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backcast88
12-11-2011, 07:35
Yesterday I posed the question of Gold Dot 124+p for my Sig 228 and soon to purchase G26 gen 4 and got a lot good responses. I have since found that Federal makes a 147+p and that really intrigues me but have not found a ton of info on the round. Does anybody have any experience with this round? I know it will be good in the 228 but how do you think it will fair out of a G26?

G21MAN
12-11-2011, 08:41
Tennesee Outdoors tested both the +P and the standard pressure round. The +P lacked penetration, but had more expansion. Google TNoutdoors and the 147 grain hst on youtube.

unit1069
12-11-2011, 10:15
I don't favor 147-grain in 9mm, but I can tell you those who do claim the standard pressure 147-grain HST does exactly what they want it to do, even in the short-barrel pistols.

dkf
12-11-2011, 10:35
The 147 grain standard or +P works fine in short barrels. (not that the G26 is that short) The 147 rounds usually lose less velocity in shorter barrels than their lighter 115gr and 124gr brothers. The 147+p is more difficult to find than the standard pressure version. I would carry either.

NG VI
12-11-2011, 12:33
They penetrate decently enough and expand like nothing else out there. They are consistent, feed well, and do everything any sane person could ever ask of a service pistol load.

cangler
12-11-2011, 13:20
You can't go wrong with either the 147 +p HST or 147 HST, both the best PD load ive seen from testing... IMO.

backcast88
12-11-2011, 13:23
You can't go wrong with either the 147 +p HST or 147 HST, both the best PD load ive seen from testing... IMO.
I do like what I see from both the standard 147 and the +p and I was going to try the 147 HST but every place is sold out but several have the +p for the same price for I figure what the heck, same bullet with a little more velocity. I don't see a down side.

cangler
12-11-2011, 13:29
The only place I've seen it is from kylesgunshop.com but yeah it looks like the regular 147 HST is sold out at the moment. I'm sure he has more coming, it sales well.

Tiro Fijo
12-11-2011, 14:10
HST is a great round, but if you want the best get DPX. The Barnes solid copper HP's are in a league of their own. :wavey:

SouthernBoyVA
12-11-2011, 15:31
The Federal HST 147gr 9mm +P load is one of my two prime carry rounds.

ABNAK
12-11-2011, 16:37
The Federal HST 147gr 9mm +P load is one of my two prime carry rounds.

It is my PRIMARY 9mm carry load in my G19 (getting 1021fps average per my chrono). I think the +P would still do well in a 3.5" barrel. I'd guesstimate that it would put you in the velocity range of the standard pressure load out of a 4" barrel.

DEADEYEGUY
12-11-2011, 23:54
I lean more towads the middle weights in +P or +P+ form. But I just got 150 rounds of the Federal HST 147gr. +P rounds after reading a ton of good things about them. All I can say is that all the test medium I've shot them through they opened up to a honkin big .70+ caliber and got good penetration. I still like my Winchester Ranger 127gr. +P+ rounds and the Federal HST 124gr. +P's. But I wouldn't and won't hesitate to carry these in my guns that like the 147gr. rounds better.

adamc
12-13-2011, 16:04
I wouldn't fell underarmed with HST 147's, but I prefer the Ranger 127+P+. It gets within 50 fps of 357 sig velocities and has adequate penetration.

tonymctones
12-13-2011, 20:31
Heavy bullets get the job done and hst's 147 grain are the Cadillac of heavy.

voiceofreason
12-17-2011, 18:38
Just run at least 3 or 4 boxes of 50rds each through your gun to check for reliability.

I believe 124-147 in Ranger Talon, HST, Gold Dot, would be fine.

backcast88
12-17-2011, 19:54
I shot 50 rounds of 124+p and 147+p HST out of my 228 and it was 100% reliable. The 147+p had less felt recoil and seemed to be slightly more accurate. I ordered the ammo from Kyle's Gun Shop Monday and the ammo showed up Wednesday. I will be ordering more of the 147+p HST and regular 147 HST when he has more in stock.

cowboy1964
12-20-2011, 17:02
I wouldn't fell underarmed with HST 147's, but I prefer the Ranger 127+P+. It gets within 50 fps of 357 sig velocities and has adequate penetration.

Winchester's quoted velocities are 1350 and 1250.

9mmParabellum
12-20-2011, 17:20
The 147gr in 9mm has never really had a good street rep bullet weights in 115-127gr have been better. In 9mm I carry Corbon 115gr JHP.

ABNAK
12-21-2011, 05:55
The 147gr in 9mm has never really had a good street rep bullet weights in 115-127gr have been better. In 9mm I carry Corbon 115gr JHP.

Always felt the same way until the last couple years. After reading a good deal about the newer bullet designs (such as HST) and seeing the recommendations it has changed my mind.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong but isn't the 147gr HST (I like it in +P) one of the better current 9mm loads available?

JBP55
12-21-2011, 06:56
The 147gr in 9mm has never really had a good street rep bullet weights in 115-127gr have been better. In 9mm I carry Corbon 115gr JHP.

Things have changed in recent years with the newer ammunition.

beforeobamabans
12-21-2011, 07:16
I have function tested Federal Classic 147 and Ranger-T 147 through my G26 with no issues. However, I carry HST 124+p in this gun.

backcast88
12-21-2011, 10:00
Out of my 228 and my dad's LC9 the 147 +p shot the best. The 124+p had a different poi which can be fixed but the recoil was softer and made follow up shots and sight acquisition easier. If the 147+p shoots as well as it does in my 228 then it will be my carry load.

The Retired Sarge
12-21-2011, 10:05
Gun writers and self proclaimed experts who worship velocity alone have spread the bad rap of the 147gr 9mm for years. Track records, street creds, and assorted "data" are often allured to. But who in main stream law enforcement is tabulating these alleged records? Ask any of the major ammo companies executives which 9mm loading they drop ship to police departments the most and they will all say 147gr by far. It works very well for the men and women in uniform that actually engage bad guys on a daily basis. Above all, choose what works best for you and what you have confidence in. Bill

hotpig
12-21-2011, 10:50
The 147gr in 9mm has never really had a good street rep bullet weights in 115-127gr have been better. In 9mm I carry Corbon 115gr JHP.Flashback to the 1980's and early 90's.

Glockwork Orange
12-21-2011, 11:14
The 147gr in 9mm has never really had a good street rep bullet weights in 115-127gr have been better. In 9mm I carry Corbon 115gr JHP.



20 year old information, not the same problem anymore...

cowboy1964
12-21-2011, 13:18
Ask any of the major ammo companies executives which 9mm loading they drop ship to police departments the most and they will all say 147gr by far.

Gold Dot 124+P may still be the single most popular 9mm load though.

JEEPX
12-21-2011, 13:29
Love the 147gr +p HST.
It has proven 100% reliable out of P2000, P9, CW9, and CM9.

The 147gr is supposed to be best for short barrels. The Kahrs have 3.5" and 3" barrels respectively.

Sent from my DROID2 using Xparent Cyan Tapatalk

Tiro Fijo
12-21-2011, 15:02
HST 147 gr. is nothing spectacular. Look for yourself:

Fed HST 124 gr +P JHP (P9HST3) fired from G17 at ave vel of 1208 f/s; 5 shot ave below:
BG: Pen = 12.2", Ave RD = 0.64", Ave RL = 0.38", Ave RW = 123.8gr
4LD: Pen = 14.4", Ave RD = 0.53", Ave RL = 0.39", Ave RW = 124.1 gr
AG: Pen = 14.2", Ave RD = 0.46", Ave RL = 0.50", Ave RW = 123.0 gr

Rem Golden Saber 124 gr +P bonded JHP (GSB9MMD) fired from G17 at ave vel of 1188 f/s; 5 shot ave below::
BG: Pen = 12.6", Ave RD = 0.59", Ave RL = 0.37", Ave RW = 123.0 gr
4LD: Pen = 15.9", Ave RD = 0.55", Ave RL = 0.41", Ave RW = 124.1 gr
AG: Pen = 14.2", Ave RD = 0.46", Ave RL = 0.50", Ave RW = 123.8 gr

Fed HST 147 gr JHP (P9HST2) fired from G17 at ave vel of 1014 f/s; 5 shot ave below:
BG: Pen = 12.2", Ave RD = 0.63", Ave RL = 0.39", Ave RW = 147.5 gr
4LD: Pen = 15.4", Ave RD = 0.53", Ave RL = 0.50", Ave RW = 147.2 gr
AG: Pen = 13.0", Ave RD = 0.50", Ave RL = 0.59", Ave RW = 143.6 gr

