Does anyone else carry two types of ammo. [Archive] - Glock Talk

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G36Bell
12-09-2011, 21:50
I CCW with JHP in my G36. And my spare mag full of FMJ. Just in case you need to punch thru something. Doors, windscreens....

Does anyone else do this?:dunno:

UPDATE: I don't stagger rounds in my hand guns. Just carry FMJ in my spare mag.
I have shot Federal Hydro shocks a 1 inch thick plywood and it has stopped the round and bulged the back out of the board.

jaklcrow
12-09-2011, 21:53
I stagger JHP/FMJ in all my mags

10-32
12-09-2011, 21:54
Nope.

Doesn't sound very practical or realistic IMO. What are you doing that you are going to be able to switch ammo, and why would you need to shoot through a door?

I'm curious as to what type of scenario you have in your head. Not trying to be negative here, just curious

Wawrz
12-09-2011, 21:56
I CCW with JHP in my G36. And my spare mag full of FMJ. Just in case you need to punch thru something. Doors, windscreens....

Does anyone else do this?:dunno:

I have always used jhp when cc but that's a good idea to carry the spare mag with fmj just for those reasons...

Al Czervik
12-09-2011, 21:57
I CCW with JHP in my G36. And my spare mag full of FMJ. Just in case you need to punch thru something. Doors, windscreens....

Does anyone else do this?:dunno:


Negative Ghostrider.

Bowtie
12-09-2011, 21:57
I know people that carry a spare mag of ball ammo for duty use but I don't..Staggering is foolish in my opinion because during an adrenalin dump you're not going to know what you just fire and whats coming up next. Ball ammo is going to over penetrate things you don't want such as people, wall's ect. Why would you EVER want to shoot through a door?

Fragman
12-09-2011, 21:58
Nope.

G36Bell
12-09-2011, 21:59
Nope.

Doesn't sound very practical or realistic IMO. What are you doing that you are going to be able to switch ammo, and why would you need to shoot through a door?

I'm curious as to what type of scenario you have in your head. Not trying to be negative here, just curious


Lets see....a car jacker has you in a parking lot. You stuck in your car, he has a gun pointed at you head. Are you going to say hold on let me roll down the window.

Some one has broke into your house and has you cornered in a back upstairs bed room. They are smashing the door in .....

You get the idea.:dunno:

SWAMPRNR
12-09-2011, 22:06
Get yourself a 10mm if your worried about a door. Problem solved :thumbsup:

Bowtie
12-09-2011, 22:07
Lets see....a car jacker has you in a parking lot. You stuck in your car, he has a gun pointed at you head. Are you going to say hold on let me roll down the window.

Some one has broke into your house and has you cornered in a back upstairs bed room. They are smashing the door in .....

You get the idea.:dunno:

Well if thats the scenario then the first shot will take out the window second, third fourth or whatever makes contact with the BG..Any decent hollow point is not going to get stopped by an interior door..See where I'm going with this?

10-32
12-09-2011, 22:08
Lets see....a car jacker has you in a parking lot. You stuck in your car, he has a gun pointed at you head. Are you going to say hold on let me roll down the window.

Some one has broke into your house and has you cornered in a back upstairs bed room. They are smashing the door in .....

You get the idea.:dunno:

Ok I think I see what you're thinking, but a good JHP will work just fine right through your car window or just about any interior door in your home (in my house anyway).

Think about the scenario where you're cornered in your home for a second ... Are you really going to have the thought process that you need to drop the mag you have, take the round out of the chamber, insert the other mag, release the slide, and THEN shoot ... or are you just going to send a couple of whatever is in the gun at the door? And if you DO have the mindset...and the time...to do all that, will you have the fine motor control to get it done?

Not arguing with you, just playing devil's advocate

Ender587
12-09-2011, 22:09
I think you should carry what your comfortable carrying. Ive hot hollows in my bedside gun, and ive got FMJ's in the house but not loaded. I dont think Id ever stack them because like someone already said.. Id lose track of what I was shooting.

Bowtie
12-09-2011, 22:12
Besides, shoot ball ammo through an interior door and miss? Your neighbors are not going to appreciate that one..

Hour13
12-09-2011, 22:13
PDX-1s... ftw.
:cool:

"Cold Dead Hands" !
12-09-2011, 22:19
Corbon DPX will do it all !
Expand nicely, but not fragment.
Shoots thru thick sheet metal, like steel doors, like a FMJ.
It didn't expand, when shot thru the sheet metal.

Bonded bullets should work good too.
Speer Gold Dot, and others.

10-32
12-09-2011, 22:22
Corbon DPX will do it all !
Expand nicely, but not fragment.

Shoots thru thick sheet metal, like steel doors, like a FMJ.
It didn't expand, when shot thru the sheet metal.

That's what I carry in my little P32. Good stuff

arushus
12-09-2011, 22:23
I own a 10mm glock, and all my following statements pertain to it...

I dont stagger my ammo or anything like that, but I do keep different types for different situations...my home defense round is a 135gr nosler jhp, it pretty much blows up when it hits anything, so theres less of a chance of overpenetrating and hitting someone else, or missing and going through a wall and hurting a neighbor kid or something like that.

I use 155 or 165 gr golddot for carry purposes.

I use 180gr hornady xtp's, (or 175gr winchester silvertip jhp's since they expand a little better) for when there is no telling what I may run into, kinda like a general purpose round for say camping, hiking, etc...it is heavy enough to take down four legged critters, and isnt overkill for the two legged critters.

I use 200gr hardcast or 200gr hornady xtp rounds if Im out hunting with my pistol as my primary means of taking game, but as a backup gun to my rifle or bow, I revert back to the 180gr xtp's or 175gr winchester silvertip jhp's....

cowboy1964
12-09-2011, 22:38
I CCW with JHP in my G36. And my spare mag full of FMJ. Just in case you need to punch thru something. Doors, windscreens....

Does anyone else do this?:dunno:

Good JHPs punch through doors and glass just fine.

Staggering is just plain dumb. A service caliber FMJ will go through two people and still kill a third. Not to mention that FMJ is a poor stopper so you are compromising half of your ammo.

ronin.45
12-09-2011, 22:44
No.

All the same defensive ammo. It will go through anything I need to shoot through just fine.

arushus
12-09-2011, 22:47
The OP never said anything anout staggering his ammo, he did say he carries one mag of hp's and one mag of fmj's...makes sense to me, whatever floats your boat!

But I agree, anyone who does stagger their ammunition is just a plain ol silly mall-ninja!

The only staggering that ever made even a little bit of sense to me was when someone said that the first round in their mags is one type, and all the rest is another...I cant remember exactly what the orientation was, but it did make sense at the time he told me about it...

Opie 1 Kenopie
12-09-2011, 22:50
Besides, shoot ball ammo through an interior door and miss? Your neighbors are not going to appreciate that one..

Or your kids in the next room over.

Staggering is naive in my opinion. Modern JHPs will penentrate most common barriers. I've tested them in the SD calbers for years.

Using FMJ "ball" ammo for defense is just as silly, in my opinion. It worked pretty well in WWII, but we've come a long way boys. Over penetration is always a concern, but I'd be more worried about lack of damage. FMJ is the reason our guys oversees don't like the 9mm. It tends to pass right through Hadjiis with little effect. .45 might be better, but I'll use an expanding JHP any day. Ask yourselves why LE doesn't use FMJ or stagger their rounds. And those of us in LE work around barriers every day. My department looks specifically for rounds that work reliably through auto windshields and sheet metal. We have used Speer GD, Winchester Ranger XT and Remington Golden Sabers successfully for years.

BailRecoveryAgent
12-09-2011, 22:52
The only reason I would carry fmj's is if I lived somewhere that hollow points were illegal like NJ.

Carrying fmj's to me is akin to carrying a weapon that has been less than reliable.

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Opie 1 Kenopie
12-09-2011, 22:55
The only reason I would carry fmj's is if I lived somewhere that hollow points were illegal like NJ.

Carrying fmj's to me is akin to carrying a weapon that has been less than reliable.

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True. But I'd use Cor-Bon Pow-R-Ball or that Remington mushrooming round nose stuff in that case. The only time I'd use FMJ for SD is if it were mandated, such as US Military applications etc. And then I'd want it in.45 for the largest diameter hole possible. But still a dumb idea.

unit1069
12-09-2011, 23:06
I CCW with JHP in my G36. And my spare mag full of FMJ. Just in case you need to punch thru something. Doors, windscreens....

Does anyone else do this?:dunno:

I have always carried a different JHP round in my magazines just to provide a different ammo solution to a possible different scenario. Of course, I rarely carry a second magazine. I have the second mag loaded differently for quick switch-out for those different scenarios.

If you're concerned with blasting through doors I recommend .357sig, a round considered very good for barrier penetration in handgun calibers with either JHP or FMJ.

Bowtie
12-09-2011, 23:12
I have always carried a different JHP round in my magazines just to provide a different ammo solution to a possible different scenario. Of course, I rarely carry a second magazine. I have the second mag loaded differently for quick switch-out for those different scenarios.

If you're concerned with blasting through doors I recommend .357sig, a round considered very good for barrier penetration in handgun calibers with either JHP or FMJ.

Help me understand your way of thinking. Why would you carry a different HP in your mag? What will one do the the others will not?

unit1069
12-09-2011, 23:12
Why would you EVER want to shoot through a door?

In some states it's not necessary to wait until the perp(s) fully enter the premises to defend yourself. If the resident feels his/her life is in mortal danger (in those states) the defender can shoot through the door before the perp(s) can successfully break in. I believe I just saw a tv report of an elderly lady who killed an intruder who was half-way into her home. The report said it was the very first time she'd ever fired her gun. I'm happy she was able to defend herself with no training.

Lindenwood
12-09-2011, 23:13
In all intermediate barriers, HP bullets really don't lose anything to FMJ bullets. Yeah, HPs might not expand as ideally after passing through a door or wall or especially glass, but they absolutely won't perform worse than FMJ. Even less-than-ideal expansion will still leave a more significant wound channel than ball ammo.

Basically, you don't gain anything by switching to FMJ regarding intermediate barrier penetration, but you LOSE a lot of terminal effectiveness in almost ALL cases by using FMJ over ball.

Bowtie
12-09-2011, 23:20
In some states it's not necessary to wait until the perp(s) fully enter the premises to defend yourself. If the resident feels his/her life is in mortal danger (in those states) the defender can shoot through the door before the perp(s) can successfully break in. I believe I just saw a tv report of an elderly lady who killed an intruder who was half-way into her home. The report said it was the very first time she'd ever fired her gun. I'm happy she was able to defend herself with no training.

off the top of my head I cant think of any states that requires full entry. BUT, if you cant see through the EXTERIOR door to see if its even a threat or someone running for life or your drunk neighbor thinking he's at home. You have no business shooting to begin with..I do agree, and happy she came out on the good end..

unit1069
12-09-2011, 23:20
Help me understand your way of thinking. Why would you carry a different HP in your mag? What will one do the the others will not?

One might be a light, higher velocity JHP round and the second a heavy bonded JHP. The first might be preferable in warm weather scenarios while the other preferable in cold weather.

I don't stagger ammo, if that's what you might be thinking. The only caliber I've read where that might make some sense is the pocket .380ACP pistols.

TxGlock9
12-09-2011, 23:24
I think we pretty much closed the argument on why staggering or using fmj for the OP's purpose is pretty useless.

Good advice on Bowtie.

Bowtie
12-09-2011, 23:25
One might be a light, higher velocity JHP round and the second a heavy bonded JHP. The first might be preferable in warm weather scenarios while the other preferable in cold weather.

I don't stagger ammo, if that's what you might be thinking. The only caliber I've read where that might make some sense is the pocket .380ACP pistols.

Yeah, I thought you staggered HP in the same mag..Thanks for clearing that up..

TxGlock9
12-09-2011, 23:26
One might be a light, higher velocity JHP round and the second a heavy bonded JHP. The first might be preferable in warm weather scenarios while the other preferable in cold weather.

I don't stagger ammo, if that's what you might be thinking. The only caliber I've read where that might make some sense is the pocket .380ACP pistols.

I'm assuming you don't watch the weather channel. lol

unit1069
12-09-2011, 23:32
off the top of my head I cant think of any states that requires full entry. BUT, if you cant see through the EXTERIOR door to see if its even a threat or someone running for life or your drunk neighbor thinking he's at home. You have no business shooting to begin with..I do agree, and happy she came out on the good end..

I'm sure you'll agree that the decision to rely on the last resort (firing a weapon) is best left up to the one having to make the decision. My own thoughts are a family member, neighbor, or law-abiding citizen isn't going to be breaking down a solid core front/back door by mistake.

And even if it turns out to be a drunk neighbor the frightened/threatened resident should not be held accountable for the negligent, violent actions of that neighbor. I don't think I've read of an incident where a family member was gunned down forcibly breaking into his/her own residence

unit1069
12-09-2011, 23:34
I'm assuming you don't watch the weather channel. lol

Where I live the change in weather isn't drastic enough for me to worry about carry ammo on a day-to-day basis.

Bowtie
12-09-2011, 23:38
I'm sure you'll agree that the decision to rely on the last resort (firing a weapon) is best left up to the one having to make the decision. My own thoughts are a family member, neighbor, or law-abiding citizen isn't going to be breaking down a solid core front/back door by mistake.

And even if it turns out to be a drunk neighbor the frightened/threatened resident should not be held accountable for the negligent, violent actions of that neighbor. I don't think I've read of an incident where a family member was gunned down forcibly breaking into his/her own residence

I think you misunderstood on the drunk neighbor thing..We had a guy in the area get shot because he was trying to open what he thought was his door and broke his key off..Wrong house! Anyway, off topic..Carry on..

TxGlock9
12-09-2011, 23:39
I got yah. I was just messing with you. It seemed at first that you were saying you have to constantly change ammo because of the variance in temperature day/night. lol ;)

gbhamm2
12-09-2011, 23:39
I love these threads, mostly to see the mindset of some people.

In all seriousness the only time I have different types of ammo is when I'm backpacking. Usually I put a FMJ in the pip with JHP in the mag and a back up mag of FMJ. The FMJ in the pip is for critters that I don't want to waste a JHP on and the rest of the mag is for the two legged type.

TxGlock9
12-09-2011, 23:42
I love these threads, mostly to see the mindset of some people.

In all seriousness the only time I have different types of ammo is when I'm backpacking. Usually I put a FMJ in the pip with JHP in the mag and a back up mag of FMJ. The FMJ in the pip is for critters that I don't want to waste a JHP on and the rest of the mag is for the two legged type.

Yeah the OP's justification wasn't sound at all.

To address your other concerns:

It is just a dollar though in the end. :dunno:

I used to kind of have that mentality where I wanted to "save" my "good" ammo. In the end, I took all that nonsense out and just use what will satisfy the job. None of that other unnecessary thinking. I do understand where you're coming from.

DJ Niner
12-10-2011, 00:02
I'm afraid I'm going to have to disagree with the consensus, here. My second magazine (when I carry one) is always filled with a well-tested high-penetration FMJ. My personal experience, after extensive testing (ah, the good old days, when I could walk around in a junkyard environment and shoot various things in near-perfect safety) is that certain FMJ loads have quite a bit more penetration in intermediate barriers than many folks would think, even when compared to bonded JHPs. This is especially true of the short-barreled guns, like my G26; even common sheet metal of about 1/16" thickness will defeat most/all JHPs from that weapon, but the hot FMJs will often blow right through.

I also take into account that I usually carry a high-capacity 9mm or .40, and if I haven't solved the problem with the first mag of 13-17 JHPs, that would probably be an indicator that I haven't been able to break contact OR neutralize the threat. Under these circumstances, I think a magazine of higher penetration ammo makes good sense; if the first dozen-plus rounds of JHPs haven't solved the problem, why would I think that another dozen rounds of the same load would do any better?

It's all about options; I want more, not less.


.

proguide
12-10-2011, 00:11
I've shot through windshields and car doors before on several occasions ( Gold Dots). My Department has a pretty comprehensive stressed tactical pistol course. There is an average of a 2.5 inch deflection rate directly to the drivers seat through the windshield with a .45. Quality ammo presents no real issues with vehicles. shooting through doors will get you in trouble. You own every round you send down the tube.

DJ Niner
12-10-2011, 00:25
I've shot through windshields and car doors before on several occasions ( Gold Dots). My Department has a pretty comprehensive stressed tactical pistol course. There is an average of a 2.5 inch deflection rate directly to the drivers seat through the windshield with a .45. Quality ammo presents no real issues with vehicles. shooting through doors will get you in trouble. You own every round you send down the tube.I don't see much that I would disagree with, here. But although I don't see myself needing to shoot through vehicles, I do see a potential need for ammo that has maximum possible penetration if a fight goes on for more than a few seconds. Vehicles are not my only concern, but I can see where they are a primary concern for L.E. people.

Does your department have a requirement that the duty load(s) must not be able to penetrate the soft vests issued to department personnel? It was my understanding that this used to be very common, just wondering about it.

puckhead
12-10-2011, 00:30
This thread is getting dumb

DJ Niner
12-10-2011, 00:39
This thread is getting dumbYeah, I think post #42 is where it really started to go downhill. :supergrin:

puckhead
12-10-2011, 00:41
Yeah, I think post #42 is where it really started to go downhill. :supergrin:

Damn, got me!

TxGlock9
12-10-2011, 00:51
http://thecafeallegro.com/randomthoughts/wp-content/uploads/2011/08/i-see-stupid-people.jpg


Back on topic:
I definitely see some interesting points coming up for carrying a secondary magazine full of FMJ rounds though.

happyguy
12-10-2011, 06:09
I CCW with JHP in my G36. And my spare mag full of FMJ. Just in case you need to punch thru something. Doors, windscreens....

Does anyone else do this?:dunno:

Good JHP's will go through all that just fine.

As a matter of fact FMJ is more likely to skip off an object if it hits at an angle than JHP.

Regards,
Happyguy :)

PolymerPackin
12-10-2011, 06:23
I live at the base of the Sierra Nevada Mountains and find myself in the mountains often enough. I carry Gold Dots for EDC. And keep a spare mag in the car of FMJ, and switch to FMJ for when I'm outdoors and have potential run-ins with bears etc.... Never felt the need to switch for any other reason

Hour13
12-10-2011, 06:24
I definitely see some interesting points coming up for carrying a secondary magazine full of FMJ rounds though.


The problem is, it's another case of overthinking things, and assuming that a particular round is actually going to do what it's designed to do. Do HPs expand every time they hit meat? No. Can FMJs glance off a windshield? Yup.

That being said, modern Bonded JHPs offer a nice balance. Reliable(mostly) expansion, and barrier penetration ability. My carry gun is loaded with Ranger BJHPs. My nightstand gun is packed with Hornaday Critical Defense, because I DON'T want barrier penetration at home.

However, if you REALLY want to stagger your rounds...

http://i306.photobucket.com/albums/nn269/hour13/gun%20stuff/100_4207.jpg

:supergrin:

Bill Lumberg
12-10-2011, 06:33
No. .

I CCW with JHP in my G36. And my spare mag full of FMJ. Just in case you need to punch thru something. Doors, windscreens....

Does anyone else do this?:dunno:

JackMac
12-10-2011, 06:41
yep sure do

Glockworks
12-10-2011, 06:51
The OP never said anything anout staggering his ammo, he did say he carries one mag of hp's and one mag of fmj's...makes sense to me, whatever floats your boat!

But I agree, anyone who does stagger their ammunition is just a plain ol silly mall-ninja!

The only staggering that ever made even a little bit of sense to me was when someone said that the first round in their mags is one type, and all the rest is another...I cant remember exactly what the orientation was, but it did make sense at the time he told me about it...
I read here awhile ago where someone said they keep a HP in their barrel and the rest at FMJ. Reason they gave was less chance of failure to load with whatever follows the HP.

Opie 1 Kenopie
12-10-2011, 07:29
I'm afraid I'm going to have to disagree with the consensus, here. My second magazine (when I carry one) is always filled with a well-tested high-penetration FMJ. My personal experience, after extensive testing (ah, the good old days, when I could walk around in a junkyard environment and shoot various things in near-perfect safety) is that certain FMJ loads have quite a bit more penetration in intermediate barriers than many folks would think, even when compared to bonded JHPs. This is especially true of the short-barreled guns, like my G26; even common sheet metal of about 1/16" thickness will defeat most/all JHPs from that weapon, but the hot FMJs will often blow right through.

I also take into account that I usually carry a high-capacity 9mm or .40, and if I haven't solved the problem with the first mag of 13-17 JHPs, that would probably be an indicator that I haven't been able to break contact OR neutralize the threat. Under these circumstances, I think a magazine of higher penetration ammo makes good sense; if the first dozen-plus rounds of JHPs haven't solved the problem, why would I think that another dozen rounds of the same load would do any better?

It's all about options; I want more, not less.


.

DJ, you DO realize that your argument for FMJ is for the barrier penetration, right? Well taking that into account, most violent encounters do NOT involve barriers, but DO involve soft tissue. I see OVERPENETRATION as a major concern when carrying only FMJ. you are much more likely to have to shoot at some thug in a dark alley or at a midnight ATM then through a car door or wall of your house.

The reason the SD culture has gone to HP ammo is to PREVENT over penetration while improving terminal ballistics. Carrying a mag of FMJ in a populated location is irresponsible. jHPs will do the job, but will be more likely to stop before passing through someone into someone else. The ONLY time it can be justified is for rural or mountain hiking like Chico up there.

JuneyBooney
12-10-2011, 07:31
Mostly hollow points but i have carried frangible also.

1canvas
12-10-2011, 07:35
one thing to concider is that often times rounds will miss the intended target in SD situations. i wouldn't want those flyers out of my gun or yours to be FMJs.

SCmasterblaster
12-10-2011, 08:10
I carry WW 115gr JHP+p+ in my G17 + reload. These rounds will penetrate enough, @1400 FPS, through anything if needed.

Opie 1 Kenopie
12-10-2011, 08:14
I carry WW 115gr JHP+p+ in my G17 + reload. These rounds will penetrate enough, @1400 FPS, through anything if needed.

Exactly. Nuff said.

Rockimook
12-10-2011, 08:21
Yup. For no reason other than I like both brands of ammo. Speer Gold Dot in my G30sf. With a spare mag of Pow'R Ball. Third mag of my favorite range round (on the rare occasions that I carry two spares), Federal. Absolutely no tactical or practical reason. It just happened one day and I left it that way.

ArmoryDoc
12-10-2011, 08:49
One ammo throughout. Hollow points. If you need extra oomph, use +P's. Ball ammo in defense is a problem waiting to happen with over penetration and ricochet.

RYT 2BER
12-10-2011, 08:58
I also take into account that I usually carry a high-capacity 9mm or .40, and if I haven't solved the problem with the first mag of 13-17 JHPs, that would probably be an indicator that I haven't been able to break contact OR neutralize the threat. Under these circumstances, I think a magazine of higher penetration ammo makes good sense; if the first dozen-plus rounds of JHPs haven't solved the problem, why would I think that another dozen rounds of the same load would do any better?

It's all about options; I want more, not less.


.

