Which ammo would you carry? [Archive] - Glock Talk

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arushus
12-20-2011, 01:30
Over the past couple months Ive accumulated several different hollowpoint loads, and was just curious as to what everyone would carry if given the same choice...

175gr Winchester Silvertips from factory
180gr Hornady XTP's from factory
165gr JHP's from Underwood
180gr Remington Golden Sabers from Underwood
200gr Hornady XTP's from Underwood

Right now Im carrying the golden sabers, since I feel they are the best choice out of my options...If I had some handloaded speer gold dots or noslers I wouldnt even ask...

inspectorjj
12-20-2011, 01:42
For self defense, I prefer the 135gr. @ 1600 fps. from Underwood, but; I'm sure the 165 JHP's would work great also. For SD, the 180's seem to have too much penetration. Of course, the is just an opinion.
For hunting or in the woods, I think the 200gr. XTP's would be best from Underwood.

Bottom line is that it is hard to beat what Underwood is putting out right now for price and performance. Use the Hornady and the Winchester for target practice on watermelons.

arushus
12-20-2011, 01:49
If underwood would have had the 165gr goldensabers instead of the 180's in stock when I ordered I would have gotten them...

glock20c10mm
12-20-2011, 04:13
For self defense, I prefer the 135gr. @ 1600 fps. from Underwood...
:agree:

21Carrier
12-20-2011, 05:24
I would use the Silvertips. Second choice would be the 180gr XTPs, then the Underwood XTPs. What bullet does the 165gr Underwood load use? I think it's that generic Zero bullet. I've seen them shatter at well under 1400fps. Personally, I think the Silvertip is the best SD bullet design.

rcd567
12-20-2011, 10:32
Underwood's 165 JHPs for me!

arushus
12-20-2011, 10:49
I thought he used winchester hollowpoints...

dryfly
12-20-2011, 10:57
I like XTP's...always have. Still have to try Underwoods....

rcd567
12-20-2011, 12:20
I would use the Silvertips. Second choice would be the 180gr XTPs, then the Underwood XTPs. What bullet does the 165gr Underwood load use? I think it's that generic Zero bullet. I've seen them shatter at well under 1400fps. Personally, I think the Silvertip is the best SD bullet design.

Kevin says they're Winchester but that doesn't mean Zero doesn't supply Winchester or vice versa. And if they shatter going through the bad guy I guess I'd say...even better!

I recently tested some Silvertips and was disappointed in the speed I got. If they were a hundred fps faster I'd be impressed. As it is, not so much.

Maybe Kevin of Underwood Ammo could get some Silvertips, load them up to about 1300 fps. Then they'd be awesome. Since I'm wishing here, maybe in nickel Starline cases...the perfect werewolf load.
http://i80.photobucket.com/albums/j163/rcd567/american-werewolf-in-london-lifesiz.jpg

glock20c10mm
12-20-2011, 13:18
I thought he used winchester hollowpoints...
Not sure about the 165s, but about the 180s Kevin said;
Just changed the 180gr JHPs to Montana Gold.

That was about 10 days ago.

arushus
12-20-2011, 14:33
Why no love for the Golden Sabers? I rather like their design, but I dont believe Ive ever seen a .40 or 10mm version fully expanded.

glock20c10mm
12-20-2011, 14:54
Why no love for the Golden Sabers? I rather like their design, but I dont believe Ive ever seen a .40 or 10mm version fully expanded.
For deer/human sized targets and smaller I like the Golden Sabers a tad better than XTPs. The Golden Sabers expanded just a little more in my backyard testing than XTPs.

Also, I like both the Golden Sabers and XTPs better than 175gr Silvertips because in my backyard testing the 175gr Sivertips didn't always expand, where in the same media the Golden Sabers and XTPs always did.

All in all though my favorite 10mm load for SD that doesn't exist anymore are 155gr Gold Dots @ +1400fps. And since I can't have them now, I go with 135gr Nosler loads.

Can't wait to get into reloading so I can load up what I want to shoot at the velocity I want to shoot it at.

Here's a pic of a 180gr Golden Saber fired from the G20C I used to have that was a Double Tap 10mm load that doesn't exist anymore (don't remember anymore what I fired it into) -

http://i154.photobucket.com/albums/s271/glock20c10mm/Ammo%20Pics/DTGS004-2.jpg

So much for needing a 45 Auto to poke a large diameter hole.

arushus
12-20-2011, 15:13
I fired a 175gr silvertip into some 2-liter bottles of water, it expanded to ~.765", it looks like your golden saber expanded a lil farther than that...Id really like to start loading my own soon also. Im gonna load my own 155gr gold dots..

G29SF
12-20-2011, 15:27
I fired a 175gr silvertip into some 2-liter bottles of water, it expanded to ~.765", it looks like your golden saber expanded a lil farther than that...Id really like to start loading my own soon also. Im gonna load my own 155gr gold dots..

