I tempted with fate and almost paid the price. [Archive] - Glock Talk

PDA

View Full Version : I tempted with fate and almost paid the price.


atakawow
12-08-2011, 13:53
Hello all,

I encountered an incident earlier today that I wish to share. Earlier this morning, I met up with another fella at the local shooting range to do a gun trade. The fella was nice enough to offer me a box of his own .45 colt reloads, no charge, to get me started with my newly acquired gun, said these are his Cowboy loads. The box is marked "6.2 gr Titegroup."

I was giddy as a school girl. I was alone at the range, with a newly acquired toy (Vaquero) in one hand, and a box of ammo in the other to boot. All too convenience, I thought. I ignored the cardinal rule and proceeded toward the shooting area with a box of unknown reloads. I loaded up my newly acquired Vaquero, cocked the hammer, and took aim. Now, at that moment, I couldn't say that it was an intervention from the above or what, but my senses came rushing back into my empty head. I immediately lowered the gun, lowered the hammer, removed the loaded rounds back into the box, and went home.

Once at home, I decided to pull some of those unknown reloads to verify the charge. I randomly selected 5 out of the 50 rounds. Keep in mind the box is marked "6.2 gr Titegroup." The very first round I pulled had a charge weighing in at 16.4 gr...I didn't have a .45 colt round, what I had was a mini explosive. I pulled the rest of the 49 remaining rounds. When done, out of the 50 pulled rounds, 24 of them had not a speck of powder in them. The only round that was weighted had nearly three times the intended powder charge.

I wish to clarify that there is no ill intent between myself and this fella. He is considered by the locals to be a very seasoned handloader as well as a very respected person among the local SASS. Mistakes do happen even among the most seasoned of us all.

I broke the rule. I made a huge mistake. I am thankful that it was prevented before any further incidents. I hope my mistake will serve as a reminder to all: be very cautious of unknown reloads.

Go slow and be safe. :wavey:

ATK.

* Update: I got a hold of the fella. He explained that he had some equipment difficulties a while back. This is what he has to say "...a piece of foam from a powder can gasket stuck in my powder measure..." He thought he had gotten rid of the bad batch but apparently he missed some.

F106 Fan
12-08-2011, 13:56
Good catch! Someone up there was looking out for you.

I am almost OCD about reloads. I don't even like shooting my own loads and I really don't like having my family shoot them.

Richard

rpgman
12-08-2011, 13:59
wow, that's a LOT of rounds to be missing powder and being over charged and he's an experienced loader???

Wonder if he's ever blown up any of his guns?

Steve Koski
12-08-2011, 14:04
WTF?

Sounds unbelievable. He would've killed himself off long ago.

GioaJack
12-08-2011, 14:07
Do you realize the priceless entertainment value you've cost us by not shooting those rounds and having someone video tape the action?

Once again you've displayed that you think of no one but yourself... we all know that you were raised better than that. :whistling:


Jack

Adjuster
12-08-2011, 14:10
That is crazy!!!

Bren
12-08-2011, 14:13
50% of the rounds he gave you were screwed up? I'm a rookie reloader and the most I've ever screwed up was 1 no-powder in a batch of about 1,000 that I turned out as quick as I could, for a class.

fredj338
12-08-2011, 14:24
Yeah, TG, my favorite! Add that to poor reloading technique & you are in Darwin's camp. Wise move listening to the little voice in the back of your head. I don't shoot other peoples reloads or sleep w/ prostitutes. No way of knowing what you are getting in either case.

Ahmid
12-08-2011, 14:25
Very strange story...:upeyes:

rpgman
12-08-2011, 14:26
by any chance, was this guys name Jack? :whistling:

Only kidding with ya GioaJack, since you kid with me. :supergrin:

atakawow
12-08-2011, 14:39
Yes, out of 50 rounds, 24 would-be squibs and, at the very least, one very, very overcharged round is disturbing.

I do not know this fella personally prior to the meet, but words of mouth from the local forum led me to believe in his expertise. Maybe that too was a mistake on my part.

About the validity of the story, the time/place might be slightly altered to protect the identity of the parties involved (GT WA members may know who the parties are). The results, however, are entirely correct.

EL_NinO619
12-08-2011, 15:04
WoW is all I can say, Merry Christmas, You just got your gift. And a Seasoned reloader Seasoned by a Gallon of his favorite liquor....WTH

DoctaGlockta
12-08-2011, 15:13
You really need to call that guy and tell him. I bet he has many others in the 'batch' that he loaded that session. You could save injury to him or others.

fx77
12-08-2011, 15:25
Gee that might have broken the gun, and ruined your whole day
Lucky U :)

XDRoX
12-08-2011, 15:50
Very strange story...:upeyes:

Yep, something fishy. He tried to hurt you if this story is true.

IndyGunFreak
12-08-2011, 16:08
Yep, something fishy. He tried to hurt you if this story is true.

I'd sure hope not.. but man. 16 grains of Titegroup? I'm not a TG guy, but I would have to think that would be very near the top of the case. That should have been a red flag to the loader.

Crazy.

HeliGlock
12-08-2011, 16:14
All I can say is WOW. You got your Gift like what was said above.

atakawow
12-08-2011, 16:21
Update: I got a hold of the fella. He explained that he had some equipment difficulties a while back. This is what he has to say "...a piece of foam from a powder can gasket stuck in my powder measure..." He thought he had gotten rid of the bad batch but apparently he missed some.

atakawow
12-08-2011, 16:23
Yep, something fishy. He tried to hurt you if this story is true.

It is a possibility, although I don't see a motive behind it. As stated, I've never met or spoke to the guy (except for the trade details) prior to the meet.

wuvmyglock
12-08-2011, 16:32
The so-called "equipment failure" was in the upright mechanism between his shoulders.. He had what one could call "Recto-cranial Impaction" AKA: Head up his arse..

Dalton Wayne
12-08-2011, 16:37
This is why I never ever shoot reloads, somebody from above was watching over you, thank god you didn't shoot any

IndyGunFreak
12-08-2011, 16:43
This is why I never ever shoot reloads, somebody from above was watching over you, thank god you didn't shoot any

I think the key is don't shoot SOMEONE ELSE's reloads.

Most of us here, are probably anal enough about our QC procedures, this is not an issue for us.

Steve Koski
12-08-2011, 17:37
Reloads are for SUCKAS!!!

bush pilot
12-08-2011, 18:11
Reloads are for SUCKAS!!!

I wouldn't shoot Koski's reloads on a bet. Are you still doing the telemarketing thing?

dla
12-08-2011, 18:15
This is why I never ever shoot reloads, somebody from above was watching over you, thank god you didn't shoot any

I knew one of the turkeys would cluck eventually.

DanaT
12-08-2011, 18:32
Actually the 6.4 to 16.4 is easy to do if you use a manual balance beam type scale. You can overlook the 10's mass from the 0 to the 10 position.

What I do to avoid this is use two reloading scales. I use a 10-10 because I like the accuracy. I use a digital scale to verify the 10-10 balance and then to spot check some rounds as I load. The digital scale seems to be +/- 0,5 grains in general.

I also periodically verify the balance is correct by measuring reference weighs (accurate to +/- 0.1mg... or +/- 0.0015 grains).

Having no powder is also easy to accomplish, especially when overloading rounds. Basically, powder ran out in a progressive and it wasn't noticed. I suspect that enough powder was loaded to do whatever quantity of rounds was needed but there wasn't enough powder because 3 times more was being used than planned.

To ensure my powder charges here is how I load:

0. Set my powder alarm to the charge I want. If there is an over/under charge the power alarm goes off. Keep in mind this is about 0.5 grains accuracy depending upon cartridge and powder. It says powder is "close."
1. Before I start, check powder charge with the first round through the press
2. Check round #6
3. Grab every 10th to 20th round. Measure powder.
4. Grab last round off the press. Measure powder.

Really, if the powder isn't being thrown correctly at any point the batch is scrapped unless I can identify a point where it was known good but that is hard unless cartridges are being placed in order of when they came off the press. I do a 100 or so then put them in a box. So typically, I have upto 100 rounds at risk.

So, if you do those steps, the chances of something changing in the middle is slim.

-Dana

EL_NinO619
12-08-2011, 19:51
This is why I never ever shoot reloads, somebody from above was watching over you, thank god you didn't shoot any

I like guys like you, So once your rich *** leaves the range, I rape and pillage your brass... Yes reloading is DANGEROUS, DO NOT DO IT GUYS...:whistling:

EL_NinO619
12-08-2011, 19:52
And over looking 10gr is not easy. Give me a break, a visual inspection of the powder on the scale would tell you something is wrong...

fredj338
12-08-2011, 23:24
And over looking 10gr is not easy. Give me a break, a visual inspection of the powder on the scale would tell you something is wrong...

Ah yes, but there is that whole TG in a really large case thing. I am not sure you can see the diff in 6gr or 16gr in a 45colt case, but then I have never wanted to go there. We all know, TG makes terrific fertilizer & it requires no discipline to spread it around.:tongueout:
Originally Posted by Dalton Wayne
This is why I never ever shoot reloads, somebody from above was watching over you, thank god you didn't shoot any
Maybe we should have a govt ban on reloading to protect us from ourselves?? Really, reloaded ammo is not unsafe, only bad relaoders.

AA#5
12-08-2011, 23:42
As a handloader for 30 years & never a problem, I'm suspicious about his explanation. That's way too many bad rounds in one batch - especially the ones without a powder charge.

Of course, I don't use a progressive & I'm able to see every powder charge before I seat bullets, but I still find it hard to believe him.

EL_NinO619
12-09-2011, 00:20
Ah yes, but there is that whole TG in a really large case thing. I am not sure you can see the diff in 6gr or 16gr in a 45colt case, but then I have never wanted to go there. We all know, TG makes terrific fertilizer & it requires no discipline to spread it around.:tongueout:

Maybe we should have a govt ban on reloading to protect us from ourselves?? Really, reloaded ammo is not unsafe, only bad relaoders.

