Do You Know of Trained Professionals That Carry C3 [Archive] - Glock Talk

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Jake Starr
12-11-2011, 08:36
And you?

Since I am one of the last remaining advocates(I think) on GT for the Israeli Method I thought I would keep the discussion open. How many of you know someone who you would consider "professional" that carries C3?

I know of at least two...one a close friend and the other a close acquaintance. One is newly retired Navy, 22 yrs and a SEAL. The other is an active duty Ranger Scout/Sniper, Small Arms instructor with a Bronze Star.

Both carry C3.

Comments, criticisms or complaints are welcomed.

unit1069
12-11-2011, 09:36
And you?

Since I am one of the last remaining advocates(I think) on GT for the Israeli Method I thought I would keep the discussion open. How many of you know someone who you would consider "professional" that carries C3?

I'm not an advocate for any particular carry condition as that's an individual decision, but like you I currently prefer to carry C3. I'm not LEO, military, or firearms professional; just a civilian.

Glenn E. Meyer
12-11-2011, 09:38
Being a civilian - I have attended the NTI and Polite Society several times. Quite a few professionals - never saw it there.

Jake Starr
12-11-2011, 10:29
Being a civilian - I have attended the NTI and Polite Society several times. Quite a few professionals - never saw it there.

Thanks.
All I am trying to say is that there are those who are well trained and US based that carry Israeli. May not be the majority but they are out there. I am one.

From my syllabus...

The purpose of the Israeli Combat Shooting training, or ICS is not to develop marksmanship; it is not to compete with other shooters; it is not to punch holes in paper targets; and certainly is not to hunt small game.
The purpose of the training is to enable one to quickly and effectively stop someone who is trying to make you a victim. In short, instinctive/Combat Point shooting trains people to win in a life threatening situations when you need to react in a fraction of a second in order to defend your life or protect other innocent people, often referred as a self-defense discipline.
This self-defense system was developed in Israel - a country that is constantly experiencing and facing the violence of terrorist nature. It became the most tested system when it comes to armed self-defense, and it’s been offered to people throughout the world.
The problem is that the innocent citizen must wait until a predator/Terrorist makes an overt act. One cannot shoot another on mere suspicion. This places the citizen in a situation where he or she must react to another’s actions, specifically the terrorist, who must be viewed as a humanoid motivated by a lust for blood. In a gunfight the aggressor has the advantage and the defender is usually a second or two behind. Thus the citizen/defender/victim is already coming second in the contest; and there are no second place winners!
In order to win, given this terrible disadvantage, the citizen must be able to overcome this lag time with a combination of speed and accuracy. The ICS shooter must think as if his first round on target will have little or no effect. Therefore the need to shoot multiple rounds on target with accuracy and the right ammo that will penetrate into vital organs. Speed and accuracy in an armed encounter is what is taught in Israeli Instinctive/Point shooting. It trains you to win in a gunfight, even when the aggressor has the advantage. There are no rules in a gunfight/knife fight, only facts, which if understood, can give you a winning edge:
Fact: 80% all gunfights occur at distances of 21’ or less with 50% of these taking place at less than 10’.
Fact: Most gunfights and assaults are over in less than 7 seconds.
Fact: 1/5 of all LEO involved in shooting are shot with their own weapon.
Fact: A high percentage of gunfights/assaults occur in dim or no light making ordinary sights hardly visible.
Fact: In a spontaneous life-threatening situation the body undergoes instinctive reactions such as crouching, squaring body with the threat, visually focusing on the threat and convulsive muscle contraction.
Conclusion: To win in a gunfight, or surviving a life threatening situation assault, requires great speed and accuracy in drawing and firing the gun at close range without the use of sights. This is sometimes called instinctive shooting or point shooting.

NMGlocker
12-11-2011, 10:51
Take one of ShivWorks/Southnarc ECQC classes and see how well your carry method works in full contact close quarters force on force.
http://youtu.be/noAFOXygNC4

I've been around dozens of nationally recognized, full time professional instructors, none of them carry or advocate condition 3.
The only people I see advocating it are internet unknowns.

Jake Starr
12-11-2011, 11:08
The only people I see advocating it are internet unknowns.


Perhaps you need to get out a bit more than you do. :upeyes:

Besides at the distances in the vid...condition of carry is irrelevant. If your attackers are that close you situational awareness is lacking plus everyone needs open hand skills. If you can touch it you can take it. I would not be going for my gun in this case, since it is too late. Better to be attacking my attacker with my hands.