9 mm Speer 124 gr JHP Gold Dot (53618) fired from G17 at ave vel of 1149 f/s; 5 shot ave below:
BG: Pen = 13.0", RD = 0.62", RL = 0.32", RW = 125.5 gr
4LD: Pen = 16.6", RD = 0.51", RL=0.43", RW = 125.2 gr

9 mm Speer 124 gr +P JHP Gold Dot (53617) fired from G17 at ave vel of 1232 f/s; 5 shot ave below:
BG: Pen = 12.0", RD = 0.67", RL = 0.30", RW = 124.2 gr
4LD: Pen = 13.0", RD = 0.54", RL= 0.39", RW = 124.5 gr

cowboy1964
12-21-2011, 15:22
The 147gr is supposed to be best for short barrels. The Kahrs have 3.5" and 3" barrels respectively.

I think you'd find lots of disagreement on that. With a 3" barrel you COULD be getting down to almost 900 fps with a 147. Too slow. The 147+P should do better of course but a 124+P should still be pushing 1100+. If I'm going to have a 900 fps bullet I want something that is at LEAST 180-200gr so now I'm talking .45.

Another data point: Speer's 9mm Gold Dot Short Barrel ammo is 124+P, not 147.

NG VI
12-21-2011, 21:30
Someone correct me if I'm wrong but isn't the 147gr HST (I like it in +P) one of the better current 9mm loads available?

Pretty much best, by standards like reliability, expansion+penetration, performance after passing through intermediate barriers, and price. It does better after barriers than the Gold Dot, does better in every way other than penetration than the XTP, is cheaper than the Ranger-T, doesn't lose it's jacket like the Golden Saber, is sooo much cheaper than the DPX and expands more, and outdoes the generic hollowpoints in all classes except cost, which isn't unreasonable for the HST.

That's why I like them so much. And yes, the 147s are disparaged by people who are basing their decisions on 1980's bullet designs or buy into the ballistic pressure wave 'theory'.

NG VI
12-21-2011, 21:37
Average recovered diameter doesn't really describe expansion all that well, the newer bullets get very wide expansion measurements from point to point, the average may be .63" but in three separate places the bullet is .75-78" across.

Excellent for snipping every available blood vessels. Blood vessels are lines, major organs need to be hit, a long, narrow expanded profile for the petals works to get more of those structures better than a single rounded mushroom shape that older bullet designs achieve and that ARD measures.

Tiro Fijo
12-21-2011, 23:44
Average recovered diameter doesn't really describe expansion all that well, the newer bullets get very wide expansion measurements from point to point, the average may be .63" but in three separate places the bullet is .75-78" across...


Actually, no. They many times get folded back by things like ribs & the breast bone. Gel is not human, but it is the best we have for now.

backcast88
12-23-2011, 10:27
I put about 20 rounds down range through my new 26 gen4 with zero failures and poi was the same as poa so I went ahead and ordered another 50 rounds and I also ordered 50 rounds of Gold Dot 147 to see how they shoot in my 26, 228, and my dad's LC9.

cowboy1964
12-23-2011, 14:00
Someone correct me if I'm wrong but isn't the 147gr HST (I like it in +P) one of the better current 9mm loads available?

One of the better, yes. There is no one single "best" load.

cowboy1964
12-23-2011, 14:03
deleted

hotpig
12-23-2011, 14:40
One of the better, yes. There is no one single "best" load.The HST 147 looks like it may be a very good round based on actual shootings. The +P 147 is unproven still. Media testing shows that it should be good also.

JEEPX
12-23-2011, 22:01
I think you'd find lots of disagreement on that. With a 3" barrel you COULD be getting down to almost 900 fps with a 147. Too slow. The 147+P should do better of course but a 124+P should still be pushing 1100+. If I'm going to have a 900 fps bullet I want something that is at LEAST 180-200gr so now I'm talking .45.

Another data point: Speer's 9mm Gold Dot Short Barrel ammo is 124+P, not 147.

Point taken.
I am in the process of testing the reliability of Winchester Ranger 127gr +p+ in the pistols.

Sent from my DROID2 using Xparent Cyan Tapatalk

hotpig
12-23-2011, 22:37
I use the 147 RA9T in my Kahr. So long as the velocity is over 700fps it is within that rounds window for expansion. I have a lot of the +P and +P+ in stock but there is no real need for it. They perform better in longer barreled guns than in short.

DocKWL
12-24-2011, 04:26
HST 147 gr. is nothing spectacular. Look for yourself:

Fed HST 124 gr +P JHP (P9HST3) fired from G17 at ave vel of 1208 f/s; 5 shot ave below:
BG: Pen = 12.2", Ave RD = 0.64", Ave RL = 0.38", Ave RW = 123.8gr
4LD: Pen = 14.4", Ave RD = 0.53", Ave RL = 0.39", Ave RW = 124.1 gr
AG: Pen = 14.2", Ave RD = 0.46", Ave RL = 0.50", Ave RW = 123.0 gr

Rem Golden Saber 124 gr +P bonded JHP (GSB9MMD) fired from G17 at ave vel of 1188 f/s; 5 shot ave below::
BG: Pen = 12.6", Ave RD = 0.59", Ave RL = 0.37", Ave RW = 123.0 gr
4LD: Pen = 15.9", Ave RD = 0.55", Ave RL = 0.41", Ave RW = 124.1 gr
AG: Pen = 14.2", Ave RD = 0.46", Ave RL = 0.50", Ave RW = 123.8 gr

Fed HST 147 gr JHP (P9HST2) fired from G17 at ave vel of 1014 f/s; 5 shot ave below:
BG: Pen = 12.2", Ave RD = 0.63", Ave RL = 0.39", Ave RW = 147.5 gr
4LD: Pen = 15.4", Ave RD = 0.53", Ave RL = 0.50", Ave RW = 147.2 gr
AG: Pen = 13.0", Ave RD = 0.50", Ave RL = 0.59", Ave RW = 143.6 gr

9 mm Speer 124 gr JHP Gold Dot (53618) fired from G17 at ave vel of 1149 f/s; 5 shot ave below:
BG: Pen = 13.0", RD = 0.62", RL = 0.32", RW = 125.5 gr
4LD: Pen = 16.6", RD = 0.51", RL=0.43", RW = 125.2 gr

9 mm Speer 124 gr +P JHP Gold Dot (53617) fired from G17 at ave vel of 1232 f/s; 5 shot ave below:
BG: Pen = 12.0", RD = 0.67", RL = 0.30", RW = 124.2 gr
4LD: Pen = 13.0", RD = 0.54", RL= 0.39", RW = 124.5 gr

Why is this data not "spectacular"?

What would make it spectacular?

This data is from Dr. Roberts. Why not post his comments?

whiskey rebel1
12-24-2011, 05:16
Is this the standard load 147 HST? http://www.sportsmansguide.com/net/cb/500-rds-federal-9-mm-147-gr-jhp-ammo.aspx?a=789188

JEEPX
12-24-2011, 07:25
Sorry. Double post

JEEPX
12-24-2011, 07:37
I use the 147 RA9T in my Kahr. So long as the velocity is over 700fps it is within that rounds window for expansion. I have a lot of the +P and +P+ in stock but there is no real need for it. They perform better in longer barreled guns than in short.

Sorry for the questions, I am a noob to all this.

I have owned pistols for many years, but only recently began giving any thoughts on bullet weight, bullet construction, and barrel length.
I simply bought and used HP's I found at the best price.

I am trying to find the best bullet for a P2000, CW9 and CM9.

I currently have around 8-50 round boxes of both Winchester Ranger 127gr +p+, and HST 147gr +p.

So for the Kahrs with their short (3.5" and 3") barrels, the 147gr would actually be better?



Sent from my DROID2 using Xparent Cyan Tapatalk

The Retired Sarge
12-24-2011, 10:02
All depends on what you have confidence in. A lot of people base their bullet selection on what makes them feel good with velocity and foot pounds of energy. Years ago hollow point cavities were dependent on velocity alone to promote expansion. With today's technology JHP bullets are designed to reliably expand at lower velocity thresholds and much wider velocity windows. Concerning short barrels, in conversation with Paul Nowak, senior LE ballistics engineer at Winchester, he told me the following: Lighter, faster velocity +P loadings loose more velocity out of short barrels than the heavy loadings. Also out of a short barrel +P loadings may not burn all of the powder prior to leaving the barrel. His professional recommendation for short barrel 9mms is the 147gr bullet specifically for less velocity loss and its design to expand at lower velocities to begin with.

