Did I handle this situtation correctly? [Archive] - Glock Talk

PDA

View Full Version : Did I handle this situtation correctly?


voomie
12-07-2011, 18:12
Here is a situation I had when I wasnt carrying. I was heading home from campus this evening. I decided not to carry today because the two places I was going to (the university and pizza hut) had banned fire arms. I live in ohio in case anyone is curious about the laws. So I was heading home on the freeway when someone comes up on me at a high rate of speed while I was in the right/slow lane. Then they start tail gating me. After a minute or so of that they decided to pass me on the right using the exit lane. While they were doing so, they almost clip me and I instinctually honked my horn, They immediately tried slamming on their brakes to try to get me to wreck with them. I avoided the wreck and got over one lane. So did the other person and tried to wreck me again. So I shifted lanes and tried to speed up to get a few cars between us but the other person did the same. So we went back and forth between speeding up and slowing down. At this point my heart was pounding because this person would not let me loose them and I did not know if they were armed and meant me harm. My next instinct told me to get off the highway because how easy it would have been to wreck. So I did my final speed up and other person did as well and got ahead of me. I checked for other cars and got off at the last minute in an area I knew very well. The other person tried pulling off to the side of the road and putting it in reverse to get to the off ramp. I had to wait about 10-20 seconds for the light to change and it felt like forever. I began weaving through traffic like a mad man to put cars between me and the other person if they were still following. Each light I hit, I made sure I had some sort of escape route. After a few times of doubling back I was sure I lost the person but I doubled back one last time make sure. During this ordeal, I thought of calling the police but I wanted my full attention on driving so I didn't wreck. Also it would have taken a few minutes for police to get to a situation that could have ended badly in seconds. So is there anything I could have done different?

slickt0mmy
12-07-2011, 18:24
I was in a similar situation coming back to Columbus from Dayton and I'm still not sure if I did the right thing.
I was passing a large line of semis on a 2-lane section of I-70. I was only going a few miles an hour faster than them because I traveled that highway frequently and it was not uncommon to see police running radar.
Anyway, a minivan with a male driver and a female passenger comes flying up behind me and gets right on my bumper as I'm passing these semis. It took maybe 30-45 seconds from the time they reached me until I finished passing the trucks. When I did get clear of them, the minivan flew around me as the passenger flipped me off. They got back in my lane (now in front of me) and slammed on their brakes. I avoided them and much like your story, I didn't know what to do. For the next few minutes it was a cat and mouse game on the freeway, with them swerving around, flipping me off numerous times, slamming their brakes, etc.
Again, like your story, I got off at an exit, they followed, and I eventually lost them on some back roads.

I realize now that I probably should have called the police.
This scenario is what gave me the kick in the pants I needed to go get my CHL, by the way. It really shook me up.

jdavionic
12-07-2011, 18:27
Monday morning QB is always easier than making the decisions real time. I think you did fairly well. It appears you used the horn to alert the other driver that they were about to strike you, versus using it to convey a message that you were pissed at them. Assuming that's the case, I think you should have tried calling the police in the "10-20 seconds" that you sat at the light.

Other than that, road rage is problem all over. Who knows what triggers some of these people to react the way they do.

Glad to hear your safe.

no_control
12-07-2011, 18:30
did you try to just slow down and stay a few cars behind instead of trying to get a couple cars ahead?

huggytree
12-07-2011, 18:33
i would have just pulled over on the freeway and sat in my car and called 911...if he came up to my car i would have showed him my cell phone and say '911!'

next time keep your gun in your car....if he was unarmed and just wanted to beat you a gun wouldnt help you legally anyways.....not until your ready to pass out that is...somehow your supposed to know just before you pass out and then you can shoot him.

you could get a faster car???? my Challenger SRT does 170 mph....i would have gotten away from him easily

hockeyrcks9901
12-07-2011, 18:37
i would have just pulled over on the freeway and sat in my car and called 911...if he came up to my car i would have showed him my cell phone and say '911!'

next time keep your gun in your car....if he was unarmed and just wanted to beat you a gun wouldnt help you legally anyways.....not until your ready to pass out that is...somehow your supposed to know just before you pass out and then you can shoot him.

you could get a faster car???? my Challenger SRT does 170 mph....i would have gotten away from him easily

I don't know where you're from but any physical violence that I feel may cause bodily harm can be responded to with deadly force here in Florida. A beating is bodily injury. I'm not waiting until I'm about to pass out, I'm firing after the first punch.

LApm9
12-07-2011, 18:42
Remember that, unless he is going to do a kamikaze ramming, he has to get out of his car to hurt you. When he does that, and your car is mobile and maneuverable, you have the advantage. Therefore, make sure you are always mobile and maneuverable.

Don't allow him to ram your radiator or front wheels with his rear/trunk. That is your most fragile area and such a ramming would immobilize you and leave him and maneuverable.

All in all ...you did good...no skin lost!

JasonC8301
12-07-2011, 18:42
I wasn't there and do not want to Monday QB, but why speed up? I encountered this a few times and first thing "I" did once they were in front was to slam on the brakes and pull over into the shoulder. Then just sit there with my hazards on, phone with 911 on ready to go, and lasty gun in lap with doors locked. Also aware of location. Now the road rage driver would have in turn slam on his brakes and back up to you which puts them at a disadvantage. You see foward and back. All they see is back at you and deal with oncoming traffic. See the car backing up, press send on phone and put on speaker. Tell operator wth is going on, describe self, tell operator you are armed, location location location. Who knows what the other driver has. But you know you were not carrying.

slickt0mmy
12-07-2011, 18:47
I don't know where you're from but any physical violence that I feel may cause bodily harm can be responded to with deadly force here in Florida. A beating is bodily injury. I'm not waiting until I'm about to pass out, I'm firing after the first punch.

In Ohio, you'd be in quite a large pile of excrement if you shot someone after the first punch. Here, we have to either be in fear for our lives or serious bodily injury. 1 vs 1 fights are not considered to be serious bodily injury unless there is a disparity of force. If the other guy pulls a knife, baseball bat, or some other tool that could kill you, then you can shoot. But generally not just for a fist fight.

xmanhockey7
12-07-2011, 18:47
Instead of speeding up I would have slowed down and called 911. My mom had a similar situation right after she took her CPL class (didn't have the permit yet). For some reason that experience made her want to get on the ball about turning the paperwork in.

bdcremer
12-07-2011, 18:49
You did what you felt was the proper thing to do and you are still alive. Yes, it was stressful and you may hope for the scenario to have been played out differently. However, you made it through and you can learn from it.

I would have gotten to a well lighted and public place (with cameras preferably) and called 911. If you could write down the license plate and let the police provide some order maintenance. Many, not all big box stores like Lowes, Home Depot, Wal-Mart, Best Buy have cameras in the parking lot.

Not all stressful situations can be solved with a weapon. Situational awareness, physical & mental fitness, driving skills can be just as important as any weapon in our non-sensical urban environments. Your mind and body are the most amazing instruments you possess.

Boot Stomper
12-07-2011, 18:56
I agree with calling 911. If you would have wrecked the police would have been on the way to your area.

If you can legally keep your gun in your vehicle on campus, it may be a good idea. Try to find a way of securing it in your car.

Be safe.

hockeyrcks9901
12-07-2011, 18:57
In Ohio, you'd be in quite a large pile of excrement if you shot someone after the first punch. Here, we have to either be in fear for our lives or serious bodily injury. 1 vs 1 fights are not considered to be serious bodily injury unless there is a disparity of force. If the other guy pulls a knife, baseball bat, or some other tool that could kill you, then you can shoot. But generally not just for a fist fight.

One punch kills are not that uncommon; falling and hitting pavement or head trauma from the punch. Therefore I believe you would be in fear of serious bodily injury in a fight. Of course, if you are a mutual aggressor than this is not true.

Spiffums
12-07-2011, 19:00
Get up under em, get em loose and put em in the wall. Your Honor I thought they wanted to race and as you well know rubbing is racing.

wrenrj1
12-07-2011, 19:02
You did what you felt was the proper thing to do and you are still alive. Yes, it was stressful and you may hope for the scenario to have been played out differently. However, you made it through and you can learn from it.


this.

Secondly, you are in college, use paragraphs!:tongueout: Glad everything turned out alright. Only thing I would have done differently is to call the PD on my cell phone.

BSteadman
12-07-2011, 19:03
Where are these maniacís when I'm driving...I'd just love to plow into some numb nuts pulling that ill-advised behavior.

http://i264.photobucket.com/albums/ii163/bksteadman/BrushGuard1.jpg

Atomic Punk
12-07-2011, 19:10
bit of freeway i used to travel a lot had many cops patrol it that were very stringent about speed limits. so i kept very close to the limit. had a lot of people that wanted to drive 20+ over the limit flash their brights at me. had a 1.5 million candle power spot light in the back seat i flashed back at them.

wuvmyglock
12-07-2011, 19:10
In Ohio, you'd be in quite a large pile of excrement if you shot someone after the first punch. Here, we have to either be in fear for our lives or serious bodily injury. 1 vs 1 fights are not considered to be serious bodily injury unless there is a disparity of force. If the other guy pulls a knife, baseball bat, or some other tool that could kill you, then you can shoot. But generally not just for a fist fight.


You could always lend them a knife, club or tire iron.. :whistling::whistling:

USMCSergeant
12-07-2011, 19:19
One punch kills are not that uncommon; falling and hitting pavement or head trauma from the punch. Therefore I believe you would be in fear of serious bodily injury in a fight. Of course, if you are a mutual aggressor than this is not true.

I've seen hundreds of fights where this didn't happen, and I've never heard of this happening. I knew of one guy that was hit from behind at the base of the skull and had a seizure, but never close to dying. I think dying from a single punch would be a freak occurance, unless you're fighting a gorilla. Think if a jury would agree with you.

MinervaDoe
12-07-2011, 19:21
Trunk Monkey:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RCUBxgdKZ_Y

guanoman
12-07-2011, 19:31
I think in this situation the best thing would have been to simply dial 911.

GOCANES
12-07-2011, 19:36
It must be an Ohio thing. I make a ritual of traveling by car to NCAA football games to support my favorite team, usually traveling several hundred miles thru several states. Normally it's a lot of good natured "thumbs down" thru the windows of passing cars as we get closer to the opposing teams city..stuff like that. However, last September we traveled to Columbus, Ohio to watch our team play the Buckeyes. About an hour outside Columbus (two days before the game) we were gettting the fingers...vulgar language...really nasty stuff from other drivers on the interstate. And not in fun at all. We know when we see opposing fans and these folks looked like they would not know a football from a basketball. Scary stuff up there in Ohio...

beatcop
12-07-2011, 19:39
Call 911 tell them the guy is brake checking you on purpose and trying to run you off the road.

Slow down and put 4-ways on...makes it easier for reponding unit to see you.

Slow down well below the speed limit, so it's uncomfortably slow...attracts all sorts of witnesses. Press horn for the next five mins....continuously hold.

Do not stop or drive like a fool. You will survive a hit better at 30 mph than at 80 trying to get away.

Do not head toward your house.

VaporLock24
12-07-2011, 19:45
calling 911 is the best thing to do, and if you can get off an exit before they try to break check you again. Unfortunately, the drivers in Miami are the same way, and its an everyday thing here. One day, just recently im driving down i-95, doing the speed limit, and some a-hole(you can guess the race) pulls up next to me beeping and flicking me off..what did I do..i have no idea what i did to even cause this issue, i kept driving and he kept on doing the same thing for a few miles, he even pointed to his head like a gun going off with his fingers and then to me..beeping and flicking me off with these hand gestures..
about a month ago on the R6 im cruising down the highway(doing the speed limit), getting off the exit, and another a-hole(guess the race again) in a truck 2 lanes over starts beeping and gives me the finger..really?
i should have jumped back on and kicked in his door...but thats too much work..and more problems than its worth

voomie
12-07-2011, 19:47
It is true that I cannot claim self defense unless I there is a threat of severe bodily harm (ie attacked with a weapon) or death. Therefore I can not draw and fire unless it is an absolute necessity to preserve my life or someone else's life. Also unless you are in your home and someone is breaking in, there is a duty to retreat in Ohio. Normally I keep my gun locked in the trunk while I am campus because the law and the university legally allows me to. Today was one of the few days I did not decide to carry.

The reason why I sped up was to get cars between me and the other guy. It increases his chance of wrecking in order to get to me and to try to loose the guy. The longer I could keep him at bay gave him more time to try to cool down. Also I figured I could sustain more damage to the rear than the front and keep moving.

There was no way I was going to stop unless I legally had to. I did not know if the other person was armed with a gun. It takes 30 seconds for them to walk to from their car to mine, shoot me and drive away while I left for dead. So how is a locked car and holding up a cell phone showing 911 going to prevent that? I didnt call 911 when I was stopped because I was too busy looking for the guy, trying to find as many escape routes as possible, make different route plans if I need to change course and contingency plans if the situation escalated. So I was preoccupied mentally along with the stress.

RussP
12-07-2011, 19:48
Call 911 tell them the guy is brake checking you on purpose and trying to run you off the road.

Slow down and put 4-ways on...makes it easier for reponding unit to see you.

Slow down well below the speed limit, so it's uncomfortably slow...attracts all sorts of witnesses. Press horn for the next five mins....continuously hold.

Do not stop or drive like a fool. You will survive a hit better at 30 mph than at 80 trying to get away.

Do not head toward your house.This is good advice. Be obnoxiously obvious and absolutely call 911. They just might kill the people in the next vehicle they harass.

LippCJ7
12-07-2011, 21:12
Ultimately you got home safe and thats most important, looking back to review the events is a great idea even though its tough for some to pick the events apart, learning from the experience is number one after you get home safely!

First mistake is not carrying, obviously you know that now, solve the issues that prevented you from protecting yourself, Car safe for your weapon or whatever the case may be there is always a way.

Its hard to determine what another yahoo on the road will do these days once you have irritated them but typically deescalating the situation is the safest and first choice most sane individuals choose, call 911 immediately with a license plate, get the cavalry enroute, having hands free is wonderful. I drive big miles so I have called in several questionable situations usually between other drivers where I was merely a witness, I also drive a lifted 1 ton Diesel truck so I rarely get messed with but I will not allow others to jeopardize the safety of my children so when I witness these things I get involved in a safe manor at the drop of a hat(sometimes it irritates my wife but oh well its my nature). If you choose to go my route expect as much as a 15 minute time frame to get the troops to you, remember that your moving, so LEO's are going to have to guess what happens next to get to you, your dispatcher will likely keep you on line to coordinate efforts(again hands free is a godsend) once they pull the offending parties over you need to pull over too or tell the dispatcher where you will be located for interview by LEO if your on the highway this can be difficult but give the LEO's plenty of room to conduct their business, remember you don't know what the License plate you provided told Dispatch so you could very easily wind up in the middle of a felony stop and you don't want that!

Tooting my own horn here I have had a hand in 2 DUI arrests and one 86 yr old lady who got on the highway (northbound in the southbound lanes) turns out the poor gal was on her way to the Pharmacy as her prescription had run out and she was well "not all there" and no one was available to deliver her or her prescription, Scared the heck out of me and my wife driving north witnessing it all unfold....

ETA...No me and my wife were not driving north in the southbound lanes, also I have increased my speed to keep visual on certain situations but again you have to judge what is safe for the situation, is the crime you witnessed serious enough to warrant your actions, each situation can be very different, be up front with dispatch, they can and will help you!

Lord
12-08-2011, 00:00
In Ohio, you'd be in quite a large pile of excrement if you shot someone after the first punch. Here, we have to either be in fear for our lives or serious bodily injury. 1 vs 1 fights are not considered to be serious bodily injury unless there is a disparity of force. If the other guy pulls a knife, baseball bat, or some other tool that could kill you, then you can shoot. But generally not just for a fist fight.

It would seem to me that since the other guy went so far as to try to get you to wreck into him, stayed with and harassing you as he did, if he had had the opportunity to jump out of his vehicle and come at you aggressively, then you should be apprehensive and possibly in fear for your life. The use of force was authorized at his first sign of aggression, the use of deadly force (depending on who you ask, granted) would have become authorized at the moment you start to think "this guy wants to hurt and possibly kill me". If you can't carry where you're going to be, you should at least carry on your way there, and after you leave. In other words, keep it in the car.

djpuffnstuff
12-08-2011, 00:16
I've seen hundreds of fights where this didn't happen, and I've never heard of this happening. I knew of one guy that was hit from behind at the base of the skull and had a seizure, but never close to dying. I think dying from a single punch would be a freak occurance, unless you're fighting a gorilla. Think if a jury would agree with you.


a quick google search brings up at least 6 seperate incidents on the first page.

https://www.google.com/#hl=en&sclient=psy-ab&q=died+from+one+punch&pbx=1&oq=died+from+one+punch&aq=f&aqi=g-v1&aql=&gs_sm=e&gs_upl=16610l23064l2l23260l31l13l7l7l7l0l170l1541l4.9l25l0&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.,cf.osb&fp=2308e0d0136506fd&biw=1680&bih=955

USMCSergeant
12-08-2011, 01:09
Around the world, in a few months, 6 seperate incidents. You still have 10 times the chance of winning the lottery twice in a row, than being killed by a single punch.

What really matters is what will the jury think? I like escalation of force. 1 on 1, get away, if you are unable to get away then use the force appropriate to defend yourself. At any point you feel your life is in danger, including a weapon is shown, or you're losing considerably.. draw your firearm. You shoot a guy that's walking up to hit you with his fist and you will probably have a negative outcome in the court system.

IlliniGlocker
12-08-2011, 01:45
In those situations drive to the nearest police station or massively public place where you can call for help.

FlCracker70
12-08-2011, 08:47
Call 911 tell them the guy is brake checking you on purpose and trying to run you off the road.

Slow down and put 4-ways on...makes it easier for reponding unit to see you.

Slow down well below the speed limit, so it's uncomfortably slow...attracts all sorts of witnesses. Press horn for the next five mins....continuously hold.

Do not stop or drive like a fool. You will survive a hit better at 30 mph than at 80 trying to get away.

Do not head toward your house.

This is GREAT advise but I think that it needs some followup / additional advise:

1) AFTER calling 911 and driving slowly, if there is car to car contact, continue to drive if possible. Avoid stopping the car if at all possible. You are trying to avoid contact with an obviously deranged person. It's only a car and it can be replaced.

2) Get a gun for your car. I always carry (except for the times that I don't). I have a Glock in my car for circumstances like this.

3) In your 911 call make sure you say that you are in fear for your life. That's not any BS as a person is chasing you in a vehicle and in any reasonable persons mind that SCARY.

4) Hopefully wait for police to get to you and deal with the other driver.

5) If all the above fails and you can no longer keep your pursuer at bay, get your gun out and exit the vehicle.

If you are alone in the car, exit to the opposite side of the car of the pursuer and tell him the police have been called. IF he continues to aim center of mass and tell him to STOP! STOP! STOP! If he fails to comply, fire until he stops pursuing you.

If you children in the car, exit the car and engage this person as close to HIS car as possible. Aim center of mass and tell him the police have been called. If he continues to engage, fire until he complies.

Should the situation require you shooting the person / shooting at the person, anticipate that the police don't know exactly what has happened and understand that they don't know that you have a white hat and the other person has a black hat. Comply with all police commands but under no circumstances should you talk to / explain the situation to the police. Ask for your attorney (and you should know who that is before this situation happens) and shut your mouth.

This example is a great one of why its prudent to have more than one gun available. Also for those of you who say that one can't fire until physically assaulted, your knowledge of the law in every state is wrong. In any case, the ramming of your car is a physical assault.

I know that in the circumstances that you described, you did not have a gun and it this response was rather long-winded. Learning from others however is essential in this area as making your own mistakes could be fatal.

dojpros1998
12-08-2011, 09:17
FLCracker70

Where did you go to law school?

How many cases of serious assault or homicide have you prosecuted or defended?

In what jurisdictions?

Gunnut 45/454
12-08-2011, 09:49
MinervaDoe
Dude that was sick! Trunk Monkey rocks!:supergrin:

OP : you should have called 911-got the plate number an filed a report.
Here in ID the Statepolice would have contacted the individual and gave them a ticket -done this a couple of times myself-Idaho takes a very dim veiw of agressive drivers and they will yank your licence after two incidences! Not only that but there's also a very good chance if you would be shot if you want to engage in violent acts while driving!:rofl:

RussP
12-08-2011, 09:52
This is GREAT advise but I think that it needs some followup / additional advise:

1) AFTER calling 911 and driving slowly, if there is car to car contact, continue to drive if possible. Avoid stopping the car if at all possible. You are trying to avoid contact with an obviously deranged person. It's only a car and it can be replaced.

2) Get a gun for your car. I always carry (except for the times that I don't). I have a Glock in my car for circumstances like this.

3) In your 911 call make sure you say that you are in fear for your life. That's not any BS as a person is chasing you in a vehicle and in any reasonable persons mind that SCARY.

4) Hopefully wait for police to get to you and deal with the other driver.

5) If all the above fails and you can no longer keep your pursuer at bay, get your gun out and exit the vehicle.

If you are alone in the car, exit to the opposite side of the car of the pursuer and tell him the police have been called. IF he continues to aim center of mass and tell him to STOP! STOP! STOP! If he fails to comply, fire until he stops pursuing you.

If you children in the car, exit the car and engage this person as close to HIS car as possible. Aim center of mass and tell him the police have been called. If he continues to engage, fire until he complies.

Should the situation require you shooting the person / shooting at the person, anticipate that the police don't know exactly what has happened and understand that they don't know that you have a white hat and the other person has a black hat. Comply with all police commands but under no circumstances should you talk to / explain the situation to the police. Ask for your attorney (and you should know who that is before this situation happens) and shut your mouth.

This example is a great one of why its prudent to have more than one gun available. Also for those of you who say that one can't fire until physically assaulted, your knowledge of the law in every state is wrong. In any case, the ramming of your car is a physical assault.

I know that in the circumstances that you described, you did not have a gun and it this response was rather long-winded. Learning from others however is essential in this area as making your own mistakes could be fatal.Are you giving general advice for persons in every state, or would you like to address your comments only to residents of Florida?

FlCracker70
12-08-2011, 09:56
FLCracker70

Where did you go to law school?

How many cases of serious assault or homicide have you prosecuted or defended?

In what jurisdictions?

I'm not an attorney but I did stay in a Holiday Inn Express. :whistling:

I do however reject the assertion that you're making with your questions. Specifically that if I went to law school, I would know more about firearms laws. Most attorneys, many which I deal with on a social level, have no idea about firearms law. Most attorneys do not practice criminal law as most practice in the civil area. Those of my friends who are criminal attorneys have agreed with my readings of the Florida statutes.

I like you and everyone else who's reading this post is governed by these laws. These laws are not meant to be indiscernible by a reasonable person reading the legislation and by reviewing case law in a particular jurisdiction. In Florida, self-defense is codified in Chapter 776 of the Florida statutes. This statute, titled Justifiable Use of Force, and in chapter 12 states

776.012 Use of force in defense of person.—A person is justified in using force, except deadly force, against another when and to the extent that the person reasonably believes that such conduct is necessary to defend himself or herself or another against the other’s imminent use of unlawful force.

However, a person is justified in the use of deadly force and does not have a duty to retreat if:

(1) He or she reasonably believes that such force is necessary to prevent imminent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the imminent commission of a forcible felony; or

(2) Under those circumstances permitted pursuant to s. 776.013.
History.—s. 13, ch. 74-383; s. 1188, ch. 97-102; s. 2, ch. 2005-27.

Subparagraph (2) 776.013 he goes on to state:

776.013 Home protection; use of deadly force; presumption of fear of death or great bodily harm.—
(1) A person is presumed to have held a reasonable fear of imminent peril of death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another when using defensive force that is intended or likely to cause death or great bodily harm to another if:
(a) The person against whom the defensive force was used was in the process of unlawfully and forcefully entering, or had unlawfully and forcibly entered, a dwelling, residence, or occupied vehicle, or if that person had removed or was attempting to remove another against that person’s will from the dwelling, residence, or occupied vehicle; and
(b) The person who uses defensive force knew or had reason to believe that an unlawful and forcible entry or unlawful and forcible act was occurring or had occurred.


These two sections of the statutes detail what the law is relative to self-defense and state of Florida. The law is meant to be written in a way such that a reasonable person can read it and understand what his rights and responsibilities are the under law. (which is very different from the federal tax code) These sections make it particularly clear that in the state of Florida one is justified to defend oneself with deadly force under the circumstances I described. There is no additional statutes that an attorney can except for case law which does not change statutory law but instead clarifies positions that may not have been clearly contemplated in the original legislation.

In no place in the legislation does it address whether or not a person must be physically struck before using deadly force. Such conjecture by certain individuals that one needs to be beaten to within an inch of your life before you can justifiably use deadly force is just wrong.

Again I'm quoting only Florida law as that's where I live but I'd love to see other statutes that include language that require physical assaults before deadly force can be justified. Should you find this in any statute, I'd be very curious to see how this is reconciled with police shootings where there are no physical assaults of the officer.

Again everyone who's reading this post should first carefully read all their state laws applicable to self-defense before assumptions are made relative to what or what is not included in a particular law.

FlCracker70
12-08-2011, 09:58
Are you giving general advice for persons in every state, or would you like to address your comments only to residents of Florida?

Florida Only

cloudbuster
12-08-2011, 10:42
I'm in Ohio and I've dealt with a few road ragers. I've had a couple people try to muscle me off the road, but I'm generally in the bigger, older vehicle (currently a 2002 F150), and what I find is that most people really aren't prepared to go the distance and make contact if you don't flinch. Nobody likes to pay for body work and increased insurance rates. That said, there's some crazy people out there.

When confronted by drivers like this, what I do is slow down -- as others have said, you are in a much better position to survive (or avoid) an accident when you are moving slowly. You mentioned that you were "weaving through traffic like a mad man." At that point, you yourself are a road danger and are probably frightening other drivers. You have ceased looking like the grown-up in the situation. To witnesses, now it may look like "two crazy people racing and going Road Warrior on each other."

Follow the slow down advice. If they persist in harassing you, dial 911. That was all good advice. Never stop the vehicle or get out of the vehicle if you can avoid it.

Trying to stay ahead of them is the wrong approach. Slowing down and letting them get ahead of you is the better tactic, because you can see what they're doing at all times.

I'm not a lawyer, but as a CHL holder in Ohio, I'm familiar with the statutes. This isn't legal advice, but what I would think is that if they actually made intentional vehicle-to-vehicle contact trying to run you off the road, they're using a deadly weapon (a vehicle) and attempting vehicular homicide.

Ohio is also a castle doctrine state and a vehicle counts as a residence for the purpose of the statute:

ORC 2307.601: No duty to retreat in residence or vehicle.

(A) As used in this section:

(1) “Residence” and “vehicle” have the same meanings as in section 2901.05 of the Revised Code.

(2) “Tort action” has the same meaning as in section 2307.60 of the Revised Code.

(B) For purposes of determining the potential liability of a person in a tort action related to the person’s use of force alleged to be in self-defense, defense of another, or defense of the person’s residence, if the person lawfully is in that person’s residence, the person has no duty to retreat before using force in self-defense, defense of another, or defense of that person’s residence, and, if the person lawfully is an occupant of that person’s vehicle or lawfully is an occupant in a vehicle owned by an immediate family member of the person, the person has no duty to retreat before using force in self-defense or defense of another.

Effective Date: 2008 SB184 09-09-2008

ORC 2901.05: Burden of proof - reasonable doubt - self-defense.

(B)(1) Subject to division (B)(2) of this section, a person is presumed to have acted in self defense or defense of another when using defensive force that is intended or likely to cause death or great bodily harm to another if the person against whom the defensive force is used is in the process of unlawfully and without privilege to do so entering, or has unlawfully and without privilege to do so entered, the residence or vehicle occupied by the person using the defensive force.


If you find yourself in a disabled vehicle, if the otherwise unarmed man enters the vehicle to attack you, you have no duty to retreat and are justified in using deadly force. Of course, if they have a gun, you don't have to wait for them to get to your vehicle or to take a shot at you.

If your car will limp along at all -- on rims, spewing radiator fluid, I don't care -- the best thing to do is probably to drive away as soon as they get out of their car. If you're in contact with 911, it will be simple to explain that you're not fleeing the scene of an accident, you're in fear for your life, and arrange to meet up with police.

Always carry. Keep your gun in your car when you have to venture into criminal protection zones.

FireForged
12-08-2011, 11:23
After they passed me and then started acting silly, I would just just slowed down to well below the speed limit or just pulled off to a safe location.

Numismatist
12-08-2011, 12:00
All the quoting of the laws is great; they are the source of the truth; however, it really comes down to a jury, and that jury is a slice of the people in the jurisdiction the event happened.

So your outcome could very well hinge on whether or not you have a pro-gun jury or an anti-gun jury - I'd think.

Lord
12-08-2011, 12:03
All the quoting of the laws is great; they are the source of the truth; however, it really comes down to a jury, and that jury is a slice of the people in the jurisdiction the event happened.

So your outcome could very well hinge on whether or not you have a pro-gun jury or an anti-gun jury - I'd think.

that thinking right there is exactly why they put into the wording of the law the following:

"it is a defense to prosecution if..."

Doc8404
12-08-2011, 12:08
stop.
call 911
if he approaches, drive 100 yards down the side of the road...keep doing that until the cops show up.
You're welcome,
MMQB

Cheytac
12-08-2011, 12:10
Don't honk at idiots... :whistling:

JuneyBooney
12-08-2011, 12:13
Always call the pd and if you have no gun or weapon tell them that you think you saw a gun waving at you. They will get stopped and pulled out of car.

Lord
12-08-2011, 12:32
I'm not an attorney but I did stay in a Holiday Inn Express. :whistling:

That killed me. LOL. Anyway... Texas has similar laws, and they were explained to our class in very plain language by the Assistant District Attorney of San Antonio.


776.012 Use of force in defense of person.óA person is justified in using force, except deadly force, against another when and to the extent that the person reasonably believes that such conduct is necessary to defend himself or herself or another against the otherís imminent use of unlawful force.




If someone is threatening you or menacing you, we no longer have a duty to retreat in TX. We used to, but we can now stand our ground. If that threatening or menacing is such that he's actually saying to you that he intends to beat you or "cause great bodily harm", then what would have been a simple assault would become an aggravated assault. Now there are other circumstances that could be relevant (time of day, etc) but a simple statement like "I'm going to kick your ..." is enough to turn it from a simple "use of force" situation (showing your weapon with or without drawing it or aiming it) where it may cause enough apprehension in the aggressor to make him stop his course of action, is justified, to a deadly force scenario. If this simple use of force is not enough and the aggressor continues, he's sending the message that you don't scare him and nothing is going to stop him from hurting you. He may even attempt to grab something nearby to use on you. From that Assist. DA's own mouth tumbled the words "in that case, shoot him".

Consider also the verbiage in the law, specifically "or great bodily harm". While getting beaten to within an inch of your life is not actually killing you, it is in fact, "great bodily harm" and could be considered "attempted 'insert crime here' ". Broken bones, cuts/lacerations, bruises, concussions, possible brain damage and the list could go on depending on who decided to ruin your day.


However, a person is justified in the use of deadly force and does not have a duty to retreat if:

(1) [I]He or she reasonably believes that such force is necessary to prevent imminent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the imminent commission of a forcible felony; or

In no place in the legislation does it address whether or not a person must be physically struck before using deadly force. Such conjecture by certain individuals that one needs to be beaten to within an inch of your life before you can justifiably use deadly force is just wrong.



in addition to all of that, we have the 'reasonable bystander' verbiage. It asks the question "would a reasonable bystander, placed into your circumstances, have reacted the same way that you did". That is a gray and arguable area to get into, but I seriously doubt if anyone in a high stress situation as we're talking about would react in any other way than an "I need to protect myself" manner. The laws here say that we don't actually need to be struck or made contact with... the threat and the manner of the threat is enough to act on.

Again everyone who's reading this post should first carefully read all their state laws applicable to self-defense before assumptions are made relative to what or what is not included in a particular law.

That is a given, and exactly why the laws are actually used to teach the CHL/CCW classes. But you're right.... everyone should read and learn them, or know someone to ask.

dojpros1998
12-08-2011, 13:38
I concur that many attys know little about criminal law.

My only assertion was if you went to law school and you defended and/or prosecuted serious assault/homicide cases, then you would know of what you speak more than someone who has not had those experiences.

The crux of the issue is this :

" He or she reasonably believes that such force[deadly] is necessary to prevent imminent death or great bodily harm" (I inserted the word deadly in the brackets)

How reasonable you actions are percieved is going to drive the train re potential prosecutions, pretrial rulings and a jury's verdict. In many, many jurisdictions, to include Fla, somebody threating to kick your ass ( v. I am going to kill you, I am going to kick your ass and kidnap your kids etc) and not stopping as they approach you is not going to justify your initial physical response if that response if presenting your weapon and shooting.

Indeed, in many jurisdictions, if somebody shoots somebody to death, particularly if the shooter was the only one armed , that case is going to be presented to the grand jury for possible prosecution-period.
There are absolutely jurisdictions in Fla where this is true.

In some jurisdictions, that case is going to be prosecuted with the feeling that when somebody gets dead, a trial jury is going to be the ones to make the call -period.

