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ottomatic
12-08-2011, 18:27
I have a friend who is adament that LAPD officers are required to go to the range monthly.
Does any one have a definitive answer to this?
We have to qualify twice a year, but that is it.

Dragoon44
12-08-2011, 18:43
So even the male LAPD officers can say they have a monthly. or that it is that time of the month for them.

:rofl:

Dukeboy01
12-08-2011, 18:56
Highly doubtful, IMO, due to budget constraints. My agency has gone from qualifying four times a year to qualifying once (twice, if you include off-duty/ shotgun/ and patrol rifle quals, but not everyone does that one) and we only have 520 officers. Someone from the LAPD will be along to clear this up.

COLOSHOOTR
12-08-2011, 19:02
With budget issues I highly doubt monthly quals. On the other hand I think it's a great idea because I'm all for more shooting and I'm tired of the standards being dumbed down.

When I started not all that long ago we had to hit the A zone to get 100% and lost points for hits outside the A zone. A shot off the silhouette was an instant fail and you had to re-shoot. Now all you have to do is hit the darn silhouette and you pass 100% and misses just reduce your score. It's so easy a trained monkey could do it!

Sharky7
12-08-2011, 19:09
We shoot once a month at my agency - so it does exist that some agencies shoot that often. It is a different shoot though every month. Due to the weather, we shot with gloves and jackets on this month. We only do the state qualification every year. Each month is a different training scenario.

collim1
12-08-2011, 19:26
My state requires once a year, my agency tries for twice.

However, recently the new chief saw the aging cache of ammo our old chief had stored up (20k rounds of which is 9mm, which we haven't issued in 15 years) he has opened the range up every wednesday from 8am-12noon for officers to come shoot for free.

It is unpaid, but free ammo and training so I go every week that I am off, and usually shoot 500+ rounds.

Plus I can check out some of the old school .357mag revolvers, AR15's, and Beretta 9mm sub guns and shoot for free. Hard to beat that.

Sadly though I am usually alone. You would think that more guys would come out each week, but normally it is the training Sgt and me by my lonesome. I am worried that Chief will not continue to open the range if no one utilizes it.

tc215
12-08-2011, 19:43
LAPD recently started allowing patrol officers to carry 1911's after attending a transition school, and I think I read on the 1911 forum where a LAPD officer said that the 1911 guys had to shoot every month (but not everyone else).

trdvet
12-08-2011, 19:53
I have a friend who is adament that LAPD officers are required to go to the range monthly.
Does any one have a definitive answer to this?
We have to qualify twice a year, but that is it.

I highly doubt it due to LAPDs size, couldn't imagine the scheduling nightmare that occurs.

jwhite75
12-08-2011, 20:17
If you look around here...somebody quoted the shooting qula once before for LAPD. I do knwo the 1911 was more strenuous than the other platforms.

bccop
12-08-2011, 21:11
We have two firearms training days per year and must qual once a year with our duty pistols.

I have to attend a minimum of two carbine training days. Since taking my training course last spring I went to 7 training days.

Trigger Finger
12-08-2011, 21:15
It's a little complicated!! I worked for over 30 years at LAPD and retired in 2005. The average officer does NOT have to qualify every month!!

However if you want to carry a 45ACP and purchase all of your own gear, as I did, you need to go through a two day 45 school. upon successful completion of this school you have to qualify every month for a year!!

The same is true if you go to GLOCK school if you want to be authorized to carry one. They began issuing Glocks in 2005 or 2006 but if you were on the department before that you had to buy your own and go to school and qualify every month for one year in order to carry one on or off duty. The same with the 1911 and with an AR15.

Also the average officer only has to qualify every other month or 6 times a year.

The Specialized Surveillance Unit I was in for the last 7 years had a mandatory training day every month and almost half of the day was spent shooting several types of weapons we carried.

Hope this helps.

ateamer
12-08-2011, 21:16
I think that the officers who carry 1911s and those who receive bonus pay for qualifying Expert have to qualify monthly.

pal2511
12-08-2011, 21:43
My state requires once a year, my agency tries for twice.

However, recently the new chief saw the aging cache of ammo our old chief had stored up (20k rounds of which is 9mm, which we haven't issued in 15 years) he has opened the range up every wednesday from 8am-12noon for officers to come shoot for free.

It is unpaid, but free ammo and training so I go every week that I am off, and usually shoot 500+ rounds.

Plus I can check out some of the old school .357mag revolvers, AR15's, and Beretta 9mm sub guns and shoot for free. Hard to beat that.

Sadly though I am usually alone. You would think that more guys would come out each week, but normally it is the training Sgt and me by my lonesome. I am worried that Chief will not continue to open the range if no one utilizes it.

Ill come use it with you lol



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pal2511
12-08-2011, 21:45
I think that the officers who carry 1911s and those who receive bonus pay for qualifying Expert have to qualify monthly.

Bonus pay as expert? Wtf

If it wasn't standard to do it once a year doubt we would but once. Nearest official range I can use is 40 miles away. Have not did a night shoot for 10 years!

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Trigger Finger
12-08-2011, 22:42
I think that the officers who carry 1911s and those who receive bonus pay for qualifying Expert have to qualify monthly.

I am not sure about the 1911. That just became optional earlier this year but I think you just have to qualify once a month for the first year you carry it but I could be wrong.

I know if you shoot expert you don't have to shoot monthly. I qualified as an expert and later as a distinguished expert and you just had to qualify as expert or distinguished expert once every 6 months to keep your bonus pay!! But most officers keep in practice by shooting every month (and sometimes a couple of times a month ) to maintain expert or DX, especially DX which is not that easy!! :supergrin::supergrin:

SAR
12-08-2011, 23:10
They just radically changed the qualification schedule. It's quite complex, but in a nutshell:

1) First year of Glock or decocker transition, you qualify monthly. (Those who transition to Glock from Berettas, etc or those who transition to Berettas from Glock, etc).

2) All 1911 shooters must qualify monthly. This is because D Platoon and and SIS qualify monthly, and since they also carry 1911s, any others who carry 1911s must do the same.

3) Most all other officers qualify every other month.

4) Captains and above and officers with 20 or more years on the job only qualify a few times a year.

5) I qualify monthly... they don't kick me off the range... I have over 2o years on and only have to qualify a few times a year, but I don't care, I still shoot every month.

6) If you shoot bonus, you can shoot every week, even twice or three times a week. No one is stopping you... at one point I was shooting every week, but work got in the way.

SAR
12-08-2011, 23:20
Here is the new qualification schedule as of September 1, 2010:

This doesn't account for rifle qualification which is done every quarter.

Lieutenants and Below with Less than 20 Years of Service.
Sworn personnel of the ranks of lieutenants and below with
less than 20 years of service shall qualify during each
cycle with their primary duty handguns and during Cycle 1
with their duty shotguns.

Lieutenants and Below with 20 to 29 Years of ServiceLieutenants and below with 20 to 29 years of service shall
qualify during Cycle 1 with their duty shotguns, and during
Cycles 2 and 5 with their primary duty handguns.

Captains and Above with Less than 30 Years of Service.
Sworn personnel of the ranks of captains and above with
less than 30 years of service shall qualify during
Cycles 2 and 5 with their primary duty handguns and are
exempt from shotgun qualification.

Sworn Personnel with 30 Years or More of Service.All sworn employees (regardless of rank) with 30 years or
more of service are required to qualify one time per
calendar year at their convenience during Cycles 2, 3, 5,
or 6. This qualification requirement shall be met with
their primary duty handguns and duty ammunition. Sworn
personnel with 30 years or more of service are exempt from
the required shotgun qualification.

- January: Shotgun;

- February/March: Primary Duty Handgun with Duty Ammunition;

- April/May: Primary Duty Handgun;

- June/July: FOS;

- September/October: Primary Duty Handgun;

- November/December: Primary Duty Handgun.

Trigger Finger
12-08-2011, 23:55
They just radically changed the qualification schedule. It's quite complex, but in a nutshell:

1) First year of Glock or decocker transition, you qualify monthly. (Those who transition to Glock from Berettas, etc or those who transition to Berettas from Glock, etc).

2) All 1911 shooters must qualify monthly. This is because D Platoon and and SIS qualify monthly, and since they also carry 1911s, any others who carry 1911s must do the same.

3) Most all other officers qualify every other month.

4) Captains and above and officers with 20 or more years on the job only qualify a few times a year.

5) I qualify monthly... they don't kick me off the range... I have over 2o years on and only have to qualify a few times a year, but I don't care, I still shoot every month.

6) If you shoot bonus, you can shoot every week, even twice or three times a week. No one is stopping you... at one point I was shooting every week, but work got in the way.


SAR, on number 2, do the 1911 shooters have to shoot monthly for as long as they carry the gun? I just kind of glossed over everything else in my response. I thought too much info on our complicated qualification system would confuse most people.!!:supergrin:

SAR
12-08-2011, 23:57
SAR, on number 2, do the 1911 shooters have to shoot monthly for as long as they carry the gun? I just kind of glossed over everything else in my response. I thought too much info on our complicated qualification system would confuse most people.!!:supergrin:

Yes, those who carry 1911 must qualify every month for as long as they carry a 1911. They want everyone to match the 1911 qualification cycle of D Platoon and SIS. Then again, anyone who actually wants to carry a 1911 usually has no problem qualifying once a month. You can always tell who the shooters in your squad are by the guns they carry..

ottomatic
12-09-2011, 08:38
Hey guys, thanks for the info. I am surprised that my friend's info was at least partially correct. With cost of ammo and training time at a premium these days I am amazed that they make that effort.

DaBigBR
12-09-2011, 09:27
A lot of folks gasp at how much they shoot, but I think they're buying what amounts to cheap liability insurance in the form of a couple cases of ammo per officer per year.

SAR
12-09-2011, 10:02
A lot of folks gasp at how much they shoot, but I think they're buying what amounts to cheap liability insurance in the form of a couple cases of ammo per officer per year.

I get more people who do a double take at the type of weapons that the regular rank-and-file are allowed to carry.

How many LARGE Agencies across the United States allow their rank-and-file (not SWAT or Specialized Units) to carry:

-A variety of handguns (including .45 1911)

-Patrol Rifle (.223)

-Benelli M4 (with slugs)

Off hand, I can't think of too many larger agencies who shoot as much or are allowed to carry such a variety of weapons. Most large agencies are notoriously gun shy.

CanIhaveGasCash
12-09-2011, 10:09
How many rounds is in a qualification? If you have to qualify every month do you just show up, shoot for 30 minutes and leave?

We qualify every quarter, but the range is a 4 hour endeavor.

SAR
12-09-2011, 10:34
How many rounds is in a qualification? If you have to qualify every month do you just show up, shoot for 30 minutes and leave?

We qualify every quarter, but the range is a 4 hour endeavor.

It's 30 rounds for Combat Qualification, more for the Bonus Qualification course. We have three ranges. You can usually find a range open between 0600 and 2200 hours, and weekends at the Harbor Range.

We also have to qualify quarterly with our Benelli Shotguns and rifles.

PHASE ONE - 12 rounds in 25 seconds on the 7 yard line. Start with the weapon holstered, snapped, and
both hands down by your side. When the targets turn, draw and fire 2 rounds at the right body, 2 rounds
at the left body, 1 round at the left head, and 1 round at the right head. Perform an in battery speed reload
with the 5 round magazine and repeat the sequence; 2 right, 2 left, left head, right head. When the phase
is completed, perform an out of battery speed reload with the second 7 round magazine, decock and
holster. Load two magazines, one with 6 rounds and one with 5 rounds, then place them in the magazine
pouches.

PHASE TWO - 2 rounds in 2 seconds on the 10 yard line. Start in a two hand Low Ready. Each time the
targets turn, 2 rounds in 2 seconds are fired. First pair on the left target, second pair on the right target,
third pair on the left target. Between each pair of rounds you must return to a Low Ready. After the third
pair, perform a tactical reload with the 6 round magazine and holster.

PHASE THREE - 6 rounds in 8 seconds on the 12 yard line. Start in a two hand Low Ready. When the
targets turn, fire 2 rounds on the right target, 2 rounds on the left target, and 2 rounds on the right target.
Perform a tactical reload with the 5 round magazine and holster.

PHASE FOUR - (barricade position) - 1 round in 3 seconds on the 15 yard line. Start in a left hand
barricade position (sights aligned on target, finger on the trigger). Each time the targets turn, fire 1 round
in 3 seconds on the left target. After the third round, decock and assume a right hand barricade position
(sights aligned on target, finger on the trigger). Each time the targets turn, fire 1 round in 3 seconds on
the right target. After the last round, unload and holster.
Combat Course Summary

PHASE ONE: 7 yard line, 12 rounds in 25 seconds, 2 right, 2 left, left head, right head, reload and
repeat the sequence. Start with the pistol holstered.

PHASE TWO: 10 yard line, 2 rounds in 2 seconds. 2 left, 2 right, 2 left. Start in a Low Ready position.

PHASE THREE: 12 yard line, 6 rounds in 8 seconds. 2 right, 2 left, 2 right. Start in a Low Ready
position. 48

PHASE FOUR: 15 yard line, 1 round in 3 seconds. 3 rounds left hand barricade on the left target, 3
rounds right hand barricade on the right target. Start with the sights aligned on target, trigger finger on
the trigger.

G27Chief
12-09-2011, 13:54
:rofl:So even the male LAPD officers can say they have a monthly. or that it is that time of the month for them.

:rofl:

Morris
12-09-2011, 20:31
I'm guessing that whatever the qual cycle was, it paid off in spade today in Hollywood on Vine . . .

SAR
12-09-2011, 20:56
I'm guessing that whatever the qual cycle was, it paid off in spade today in Hollywood on Vine . . .

I'm ok, by the way.. I am still here at work... it's a long day for sure. Can't really talk about it, but it was chaotic.

Morris
12-09-2011, 22:24
Certainly appeared so. Anything that can be shed as to the "why"?

And yeah, you stud. Yer my hero. :supergrin:

Cochese
12-10-2011, 14:48
Jesus, I was just about to pop in and post this link

http://www.washingtonpost.com/national/la-police-shoot-kill-gunman-who-opened-fire-on-cars-wounded-driver-at-famed-sunset-and-vine/2011/12/10/gIQAZso1jO_story.html?tid=pm_national_pop

With a smartass comment about how quals pay off.

:patriot:

Morris
12-10-2011, 15:21
Based upon the first comment in the Post article, I see we share the same breed of fruitloops.

Morris
12-10-2011, 15:23
http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-shooting-pictures,0,6391803.photogallery

Hulluva photo . . . .

Patchman
12-10-2011, 16:04
Sunset & Vine? The shooter must have thought he was part of a movie production and after getting shot by responding LEOs (all part of the script), the director would yell "cut. Print." and he'd get up and go back to makeup.

Oooops, but somebody wrote him out of the script for good.

DaBigBR
12-10-2011, 22:22
The little bit of video that I saw of the guy shooting gave me a "real life GTA" (the video game, that is) kind of vibe.

Ship A'Hoy
12-11-2011, 03:47
My state requires once a year, my agency tries for twice.

However, recently the new chief saw the aging cache of ammo our old chief had stored up (20k rounds of which is 9mm, which we haven't issued in 15 years) he has opened the range up every wednesday from 8am-12noon for officers to come shoot for free.

It is unpaid, but free ammo and training so I go every week that I am off, and usually shoot 500+ rounds.

Plus I can check out some of the old school .357mag revolvers, AR15's, and Beretta 9mm sub guns and shoot for free. Hard to beat that.

Sadly though I am usually alone. You would think that more guys would come out each week, but normally it is the training Sgt and me by my lonesome. I am worried that Chief will not continue to open the range if no one utilizes it.

I'll come shoot with you.

DFin
12-14-2011, 16:07
SAR,
Can you answer a few Q's about LAPD authorized & issued weapons:
What is the current shotgun issued to the patrol division?
What kind of sights & stocks?
Do they still use the Ithaca model 37's? I read that they had purchased Rem 870's.
Do the officers have to purchase their own M4's and .223 Patrol Rifles?
What happened to all those M-16's the LAPD received from the U.S. gov?
Besides Kimbers what brands of 1911's are authorized?

Thanks, I'm (we're) just curious.

SAR
12-14-2011, 22:07
SAR,
Can you answer a few Q's about LAPD authorized & issued weapons:
What is the current shotgun issued to the patrol division?
What kind of sights & stocks?
Do they still use the Ithaca model 37's? I read that they had purchased Rem 870's.
Do the officers have to purchase their own M4's and .223 Patrol Rifles?
What happened to all those M-16's the LAPD received from the U.S. gov?
Besides Kimbers what brands of 1911's are authorized?

Thanks, I'm (we're) just curious.

Current shotgun for patrol is the Remington 870, but the Benelli M4 is authorized (with slugs) if you go to transition school and buy your own. You can also mount optics on the Benelli. I have the Trijicon T-1 Micro on mine. The stock is a pistol grip. You can also buy and carry your own Remington 870P or similar if you wish.

All the Ithaca Model 37s are painted green and are used for less than lethal. They are also selling off surplus Ithacas to officers who want them.

You can buy your own M4 (Colt 6940, M&P, Bushmaster, etc) or carry the full-size M-16 that the Govt provided LAPD.

The 1911 program is feature based and you can use almost any reputable 1911 as long as it meets the criteria. Mine is the Springfield TRP Operator.

ateamer
12-14-2011, 22:12
You can buy your own M4 (Colt 6940, M&P, Bushmaster, etc) or carry the full-size M-16 that the Govt provided LAPD.

Who at LAPD could I contact to get a copy of the policy and research that went into it? We aren't allowed to buy our own rifles because of the AG's opinion about their legality after we leave law enforcement. I figure that if LAPD allows it with all their restrictive policies, there is no reason why a small SO in NorCal shouldn't.

SAR
12-14-2011, 22:17
Who at LAPD could I contact to get a copy of the policy and research that went into it? We aren't allowed to buy our own rifles because of the AG's opinion about their legality after we leave law enforcement. I figure that if LAPD allows it with all their restrictive policies, there is no reason why a small SO in NorCal shouldn't.

Yo... don't give our muckety-mucks any ideas... if you start snooping around, someone might get ideas. ESPECIALLY if you mention that AG stuff... :whistling:

vanilla_gorilla
12-14-2011, 22:22
I'm somewhat surprised at the qual course. Unless the target is a bowling pin or something smaller, that sounds pretty damn easy.

Wish I could have gotten my chief to agree to 1911s. I wouldn't have sold my SA Operator. Oh well, I've got no issues with my M&P.

SAR
12-14-2011, 22:25
I'm somewhat surprised at the qual course. Unless the target is a bowling pin or something smaller, that sounds pretty damn easy.

Wish I could have gotten my chief to agree to 1911s. I wouldn't have sold my SA Operator. Oh well, I've got no issues with my M&P.

It's a timed course and the targets turn and face away. Always qualify, but it's not a gimme.

vanilla_gorilla
12-14-2011, 22:35
It's a timed course and the targets turn and face away. Always qualify, but it's not a gimme.

Maybe I said that too lightly. It sounds like a course I wouldn't have a problem with, I don't think.

It also sounds reasonably sufficient to show who cannot shoot.

Trigger Finger
12-15-2011, 01:25
SAR
I wish I could purchase one of the Ithaca Shotguns for posterity but I hate driving back to SoCal for any reason. Do you think they would send one to a gun store in Sonoma County?

Who would I contact to find out, the Revolver Club?

SAR
12-15-2011, 01:26
SAR
I wish I could purchase one of the Ithaca Shotguns for posterity but I hate driving back to SoCal for any reason. Do you think they would send one to a gun store in Sonoma County?

Who would I contact to find out, the Revolver Club?

I think it may be too late. You had to go down to Piper Tech to get one from Supply.

tsdsensei
12-15-2011, 05:25
I guess I would address SAR primarily. The primary duty handgun has been addressed as far as qualifications. What is the policy when it comes to backup weapons and off duty weapons? I have heard they have a fairly liberal policy on what an officer is allowed to use and can have more than one optional weapon. How is the training and qualification handled however?

DFin
12-15-2011, 07:17
Wow, you have to put out significant amounts of $ to buy your own M-4 rifle & shotgun and 1911. Does the Dept. have any deal with suppliers so you can buy them for less than retail?

SAR
12-15-2011, 09:05
Wow, you have to put out significant amounts of $ to buy your own M-4 rifle & shotgun and 1911. Does the Dept. have any deal with suppliers so you can buy them for less than retail?

Not really, we can buy them at our academy or Proforce or wherever we want. The Benelli, M4 rifle, and 1911 are strictly optional. No one is forced to transition. You buy them at your own discretion. Nonetheless, there is still a long wait to get into a class. There is no shortage of officers who are buying them on their own dime.

SAR
12-15-2011, 09:07
I guess I would address SAR primarily. The primary duty handgun has been addressed as far as qualifications. What is the policy when it comes to backup weapons and off duty weapons? I have heard they have a fairly liberal policy on what an officer is allowed to use and can have more than one optional weapon. How is the training and qualification handled however?

You can carry a revolver, semi-auto, a S&W Bodyguard .380 or Ruger LCP .380. The semi-autos are Glocks, and S&Ws primarily. Most people carry a j-frame revolver or LCP. There is a back-up qualification course.

drizzle
12-15-2011, 10:04
Looks like the Hispanic plainclothes officer in the Times photos has an old Smith auto, maybe a 4506? Go old school!

A6Gator
12-15-2011, 11:26
Yes, those who carry 1911 must qualify every month for as long as they carry a 1911. They want everyone to match the 1911 qualification cycle of D Platoon and SIS. Then again, anyone who actually wants to carry a 1911 usually has no problem qualifying once a month. You can always tell who the shooters in your squad are by the guns they carry..

I envy you guys being able to carry 1911s. Is there a standard 1911 for LAPD, does it come from a list or is it a deal where an armorer checks out whatever you bring in and it's good to go? Any clear preference for manufacturers in your experience?

DaBigBR
12-15-2011, 11:55
I envy you guys being able to carry 1911s. Is there a standard 1911 for LAPD, does it come from a list or is it a deal where an armorer checks out whatever you bring in and it's good to go? Any clear preference for manufacturers in your experience?

.....

The 1911 program is feature based and you can use almost any reputable 1911 as long as it meets the criteria. Mine is the Springfield TRP Operator.

A6Gator
12-15-2011, 18:59
My bad. In the future I promise to read the whole thread.

DFin
12-15-2011, 19:38
That is still around 3,500 to 4K to purchase your own M4 carbine ($800 to $1,400), Benelli M4 ($1,600) and 1911 TRP ($1000.)

SAR
12-15-2011, 19:58
That is still around 3,500 to 4K to purchase your own M4 carbine ($800 to $1,400), Benelli M4 ($1,600) and 1911 TRP ($1000.)

That's a pretty low estimate... My M4 has a Trijicon sight so add another $600 to that. My Benelli has a Trijicon sight also (another $600). Also, Surefire rails, and Surefire M900 light (another $750), a Mesa Tactical side saddle, and a Benelli extension tube. Also factor in the cost of ballistic nylon cases, holsters, both nylon drop leg, and leather, plus slings and other accessories, and don't even get me started on the level IV armor MOLLE Tactical Vest ($2,000+) which is also an optional item for rifle and Benelli shooters, and you rapidly reach $9,000+. Still, no one put a gun to my head and forced me to go out and buy this stuff. The Department still provides officers with M-16s, Remington 870 shotguns, and a duty weapon. All the rest of this stuff is up to you......

DFin
12-15-2011, 20:52
That is a lot of your own coin "To Protect and Serve" the citizens of LA! Especially when you consider that it is not unheard of for police cars, and their contents, to get stolen!!
Does everyone get training with the AR-15/M-16 or is that another thing you have to wait to get admitted to a class for?