Where do you get your gold dots?

cowboywannabe
12-20-2011, 15:29
well the Hornady and Winchester ammo is not much more than .40cal so whats the point with those? the Underwood ammo is loaded and performs in real life to true 10mm specs.

arushus
12-20-2011, 15:42
well the Hornady and Winchester ammo is not much more than .40cal so whats the point with those? the Underwood ammo is loaded and performs in real life to true 10mm specs.

I just bought them a while back just to try out, thats all...

arushus
12-20-2011, 15:43
Where do you get your gold dots?

I dont, I dont reload yet...but probably midway usa, they have them for $25.49 for 100 bullets

attrapereves
12-20-2011, 15:57
I usually carry factory Golden Sabers in 9mm and 45ACP, but I read where 21Carrier handloaded them and they don't seem to like high velocities. I'm assuming the bullet isn't meant for true 10mm velocities.

The SilverTips seem to be the best bullets out of the list.

G29SF
12-20-2011, 16:00
I dont, I dont reload yet...but probably midway usa, they have them for $25.49 for 100 bullets


OK, thanks. I will take a look. I was under the impression that Speer Gold Dot bullets were no longer available. I must have been confused about something else.

arushus
12-20-2011, 16:12
OK, thanks. I will take a look. I was under the impression that Speer Gold Dot bullets were no longer available. I must have been confused about something else.

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/253271/speer-gold-dot-bullets-40-s-and-w-10mm-auto-400-diameter-155-grain-jacketed-hollow-point-box-of-100

There ya go...

Taterhead
12-20-2011, 16:18
OK, thanks. I will take a look. I was under the impression that Speer Gold Dot bullets were no longer available. I must have been confused about something else.

They are available in 155, 165, 180 weights. They have been pretty scarce the last few years.

blastfact
12-20-2011, 18:47
I would carry any of them. It's all good ammo!

I prefer XTP's. They do seem to expand well. But never the largest expansion! The thing I like about them best is bearing surface area. Thus I THINK this lends to there accuracy. That sharp defined transition edge really gets the job done IMHO as the bullet enters the barrel/lands and grooves. BUT can give some folks slight feeding issues. I also find that they don't seem to be as load sensitive when it comes to accuracy. And I've driven them harder and faster than most with no construction issues. As a reloader they are fantastic for me. And yes I do carry my reloads and I do shoot them a lot when I'm shooting. Shooting a lot has been a issue of late. :(

21Carrier
12-21-2011, 01:56
All I know is that the pictures of the 165gr JHPs on Underwood's website look IDENTICAL to Zero bullets. They blow apart in water at about 1100fps. I'm talking about just finding tiny little pieces, NO CORE LEFT. Even the jacket comes apart. They might not even penetrate to the vitals in a side shot. I'm not joking about that. I don't care if they are made by Winchester or Zero, but that bullet design in the website pictures is not meant for 10mm SD.

About the Golden Sabers, here's what a 165gr Golden Saber does at about 1400fps:

http://i1104.photobucket.com/albums/h329/21Carrier/photo-25.jpg

http://i1104.photobucket.com/albums/h329/21Carrier/photo-24.jpg

165gr Golden Saber wound tract in wax:
http://i1104.photobucket.com/albums/h329/21Carrier/photo-17.jpg

Notice the very thin, icepick-like wound tract after the initial stretch cavity. There was nothing but a ~.400" core of about 60gr left to penetrate to the "vitals". This is not ideal at all.

I just realized that I've never tested a 180gr Golden Saber, just the 165gr. But I would be surprised to see them do much better given how fragile the 165gr GSHP was. However, the slug that Glock20C posted above looks promising. I would like to know at what speed that bullet was fired, and into what type of medium. If it was in the 1200-1300fps range and into water, the 180gr Golden Saber appears much more rugged, and should perform similarly to the Silvertip below.

On the other hand, here's what a factory Silvertip does (factory left, hot reloaded right):

<table style="width:auto;"><tr><td><a href="https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/cauYtMODLmJC55Uu353STdMTjNZETYmyPJy0liipFm0?feat=embedwebsite"><img src="https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-t2LS-AHIKgY/TcYdGkPtOhI/AAAAAAAAANY/M3AghHzBCOs/s800/IMG_1001.jpg" height="598" width="800" /></a></td></tr><tr><td style="font-family:arial,sans-serif; font-size:11px; text-align:right">From <a href="https://picasaweb.google.com/114900770472916837948/HotReloadedSilvertipWaxTest?authuser=0&feat=embedwebsite">Hot Reloaded Silvertip/Wax test</a></td></tr></table>