Not to worry ... if the "dozens" of rounds you've dumped didn't do the trick I'm "fairly" certain you'd be dead and the point would be moot...:upeyes: :whistling: I'm assuming you live in Mogadishu?

proguide
12-10-2011, 09:02
I don't see much that I would disagree with, here. But although I don't see myself needing to shoot through vehicles, I do see a potential need for ammo that has maximum possible penetration if a fight goes on for more than a few seconds. Vehicles are not my only concern, but I can see where they are a primary concern for L.E. people.

Does your department have a requirement that the duty load(s) must not be able to penetrate the soft vests issued to department personnel? It was my understanding that this used to be very common, just wondering about it.

No, not a requirement.

DeLo
12-10-2011, 09:25
Do you practice with your mags loaded like that??

G36Bell
12-10-2011, 09:37
I'm afraid I'm going to have to disagree with the consensus, here. My second magazine (when I carry one) is always filled with a well-tested high-penetration FMJ. My personal experience, after extensive testing (ah, the good old days, when I could walk around in a junkyard environment and shoot various things in near-perfect safety) is that certain FMJ loads have quite a bit more penetration in intermediate barriers than many folks would think, even when compared to bonded JHPs. This is especially true of the short-barreled guns, like my G26; even common sheet metal of about 1/16" thickness will defeat most/all JHPs from that weapon, but the hot FMJs will often blow right through.

I also take into account that I usually carry a high-capacity 9mm or .40, and if I haven't solved the problem with the first mag of 13-17 JHPs, that would probably be an indicator that I haven't been able to break contact OR neutralize the threat. Under these circumstances, I think a magazine of higher penetration ammo makes good sense; if the first dozen-plus rounds of JHPs haven't solved the problem, why would I think that another dozen rounds of the same load would do any better?

It's all about options; I want more, not less.


.

I concur....:whistling:

G36Bell
12-10-2011, 09:51
Do you practice with your mags loaded like that??

Use to...but .45 HP get a little pricey to practice with. But I still do simulate with mag drops on a walking course on a 20 acre plot. Plastic targets get HP (simulated) and steel targets, switch to FMJ. Same thing with my tach shotgun. Walk thru with steel buck shot. When you get to a target with cinder block, you switch to a 1 inch slug and shatter the block.

just a shooter
12-10-2011, 09:54
I have always used jhp when cc but that's a good idea to carry the spare mag with fmj just for those reasons...

A) if you have the time to change mags for different obsticles you have time to get the "F" out of there.

B)shooting through doors (in a house) is bad juju (target identification) and a waste of ammo.

C) shooting through car doors JHP does just fine in relation to FMJ. it either works or doesn't, neither has a clear advantage do to all the variable factors when using handgun ammo against car bodies.

I've seen JHP go clean through a car, both doors and glass, and I've seen FMJ stick into the first inside panel of the target side of the car. in, 9,40,45, .38spl.

the only ones that made a difference was .357 mag out of a 4 inch bbl and .44 mag in similar guns.

even 5.56 is sporadic, with a wild range of events going on with that one.

only 7.62 and up are consistent performers in cars.

carry rounds that perform best in your gun and on people, the rest is internet folklore.

G36Bell
12-10-2011, 10:00
Just to clear things up. My CC is a G36. This is a short barrel, .45, standard ammo. Sub-sonic/large cal ammo does a nice job on flesh. Not so good on hard targets. My G17 works fine for that. This info was more trained towards the CC and having the option to push thru a hardened target if needed. After the JHP fails to deliver.....

Thanks to all for their input.

Spiffums
12-10-2011, 11:50
Get yourself a 10mm if your worried about a door. Problem solved :thumbsup:

Yeah if you want to remove the door, the front of the house, the porch, the trees in the yard and most of the cars parked in the street.


If you are really worried about having to defeat a barrier just carry a bonded HP round.

happyguy
12-10-2011, 12:15
I'm afraid I'm going to have to disagree with the consensus, here. My second magazine (when I carry one) is always filled with a well-tested high-penetration FMJ. My personal experience, after extensive testing (ah, the good old days, when I could walk around in a junkyard environment and shoot various things in near-perfect safety) is that certain FMJ loads have quite a bit more penetration in intermediate barriers than many folks would think, even when compared to bonded JHPs. This is especially true of the short-barreled guns, like my G26; even common sheet metal of about 1/16" thickness will defeat most/all JHPs from that weapon, but the hot FMJs will often blow right through.

I also take into account that I usually carry a high-capacity 9mm or .40, and if I haven't solved the problem with the first mag of 13-17 JHPs, that would probably be an indicator that I haven't been able to break contact OR neutralize the threat. Under these circumstances, I think a magazine of higher penetration ammo makes good sense; if the first dozen-plus rounds of JHPs haven't solved the problem, why would I think that another dozen rounds of the same load would do any better?

It's all about options; I want more, not less.


.
Any ammo that passes the FBI test protocol has to pass the following:

Test Event 3: Steel Two pieces of 20 gauge, hot rolled steel with a galvanized finish are set three inches apart. The steel is in six inch squares. The gelatin block is covered with Light Clothing and placed 18 inches behind the rear most piece of steel. The shot is made at a distance of 10 feet measured from the muzzle to the front of the first piece of steel. Light Clothing is one layer of the above described T-shirt material and one layer of the above described cotton shirt material, and is used as indicated in all subsequent test events.

The steel used is the heaviest gauge steel commonly found in automobile doors. This test simulates the weakest part of a car door. In all car doors, there is an area, or areas, where the heaviest obstacle is nothing more that two pieces of 20 gauge steel.

Even the lowly non-bonded Winchester RA380T 95 grain .380 acp penetrates 9.3 inches of gelatin after passing through those two pieces of steel.

Regards,
Happyguy :)

Warp
12-10-2011, 12:25
No. Sure don't.

Now, sometimes I will have a different round in my spare mag than in my primary but they will still be of the same type...just different brands or weights and not for any particular reason other than my having multiple rounds in that caliber I trust enough to load/carry.

