gun your going to die!:rofl:

Yeah sure...youre badder than all the cops and everyone else who has had theirs taken away. :upeyes:

Poor Knight
12-08-2011, 12:19
I don't understand the vitriol on both sides of this OC vs CCW debate. I do both when appropriate. Most of the time CC is appropriate to the situation, especially in urban or suburban environments in the US. Sometimes OC works better, like when in a rural setting or with a group working as a team

JoeCitizen
12-08-2011, 12:34
I don't understand the vitriol on both sides of this OC vs CCW debate. I do both when appropriate. Most of the time CC is appropriate to the situation, especially in urban or suburban environments in the US. Sometimes OC works better, like when in a rural setting or with a group working as a team

Look, talking with reason has no place in this thread. Take a hike!! :rofl:

Please know that I'm 100% joking. You make a sound statement. I only CC. Out in the woods all by myself is about the only place I would consider OC. Then again, when I lived in Alaska, my clothing covered my sidearm to protect it from dirt, mud, trees, rain, etc.

My hang up is that I can't get past the mental picture of someone coming up behind me (I don't have eyes in the back of my head), popping the snap, pull the weapon and blow a hole through my spine. It would only take about a quarter to half of a second to do it. Oh well, that's my hang up and appparently not everyone shares it.

RussP
12-08-2011, 13:23
jp3975
You might change your mind about my getting my gun to save your eye from being removed from your socket! I love guy's like you. Try and get my gun your going to die!:rofl:

Yeah sure...youre badder than all the cops and everyone else who has had theirs taken away. :upeyes:Knock it off you two. :impatient:

AA#5
12-08-2011, 13:52
Yeah sure...youre badder than all the cops and everyone else who has had theirs taken away. :upeyes:

Keyboard Courage :rofl::rofl:

Warp
12-08-2011, 13:59
Yeah, you're right. I forgot about all those people who buy x-ray vision glasses out of the back of comic books.

Don't be the ignorant fool who thinks that because a gun is concealed nobody knows it is there.

Warp
12-08-2011, 14:01
Yeah sure...youre badder than all the cops and everyone else who has had theirs taken away. :upeyes:

Cops actively seek out, make contact with, go hands on with and apprehend criminals. A criminal who "isn't going back to prison" is often backed into a corner where his/her only options are to go back to prison, possibly for a long time for life, or fight the officer in an attempt to escape. Big difference between that and a private citizen carrying a gun.

There is nothing more amusing than hearing CCW'ers say "Never tell anyone you're carrying" then they advocate OC. :rofl:

I haven't seen that. Can you provide a reference? To whom are you referring?

JoeCitizen
12-08-2011, 14:04
Don't be the ignorant fool who thinks that because a gun is concealed nobody knows it is there.

Please stop, you're killing me!! :rofl::rofl::rofl:

Warp
12-08-2011, 14:07
Please stop, you're killing me!!



You can use all of the silly little smilies you want. It won't hide the fact that you clearly have a lot to learn.

I suggest you begin by reading this thread, which happens to be a sticky in this forum.

http://glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1364300

rpew1
12-08-2011, 14:10
I see no logical benifit to OC besides comfort.

Gunnut 45/454
12-08-2011, 14:10
jp3975
Goes to show your mindset that you think it's cool to try an take an OC'd gun or even contiplate doing so! Only the criminal mine would think that way! Law abiding folks would never have the thought! Yes the possibility is there when one OC's that you can run into a person such as yourself that would think hey I'll steal his firearm. When I OC I get in that mindset to prevent that from happening to me. I up my SA to account for that to happen and prepare myself if it should happen. I take extra precuations to minimize it from happening. Thats what a responsible gun carrier does!:whistling:

Warp
12-08-2011, 14:16
Ocing may prevent petty crime


Would you consider a crew of armed robbers hitting a restaurant "petty crime"?

http://www.examiner.com/gun-rights-in-atlanta/open-carry-deters-armed-robbery-kennesaw

xmanhockey7
12-08-2011, 14:28
Would you consider a crew of armed robbers hitting a restaurant "petty crime"?

http://www.examiner.com/gun-rights-in-atlanta/open-carry-deters-armed-robbery-kennesaw

Good link. With a lot of people's logic the criminals in this case would have gone in and just shot the OCers but they didn't and we don't have any cases of any criminals doing that. Odd

JoeCitizen
12-08-2011, 14:33
You can use all of the silly little smilies you want. It won't hide the fact that you clearly have a lot to learn.

I suggest you begin by reading this thread, which happens to be a sticky in this forum.

http://glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1364300

Your inputs on this thread has me seriously questioning your judgment. Therefore, I'm not terribly concerned with your reading recommendations. I haven't read this link. But the fact you take stock in it leaves me not valuing it much.

Can one out of every few thousand people suspect I'm carrying when concealed? Yeah, maybe. But 100% of the people that see an exposed gun on ones' hip know you're carrying. I'd just rather not hang it out there begging for attention. Personal choice, I figure.

Warp
12-08-2011, 14:40
Your inputs on this thread has me seriously questioning your judgment. Therefore, I'm not terribly concerned with your reading recommendations.

You have a strong case of denial.

The thread is a sticky for a reason. Go read it.




Personal choice, I figure.

Yes, it is. And I fully respect your choice to always conceal to the best of your ability.

JoeCitizen
12-08-2011, 14:49
You have a strong case of denial.

The thread is a sticky for a reason. Go read it.






Yes, it is. And I fully respect your choice to always conceal to the best of your ability.

That's cool. Best as I can tell, you've given OC a lot of thought. Not sure the fellow in the news story the OP put up had. Sounds like he was new to carrying in general. As a newby, he would be alive today if he'd had his weapon concealed. Pros and cons to everything I suppose. We have to live (or die) with our choices.

Yeah, a lot of the stickies here are useful. I just don't take them all as gospel. Most of them I've read I agree with, sometimes they leave me rolling my eyes. Pretty much like everything else...take what's useful and politely leave the rest.

RussP
12-08-2011, 15:30
http://glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1364300Your inputs on this thread has me seriously questioning your judgment. Therefore, I'm not terribly concerned with your reading recommendations. I haven't read this link. But the fact you take stock in it leaves me not valuing it much.

Can one out of every few thousand people suspect I'm carrying when concealed? Yeah, maybe. But 100% of the people that see an exposed gun on ones' hip know you're carrying. I'd just rather not hang it out there begging for attention. Personal choice, I figure.That's cool. Best as I can tell, you've given OC a lot of thought. Not sure the fellow in the news story the OP put up had. Sounds like he was new to carrying in general. As a newby, he would be alive today if he'd had his weapon concealed. Pros and cons to everything I suppose. We have to live (or die) with our choices.

Yeah, a lot of the stickies here are useful. I just don't take them all as gospel. Most of them I've read I agree with, sometimes they leave me rolling my eyes. Pretty much like everything else...take what's useful and politely leave the rest.Okay, would you read the linked post if I recommend it? Go ahead, it's worth the time, at least most of it.

RussP
12-08-2011, 15:34
Good link. With a lot of people's logic the criminals in this case would have gone in and just shot the OCers but they didn't and we don't have any cases of any criminals doing that. OddHasn't happened yet, but then, neither had anything like the shooting at the BP convenience store in Richmond, Virginia happened before November 25, 2011 at 8:15 PM.


:cool:

Gunnut 45/454
12-08-2011, 15:43
JoeCitizen
Maybe the citizen in the article couldn't afford the required class and or license to carry concealed and his only other option besides going unarmed was to OC? In some state's to get a CCW costs hundreds of dollars -takes months to get done! So a citizen who has the option of waiting or not getting a CCW should just not protect themselves just cause alot of you folks here don't like OC? I'm a firm believer in you do what ever is legal to protect yourself. If you don't want to or can't afford to jump through the hoops to get a CCW and OC is legal by all means OC. Freedom is such an inconveince to those that hate it!:faint:

RussP
12-08-2011, 16:29
JoeCitizen
Maybe the citizen in the article couldn't afford the required class and or license to carry concealed and his only other option besides going unarmed was to OC? In some state's to get a CCW costs hundreds of dollars -takes months to get done! So a citizen who has the option of waiting or not getting a CCW should just not protect themselves just cause alot of you folks here don't like OC? I'm a firm believer in you do what ever is legal to protect yourself. If you don't want to or can't afford to jump through the hoops to get a CCW and OC is legal by all means OC. Freedom is such an inconveince to those that hate it!:faint:Mr. Tyler did have a Virginia CHP.

jp3975
12-08-2011, 18:12
My hang up is that I can't get past the mental picture of someone coming up behind me (I don't have eyes in the back of my head), popping the snap, pull the weapon and blow a hole through my spine. It would only take about a quarter to half of a second to do it. Oh well, that's my hang up and appparently not everyone shares it.

Not only that, but they could hit you in the back of the head and take it. Or shoot you in the head then go about whatever crime they where going to commit if theyre the types to kill people without worry.

But noooo....."If someone tried to take my gun Id gouge their eye out and theyd die...cause im some sort of spec ops mall ninja."

Look people...you're getting all bent out of shape and all Im saying is that oc is inferior imo to cc. You cant deny that there are extra risks in doing it. Im not saying you cant do it...just that its not ideal in my opinion.

SCmasterblaster
12-08-2011, 18:21
That's terrific but I'd prefer to not be put into the situation of having to fight to get the gun back in the first place. Way too many things could go wrong.

I'm from Cleveland. EHS74. I don't OC much, only in neighboring NH. CC here in VT.

SouthernBoyVA
12-09-2011, 07:53
I see no logical benifit to OC besides comfort.

You don't... I do.

LApm9
12-09-2011, 08:06
I read it to mean that the victim had his gun stolen then chased after the thief. Dunno. It wasn't very clearly written.

I don't think I would chase someone who had a firearm. This would be a poor instinctive response.

I may be low on testosterone, but my primary goal is to exit the situation with a minimum of physical harm. My firearm is only a means to that end.

owl6roll
12-09-2011, 08:18
Trained and untrained!!

redbaron007
12-09-2011, 08:36
I really enjoy the comments from many who allude this wouldn't have happened if Mr. Taylor was CC. As I saw in another thread, that's like saying the woman got raped for wearing a dress. Geesh!! Remember, Mr. Taylor is the victim.

Mr. Taylor evidently felt comfortable about OCing. Unfortunately, I think he made a miscalculation and attempted to retrieve his firearm from some real *********s! This BG had killed another person just 7 hours earlier.

There are many of you who will only CC, some will CC with nothing in the chamber, some carry with one in the chamber. However, there are many of us who OC frequently with no incident. It's your choice, depending on your state. Does SA increase when I OC, yep, but not that much more.

As RussP stated earlier, pick the time and place to OC.


:wavey:

red

Gunnut 45/454
12-09-2011, 10:27
jp3975
In your mind OC is inferior to CC. Just cause you don't like it! So don't do it- oh wait you can't in TX. Funny thing is 99% of those that say it not good to OC live in Non-OC states ! Us that have this freedom enjoy doing it and do it with out any problem 99% of the time. The unfortunate act by criminals cost some one his life. Thats what criminals do. I'm sure we'll find out this wasn't there first crime nor will it be there last. They probably should have been in prison but were let out early by our favorite Liberal court system. Thank God VA has the death penalty and hopefully these two scum bags will get the needle before they reproduce!

JoeCitizen
12-09-2011, 10:28
I really enjoy the comments from many who allude this wouldn't have happened if Mr. Taylor was CC. As I saw in another thread, that's like saying the woman got raped for wearing a dress. Geesh!! Remember, Mr. Taylor is the victim.

Mr. Taylor evidently felt comfortable about OCing. Unfortunately, I think he made a miscalculation and attempted to retrieve his firearm from some real *********s! This BG had killed another person just 7 hours earlier.