NMGlocker
12-11-2011, 11:22
Perhaps you need to get out a bit more than you do. :upeyes:
I'll put my training resume and experience up against yours any day of the week.
and
I'll amend my post to "internet unknowns and incompetent quacks" if it'll make you feel better about yourself.

cowboy1964
12-11-2011, 11:58
Carry whatever/however you like but the fact remains that the vast, VAST majority of professional's don't carry that way. It is what it is.

MikeLadner
12-11-2011, 12:03
I don't know anyone that carries that way.

Lampshade
12-11-2011, 13:27
May not be the majority but they are out there.

I concur, they definitely are not the majority, they are, in fact, an extreme minority.

SpringerTGO
12-11-2011, 13:31
Another "back door approach" to bringing up the same topic. "I know an expert who carries this way, so it must be right". Kind of like "my big brother can beat your big brother up".

Since I don't read about civilians shooting themselves very often by carrying condition one, and I don't hear of civilians getting killed because they can't chamber a round fast enough, I don't see why you keep trying to force a non issue.

How about if people carry how in a manner in which they feel most comfortable, and you stop trying to prove them wrong?

captdreifus
12-11-2011, 13:39
Never met one instructor myself.

BamaTrooper
12-11-2011, 13:40
The only advantage I see is in preplanning for having your gun taken from, and used, against you as you reference in your syllabus.

Other than that, rapid accurate shooting, planning on need for more than one shot, etc... can be accomplished without having to draw and chamber a round. :dunno:

svtpwnz
12-11-2011, 13:44
I only know of one friend who carries c3 and he just started carrying a couple months ago. He also has zero training and is not military or leo. Myself, I ALWAYS carry with one in the pipe because in a true SHF situation, I may have to use one hand to hold back an attacker as I draw my weapon.

DWARREN123
12-11-2011, 13:55
Go with what makes you happy. I, myself, do not think it is a good method.
Never knew anyone who would carry this way unless they had to.

Jake Starr
12-11-2011, 14:36
I'll put my training resume and experience up against yours any day of the week.
and
I'll amend my post to "internet unknowns and incompetent quacks" if it'll make you feel better about yourself.


Fair enough. Not questioning your creds, or trying to get into a ping contest...just saying that there are more who carry C3 than most would realize. Especially if you consider international market.

However I would not consider members of the IDF Duvdevan Unit as "internet unknowns or incompetent quacks."

Just saying.

Carrys
12-11-2011, 14:46
I have gotten out a bit, in fact I've been all around the world a bit.

Retired from the military, was a k-9 handling MP, an MP investigator, and a civilian liaison to the MPs for training. After retirement I was a civilian police officer until I retired again from them. Taken many different types of weapons training courses, some from the military and some....to include from the FBI, from civilian agencies.

I have never met, known of, or heard of one single person who has ever chosen to carry in that manner, whether it was while I was in the military or in civilian work. Although, I have heard many a person state why they would never ever choose to carry in C3.

Not commenting on how anyone desires to carry their weapon, that is up to them IMO. Just stating my experiences on the subject. Just as an FYI, I carry with one in the tube every single time. Wouldn't think of doing it any other way. But that's just my decision.......my choice mind you.

captdreifus
12-11-2011, 14:52
Fair enough. Not questioning your creds, or trying to get into a ping contest...just saying that there are more who carry C3 than most would realize. Especially if you consider international market.

However I would not consider members of the IDF Duvdevan Unit as "internet unknowns or incompetent quacks."

Just saying.

What is the point of this discussion? Yes, there is a small small population that carries c3. So what? Carry how you see fit.

Batesmotel
12-11-2011, 14:53
I know a civilian who is armed security at a industrial complex. (military contractor)

He is required to cary condition 3. A ND could be bad, very bad.

owl6roll
12-11-2011, 14:59
Never trained that way. I fight the same way I train. If you can't fight from where you're sitting right now, what good are you? Yes, I know you may be at home, but my point is this, be ready when the wolf gomes knocking. It's just my way and everyone has their own way of doing things.

Jake Starr
12-11-2011, 15:04
What is the point of this discussion? Yes, there is a small small population that carries c3. So what? Carry how you see fit.


My point is it is not as small as some people think. US LEO. No. They do not carry C3. But many civilians do and it is mandated on many US Military bases. I can tell you for a fact that you cannot carry a sidearm on FT Knox unless it is in C3.

I agree with carry how one sees fit. When on duty or in the field I carry as mandated, C1. When at home or local it is C3. My choice.

Point is there are plent out there who have seen more than a bit of service time who carry C3. Not as small a portion of the population as some would like to think.

