Carrying close to school zone? [Archive] - Glock Talk

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TheFireArmorer
12-08-2011, 18:04
I live in Nashville, Indiana which is a fairly popular tourist town. It is a small place with many unique touristy shops. In this town there are 3 schools and the school property is within a 1000 feet of the main streets. The gas station I normally go to is directly outside of the school property.

I have my carry permit and carry everyday. What I've been wondering is whether or not it is permissible to be in possession of a firearm that close to school property. I need to go to Town Hall and ask an officer, but in the meantime I wanted to ask what you guys think.

The way the town is set up it's almost impossible not be close to school property while traveling through.

TexanRon
12-08-2011, 18:12
I live in Nashville, Indiana which is a fairly popular tourist town. It is a small place with many unique touristy shops. In this town there are 3 schools and the school property is within a 1000 feet of the main streets. The gas station I normally go to is directly outside of the school property.

I have my carry permit and carry everyday. What I've been wondering is whether or not it is permissible to be in possession of a firearm that close to school property. I need to go to Town Hall and ask an officer, but in the meantime I wanted to ask what you guys think.

The way the town is set up it's almost impossible not be close to school property while traveling through.

Can only speak for Texas, but, driving through a schoolzone is no problem, i.e., going from point "A" to "B", without stopping. It is the being on the school property that is prohibited. YMMV.

ViennaGambit
12-08-2011, 18:17
Honestly, I think it will come down to the officer...

I know here in AZ, TECHNICALLY you cannot be within 1,000 feet which includes driving by - schools are everywhere so it is almost impossible to drive through the valley and not be in violation every few miles...

This is a major argument for getting your CCW in AZ as it allows, you just cannot carry on school property.

xmanhockey7
12-08-2011, 18:18
I live in Nashville, Indiana which is a fairly popular tourist town. It is a small place with many unique touristy shops. In this town there are 3 schools and the school property is within a 1000 feet of the main streets. The gas station I normally go to is directly outside of the school property.

I have my carry permit and carry everyday. What I've been wondering is whether or not it is permissible to be in possession of a firearm that close to school property. I need to go to Town Hall and ask an officer, but in the meantime I wanted to ask what you guys think.

The way the town is set up it's almost impossible not be close to school property while traveling through.

No. The only law that would even come into play is the Gun Free School Zone Act (GFSZA) of 1995. But since you have a carry permit issued by the state of Indiana and you had to go a background check to get the permit you are exempt from the GFSZA. Now if you drive north to any other state every time you come within 1,000 feet of a school you are violating federal law unless you have a licensed issued by the state your in.
(ii) if the individual possessing the firearm is licensed to do so by the State in which the school zone is located or a political subdivision of the State, and the law of the State or political subdivision requires that, before an individual obtains such a license, the law enforcement authorities of the State or political subdivision verify that the individual is qualified under law to receive the license;

Leigh
12-08-2011, 18:21
Can only speak for Texas, but, driving through a schoolzone is no problem, i.e., going from point "A" to "B", without stopping. It is the being on the school property that is prohibited. YMMV.

What Ron said, and please check your OWN state's law.

In Kentucky, I can legally drop off little Johnny at school while CCW as long as I remain INSIDE my vehicle and do not brandish said weapon.

However, one step OUTSIDE of my vehicle (while ON school property) and armed, I have broken the law.

EAJuggalo
12-08-2011, 18:48
xman, will you post where it specifies that out of state permits are not included in the exception to the GFSZA? My understanding as well as more than a few lawyers is that if you can legally carry in the locality you are in that you are not under the jurisdiction of the GFSZA.

OP, you are fine as long as you have a valid Indiana License. I would still check the Indiana Code because it may list that the property is fine as well, just not in the building.

xmanhockey7
12-08-2011, 19:05
xman, will you post where it specifies that out of state permits are not included in the exception to the GFSZA? My understanding as well as more than a few lawyers is that if you can legally carry in the locality you are in that you are not under the jurisdiction of the GFSZA.