DJ Niner
12-10-2011, 15:08
DJ, you DO realize that your argument for FMJ is for the barrier penetration, right?Um, yes. That's pretty much what the whole thread is about.
Well taking that into account, most violent encounters do NOT involve barriers, but DO involve soft tissue. I see OVERPENETRATION as a major concern when carrying only FMJ. you are much more likely to have to shoot at some thug in a dark alley or at a midnight ATM then through a car door or wall of your house. I never said I carried ONLY FMJ; not sure where you got that from. Please re-read my response you quoted; the FMJs are in a second magazine.
The reason the SD culture has gone to HP ammo is to PREVENT over penetration while improving terminal ballistics. Carrying a mag of FMJ in a populated location is irresponsible. jHPs will do the job, but will be more likely to stop before passing through someone into someone else. The ONLY time it can be justified is for rural or mountain hiking like Chico up there.Actually, I am fully aware of all of the above, and strangely enough, the current crop of bonded high-penetration HPs are one of the reasons I carry the ammo I do. My first mag has HPs that are specifically selected to be on the low end of the penetration scale, as I think the heavier, more heavily constructed bullets, and especially +P ammo is more likely to over-penetrate many SOFT targets. It is because I am VERY concerned with over-penetration that my first gun-load of ammo would probably be considered under-penetrative by most modern standards (not frangible, but lightweight for the caliber and NOT bonded for deep penetration). I know it's a dated concept, but I want my loads to stop in the bad guy without exiting -- I'll take my chances with potential under-penetration and all its associated dangers to me, in order to reduce the chances of over- or full-penetration of a target, and the associated dangers to others. If that approach fails, however, I want to go full speed in the other direction, for the reasons already indicated. Even then, the FMJs I carry are lighter than normal, so while they have very good hard-barrier penetration, they DON'T penetrate as deeply in soft targets as a heavy FMJ, or even a mid-weight +P FMJ load.

I suppose that I should re-do my testing with the current crop of high-tech loads to make sure my original conclusions are still valid. However, given all the data floating around, I see no reason to compromise on a single load which is probably a great stopper but will exit many (most?) soft targets, endangering other folks, when I can carry two loads that will minimize penetration at first, and maximize it later, in the extremely unlikely case it is needed.


.

DJ Niner
12-10-2011, 15:22
one thing to concider is that often times rounds will miss the intended target in SD situations. i wouldn't want those flyers out of my gun or yours to be FMJs.If you mean "miss" as in "I missed the intended target completely, and hit another person", then I don't think it matters; you're screwed no matter WHAT load you were carrying.

If you mean "miss" as in "I missed the intended target completely, and the bullet went on to ricochet off a hard surface and hit someone", then the primary load I use (lighter, non-bonded HP) is more likely than any of the bonded HPs or heavier JHPs to break-up on first contract with a hard surface. The lighter bullet will also shed velocity more quickly if it doesn't hit anything at all, making for a shorter overall downrange danger zone.

DJ Niner
12-10-2011, 15:34
Any ammo that passes the FBI test protocol has to pass the following:

Test Event 3: Steel Two pieces of 20 gauge, hot rolled steel with a galvanized finish are set three inches apart. The steel is in six inch squares. The gelatin block is covered with Light Clothing and placed 18 inches behind the rear most piece of steel. The shot is made at a distance of 10 feet measured from the muzzle to the front of the first piece of steel. Light Clothing is one layer of the above described T-shirt material and one layer of the above described cotton shirt material, and is used as indicated in all subsequent test events.

The steel used is the heaviest gauge steel commonly found in automobile doors. This test simulates the weakest part of a car door. In all car doors, there is an area, or areas, where the heaviest obstacle is nothing more that two pieces of 20 gauge steel.

Even the lowly non-bonded Winchester RA380T 95 grain .380 acp penetrates 9.3 inches of gelatin after passing through those two pieces of steel.

Regards,
Happyguy :)This IS interesting, and if there is a link you can provide that lists the comparitive performance of many different 9mm and .40 loads in this type of test, I'd sure like to get it and do some reading.

On the surface, though, I'd say any barrier that a .380 can pass through and still go 9 inches into a gel block, isn't the type of barrier I'm concerned about.

Slightly off-topic: The .380 did that from a short barrel of the type that is commonly seen/used in deep concealment/carry? Or a longer near-duty-length gun? Pretty amazing if it's the former...

DJ Niner
12-10-2011, 15:48
Not to worry ... if the "dozens" of rounds you've dumped didn't do the trick I'm "fairly" certain you'd be dead and the point would be moot...:upeyes: :whistling: I'm assuming you live in Mogadishu?Dozen-plus is not the same as "dozens" -- it was intended as another way to express the 13-17 round figure I had already used. Sorry if it confused you.

Actually, I live in one of the safest areas of the safest states in the U.S. -- if there IS such a thing. Even here, stuff happens. If you're preparing/training based on what happened last week/month/year/decade (where the statistics came from), you're already behind the curve, IMO.

happyguy
12-10-2011, 15:50
This IS interesting, and if there is a link you can provide that lists the comparitive performance of many different 9mm and .40 loads in this type of test, I'd sure like to get it and do some reading.

On the surface, though, I'd say any barrier that a .380 can pass through and still go 9 inches into a gel block, isn't the type of barrier I'm concerned about.

Slightly off-topic: The .380 did that from a short barrel of the type that is commonly seen/used in deep concealment/carry? Or a longer near-duty-length gun? Pretty amazing if it's the former...

I suspect the .380 is from a full size weapon but I'm just speculating.

Here's some Winchester test data. It is pretty comprehensive but it only compares Winchester to Winchester. It does highlight the difference between bonded versus un-bonded ammo performance.

http://winchesterle.com/SiteCollectionDocuments/pdf/Handgun%20Bullet%20Barrier%20Testing%20Protocol.pdf

It's a rather large .pdf file so it will take a while to load.