SAR
12-15-2011, 21:05
That is a lot of your own coin "To Protect and Serve" the citizens of LA! It is not unheard of for police cars, and their contents, to get stolen too!!
Does everyone get training with the AR-15/M-16 or is that another thing you have to wait to get admitted to a class for?

You will find that almost all of the rifle, shotgun and 1911 shooters are gun enthusiasts in real life, and most even compete in three-gun, etc. You find very few non-gun enthusiasts in those cadres. So look at it this way. If you are already a gun enthusiast, and you love to shoot, why wouldn't you sign up to get some of the best training in the world and bust caps all day long for free?????

We have 10,000 officers.... there are many enthusiasts on the job. You betcha, they want to take part in these programs where they provide world class training and free ammo. And yes, you have to throw your name in the ring and get "slotted" for a class. It can take awhile. There is a very high wash-out rate of up to 50% in some cases. So one thing I do not see in any of these classes is your average Joe. Almost every shooter on a rifle or shotgun cadre is already high-speed and works some sort of specialized unit. And even though we have 10,000 officers, all us cadre guys know each other... we see each other in all the same classes and training sessions.

DFin
12-15-2011, 21:44
Yes the free ammo & training are a significant perk! It's too bad the dept does not buy these items in large amounts at discount rates and then allow officers to buy them. It is nice to see that the LAPD has done such a 180 from their previous firearm policies. I recall when they only allowed neutered (double action only) .38 caliber revolvers and their big concession was to allow clam shell holsters.

SAR
12-15-2011, 21:48
Yes the free ammo & training are a significant perk! It's too bad the dept does not buy these items in large amounts at discount rates and then allow officers to buy them.

I am actually glad that the Department doesn't buy in bulk. If they did, they would limit the brands that are allowed for carry because they could not afford to stock every brand under the sun... I love being able to choose Colt vs Bushmaster vs M&P, and Trijicon vs Leupold, etc... I would hate it if they said, "This is the brand of optic you will use because we get them at a discount." Kind of like HMO vs PPO.

SCSU74
12-15-2011, 22:13
I shoot twice a month? Not required, but we can sign out ammo when we go.


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DaBigBR
12-16-2011, 09:51
That's a pretty low estimate... My M4 has a Trijicon sight so add another $600 to that. My Benelli has a Trijicon sight also (another $600). Also, Surefire rails, and Surefire M900 light (another $750), a Mesa Tactical side saddle, and a Benelli extension tube. Also factor in the cost of ballistic nylon cases, holsters, both nylon drop leg, and leather, plus slings and other accessories, and don't even get me started on the level IV armor MOLLE Tactical Vest ($2,000+) which is also an optional item for rifle and Benelli shooters, and you rapidly reach $9,000+. Still, no one put a gun to my head and forced me to go out and buy this stuff. The Department still provides officers with M-16s, Remington 870 shotguns, and a duty weapon. All the rest of this stuff is up to you......

Plus everything over 2% of your AGI is deductible.

Morris
12-16-2011, 10:49
Plus everything over 2% of your AGI is deductible.

Huge. I keep my receipts and get a decent return for the effort. Or, as my wife points out, I spent too much money to begin with for "tools and toys" . . .

SAR
12-16-2011, 10:59
Huge. I keep my receipts and get a decent return for the effort. Or, as my wife points out, I spent too much money to begin with for "tools and toys" . . .

I wish, but to reach 2% of my AGI, I'd have to spend more than $4,000 in any given year... Most of my gun purchases were not in the same year and were spread out over time.

Morris
12-16-2011, 12:36
Problem is, between uniforms, training ammo, classes, equipment out of pocket against my pay level, I reach it. I don't mind paying what I need to to stay current and properly equipped, provided the budget can support it.

SAR
12-16-2011, 13:19
Problem is, between uniforms, training ammo, classes, equipment out of pocket against my pay level, I reach it. I don't mind paying what I need to to stay current and properly equipped, provided the budget can support it.

If I was not on the job, I wouldn't buy a MOLLE Vest or any uniforms, but I would still buy guns and ammo... LAPD does a good job of issuing all of our required equipment, but I don't mind paying for upgraded equipment which is better or more useful to me. I realize I do so voluntarily though.

DaBigBR
12-16-2011, 18:49
I wish, but to reach 2% of my AGI, I'd have to spend more than $4,000 in any given year... Most of my gun purchases were not in the same year and were spread out over time.

Yeah, but as I recall you have a decent little side business, no?

SAR
12-16-2011, 20:21
Yeah, but as I recall you have a decent little side business, no?

Well there is that.. I do own a small little defense contract business on the side... and my wife swears she makes six figures also, though I never see any of it.. :whistling:

Morris
12-17-2011, 08:10
though I never see any of it..

That might as well be chiseled into granite for most married guys . . .

lawman800
12-17-2011, 10:52
My friend shoots every month because it's free and because he has that kind of time. Lucky bastard. I get to shoot every 3 months because that's all they require. I can shoot every month but I am too lazy to go to the range to get my free time in.

Morris
12-17-2011, 10:59
We have a glut of training ammo because no one goes to the range to practice . . . I beg for as much as they will give to me.

lawman800
12-17-2011, 11:03
Hmmm... I need to ask about that next time I go qualify. I know we can use the range and they even let us bring family or friends... I'll see what they do with all the extra ammo.

fastbolt
12-17-2011, 13:32
Aside from a brief time when we were having trouble getting ammo orders filled, we've always offered (even encouraged, in many instances :whistling: ) our folks to come by on range dates for extra practice on their own time. It has to be something they want to do, since we can't pay them for it on their off time.

You'd think that free ammo & targets, free range time and a range where they could engage in all manner of drills & such and one-on-one access to instructors (and armorers) would be enough inducement to get more folks to come by a range on their own time, though.

Not so much, though.

Many often made vague comments of being interested, but then seldom (if ever) showed up, and many simply outright complained they were too busy on their off days and just weren't able to make the time.

There were a couple of rare exceptions upon occasion. I can think of a one fellow who likes IDPA and who likes to bring his off-duty (IDPA) guns through the range as often as possible. He was actually coming by so much that we finally had to start curtailing his 'extra practice time'. :rofl: I spent a lot of time with him, though. Good shooter. Nice guy. One of the folks with whom I've gone through dark doorways while working. Still tries to talk me into letting him steal a couple of my guns (on which he's had an eye) for a song & a dance. :tongueout:

Well, when it comes down to it, prioritizing time and activities (including extra training & practice) is up to the individual. I can't really do anything other than extend the invitation, after all (unless someone actually DQ's and remedial training is required).

DennisW
12-22-2011, 15:52
That's a pretty low estimate... My M4 has a Trijicon sight so add another $600 to that. My Benelli has a Trijicon sight also (another $600). Also, Surefire rails, and Surefire M900 light (another $750), a Mesa Tactical side saddle, and a Benelli extension tube. Also factor in the cost of ballistic nylon cases, holsters, both nylon drop leg, and leather, plus slings and other accessories, and don't even get me started on the level IV armor MOLLE Tactical Vest ($2,000+) which is also an optional item for rifle and Benelli shooters, and you rapidly reach $9,000+. Still, no one put a gun to my head and forced me to go out and buy this stuff. The Department still provides officers with M-16s, Remington 870 shotguns, and a duty weapon. All the rest of this stuff is up to you......

Exactly this. I have the same personally purchased fully accessorized Benelli M4 as well as a loaded 870. I also have gone thru 3 sidearm evolutions all personally financed first with my issued Beretta and stainless Italian one, then S&W .45's, and now Glocks each with multiple holster types, mag pouches, tons of mags, various accessories, and most importantly tons of extra ammo and training outside the Dept. to maximize my skills. I shoot on my own at least monthly if not more and get to do regular extra tactical training with my specialized unit as well as with a dedicated group of friends.

As far as the 1911 now being authorized, I have wanted to carry one my whole career and I am huge gun guy but I am not sure I see the tactical utility over my Glocks... Heavier, less ammo, but more accurate? Better ergonomics are always cited but I'm not in love with the one I have, although truthfully that is a function of familiarity since I have many tens of thousands of rounds and hours downrange on other platforms. Of course, once the transition classes start clearing their backlog and my new baby grows up a bit I will likely transition on pure gun guy principle :cool:

However, I heard a bunch of the SIS guys went back to their G21's after transitioning? I guess depending on your assignment more bullets might be better...

Dennis.

lawman800
12-22-2011, 16:33
What kind of trijicon can you get for $600? Reflex?

DennisW
12-22-2011, 16:38
What kind of trijicon can you get for $600? Reflex?

I think he meant an Aimpoint T1.

lawman800
12-23-2011, 13:26
Yeah, I like the Aimpoint PRO. Those are nice. But I run an EoTech.

DennisW
12-23-2011, 14:07
Yeah, I like the Aimpoint PRO. Those are nice. But I run an EoTech.

Smaller is better when you are starting with a long, heavy Benelli!

Dennis.

lawman800
12-24-2011, 13:26
Smaller is better when you are starting with a long, heavy Benelli!

Dennis.

The EoTech XPS 2.0 and variants are pretty tiny... big difference being that the EoTech is a true holographic sight while the Aimpoint is a super tough beefy red dot.

SAR
12-24-2011, 13:33
The EoTech XPS 2.0 and variants are pretty tiny... big difference being that the EoTech is a true holographic sight while the Aimpoint is a super tough beefy red dot.

I have both an Eotech and an Aimpoint Micro T1. I much prefer the T1 and have it on my Benelli currently. The Eotech battery dies at some inopportune time regardless of whether you use it or not. I could leave the T1 on and it will still last over 5 years, even with it on.

The Eotech is great if you are deployed military because you can throw in fresh batteries before each patrol and toss the old ones. In law enforcement, the rifle spends 95% of the time in a case in the trunk, and it would be ridiculous to put in fresh batteries every shift. So basically the Eotech's batteries are a crap shoot for patrol. When you really need the Eotech, will the sight turn on?

lawman800
12-24-2011, 14:25
I have both an Eotech and an Aimpoint Micro T1. I much prefer the T1 and have it on my Benelli currently. The Eotech battery dies at some inopportune time regardless of whether you use it or not. I could leave the T1 on and it will still last over 5 years, even with it on.

The Eotech is great if you are deployed military because you can throw in fresh batteries before each patrol and toss the old ones. In law enforcement, the rifle spends 95% of the time in a case in the trunk, and it would be ridiculous to put in fresh batteries every shift. So basically the Eotech's batteries are a crap shoot for patrol. When you really need the Eotech, will the sight turn on?

That is a great point in the everlasting EoTech vs. Aimpoint debate. The new EoTechs are supposedly better in that respect that they don't crap out and the new transverse battery mount cures the contact point wearing out issue.

I figure if you function check your rifle like you do with your shotgun before every shift, you should be good to go. I also carry extra batteries for everything that I use and there's always a Radio Shack if I run out. I know, cold comfort if that SHTF moment goes down and it's not there, but that's what BUIS are for, right?

SAR
12-24-2011, 14:39
I figure if you function check your rifle like you do with your shotgun before every shift, you should be good to go. I also carry extra batteries for everything that I use and there's always a Radio Shack if I run out. I know, cold comfort if that SHTF moment goes down and it's not there, but that's what BUIS are for, right?

Sure you perform a function check, but you still don't know if your Eotech battery has 10 minutes or 10 hours of battery life left. The only way you would know is if you put in fresh batteries. You know that sinking feeling when your streamlight goes **** up half way through a traffic ticket? It is much worse with a holographic sight, half way through a dynamic entry.

lawman800
12-24-2011, 22:46
Sure you perform a function check, but you still don't know if your Eotech battery has 10 minutes or 10 hours of battery life left. The only way you would know is if you put in fresh batteries. You know that sinking feeling when your streamlight goes **** up half way through a traffic ticket? It is much worse with a holographic sight, half way through a dynamic entry.

Agreed. That's why I am saving up for that super nice Trijicon that has the 3 power sources. Man, I tried it at ProForce, that sucker's bright! The triangle aiming point is brighter than some powered units I saw using just the fiber optic!

DennisW
12-25-2011, 02:10
That is a great point in the everlasting EoTech vs. Aimpoint debate. The new EoTechs are supposedly better in that respect that they don't crap out and the new transverse battery mount cures the contact point wearing out issue.

I figure if you function check your rifle like you do with your shotgun before every shift, you should be good to go. I also carry extra batteries for everything that I use and there's always a Radio Shack if I run out. I know, cold comfort if that SHTF moment goes down and it's not there, but that's what BUIS are for, right?

Since we are talking about Benelli's here, there is no BUIS or cowitness. Just a hunk of dead metal sitting between your sights. I have my T1 on a Larue QD but that still takes a few seconds to get off, and most guys with T1's just screw them on with the OEM mount.

I have one of the new EOTechs too and while the transverse battery seems to work fine, it does die with alarming regularity although there is warning before it does... However, my last Benelli deployment lasted 16 hours and having to worry about batteries would have just been extra trouble. The "true holographic sight" is sorta cool and I like the 1MOA dot for accuracy in a carbine but it definitely is not worth the worry in a duty weapon that is carried often but used rarely. As always, SAR's point about not knowing how much power you have left at any one point is a major problem.

Dennis.

lawman800
12-25-2011, 05:04
Since we are talking about Benelli's here, there is no BUIS or cowitness. Just a hunk of dead metal sitting between your sights. I have my T1 on a Larue QD but that still takes a few seconds to get off, and most guys with T1's just screw them on with the OEM mount.

I have one of the new EOTechs too and while the transverse battery seems to work fine, it does die with alarming regularity although there is warning before it does... However, my last Benelli deployment lasted 16 hours and having to worry about batteries would have just been extra trouble. The "true holographic sight" is sorta cool and I like the 1MOA dot for accuracy in a carbine but it definitely is not worth the worry in a duty weapon that is carried often but used rarely. As always, SAR's point about not knowing how much power you have left at any one point is a major problem.

Dennis.

The one thing that any battery powered gizmo will do is poop out at inopportune times. The difference with the Aimpoint is that a red dot consumes way less power so your risk interval of running out of juice is that much longer than the EoTech which uses a laser to project the hologram. That is the main advantage of the Aimpoint.

Then again, like I said, nothing wrong with Trijicon. They advertise the fact that tritium with a 20 year half life and fiber optic backup pretty much guarantees zero chance of failure to illuminate the reticle. Too bad they cost 3x what an EoTech or Aimpoint costs.