I was not referring to inside the case, but to the post above me about beam scale and wrong placement. I am no seasoned Reloader but I can tell the difference between 6 and 16 grains visually.... And after reading about this seasoned reloader, I would like to stay a NEWB...:upeyes:

RCBS LOCK OUT DIE ANYONE....? Its not the end all safety step, but it would have helped in this case....

jellis11
12-09-2011, 00:22
Yep, something fishy. He tried to hurt you if this story is true.

i agree. That is some mega shady stuff going on there.

sourdough44
12-09-2011, 01:25
Rather crazy story there. I don't see how a guy could reload for more than a month & make such a 'mistake'. But you never know with some folks.

steve4102
12-09-2011, 01:53
Glad you are OK!
IMO, I don't believe he is a "seasoned expert" reloader. I think he is an expert in his own mind that takes to many things for granted. If it were me, or is it, if it were I, I would spread the word around your shooting range and let it's community know exactly how experience/seasoned this guy actually is. Might just save some a fellow shooter some serious injury. After all, the next guy may not have Angels watching over them as with you.

leeward419
12-09-2011, 02:35
According to the hodgdon site, titegroup charges for 45 colt range from 5.8 grains to 7.7. I am guessing if you are awake, and looking, you would see the difference between no powder and double the powder.
And if you are reloading you are looking.
The foam got caught in the powder measure doesnt exlain the double + charge.
This at best is sloppy and reckless

tobias boon
12-09-2011, 09:07
I reload my 45 colts one at a time. I know what is in every single one without a doubt.

fredj338
12-09-2011, 09:23
I was not referring to inside the case, but to the post above me about beam scale and wrong placement. I am no seasoned Reloader but I can tell the difference between 6 and 16 grains visually.... And after reading about this seasoned reloader, I would like to stay a NEWB...:upeyes:

RCBS LOCK OUT DIE ANYONE....? Its not the end all safety step, but it would have helped in this case....

Agree, if thrown into a pan, it's pretty obvious to anyone tha has loaded for more than a couple 100rds. If it was done once to set a powder measure up, just beyond my comprehension that you can mistake a 3x over charge.:dunno:

creophus
12-09-2011, 10:05
Yeah that's a serious problem. Glad you didn't drop the hammer on that round!

Seems like this guy had a 50% failure rate in that batch of ammo. Here's what I suspect.

1. He wasn't a seasoned reloader.
2. He didn't load those rounds.

I don't think the guy was trying to cause damage to the shooter or the gun, otherwise all those squib loads would be either normal or be overcharged as well.

16.4gr of Titegroup in a 45 Colt case would probably not be noticeably different from 6.2gr. I use Titegroup in a lot of cases, including some large ones, a little goes a LONG way. It's still a good powder, just don't add too much.

cqb451
12-09-2011, 11:02
No *&@#%! way.

Many moons ago (1982) I purchased a brand new Winchester 70 XTR chambered in 30.06. out of a shop in Boise, ID. (I lived there at the time).
Long story short - The gun shop owner gave me three dozen rounds of his reloaded ammo to try out. I trusted this guy.
On the 23rd round there was a case failure (separation).
Luckily I had always worn eye protection. The entire right side of my face (including the right lens) was pocked marked with powder burns.
The bolt was frozen solid. The safety plug did it's job.

The gun shop owner made good on damages and apologized for over a year whenever I bumped into him.

1982 was the first and last year I ever, repeat, ever shot ammunition if it wasn't made by yours truly or had a factory origin.

Of course I could go on about the CorBon ammo which split the barrel on my Colt Commander..........

Steve Koski
12-09-2011, 11:22
I wouldn't shoot Koski's reloads on a bet. Are you still doing the telemarketing thing?

Never stopped. I bring in $2,000 a month in my spare time. You can too answering inbound calls.

Hogpauls
12-09-2011, 12:00
Glad you are ok and that reason caught you at the best possible moment.

I like Titegroup and knowing it's history, I'm extra OCD about using it. Every 10th round gets thrown on the scale and even with that all rounds get visually inspected before bullet seating. 10 grs. would have been noticed visually as easy as no powder. Not inspecting 1 round out of 50 is just plain stupid using TG.

nam02G
12-09-2011, 13:35
As a handloader for 30 years & never a problem, I'm suspicious about his explanation. That's way too many bad rounds in one batch - especially the ones without a powder charge.

Of course, I don't use a progressive & I'm able to see every powder charge before I seat bullets, but I still find it hard to believe him.

Sadly it's not that hard to crank out a bunch of bad ammo on a progressive. I loaded up a batch of 1000 38 Super once upon a time for shooting in matches. I had complete confidence in my press and its features that I didn't pay nearly as much attention as I should to everything. By the time I finished pulling all those bullets, too poor (stingy) to just toss them, I had ~250 rounds that had little to no powder in them due to a broken powder measure. That was 14 years ago. I watch things like a hawk now when I load and have not loaded a single accidental squib in many many thousands of rounds since then. I've loaded a couple deliberately so that I can demonstrate to new shooters what a squib feels and sounds like.

PhantomF4E
12-09-2011, 14:19
Wow . What part of the OBSERVATION steps in reloading did this guy not follow. Mistakes happen but not that many. THat just flat gives all reloaders a bad name . Either the guy was stoned out of his mind, drunk , both , or had someone else distracting him. Any of the above during a reloading session ...We all know... If your not just a bit OCD you have no business reloading ammo. Go to Wally World and be as distracted as you want... Send that boy back to rock chucker class

DanaT
12-10-2011, 09:06
I was not referring to inside the case, but to the post above me about beam scale and wrong placement. I am no seasoned Reloader but I can tell the difference between 6 and 16 grains visually.... And after reading about this seasoned reloader, I would like to stay a NEWB...:upeyes:

RCBS LOCK OUT DIE ANYONE....? Its not the end all safety step, but it would have helped in this case....

That is very good that you can tell that. You can look at a powder and determine bulk density.

As an example, looking at volume, take AA7 and see how much fits into a 9mm case (around 8 grains). Now use clays. you won't fit more than 4 grains in it.

Yes you SHOULD see a 16 gr instead of 6 grains. But there are 3 race horses you never want to bet on: shoulda, coulda, and woulda.

Me I prefer to verify my measurements with two independant sources rather than rely on shoulda. It takes but a moment to make a mistake. The person who thinks that they won't make an error and they should see an error easily is the person who will make an error.

I treat reloading just as I do my job. I use objective evidence to determine is setup correctly before starting.

-Dana

dla
12-10-2011, 09:41
Sadly it's not that hard to crank out a bunch of bad ammo on a progressive..

That you used a progressive just shows that if somebody works at it - they can still screw it up. That was not the fault of the progressive. An auto-indexing progressive makes it very hard to screw up - but if you try hard enough it can be done.

AA#5
12-10-2011, 11:43
Sadly it's not that hard to crank out a bunch of bad ammo on a progressive. I loaded up a batch of 1000 38 Super once upon a time for shooting in matches. I had complete confidence in my press and its features that I didn't pay nearly as much attention as I should to everything. By the time I finished pulling all those bullets, too poor (stingy) to just toss them, I had ~250 rounds that had little to no powder in them due to a broken powder measure. That was 14 years ago. I watch things like a hawk now when I load and have not loaded a single accidental squib in many many thousands of rounds since then. I've loaded a couple deliberately so that I can demonstrate to new shooters what a squib feels and sounds like.

Do handloaders typically verify powder charges before seating/crimping when using a progressive? The videos I've seen indicate that they don't - they just rely on their equipment; something I'd never do. IMO, one of the problems with progressive loading is the focus on speed, which would preclude such caution.

thorn137
12-10-2011, 11:53
Do handloaders typically verify powder charges before seating/crimping when using a progressive?

Yep, I do. On 9mm, I look in every case before I put the bullet on top - and on the LNL, the shell position is up front and it's very easy to see in the case... i don't even need a light. For deeper cases - 44mag - when it's difficult to see all the way down in there, I use a powder cop die and carefully watch the rod raise and lower.

thorn

EL_NinO619
12-10-2011, 11:57
A progressive is easily adapted to in terms of speed. You start slow and look in every case. You verify your charge a couple times before running at speed. Once you are up and running and used to a progressive, Its just like everything in life, with experience comes speed. The videos you see is no one really showing setup time and verifying charges, seating etc. These steps have already been taken before running for a Youtube video. I do not know one reloader who just starts cranking out ammo without verifying all steps, even on a progressive like Dillon where nothing changes from Caliber changeover.. This guy was reckless to say the least. Like I said earlier, he was seasoned alright, seasoned on a Gallon of his favorite adult beverage.

PsychoKnight
12-10-2011, 17:35
1. Foam: You're pouring powder into a measure and you can't see a chunk of foam fall in, about 14in from your eyeballs? I never used TG, but wouldn't that be a 3" disc, bright white?

2. Manually placing a bullet over an empty case? Going too fast to even look inside, watch the powder cop, or setup up a lock-out die properly? Then he shouldn't be using a progressive, or any press for that matter. Plus, we don't know the loader was using a progressive, but it doesn't matter. Equip failure doesn't affect one's ability to do a pre-seat, powder check.

Bullet feeders: I don't think these are safe for anyone except those who are both highly experienced and methodical in their reloading practices - particularly bad for those who drink a lot of high grade whisky while loading, or have annoying wives.

WiskyT
12-10-2011, 18:32
1. Foam: You're pouring powder into a measure and you can't see a chunk of foam fall in, about 14in from your eyeballs? I never used TG, but wouldn't that be a 3" disc, bright white?

Right, like you've never had a piece of pizza accidently fall in your powder hopper:upeyes:

2. Manually placing a bullet over an empty case? Going too fast to even look inside, watch the powder cop, or setup up a lock-out die properly? Then he shouldn't be using a progressive, or any press for that matter. Plus, we don't know the loader was using a progressive, but it doesn't matter. Equip failure doesn't affect one's ability to do a pre-seat, powder check.

Bullet feeders: I don't think these are safe for anyone except those who are both highly experienced and methodical in their reloading practices - particularly bad for those who drink a lot of high grade whisky while loading, or have annoying wives.-That is reduntant.

.....

dougader
12-10-2011, 22:01
Imagine now if you shot a squib load first, and the 16.4 grain load came next with a bullet stuck in the barrel.

Wow. I've heard of bad reloads, but this takes the cake.

fredj338
12-10-2011, 22:24
Do handloaders typically verify powder charges before seating/crimping when using a progressive? The videos I've seen indicate that they don't - they just rely on their equipment; something I'd never do. IMO, one of the problems with progressive loading is the focus on speed, which would preclude such caution.

The lazy ones rely on their gear, the smart ones will visually verify too. There is a lot mor eto reloading safe, reliable ammo than pulling a handle. Unfortunately, many think that is all there is to reloading.:whistling:

PCJim
12-12-2011, 21:34
As an example of how serious I am about shooting ammo with questionable origins....

I just picked up a Rem 700 yesterday and as I was finishing up the purchase, the seller handed me 40 rds of ammo. One sleeve he said was factory, the other was some B-Tip that his friend had loaded for him and with which he had taken an elk last year. I thanked him for the rounds, and casually advised him that I would pull them and use the bullets with my own powder charges.

Even though he stated that one sleeve was factory (no factory box, just the sleeve with the loaded rounds), the fact that he stated he had been shooting reloads makes me wonder whether there was any possiblity of his having mixed them up with other reloads.

Best to be safe than sorry.

creophus
12-13-2011, 07:14
As an example of how serious I am about shooting ammo with questionable origins....

I just picked up a Rem 700 yesterday and as I was finishing up the purchase, the seller handed me 40 rds of ammo. One sleeve he said was factory, the other was some B-Tip that his friend had loaded for him and with which he had taken an elk last year. I thanked him for the rounds, and casually advised him that I would pull them and use the bullets with my own powder charges.

Even though he stated that one sleeve was factory (no factory box, just the sleeve with the loaded rounds), the fact that he stated he had been shooting reloads makes me wonder whether there was any possiblity of his having mixed them up with other reloads.

Best to be safe than sorry.

Very true. I bought a lot of reloading stuff and there was loaded ammo in the lot, I continue to pull bullets from cases as I won't shoot those loads. Some he said were "safe" others were not.

No sense in gambling on it.

WiskyT
12-13-2011, 16:39
As an example of how serious I am about shooting ammo with questionable origins....

I just picked up a Rem 700 yesterday and as I was finishing up the purchase, the seller handed me 40 rds of ammo. One sleeve he said was factory, the other was some B-Tip that his friend had loaded for him and with which he had taken an elk last year. I thanked him for the rounds, and casually advised him that I would pull them and use the bullets with my own powder charges.

Even though he stated that one sleeve was factory (no factory box, just the sleeve with the loaded rounds), the fact that he stated he had been shooting reloads makes me wonder whether there was any possiblity of his having mixed them up with other reloads.

Best to be safe than sorry.


Get a divorce and let your ex-wife shoot them.




Jack
__________________
Life is a little bit tragic but mostly magic... Learn to deal with the tragic and CHERISH THE MAGIC

A PACIFIST is someone who won't raise their hands to defend themselves...
A COWARD is someone who won't raise their hands to defend someone else.

federali
12-14-2011, 17:52
A double charge should have weighed 12.4 grains. I'm not sure how foreign matter in the system allowed nearly a triple charge.

One danger with progressive presses is to become pre-occupied with a problem, most often at the sizing, primer seating station, and fail to notice you have now thrown a double charge at the loading station.

I follow a stringent reloading technique: any difficulty at all on the first station and I pull the shell from the charging station until I can resolve whatever is not working right. Most times I will then finish loading whatever remains on the shell holder, then start all over again to re-establish my rhythm. I also LOOK INTO EACH AND EVERY SHELL as it leaves station two (four-station press) and before placing a bullet into the mouth at station three.

I shoot on a police range and pick up lots of loaded rounds dropped and forgotten. Any round that even remotely looks reloaded gets tossed.

creophus
12-15-2011, 11:23
I'll bet a Press Monitor would have prevented this.

JuneyBooney
12-15-2011, 11:29
Good catch! Someone up there was looking out for you.

I am almost OCD about reloads. I don't even like shooting my own loads and I really don't like having my family shoot them.

Richard

I hope you got down and "Tebowed".:cool:

fredj338
12-15-2011, 11:52
I'll bet a Press Monitor would have prevented this.

Maybe, maybe not. The more you automate the machine, the lazier the reloader becomes & a loose wire or faulty piece of gear & you are making unsafe reloads. It really only requrise one pay attention to what is going on & not just pull the handle.:dunno:

PCJim
12-16-2011, 16:22
Maybe, maybe not. The more you automate the machine, the lazier the reloader becomes & a loose wire or faulty piece of gear & you are making unsafe reloads. It really only requrise one pay attention to what is going on & not just pull the handle.:dunno:

I agree 100%

WiskyT
12-16-2011, 17:21
Maybe, maybe not. The more you automate the machine, the lazier the reloader becomes & a loose wire or faulty piece of gear & you are making unsafe reloads. It really only requrise one pay attention to what is going on & not just pull the handle.:dunno:

Nothing scares me more than a soccer mom and an SUV with a back-up camera.

sns3guppy
01-11-2012, 23:18
Late in the thread, but I don't use progressive; I single load, and do everything on a loading block. I lay out 50 rounds at a time, and weigh every 10th round, check each one visually, spot check where I feel necessary and visually verify each before seating the bullet. I also check each cartridge for overall case length.

It's a slower process, and won't come remotely close to the speed or volume of progressive loading but I know what I've got and I feel like I get much more consistent cartridges.

ron59
01-12-2012, 07:14
Late in the thread, but I don't use progressive; I single load, and do everything on a loading block. I lay out 50 rounds at a time, and weigh every 10th round, check each one visually, spot check where I feel necessary and visually verify each before seating the bullet. I also check each cartridge for overall case length.

It's a slower process, and won't come remotely close to the speed or volume of progressive loading but I know what I've got and I feel like I get much more consistent cartridges.

I load with a progressive and "know what I got". 40,000 plus rounds in 2.5 years, and not the first double charge or squib.

My powder drop is VERY consistent, I'm *positive* that my cartridges are consistent. Enjoy the hours you spend making ammo, I'll make 100 in 6.5 minutes and be at the range.

Not trying to be snippy, but the way I read your post, it's like you're bragging about your "well made" ammo or something. Ummmmm, no. Not any better than my pistol ammo.

rpgman
01-12-2012, 07:19
I load with a progressive and "know what I got". 40,000 plus rounds in 2.5 years, and not the first double charge or squib.

My powder drop is VERY consistent, I'm *positive* that my cartridges are consistent. Enjoy the hours you spend making ammo, I'll make 100 in 6.5 minutes and be at the range.

Ditto, how true.

blueorb
01-12-2012, 07:36
This is why I never ever shoot reloads, somebody from above was watching over you, thank god you didn't shoot any

You are like a one trick harbinger of death. You must browse the reloading forum waiting on a thread with even a hint of negativity towards reloading and you pounce.

Edit to add......crap, just realized how old this thread is.

SigFTW
01-12-2012, 08:01
lol, this is an old thread however, I like these little reminders and cautions people post, helps me stay sharp. Sometimes I get too comfortable (I wouldn’t say laxed) with my reloading and like a little reminder.

Glad to see the wisdom of the OP.

fredj338
01-12-2012, 09:36
I load with a progressive and "know what I got". 40,000 plus rounds in 2.5 years, and not the first double charge or squib.

My powder drop is VERY consistent, I'm *positive* that my cartridges are consistent. Enjoy the hours you spend making ammo, I'll make 100 in 6.5 minutes and be at the range.

Not trying to be snippy, but the way I read your post, it's like you're bragging about your "well made" ammo or something. Ummmmm, no. Not any better than my pistol ammo.

No, I didn't read it that way. I read it as he is old school, afraid of the progressive machines & feels safer loading his way. I have no issue w/ that. I've heard the BS for years about how ammo off a progressive is never as accurate as ammo off a ss press. Pure BS, since ALL factory ammo is made on some sort of progressive machine. One can easily veryify all powder drops visually on a progressive. Measuring every round for OAL is just a waste of time IMO, if the dies are right, the ammo will be right. A variation of 0.01" in OAL isn't affecting anything anyway.:dunno:

sns3guppy
01-12-2012, 10:14
Not trying to be snippy, but the way I read your post, it's like you're bragging about your "well made" ammo or something. Ummmmm, no. Not any better than my pistol ammo.

I said no such thing. I didn't discuss anyone else's loading technique or practice, and couldn't care less.

I didn't brag, and made no claims about well made ammunition. I'm not selling it, giving it away, or advertising it, and have no pride invested in it I reload for economy and sometimes, for fun.

I discussed what I do. I don't expect anyone else to load or not load because I do it that way.

I don't reload for you, and wouldn't use your reloads. I use my own. It's great that you'll be gone in six minutes; enjoy your life, enjoy your shooting. Be happy. I don't care.

I was quite specific to discuss only my own practice. That I'm careful and do what I feel best apparently offends you or threatens you in some way, and that's unfortunate. It won't change the way I do business, however, nor do I particularly care.

I'm not afraid of a progressive machine, nor practices. I don't own one. I've thought about it, but never bothered. I'm content doing what I do, the way I do it, and the way I do most things. Very, very carefully, with a lot of checking and verification each step of the way. If you don't do this, fine. Do whatever you do. I didn't invoke you, discuss you, refer to you, or attempt to address your practices. Do what you like. Allow me the same courtesy, shall you?

Measuring every round for OAL is just a waste of time IMO, if the dies are right, the ammo will be right. A variation of 0.01" in OAL isn't affecting anything anyway.

Like many, especially on handgun cartridges, I full-length resize. Never the less, even using good dies and eyeballing every case, I've seen bullets set too far back with the die before, because of lack of case tension, perhaps a bullet imperfection, etc. I've seen them come out of the die like that once in a while, and I've seen some that could nearly be pushed back with finger pressure once loaded. A round like that in something that's already pushing industry case pressure standards such as a .40s&w could have very unfortunate results if set back during firing. I've seen this happen.

Checking each round for length, I also test the bullet tension non-scientifically by pushing on it gently and trying to rotate it. I've sometimes found some that would rotate, and again, some that pushed right back into the case, even though every other round that came through the dies was just fine.

I also clean primer pockets and check the brass for length, as this is worthwhile, in my opinion, and gives me an additional look at each case. I'm not firing 10,000 rounds a session, it's not my priority. I'm not Rob Leatham. I never will be. I'm not building up am ammo dump in preparation for armageddon. I reload because it's more cost effective, sometimes enjoyable, and I get to control what I'm shooting and can adjust a load for a particular firearm if I like.

Hopefully that doesn't offend too many more people, because I have no plans to change my practices any time in the near future.

ron59
01-12-2012, 10:45
I said no such thing. I didn't discuss anyone else's loading technique or practice, and couldn't care less.

I didn't brag, and made no claims about well made ammunition. I'm not selling it, giving it away, or advertising it, and have no pride invested in it I reload for economy and sometimes, for fun.

I discussed what I do. I don't expect anyone else to load or not load because I do it that way.

I don't reload for you, and wouldn't use your reloads. I use my own. It's great that you'll be gone in six minutes; enjoy your life, enjoy your shooting. Be happy. I don't care.

I was quite specific to discuss only my own practice. That I'm careful and do what I feel best apparently offends you or threatens you in some way, and that's unfortunate. It won't change the way I do business, however, nor do I particularly care.

I'm not afraid of a progressive machine, nor practices. I don't own one. I've thought about it, but never bothered. I'm content doing what I do, the way I do it, and the way I do most things. Very, very carefully, with a lot of checking and verification each step of the way. If you don't do this, fine. Do whatever you do. I didn't invoke you, discuss you, refer to you, or attempt to address your practices. Do what you like. Allow me the same courtesy, shall you?