<table style="width:auto;"><tr><td><a href="https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/NpgijZVKK3Gcs2jgGhvG99MTjNZETYmyPJy0liipFm0?feat=embedwebsite"><img src="https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-t9CWey7em64/TcYdLOPjMGI/AAAAAAAAANc/55rQ9MNj15k/s800/IMG_1002.jpg" height="598" width="800" /></a></td></tr><tr><td style="font-family:arial,sans-serif; font-size:11px; text-align:right">From <a href="https://picasaweb.google.com/114900770472916837948/HotReloadedSilvertipWaxTest?authuser=0&feat=embedwebsite">Hot Reloaded Silvertip/Wax test</a></td></tr></table>


<table style="width:auto;"><tr><td><a href="https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/O2oLbN0X7JI3jNzuDee7fNMTjNZETYmyPJy0liipFm0?feat=embedwebsite"><img src="https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-1L7TllLFeIg/TcYcxcOPWyI/AAAAAAAAANg/QLhbKHAhDZg/s800/IMG_0987.jpg" height="598" width="800" /></a></td></tr><tr><td style="font-family:arial,sans-serif; font-size:11px; text-align:right">From <a href="https://picasaweb.google.com/114900770472916837948/HotReloadedSilvertipWaxTest?authuser=0&feat=embedwebsite">Hot Reloaded Silvertip/Wax test</a></td></tr></table>

In contrast to the Golden Saber above, notice that the Silvertip retained much more mass, and much more diameter. That shows in the wound channel. The Silvertip's wound channel is much wider all the way to the vitals. Penetration, however, stays about the same. This is a pretty ideal wound channel.

By the way, both of these Silvertips were fired from a G29. Given that, factory 175gr Silvertip performance from a G20 should be closer to that of the one on the right (the hotter, reloaded bullet).

21Carrier
12-21-2011, 02:06
Now, here's what a 135gr Nosler JHP at about 1550fps will do:

http://i1104.photobucket.com/albums/h329/21Carrier/IMG_1222.jpg

http://i1104.photobucket.com/albums/h329/21Carrier/IMG_1209.jpg

http://i1104.photobucket.com/albums/h329/21Carrier/IMG_1210.jpg


Remember, by comparing my penetration results to those of factory loads in gelatin from the same gun, I would estimate that penetration in gelatin or tissue should be about 1.5-1.8 times deeper. So, 8" in the wax should be 12-14" in gelatin/tissue. This seems to be supported by the fact that Kegs recently used one of these 135gr Nosler JHPs to successfully take a deer. His achieved full penetration, which should have been in the 12-15" realm.

inspectorjj
12-21-2011, 02:54
Excellent photos and information 21Carrier. You reaffirmed my case for the 135gr. Noslers.

21Carrier
12-21-2011, 03:28
Excellent photos and information 21Carrier. You reaffirmed my case for the 135gr. Noslers.

Thanks. It's nothing definitive, and it's not a human body, but it's the best I can do with what I have. I know lots of people don't believe in testing bullets in things that aren't living, but it's better than just guessing. Unfortunately, the human body (or any living body) is so much different than anything I can make to catch a bullet. I guess what I'm saying is that all of that information (which was just taken from my wax tube thread in the 10mm Reloading Forum) should be taken with a grain of salt. I THINK it's all roughly representative of what would happen, but who really knows. There are no bones to split bullets in two, no clothes to hinder their opening, and no need to worry about things like recoil or flash. Choosing a bullet is so complicated that even with a small selection of potential candidates, I could spend my entire life searching for the best one. At least it's a fun way to spend money and pass the time. As soon as Christmas gets by us, I'll resume the wax tests. I have several bullets I need to test, a few I need to retest at higher velocity, and even more that I still need to buy. I just wish I had as much free time as I used to.

dryfly
12-21-2011, 06:23
Awesome those wax tests are...you could probably write a book 21..."10mm for Dummies"...Thanks for sharing those 21....
I didnt see a test for the 200 gr xtp at 1200fps...did I miss it?

inspectorjj
12-21-2011, 09:06
Thanks. It's nothing definitive, and it's not a human body, but it's the best I can do with what I have. I know lots of people don't believe in testing bullets in things that aren't living, but it's better than just guessing. Unfortunately, the human body (or any living body) is so much different than anything I can make to catch a bullet. I guess what I'm saying is that all of that information (which was just taken from my wax tube thread in the 10mm Reloading Forum) should be taken with a grain of salt. I THINK it's all roughly representative of what would happen, but who really knows. There are no bones to split bullets in two, no clothes to hinder their opening, and no need to worry about things like recoil or flash. Choosing a bullet is so complicated that even with a small selection of potential candidates, I could spend my entire life searching for the best one. At least it's a fun way to spend money and pass the time. As soon as Christmas gets by us, I'll resume the wax tests. I have several bullets I need to test, a few I need to retest at higher velocity, and even more that I still need to buy. I just wish I had as much free time as I used to.

OK...that does it! We cannot have insufficient data. I am getting old so I have just decided to donate my body to 21Carrier for extensive bullet testing upon my demise. Gang, don't get your hopes up too soon. Yes I know I smoke and drink, however I am not that old yet. Just Sayin':faint:

broncobuddha1
12-21-2011, 13:49
Wound tract of the 135s look good but still a lot of jacket separation no?

arushus
12-21-2011, 15:07
Here are the results when I fired swampfox's 135gr nosler @1600fps and factory 175gr silvertips into two liter bottles of water:

http://i1090.photobucket.com/albums/i370/arushus/gun%20stuff/IMG_00000022.jpg

http://i1090.photobucket.com/albums/i370/arushus/gun%20stuff/IMG_00000021.jpg

http://i1090.photobucket.com/albums/i370/arushus/gun%20stuff/IMG_00000020.jpg


http://i1090.photobucket.com/albums/i370/arushus/gun%20stuff/IMG_00000016.jpg


http://i1090.photobucket.com/albums/i370/arushus/gun%20stuff/IMG_00000018.jpg


http://i1090.photobucket.com/albums/i370/arushus/gun%20stuff/IMG_00000017.jpg

21Carrier
12-21-2011, 17:35
Wound tract of the 135s look good but still a lot of jacket separation no?

Not really jacket separation. They definitely shed mass. They do fragment to some extent, but the jacket stays on the bullet. Jacket separation is more clearly illustrated by the 165gr Golden Saber in my first picture. The 135gr Nosler is a pretty tough bullet. I think everyone has this idea that it's fragile, but given that it's going nearly 1600fps, it does VERY well to stay together like it does. Also, both my tests and Kegs's hunting use of that bullet shows that it retains enough mass to penetrate sufficiently. I think the fact that it's got 1600fps behind it helps it penetrate, too!

But for jacket separation, the 165gr Golden Saber is a classic example. Despite losing nearly half their weight at that speed, I've never seen a 135gr Nosler actually lose its entire jacket.

21Carrier
12-21-2011, 17:45
Awesome those wax tests are...you could probably write a book 21..."10mm for Dummies"...Thanks for sharing those 21....
I didnt see a test for the 200 gr xtp at 1200fps...did I miss it?

I tested the 200gr XTP, but not at 1200fps. I thought my test load was around 1200fps, but I didn't have a chrono at the time. Later, I chronographed the test load at 1114fps (from my G29). This is one of those bullets that I want to retest at higher velocity. Seeing this thread with the pictures attached (unlike in the 10mm Reloading Forum, where pics show as links), it really makes me want to repost the wax tube thread material here in the 10 Ring. Here are the pictures from the 200gr XTP at 1114fps.

<table style="width:auto;"><tr><td><a href="https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/4sA9UNsDo5F49yXh94HtLdMTjNZETYmyPJy0liipFm0?feat=embedwebsite"><img src="https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-8Hn_QCZw5B8/Tcib79eVT1I/AAAAAAAAAEA/FoGGpSk65MA/s800/IMG_1011.jpg" height="598" width="800" /></a></td></tr><tr><td style="font-family:arial,sans-serif; font-size:11px; text-align:right">From <a href="https://picasaweb.google.com/114900770472916837948/200grXTPWaxTubeTest?authuser=0&feat=embedwebsite">200gr XTP wax tube test</a></td></tr></table>

<table style="width:auto;"><tr><td><a href="https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/hdxuK9fM1Y5kp2f43eCDfNMTjNZETYmyPJy0liipFm0?feat=embedwebsite"><img src="https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-BJcLuutDoro/Tcib48jIkDI/AAAAAAAAAD8/qo9RCpxM9WY/s800/IMG_1012.jpg" height="598" width="800" /></a></td></tr><tr><td style="font-family:arial,sans-serif; font-size:11px; text-align:right">From <a href="https://picasaweb.google.com/114900770472916837948/200grXTPWaxTubeTest?authuser=0&feat=embedwebsite">200gr XTP wax tube test</a></td></tr></table>

<table style="width:auto;"><tr><td><a href="https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/ySzuTqjE4UAaVNrNf-hKr9MTjNZETYmyPJy0liipFm0?feat=embedwebsite"><img src="https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-qs0lExVfGXI/Tcib7-P0XBI/AAAAAAAAAEE/OzQGC6l2bYw/s800/IMG_1013.jpg" height="598" width="800" /></a></td></tr><tr><td style="font-family:arial,sans-serif; font-size:11px; text-align:right">From <a href="https://picasaweb.google.com/114900770472916837948/200grXTPWaxTubeTest?authuser=0&feat=embedwebsite">200gr XTP wax tube test</a></td></tr></table>

<table style="width:auto;"><tr><td><a href="https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/85Oqqdzxfwoyfg0deMSZDtMTjNZETYmyPJy0liipFm0?feat=embedwebsite"><img src="https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-L0ge1DG2vvo/TcibZ1y6BiI/AAAAAAAAADw/DnJV40Dppf8/s800/IMG_1007.jpg" height="598" width="800" /></a></td></tr><tr><td style="font-family:arial,sans-serif; font-size:11px; text-align:right">From <a href="https://picasaweb.google.com/114900770472916837948/200grXTPWaxTubeTest?authuser=0&feat=embedwebsite">200gr XTP wax tube test</a></td></tr></table>

This was one of my first tests, and the shot was not dead center. Because of that, it blew out one side of the wax. That's another reason I want to retest this bullet. I doubt the results would be much different at 1200fps. Penetration should be a little deeper, and the initial stretch cavity would likely be somewhat larger. However, the bullet should look pretty similar. XTPs seem to always expand identically, no matter the velocity.

blastfact
12-21-2011, 18:52
Yep 21, Almost every XTP I've dug out looks like that one. I've never shot them into wax. But animal flesh, water, wet news paper, phone books wet and dry, dirt, sand, cars, apple computer products and phones. Speaking of phones,,, I need to find that awful 3G iphoney thing and take the G20 to it. Solid steel plate makes them look a tad diff. than yours. :)

They just seem to work. They don't so much expand the nose of the bullet and make real pretty pedals. They seem to crush in on themselves and flip the pedals. They seem to shed some lead. But not a lot and hold together well.

rcd567
12-21-2011, 23:30
All I know is that the pictures of the 165gr JHPs on Underwood's website look IDENTICAL to Zero bullets. They blow apart in water at about 1100fps. I'm talking about just finding tiny little pieces, NO CORE LEFT. Even the jacket comes apart. They might not even penetrate to the vitals in a side shot. I'm not joking about that. I don't care if they are made by Winchester or Zero, but that bullet design in the website pictures is not meant for 10mm SD.

Hey 21Carrier,
I do appreciate all that you do. Just a couple points. 1) The 165 gr bullets from Underwood that I've fired have hung together and penetrated deeply into semi frozen mud. I do have a little trouble believing they evaporate into water/air. But maybe so.:dunno:2) Have you compared the price of the Underwood 165 JHP round to say Winchester Silvertips? Half the price. Kevin has some Gold Dots, 155 and 165s I believe on order. That would/will be my self defense round. I also have a few hundred Gold Dots which I'll be loading as soon as I'm done with my FMJ rounds.

I'd have no problem carrying Underwood's 165 round for SD from what I've experienced. Two different folks with two different opinions. And bullets do some of the strangest things when shot into people.

Keep up the testing and hail all to the 10mm!

21Carrier
12-22-2011, 03:03
Hey 21Carrier,
I do appreciate all that you do. Just a couple points. 1) The 165 gr bullets from Underwood that I've fired have hung together and penetrated deeply into semi frozen mud. I do have a little trouble believing they evaporate into water/air. But maybe so.:dunno:2) Have you compared the price of the Underwood 165 JHP round to say Winchester Silvertips? Half the price. Kevin has some Gold Dots, 155 and 165s I believe on order. That would/will be my self defense round. I also have a few hundred Gold Dots which I'll be loading as soon as I'm done with my FMJ rounds.

I'd have no problem carrying Underwood's 165 round for SD from what I've experienced. Two different folks with two different opinions. And bullets do some of the strangest things when shot into people.

Keep up the testing and hail all to the 10mm!

I haven't even shot any Underwood ammo, so I'm just guessing. I'm not trying to bash their ammo, because we all know it's good. I just don't want someone to need their gun, and have their ammo fail to penetrate. After all, penetration and blood loss is the only thing that's going to guarantee a stop. I'm just speaking from my experience with 165gr Zero JHPs, which happen to look identical to the pictures on Underwood's website. I also remember that I had issues with those bullets keyholing or tumbling at about 1300fps in my G29. That may be a "my gun" issue, a short barrel issue, or it may have been the powder/load (800-X). Anyway, that's a separate issue from terminal performance.

For all I know, those could be Winchester bullets that just happen to use the same stamp to create the nose. They might look identical, but have different lead alloy. Anything could change how they perform, and again, I'm just guessing.

I can tell you that I have a coffee can full of recovered hollow points. Each bullet is wrapped in clear packaging tape, then marked with the load, test medium (water, wax, etc.), and bullet type. I have kept every bullet I've ever recovered from water or wax for future reference. I don't even have one for the 165gr Zero bullet, because I could never find any pieces big enough to be worth keeping. My results could be just a fluke, but that's all I can go on. I wasn't trying to bad mouth anyone's choice of a carry round, I just think there are many better choices out there than what appears to be a generic/bulk bullet clearly going way faster than it was ever designed to go. In my opinion, that load was not meant for SD use. It is an AWESOME full-power fun load, but when we're talking carry rounds, that's your life on the line. We don't even know for sure what the bullet it. They are cheap, and great for fun, but CARRY ammo is not always the best place for cheap.

rcd567
12-22-2011, 06:51
I haven't even shot any Underwood ammo, so I'm just guessing. I'm not trying to bash their ammo, because we all know it's good. I just don't want someone to need their gun, and have their ammo fail to penetrate. After all, penetration and blood loss is the only thing that's going to guarantee a stop. I'm just speaking from my experience with 165gr Zero JHPs, which happen to look identical to the pictures on Underwood's website. I also remember that I had issues with those bullets keyholing or tumbling at about 1300fps in my G29. That may be a "my gun" issue, a short barrel issue, or it may have been the powder/load (800-X). Anyway, that's a separate issue from terminal performance.

For all I know, those could be Winchester bullets that just happen to use the same stamp to create the nose. They might look identical, but have different lead alloy. Anything could change how they perform, and again, I'm just guessing.

I can tell you that I have a coffee can full of recovered hollow points. Each bullet is wrapped in clear packaging tape, then marked with the load, test medium (water, wax, etc.), and bullet type. I have kept every bullet I've ever recovered from water or wax for future reference. I don't even have one for the 165gr Zero bullet, because I could never find any pieces big enough to be worth keeping. My results could be just a fluke, but that's all I can go on. I wasn't trying to bad mouth anyone's choice of a carry round, I just think there are many better choices out there than what appears to be a generic/bulk bullet clearly going way faster than it was ever designed to go. In my opinion, that load was not meant for SD use. It is an AWESOME full-power fun load, but when we're talking carry rounds, that's your life on the line. We don't even know for sure what the bullet it. They are cheap, and great for fun, but CARRY ammo is not always the best place for cheap.

I have to agree 1000 percent! I also agree that Winchester Silvertips are great bullets. I've had the opportunity to study the effect of bullets on bodies. Eight years as a forensic officer and attending over 80 autopsies has taught me that bullets do strange things when traveling through a human body. Especially when they have passed through an object before hitting that body. Dry wall, windshields, different types of clothing all can play a factor.

There are two things I've found to be the utmost important in a gunfight, first you've got to hit what your shooting at. If you can hit center mass even better...the best hit is in the central nervous system. And second, the best handgun round is a poor performer when compared to a rifle round.

I do enjoy your posts and threads. Keep up the good work.

broncobuddha1
12-22-2011, 08:00
Not really jacket separation. They definitely shed mass. They do fragment to some extent, but the jacket stays on the bullet. Jacket separation is more clearly illustrated by the 165gr Golden Saber in my first picture. The 135gr Nosler is a pretty tough bullet. I think everyone has this idea that it's fragile, but given that it's going nearly 1600fps, it does VERY well to stay together like it does. Also, both my tests and Kegs's hunting use of that bullet shows that it retains enough mass to penetrate sufficiently. I think the fact that it's got 1600fps behind it helps it penetrate, too!

But for jacket separation, the 165gr Golden Saber is a classic example. Despite losing nearly half their weight at that speed, I've never seen a 135gr Nosler actually lose its entire jacket.


Thanks for the reply.

So, it definitely sounds like 135gr nosler is a win for home defense. However, I've not shot anything that hot. How bad is it getting back on target? (FYI, my HD/SD weapon is a DW 1911 CBOB 4.25" barrel.)

Do you think the 135 would also work for carry? My concern is clothing, etc...

Right now I carry Hornady 155gr XTPs. I bought some 165gr Georgia Arms ammo at the last show. I would think the Underwood 165s would be a good carry round provided they're using proven bullets.

I have an issue with carrying reloads. God forbid I ever have to use my weapon in my defense, I'd have enough legal issues without that fact being brought into the mix.

I've even got a box or so of Black Talons. I've shot a couple of them at the range and load wise, their kitty cats compared to other stuff. They just have that stigma that could get you into legal issues even though there is a ton of way more vicious factory ammo going around. Funny how that works huh?

Loving the discussion!

Jitterbug
12-22-2011, 08:46
bronco, I got 1586 fps average out of 3 different samples of the D.T. 135 from my CBOB, with an extreme spread of 262 fps. Obviously velocity varied significantly from lot to lot purchased over a period of a couple of years.

I found the shot to shot recovery times to be good and when using the same lot accuracy and point of impact was very good, at least under 15 yards. I don't have much data recorded for groups beyond that distance. Most of my range work was offhand at 7-15 yards, and here the load did very well, usually a small ragged 8 round hole at point of aim.

A different recoil cycle then my usual 180 gr. Gold Dot @ 1175 fps from Georgia Arms, but as quick if not a bit quicker to get back on target. I found the recoil very manageable in the CBOB with the light and fast load...all things considered, it's still a hot load at 1600 fps. But way better then say a 125 grain .357 from a 4" barrel.

Even though some have had some very good results, such as Keg's fully penetrating a small deer, I still have some reservations about such a light bullet, but I'm leaning on testing some 155/165's as an all round general purpose 10mm load for city and home use. Either Gold Dot's, XTP's or Silvertips.

I'm thinking a 155 gr. XTP at 1300 fps might be a good all round choice.

One of my objectives is to find a bullet that is always available which will do it all well, so I'm leaning towards the 155 XTP. I could really simply my loads with a 155, 180 and 200 XTP and WFNGC HC and leave the rest to settling on a velocity window with low flash and accuracy, then focus on practice and more practice. I use fixed sights so I NEED to know the POI with each load, if I find I like the 155, I may drop the need for a 180.

I don't want to run off course with the handload verses factory for CCW, but I'll say this, after many years of CCW, I've finally made up my mind that I'll work up a good load and then stick with it for practice and carry. There is just to much change in POI to have one very expensive boutique factory load for CCW and then a similar one for practice, it sounds good on paper, but in reality it's difficult to achieve. I've also found the $1+ boutique loads to be less then accurate when compared to my handloads, not just in 10mm but other calibers to.

I hear ya about lawyer's and legal issues, yep, they will turn a molehill into a mountain every chance they get, this is how they make a living. But after much research and reading tons about the issue, I've come to the conclusion a good shoot is a good shoot and type of ammo used "probably" won't be an issue.

I'm a civilian and after 40 or so years of being just about everywhere in this country and in a somewhat dangerous occupation at various times, I've never fired a shot in self defense...so far so good in that regard and I hope it remains that way for the rest of my years. Situational awareness and using ones head goes a long, long ways to avoiding that kind of trouble.

Others may disagree and perhaps they can afford to pay $1-1.50 a round for expensive factory ammo to practice effectively with, I simply can't afford to do that.

Even XTP's with new brass are going to run me around .50 cents each so they're not inexpensive either.

Hopefully I've purchased my last box of factory ammo, I really don't have a need or desire for it anymore.

arushus
12-22-2011, 12:08
How come the only nosler HP round that is manufactured (much less tested by us) is the 135gr round? Id be very interested to see how the nosler 150gr round performs since the 135gr round does shed mass pretty badly, usually it seems to lose about half its mass. Nosler makes 135, 150, 180, and 200gr hollowpoints, and Im just really interested to learn how they perform when pushed to the max like is done with the 135gr...

Anyone ever seen or heard of any testing done like this, or done any themselves? Ill be reloading shortly after Christmas myself, and the other weights of nosler hollowpoints will be among the first bullets I order. Im especially interested in the 150gr round as a self defense round!

10 fan
12-22-2011, 13:54
I don't reload (yet) so have only used factory ammo. I had always thought the general (uneducated) rule for SD performance was heavy bullet at high velocity. I know I have alot to learn,the more I read the more I know I have alot to learn. I think I'm going backwards.

ModGlock17
12-22-2011, 14:39
My primary concern for SD round is collateral damages that it may cause. The first scenario is in close quarters like a living room or a foyer, your own family members can get a piece of it in nearby rooms. Now if you'd look at a typical BG entering a home, I think it is likely that they are not 12 inches "thick" (big belly of muscle or reserved muscle) but more likely to be thinner.

So when I saw the picture that a 135gr moving over 1,500fps went in a whole 12"+ on a deer, it alarmed me. Too much. For Home SD. I have rethink what is good for home SD, and now have the opinion that it is too much for this purpose. May be a 9mm +p at 115gr or 127gr is sufficient, without creating regretable situation to family members. Or perhaps a much slower 135gr 10mm. Like 1,200fps.

Now, the second scenario is outside in a mall parking lot or some place similar. There's more room to scatter, and the BG is more likely to be "thicker" than one in home invasion. In this case, the "carry" round (versus the "nightstand" round) can be 135gr at 1,600fps.

A subset of this situation is when you need something that can penetrate a vehicle, then the 180gr 1,300fps+ comes into play. But without car and steel in the way, the 180gr can go a long way, which is not cool in urban areas.

The next scenario is the woods. Yes, 200gr makes sense for long penetrations.

So in summary, I need 3 round types: the "nightstand" round for the home, the "carry" round to go to town, and heavy round for the woods.

dryfly
12-22-2011, 15:32
Hey 21 Thanks for the xtp picts !
You do great work that benefits us 10-ringers...
I like this bullet in 300 grain out of my 50 cal muzzleloader....
I gotta get some of Underwoods 200grainers and test them for myself....

21Carrier
12-24-2011, 04:08
How come the only nosler HP round that is manufactured (much less tested by us) is the 135gr round? Id be very interested to see how the nosler 150gr round performs since the 135gr round does shed mass pretty badly, usually it seems to lose about half its mass. Nosler makes 135, 150, 180, and 200gr hollowpoints, and Im just really interested to learn how they perform when pushed to the max like is done with the 135gr...