OP, you are fine as long as you have a valid Indiana License. I would still check the Indiana Code because it may list that the property is fine as well, just not in the building.

This is from the BATFE when someone inquired about whether if a state honors a permit you have if that exempts you from the GFSZA. This is the reply he got.

http://www.handgunlaw.us/documents/batf_school_zone.pdf
This is in responae to your letter regarding the Gun-Free School Zones Act. You are a Virginia resident, and you have a Virginia concealed weapons permit. You also have nonresident concealed weapons permits issued by several other States. Your letter asked about an exception to the general ban on possession of firearms in school zones. Specifically, you inquire, "if the State honors another state permit by legal agreement, is that considered the same as issuing it themselves for the purposes of the GFSZA?"

As you know, the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms enforces the provisions of the Gun Control Act of 1968, including the Gun-Free School Zones Act, 18 V.S.C. § 922(q). The Gun-Free School Zones Act provides that it is unlawful for any individual to knowingly possess or discharge a firearm in a place that the individual knows or has reasonable cause to believe is a school zone, if the firearm has moved in or otherwise affects interstate or
foreign commerce. A school zone is defined to include any place in, or on the grounds of, a public, parochial, or private elementary or secondary school, or within 1,000 feet of the school grounds.
The law provides certain exceptions to the general ban on possession of firearms in school zones. One exception is where the individual possessing the firearm "is licensed to do so by the State in which the school zone is located or a political subdivision of the State. . ." See
18 D.S.C. § 922(q)(2)(B)(ii). A license qualifies as an exception only if the law of the State or political subdivision requires law enforcement authorities to verify
that the individual is qualified under law to receive the license.
The law clearly provides that in order to qualify as an exception to the general prohibitions of the Gun-Free School Zones Act, the license must be issued by the State in which the school zone is located or a political subdivision of that State. A concealed weapons license or permit from any otper State would not satisfy the criteria set forth in the law.
For purposes of the GFSZA, in order to fall within this limited exception, the permit must be issued by the State itself. Accordingly, your possession of a Virginia concealed weapons permit would not exempt you from the prohibitions of the Gun-Free School Zones Act in States that honor other State permits by legal agreement.
please let me know if you have any.further questions. Sincerely yours,
~~
Gary L. Thomas Chief, Firearms Programs Division

If you read the exemption to the law it is fairly clear that you must a permit issued by the state which the school zone is in. So a non-resident Utah permit would only cover you in Utah.
(ii) if the individual possessing the firearm is licensed to do so by the State in which the school zone is located or a political subdivision of the State, and the law of the State or political subdivision requires that, before an individual obtains such a license, the law enforcement authorities of the State or political subdivision verify that the individual is qualified under law to receive the license;

EAJuggalo
12-08-2011, 19:07
I saw your post about it and replied in the other thread.

xmanhockey7
12-08-2011, 19:11
I saw your post about it and replied in the other thread.

I saw your post in the other thread and I replied :). Wanna just talk about it here to simplify it? haha

EAJuggalo
12-08-2011, 19:18
I have to trust the cop, he's family. I've also got a few feelers out to some others who would have an idea what the reality of it is. My guess is it's one of those things that they throw at you when they're piling on federal charges. I'd also be curious since it's never been decided at the appellate level or above how that would fair.

Merkavaboy
12-08-2011, 19:25
CA permit holders are exempt from any Gun Free School Zones. We can even carry on school grounds K-12 and colleges/universities.

xmanhockey7
12-08-2011, 19:31
CA permit holders are exempt from any Gun Free School Zones. We can even carry on school grounds K-12 and colleges/universities.

Yeah I hear if you're able to get a CA permit some of the laws really aren't that bad.

xmanhockey7
12-08-2011, 19:41
I should also point that, according to the law, you must knowingly be within 1,000 feet of a school. So that does give you some wiggle room. (2)(A) It shall be unlawful for any individual knowingly to possess a firearm that has moved in or that otherwise affects interstate or foreign commerce at a place that the individual knows, or has reasonable cause to believe, is a school zone.

Warp
12-08-2011, 20:55
Yeah I hear if you're able to get a CA permit some of the laws really aren't that bad.

That is the cruel catch of may issue. Since they can (and often do) say NO to a lot of people for no reason at all (simply because said applicant is not politically connected, rich or famous) the off limits locations list is pretty short. They wouldn't want to put all of those silly burdons on the elite few who can get a license

Lord
12-08-2011, 23:57
In TX you can carry in a school zone, near a school zone and what have you. there is no restriction of a school "zone". You can even park in a school parking lot, and leave the gun in the car and go into the school. the only place prohibited, is on the "premises" of the school... buildings etc. This was done to allow for parents who carry, to be able to drop kids off and pick them up, or attend school events without having to park down the street to do so.

That "within the 1000 feet" thing is a bit ridiculous. I know of many residences and other places that are well within 1000 ft of schools etc, and with the sheer number of schools in some areas (K-12) you'd be in a constant state of breaking the law.

xmanhockey7
12-09-2011, 06:59
In TX you can carry in a school zone, near a school zone and what have you. there is no restriction of a school "zone". You can even park in a school parking lot, and leave the gun in the car and go into the school. the only place prohibited, is on the "premises" of the school... buildings etc. This was done to allow for parents who carry, to be able to drop kids off and pick them up, or attend school events without having to park down the street to do so.

That "within the 1000 feet" thing is a bit ridiculous. I know of many residences and other places that are well within 1000 ft of schools etc, and with the sheer number of schools in some areas (K-12) you'd be in a constant state of breaking the law.

It is ridiculous just like all other gun control laws. There are other exemptions than the one I have shown. One is for private property. (i) on private property not part of school grounds; Here are the other exemptions (not including the one for CCW holders):
(iii) that is— (I) not loaded; and (II) in a locked container, or a locked firearms rack that is on a motor vehicle;
(iv) by an individual for use in a program approved by a school in the school zone;
(v) by an individual in accordance with a contract entered into between a school in the school zone and the individual or an employer of the individual; (vi) by a law enforcement officer acting in his or her official capacity; or
(vii) that is unloaded and is possessed by an individual while traversing school premises for the purpose of gaining access to public or private lands open to hunting, if the entry on school premises is authorized by school authorities. Notice how under vi the officer must be acting in an official capacity. A police officer who does not have a CCW from the state which the school zone is located and who is within 1,000 not there on official capacity is in violation. A cop dropper their kid off at school is not acting in an official capacity even if they're just dropping the kid off before they go to work.

Quarter Tank
12-09-2011, 07:06
Can an off duty cop ccw or open carry in or on school property?

HerrGlock
12-09-2011, 07:47
Can an off duty cop ccw or open carry in or on school property?

This is one of the exceptions:

(vi) by a law enforcement officer acting in his or her official capacity;

You can bet that off duty is acting within official capacity. Doubly if the department has a mandate thou shalt carry both on and off duty.

Sippo
12-09-2011, 08:43
No. The only law that would even come into play is the Gun Free School Zone Act (GFSZA) of 1995. But since you have a carry permit issued by the state of Indiana and you had to go a background check to get the permit you are exempt from the GFSZA. Now if you drive north to any other state every time you come within 1,000 feet of a school you are violating federal law unless you have a licensed issued by the state your in.

Ditto that

Dr.Crash
12-09-2011, 08:51
That is the cruel catch of may issue. Since they can (and often do) say NO to a lot of people for no reason at all (simply because said applicant is not politically connected, rich or famous) the off limits locations list is pretty short. They wouldn't want to put all of those silly burdons on the elite few who can get a license


They are starting to say yes to more people. Last year they approved over double the permits than the previous year. What really bothers me is that the people they are stoping from carrying are the law abiding citizens. the bad guys are still going to carry anyway.

JuneyBooney
12-09-2011, 08:56
Honestly, I think it will come down to the officer...

I know here in AZ, TECHNICALLY you cannot be within 1,000 feet which includes driving by - schools are everywhere so it is almost impossible to drive through the valley and not be in violation every few miles...