My choice in business ammunition is rounds that will work under any conditions, from any angle or body type. In 9mm, out of any barrel length, that is 147gr. Bill

NG VI
12-24-2011, 10:11
Yes, the heavier bullets lose less velocity when fired from a shorter barrel, and are designed to function properly at much lower velocities than the 124 grain bullets. No company is introducing new 115 grain loads, except the Hornady Critical Defense, which is designed to penetrate less than the rest of the top shelf defense loads and have minimal recoil. Also it doesn't expand much compared to the rest, so it's basically like an XTP without the penetration.

There's a letter floating around from a Winchester ammunition guy, I think it's Paul Nowak, who says the same thing, that the 147s are best for the shorter barreled guns, that they are the most likely to behave exactly the same from a 3" or a 5" gun out of all the bullet weights.

This only applies to the relatively current bullets, ones that were introduced twenty or twenty five years ago and never updated aren't in the same league as far as performance reliability goes. Older bullets clog and fail to expand much easier, they typically need more velocity to function properly, they don't expand as much, and when they do they are more prone to shallow penetration. Also, the lighter weight bullets were the only ones that could be reliably counted on to expand, and they were frequently on the edge as far as the bullet's construction went, so they would sometimes completely fragment. To me, that's undesirable.

hotpig
12-24-2011, 12:06
Sorry for the questions, I am a noob to all this.

I have owned pistols for many years, but only recently began giving any thoughts on bullet weight, bullet construction, and barrel length.
I simply bought and used HP's I found at the best price.

I am trying to find the best bullet for a P2000, CW9 and CM9.

I currently have around 8-50 round boxes of both Winchester Ranger 127gr +p+, and HST 147gr +p.

So for the Kahrs with their short (3.5" and 3") barrels, the 147gr would actually be better?The 147 would probably do slightly better than the 147+P or a lighter +P+ round.

Many people get wrapped up in the least important aspects of bullet designs. When the Ranger SXT was discontinued in 98 and replaced by the T-Series most missed what really happened. Many were caught up on the cosmetics. It did not have the black lubalox anymore. Many thought it was political, no it was not needed anymore. The case was nickel instead of brass. The mfg claim this can help with function. I do not know maybe it does. If not most people like shinny new things. Winchester even tumbles it to make it shine before they finish it. Some even see the media stuck around the primer sealant and freak out thinking the ammo is bad.

I love posters who say that it is Same eXact Thing as the Black Talon. This is Gunshop Commando slang for. I do not know anything about this ammo, but I want you to think that I do.

I digress, the T-Series contribution was its window of expansion. It you were issued a G17 with RA9T ammo it would also work with your back up G26. The same applied if your duty ammo was the RA9TA. The RA9TP did not come out until 2003 or 04.

Federal countered a few years later with a bullet that was meant originally for person protection sales. The HST performed so well it was moved from the regular commercial sales to the LE Restricted Tactical line.

Gold Dot feeling the sting finally caught up by adding the short Barrel line.

sciolist
12-30-2011, 21:54
I was very satisified with the 147 +P, in the testing I did with my 26. Not a ton of difference from the standard load. I've played around with both, and guess I have a slight preference for the +P. They both seem to work fine.

cowboy1964
12-31-2011, 00:23
Also out of a short barrel +P loadings may not burn all of the powder prior to leaving the barrel.

If that were so then +P shouldn't really have much (if any) more velocity than non+P out of short barrels and that is not the case.

Gold Dot Short Barrel in 9mm and .38 Special loads is the mid-weight +P stuff, not the heavy stuff.

All this is largely irrelevant in Glock length barrels anyway.

WiskyT
12-31-2011, 08:08
When you actully chronograph 115 and 124 ammo from a short barrel, vs 147's, it becomes clear that Nowak is correct. Federal 9BP (115) at 1050, or Ranger T (147) at 950? It's up to you but the Ranger 147 is doing exactly what is supposed to be doing (fps) out of my 3.1" LC9 whereas the lighter bullets are just light weight bullets going much slower than intended. It becomes a case of "light and moderate veloctiy vs. heavy and moderate velocity"