While mindset and having already worked thru what your responses are going to be to various threats in our lives is important, I suspect that active conflict avoidance, projecting confidence by being in obviously good shape and not doing stupid things with stupid people in stupid places will probably help me and everone else be less likely selected potential victimhood by some road ranging A-hol%.

I am not your atty, I am not giving legal advice. YMMV greatly. Be safe and well.

pizza_pablo
12-08-2011, 14:58
i would have just pulled over on the freeway and sat in my car and called 911...if he came up to my car i would have showed him my cell phone and say '911!'

next time keep your gun in your car....if he was unarmed and just wanted to beat you a gun wouldnt help you legally anyways.....not until your ready to pass out that is...somehow your supposed to know just before you pass out and then you can shoot him.

you could get a faster car???? my Challenger SRT does 170 mph....i would have gotten away from him easily
Great advice!
Don't dare shoot someone, that's attacking you, drive 170 mph, instead! :upeyes:

TXMary
12-08-2011, 15:10
OnStar!

HKLovingIT
12-08-2011, 15:31
Here you go bro. Bear Grylls will sort you out:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4t79xOWDf50

Click ahead to minute two for road rage segment.
Bear Grylls - Worst-Case Scenario - Road Rage/Nightclub Stampede

Maybe you were dealing with this guy and didn't know it:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P7Bcov5SGU0

wnr700
12-08-2011, 16:17
Call 911 tell them the guy is brake checking you on purpose and trying to run you off the road.

Slow down and put 4-ways on...makes it easier for reponding unit to see you.

Slow down well below the speed limit, so it's uncomfortably slow...attracts all sorts of witnesses. Press horn for the next five mins....continuously hold.

Do not stop or drive like a fool. You will survive a hit better at 30 mph than at 80 trying to get away.

Do not head toward your house.

This is what I was thinking...

It's easy to Monday morning QB, but gun or no gun... I would have been with 911 from the start.

My thoughts are if I might need a gun (or wished I had a gun), I definatly in need the calvary at some point. Sooner is better than later.

Speeding up and high rates of speed endanger many. If you can't carry a gun, then certainly a taser?

id1otbox
12-08-2011, 16:40
In my opinion and if i was in the jury i would consider the car as a potentially lethal weapon and the manner in which is was used an attempt at server bodily harm and or death. If the driver succeeded in wrecking your car it is very likely you would be harmed.

I think that if the man followed you and got out of his car and approached you he has already stated his intentions through actions in the attempt to drive you off the road which could easily result in your death driving at those speeds. He in affect attempted to take your life. Why wouldn't you be able to defend yourself when someone makes an attempt at your life?

The guy doesn't need to pull out a knife or a bat. He has already used his car as a weapon.

wuvmyglock
12-08-2011, 16:43
How the hell would Texas handle this??

wnr700
12-08-2011, 17:34
To me, speeding up would excite and fuel the idiots anger and rage.

Sorta like a shark smelling blood, or a dog chasing a cat.

Certainly a thought provoking thread.

It made me think of my Thanksgiving trip through Atlanta. Between Augusta and Atlanta my cell coverage is spotty.

I have never been afraid to call 911 if I felt something was suspicious or potentially dangerous.

Wow, I never realized On Star will fit mine and my wife's Honda vehicles... hmmm

huggytree
12-08-2011, 19:29
I don't know where you're from but any physical violence that I feel may cause bodily harm can be responded to with deadly force here in Florida. A beating is bodily injury. I'm not waiting until I'm about to pass out, I'm firing after the first punch.

a local ccw trainer told my wife here in WI that in a 1 man on 1 man fight situation there is almost no way to shoot the bad guy legally....not until he is about to do serious bodily harm or before you pass out....he can beat you, but until your about to be paralyzed you cant shoot him.

im sure a woman could get away with a beating situation w/ deadly force a heck of alot easier, but a man...nope

i find it shocking that Florida has different rules...here in WI our CC law is supposed to be one of the most conservative one in the USA

beatcop
12-08-2011, 20:49
There have been a few statements posted about the "law" that sound great here, but in the cold light of the courtroom may not pass muster.

The "fear" of being punched or being engaged in a "plain" evenly matched fight may not be enough to convince a prosecutor of not coming after you with a manslaughter charge.

Before I get pummeled with the "fair" fight, din mak, one-punch-death statistics....I know already, just trying to keep it general, so as not to overwhelm the masses with objective reasonableness and subjective fears lectures.

I'm not saying you have to take a beating, just saying that the fear of a punch is not sufficient in MANY areas. Please do your own research and don't take my word for it. I recommend making friends with someone in LE and getting their newest use of force material... while not perfect, it will get you in the ball park. How many times do you hear of the police just shooting someone because they knuckled up? See the picture now? May not be the best choice. Does your State require retreat in public, prior to applying force?

You want to avoid prosecution and still survive?
- de-escalate. Do not make the situation worse by initiating contact (ramming vehicles, brake checks, verbal, the bird, stopping and getting out, etc.)

- make attempts at retreat. You are not the intial aggressor and are not going to do anything to appear that you want to engage in mutual combat. You are always trying to leave or avoid conflict.

- do not apply deadly force unless you have done your homework (ability, op, jeopardy, intent, disparity of force, age, fighting skill, past knowledge of offender, etc.) You do not want to shoot a "verbal" threat...it better be very obvious to all that you were going to be killed.


I have some rather dubious advice to offer, some may disagree: Should you decide to fire at the guy who only offers an empty hand threat, do you think two to the body & one to the head is the best course of action? I know the best stop is a center mass shot, but let's really think about it. Hmmm, if the guy doesn't die, that's a good thing.