This is a major argument for getting your CCW in AZ as it allows, you just cannot carry on school property.

That law can be averted because there are houses within 1000 feet of schools. Mainly it is being on school property ie in the building during school hours.

Sam Spade
12-09-2011, 09:32
Other posters have hit the legalities very well. I'll add a practicality:

Local cops do not enforce federal law.

automan
12-09-2011, 09:39
CA permit holders are exempt from any Gun Free School Zones. We can even carry on school grounds K-12 and colleges/universities.

Really? In California, the land of the super paranoid antigunners? Will wonders never cease! Well, you're certainly more free is this instance than most of the other states.:crying:

xmanhockey7
12-09-2011, 09:42
Can an off duty cop ccw or open carry in or on school property?

If they are licensed by the state which the school zone is in yes they can. As far as this law is concerned open or concealed carry doesn't matter. Even if you are transporting the gun per state law (lets say state law requires it to only be in a case without a CCW). If you only have it in the case you are violating GFSZA. Now if you put it in the case, locked, in the trunk you're legal per federal law.

Now in a state like Michigan if you own a handgun you have a license to carry whether it be the so called "purchase permit" (per state law it's actually a license to purchase, possess, carry, and transport a pistol) or CPL. So really officers in Michigan that own handguns are exempt for it completely.

Ghost46
12-09-2011, 10:19
Can only speak for Texas, but, driving through a schoolzone is no problem, i.e., going from point "A" to "B", without stopping. It is the being on the school property that is prohibited. YMMV.

I thought if you had a CHL in Texas you could legally carry on school property just not inside the school itself?:dunno:

TheFireArmorer
12-09-2011, 12:23
I ended up reading the laws on this subject on in.gov website and it said that as long as the person is licensed to possess a firearm they are allowed be on school grounds to drop off or pick someone up as long as the gun stays in their vehicle. So i guess that would mean legally this does not permit a gun with 1000 feet of school property for any other reason. I guess the only way to know for sure is to ask a few different police officers. Thanks for the quick replies!

xmanhockey7
12-09-2011, 16:17
I ended up reading the laws on this subject on in.gov website and it said that as long as the person is licensed to possess a firearm they are allowed be on school grounds to drop off or pick someone up as long as the gun stays in their vehicle. So i guess that would mean legally this does not permit a gun with 1000 feet of school property for any other reason. I guess the only way to know for sure is to ask a few different police officers. Thanks for the quick replies!

DO NOT TAKE LEGAL ADVICE FROM POLICE!!!!!!! As far as being able to carry on school grounds that is going to depend on state law. You can be within 1,000 feet of school legally, per federal law, as long as you have a license to carry from the state which the school is located. A friend I know who lives in Indiana says she sees dads all the time standing outside the school open carrying. From the sound of it they are in the parking lot. I'd suggest check out opencarry.org and going to the Indiana forum. People there tend to know what they're talking about. And if they talk about any laws ask for a cite. That's your best best. DO NOT TAKE LEGAL ADVICE FROM POLICE!!!!!!!

EAJuggalo
12-10-2011, 07:13
DO NOT TAKE LEGAL ADVICE FROM POLICE!!!!!!! As far as being able to carry on school grounds that is going to depend on state law. You can be within 1,000 feet of school legally, per federal law, as long as you have a license to carry from the state which the school is located. A friend I know who lives in Indiana says she sees dads all the time standing outside the school open carrying. From the sound of it they are in the parking lot. I'd suggest check out opencarry.org and going to the Indiana forum. People there tend to know what they're talking about. And if they talk about any laws ask for a cite. That's your best best. DO NOT TAKE LEGAL ADVICE FROM POLICE!!!!!!!

I wouldn't take legal advice from a police officer I was having an encounter with but I think asking police is a great idea at other times, who do you think actually enforces those laws? Now I'm not going to take it as Holy Gospel but if I get the same answer from multiple LEOs then I'm going to put a little more credence in it. I've spoken with LEOs from three states as well as a couple lawyers and have been told the same thing by all of them. Unless you are either stopped by a Federal LE agency or else do something stupid to get charged by the US Attorney it's a non issue.

xmanhockey7
12-10-2011, 12:30
I wouldn't take legal advice from a police officer I was having an encounter with but I think asking police is a great idea at other times, who do you think actually enforces those laws? Now I'm not going to take it as Holy Gospel but if I get the same answer from multiple LEOs then I'm going to put a little more credence in it. I've spoken with LEOs from three states as well as a couple lawyers and have been told the same thing by all of them. Unless you are either stopped by a Federal LE agency or else do something stupid to get charged by the US Attorney it's a non issue.

Firearms attorney is fine but not police. Just because they enforce the laws doesn't mean they know them. Go back 5-7 years in Michigan and there are a lot of cops who'd tell you OC is illegal in Michigan. Even though it's never been. I strongly recommend not taking legal advice from police and if you do look the laws up online to make sure they are correct. Just because a cop tells you something is legal doesn't mean you can do it. Suppose another cop catches you doing what that cop said was legal and you say "Well this other cop told me" won't hold up. Especially in court.

Warp
12-10-2011, 13:07
Firearms attorney is fine but not police. Just because they enforce the laws doesn't mean they know them. Go back 5-7 years in Michigan and there are a lot of cops who'd tell you OC is illegal in Michigan. Even though it's never been. I strongly recommend not taking legal advice from police and if you do look the laws up online to make sure they are correct. Just because a cop tells you something is legal doesn't mean you can do it. Suppose another cop catches you doing what that cop said was legal and you say "Well this other cop told me" won't hold up. Especially in court.

If you have admissible evidence of what the other officer told you or the other officer will testify to the fact you may have a good defense.

Of course, not putting yourself into a position where you need to defend your actions is much preferred.

xmanhockey7
12-10-2011, 14:16
If you have admissible evidence of what the other officer told you or the other officer will testify to the fact you may have a good defense.

Of course, not putting yourself into a position where you need to defend your actions is much preferred.

Negligence of the law is no excuse. Prosecution will say you are responsible for knowing the law and you'd have to be able to find that officer and get him on the stand. And you'd better have the time and money to defend yourself in court.

huggytree
12-10-2011, 17:12
i think unless your in the school or on the school grounds i wouldnt worry about it....even walking on the sidewalk past a school...who's gonna know, who's gonna care

i think you may be thinking too much

when ive called the local cops about firearms issues they never have a clue...i called 2 weeks ago to ask about how close i shoot away from houses....i was transfered 3x....and finally they admitted they didnt know for sure, but the consensus between everyone there was around 200 yards....

i wondered why i even called...

Warp
12-10-2011, 17:15
Negligence of the law is no excuse.

Being wrongfully informed by a sworn government employee who you reasonably believe knows the law is a potential excuse.

There is nothing "negligent" about listening to a law enforcement officer telling you something is legal.

Prosecution will say you are responsible for knowing the law and you'd have to be able to find that officer and get him on the stand. And you'd better have the time and money to defend yourself in court.

The above portion of your post leads me to believe that you did not read my entire post. Here it is again:

If you have admissible evidence of what the other officer told you or the other officer will testify to the fact you may have a good defense.

Of course, not putting yourself into a position where you need to defend your actions is much preferred.

Note that I specifically stated "if" you have admissible evidence of what the officer told you or the officer will testify, that you may have a good defense.

Also note that I specifically stated not being in that position, where your action needs to be defended, is much preferred.


Personal example: When I was living in Indiana I was unsure if the word school, in the law, referred to colleges or just k-12. I emailed the state police and an Lt. responded, stating that it did not appear to apply to colleges. I saved that email. That would, if it came down to it, at least give me a leg to stand on.

I later asked a lawyer I met (was a college instructor of mine) who verified that.


Edit: Here is the email I received back:

Indiana code is available online on Access Indiana at
www.state.in.us/legislative/ic/code. Indiana code 35-41-1-24.7 defines
school property. This definition appears to exclude colleges and
universities. Therefore, the criminal statute for possession of a firearm
on school property does not seem to include colleges and universities.
However, pursuant to policy or handbook, colleges and universities may
prohibit possession of firearms. You may contact the particular college or
university of interest regarding a policy.

You may contact private legal counsel for further information.

______, Lieutenant
Indiana State Police




^^^I think that's a pretty good basis for a defense. Do you?

xmanhockey7
12-10-2011, 17:47
Hey if your willing to take legal advice from them go for it. You MIGHT be LUCKY enough to get off on charges should you receive wrong legal advice but I never would nor would I ever recommend anyone else.

EAJuggalo
12-12-2011, 07:52
If I'm getting the same answer across jurisdictions, states and levels of LE then I am going to accept it. I will take the opinions of those that are out on the street enforcing the law over a single ten year old letter from the ATF that I had never seen until this week.

Lior
12-12-2011, 08:05
Why can't they just legalize carry in schools by permitted, peaceable adults and save lots of money on unnecessary, contradictory legislation?

SuperSleuth
12-12-2011, 10:59
Why can't they just legalize carry in schools by permitted, peaceable adults and save lots of money on unnecessary, contradictory legislation?

Because it's too logical and reasonable.

xmanhockey7
12-12-2011, 11:46
If I'm getting the same answer across jurisdictions, states and levels of LE then I am going to accept it. I will take the opinions of those that are out on the street enforcing the law over a single ten year old letter from the ATF that I had never seen until this week.

Chances are if a lot of them are telling you something it's true. But there's no doubt that to be within 1,000 feet of a school you need a permit from the state which you are in. It's very unlikely you will get in any trouble if you are especially in a state like Arizona or Indiana but it is possible.

wjv
12-12-2011, 12:00
In Kentucky, I can legally drop off little Johnny at school while CCW as long as I remain INSIDE my vehicle and do not brandish said weapon.

Same here in WA State. . Been that way for years and remarkably, no one has gone wacko, jumped outta their car and started shooting people. :dunno:

Maybe people with CCW permits actually are for the most part, law abiding individuals! :shocked:

wjv
12-12-2011, 12:03
Because it's too logical and reasonable.

Logical and Reasonable haven't been a part of the legislative process for many years now. . .

dabigguns357
12-12-2011, 12:20
I,ve been confused about our School zone gun laws here in West Virginia since i had my carry permit.I've read and reread the law but don't get it.

Every time i have to pick up my 13 year old i unload my gun and lock it away even if i'm sitting outside waiting on him.

HerrGlock
12-12-2011, 12:54
I,ve been confused about our School zone gun laws here in West Virginia since i had my carry permit.I've read and reread the law but don't get it.

Every time i have to pick up my 13 year old i unload my gun and lock it away even if i'm sitting outside waiting on him.

What you are doing is correct.

http://www.legis.state.wv.us/WVCODE/code.cfm?chap=61&art=7

(b) (1) It shall be unlawful for any person to possess any firearm or any other deadly weapon on any school bus as defined in section one, article one, chapter seventeen-a of this code, or in or on any public or private primary or secondary education building, structure, facility or grounds thereof, including any vocational education building, structure, facility or grounds thereof where secondary vocational education programs are conducted or at any school-sponsored function.

(2) This subsection shall not apply to:

(A) A law-enforcement officer acting in his or her official capacity;

(B) A person specifically authorized by the board of education of the county or principal of the school where the property is located to conduct programs with valid educational purposes;

(C) A person who, as otherwise permitted by the provisions of this article, possesses an unloaded firearm or deadly weapon in a motor vehicle, or leaves an unloaded firearm or deadly weapon in a locked motor vehicle;

(D) Programs or raffles conducted with the approval of the county board of education or school which include the display of unloaded firearms; or

(E) The official mascot of West Virginia University, commonly known as "The Mountaineer", acting in his or her official capacity.