And FWIW I too have had military, LEO, NRA civilian and LE programs and civilian training. And graduated from the FBI Police Firearms Instructor Academy.

SpringerTGO
12-11-2011, 15:05
I know someone who knows someone who's brother knows someone who is married to Supermans sister. She says Superman carries condition 3. And if Superman carries condition 3, that must be the only way to carry. Except (according to Superman) if you are guarding shipments of Kryptonite. I was told that the people guarding Kryptonite are allowed to carry condition 1. But it takes years of training with astronauts, (who have prior experience landing on Mars while carrying 1911's and balancing balls on their helmets) before you can get a job guarding Kryptonite.

samuse
12-11-2011, 15:06
The purpose of the Israeli Combat Shooting training, or ICS is not to develop marksmanship;:upeyes:

The purpose of the training is to enable one to quickly and effectively stop someone who is trying to make you a victim.

...when you need to react in a fraction of a second in order to defend your life


...In a gunfight the aggressor has the advantage and the defender is usually a second or two behind. Thus the citizen/defender/victim is already coming second in the contest;

... given this terrible disadvantage, the citizen must be able to overcome this lag time with a combination of speed and accuracy.


Fact: 80% all gunfights occur at distances of 21’ or less with 50% of these taking place at less than 10’.
Fact: Most gunfights and assaults are over in less than 7 seconds.
Fact: 1/5 of all LEO involved in shooting are shot with their own weapon.

__________________




I fail to see how carrying an unloaded gun is gonna help.

Bren
12-11-2011, 15:07
I know plenty of trained professionals who carry with an empty chamber. I don't know ANY that do it by choice - it's just a requirement for every branch of the military at most times.

I have never met a police officer who carries that way, since they aren't required to. I also don't think I have personally met a civilian with any real training or experience who carries like that.

I did attend NRA Law Enforcement Handgun/Shotgun Instructor school with an armed security company instructor who was required to carry that way (Beretta 92). He was unable to qualify on the required qual course, due to the loss of speed and disqualifying wild shots as he tried to rack the slide then get back to a shooting grip. He tried several times, then the rest of us went to lunch, while he continued to shoot theocurse and he finally "made it" once there were no other students watching.:upeyes:

PolymerPackin
12-11-2011, 15:11
carrying C3 would defeat what training I've had. I'm not Military or LEO, but I've had professional training and they assertively stand against that type of thinking. I did carry C3 when I first got my permit and wasn't "confident enough", but looking back I believe that was a dangerous mistake.

Bren
12-11-2011, 15:15
The purpose of the Israeli Combat Shooting training, or ICS is not to develop marksmanship;:upeyes:

The purpose of the training is to enable one to quickly and effectively stop someone who is trying to make you a victim.

...when you need to react in a fraction of a second in order to defend your life


...In a gunfight the aggressor has the advantage and the defender is usually a second or two behind. Thus the citizen/defender/victim is already coming second in the contest;

... given this terrible disadvantage, the citizen must be able to overcome this lag time with a combination of speed and accuracy.


Fact: 80% all gunfights occur at distances of 21’ or less with 50% of these taking place at less than 10’.
Fact: Most gunfights and assaults are over in less than 7 seconds.
Fact: 1/5 of all LEO involved in shooting are shot with their own weapon.

__________________




I fail to see how carrying an unloaded gun is gonna help.

Yep. Seems like the Israeli method guys are arguing against their method.

Deaf Smith
12-11-2011, 15:16
The only people I know that carry chamber empty (and chamber empty under the hammer of a revolver) are people do not practice much and are simply afraid they might have an accident.

They don't practice weekly (or even monthly) and are not real sure about how 'safe' their pistol is, and simply feel the chances of them needing the weapon that quickly are remote. They feel they will have time to access there weapon and do want is needed to make it ready before any real incident will happen.

As I have posted many times there are a few situations where C3 does have it's place. Not a huge number of them but there are a few.

Deaf

captdreifus
12-11-2011, 15:25
The only people I know that carry chamber empty (and chamber empty under the hammer of a revolver) are people do not practice much and are simply afraid they might have an accident.

They don't practice weekly (or even monthly) and are not real sure about how 'safe' their pistol is, and simply feel the chances of them needing the weapon that quickly are remote. They feel they will have time to access there weapon and do want is needed to make it ready before any real incident will happen.

As I have posted many times there are a few situations where C3 does have it's place. Not a huge number of them but there are a few.

Deaf

Agreed:cool:

RussP
12-11-2011, 15:35
Comments, criticisms or complaints are welcomed.You obviously did not mean that. :impatient: