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3000fps
12-12-2011, 13:39
What is the appropriate response after a self-defense shooting?

Has anyone here responded to the scene after a SD shoot?

I'm hearing what to do afterwards in terms of talking to police, lawyer etc. from different people, and all going in all different directions.

IMO I would call 911, stay on the phone the whole time, and cooperate with the officers on scene. Would you still be arrested?

Sgt127
12-12-2011, 13:49
Call 911. Describe yourself as well as possible, clothing etc. Secure the weapon if you are able, back in a holster, in the car, whatever, just don't be holding it when the cops show up. You have no idea how many calls were made and, how contradictory the info the responding Officers are getting.

When the Officers arrive, properly identify yourself with picture ID, explain, very briefly, what happened. "My weapon is in my holster (don't reach for it) That man attacked me with a knife, I was in fear of my life, I had to defend myself. I'm really shaken up, may I have a few minutes to gather my thoughts, call my family and an attorney."

Identify any witness's that were present when it occured.

Don't babble.

You may be asked to go to the station for a statement. You may be arrested.

Sam Spade
12-12-2011, 14:00
There are three significant categories of people we deal with: victims, witnesses and suspects. If you're in a shooting, it's pretty clear that you're not a witness. So: victim or suspect? Where do you want to be filed, how do you want to set the tone for everything that follows?

If you're a victim, act like one. Victims do NOT invoke their right against sefl-incrimination. What they do is everything they can to make sure the bad guy gets caught.

At the same time, I understand people's fear of arrest and lawsuits. What I recommend is a basic statement. Identify yourself as the victim, including a rough description of the crime. Point out evidence and witnesses before they disappear. Describe the bad guys that got away. Then, politely stop talking. Something along the lines of, "Officer, I know that people get sued by criminals all the time and I don't want that to happen. I'll tell you things in detail as soon as I can talk to my lawyer." That's a whole lot more understandable, especially to a street cop, than someone who invokes or totally refuses.

Will you still be arrested? It really depends, mostly on circumstances but also on location. I know you're picturing shooting Mumar the Terrorist as he's about to kill a bus load of nuns and orphans, or maybe The Ripper as he's about to cut you. But reality is that you might end up shooting your crazy ex-'s new boy toy right after she came over to pick up her things. Or your cheating business partner who's boinking your wife on the side. NO ONE has a private life so unsullied that he can't end up is some real grey situations. But if you're a taxpayer defending yourself from an honest-to-goodness street crime (which is not the samething as a payment dispute over teener of meth), the odds are heavily on your side.

Mayhem like Me
12-12-2011, 14:13
I cannot add anything to Sam's post , I can tell you that I have investigated a few self defense shootings of civilians and officers and Each time I was given a basic statement such as Sam describes, I had an off duty cop from another agency that shot a burglar in his kitchen armed with a large pry bar "all he was missing was the burglar mask".
He was the only one that really kept talking, he seemed to be less phased by it than the others. I finally had his supervisor come get him and told his supervisor to have him contact his PBA legal fund attorney and talk to him at some point.

Not a bad shoot at all but the guy just would not stop talking , and that can be a bad thing if you get sued.

OXCOPS
12-12-2011, 14:18
Nothing wrong with telling the responding officers that you are really shaken up at the moment, but fully intend on cooperating. Seek medical help, if you need it (blood pressure, heart trouble, whatever the case may be).

3000fps
12-12-2011, 14:38
Thank you all very much for the replies, it makes a world of difference to hear it from professional individuals.

The-Fly
12-12-2011, 17:31
If you're a victim, act like one. Victims do NOT invoke their right against sefl-incrimination.

No offense, but in this day and age of hyper aggressive DA's looking to prosecute "gun" crimes at the drop of a hat, taking the 5th is a WISE thing to do for civilians that do not have a police union or rules such as Garrity to protect them.

I'm not saying a victim shouldn't give some VERY basic info out (who the bad guy is, where his weapon is, etc), but in general the less the victim says, the better until such time they talk to their lawyer.

I know this can make things a little harder on the investigating officers, but we have to protect ourselves in a legal sense as well.


http://www.btfh.net/shoot/misc/Talking_to_the_police_by_Professor_James_duane.mp4

RussP
12-12-2011, 18:23
No offense, but in this day and age of hyper aggressive DA's looking to prosecute "gun" crimes at the drop of a hat, taking the 5th is a WISE thing to do for civilians that do not have a police union or rules such as Garrity to protect them.

I'm not saying a victim shouldn't give some VERY basic info out (who the bad guy is, where his weapon is, etc), but in general the less the victim says, the better until such time they talk to their lawyer.

I know this can make things a little harder on the investigating officers, but we have to protect ourselves in a legal sense as well.


http://www.btfh.net/shoot/misc/Talking_to_the_police_by_Professor_James_duane.mp4The part in bold, can you expound on the "etc"? What does that include?

Thanks...

trekdesigns
12-12-2011, 18:39
...When the Officers arrive, properly identify yourself with picture ID, explain, very briefly, what happened. "My weapon is in my holster (don't reach for it) That man attacked me with a knife, I was in fear of my life, I had to defend myself. I'm really shaken up, may I have a few minutes to gather my thoughts, call my family and an attorney."


I agree 100%. "I'd be more than happy to speak with you in the morning with my lawyer present." I feel no need to make a statement at that time. There will be more than enough evidence on scene (witnesses, CCTV, broken glass, bullet holes and possibly a dead man) that they do not need an immediate statement from you.

No matter what you say, everything is going to be taped off, and there will be an investigation. If your going to be arrested like Sgt127 says i'm willing to bet that nothing you say to the responding officers is going to change that.

DaBigBR
12-12-2011, 19:17
This has been covered pretty well in this thread. I've read others that did not go that way.

The-Fly
12-12-2011, 21:31
The part in bold, can you expound on the "etc"? What does that include?

Thanks...

Stuff like your name, your address, where your firearm is, where the bad guy's weapon (if any) is, if your hurt, if anyone else is hurt. Very basic factual info.

I strongly discourage people from discussing what happened until such time they talk with a lawyer.

DMF
12-12-2011, 21:42
I'll add, if responding officers arrive and you have a gun in your hand, you will be ordered to "drop the gun." Do exactly that. That means open your hand and let the gun free fall to the ground. The responding officers only know they've been called to the scene of a shooting, and have no way of knowing you're a "good guy." Do anything other than dropping the gun when ordered could reasonably interpreted by the officers as moving to shoot, and they would justified in responding with lethal force. It doesn't matter if the gun is a $3500 custom pistol, or a Makarov you paid $150 for, if you're ordered to drop the gun, do just that.

The-Fly
12-12-2011, 21:56
I'll add, if responding officers arrive and you have a gun in your hand, you will be ordered to "drop the gun." Do exactly that. That means open your hand and let the gun free fall to the ground. The responding officers only know they've been called to the scene of a shooting, and have no way of knowing you're a "good guy." Do anything other than dropping the gun when ordered could reasonably interpreted by the officers as moving to shoot, and they would justified in responding with lethal force. It doesn't matter if the gun is a $3500 custom pistol, or a Makarov you paid $150 for, if you're ordered to drop the gun, do just that.

Couldn't agree more. I teach students that PRIOR to the police arriving, to either holster their firearm or unload it, slide lock it, and place it a few feet in front on them, and then to keep their hands above their head in plain view.

Sam Spade
12-13-2011, 07:42
No offense, but in this day and age of hyper aggressive DA's looking to prosecute "gun" crimes at the drop of a hat, taking the 5th is a WISE thing to do for civilians that do not have a police union or rules such as Garrity to protect them.

I'm not saying a victim shouldn't give some VERY basic info out (who the bad guy is, where his weapon is, etc), but in general the less the victim says, the better until such time they talk to their lawyer.

I know this can make things a little harder on the investigating officers, but we have to protect ourselves in a legal sense as well.


http://www.btfh.net/shoot/misc/Talking_to_the_police_by_Professor_James_duane.mp4

And your advice differs from the totality of my post, how?

merlynusn
12-13-2011, 09:53
The investigation will go on whether you make a statement or not. While I agree (and would use it if it were me) about talking to a lawyer before detailed questioning, the detectives will make a determination based on the information they have.

If you are involved in a shooting with a thug and the only witnesses are the thug's friends, a more detailed statement might be better. They will go off the information they have, especially if it's a homicide investigation. If everyone is saying "We were just walking along and that guy came up and shot us." Then if you are the shooter and you invoke, then they will go with what they have. You will be arrested and charged. They might be dropped later on, but you'll still be charged. They typically won't let a homicide suspect walk away baring other information.

If you can get a lawyer to come to the station immediately, then by all means, do so. That will show you are willing to talk, but you're also protected. I know that if I'm involved in a shooting, I will call my FOP lawyer and have him there before I talk to anyone. But not many people have a lawyer on standby either.

Will the detectives try to figure out if it's really self defense? Yes. But it also requires some information from the person who is claiming self defense. Also, self defense is a defense, not necessarily a bar to prosecution.

Hollywood D
12-13-2011, 11:06
I can give you an example based on something like that which happened at work a few years ago.

Cliffs notes version:

Two guys are working at a liquor store. They both have guns behind the counter. Two suspects walk in with guns to rob the place. The clerks pull out their guns and shoot the suspects. I can't remember if both suspects died, but one did for sure.

Homicide responds. They brought them to the station for an interview. No handcuffs or anything as it's being treated as a righteous self defense shooting at this point.

If a guy gives a basic synopsis of what happens then says 'Look I've never been in this situation before and I don't know how this all works and I would like to have an attorney present before I make any other statements', I don't have a problem with that.

I do recommend you at least give a brief rundown of what happened, but that's up to you. And you will be way amped up anyways so your mouth will probably be going a mile a minute regardless.

Javelin
12-13-2011, 11:09
There are three significant categories of people we deal with: victims, witnesses and suspects. If you're in a shooting, it's pretty clear that you're not a witness. So: victim or suspect? Where do you want to be filed, how do you want to set the tone for everything that follows?

If you're a victim, act like one. Victims do NOT invoke their right against sefl-incrimination. What they do is everything they can to make sure the bad guy gets caught.

At the same time, I understand people's fear of arrest and lawsuits. What I recommend is a basic statement. Identify yourself as the victim, including a rough description of the crime. Point out evidence and witnesses before they disappear. Describe the bad guys that got away. Then, politely stop talking. Something along the lines of, "Officer, I know that people get sued by criminals all the time and I don't want that to happen. I'll tell you things in detail as soon as I can talk to my lawyer." That's a whole lot more understandable, especially to a street cop, than someone who invokes or totally refuses.

Will you still be arrested? It really depends, mostly on circumstances but also on location. I know you're picturing shooting Mumar the Terrorist as he's about to kill a bus load of nuns and orphans, or maybe The Ripper as he's about to cut you. But reality is that you might end up shooting your crazy ex-'s new boy toy right after she came over to pick up her things. Or your cheating business partner who's boinking your wife on the side. NO ONE has a private life so unsullied that he can't end up is some real grey situations. But if you're a taxpayer defending yourself from an honest-to-goodness street crime (which is not the samething as a payment dispute over teener of meth), the odds are heavily on your side.

I don't agree with this at all. If you are talking to the Law you need a Lawyer. I would not care about the criminal case so much as the civil that will inevitably follow even in the best of case self defense.

So - Lawyer or else pay the price later with all of your hard earned cash pulling back word play that their legal team will do everything and anything they can to extort money from your wallet in court.

Javelin
12-13-2011, 11:13
And the little who-dunnit cop that shows up at the incident is only there to collect evidence. The evidence you provide will be used against you in a court of law (both civil and criminal). After a shoot you are in no way able to give a complete statement and you really need just just go downtown with the nice peace officers, call your lawyer, and sit and don't say a damn thing until he arrives.

Seriously folks this is not a game. It is your life and in the civil court proceedings the assalaint's family will have your cake and eat it too.

You need to protect yourself, your family, and your belongings from the abuse of the civil court system.

Sgt127
12-13-2011, 12:38
This has been covered pretty well in this thread. I've read others that did not go that way.

And, we come to the inevitable turn that always happens with these threads....

m2hmghb
12-13-2011, 13:04
And, we come to the inevitable turn that always happens with these threads....

Yup, a know it all with no experience shows up and shoots off his mouth.

Sam Spade
12-13-2011, 14:22
Yup, a know it all with no experience shows up and shoots off his mouth.

From another forum...:whistling:

Unskilled and Unaware of It: How Difficulties in Recognizing One's Own Incompetence Lead to Inflated Self-Assessments
Justin Kruger and David Dunning
Department of Psychology
Cornell University

Journal of Personality and Social Psychology
December 1999 Vol. 77, No. 6, 1121-1134

Abstract
People tend to hold overly favorable views of their abilities in many social and intellectual domains. The authors suggest that this overestimation occurs, in part, because people who are unskilled in these domains suffer a dual burden: Not only do these people reach erroneous conclusions and make unfortunate choices, but their incompetence robs them of the metacognitive ability to realize it. Across 4 studies, the authors found that participants scoring in the bottom quartile on tests of humor, grammar, and logic grossly overestimated their test performance and ability. Although their test scores put them in the 12th percentile, they estimated themselves to be in the 62nd.

I don't agree with this at all. If you are talking to the Law you need a Lawyer. I would not care about the criminal case so much as the civil that will inevitably follow even in the best of case self defense.

So - Lawyer or else pay the price later with all of your hard earned cash pulling back word play that their legal team will do everything and anything they can to extort money from your wallet in court.


Dude, you think that guys like us are about to get retirement jobs as Army Internment Specialists and run the welcome wagon for FEMA internment camps. You've never been in a self-defense shooting, you've absolutely never investigated one. You laugh at the internet and press when it talks about .9mm Glock revolvers but then embrace them when they tell you stories that you like. In short, you don't know what you don't know and you're not really in a position to give advice on a cop forum about cop investigations.

OXCOPS
12-13-2011, 14:49
http://www.hotelchatter.com/files/3/holiday_inn_express_wifi_07.jpg

Dragoon44
12-13-2011, 16:27
Yup, a know it all with no experience shows up and shoots off his mouth.

They don't think they need experience, they think their political views are all they need to make a determination on things they know absolutely nothing about.

Dragoon44
12-13-2011, 16:28
From another forum...:whistling:

Unskilled and Unaware of It: How Difficulties in Recognizing One's Own Incompetence Lead to Inflated Self-Assessments
Justin Kruger and David Dunning
Department of Psychology
Cornell University

Journal of Personality and Social Psychology
December 1999 Vol. 77, No. 6, 1121-1134

Abstract
People tend to hold overly favorable views of their abilities in many social and intellectual domains. The authors suggest that this overestimation occurs, in part, because people who are unskilled in these domains suffer a dual burden: Not only do these people reach erroneous conclusions and make unfortunate choices, but their incompetence robs them of the metacognitive ability to realize it. Across 4 studies, the authors found that participants scoring in the bottom quartile on tests of humor, grammar, and logic grossly overestimated their test performance and ability. Although their test scores put them in the 12th percentile, they estimated themselves to be in the 62nd.




Dude, you think that guys like us are about to get retirement jobs as Army Internment Specialists and run the welcome wagon for FEMA internment camps. You've never been in a self-defense shooting, you've absolutely never investigated one. You laugh at the internet and press when it talks about .9mm Glock revolvers but then embrace them when they tell you stories that you like. In short, you don't know what you don't know and you're not really in a position to give advice on a cop forum about cop investigations.

This should be a sticky.

:goodpost:

RussP
12-13-2011, 16:54
From another forum...:whistling:

Unskilled and Unaware of It: How Difficulties in Recognizing One's Own Incompetence Lead to Inflated Self-Assessments
Justin Kruger and David Dunning
Department of Psychology
Cornell University

Journal of Personality and Social Psychology
December 1999 Vol. 77, No. 6, 1121-1134

Abstract
People tend to hold overly favorable views of their abilities in many social and intellectual domains. The authors suggest that this overestimation occurs, in part, because people who are unskilled in these domains suffer a dual burden: Not only do these people reach erroneous conclusions and make unfortunate choices, but their incompetence robs them of the metacognitive ability to realize it. Across 4 studies, the authors found that participants scoring in the bottom quartile on tests of humor, grammar, and logic grossly overestimated their test performance and ability. Although their test scores put them in the 12th percentile, they estimated themselves to be in the 62nd.




Dude, you think that guys like us are about to get retirement jobs as Army Internment Specialists and run the welcome wagon for FEMA internment camps. You've never been in a self-defense shooting, you've absolutely never investigated one. You laugh at the internet and press when it talks about .9mm Glock revolvers but then embrace them when they tell you stories that you like. In short, you don't know what you don't know and you're not really in a position to give advice on a cop forum about cop investigations.

This should be a sticky.

:goodpost:I blogged it... http://glocktalk.com/forums/blog.php?b=399

RussP
12-13-2011, 21:28
Here's the thing defense attorneys want you to do - shut up and call them.

I wonder how many people sit down before an event and spend an hour discussing the 'what-ifs' with their attorney.

I wonder how many people ask their attorney how bad it went for their clients when that client talked to the police after a self defense shooting.

Come to think about it, I wonder how many people's attorney has actually defended a self defense criminal case.

How about asking how many civil lawsuits expected by many to immediately follow a no-bill grand jury, an acquittal has the attorney handled.

Do all y'all with an attorney on speed dial know the answers to those questions?

Okay, so you and your attorney decide it is best for you to not say anything to anybody, other than you will speak only after consulting with your attorney.

What if there are friends of the person you shot there. Some may have been there originally, some came late to the party. All of them are more than willing to tell police EXACTLY what happened. There's a problem. Their version is totally different than what really happened. Have you and your attorney discussed how you are going to handle people lying in your face about what happened. You've told the cops you are not going to talk. The woman in the house across the street knows the good man you just shot. She saw you just draw and shoot him for no reason. She didn't hear any warning you gave. She telling the cops, and others around her are saying, "Yeah, that's what happened."

Your adrenalin is going to be pumping because you shot someone. Now it is going up to a new level because people are lying about you, about what happened. Are you going to be able to keep your mouth shut? Will keeping your mouth shut help you?

What about all the camera phones these people are pointing at you? You know you are going to be on YouTube before you get a chance to do anything about it. The media will for sure be getting copies. More adrenalin gets pumped into your system. Have you ever had that much adrenalin on board and tried to think rationally?

Yeah, maybe it is a good idea for you to not talk to the police. You'd run your mouth, get mad at the people around you, by now you might even have peed your pants.

Another question: Do you practice drawing and firing your weapon? Of course you do, silly me.

Well, how about you spend time with your attorney and develop a couple of scenarios and what you would be wise to say to a cop interviewing you. Then practice saying what is agreed on as often as you go to the range and shoot. If you can't imagine that much adrenalin and how you'd act, then get a friend to roll play with you. Tell him/her to try and make you mad, crazy mad. Then you start saying what happened. Then shut up.

Remember, you will not be on the internet. You'll not be able to edit your "post". There is no delete key.

Oh, and about calling that attorney. Practice punching in his/her number with your hands shaking so hard you can barely hold the little cell phone.

The other thing you might want to do is get to know some of the cops in your area. If there is a ride-along program, take advantage of it. Learn what it is like on the street from a cops perspective. Listen to how they do their jobs. That knowledge can help you be more calm when the SHTF.

Figure out what will work best for you and practice.

federali
12-14-2011, 17:09
If an innocent man can be convicted of something he did not do, such as all the alleged rapists being cleared by DNA evidence not available at the time of the crime, than an innocent man can indeed incriminate himself. It's best to give name, rank, serial number, identify yourself as the victim, promise full cooperation but with the assistance of an attorney.

Whatever you do, never try to transform a justifyiable shooting into an accidental one in the mistaken belief that the cops/courts will go easier on you. Once you let it be known that in your mind, the shooting wasn't necessary, which means it was avoidable, then you deny yourself the defense of justification.

SpringerTGO
12-14-2011, 17:30
I have spoken at length with a judge about innocent people going to prison. It is actually common. If a woman decides to accuse someone of rape, it can easily come down to whoever the jury decides presents their argument (not evidence) better. One of the biggest messes a criminal attorney has to deal with, is what his client said to the police, before retaining a lawyer.
The odds are, you are more likely to run into problems by talking to the police, than by hiring an attorney and taking his advice.

CJStudent
12-14-2011, 18:12
Don't talk to the PO-leece.........:whistling:

Outdoor Hub mobile, the outdoor information engine

Javelin
12-14-2011, 19:48
From another forum...:whistling:

Unskilled and Unaware of It: How Difficulties in Recognizing One's Own Incompetence Lead to Inflated Self-Assessments
Justin Kruger and David Dunning
Department of Psychology
Cornell University

Journal of Personality and Social Psychology
December 1999 Vol. 77, No. 6, 1121-1134

Abstract
People tend to hold overly favorable views of their abilities in many social and intellectual domains. The authors suggest that this overestimation occurs, in part, because people who are unskilled in these domains suffer a dual burden: Not only do these people reach erroneous conclusions and make unfortunate choices, but their incompetence robs them of the metacognitive ability to realize it. Across 4 studies, the authors found that participants scoring in the bottom quartile on tests of humor, grammar, and logic grossly overestimated their test performance and ability. Although their test scores put them in the 12th percentile, they estimated themselves to be in the 62nd.




Dude, you think that guys like us are about to get retirement jobs as Army Internment Specialists and run the welcome wagon for FEMA internment camps. You've never been in a self-defense shooting, you've absolutely never investigated one. You laugh at the internet and press when it talks about .9mm Glock revolvers but then embrace them when they tell you stories that you like. In short, you don't know what you don't know and you're not really in a position to give advice on a cop forum about cop investigations.

You are so right Sam.... You saw what I don't agree with in bold lettering. I don't really care what the cop at the scene of the incident says or does. I have my rights not to invoke or not invoke my amendments and that right is there for a reason. My advice is the same. You (if you are a cop) are not there to help the person but to collect evidence.

Javelin
12-14-2011, 19:51
And one more thing Sam - Acting like a prick does not look good on you.

Javelin
12-14-2011, 20:00
Here's the thing defense attorneys want you to do - shut up and call them.

I wonder how many people sit down before an event and spend an hour discussing the 'what-ifs' with their attorney.

I wonder how many people ask their attorney how bad it went for their clients when that client talked to the police after a self defense shooting.

Come to think about it, I wonder how many people's attorney has actually defended a self defense criminal case.

How about asking how many civil lawsuits expected by many to immediately follow a no-bill grand jury, an acquittal has the attorney handled.

Do all y'all with an attorney on speed dial know the answers to those questions?

Okay, so you and your attorney decide it is best for you to not say anything to anybody, other than you will speak only after consulting with your attorney.

What if there are friends of the person you shot there. Some may have been there originally, some came late to the party. All of them are more than willing to tell police EXACTLY what happened. There's a problem. Their version is totally different than what really happened. Have you and your attorney discussed how you are going to handle people lying in your face about what happened. You've told the cops you are not going to talk. The woman in the house across the street knows the good man you just shot. She saw you just draw and shoot him for no reason. She didn't hear any warning you gave. She telling the cops, and others around her are saying, "Yeah, that's what happened."

Your adrenalin is going to be pumping because you shot someone. Now it is going up to a new level because people are lying about you, about what happened. Are you going to be able to keep your mouth shut? Will keeping your mouth shut help you?

What about all the camera phones these people are pointing at you? You know you are going to be on YouTube before you get a chance to do anything about it. The media will for sure be getting copies. More adrenalin gets pumped into your system. Have you ever had that much adrenalin on board and tried to think rationally?

Yeah, maybe it is a good idea for you to not talk to the police. You'd run your mouth, get mad at the people around you, by now you might even have peed your pants.

Another question: Do you practice drawing and firing your weapon? Of course you do, silly me.

Well, how about you spend time with your attorney and develop a couple of scenarios and what you would be wise to say to a cop interviewing you. Then practice saying what is agreed on as often as you go to the range and shoot. If you can't imagine that much adrenalin and how you'd act, then get a friend to roll play with you. Tell him/her to try and make you mad, crazy mad. Then you start saying what happened. Then shut up.

Remember, you will not be on the internet. You'll not be able to edit your "post". There is no delete key.

Oh, and about calling that attorney. Practice punching in his/her number with your hands shaking so hard you can barely hold the little cell phone.

The other thing you might want to do is get to know some of the cops in your area. If there is a ride-along program, take advantage of it. Learn what it is like on the street from a cops perspective. Listen to how they do their jobs. That knowledge can help you be more calm when the SHTF.

Figure out what will work best for you and practice.

see that part in red? I agree 100% with you Jerry.

That cannot be stressed enough. You will not be able to control what the other people say or do - what the plaintiff will have to prove is that what happened actually happened and that is where you better have a good lawyer. The more you say the more money it is going to cost you to pull back words - words that will be twisted / misunderstood by those listening or misscommunicated by you.

I have been involved in live fire shoots where **** went south and in a hurry. There was no way right afterwards that I could have totally described the incident or given severely accurate details of the entire incident... why would a personal defense shooting be the same? I guess if you are a super hero like Sam you can.

------------------

-----> and Sam, you will never be retiring as an officer in a FEMA internment camp... read it yourself (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/11/29/senate-votes-to-let-military-detain-americans-indefinitely_n_1119473.html)- the Military is getting the funding for the arrests and loss of due process against the civilian sector. You will continue to write failure to yield tickets though if that makes you feel better. I swear people have their heads so far up their butts they can smell their breath sometimes.

:supergrin:

OXCOPS
12-14-2011, 20:16
You are so right Sam.... You saw what I don't agree with in bold lettering. I don't really care what the cop at the scene of the incident says or does. I have my rights not to invoke or not invoke my amendments and that right is there for a reason. My advice is the same. You (if you are a cop) are not there to help the person but to collect evidence.


Why can't they do both?

OXCOPS
12-14-2011, 20:19
[QUOTE=Javelin;18287681

------------------

-----> and Sam, you will never be retiring as an officer in a FEMA internment camp... read it yourself (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/11/29/senate-votes-to-let-military-detain-americans-indefinitely_n_1119473.html)- the Military is getting the funding for the arrests and loss of due process against the civilian sector. You will continue to write failure to yield tickets though if that makes you feel better. I swear people have their heads so far up their butts they can smell their breath sometimes.

:supergrin:[/QUOTE]

Ok. Now you lost me. What does this have to do with the topic?

m2hmghb
12-14-2011, 20:54
Ok. Now you lost me. What does this have to do with the topic?

He's just trying to side track the thread so it will end up a shouting match and it gets closed. He's trolling, what he normally does.

RussP
12-14-2011, 21:21
There is a concept called totality of circumstances, Javelin. Are you familiar with it? It involves collecting and looking at all facts that determines the outcome of a situation.

In this case, you took one sentence of Sam's statement and hung it out as the complete description of Sam's position when, in fact, it isn't. Here are the quotes.There are three significant categories of people we deal with: victims, witnesses and suspects. If you're in a shooting, it's pretty clear that you're not a witness. So: victim or suspect? Where do you want to be filed, how do you want to set the tone for everything that follows?

If you're a victim, act like one. Victims do NOT invoke their right against sefl-incrimination. What they do is everything they can to make sure the bad guy gets caught.

At the same time, I understand people's fear of arrest and lawsuits. What I recommend is a basic statement. Identify yourself as the victim, including a rough description of the crime. Point out evidence and witnesses before they disappear. Describe the bad guys that got away. Then, politely stop talking. Something along the lines of, "Officer, I know that people get sued by criminals all the time and I don't want that to happen. I'll tell you things in detail as soon as I can talk to my lawyer." That's a whole lot more understandable, especially to a street cop, than someone who invokes or totally refuses.

Will you still be arrested? It really depends, mostly on circumstances but also on location. I know you're picturing shooting Mumar the Terrorist as he's about to kill a bus load of nuns and orphans, or maybe The Ripper as he's about to cut you. But reality is that you might end up shooting your crazy ex-'s new boy toy right after she came over to pick up her things. Or your cheating business partner who's boinking your wife on the side. NO ONE has a private life so unsullied that he can't end up is some real grey situations. But if you're a taxpayer defending yourself from an honest-to-goodness street crime (which is not the samething as a payment dispute over teener of meth), the odds are heavily on your side.

I don't agree with this at all. If you are talking to the Law you need a Lawyer. I would not care about the criminal case so much as the civil that will inevitably follow even in the best of case self defense.

So - Lawyer or else pay the price later with all of your hard earned cash pulling back word play that their legal team will do everything and anything they can to extort money from your wallet in court.Now, your position about lawyering up is well established. There are plenty of stories about people getting themselves into trouble by saying too much in the wrong way. But, if you read all, ALL of Sam's post and weigh all those parts, Sam is offering good advice on how to improve your chances of staying out of trouble.

First, you need the proper mindset. You are the victim. How does a victim act? What are the differences between the behavior of a victim and the behavior of a suspect? Is there anything you can do to prepare yourself so there can be no mistake from the outset you are the victim? Remember, you are, as Sam said, "You're a taxpayer defending yourself from an honest-to-goodness street crime."

That's Sam's post.

RussP
12-14-2011, 21:48
Here's the thing defense attorneys want you to do - shut up and call them.

I wonder how many people sit down before an event and spend an hour discussing the 'what-ifs' with their attorney.

I wonder how many people ask their attorney how bad it went for their clients when that client talked to the police after a self defense shooting.

Come to think about it, I wonder how many people's attorney has actually defended a self defense criminal case.

How about asking how many civil lawsuits expected by many to immediately follow a no-bill grand jury, an acquittal has the attorney handled.

Do all y'all with an attorney on speed dial know the answers to those questions?

Okay, so you and your attorney decide it is best for you to not say anything to anybody, other than you will speak only after consulting with your attorney.

What if there are friends of the person you shot there. Some may have been there originally, some came late to the party. All of them are more than willing to tell police EXACTLY what happened. There's a problem. Their version is totally different than what really happened. Have you and your attorney discussed how you are going to handle people lying in your face about what happened. You've told the cops you are not going to talk. The woman in the house across the street knows the good man you just shot. She saw you just draw and shoot him for no reason. She didn't hear any warning you gave. She telling the cops, and others around her are saying, "Yeah, that's what happened."

Your adrenalin is going to be pumping because you shot someone. Now it is going up to a new level because people are lying about you, about what happened. Are you going to be able to keep your mouth shut? Will keeping your mouth shut help you?

What about all the camera phones these people are pointing at you? You know you are going to be on YouTube before you get a chance to do anything about it. The media will for sure be getting copies. More adrenalin gets pumped into your system. Have you ever had that much adrenalin on board and tried to think rationally?

Yeah, maybe it is a good idea for you to not talk to the police. You'd run your mouth, get mad at the people around you, by now you might even have peed your pants.

Another question: Do you practice drawing and firing your weapon? Of course you do, silly me.

Well, how about you spend time with your attorney and develop a couple of scenarios and what you would be wise to say to a cop interviewing you. Then practice saying what is agreed on as often as you go to the range and shoot. If you can't imagine that much adrenalin and how you'd act, then get a friend to roll play with you. Tell him/her to try and make you mad, crazy mad. Then you start saying what happened. Then shut up.

Remember, you will not be on the internet. You'll not be able to edit your "post". There is no delete key.

Oh, and about calling that attorney. Practice punching in his/her number with your hands shaking so hard you can barely hold the little cell phone.

The other thing you might want to do is get to know some of the cops in your area. If there is a ride-along program, take advantage of it. Learn what it is like on the street from a cops perspective. Listen to how they do their jobs. That knowledge can help you be more calm when the SHTF.

Figure out what will work best for you and practice.see that part in red? I agree 100% with you Jerry.

That cannot be stressed enough. You will not be able to control what the other people say or do - what the plaintiff will have to prove is that what happened actually happened and that is where you better have a good lawyer. The more you say the more money it is going to cost you to pull back words - words that will be twisted / misunderstood by those listening or misscommunicated by you.

I have been involved in live fire shoots where **** went south and in a hurry. There was no way right afterwards that I could have totally described the incident or given severely accurate details of the entire incident... why would a personal defense shooting be the same? I guess if you are a super hero like Sam you can.First, who the hell is Jerry?

Here you go again picking one sentence out of my post (not Jerry's) and ignoring all the facts that mitigate that problem you highlighted.

How are you going to learn anything new when you keep ignoring all the important parts of our posts?

Sam Spade
12-14-2011, 22:06
You (if you are a cop) are not there to help the person but to collect evidence.


My job, like every cop's, is to determine the facts of the matter. Everyone, not just you, needs to fully understand that. This being a justified self-defense scenario---the OP said so---how can determining the truth do anything *but* help you?

Lawyer up, witnesses disappear, evidence is lost, the bad guy and his friends get the only words in---how is that better for you?

You ought not be equating honesty with bad motives or personality traits. Fact is, all opinions aren't created equal. I'm not sorry about that, it's just the way it is.

merlynusn
12-14-2011, 22:13
That cannot be stressed enough. You will not be able to control what the other people say or do - what the plaintiff will have to prove is that what happened actually happened and that is where you better have a good lawyer. The more you say the more money it is going to cost you to pull back words - words that will be twisted / misunderstood by those listening or misscommunicated by you.

If an innocent man can be convicted of something he did not do, such as all the alleged rapists being cleared by DNA evidence not available at the time of the crime, than an innocent man can indeed incriminate himself. It's best to give name, rank, serial number, identify yourself as the victim, promise full cooperation but with the assistance of an attorney.

Whatever you do, never try to transform a justifyiable shooting into an accidental one in the mistaken belief that the cops/courts will go easier on you. Once you let it be known that in your mind, the shooting wasn't necessary, which means it was avoidable, then you deny yourself the defense of justification.

Seriously? Name, rank, serial number? You are not a prisoner of war. You are supposedly the victim in a justifiable shooting. Act like it.

And while I understand people wanting an attorney. How long will it take to get one down to the police station? If someone says they can have an attorney there within an hour, sure, go right ahead and we can get this show on the road. But unless you are in custody, you actually don't have a right to an attorney. Miranda only applies when two conditions are met: Custody AND interrogation. When only one applies, Miranda is not required.

The problem comes in when you invoke and it will take 6 hours to get an attorney there, the police are probably not going to wait unless they have to. If they have enough evidence that you did it and you are acting like a suspect, then they will probably arrest you and charge you with the shooting. You make the comment that it is better to have your lawyer there with you so he can make sure you don't do say something wrong and have to walk it back.

If your shooting was so borderline, then maybe you shouldn't have fired your weapon. Before you ever shoot you must know that it is justified and legal and you better be willing to accept the consequences. What is better, paying a lawyer for 50 hours to get you off on a shooting or telling the truth over 2 hours and not getting arrested in the first place. I've seen people talk themselves into getting arrested for violent crimes because they tell the police what they think they want to hear.

The poster who said that self defense is an assertion is correct. If you defended yourself, then you have to admit to the act and explain why you did it and why it was justified.

RussP
12-14-2011, 22:29
My job, like every cop's, is to determine the facts of the matter. Everyone, not just you, needs to fully understand that. This being a justified self-defense scenario---the OP said so---how can determining the truth do anything *but* help you?

Lawyer up, witnesses disappear, evidence is lost, the bad guy and his friends get the only words in---how is that better for you?

You ought not be equating honesty with bad motives or personality traits. Fact is, all opinions aren't created equal. I'm not sorry about that, it's just the way it is.In the time it takes to get an attorney involved all that and more can, will, has happened.

RussP
12-14-2011, 22:39
words that will be twisted / misunderstood by those listening or misscommunicated by you. Carry an audio recorder. Record your conversation with the investigating officer.I have been involved in live fire shoots where **** went south and in a hurry.Where were your live fire shoots? There was no way right afterwards that I could have totally described the incident or given severely accurate details of the entire incident... why would a personal defense shooting be the same?In my long post you quoted, but you only addressed the one sentence, I discussed how you can prepare for the aftermath. I've described the process in other threads, too. I guess if you are a super hero like Sam you can.It isn't that Sam is a super hero, it is that he is trained to notice details under stress and remember them. It is something everyone carrying for self defense should do. There's no sense claiming you have excellent situational awareness if you cannot remember what you saw.

Sippo
12-15-2011, 08:39
Here's the thing defense attorneys want you to do - shut up and call them.

I wonder how many people sit down before an event and spend an hour discussing the 'what-ifs' with their attorney.

I wonder how many people ask their attorney how bad it went for their clients when that client talked to the police after a self defense shooting.

Come to think about it, I wonder how many people's attorney has actually defended a self defense criminal case.

How about asking how many civil lawsuits expected by many to immediately follow a no-bill grand jury, an acquittal has the attorney handled.

Do all y'all with an attorney on speed dial know the answers to those questions?

Okay, so you and your attorney decide it is best for you to not say anything to anybody, other than you will speak only after consulting with your attorney.

What if there are friends of the person you shot there. Some may have been there originally, some came late to the party. All of them are more than willing to tell police EXACTLY what happened. There's a problem. Their version is totally different than what really happened. Have you and your attorney discussed how you are going to handle people lying in your face about what happened. You've told the cops you are not going to talk. The woman in the house across the street knows the good man you just shot. She saw you just draw and shoot him for no reason. She didn't hear any warning you gave. She telling the cops, and others around her are saying, "Yeah, that's what happened."

Your adrenalin is going to be pumping because you shot someone. Now it is going up to a new level because people are lying about you, about what happened. Are you going to be able to keep your mouth shut? Will keeping your mouth shut help you?

What about all the camera phones these people are pointing at you? You know you are going to be on YouTube before you get a chance to do anything about it. The media will for sure be getting copies. More adrenalin gets pumped into your system. Have you ever had that much adrenalin on board and tried to think rationally?

Yeah, maybe it is a good idea for you to not talk to the police. You'd run your mouth, get mad at the people around you, by now you might even have peed your pants.

Another question: Do you practice drawing and firing your weapon? Of course you do, silly me.

Well, how about you spend time with your attorney and develop a couple of scenarios and what you would be wise to say to a cop interviewing you. Then practice saying what is agreed on as often as you go to the range and shoot. If you can't imagine that much adrenalin and how you'd act, then get a friend to roll play with you. Tell him/her to try and make you mad, crazy mad. Then you start saying what happened. Then shut up.

Remember, you will not be on the internet. You'll not be able to edit your "post". There is no delete key.

Oh, and about calling that attorney. Practice punching in his/her number with your hands shaking so hard you can barely hold the little cell phone.

The other thing you might want to do is get to know some of the cops in your area. If there is a ride-along program, take advantage of it. Learn what it is like on the street from a cops perspective. Listen to how they do their jobs. That knowledge can help you be more calm when the SHTF.

Figure out what will work best for you and practice.

Russ, I like your style. Get's me thinking about the disparities between how we train and the actual challenges we must meet in an actual self defense shoot.

CJStudent
12-15-2011, 09:19
Is Dean back on here under another name?

DaBigBR
12-15-2011, 09:22
Is Dean back on here under another name?

SON!

:drillsgt:

Javelin
12-15-2011, 09:48
Carry an audio recorder. Record your conversation with the investigating officer.Where were your live fire shoots? In my long post you quoted, but you only addressed the one sentence, I discussed how you can prepare for the aftermath. I've described the process in other threads, too. It isn't that Sam is a super hero, it is that he is trained to notice details under stress and remember them. It is something everyone carrying for self defense should do. There's no sense claiming you have excellent situational awareness if you cannot remember what you saw.

That's a lot of questioning RussP - I know this is a LEO forum but. Bottom line is that LEO are paid by the miniciples to collect evidence and Sam telling folks that innocent people do not invoke their rights is BS and everyone should know it. You put a lawyer on retainer and the first thing he will tell you is to not say anything until you talk to him. Why? Because it will make his job infinitely harder when you open your trap. Japanese proverb - The mouth is often the source of misfortune.

The more you say the more expensive it is going to be for you in civil court as everything is being recorded either by electronic means or being written down (correct or not correct). Having a lawyer communicate everything takes care of any misscommunication in the matter and will not cost you an arm and an leg firghting the slew of litigation that is sure to follow.

My firefights, raids, and street-street fighting were done in Iraq. I was an Infantry Captain but had to leave due to my combat injuries.

RussP
12-15-2011, 12:19
Carry an audio recorder. Record your conversation with the investigating officer.Where were your live fire shoots? In my long post you quoted, but you only addressed the one sentence, I discussed how you can prepare for the aftermath. I've described the process in other threads, too. It isn't that Sam is a super hero, it is that he is trained to notice details under stress and remember them. It is something everyone carrying for self defense should do. There's no sense claiming you have excellent situational awareness if you cannot remember what you saw.

That's a lot of questioning RussP - I know this is a LEO forum but.Actually, Javelin, there is only one question in what you quoted. Your answer confirmed my thoughts. Thank you for your service and sacrifices.

Being in Cop Talk has no bearing on my asking questions. I do it everywhere to gather information so I have all information I need to comment. I also do it to get people to think, to get them to ask questions of themselves...Russ, I like your style. Get's me thinking about the disparities between how we train and the actual challenges we must meet in an actual self defense shoot....even cops.Bottom line is that LEO are paid by the miniciples to collect evidence and Sam telling folks that innocent people do not invoke their rights is BS and everyone should know it.Is that what Sam said, really? Here again you are isolating one part of a multiple part post. Didn't you read my post?There is a concept called totality of circumstances, Javelin. Are you familiar with it? It involves collecting and looking at all facts that determines the outcome of a situation.

In this case, you took one sentence of Sam's statement and hung it out as the complete description of Sam's position when, in fact, it isn't. Here are the quotes.

Now, your position about lawyering up is well established. There are plenty of stories about people getting themselves into trouble by saying too much in the wrong way. But, if you read all, ALL of Sam's post and weigh all those parts, Sam is offering good advice on how to improve your chances of staying out of trouble.

First, you need the proper mindset. You are the victim. How does a victim act? What are the differences between the behavior of a victim and the behavior of a suspect? Is there anything you can do to prepare yourself so there can be no mistake from the outset you are the victim? Remember, you are, as Sam said, "You're a taxpayer defending yourself from an honest-to-goodness street crime."

That's Sam's post. Let me put it this way.

When you are in combat, do you only pay attention to one element of the fight, it's called tunnel vision, I am very familiar, too familiar with it myself, or do you consider everything and fight according to the totality of circumstances? Same here, Captain. your tunnel vision is evident. When you have tunnel vision, you must turn your head or body to view what use to be in your peripheral vision, right? You need to do that now.You put a lawyer on retainer and the first thing he will tell you is to not say anything until you talk to him. Why? Because it will make his job infinitely harder when you open your trap. Japanese proverb - The mouth is often the source of misfortune.Remember this post. I'm going to structure it a little differently making it easier for you to respond.Here's the thing defense attorneys want you to do - shut up and call them.


Javeline, have you or anyone you know sat down before an event and spend an hour discussing the 'what-ifs' with their attorney.


Javeline, have you or anyone you know personally asked an attorney how bad it went for their clients when that client talked to the police after a self defense shooting.


Javeline, have you or anyone you know asked an attorney whether he or she has actually defended a self defense criminal case.


Javeline, have you or anyone you know asked how many civil lawsuits expected by many to immediately follow a no-bill grand jury, an acquittal has the attorney handled.


Javeline, have you or anyone you know with an attorney on speed dial know the answers to those questions?


Javeline, do you or anyone you know practice drawing and firing your weapon? Of course you do, silly me.


Javeline, have you or those you know spent time with your attorney developing a couple of scenarios and what you would be wise to say to a cop interviewing you.


Javeline, do you or anyone you know think it would be wise to then practice saying what is agreed on as often as you go to the range and shoot.


Javeline, have you or anyone you know practiced punching in his/her number with your hands shaking so hard you can barely hold the little cell phone.


Javeline, have you or anyone you know made efforts to get to know some of the cops in your area?


Javeline, have you or anyone you know, if there is a ride-along program, have you taken advantage of it? Learn what it is like on the street from a cops perspective. Listen to how they do their jobs. That knowledge can help you be more calm when the SHTF.


Javeline, would you or anyone you know agree that one should figure out what will work best for them and then practice execution of that decision?
Looking forward to your answers.

The more you say the more expensive it is going to be for you in civil court as everything is being recorded either by electronic means or being written down (correct or not correct).But, if you are concerned that someone will write down something incorrectly, would it not be prudent to carry your own recording device? How about requesting your on-scene statement be captured by a police dash cam? The other alternative is to not speak verbally. Then you need only worry about your body language. While that may require a recognized expert's testimony in a criminal trial, a good, average attorney will be able to get plain old witnesses to testify as to how they observed your behavior to be.Having a lawyer communicate everything takes care of any misscommunication in the matter and will not cost you an arm and an leg firghting the slew of litigation that is sure to follow.Javelin, I have corrected attorneys on several occasions. I fired one the same day. I deducted $15,000 from the bill of another. Attorneys can, do and will make mistakes. They are not the answer to all problems, or so it has been in my experience.My firefights, raids, and street-street fighting were done in Iraq. I was an Infantry Captain but had to leave due to my combat injuries.Again, thank you!

Sam Spade
12-15-2011, 13:50
Sam telling folks that innocent people do not invoke their rights


That's not what my post said. That's not even what the lone sentence of my post which you keep taking out of context said, though perhaps that difference is minimal. If you can't get the meaning of four paragraphs in plain English, then yeah, maybe you ought to hire someone to do all your talking for you.

I'd suggest that if someone can be trained to use force to take a human life, he can be trained to report on the situation that required that use of force. And the converse: Anyone who can't explain why deadly force is needed has no business using it.

RussP
12-15-2011, 14:49
That's not what my post said. That's not even what the lone sentence of my post which you keep taking out of context said, though perhaps that difference is minimal. If you can't get the meaning of four paragraphs in plain English, then yeah, maybe you ought to hire someone to do all your talking for you.

I'd suggest that if someone can be trained to use force to take a human life, he can be trained to report on the situation that required that use of force. And the converse: Anyone who can't explain why deadly force is needed has no business using it.Yep...

Javelin
12-15-2011, 15:04
My job, like every cop's, is to determine the facts of the matter. Everyone, not just you, needs to fully understand that. This being a justified self-defense scenario---the OP said so---how can determining the truth do anything *but* help you?

Lawyer up, witnesses disappear, evidence is lost, the bad guy and his friends get the only words in---how is that better for you?

You ought not be equating honesty with bad motives or personality traits. Fact is, all opinions aren't created equal. I'm not sorry about that, it's just the way it is.

Victims do NOT invoke their right against sefl-incrimination.

That is your quote Sam. It is a complete sentence in full syntax.

Fact of the matter is if you and I were in a court in civil litigation I would be using everything you said against you. And that full sentence there - no matter what you decided it means to you does not mean the same to me (obviously) because I just quoted you verbatim - your full sentence that victimes do not invoke their rights against self incrimination - see my point Sam?

And I didn't say what to do in regards to the crime scene. I am not a lawyer - nor do I pretend to be one on TV - obviously you are going to have to make the decision to run around and find witnesses. Maybe there are witnesses maybe not. You can agree that most instances of domestic violence and shootings occur in the home.... witnesses will tell their side of the story and if there are any you will need to get their information (name/address if needed) the logical stuff. But talking to the police in detail is not going to be high on the priority list. Criminal sentencing is not as scary as Civil as the truth will most likely come out in a Criminal case but in a Civil case it is all about emotion and the jury will listen to all evidence presented in full and or partial syntax. Just the facts of life.

:rofl:

Javelin
12-15-2011, 15:14
To answer your question RussP about tunnel vision. I would love to tell you that I totally understood the situation as it developed and that when exchanging fire I had everything under control and was processing the pariferals of what was going on.

Honestly - I was just trying to stay alive & take care of my men. I try to get on the radio to call it in and get a front line trace the first chance I get (same as dialing 911 I guess). Adreneline is not the word for it when in a shoot - at least not for me. I have never been high on anything in my life but during and immediately after a shoot it feels like a bad nightmare - I can imagine that the flow of blood and increased oxygen consumption during close in fighting would replicate being on speed.

And afterwards after fighting I was tired. Very very mentally tired. Things are gruesome and I hope nobody has to defend their life or fire shots in anger. Blood gets sticky as it coagulates on your clothing - death has a smell to it that is aweful and I cannot describe it. After a defensive fight for your life I am sure that some of those realities will surface and be experienced. I still re-live some of those events - defending yourself is natural but taking life is not.

No way I would have cognitive functions immediateley following a shoot - no way. And for that matter I can say ultimately that I would not want to be prosecuted over facts & statements given at that time and place due to the fog of such a traumatic event.

EDIT: I don't really care what people say or do after a defense shooting - I know my limitations and I guess folks just need to know theirs. Audie Murphy could probably give a explanation after a shoot but that does not mean all of us can.

Sam Spade
12-15-2011, 17:27
That is your quote Sam. It is a complete sentence in full syntax.

Fact of the matter is if you and I were in a court in civil litigation I would be using everything you said against you. And that full sentence there - no matter what you decided it means to you does not mean the same to me (obviously) because I just quoted you verbatim - your full sentence that victimes do not invoke their rights against self incrimination - see my point Sam?

And I didn't say what to do in regards to the crime scene. I am not a lawyer - nor do I pretend to be one on TV - obviously you are going to have to make the decision to run around and find witnesses. Maybe there are witnesses maybe not. You can agree that most instances of domestic violence and shootings occur in the home.... witnesses will tell their side of the story and if there are any you will need to get their information (name/address if needed) the logical stuff. But talking to the police in detail is not going to be high on the priority list. Criminal sentencing is not as scary as Civil as the truth will most likely come out in a Criminal case but in a Civil case it is all about emotion and the jury will listen to all evidence presented in full and or partial syntax. Just the facts of life.

:rofl:

No, Jav. While it may be in "syntax" it's not in "context". To save you the trouble of flipping back to page one, here it is. I invite your attention to the part in red.


There are three significant categories of people we deal with: victims, witnesses and suspects. If you're in a shooting, it's pretty clear that you're not a witness. So: victim or suspect? Where do you want to be filed, how do you want to set the tone for everything that follows?

If you're a victim, act like one. Victims do NOT invoke their right against sefl-incrimination. What they do is everything they can to make sure the bad guy gets caught.

At the same time, I understand people's fear of arrest and lawsuits. What I recommend is a basic statement. Identify yourself as the victim, including a rough description of the crime. Point out evidence and witnesses before they disappear. Describe the bad guys that got away. Then, politely stop talking. Something along the lines of, "Officer, I know that people get sued by criminals all the time and I don't want that to happen. I'll tell you things in detail as soon as I can talk to my lawyer." That's a whole lot more understandable, especially to a street cop, than someone who invokes or totally refuses.

Will you still be arrested? It really depends, mostly on circumstances but also on location. I know you're picturing shooting Mumar the Terrorist as he's about to kill a bus load of nuns and orphans, or maybe The Ripper as he's about to cut you. But reality is that you might end up shooting your crazy ex-'s new boy toy right after she came over to pick up her things. Or your cheating business partner who's boinking your wife on the side. NO ONE has a private life so unsullied that he can't end up is some real grey situations. But if you're a taxpayer defending yourself from an honest-to-goodness street crime (which is not the samething as a payment dispute over teener of meth), the odds are heavily on your side.


The rest of your post is rot. Sorry, it is. Get yourself to a class, or get yourself to some field where you will have actual experience. You don't understand criminal vs civil, you don't understand what evidence gets to come in or not, your idea that prison, loss of civil rights for life and fines (criminal sentencing) isn't as bad as a civil judgement is mind-blowingly silly. It's rot.

You don't know what you don't know, and you're making no real effort to find out. As such, you simply can't be reasoned with.

I'll be back if something of substance comes up, but I'm not hopeful.

Sharky7
12-15-2011, 17:29
That's a lot of questioning RussP - I know this is a LEO forum but. Bottom line is that LEO are paid by the miniciples to collect evidence and Sam telling folks that innocent people do not invoke their rights is BS and everyone should know it. You put a lawyer on retainer and the first thing he will tell you is to not say anything until you talk to him. Why? Because it will make his job infinitely harder when you open your trap. Japanese proverb - The mouth is often the source of misfortune.

The more you say the more expensive it is going to be for you in civil court as everything is being recorded either by electronic means or being written down (correct or not correct). Having a lawyer communicate everything takes care of any misscommunication in the matter and will not cost you an arm and an leg firghting the slew of litigation that is sure to follow.

My firefights, raids, and street-street fighting were done in Iraq. I was an Infantry Captain but had to leave due to my combat injuries.

Lawyers bill you for their time.....Guess how they will make more money.

It's like when people say "I did not have any alcohol to drink, but the lawyer told me not to blow." Well, if you really didn't have anything to drink and were to just go ahead and blow and show that - you could save yourself a few thousand dollars in lawyer fees and missed time from work for court appearances by not catching a DUI case.

Sam's advice is basically the same thing that WE as police officers do if we are involved in a shooting. If we are involved in a shooting - we can't get away with refusing to make any statements at all. The public is at danger, there may still be offenders on the run, evidence to collect, obviously the other officers need to know what to charge the bad guy with, etc.

He is speaking from experience - I can confirm his advice is solid. When the bad guy's friends start coming out of the wood work though saying you are a murderer who attacked without provocation, take a guess what the officers will do when you refuse to make statements.

Sharky7
12-15-2011, 17:35
He is speaking from experience - I can confirm his advice is solid. When the bad guy's friends start coming out of the wood work though saying you are a murderer who attacked without provocation, take a guess what the officers will do when you refuse to make statements.

Is it wrong to quote yourself? Anyways....

Depending on your town, a self defense shooting could be HUGE news. If you refuse to even make a very basic statement and end up getting charged because witnesses or offenders are giving stories painting you as the offender - it will start some nasty rumor mills around in the press. You will be fighting uphill battles to "clear" your name if you get charged. Think that could taint a jury?

Dragoon44
12-15-2011, 19:31
No one is going to make a real dent in his mindset. His views are firmly based and nourished by his ideology, facts, and actual experience mean nothing to the true believer. The ideology is the root of the problem the rest are just the symptoms (branches)

RussP
12-15-2011, 19:39
Well, maybe, Dragoon, there is a lurker reading this who will use the information positively.

oldgraywolf
12-15-2011, 19:43
Well, maybe, Dragoon, there is a lurker reading this who will use the information positively.

Yep. Thanks for all the information, hope I never need it.

Dragoon44
12-15-2011, 19:53
Well, maybe, Dragoon, there is a lurker reading this who will use the information positively.

Precisely which is why I just informed them what his real problem is.

:supergrin::wavey:

eaglefrq
12-15-2011, 20:27
I have talked with an attorney and have his information in the event I ever need one. His advice to me was "Keep Your Big Mouth Shut" (I know this was said in jest) and contact him immediately. I did not talk with him about any other cases he has tried, because I didn't think about it. I will also ask about some possible scenarios and the best course of action. These are some good questions to ask, and I will get in touch with him as soon as possible to find out the answers.

I understand the need for the basic statement, especially if the BG is able to leave the scene or his friends start painting you as the aggressor.

I do have a couple of questions for the LEO's here when it comes to a person involved in a SD shooting:

* Have you dealt with a person that made statements that were used against him?

* Have you seen a person that was able to stop talking?

* Would it best to have the initial basic statement caught on dash cam? (This could be good and bad, based on your state of mind)

I've never been involved in a shooting, but I've been in some very stressful situations and I know it can be very difficult to think straight.

OXCOPS
12-15-2011, 21:00
Yes, I've had statements used against people. Yes, I have also seen people know when to stop talking. Some will. Some won't.

Javelin
12-16-2011, 00:09
No, Jav. While it may be in "syntax" it's not in "context". To save you the trouble of flipping back to page one, here it is. I invite your attention to the part in red.





The rest of your post is rot. Sorry, it is. Get yourself to a class, or get yourself to some field where you will have actual experience. You don't understand criminal vs civil, you don't understand what evidence gets to come in or not, your idea that prison, loss of civil rights for life and fines (criminal sentencing) isn't as bad as a civil judgement is mind-blowingly silly. It's rot.

You don't know what you don't know, and you're making no real effort to find out. As such, you simply can't be reasoned with.

I'll be back if something of substance comes up, but I'm not hopeful.

You once again proved my statement. I do not know or understand the entire system of how things work as I am not a Lawyer nor did I study Law. Therefore when dealing in such issues it is best that I have someone who has 20+ years of experience, a Law degree, and a working knowledge of such. I figure if I have to defend myself I will get names & addresses of anyone that saw the event for my Lawyer to subpeona later in testimony and I also expect the Police to do a good job collecting evidence and provide me security as we go downtown to discuss things with my Lawyer present - I mean let's not kid ourselves we are going downtown anyway.

Rot or not - I know that you can say whatever you want - you cannot however pull any of it back. I have a good Lawyer's number programmed into my cell for such emergencies. The time to start pulling the yellow pages and digging for a Lawyer is not when you needed one 15 minutes ago. Don't get all butt hurt Sam. It's a matter of what works for you and works for me.

Javelin
12-16-2011, 00:16
Lawyers bill you for their time.....Guess how they will make more money.

It's like when people say "I did not have any alcohol to drink, but the lawyer told me not to blow." Well, if you really didn't have anything to drink and were to just go ahead and blow and show that - you could save yourself a few thousand dollars in lawyer fees and missed time from work for court appearances by not catching a DUI case.

Sam's advice is basically the same thing that WE as police officers do if we are involved in a shooting. If we are involved in a shooting - we can't get away with refusing to make any statements at all. The public is at danger, there may still be offenders on the run, evidence to collect, obviously the other officers need to know what to charge the bad guy with, etc.

He is speaking from experience - I can confirm his advice is solid. When the bad guy's friends start coming out of the wood work though saying you are a murderer who attacked without provocation, take a guess what the officers will do when you refuse to make statements.

Ok the what if's of what the bad guy's friends are going to say we could go back and forth for weeks in the hypothetical. Let me save you the trouble and agree that the Bad Guy's Friends are going to say whatever they are going to say no matter what you say.

When it comes time for trial it will not matter to the Jury if your statement was made at the scene of the crime or a couple hours later with your Lawyer representing you. The statement you make will matter - and it better be 100% true and correct and not damning or anything that can be misconstrued or twisted by the Plaintiff. Paying $250/hour from the start will save you THOUSANDS and THOUSANDS of dollars trying to pull back one stupid or not completely thought-out remark or incomplete sentence. Even if you pause and it is being recorded (which it probably will be these days) could hurt you... I am not willing to take that chance and as much as I hate lawyers I still will not take that chance. Legal system is too flawed.

RussP
12-16-2011, 06:14
You once again proved my statement. I do not know or understand the entire system of how things work as I am not a Lawyer nor did I study Law.Therein lies a problem which is becoming more prevalent as the number of people who begin carrying increases. It is our duty to ourselves and our loved ones to have much, much more than an average understanding of how the system works, how all sides of the system works.

If you choose not to, fine. Carrying for self defense requires many personal decisions. That would be one of them. Therefore when dealing in such issues it is best that I have someone who has 20+ years of experience, a Law degree, and a working knowledge of such.But, understanding how to work the system in your favor before the attorney gets involved could help you both. To do that, however, requires knowledge of the system. I figure if I have to defend myself I will get names & addresses of anyone that saw the event for my Lawyer to subpeona later in testimonyHow are you going to gather that information if you are sitting in the back of a police car? Do you even believe it is a good idea to personally interview witnesses when you have told police you are not talking? and I also expect the Police to do a good job collecting evidence and provide me security as we go downtown to discuss things with my Lawyer present - I mean let's not kid ourselves we are going downtown anyway.How are they going to do that if you do not talk to them, provide them with information about what happened, who witnessed it, who ran from the scene?Rot or not - I know that you can say whatever you want - you cannot however pull any of it back. I have a good Lawyer's number programmed into my cell for such emergencies. The time to start pulling the yellow pages and digging for a Lawyer is not when you needed one 15 minutes ago. Don't get all butt hurt Sam. It's a matter of what works for you and works for me.Well, I always say, what is good and right for one person may be deadly wrong for another.

By the way, there is a lot more in this post you did not respond to...Carry an audio recorder. Record your conversation with the investigating officer.Where were your live fire shoots? In my long post you quoted, but you only addressed the one sentence, I discussed how you can prepare for the aftermath. I've described the process in other threads, too. It isn't that Sam is a super hero, it is that he is trained to notice details under stress and remember them. It is something everyone carrying for self defense should do. There's no sense claiming you have excellent situational awareness if you cannot remember what you saw.

That's a lot of questioning RussP - I know this is a LEO forum but.Actually, Javelin, there is only one question in what you quoted. Your answer confirmed my thoughts. Thank you for your service and sacrifices.

Being in Cop Talk has no bearing on my asking questions. I do it everywhere to gather information so I have all information I need to comment. I also do it to get people to think, to get them to ask questions of themselves...Russ, I like your style. Get's me thinking about the disparities between how we train and the actual challenges we must meet in an actual self defense shoot....even cops.Bottom line is that LEO are paid by the miniciples to collect evidence and Sam telling folks that innocent people do not invoke their rights is BS and everyone should know it.Is that what Sam said, really? Here again you are isolating one part of a multiple part post. Didn't you read my post?There is a concept called totality of circumstances, Javelin. Are you familiar with it? It involves collecting and looking at all facts that determines the outcome of a situation.

In this case, you took one sentence of Sam's statement and hung it out as the complete description of Sam's position when, in fact, it isn't. Here are the quotes.

Now, your position about lawyering up is well established. There are plenty of stories about people getting themselves into trouble by saying too much in the wrong way. But, if you read all, ALL of Sam's post and weigh all those parts, Sam is offering good advice on how to improve your chances of staying out of trouble.

First, you need the proper mindset. You are the victim. How does a victim act? What are the differences between the behavior of a victim and the behavior of a suspect? Is there anything you can do to prepare yourself so there can be no mistake from the outset you are the victim? Remember, you are, as Sam said, "You're a taxpayer defending yourself from an honest-to-goodness street crime."

That's Sam's post. You put a lawyer on retainer and the first thing he will tell you is to not say anything until you talk to him. Why? Because it will make his job infinitely harder when you open your trap. Japanese proverb - The mouth is often the source of misfortune.Remember this post. I'm going to structure it a little differently making it easier for you to respond.Here's the thing defense attorneys want you to do - shut up and call them.


Javeline, have you or anyone you know sat down before an event and spend an hour discussing the 'what-ifs' with their attorney.


Javeline, have you or anyone you know personally asked an attorney how bad it went for their clients when that client talked to the police after a self defense shooting.


Javeline, have you or anyone you know asked an attorney whether he or she has actually defended a self defense criminal case.


Javeline, have you or anyone you know asked how many civil lawsuits expected by many to immediately follow a no-bill grand jury, an acquittal has the attorney handled.


Javeline, have you or anyone you know with an attorney on speed dial know the answers to those questions?


Javeline, do you or anyone you know practice drawing and firing your weapon? Of course you do, silly me.


Javeline, have you or those you know spent time with your attorney developing a couple of scenarios and what you would be wise to say to a cop interviewing you.


Javeline, do you or anyone you know think it would be wise to then practice saying what is agreed on as often as you go to the range and shoot.


Javeline, have you or anyone you know practiced punching in his/her number with your hands shaking so hard you can barely hold the little cell phone.


Javeline, have you or anyone you know made efforts to get to know some of the cops in your area?


Javeline, have you or anyone you know, if there is a ride-along program, have you taken advantage of it? Learn what it is like on the street from a cops perspective. Listen to how they do their jobs. That knowledge can help you be more calm when the SHTF.


Javeline, would you or anyone you know agree that one should figure out what will work best for them and then practice execution of that decision?
Looking forward to your answers.

The more you say the more expensive it is going to be for you in civil court as everything is being recorded either by electronic means or being written down (correct or not correct).But, if you are concerned that someone will write down something incorrectly, would it not be prudent to carry your own recording device? How about requesting your on-scene statement be captured by a police dash cam? The other alternative is to not speak verbally. Then you need only worry about your body language. While that may require a recognized expert's testimony in a criminal trial, a good, average attorney will be able to get plain old witnesses to testify as to how they observed your behavior to be.Having a lawyer communicate everything takes care of any misscommunication in the matter and will not cost you an arm and an leg firghting the slew of litigation that is sure to follow.Javelin, I have corrected attorneys on several occasions. I fired one the same day. I deducted $15,000 from the bill of another. Attorneys can, do and will make mistakes. They are not the answer to all problems, or so it has been in my experience.

Sharky7
12-16-2011, 11:52
Can't quote, I'm on my iPhone right now, sorry....

You said when it is time for trial. There is not always a criminal trial. If you used justified force, you did what you were supposed to do, then the police don't charge you. The job of the police is to investigate the incident, they only charge people when a crime has been committed. I go to calls all the time of justified force, good guy walks away and goes home. Same thing for fight calls, just because you throw a punch does not make you a criminal.

The problem without making even a basic statement is that the investigators only get one side of the story and it is not yours. Depending on what is said, they could possibly make a warrantless arrest of you. Don't expect your bond amount to be low when you are charged with murder or attempted murder.

As Russ said, lawyers aren't always the savior people think they are on glocktalk. It is common for attorneys to overbook their clients to make more money. On the day of the trial as you are walking up to the stand they are asking about the details of the case - I kid you not.

Sam Spade
12-16-2011, 14:18
Same thing for fight calls, just because you throw a punch does not make you a criminal.

This is a good example. Take the gun out of the equation; you get jumped by a couple of guys. Are you going to lawyer up on your way to the hospital? Or are you going to lawyer up when you won the fight and broke free? Say it was a hard fight, and the only thing that saved you was picking up a rock and smacking one of them in the head. Are you going to remain silent and let his running buddy fade into the crowd? Are you going to be afraid to give a basic statement because you're too shook up?

In this thread, the gun doesn't transform one of the scenarios above into taboo. It just makes it more likely that you'll win without wounds. (Which may make your statement more important, but that's a tangent.) People want to *think* the gun is mystical and different, but it's not really. It's a tool, and it's nothing compared to the hand that wields it. ( :cool: )

What would you tell the police if you're standing there holding a bloody rock? That's what you should tell them if you've got a smoking gun.

Sgt127
12-16-2011, 15:11
Sam,

I can make it even more innocent. You are involved in a car accident, the other driver ran a red light and plowed into you. They are claiming thier light was green, and, claiming grevious injuries. Would one still be best served by remaining silent and demanding to speak to an attorney before answering any questions? You could still be looking at criminal charges, you could still be looking at a civil suit.

Javelin
12-17-2011, 11:48
Therein lies a problem which is becoming more prevalent as the number of people who begin carrying increases. It is our duty to ourselves and our loved ones to have much, much more than an average understanding of how the system works, how all sides of the system works.

If you choose not to, fine. Carrying for self defense requires many personal decisions. That would be one of them.But, understanding how to work the system in your favor before the attorney gets involved could help you both. To do that, however, requires knowledge of the system.How are you going to gather that information if you are sitting in the back of a police car? Do you even believe it is a good idea to personally interview witnesses when you have told police you are not talking?How are they going to do that if you do not talk to them, provide them with information about what happened, who witnessed it, who ran from the scene?Well, I always say, what is good and right for one person may be deadly wrong for another.

By the way, there is a lot more in this post you did not respond to...

RussP I don't feel like going through every one of my personal history buttons and clicking individually through them. So that you & everyone can pick through them (just like they do in court - eh?) That's about it. Bottom line is I have never had even a speeding ticket in my life.

I follow the law and if I need assistance I don't mind paying a Lawyer $250/hour to handle it for me. Especially from the start - yeah it might make the cop mad but who cares? He isn't the judge, the jury, the prosecuting - he/she is merely there to collect facts and be a material witness to anything he/she sees. What facts I present will need to be in the form of assistance from someone that understands the legal system and that would be someone who is learned in all things legal - a Lawyer.

As far as getting witness names & information (if there even are any) is something that I would personally do. Yes.

And the police take a while to get there. It's not like you just hit Dial-A-Cop and poof there is one. Haha. That's funny right there if it was the case. Generally you are looking at AT LEAST a good few minutes for one to respond (most probably more in all honesty).

Javelin
12-17-2011, 11:55
Sam,

I can make it even more innocent. You are involved in a car accident, the other driver ran a red light and plowed into you. They are claiming thier light was green, and, claiming grevious injuries. Would one still be best served by remaining silent and demanding to speak to an attorney before answering any questions? You could still be looking at criminal charges, you could still be looking at a civil suit.

Depends if you are morphing this "what if" situation into just a car accident or a possible vehicular homicide scene.

I just fail to make the connection between a car accident and a defensive shooting complete with armed shooting of a suspect/perpetrator.

:dunno:

RussP
12-17-2011, 12:27
Depends if you are morphing this "what if" situation into just a car accident or a possible vehicular homicide scene.

I just fail to make the connection between a car accident and a defensive shooting complete with armed shooting of a suspect/perpetrator.

:dunno:See, you're extracting a part of the post and ignoring the question in the post: "Would one still be best served by remaining silent and demanding to speak to an attorney before answering any questions?"

Okay, let's do it this way.

You know the scenario: You are involved in a car accident, the other driver ran a red light and plowed into you. They are claiming their light was green, and, claiming grevious injuries.

The question: "Would one still be best served by remaining silent and demanding to speak to an attorney before answering any questions?"

They claim you ran the red light. Would you tell police your version of the story?

OXCOPS
12-17-2011, 12:33
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_xn-XSKk8Zfs/SmKMu7zQP8I/AAAAAAAACgc/ZjPCFXDEQ20/s400/15_cu-bad-penny_3422-B-web.JPG

RussP
12-17-2011, 12:38
As far as getting witness names & information (if there even are any) is something that I would personally do. Yes.That doesn't fit with your previous post...No way I would have cognitive functions immediateley following a shoot - no way. And for that matter I can say ultimately that I would not want to be prosecuted over facts & statements given at that time and place due to the fog of such a traumatic event.

EDIT: I don't really care what people say or do after a defense shooting - I know my limitations and I guess folks just need to know theirs. Audie Murphy could probably give a explanation after a shoot but that does not mean all of us can.

RussP
12-17-2011, 13:04
RussP I don't feel like going through every one of my personal history buttons and clicking individually through them. So that you & everyone can pick through them (just like they do in court - eh?) That's about it. Bottom line is I have never had even a speeding ticket in my life.You are referring to this? I changed to a numbered list.Remember this post. I'm going to structure it a little differently making it easier for you to respond.Here's the thing defense attorneys want you to do - shut up and call them.


Javeline, have you or anyone you know sat down before an event and spend an hour discussing the 'what-ifs' with their attorney.


Javeline, have you or anyone you know personally asked an attorney how bad it went for their clients when that client talked to the police after a self defense shooting.


Javeline, have you or anyone you know asked an attorney whether he or she has actually defended a self defense criminal case.


Javeline, have you or anyone you know asked how many civil lawsuits expected by many to immediately follow a no-bill grand jury, an acquittal has the attorney handled.


Javeline, have you or anyone you know with an attorney on speed dial know the answers to those questions?


Javeline, do you or anyone you know practice drawing and firing your weapon? Of course you do, silly me.


Javeline, have you or those you know spent time with your attorney developing a couple of scenarios and what you would be wise to say to a cop interviewing you.


Javeline, do you or anyone you know think it would be wise to then practice saying what is agreed on as often as you go to the range and shoot.


Javeline, have you or anyone you know practiced punching in his/her number with your hands shaking so hard you can barely hold the little cell phone.


Javeline, have you or anyone you know made efforts to get to know some of the cops in your area?


Javeline, have you or anyone you know, if there is a ride-along program, have you taken advantage of it? Learn what it is like on the street from a cops perspective. Listen to how they do their jobs. That knowledge can help you be more calm when the SHTF.


Javeline, would you or anyone you know agree that one should figure out what will work best for them and then practice execution of that decision?
Looking forward to your answers. I'll make it easier. Just put yes or no in the blank.

________

________

________

________

________

________

________

________

________

________

________

________
Okay, we know you aren't going to do that. You said so. Then is it fair to say your answer to all would be "No?"

flyboyvet
12-17-2011, 13:22
I talked with a local LE that I ran into at Starbucks about a self defense shoot and he said "Give responding officers your basic information and then ask for a lawyer" He made it clear that that was his opinion and that would be what he would do if he was in a civilian shoot. He also said to have at least the names of a couple lawyers who have experience with self defense shoots. Just use the internet to find lawyers who are versed in this type of defense.

Javelin
12-17-2011, 19:22
That doesn't fit with your previous post...

RussP - we are playing symantics of what-if games. What if- What-it What-if. What if you let shots ring out in a crowded building vs. your private residence (like right now). Witnesses are going to say whatever they are going to say RussP and you know that. It is the way it is and nothing you say is going to change that.

Bottom line is the less I say the better off I am going to be. The prosecution has to make the case against me - with full burden of proof. You see how that works there?

Javelin
12-17-2011, 19:24
And I am not telling people to pretend to be dumb or stupid - but the bottom line is the cops are going to start their line of questioning and that is where I am not going to begin with my line of answering until I have a Lawyer present. Does not matter - period. Pull me in front of a Jury - it's not like any additional charges are going to be posted for requesting your rights afforded to you by the Constitution of the United States.

:rofl:

ray9898
12-17-2011, 21:28
Bottom line.....LE helps 'defend' more innocent people daily than any criminal defense attorney. A good investigation which uncovers the truth and stops the process from starting is the the best defense. I know I have prevented many people from being indicted by a thorough investigation that proved their claim 100% or shot holes and doubt into the 'victims' claims.

Markasaurus
12-17-2011, 21:38
I don't agree with this at all. If you are talking to the Law you need a Lawyer. I would not care about the criminal case so much as the civil that will inevitably follow even in the best of case self defense.

So - Lawyer or else pay the price later with all of your hard earned cash pulling back word play that their legal team will do everything and anything they can to extort money from your wallet in court.

I live in the PRK California. The correct response. No sensible man wants to shoot anyone but we know it could happen (which is exactly why, it does not happen more often - i knew a hispanic fellow in LA in 1997 who was the victim of a armed home robbery. They just gave up the goods and no one got hurt.)

Even so, if someone breaks down my door, does not identify themselves as "POLICE" and puts two feet in my house, i am going to shoot at them. If i win this one, i am going to call 911, put the weapon at least 10 feet away and my wallet next to my hand. Then lay on the ground when i see the flashing lights and SCREAM when asked.

actionshooter10
12-19-2011, 02:02
I'm not an expert on this, but I agree with Sam about giving a brief verbal statement.

That said, once you give a that statement, shut up.

All of the research I've seen from reputable sources show that your memory immediately after a shooting is sub-par.

Example (http://www.forcescience.org/fsinews/2010/08/force-science-news-156-rest-and-memory-new-findings-support-delaying-interviews-after-an-ois-k-9-scenarios-make-their-training-simulator-debut/)

It has been shown that the investigation following an OIS is often adversarial.

This can be mitigated by department policies that give the officer time to process and deal with what has happened. Unfortunately, not all departments have researched and developed policies to deal with this situation.

Having an attorney that has represented officers involvied in an OIS sitting beside you could be beneficial.

JMO.

Misty02
12-19-2011, 06:14
Not much to be added to what has already been stated. If youíre more of a visual/audio person here is a video from Massad Ayoob explaining the importance of providing basic information, pointing out evidence and witness, among other recommendations: http://www.gunsandammo.com/2011/05/26/video-after-a-real-shooting/ (http://www.gunsandammo.com/2011/05/26/video-after-a-real-shooting/)

The only thing I can add is to select your defense counsel prior to the event, make sure their value system matches yours (make sure they are not just criminal lawyers but that they have experience defending this type of case). Several years ago I decided to interview a few self-defense lawyers to make my selection. Among my questions was what they asked of their clients do after a shooting. I thanked those that told me to say absolutely nothing to the police and call them and crossed them off the list. I didnít know much then (still donít) but I knew that was not what was best for me. I wanted a lawyer who had my best interest in mind and wanted me to have the strongest case possible. The more evidence and witnesses in your favor, the stronger your case. If you wait too long, most of it will disappear never to be found again. Itís my job to make sure I help myself, that means facilitating the job of the investigators and being open and candid with my lawyer. Itís my life and my familyís financial (mental and emotional) future at stake.

I carry with me the card given to me by my selected defense counsel (number on speed dial at home and cell). In the back is all the information he recommends I provide (which is about the same as Samís post and Ayoobís video).

Iím prepared (at least mentally) for several things, among them: being taken to the station for questioning, being arrested, being taken to the ground if I happen to freeze, canít comprehend or follow instructions and just stand there with a firearm in hand (hopefully, that will not happen as I have been conditioning my mind for years to avoid it)Ö. The list goes on. If youíre prepared and acknowledge the worst but wish for the best, fewer things should take you by surprise. If you react negatively to what is taking place because you didnít expect it, it just makes things worse. If you are going to be arrested, cooperate, donít resist. If you do, you only increase the possibility of being injured in the process. I will not put my hands behind my head once I see an officer arrive, Iím not a criminal and wonít act like one (hands should be in plain view though); however, if instructed to do so, I will.

Remember that 911 calls are recorded. It makes no difference if you say and do all the right thing when the police arrives if you already had diarrhea of the mouth while on the 911 call. Train your mind to repeat "I'm shaken up!" if you are the type of person that feels the need to fill silence with talking.

The ones I refuse to talk to, give any comment to and instructed my family to not even look in their direction is the media.


.

eracer
12-19-2011, 06:47
So in the adrenalin-fueled, nerve-racking, mind-jarring aftermath of a self-defense shooting it's a good idea to say things that I myself might be uncertain of, to a law-enforcement officer who may or may not recall your statements correctly to a DA?

Thanks, but I'll just continue preparing my mind to say the bare minimum: Name, life was in danger, defended self, all due respect, lawyer.

Misty02
12-19-2011, 07:02
This doesnít necessarily have to do with the shooting itself; however, Iíve learned a few things from following self-defense cases. Some Iíve learned from the same people in this thread that have provided you with what I consider to be sound and valuable advice.

Many of us donít have a clue what weíll go through if we are forced to take a life or how we will react thereafter. Prepare yourself as best as possible for the emotional and mental aspects of it. Think of the very worst that could happen and prepare for that, hopefully that will allow for lesser things to be more manageable.

You may not know who the criminal was, his background (criminal or otherwise) or who he has ties with. I donít have a facebook or other similar site so that part is for the benefit of others:

1. Before the conflict, donít post identifying pictures or comments that reveal your childís school, extracurricular activities or known landmarks that are close to places you frequent, the same for you and your spouse.
2. After the conflict, delete you facebook or other networking site that contains any personal information or information about people you know.
3. Stay away from the media.
4. Increase vigilance and insist the rest of the family does the same.
5. Have your family keep you informed of things/people that seem out of place.
6. Discuss and implement appropriate cautionary measures with the family and close friends that may be affected.
7. Good neighbors will be a greater asset than ever, extra eyes wonít hurt. Ask them to let you know of any vehicles or people that donít seem to belong.
8. Do google and other available searches to see what the attacker/ accomplices are discussing on line.
9. If there are threats, evaluate the credibility (that may be harder than it sounds)
10. Report all threats to the police (whether credible or not), establish the paper trail.
11. If the threat is credible, alert the school so extra precautions are taken with your child.
12. If you post about it online, do not use your name or theirs, this reduces their ability to do searches (on your name to see what you or others are saying on their name to see what others are saying about him).
13. Lather, rinse and repeat, if there is a trial it all starts all over again, at sentencing, at parole hearings, at release.
14. If they died, be sure to know when their birthday is (youíll know the date of death). Those are days to be a little extra vigilant.


Best of luck! I hope you never need any of this.

Misty02
12-19-2011, 07:26
So in the adrenalin-fueled, nerve-racking, mind-jarring aftermath of a self-defense shooting it's a good idea to say things that I myself might be uncertain of, to a law-enforcement officer who may or may not recall your statements correctly to a DA?

Thanks, but I'll just continue preparing my mind to say the bare minimum: Name, life was in danger, defended self, all due respect, lawyer.

I would personally avoid details other than identifying the attacker(s), possible witnesses and the area where I believe it started (if somehow we ended elsewhere) so that all evidence available can be collected. That really isn’t that much information some of it can be done with a couple of words and pointing.

Specifics as to how many shots I might have fired, opinions, thoughts, guessing at motive, etc I would not include (and I’m still training my mind to avoid them). If someone demands money or jewelry, I may be able to state they tried to rob me. Absent that I’ll stick with the “I was attacked”. I am not guessing as to why.

We each know the dangers/benefits of what we have planned to do. I would not attempt to convince others to deviate from their plan as I’m not paying anyone’s legal bills or serving their sentence.

By disclosing our opinion/plan to others new to shooting and explaining the reasons behind them we give them an opportunity to make their own choices based on which course of action they feel more comfortable with. Other comments in threads like this often expose the possible consequences of going either route.

Whichever way a person elects to go it is important that they mentally prepare and practice their plan. The worst thing that can possibly happen to someone whose plan was to say absolutely nothing and call their lawyer is to find themselves at the scene unprepared and unable to stop talking if they haven’t trained their mind as to which things to avoid saying.
.

merlynusn
12-19-2011, 10:51
If you honestly think that after shooting someone, you will be able to walk up to a witness and get their information you are naive. First off, they won't stand still and talk to you, let alone give you their information. You just shot someone. They will most likely avoid you like the plague.

If you have a lawyer on retainer (99% of people don't), then go ahead and call him after you call 911. I don't mind if he is going to come down to the station and we can question you then. What if your lawyer is on vacation? What if he doesn't answer his phone? But if all the information I have is that you shot someone and you refuse to talk and I have 10 other witnesses who saw you shoot, but not why, then yes, you will probably be charged.

If I have 10 witnesses who saw the guy come up and try to rob you and you shoot him, I'm still going to want to hear from you why you shot. If you continue to refuse to answer questions, you won't be going home. And if you aren't under arrest, you have NO right to an attorney. If you are there voluntarily, you won't even be read your Miranda Rights, because they don't apply.

As Sam and others have said, a quick, brief description of "I was attacked by the guy wearing this, he said this, demanded that, was armed/unarmed. These people witnessed it. There are other suspects, they look like this and ran that way." If that is all you give on scene, that's good. Call your lawyer and have them meet at the station. But if you are on scene and absolutely refuse to answer any questions, it makes you look guilty. All the police are going to know is there is a body on the ground and you standing over it.

And if it comes out that you are talking or trying to talk to witnesses and refuse to talk to police, again, it makes you look guilty. Sam provided some great advise. Give a very simple statement and say you want your lawyer present when you give your detailed statement at the station.

ETA: You keep mentioning the goal is to win in a jury trial. You are wrong. The goal is to AVOID a trial and a true bill at all. The goal is to have the police rule it a justified shooting and you go home in a couple of hours. If they do take it to trial, then obviously the goal is to win. That's why if you can afford to have a lawyer on retainer and have him respond that is the best case scenario. But to refuse to say anything, especially if it'll go into another day (lawyer can't get there that night), is the dumbest thing you can do.

txleapd
12-19-2011, 11:19
As someone who has investigated numerous shootings, including self defense shootings involving other cops and private citizens, and having been involved in an OIS myself, I can confidently say that victims and suspects act differently.

I can only think of one instance in which the person who did a completely justified shooting got indicted, and ended up having to go through the criminal court process (the indictment ended up getting thrown out as faulty). That one case was a cop. I've seen plenty of "self defense" shootings, that I thought were probably a little iffy, and they never got true billed (indicted).

On a side note, I've also seen my share of lawyers screw their clients, by offering them bad advice. Just because someone has the paper, does not mean they're competent. If someone wants to let a C student, who barely scrapped through a community college law school, decide their fate, more power to them. Make common sense decisions, and have a good attorney on retainer.

Lastly, people who have no experience investigating shootings, and/or going through the process, should stay in their lane. They don't need to be offering advice on things they know nothing about, or arguing with those who know.

3000fps
12-19-2011, 11:47
What is the general consensus on this video? Helpful?

http://youtu.be/Ycrh8g3hPR4

Sgt127
12-19-2011, 12:53
What is the general consensus on this video? Helpful?

http://youtu.be/Ycrh8g3hPR4

The last scenario is pretty much exactly what everyone here, who has actually dealt with situations like this in the real world, has suggested someone do.

Misty02
12-19-2011, 13:01
What is the general consensus on this video? Helpful?

http://youtu.be/Ycrh8g3hPR4

Thank you for sharing this video, 3000 fps.

My personal thoughts (and this isnít advice) is that the video you posted addresses some of the issues Iím very concerned with. That I will lose focus and somehow not be able to tune in, hear, understand and follow the instructions of arriving officers. I continuously tell myself that I must focus, not have a weapon in my hand and follow their instructions.

Listen to how many times that officer had to repeat the same thing. Most people donít consider a plan of action for the aftermath to include an officer arriving at the scene while things are still happening, most assume theyíll be calling 911 after the fact and that call being the one to get a response.

Much like I repeat things at night, before going to sleep, of things I must do the next morning, I hope that continuous repetition works the same way.

Iím not very talkative in a crisis or during high stress situations, so I donít believe Iíll be mouthing off; but loosing focus and not following instructions could be just as deadly.

.

Misty02
12-19-2011, 13:22
I have a question: Based on the scenario 3000fps posted, what if the other person in the room is the criminalís accomplice and he/she is also armed. I would want to follow the officerís instructions but in doing so I become vulnerable to the other criminal (who could decide to shoot the officer at that point). I would be behind the 8 ball at that point, unarmed and possibly on the ground.

Is there a way to improve those odds?

.

Hour13
12-19-2011, 13:36
Alot of really helpful info here, thanks guys.

Hack
12-19-2011, 14:05
I have a question: Based on the scenario 3000fps posted, what if the other person in the room is the criminalís accomplice and he/she is also armed. I would want to follow the officerís instructions but in doing so I become vulnerable to the other criminal (who could decide to shoot the officer at that point). I would be behind the 8 ball at that point, unarmed and possibly on the ground.

Is there a way to improve those odds?

.

When told to drop it by someone in uniform, drop it. If the cop does get picked off, (which would be bad), then do what you perceive you have to do to stop the situation from escalating any further to protect those nearby; would be what I would do. I would then reach for the officer's radio, provided that everything is under control and the miscreant has been disabled; and radio for help, if the officer is totally disabled and not able to communicate. If the officer is alive I would render necessary aid, with no weapon in hand if possible to do it that way, as I am not trying to get myself shot. There is no perfect situation. There is near perfect, somewhat normal, and SNAFU.

OXCOPS
12-19-2011, 15:43
Thank you for sharing this video, 3000 fps.

My personal thoughts (and this isn’t advice) is that the video you posted addresses some of the issues I’m very concerned with. That I will lose focus and somehow not be able to tune in, hear, understand and follow the instructions of arriving officers. I continuously tell myself that I must focus, not have a weapon in my hand and follow their instructions.

Listen to how many times that officer had to repeat the same thing. Most people don’t consider a plan of action for the aftermath to include an officer arriving at the scene while things are still happening, most assume they’ll be calling 911 after the fact and that call being the one to get a response.

Much like I repeat things at night, before going to sleep, of things I must do the next morning, I hope that continuous repetition works the same way.

I’m not very talkative in a crisis or during high stress situations, so I don’t believe I’ll be mouthing off; but loosing focus and not following instructions could be just as deadly.

.

I have a question: Based on the scenario 3000fps posted, what if the other person in the room is the criminal’s accomplice and he/she is also armed. I would want to follow the officer’s instructions but in doing so I become vulnerable to the other criminal (who could decide to shoot the officer at that point). I would be behind the 8 ball at that point, unarmed and possibly on the ground.

Is there a way to improve those odds?

.


As long as you don't have a weapon in your hand when LE arrives, you run a slim chance of getting shot yourself. Officers are used to yelling commands to people numerous times before some comply. It happens. Suppose you reholster and just freeze up, which causes you to not comply with verbal orders. You aren't an immediate lethal threat, so you probably won't get shot. You might be tackled. That sucks, but you live. You might meet the Taser. You ride the lightening. That REALLY sucks, but you live.

My thoughts on the second person being another suspect is this. Keep your distance from EVERYONE if possible. Make your same brief statements declaring you feared for your life, etc. If the guy really is friends with the dead guy, you'll know pretty quick. Most friends won't stand idly by while you shoot their buddy.

If the bystander is innocent, when the cops show up and order everyone on the ground (which is very likely to happen), you need to have a race with that person to see who can get lower faster.

Misty02
12-19-2011, 17:13
Thank you both, Hack and OXCOPS! I had not given a thought to a scenario with the officer arriving in the midst of it all and the probability of an armed accomplice still be standing at his arrival. Itís odd, I had ran through my mind even scenarios where I was seriously injured by the time officers got there, but not the former.

.

eracer
12-19-2011, 17:56
As someone who has investigated numerous shootings, including self defense shootings involving other cops and private citizens, and having been involved in an OIS myself, I can confidently say that victims and suspects act differently.

I can only think of one instance in which the person who did a completely justified shooting got indicted, and ended up having to go through the criminal court process (the indictment ended up getting thrown out as faulty). That one case was a cop. I've seen plenty of "self defense" shootings, that I thought were probably a little iffy, and they never got true billed (indicted).

On a side note, I've also seen my share of lawyers screw their clients, by offering them bad advice. Just because someone has the paper, does not mean they're competent. If someone wants to let a C student, who barely scrapped through a community college law school, decide their fate, more power to them. Make common sense decisions, and have a good attorney on retainer.

Lastly, people who have no experience investigating shootings, and/or going through the process, should stay in their lane. They don't need to be offering advice on things they know nothing about, or arguing with those who know.Is it OK with you if I pose a question in the form of an opinion?

OXCOPS
12-19-2011, 19:25
Is it OK with you if I pose a question in the form of an opinion?

You'll never make it on Jeopardy if you do.

RussP
12-19-2011, 20:49
RussP - we are playing symantics of what-if games. What if- What-it What-if. Where is there a "what-if game" in any of my posts? Feel free to quote those posts.What if you let shots ring out in a crowded building vs. your private residence (like right now). Witnesses are going to say whatever they are going to say RussP and you know that. It is the way it is and nothing you say is going to change that.Where did you get the idea I believe differently? Feel free to quote those posts.Bottom line is the less I say the better off I am going to be. The prosecution has to make the case against me - with full burden of proof. You see how that works there?Do I see how it works? Yes, as a matter of fact, I do understand, intimately.

See, my best friend went through this exact experience this past summer. After he called his attorney, he called me. We went through the whole thing together.

We had discussed this possibility many years before and decided we would do exactly what I, Sam, the other cops in this thread, and Misty02 are saying.

He identified himself as the victim, identified the witness, briefly explained why he shot the guy, told the officers he would make a formal statement the next morning when his attorney would accompany him to the police station. And, that is what happened.

No charges were filed.

Now, my friend, he's a very, very disciplined man. He has control, but only because he has practiced and rehearsed many, many scenarios hundreds of times. Yet, that night, the adrenalin dump surprised him. He got it under control quickly, but that again was from practice.

His attorney is good, but it seemed to my friend that he was not asking the right questions. I gave him questions for the attorney. The questions worked and things went smoother. Where'd I get the questions? Talking to cops, a noted expert witness, and posts by cops here on Glock Talk.

So, yes, I know how it works, Javelin.

You made these comments. First you acknowledged your limitations.No way I would have cognitive functions immediateley following a shoot - no way. And for that matter I can say ultimately that I would not want to be prosecuted over facts & statements given at that time and place due to the fog of such a traumatic event.

EDIT: I don't really care what people say or do after a defense shooting - I know my limitations and I guess folks just need to know theirs. Audie Murphy could probably give a explanation after a shoot but that does not mean all of us can.Then you said you would have the ability to interview witnesses on your own.As far as getting witness names & information (if there even are any) is something that I would personally do. Yes.I said before, the two do not agree.

I believe merlynusn responded well.If you honestly think that after shooting someone, you will be able to walk up to a witness and get their information you are naive. First off, they won't stand still and talk to you, let alone give you their information. You just shot someone. They will most likely avoid you like the plague.

[snip]

And if it comes out that you are talking or trying to talk to witnesses and refuse to talk to police, again, it makes you look guilty. Sam provided some great advise. Give a very simple statement and say you want your lawyer present when you give your detailed statement at the station.He added a very important point. The bold emphasis is mine.ETA: You keep mentioning the goal is to win in a jury trial. You are wrong. The goal is to AVOID a trial and a true bill at all. The goal is to have the police rule it a justified shooting and you go home in a couple of hours. If they do take it to trial, then obviously the goal is to win. That's why if you can afford to have a lawyer on retainer and have him respond that is the best case scenario. But to refuse to say anything, especially if it'll go into another day (lawyer can't get there that night), is the dumbest thing you can do.The part in bold, that's how it worked for my friend.

eaglefrq
12-19-2011, 21:29
His attorney is good, but it seemed to my friend that he was not asking the right questions. I gave him questions for the attorney. The questions worked and things went smoother. Where'd I get the questions? Talking to cops, a noted expert witness, and posts by cops here on Glock Talk.

What questions do you recommend? I have talked with an attorney over the phone and have his information, but have not had the chance to talk with him yet about scenarios, questions, etc...

RussP
12-19-2011, 21:40
What questions do you recommend? I have talked with an attorney over the phone and have his information, but have not had the chance to talk with him yet about scenarios, questions, etc...They were questions specific to my friends active situation and were meant to focus and motivate people to make decisions and act on those decisions.

You should be able to adapt the questions and comments already in this thread to your unique needs.

RussP
12-19-2011, 22:15
As fortune would have it, the March 2012 Combat Handguns magazine's Self-Defense The Law written by GT Member Massad Ayoob is titled "Building an Impenetrable Defense". It's all about what we're discussing here.On Page 93, the article continues with "Say Nothing?" specifically addressing this topic.

The article is about the work of Armed Citizens' Legal Defense Network, Inc. http://armedcitizensnetwork.org/home

There is very good information on the site, especially in the "Our Journal" area. http://armedcitizensnetwork.org/our-journal

One entry in this month's journal is Unintended Consequences of Silence (http://armedcitizensnetwork.org/unintended-consequences-of-silence) based on an interview with Mas Ayoob. In the article you'll read Ayoob's 5-Point Checklist.

Tell responding officers ďIím the victim; he is the perpetrator.Ē
Tell responding officers, ďI will sign a complaint.Ē
Point out pertinent evidence.
Point out any witnesses who saw what happened.
If there is any hint that you are a suspect, say ďOfficer, you will have my full cooperation after I have counsel here.Ē
Another entry in the December Journal is You Have the Right to Remain Silent (http://armedcitizensnetwork.org/you-have-the-right-to-remain-silent) by Marty Hayes, J.D. where he discusses "Actions of an Innocent Person" and "Know When to Stop Talking".

There are many more informative topics at the ACLDN website. Do yourself a favor and spend some time there.

Also, go buy the March issue of Combat Handguns.

slama683
12-20-2011, 01:00
That's a lot of questioning RussP - I know this is a LEO forum but. Bottom line is that LEO are paid by the miniciples to collect evidence and Sam telling folks that innocent people do not invoke their rights is BS and everyone should know it. You put a lawyer on retainer and the first thing he will tell you is to not say anything until you talk to him. Why? Because it will make his job infinitely harder when you open your trap. Japanese proverb - The mouth is often the source of misfortune.

The more you say the more expensive it is going to be for you in civil court as everything is being recorded either by electronic means or being written down (correct or not correct). Having a lawyer communicate everything takes care of any misscommunication in the matter and will not cost you an arm and an leg firghting the slew of litigation that is sure to follow.

My firefights, raids, and street-street fighting were done in Iraq. I was an Infantry Captain but had to leave due to my combat injuries.

Or, it could be because he can't bill against the paid retainer until he provides billable services.

Civil court costs from possible lawsuits are another problem. Keeping out of jail is quite another.

SKSman57
12-20-2011, 01:07
Another example of why attempting to communicate with supporters of Wrong Paul is a fruitless and pointless effort.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4I4QO3ck_1o&

Misty02
12-20-2011, 06:13
Thank you for sharing these articles, Russ. The Armed Citizensí Interactions with Law Enforcement was a tad long but informative. Unintended Consequences of Silence was good as well. Most touched on things we know (or should know) but all good refreshers. The more I read articles like those and watch videos as the one posted by 3000fps the greater the possibility it all sets firm in my subconscious to retrieve when my conscious thoughts are not in prime working order and clear.

Things rarely work exactly as we plan but the odds of them working as we wish are substantially lower if we donít have at least a base plan to draw from.

As fortune would have it, the March 2012 Combat Handguns magazine's Self-Defense The Law written by GT Member Massad Ayoob is titled "Building an Impenetrable Defense". It's all about what we're discussing here.On Page 93, the article continues with "Say Nothing?" specifically addressing this topic.

The article is about the work of Armed Citizens' Legal Defense Network, Inc. http://armedcitizensnetwork.org/home

There is very good information on the site, especially in the "Our Journal" area. http://armedcitizensnetwork.org/our-journal


One entry in this month's journal is Unintended Consequences of Silence (http://armedcitizensnetwork.org/unintended-consequences-of-silence) based on an interview with Mas Ayoob. In the article you'll read Ayoob's 5-Point Checklist.
Tell responding officers ďIím the victim; he is the perpetrator.Ē
Tell responding officers, ďI will sign a complaint.Ē
Point out pertinent evidence.
Point out any witnesses who saw what happened.
If there is any hint that you are a suspect, say ďOfficer, you will have my full cooperation after I have counsel here.Ē
Another entry in the December Journal is You Have the Right to Remain Silent (http://armedcitizensnetwork.org/you-have-the-right-to-remain-silent) by Marty Hayes, J.D. where he discusses "Actions of an Innocent Person" and "Know When to Stop Talking".

There are many more informative topics at the ACLDN website. Do yourself a favor and spend some time there.

Also, go buy the March issue of Combat Handguns.

txleapd
12-20-2011, 06:54
Is it OK with you if I pose a question in the form of an opinion?

It's a free country. You can do as you like. Cop Talk has always been open for people (not just cops) to discuss law enforcement related topics. Opinions are obviously included in those discussions. Questions, comments, and opinions differ from advice, which should only be offered by qualified people. I don't tell a surgeon where to make his cut, or a plumber on how to attach his fittings, because I'm not qualified. I might ask questions about the outcomes, but I really can't offer advice on how to do their jobs.

My issue is with people (or person, specifically in this case), who don't know what they don't know, but somehow feel qualified to contradict people who have been there and done that. There are a few hundred years of training and experience on this board. People who have not only worked it, but lived it.

Those of us who participate in discussions on this board do so, because it's not just a job to us. We like to bounce things off each other, and interact with people who have questions, or other points of view (e.g. opinions). That shouldn't be confused with wanting, or needing, to listen to advice offered by the unqualified.

I hope I was clear in explaining the difference.

eaglefrq
12-20-2011, 07:17
As fortune would have it, the March 2012 Combat Handguns magazine's Self-Defense The Law written by GT Member Massad Ayoob is titled "Building an Impenetrable Defense". It's all about what we're discussing here.On Page 93, the article continues with "Say Nothing?" specifically addressing this topic.

The article is about the work of Armed Citizens' Legal Defense Network, Inc. http://armedcitizensnetwork.org/home

There is very good information on the site, especially in the "Our Journal" area. http://armedcitizensnetwork.org/our-journal

One entry in this month's journal is Unintended Consequences of Silence (http://armedcitizensnetwork.org/unintended-consequences-of-silence) based on an interview with Mas Ayoob. In the article you'll read Ayoob's 5-Point Checklist.

Tell responding officers ďIím the victim; he is the perpetrator.Ē
Tell responding officers, ďI will sign a complaint.Ē
Point out pertinent evidence.
Point out any witnesses who saw what happened.
If there is any hint that you are a suspect, say ďOfficer, you will have my full cooperation after I have counsel here.Ē

Another entry in the December Journal is You Have the Right to Remain Silent (http://armedcitizensnetwork.org/you-have-the-right-to-remain-silent) by Marty Hayes, J.D. where he discusses "Actions of an Innocent Person" and "Know When to Stop Talking".

There are many more informative topics at the ACLDN website. Do yourself a favor and spend some time there.

Also, go buy the March issue of Combat Handguns.

Russ - Thanks for all the information.

Misty02
12-20-2011, 07:18
It's a free country. You can do as you like. Cop Talk has always been open for people (not just cops) to discuss law enforcement related topics. Opinions are obviously included in those discussions. Questions, comments, and opinions differ from advice, which should only be offered by qualified people. I don't tell a surgeon where to make his cut, or a plumber on how to attach his fittings, because I'm not qualified. I might ask questions about the outcomes, but I really can't offer advice on how to do their jobs.

My issue is with people (or person, specifically in this case), who don't know what they don't know, but somehow feel qualified to contradict people who have been there and done that. There are a few hundred years of training and experience on this board. People who have not only worked it, but lived it.

Those of us who participate in discussions on this board do so, because it's not just a job to us. We like to bounce things off each other, and interact with people who have questions, or other points of view (e.g. opinions). That shouldn't be confused with wanting, or needing, to listen to advice offered by the unqualified.

I hope I was clear in explaining the difference.

Very! From my part, thank you! :) I still have much to learn; actually, I donít believe Iíll ever know enough. Sadly, the more I do and the more I research the more I realize Iíve barely scraped the top of the iceberg.

.

txleapd
12-20-2011, 07:55
Or, it could be because he can't bill against the paid retainer until he provides billable services.

Civil court costs from possible lawsuits are another problem. Keeping out of jail is quite another.

Any shooting but be survived on at least 4 levels. In order of importance (in my humble opinion) they are:

1. Physically
2. Criminally
3. Emotionally
4. Financially

As a cop, we also have to survive administratively, or professionally (which could also be included in financially). I can also see a prudent argument for swapping my #2 and #3.

I truly believe that once I physically survive a shooting, my next priority is staying out of jail. That comes way before worrying about getting sued in civil court (or even keeping my job). Besides, if I can't stay out of jail, I probably won't care about anything below that (which will likely be lost any way).

Priorities.

Misty02
12-20-2011, 08:06
What questions do you recommend? I have talked with an attorney over the phone and have his information, but have not had the chance to talk with him yet about scenarios, questions, etc...

It is not that easy to have lawyers answer questions about scenarios, eaglefrq (for possible outcomes, at least). Youíll find out once you do most of the answers are very limited and general in nature unless they know all the variables. I attempted that once and found myself answering a zillion (exaggeration on my part) questions to give him a better picture and get a short sentence response which he later elaborated on. It was an informative conversation, but I was dizzy by the end of it. After all that you get a closing comment like "but a jury may make an entirely different decision", which I knew was true but nonetheless frustrating.

I would ask anyway if I were you, even limited answers provide valuable information. Heck, even the questions theyíll ask you (to get a better picture) add clarity to the world of self-defense. English isnít my first language, I found out quickly how important the ability to communicate clearly was. More than a couple of times he repeated what he believed my statement/question was in his own words questioning if that was what I meant. When I stated it was, he showed me how it was not exactly what I said and how my original comment could have been interpreted differently. Interesting experience, to say the least.

Iíve since changed attorneys, not because that one was not good, just because I believe I found one slightly better and more specialized.

Our selected lawyer has newsletters with either actual cases or single discussion items. He focuses in firearmís law, self-defense and use of force law so his articles are always of interest (even when they donít apply to us). I also read through Gutmacherís blog (another FL self-defense attorney) ever so often, there he answers emails heís received with specific questions.

Good luck in your quest! :wavey:

Misty02
12-20-2011, 08:11
Any shooting but be survived on at least 4 levels. In order of importance (in my humble opinion) they are:

1. Physically
2. Criminally
3. Emotionally
4. Financially

As a cop, we also have to survive administratively, or professionally (which could also be included in financially). I can also see a prudent argument for swapping my #2 and #3.

I truly believe that once I physically survive a shooting, my next priority is staying out of jail. That comes way before worrying about getting sued in civil court (or even keeping my job). Besides, if I can't stay out of jail, I probably won't care about anything below that (which will likely be lost any way).

Priorities.

Simple, logical and clear. I know Iíll be quoting this in the not so distant future.

.

Misty02
12-20-2011, 09:04
Oh, I forgot to state something our lawyer told me about the difference between a criminal attorney and one that specializes in self-defense cases (paraphrasing) which may be helpful to others in the process of selecting one. Criminal attorneys are used to dealing with criminals, if their client opens their mouth it will indeed make things more difficult for them. What the police uncover as far as evidence, witnesses and the like will hurt their clientís case.

Self-defense attorneys work with innocent people that were forced to make one of the most difficult decisions a person would have to make, their job is to make sure their clients donít get prosecuted for a crime they didnít commit. To that end they want their client to provide basic information at the scene so that investigators do the work for them to obtain evidence and witnesses that would exonerate their client.

My conclusion from some of the comments: they are going to get billable hours for reviewing the evidence collected, testimony from witnesses, etc. (whether collected by the police or the investigator he had us pay for). The object for most attorneys is to win. They get show how many self-defense cases theyíve won, thus being selected by more people in need of their services and recommendations from current and past clients.

.

RussP
12-20-2011, 09:12
Oh, I forgot to state something our lawyer told me about the difference between a criminal attorney and one that specializes in self-defense cases (paraphrasing) which may be helpful to others in the process of selecting one. Criminal attorneys are used to dealing with criminals, if their client opens their mouth it will indeed make things more difficult for them. What the police uncover as far as evidence, witnesses and the like will hurt their clientís case.

Self-defense attorneys work with innocent people that were forced to make one of the most difficult decisions a person would have to make, their job is to make sure their clients donít get prosecuted for a crime they didnít commit. To that end they want their client to provide basic information at the scene so that investigators do the work for them to obtain evidence and witnesses that would exonerate their client.

.Excellent observation and very useful.

dlrow
12-21-2011, 22:26
With all due respect to all, I submit the following video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=08fZQWjDVKE

I'd be interested on what the highly opinionated say about this.

Misty02
12-22-2011, 05:55
With all due respect to all, I submit the following video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=08fZQWjDVKE

I'd be interested on what the highly opinionated say about this.

Iíve seen this a few times, just as many times as Iíve seen part 1which is by the defense attorney. Neither of them addresses the issues of what happens when the witnesses and evidence disappear from the scene because the investigators were not alerted to them. Additionally, the information that has been suggested we should provide is minimal and to preserve/identify the two mentioned above with an added simple statement of ďHe attacked meĒ and I wish to press charges.

Do you have a more defined question? Iím neither a police officer or an attorney though, I can only provide an answer as a regular armed citizen that wishes never to be found in that situation but Iím doing my best to be prepared in case the unthinkable happens.

.

Sam Spade
12-22-2011, 06:44
With all due respect to all, I submit the following video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=08fZQWjDVKE

I'd be interested on what the highly opinionated say about this.

For efficiency, start by looking at the multitude of threads---there are at least 10 here and over at CI--where the highly opinionated already spoke on this. "Don't talk to the police" "Never talk to the police" and similar are the labels that should get you underway. Or, if you have a more narrow question, maybe we could focus there.

merlynusn
12-22-2011, 09:21
With all due respect to all, I submit the following video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=08fZQWjDVKE

I'd be interested on what the highly opinionated say about this.

I'll look at the video later and comment then. I started too, but don't have 20 minutes right now to do it.

But I highly doubt it'll change my comments in relation to this thread.

dlrow
12-22-2011, 13:08
[QUOTE=merlynusn;18321994]I'll look at the video later and comment then. I started too, but don't have 20 minutes right now to do it.

But I highly doubt it'll change my comments in relation to this thread.[/]

No doubt you won't change your mind.

Not sure how you come to this conclusion "And if you aren't under arrest, you have NO right to an attorney."

You always have a right to an attorney. You as a Leo just don't have a requirement to mirandize unless the person is in custody and being questioned.

Sam Spade
12-22-2011, 14:36
Not sure how you come to this conclusion "And if you aren't under arrest, you have NO right to an attorney."

You always have a right to an attorney. You as a Leo just don't have a requirement to mirandize unless the person is in custody and being questioned.


"Always"? No, not always. Not during Grand Jury testimony. Not during criminal/civil procedure when there is no potential loss of liberty. Not roadside when you're a witness. Not when there are exigencies at the scene of a crime or issue of public safety. Not "always" by a long shot.

OXCOPS
12-22-2011, 14:41
"Always"? No, not always. Not during Grand Jury testimony. Not during criminal/civil procedure when there is no potential loss of liberty. Not roadside when you're a witness. Not when there are exigencies at the scene of a crime or issue of public safety. Not "always" by a long shot.

This is neither the time, nor the place, for logic!! :fist:

dlrow
12-22-2011, 15:08
"Always"? No, not always. Not during Grand Jury testimony. Not during criminal/civil procedure when there is no potential loss of liberty. Not roadside when you're a witness. Not when there are exigencies at the scene of a crime or issue of public safety. Not "always" by a long shot.

Haha, there are exceptions looks like you stayed awake during at least one class. No your attorney can't be in the room at the gj. But you can stop to consult with one. (at least with a federal gj )

I'm not sure about your other examples. Maybe, maybe not.

Sounds like you need a hug.

OXCOPS
12-22-2011, 15:32
Haha, there are exceptions looks like you stayed awake during at least one class. No your attorney can't be in the room at the gj. But you can stop to consult with one. (at least with a federal gj )

I'm not sure about your other examples. Maybe, maybe not.

Sounds like you need a hug.

You took offense to THAT post? :shocked: It was clear, concise and to the point with no insults or attitude (unless you read more into it).

Sam Spade
12-22-2011, 15:38
Sounds like you need a hug.


:grouphug:


You took offense to THAT post? :shocked: It was clear, concise and to the point with no insults or attitude (unless you read more into it).

I do believe our new guy is a baby fed. He deserves a warm welcome and all the hospitality we usually extend. :wedgie:



:tongueout:

Misty02
12-22-2011, 20:32
:grouphug:




I do believe our new guy is a baby fed. He deserves a warm welcome and all the hospitality we usually extend. :wedgie:



:tongueout:

:rofl: What a bunch of mushy people the whole lot of you are!

.

merlynusn
12-23-2011, 10:16
No doubt you won't change your mind.

Not sure how you come to this conclusion "And if you aren't under arrest, you have NO right to an attorney."

You always have a right to an attorney. You as a Leo just don't have a requirement to mirandize unless the person is in custody and being questioned.

It's simple, your Miranda Rights don't attach until you are in custody and under interrogation. If you are there voluntarily and you request a lawyer we don't have to stop. You have the right to get up and walk out of the room. I love it when people say something and then go "You didn't read me my rights, this doesn't count." or "You didn't give me my lawyer, this doesn't count." Wrong, you weren't in custody so it counts because your Miranda rights don't attach.

ETA: Now, will most cops stop? Most probably will. But it isn't required. Now if you are in custody and you invoke any of your Miranda Rights, then all questioning ceases and it would be inadmissible if it is in response to a question. But spontaneous utterances are still admissible, even after invocation.

dlrow
12-23-2011, 14:44
It's simple, your Miranda Rights don't attach until you are in custody and under interrogation. If you are there voluntarily and you request a lawyer we don't have to stop. You have the right to get up and walk out of the room. I love it when people say something and then go "You didn't read me my rights, this doesn't count." or "You didn't give me my lawyer, this doesn't count." Wrong, you weren't in custody so it counts because your Miranda rights don't attach.

ETA: Now, will most cops stop? Most probably will. But it isn't required. Now if you are in custody and you invoke any of your Miranda Rights, then all questioning ceases and it would be inadmissible if it is in response to a question. But spontaneous utterances are still admissible, even after invocation.

Wholly agree.

In addition, asking for a lawyer before Miranda doesn't affect what happens after Miranda. ie... "Lawyering up" before it attaches doesn't do anything for the BG if he is subsequently taken into custody and mirandized.

I was in a class where the instructor suggested that: if you arrest someone and don't plan on interviewing them that you don't mirandize them. I don't recall the basis of the suggestion.

merlynusn
12-24-2011, 17:09
Wholly agree.

In addition, asking for a lawyer before Miranda doesn't affect what happens after Miranda. ie... "Lawyering up" before it attaches doesn't do anything for the BG if he is subsequently taken into custody and mirandized.

I was in a class where the instructor suggested that: if you arrest someone and don't plan on interviewing them that you don't mirandize them. I don't recall the basis of the suggestion.

Because real life isn't the movies. Once someone invokes his Miranda Rights, they attach for EVERY LEO until the suspect is released or 14 days has passed. I should say, it depends on the invocation. An invocation of the attorney is what takes time. If it is to silence, then it isn't as long.

So if I make an arrest and Mirandize him and I am just transporting him to jail and he invokes his right to an attorney. If another officer wants to question him, he can't. If he isn't Mirandized, then that officer will still have to read him his Miranda Rights, but it's a lot easier to get through it when you are sitting in a room, not being pissed off in the back of a police car.

I have never arrested someone and Mirandized them just because I'm arresting them. It's a fabrication that has been perpetuated by the movies and TV because it looks cool. Miranda attaches when CUSTODY and INTERROGATION are both present. If I'm not going to do both, then why read someone rights which aren't relevant? That would be like me arresting someone and telling them they have a right to vote.