There are many of you who will only CC, some will CC with nothing in the chamber, some carry with one in the chamber. However, there are many of us who OC frequently with no incident. It's your choice, depending on your state. Does SA increase when I OC, yep, but not that much more.

As RussP stated earlier, pick the time and place to OC.


:wavey:

red

I'm not alluding to anything. I'm flatly stating that if the criminal hadn't seen the gun, he wouldn't have taken it. How could he have taken the gun if he had never seen it? This is not making the victim to blame. It is stating the clearly obvious. Well, it's obvious if you can lay aside your feelings for a couple seconds. ALL of us who carry are responsible for the weapon we carry. I'd just rather not advertise and hang it out there for all (including criminals) to see. I believe in doing all that I can to keep whatever guns I own out of the hands of criminals. That's why I have a house alarm and a gun safe. That's why I don't advertise I'm carrying a gun.

Gunnut 45/454
12-09-2011, 10:31
JoeCitizen
Or gee maybe they were just going to Rob him an the gun was just an added benefit?:whistling:

turbostar66
12-09-2011, 10:44
I don't think y'all are clear on the way the story was written. The way I read it is this:

For some reason the OCer chased the BG into the store, but at this point the OCer still had his weapon. Once inside the store, a struggle ensued and the OCer was overpowered and had his weapon taken from him by the BG and was then was apparently shot with his own weapon (still under investigation).

I didn't read it as the BG took his weapon first and then he chased the BG into the store.

That said, CC gives you an element of surprise that OC does not. There is no arguing that.

EDIT: I re-read the article and it is confusing.
First they say:
"Toby Smith Jr. is accused of stealing Blaine Tyler's gun inside a gas station last week and fatally shooting him after Tyler chased Smith inside the store."

Then they say:
"According to court papers, Smith and Hamiel arrived at the BP together on a single scooter and followed Tyler into the store."

Poorly written and confusing article.

JoeCitizen
12-09-2011, 11:08
"The suspects walk in and one immediately reached for Mr. Tyler's gun," Johnson said. Tyler did not draw his weapon."


Would they have reached for a gun they didn't know was there? A little more critical thinking and a little less emotion.

redbaron007
12-09-2011, 11:14
I'm not alluding to anything. I'm flatly stating that if the criminal hadn't seen the gun, he wouldn't have taken it. How could he have taken the gun if he had never seen it? This is not making the victim to blame. It is stating the clearly obvious. Well, it's obvious if you can lay aside your feelings for a couple seconds. ALL of us who carry are responsible for the weapon we carry. I'd just rather not advertise and hang it out there for all (including criminals) to see. I believe in doing all that I can to keep whatever guns I own out of the hands of criminals. That's why I have a house alarm and a gun safe. That's why I don't advertise I'm carrying a gun.

Since you seem to think you have all the details of what happened...you must be correct. Who told you they were following Mr Taylor to take specifically take his gun? Would you mind passing along every detail that makes you draw that conclusion? I mean, the articles I've read, one cannot make that absolute determination, so please provide all the other details. Making your conclusion based on a poorly written article is highly presumptious, at best.

Keep me posted.


:wavey:

red

Warp
12-09-2011, 11:26
"The suspects walk in and one immediately reached for Mr. Tyler's gun," Johnson said. Tyler did not draw his weapon."


Would they have reached for a gun they didn't know was there? A little more critical thinking and a little less emotion.

No carry choice is the best choice 100% of the time.

RussP
12-09-2011, 12:48
"The suspects walk in and one immediately reached for Mr. Tyler's gun," Johnson said. Tyler did not draw his weapon."


Would they have reached for a gun they didn't know was there? A little more critical thinking and a little less emotion.Mr. Citizen, do you remember from an earlier story that Hamiel's mother lives in the same apartment complex as Mr. Tyler? Could it be he and Smith already knew Mr. Tyler carried and followed him from the apartments to the BP on their scooter?

Where did the plan to rob Mr. Tyler begin?

Did his wife, who didn't like him carrying, talk to anyone. Did Smith and Hamiel learn about him carrying that way?

Was it really a crime of opportunity, or was it planned more in advance?

RussP
12-09-2011, 12:57
No carry choice is the best choice 100% of the time.What do you mean?

FL Zinc
12-09-2011, 13:06
Yeah sure...youre badder than all the cops and everyone else who has had theirs taken away. :upeyes:

Can I get a list of these "everyone else"s that doesn't include the person this thread was started about?

RussP
12-09-2011, 14:14
Yeah sure...youre badder than all the cops and everyone else who has had theirs taken away. :upeyes:Can I get a list of these "everyone else"s that doesn't include the person this thread was started about?One group includes Law Enforcement.

One group includes those who carry for self defense.

The other group, oh yeah, the bad guys. I imagine they do take guns away from each other, but I honestly do not believe a Google search for that information would bear fruit.

Warp
12-09-2011, 15:36
What do you mean?

No carry choice is the best choice 100% of the time.

Open, concealed, revolver, semi auto, hip, ankle, pocket, JHP, FMJ, condition 1, unchambered, etc. Name a choice that must be made and there will be potential scenarios or events where a different choice would be better.

JoeCitizen
12-09-2011, 15:57
No carry choice is the best choice 100% of the time.

Open, concealed, revolver, semi auto, hip, ankle, pocket, JHP, FMJ, condition 1, unchambered, etc. Name a choice that must be made and there will be potential scenarios or events where a different choice would be better.

Very sound statement. That's what I meant earlier by saying we all live, or die, by our choices as weapons carriers. Hopefully, most folks who carry give it a lot of thought. A gun is not a magic device that keeps away all harm. One day it may cause you the harm and there's no way to tell exactly how an encounter will play out. We do the best we can and make carry choices we believe we can live with and use most effectively. Different people will come to different conclusions about how to meet the term "effectively". I believe every person that contributed to this thread believes the Second Amendment is meant as the founding fathers wrote it. Those that carry have decided to exercise it to the full. The details of how it's carried out is mostly just fuel for discussions.

Lior
12-10-2011, 08:26
OC and CC are two very valid options for having another layer of personal defense. A wise gentleman knows which to use when. OC in public is fine if you're not in surroundings that are so crowded that situational awareness results in sensory overload. When you're in a crowded place full of uninitiated people, it is best to let the bad guys have to guess who is armed or not. In addition, in crowded circumstances it is best not to frighten the horses.
CC is fine if you can still deploy your firearm in time for it to matter.

RussP
12-10-2011, 09:34
No carry choice is the best choice 100% of the time.

Open, concealed, revolver, semi auto, hip, ankle, pocket, JHP, FMJ, condition 1, unchambered, etc. Name a choice that must be made and there will be potential scenarios or events where a different choice would be better.Very sound statement.


That's what I meant earlier by saying we all live, or die, by our choices as weapons carriers.


Hopefully, most folks who carry give it a lot of thought.


A gun is not a magic device that keeps away all harm.


One day it may cause you the harm and there's no way to tell exactly how an encounter will play out.


We do the best we can and make carry choices we believe we can live with and use most effectively.


Different people will come to different conclusions about how to meet the term "effectively".


I believe every person that contributed to this thread believes the Second Amendment is meant as the founding fathers wrote it.


Those that carry have decided to exercise it to the full.


The details of how it's carried out is mostly just fuel for discussions.Good points, excellent points...

SCmasterblaster
06-21-2012, 07:11
I contacted the author of this news story, and he doesn't know the make and model of the snatched handgun. I am betting that it was a revolver or a C-1 Glock.

1canvas
06-21-2012, 19:06
I don't know what the upside is to OCing. when LE OC its with a level 4 holster and training for weapon retention. family members of mine that are LE worry big time about their exposed gun always on display. LEOs spend many hours with the best police trainers on weapon retention and the best security holsters and still get guns snatched.
so for me I''ll keep mine hidden.
I wonder what the top SD trainers like Mas would say about OCing.

steveksux
06-21-2012, 19:51
I don't think y'all are clear on the way the story was written. The way I read it is this:

For some reason the OCer chased the BG into the store, but at this point the OCer still had his weapon. Once inside the store, a struggle ensued and the OCer was overpowered and had his weapon taken from him by the BG and was then was apparently shot with his own weapon (still under investigation).