A lot of adults have never been hit or been in a fight...or even had to use force against a human being in adulthood. Guess what? You start working up all sorts of rationales of how you will use deadly force to avoid being exposed to any force. It's not that cut and dry in a lot of situations...and the last thing you want is some crook seeing you try to draw down and actually have to defend himself from your excessive force (as determined at the civil suit). The bottom line is that a lot of jurisdictions view "death or serious physical injury" in a well matched fight as "possible, but not probable"... your fear may have been reasonable in your mind, but not objectively reasonable in the eyes of another citizen or expert witness.

beatcop
12-08-2011, 21:21
In my opinion and if i was in the jury i would consider the car as a potentially lethal weapon and the manner in which is was used an attempt at server bodily harm and or death. If the driver succeeded in wrecking your car it is very likely you would be harmed

In my State "following to close/intent to harass" is a misdemeanor. Generally...very generally...it's not a good idea to kill someone over a misdemeanor.

When the car is in motion and has not contacted your vehicle, the other guys actions will be disputed...you will have been threatened with force, but the fact that the guy hasn't actually struck you (after having many opportunities) may be seen as a lack of intent on his part.

If the car was imobilized from him striking you and you couldn't retreat with reasonable safety, sure if the guy came after you, I'd be more inclined to believe the guy was going to follow through with doing you harm. Force would become more reasonable. However, once the deadly weapon (car) is out of play you have to choose another force option...shooting an unarmed, verbal threat may not be reasonable in your area.

id1otbox
12-08-2011, 23:23
In my State "following to close/intent to harass" is a misdemeanor. Generally...very generally...it's not a good idea to kill someone over a misdemeanor.

When the car is in motion and has not contacted your vehicle, the other guys actions will be disputed...you will have been threatened with force, but the fact that the guy hasn't actually struck you (after having many opportunities) may be seen as a lack of intent on his part.

If the car was imobilized from him striking you and you couldn't retreat with reasonable safety, sure if the guy came after you, I'd be more inclined to believe the guy was going to follow through with doing you harm. Force would become more reasonable. However, once the deadly weapon (car) is out of play you have to choose another force option...shooting an unarmed, verbal threat may not be reasonable in your area.

I agree however i think our laws should be changed a bit. it should be considered more of a violent crime instead of a misdemeanor. I feel like most people down play how violent is actually is. The aggressive drivers actions could of resulted in a 20 car pile up killing many men women and children. They should not be let off so easy in IMO.

Lord
12-08-2011, 23:29
I agree however i think our laws should be changed a bit. it should be considered more of a violent crime instead of a misdemeanor. I feel like most people down play how violent is actually is. The aggressive drivers actions could of resulted in a 20 car pile up killing many men women and children. They should not be let off so easy in IMO.

I agree. I think with the new road rage laws, you may be right about the violent part.

VELO
12-09-2011, 12:47
To answer the OPs original question: I think you did pretty good. You got out of the situation unharmed and without damage to your vehicle. I echo the comments of others that you should have at least called 911 and put it on speaker so if things escalated there would be a recording of the incident.


Around the world, in a few months, 6 seperate incidents. You still have 10 times the chance of winning the lottery twice in a row, than being killed by a single punch.

What really matters is what will the jury think? I like escalation of force. 1 on 1, get away, if you are unable to get away then use the force appropriate to defend yourself. At any point you feel your life is in danger, including a weapon is shown, or you're losing considerably.. draw your firearm. You shoot a guy that's walking up to hit you with his fist and you will probably have a negative outcome in the court system.

If it's come to this, IMHO it's already too late.

ETA: I like what other posters have said about slowing waaaay down and turning on your 4way flashers.

Warp
12-09-2011, 14:45
bit of freeway i used to travel a lot had many cops patrol it that were very stringent about speed limits. so i kept very close to the limit. had a lot of people that wanted to drive 20+ over the limit flash their brights at me. had a 1.5 million candle power spot light in the back seat i flashed back at them.

How many lanes are there, which one are you in, and how fast are the rest of the cars going?

I've only seen this happen when people improperly use the passing lane.

I mention this because avoidance and deescalation are very important.

writwing
12-09-2011, 18:01
All the quoting of the laws is great; they are the source of the truth; however, it really comes down to a jury, and that jury is a slice of the people in the jurisdiction the event happened.

So your outcome could very well hinge on whether or not you have a pro-gun jury or an anti-gun jury - I'd think.



Absolutely 100% correct. Either you have been there or you know what really happens.

The the OP: what you did was 100% correct. You avoided further escalation.

Bruce M
12-09-2011, 19:26
...

5) If all the above fails and you can no longer keep your pursuer at bay, get your gun out and exit the vehicle.

..l.

At the point one exits the car in a traffic altercation , some might see that as escalation. My opinion is that in Florida someone who does this is stepping a bit closer to possibly being prosecuted. And that may cost a huge sum of money to defend.

Warp
12-09-2011, 19:33
At the point one exits the car in a traffic altercation , some might see that as escalation. My opinion is that in Florida someone who does this is stepping a bit closer to possibly being prosecuted. And that may cost a huge sum of money to defend.

I agree.

Getting out of your car to confront them...not what I would want to do or suggest doing.

Now, if they DID (not you said they did when lying to the police, as somebody suggested) threaten you with a firearm before disabling your vehicle AND you have others, such as children, in your vehicle with you THEN a more aggressive or pro active approach may be called for.

Bruce M
12-09-2011, 19:43
I don't know where you're from but any physical violence that I feel may cause bodily harm can be responded to with deadly force here in Florida. A beating is bodily injury. I'm not waiting until I'm about to pass out, I'm firing after the first punch.

I thought the statute read that a fear of great bodily harm is the threshhold for using deadly force. But I might be wrong. I might check with an attorney before I shot someone who had slapped me with an open hand. But I might be wrong and, heck, what's the worst that can happen?

RussP
12-09-2011, 21:27
I believe this topic has been adequately covered...