Also, the actual FBI test protocol is here:

http://greent.com/40Page/general/fbitest.htm

I was forwarded the test results of another Winchester gel shoot that included the PDX-1 .38 Special +P load out of a Smith 642:

Cloth test:
.38 - 886fps/13 1/4" pen/.53" exp
127gr +P+ - 1203fps/12"/.63"
147gr - 927fps/14"/.58"

Drywall:
.38 - 891fps/10 3/4"/.53"
127gr +P+ - 1199fps/11 1/4"/.59"
147gr - 925fps/13"/.52"

Laminated Auto Glass:
.38 - No vel reading/7 3/4"/.52"
127gr +P+ - 1196fps/7 1/4"/.51"
147gr - 939fps/9"/.47"

These results were a bit different out of a 2 inch J-frame when you compare them to the data Winchester published which I think is from a 6 inch barrel.

It would be nice if there was a centralized location that collected data from all the tests that are conducted but alas, there is not. It is my understanding that the FBI only releases the results of their testing to police departments.

And as always, these tests are just a small part of the puzzle.

Regards,
Happyguy :)

DJ Niner
12-10-2011, 15:57
A) if you have the time to change mags for different obsticles you have time to get the "F" out of there.Dude, you must run like the wind, and reload like molasses flowing in January. :supergrin:
Based on this concept, there would NEVER be a valid reason to carry a second mag, right?

B)shooting through doors (in a house) is bad juju (target identification) and a waste of ammo. Agree with the first part, not necessarily with the second (a lot of factors in this; hard to support blanket statements of this type).

C) shooting through car doors JHP does just fine in relation to FMJ. it either works or doesn't, neither has a clear advantage do to all the variable factors when using handgun ammo against car bodies.

I've seen JHP go clean through a car, both doors and glass, and I've seen FMJ stick into the first inside panel of the target side of the car. in, 9,40,45, .38spl.

the only ones that made a difference was .357 mag out of a 4 inch bbl and .44 mag in similar guns.

even 5.56 is sporadic, with a wild range of events going on with that one.

only 7.62 and up are consistent performers in cars.Yup, placement is still King, no matter if the target is soft or hard.

DJ Niner
12-10-2011, 15:59
happyguy, thanks for the links/info!

Lior
12-11-2011, 02:04
My police duty belt has a mag of FMJ in case 34 JHPs don't get the message home.

cadillacguns
12-11-2011, 05:13
Federal makes EFMJ, buy some, problem solved.(Unless they DON"T make it in .45 acp)

beatcop
12-11-2011, 06:07
Op- you're saying your ammo is stopping on 1" plywood?

Doesn't sound right....

I have stacked 2x4's up to stop a round, years ago, but recall the rounds going through at least three or four...at least...

H&K 4 LIFE
12-11-2011, 06:16
Lets see....a car jacker has you in a parking lot. You stuck in your car, he has a gun pointed at you head. Are you going to say hold on let me roll down the window.

Some one has broke into your house and has you cornered in a back upstairs bed room. They are smashing the door in .....

You get the idea.:dunno:

I'd offer up the idea that surviving these types of scenarios have a lot more to do with what you do and how you react to the situation then they do with what type of ammo you have at your disposal.

JBL13
12-11-2011, 06:32
I carry different types of rounds when I carry one of my .357 Magnum revolvers -- hollow points (typically in the gun by default), Buffalo Bore 180-grain hard-cast, and CCI shot shells (I spend time in the mountains fairly regularly).

BamaTrooper
12-11-2011, 06:38
Besides, shoot ball ammo through an interior door and miss? Your neighbors are not going to appreciate that one..

...if you live close and have wooden/thin walls.

Jake Starr
12-11-2011, 06:39
Most PDs and the FBI have one specific load that is their only approved duty ammo. Mostly because it works and liability issues. I see no reason to mix and match.

I carry all the same ammo in my guns. But I always have some ball ammo somewhere handy too.

just a shooter
12-11-2011, 08:13
Yup, placement is still King, no matter if the target is soft or hard.

Granted, and also of note, bullets, (especially FMJ) deflected unpredictably when shooting through obstacles such as car doors. not wildly mind you, but in ways that were not always consistent.

and unless you train significantly by shooting through obstacles, you think you will encounter, one is only guessing at the performance of the round they are carrying and may have some false illusions as to it's performance.

as stated above, I have shot through many an automobile in training.

my conclusion is handgun rounds suck against car, no matter the make model or caliber of ammo.

I suppose 10mm would fare batter but I don't know any police departments that carry 10mm, (which was the reason for the testing), and as mentioned above, .357 did a little better, but not by much.

mind you these were informal tests and admittedly anecdotal, but unless you do the tests yourself, you're just swimming in internet soup.

if you're serious, go buy a car from a junk yard, (I bought mine for $250, and he hauled it to the range and back to the junk yard included) and get a bunch of serious buddies to pitch in on the cost, and go shoot a car.

it will open your eyes and mind and maybe put you in better understanding of defense of your life.

just a shooter
12-11-2011, 08:16
My police duty belt has a mag of FMJ in case 34 JHPs don't get the message home.

I see you state Israel as your location. I don't know of many departments in AMERICA that allow FMJ on their duty carry.

YMMV

Bowtie
12-11-2011, 09:47
...if you live close and have wooden/thin walls.

WWB and federal HST 230+p went through both doors on a 1955 Buick and kept going.. Id hardly call those door wooden thin

slickt0mmy
12-11-2011, 11:36
It might just be me but it seems like some people are over-thinking things. Any good, proven JHP round is going to ruin the perp's day no matter what the weather is or any other nonsensical variables you want to introduce.

2740dmx
12-11-2011, 16:30
Revolver carry: I load with .38+P, and like the short casings to eject easier.
My reload is .357 magnum, which find the cylinder holes a bit faster, due to their length!

G36Bell
12-11-2011, 17:59
Op- you're saying your ammo is stopping on 1" plywood?

Doesn't sound right....

I have stacked 2x4's up to stop a round, years ago, but recall the rounds going through at least three or four...at least...

Yep 2 out of 25 rounds Federal hydro shock 230gr did not pass all the way thru. Just bulged out the back side of the wood. I looked to see if there was a knot or something in that part of the wood, but nothing. Maybe just a few crap rounds in the box. I don't know.:dunno:

Bowtie
12-11-2011, 18:09
Yep 2 out of 25 rounds Federal hydro shock 230gr did not pass all the way thru. Just bulged out the back side of the wood. I looked to see if there was a knot or something in that part of the wood, but nothing. Maybe just a few crap rounds in the box. I don't know.:dunno:

I'd say crap rounds..As i said earlier, I put Federal HST 230+p through the drivers door and out the passenger door of a 50's Buick. That's real steel not this BS on today's cars.

happyguy
12-11-2011, 18:10
Yep 2 out of 25 rounds Federal hydro shock 230gr did not pass all the way thru. Just bulged out the back side of the wood. I looked to see if there was a knot or something in that part of the wood, but nothing. Maybe just a few crap rounds in the box. I don't know.:dunno:

If it's the personal protection stuff they used to sell as opposed to the LE ammo it is pretty weak and there is a lot better ammo out there. I recall it having a lot of muzzle flash too.

Regards,
Happyguy :)

owl6roll
12-11-2011, 18:24
Nope, not me.

Darkangel1846
12-11-2011, 21:05
I CCW with JHP in my G36. And my spare mag full of FMJ. Just in case you need to punch thru something. Doors, windscreens....

Does anyone else do this?:dunno:

UPDATE: I don't stagger rounds in my hand guns. Just carry FMJ in my spare mag.
I have shot Federal Hydro shocks a 1 inch thick plywood and it has stopped the round and bulged the back out of the board.

When I was young and inexpierenced I use to do that, but numerous training course over decades has taught me not to do that. I don't need to shoot through doors because I cannot see my target. You only shoot when you have a target. Any other fire is just to keep their heads down while I run away.:wavey:

Allsmk_nomirror
12-11-2011, 21:19
I myself carry 10mm so my two choices of ammo are the federal hydra-shok I use this more for an urban environment where this round works best to my advantage. The hydra-shok is more of a lite round for the 10mm, and my second choice is the 135gr. PowerBall, just something with a bit more velocity. For woods carry I'd go with the XTP 200gr from Hornady, or the buffalo bore 180gr.

BamaTrooper
12-12-2011, 08:34
When I was young and inexpierenced I use to do that, but numerous training course over decades has taught me not to do that. I don't need to shoot through doors because I cannot see my target. You only shoot when you have a target. Any other fire is just to keep their heads down while I run away.:wavey:

What if you had one of the part window/part door doors or a half door? To only shoot at the head/arms sticking over the door limits the target area.

Not questioning FMJ/HP choice, just pointing out the "never say never" idea.

BamaTrooper
12-12-2011, 09:18
WWB and federal HST 230+p went through both doors on a 1955 Buick and kept going.. Id hardly call those door wooden thin

Did they keep going and strike the target? Maybe frangible bullets would be best for indoor? Who knows. Hell, if a bullet can go through the car door, it can go through a person.

On over penetration, having the perfect back stop isn't always possible, missing is always possible. Having to use your gun opens you to a lot of IFs and no one on hear has all the answers :dunno:

wjv
12-12-2011, 11:10
Lets see....a car jacker has you in a parking lot. You stuck in your car, he has a gun pointed at you head. Are you going to say hold on let me roll down the window.

Some one has broke into your house and has you cornered in a back upstairs bed room. They are smashing the door in .....

Sit #1: You will be shooting fairly perpendicular to the window. No real problems with the JHP penetrating.

Sit #2: I've shot (not on purpose) THROUGH wall board and THROUGH interior doors with a pellet gun! A JHP will not be stopped by a basically hollow interior door.

BTW: If your ever in a gun fight and the person is hiding behind and to the side of a doorway, just shoot through the wall where you think they're standing. . Even a .22 will penetrate and hit the person.

RichM
12-12-2011, 14:02
The top rounds in all of my spare carry mags are FMJ.
Everything else is Corbon DPX or Gold Dots.

In a stressful reload situation, the FMJ just 'may' be a little more 'jam proof'.

voiceofreason
12-17-2011, 17:27
If carrying more than 2 mags, the 3rd extra mag is loaded with FMJ for penetration purposes. Usually on a setup that is NOT for CC, like on a first line belt.

SJ 40
12-17-2011, 18:28
Either of two types Golden Sabers or Gold Dots,good to go. SJ 40

HOUSTON
12-18-2011, 15:36
I carry a G-29. 1 mag with JHP that are fast, in the 2nd mag, JHP that are faster.:cool:

barth
12-18-2011, 17:16
I CCW with JHP in my G36. And my spare mag full of FMJ. Just in case you need to punch thru something. Doors, windscreens....

Does anyone else do this?:dunno:

UPDATE: I don't stagger rounds in my hand guns. Just carry FMJ in my spare mag.
I have shot Federal Hydro shocks a 1 inch thick plywood and it has stopped the round and bulged the back out of the board.

Decades ago people stacked like that.
New High Tech bonded bullets don't have jacket core separation and penetrate barriers like FMJs.

This is 38 snub nose FBI protocol test results with Speer GDHP bonded:
http://www.speer-ammo.com/products/bullet_tests.htm

The word is obsolete...

11A
12-18-2011, 19:16
I've only ever alternated rounds in my duty rifle and that was a 1:1 mix of green tip and tracers. If I ever needed to get off the radio and start shooting I wanted my men to see exactly what I was shooting at.

I agree with what some have said here; a FMJ has a good chance of passing through a person without dissipating a lot of energy. Some will argue this point, but a lot of our guys over seas will personally attest to making multiple hits on a combatant with the combatant staying in the fight for a while.

I prefer two mags of JHP for SD.


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Dragster
12-21-2011, 18:55
I stagger JHP/FMJ in all my mags
That's what I do also. Just makes sense because you never know what's in or under the clothing.