(3) Any person violating this subsection shall be guilty of a felony, and, upon conviction thereof, shall be imprisoned in the penitentiary of this state for a definite term of years of not less than two years nor more than ten years, or fined not more than five thousand dollars, or both.

dabigguns357
12-12-2011, 13:47
What you are doing is correct.

http://www.legis.state.wv.us/WVCODE/code.cfm?chap=61&art=7


I knew i i was right,thanks.I hate it too.

automan
12-13-2011, 08:02
What you are doing is correct.

http://www.legis.state.wv.us/WVCODE/code.cfm?chap=61&art=7

So, off-duty LEOs can't carry on school property?

HerrGlock
12-13-2011, 08:26
So, off-duty LEOs can't carry on school property?

You might want to actually read the statute rather than make assumptions. The previous poster was not asking about that so I did not copy that part. Read the whole thing:


§61-7-6. Exceptions as to prohibitions against carrying concealed deadly weapons.
The licensure provisions set forth in this article do not apply to:
(...)
(3) Any law-enforcement officer or law-enforcement official as defined in section one, article twenty-nine, chapter thirty of this code;

xmanhockey7
12-13-2011, 10:16
So, off-duty LEOs can't carry on school property?

If state law prohibited LEOs from carrying on school property the Law Enforcement Officer Safety Act (LEOSA) would allow them to be on school property provided they're licensed by the state which the school is located.

SCmasterblaster
12-13-2011, 11:04
It is true that most city-dwellers cannot drive to the grocery store without driving by a school. Here in Hartford, VT it is impossible to drive in the town without passing by a school. Now every state has laws against murder and manslaughter. Is this not enough to keep mass murderers away from schools?

I am about to go to a high school basketball game. I'll have my very-concealed G17 with me. It won't come out in any way unless someone starts shooting at innocent persons. This may be illegal, but not improper in my eyes.

IndyGunFreak
12-13-2011, 11:53
I live in Nashville, Indiana which is a fairly popular tourist town. It is a small place with many unique touristy shops. In this town there are 3 schools and the school property is within a 1000 feet of the main streets. The gas station I normally go to is directly outside of the school property.

I have my carry permit and carry everyday. What I've been wondering is whether or not it is permissible to be in possession of a firearm that close to school property. I need to go to Town Hall and ask an officer, but in the meantime I wanted to ask what you guys think.

The way the town is set up it's almost impossible not be close to school property while traveling through.

I love Nashville.. I take my Dog to Bean Blossom all the time.

as xmanhockey said, you should be fine, since you have a carry permit. I live right across the street from a school.

SCMaster... not saying I disagree, but you might want to re-read GT Rules about discussing illegal activity.. :)

IGF

xmanhockey7
12-13-2011, 18:11
I love Nashville.. I take my Dog to Bean Blossom all the time.

as xmanhockey said, you should be fine, since you have a carry permit. I live right across the street from a school.

SCMaster... not saying I disagree, but you might want to re-read GT Rules about discussing illegal activity.. :)

IGF

^ What this dude said.

Clutch Cargo
12-14-2011, 14:08
Can only speak for Texas, but, driving through a schoolzone is no problem, i.e., going from point "A" to "B", without stopping. It is the being on the school property that is prohibited. YMMV.

Armed while IN aschool building or facility is illegal in Texas. Waiting armed in the parking lot is just fine.

blk69stang
12-14-2011, 14:35
If state law prohibited LEOs from carrying on school property the Law Enforcement Officer Safety Act (LEOSA) would allow them to be on school property provided they're licensed by the state which the school is located.


WRONG.

LEOSA does not constitute an exception to the GFSZA. The only way anyone (including off-duty LEOs) can be exempt from the GFSZA is with the few listed exceptions:


(B) Subparagraph (A) does not apply to the possession of a firearm—
(i) on private property not part of school grounds;
(ii) if the individual possessing the firearm is licensed to do so by the State in which the school zone is located or a political subdivision of the State, and the law of the State or political subdivision requires that, before an individual obtains such a license, the law enforcement authorities of the State or political subdivision verify that the individual is qualified under law to receive the license;
(iii) that is— (I) not loaded; and (II) in a locked container, or a locked firearms rack that is on a motor vehicle;
(iv) by an individual for use in a program approved by a school in the school zone;
(v) by an individual in accordance with a contract entered into between a school in the school zone and the individual or an employer of the individual;
(vi) by a law enforcement officer acting in his or her official capacity; or
(vii) that is unloaded and is possessed by an individual while traversing school premises for the purpose of gaining access to public or private lands open to hunting, if the entry on school premises is authorized by school authorities.


The exceptions to the GFSZA that are pertinent here are Section (ii) that states you're exempt if you have a permit from the State where the school is located, and Section (vi) that exempts LEOs acting in an official capacity.

There are no exceptions for the LEOSA. The text of LEOSA also does not have any provisions for it to exempt the LEO from the GFSZA. This is a known hole in LEOSA, and several congressmen are addressing the issue, but as of RIGHT NOW, LEOSA DOES NOT EXEMPT ANYONE FROM THE GFSZA.

The legal wording of section (vi) of the GFSZA even goes so far as to say "acting in an official capacity". Note that it doesn't say "on duty". So technically, an LEO could be charged even if he was on duty but not acting in an official capacity. Example would be an on-duty cop stopping by the school to drop off lunch for his teacher-wife, or an on-duty cop stopping by school to pick up his sick kid. These visits may in fact be happening while "on duty", but they are certainly not "in an official capacity", as they are obviously personal business.

This is not to say that it's GOING TO HAPPEN this way, and that cops are going to suddenly start getting arrested for such examples. I'm just saying that as the law is written, there are plenty of LEOs who are in-fact violating the GFSZA without knowing it, and are potentially exposing themselves to being charged with violating it. The GFSZA is legally too-vague, and has some major issues with it. The poster-child of flawed legislation.

Food for thought.

xmanhockey7
12-14-2011, 16:10
WRONG.

LEOSA does not constitute an exception to the GFSZA. The only way anyone (including off-duty LEOs) can be exempt from the GFSZA is with the few listed exceptions:



The exceptions to the GFSZA that are pertinent here are Section (ii) that states you're exempt if you have a permit from the State where the school is located, and Section (vi) that exempts LEOs acting in an official capacity.

There are no exceptions for the LEOSA. The text of LEOSA also does not have any provisions for it to exempt the LEO from the GFSZA. This is a known hole in LEOSA, and several congressmen are addressing the issue, but as of RIGHT NOW, LEOSA DOES NOT EXEMPT ANYONE FROM THE GFSZA.

The legal wording of section (vi) of the GFSZA even goes so far as to say "acting in an official capacity". Note that it doesn't say "on duty". So technically, an LEO could be charged even if he was on duty but not acting in an official capacity. Example would be an on-duty cop stopping by the school to drop off lunch for his teacher-wife, or an on-duty cop stopping by school to pick up his sick kid. These visits may in fact be happening while "on duty", but they are certainly not "in an official capacity", as they are obviously personal business.

This is not to say that it's GOING TO HAPPEN this way, and that cops are going to suddenly start getting arrested for such examples. I'm just saying that as the law is written, there are plenty of LEOs who are in-fact violating the GFSZA without knowing it, and are potentially exposing themselves to being charged with violating it. The GFSZA is legally too-vague, and has some major issues with it. The poster-child of flawed legislation.

Food for thought.

Hmm after rereading the GFSZA it not only includes within 1,000 feet of the school but also actual school grounds. I was thinking the state permit would allow them to be within 1,000 feet but you are correct that they could not be on or within 1,000 feet without a license.

Lord
12-14-2011, 22:58
I thought if you had a CHL in Texas you could legally carry on school property just not inside the school itself?:dunno:

As far as the parking lot. Consider that the playgrounds, lunch grounds, picnic tables, I believe are considered the 'premises' and the premises are non carry zones.

Jim S.
12-15-2011, 09:37
I live in Nashville, Indiana

In the fine state of Indiana you may have your gun on you if you do not leave your vehicle while on school property.
You cannot carry it into the school.
I checked and saved you the effort.