Like many, especially on handgun cartridges, I full-length resize. Never the less, even using good dies and eyeballing every case, I've seen bullets set too far back with the die before, because of lack of case tension, perhaps a bullet imperfection, etc. I've seen them come out of the die like that once in a while, and I've seen some that could nearly be pushed back with finger pressure once loaded. A round like that in something that's already pushing industry case pressure standards such as a .40s&w could have very unfortunate results if set back during firing. I've seen this happen.

Checking each round for length, I also test the bullet tension non-scientifically by pushing on it gently and trying to rotate it. I've sometimes found some that would rotate, and again, some that pushed right back into the case, even though every other round that came through the dies was just fine.

I also clean primer pockets and check the brass for length, as this is worthwhile, in my opinion, and gives me an additional look at each case. I'm not firing 10,000 rounds a session, it's not my priority. I'm not Rob Leatham. I never will be. I'm not building up am ammo dump in preparation for armageddon. I reload because it's more cost effective, sometimes enjoyable, and I get to control what I'm shooting and can adjust a load for a particular firearm if I like.

Hopefully that doesn't offend too many more people, because I have no plans to change my practices any time in the near future.

Somebody got their panties in a bunch, huh.

You DID say: "More consistent cartridges". Compared against what? Somebody not doing it via a SS and your process? That is what I took umbrance to. You have no idea if yours is "more consistent" than mine, or Fred's, or anybody else using a progressive.

You hand measure and inspect each and every round? You must have a LOT of time on your hands. I shoot between 250 and 600 rounds any given WEEK. I do case gauge every one of those rounds, but I certainly don't try to spin the bullet in the case, or try to push it back, and certainly don't caliper each and every one. I would hardly have enough time to go to work trying to do that.
Cleaning primer pockets on pistol ammo?
Checking pistol brass for length? I'm assuming you're talking about NON-bottleneck cases (as the .357 SIG is) but stuff like 9mm and .45ACP?
This is not a touch of overkill, this is near OCD.

Hey, whatever works for you. I reload to go shoot, not while away the hours.

Lastly... you said "you didn't invoke me, refer to me, etc, etc".

Dude, you posted in this forum. You made statements that inferred certain things. Don't get your panties in a bunch when someone responds to your statements, it's gonna happen.

Alcoy
01-12-2012, 10:48
somebody is watching over you. be blessed.

labdwakin
01-12-2012, 11:11
This is why I never ever shoot reloads, somebody from above was watching over you, thank god you didn't shoot any


I would be willing to bet a small fortune that one of the two following statements is absolutely true:

1. You have shot reloads before but didn't know it.

2. You operate under the mistaken impression that just because a corporation has been making ammunition for years they HAVE to be perfect at it.


This portion of this forum is for people that enjoy reloading their own ammunition and we all strive to do so sensibly and safely. If you have to be a Troll and try to incite negativity on this forum, please do so elsewhere. Your needless pessimism and faux-superiority are neither wanted or needed here. I have watched you make these inane and grossly ignorant comments for months and finally had to say something.

EFF YOU VERY MUCH, HAVE A NICE DAY

SigFTW
01-12-2012, 12:49
2. You operate under the mistaken impression that just because a corporation has been making ammunition for years they HAVE to be perfect at it.

Good point labdwakin. I had one factory round come apart in my NEW Kimber causing a very small balloon at the end of the barrel and locking it out of battery. After checking the gun I looked for the brass and found it in several pieces on the bench. I had to grind the ballooned area to remove the barrel.

The short story, Ammo factory replaced my barrel for free, checked the remaining rounds and sent me a new box of ammo (250round).

fredj338
01-12-2012, 13:32
I'm not afraid of a progressive machine, nor practices. I don't own one. I've thought about it, but never bothered. I'm content doing what I do, the way I do it, and the way I do most things. Very, very carefully, with a lot of checking and verification each step of the way. If you don't do this, fine. Do whatever you do. I didn't invoke you, discuss you, refer to you, or attempt to address your practices. Do what you like. Allow me the same courtesy, shall you?
.

IMO, with all do respect, you just have no idea what you are talking about. Nothing wrong laoding on a ss press, I have loaded 1000s of pistol rounds on a ss press & 10s of 1000s on a progressive or two. Your QC is no diff from one to the other or shouldn't be. I can "feel" a bullet seating that will have poor neck tension. If the dies are set correctly, the neck tension should be the same every time. The oddball round should betray itself on seating, IF you pay attention.
So while I do check all my rounds for OAL, all you have to do is box them nose down & look for the odd one, or case gage my match ammo & you will easily see any out of spec round. Your original statement implies progressive machines make lesser quality ammo & that just isn't true. The guy pulling the handle makes lesser quality ammo. Proper technique is the key, regardless of the press system used. The issue w/ progressives is it allows for reloaders to be lazy & just pull the handle.

rpgman
01-12-2012, 13:51
Your original statement implies progressive machines make lesser quality ammo & that just isn't true.

Bingo, that's the issue I had with his first statement.

This one:

"It's a slower process, and won't come remotely close to the speed or volume of progressive loading but I know what I've got and I feel like I get much more consistent cartridges."

sns3guppy
01-12-2012, 14:16
IMO, with all do respect, you just have no idea what you are talking about.

I have a perfect idea what I'm talking about. I'm talking about my own preferences. I prefer to do it the way I do. I've said nothing about one method being superior to another. This is an inference that you have invented; put words in your own mouth, not mine. Your words are inaccurate, and incorrect. How you do it is up to you, and entirely meaningless and irrelevant to me, as I don't reload for you. I reload for me.

Your QC is no diff from one to the other or shouldn't be.

I never said it was, or is.

My quality control is what it is because I pay close attention to what I do. I choose to do my loading on a single stage press, that's all, and that's all I stated. I made no statement about one being better than the other.

I choose to use an open loading block, to visually compare all 50 rounds I load at once, weigh every 10th one, and spot check, dump, and reweigh others sporadically throughout the block. Again, my choice.

Your original statement implies progressive machines make lesser quality ammo & that just isn't true.

That is a lie. I made no such statement.

You made that statement. I just quoted you.

The issue w/ progressives is it allows for reloaders to be lazy & just pull the handle.

Yes, it does, and such individuals who allow themselves to be complacent may be so using a progressive loader, or a single stage loading system.

You have no idea if yours is "more consistent" than mine, or Fred's, or anybody else using a progressive.

No I don't, and I made no such comparison, nor do I care.

I can make more consistent loads using indivual care and attention to every cartridge, visually checking the powder level, weighing each charge, and handling every cartridge on it's own, trimming each and prepping and finishing and checking each, than I can do in a progressive loader. What you can do is irrelevant to me. I don't load for you, I won't be using your reloads. Are you threatened by this concept, or do you simply not understand it? I said nothing about you. You seem particularly sensitive to your own assumptions, in all absence of fact.

Try reading less into what you read. Assumptions are always a bad idea.

You hand measure and inspect each and every round?

Yes, I do. Every one.

You must have a LOT of time on your hands.

I do not. I have very limited time. Much of my time, for extended periods, is spend abroad, outside the country. My time in the US at home is limited, and has value. How I choose to spend that time, of course, is none of your concern.

I shoot between 250 and 600 rounds any given WEEK. I do case gauge every one of those rounds, but I certainly don't try to spin the bullet in the case, or try to push it back, and certainly don't caliper each and every one. I would hardly have enough time to go to work trying to do that.

How very nice for you. You do what works for you, and that's nice. You'll notice that I'm not whining about the way you do what works for you. Why are you so concerned about what I do? I didn't ask your permission, don't need it, don't want it. Don't care if you give it, you see.

Cleaning primer pockets on pistol ammo?

Of course.

Checking pistol brass for length? I'm assuming you're talking about NON-bottleneck cases (as the .357 SIG is) but stuff like 9mm and .45ACP?

Yes, I do. Case length, especially with different brass, varies; this can affect crimp and trim, and can in turn affect setback and cartridge pressure. It's also the reason that not every case comes out of the die the same, and not every finished cartridge comes out of the die the same.

Again, you don't do it, and that's fine. Nobody asked you to, least of all me. I made no reference to you. I didn't refer to your loading practices, didn't refer to your habits, and didn't reference you at all in my post. Until you replied, full of offense and on your high horse, I'd never heard of you. My feels won't be hurt if I don't hear from you again, either. You could simply post on topic, addressing the thread, rather than having little better to do than attack another poster who did nothing more than describe his own practices.

You've made a lot of assumptions, haven't you? Thus far, they're all wrong. You can stop assuming now, and mind your own business.

Dude, you posted in this forum.

You noticed? Sheer genius.

You made statements that inferred certain things.

No, I didn't. You made replies based on assumptions you made. In fact, I didn't make any of the statements you think were made. The one making these statements and inferences is YOU.

ron59
01-12-2012, 15:26
I have a perfect idea what I'm talking about. I'm talking about my own preferences.

blah blah blah and a bunch of other drivel I didn't wanna quote.


The word "implied" means... while you might not have said something outright, people take it that way.

We have at least 3 people who think you implied something you're stating you didn't. See... it works like this: YOU don't get to say what your sentence implies. The readers do. Maybe you should learn to communicate better.

AND you're being a HUGE jerk. I've never seen you "in here". You're not really making yourself very welcome.

Ah... I see how to fix this (click on the thumbnail to find the fix):

fredj338
01-12-2012, 15:28
I have a perfect idea what I'm talking about. I'm talking about my own preferences. I prefer to do it the way I do. I've said nothing about one method being superior to another. This is an inference that you have invented; put words in your own mouth, not mine. Your words are inaccurate, and incorrect. How you do it is up to you, and entirely meaningless and irrelevant to me, as I don't reload for you. I reload for me.
I never said it was, or is.
.

Well you did say "you feel" so that really is not a definitive statement.
It's a slower process, and won't come remotely close to the speed or volume of progressive loading but I know what I've got and I feel like I get much more consistent cartridges.
So while saying "you have no idea what you are talking about" is a bit out of line, sorry about that. What you do NOT have though is a valid point of ref for QC on a progressive, since you have never reloaded on one. You can "feel" anything you want, doesn't make it valid. reloading is a pretty exact science, so feelings shouldn't really play into results. Opinons are always welcome & the internet sometimes loses something in the translation, try not to take it personal..:wavey:

Roughedgekid
01-12-2012, 16:49
I belive Stevey Wonder could have loaded them better than that.

kcbrown
01-12-2012, 17:54
Get a divorce and let your ex-wife shoot them.


No, no, that's doing it all wrong.

You let your wife shoot them first, and then you get a divorce, posthumously, after you collect on that million dollar insurance policy you convinced her to sign (she thought she was signing the form you have to sign after winning one of those sweepstakes).


:supergrin:

Colorado4Wheel
01-12-2012, 18:00
Wow....

sns3guppy
01-14-2012, 16:08
I've never seen you "in here". You're not really making yourself very welcome.

You say that as though I should care.

I don't.