I didn't read it as the BG took his weapon first and then he chased the BG into the store.

That said, CC gives you an element of surprise that OC does not. There is no arguing that.

EDIT: I re-read the article and it is confusing.
First they say:
"Toby Smith Jr. is accused of stealing Blaine Tyler's gun inside a gas station last week and fatally shooting him after Tyler chased Smith inside the store."

Then they say:
"According to court papers, Smith and Hamiel arrived at the BP together on a single scooter and followed Tyler into the store."

Poorly written and confusing article.Doesn't sound so confusing to me. They followed him into the store, immediately reached for the gun. OCer lost the gun in the struggle. He chased the BG (WHILE) inside the store. BG shoots OC guy with his own gun.

You're just hung up interpreting the sentence as the OC guy chased the BG inside the store as in chased him from outside the store into the store. Not the only interpretation of that sentence.

Randy

series1811
06-22-2012, 05:42
No carry choice is the best choice 100% of the time.

It is for people who don't know what they are doing.

One of the lessons police learn early, is that you bring the means for your demise, to every encounter you go to on the street.

This guy clearly would have been better off not carrying a gun.

RussP
06-22-2012, 06:38
I wonder what the top SD trainers like Mas would say about OCing.Making Open Carry Safer - Massad Ayoob | Sep 03, 2009 | (http://www.gundigest.com/gun-accessory-reviews-articles/gundigest-09-03-09-making_open_cary_safer_2)

Skip down to the last few paragraphs under Bottom Line. Here is part of the last paragraph:Open carry may not be this writer’s choice, but for many of our brothers and sisters, it is the only legal way they can be armed in public to protect themselves and their loved ones. Whether or not we choose to exercise it, we want to keep the right of open carry. Now go back and read the entire article.

:cool:

ca survivor
06-22-2012, 15:37
Concealed carry could have prevented this.

janice6
06-22-2012, 15:41
For CCWers, surprise is still our best weapon. I am not a "gunslinger". it is important for me not to advertise that I can defend myself. I need all the advantage I can get.

But, I am not shy about guns either.


I felt I had to add that this is my opinion and I don't object to OC by others.

SCmasterblaster
06-29-2012, 10:46
The snatched Richmond gun was a Glock? Does anyone know?

RussP
06-29-2012, 11:07
The snatched Richmond gun was a Glock? Does anyone know?As far as I know, that info has never been released.

steveksux
06-29-2012, 22:31
The snatched Richmond gun was a Glock? Does anyone know?Would it make a difference what kind of gun it was? Just wondering what was your train of thought was on this?

Randy

SpringerTGO
08-17-2013, 15:41
People spouting off about situational awareness and weapons retention training are living in la la land.
In the suburbs, it's easy to avoid close contact and follow the general rules about parking, proximity, etc. In populated cities, shopping centers, malls, etc. good luck with that. People you don't know are going to be close enough to bump shoulders with you, and you are going to look and feel like a paranoid idiot OC'ing and trying to avoid normal proximity, which you can't. How can you walk in a crowded mall, and see behind you? Spin in 360 degree circles while you walk?:rofl:
The bad guy always has the advantage in these situations..... They are picking the time, place, and victim. They also get the first move.
I have literally decades of martial arts training, but at my age (or any age) one of the last things I want to worry about is wrestling with a bad guy who is trying to take my weapon. That is always a life or death struggle, and that is why cops justifiably shoot people trying to get theirs.
I have a great paddle holster for my G26 with retention, which I still us only for concealed carry.
Even with a great retention system, I don't want to invite bad guys to fight with me over my weapon. I'd much sooner go about my business and hope they pick some other victim who OC's with great situational awareness and superhuman retentions skills.
For camping and rural environments go ahead and OC, but don't preach situational awareness and weapons retention in close proximity city environments.