Anyone ever seen or heard of any testing done like this, or done any themselves? Ill be reloading shortly after Christmas myself, and the other weights of nosler hollowpoints will be among the first bullets I order. Im especially interested in the 150gr round as a self defense round!

I've shot LOTS of each weight of Nosler JHPs. I've also tested the 150gr JHPs, but not the 180gr or 200gr bullets (shot hundreds, just never into water/wax). I thought I ran the 150gr bullet through the wax tube, but maybe not. If so, I'll post pics here. If not, I'll correct myself (I checked, and I DID test the 150gr Nosler, see post #194 in my wax tube thread). I can tell you one thing, I remember having problems getting the 150gr JHPs to open reliably in water. I think I shot about 5 into water jugs (at about 1400fps), and only 1 or 2 even opened. It was odd. Some actually CLOSED. Since all of the Nosler JHPs have the same hollow point design (basically, the heavier ones are identical, just longer), I figure they should all have similar opening characteristics. If the 150gr bullet is struggling to open at 1400fps, I can't imagine how the 200gr bullet will open at 1150fps. They definitely have a small cavity. Whatever the case, the rest of the Nosler JHPs are on my short list of next bullets to test. As always, you know I'll push them to the limit. I should be shooting a lot of Noslers from now on, because I can now order them directly from Nosler for pretty cheap.

Here are some pics of what happened with the 150gr Nosler JHP in the wax tube (velocity: 1412fps):

http://i1104.photobucket.com/albums/h329/21Carrier/photo-27.jpg

http://i1104.photobucket.com/albums/h329/21Carrier/photo-26.jpg

The bullet on the left is from water jugs, the right is from the wax tube. Basically, these fail to open sometimes. I think the 135gr bullet just always opens because it's going incredibly fast. The wound tract in the wax is pretty similar to what an FMJ should do. In elastic tissue, that would rebound back to an icepick-like wound.

arushus
12-24-2011, 13:57
Thanks carrier, I really didnt think about them not opening. Thats really odd, you would think Nosler would know about this issue and correct it! Their name among handgunners isnt huge, but among former rifle guys, like me, nosler is a BIG name! One of the biggest. I just cant believe they dont slightly redesign their heavier hollowpoints....

B.Reid
12-24-2011, 16:31
In my 10mm's I stay with 180 and 200 grain bullets. I save the lighter bullets for my 40 S&W's.

arushus
12-28-2011, 10:11
Well I finally went and shot a mag each of the 180gr GS, and 200gr xtp's. All fired fine and cycled perfectly. I think my sights are off though, since most of my hits at 15 yards were left or low and left. It definitely couldnt have been the fact that I hadnt been shooting in almost a month and have probably developed a flinch since I didnt warm up at all, just started firing at my targets. They were bad enough that I was too embarrassed to take pics. Itis either the ammo, or my gun, definitely not the shooter! Im way too much of a 10mm pro to be dealing with flinches or the newbie glock trigger issues, right?

Haha, I hopeyou can tell Im joking. I really have to get out and shoot more often. I seem to have lost my accuracy or my "touch" or whatever you wanna call it. The tow mags I shot horribly depressed me so much I just put the pistol down and shot my .22 rifle the rest of my time out...

Ethereal Killer
12-28-2011, 10:34
Well I finally went and shot a mag each of the 180gr GS, and 200gr xtp's. All fired fine and cycled perfectly. I think my sights are off though, since most of my hits at 15 yards were left or low and left. It definitely couldnt have been the fact that I hadnt been shooting in almost a month and have probably developed a flinch since I didnt warm up at all, just started firing at my targets. They were bad enough that I was too embarrassed to take pics. Itis either the ammo, or my gun, definitely not the shooter! Im way too much of a 10mm pro to be dealing with flinches or the newbie glock trigger issues, right?

Haha, I hopeyou can tell Im joking. I really have to get out and shoot more often. I seem to have lost my accuracy or my "touch" or whatever you wanna call it. The tow mags I shot horribly depressed me so much I just put the pistol down and shot my .22 rifle the rest of my time out...

LOL, bro, there are days where I cant shoot a 10 for **** either!! dont feel bad. it happens.

As to your load. there are a LOT of informal and un calibrated test results involving wax or water, none of which are really objective or repeatable in a consistent manner. Being a bit of a follower of Doc Roberts and his testing, the golden saber rises to the top of your choices in his testing. keep in mind that driving a projectile past its design envelope will only result in a smaller wound channel from over expansion. A factory 10mm Golden Saber is an excellent choice. I too prefer the Gold Dots, but the GS doesnt give up much if anything to the GD, and BOTH have been thoroughly tested in labs and on the street for use against humans.

Much respect to 21carrier for his testing, but it's not lab testing and cant be related to anything except itself in any scientifically meaningful or prescise manner. It's valuable as it relates to his other tests, and as part of a body of testing of the 10mm (which is largely ignored by "proper" testers). I really do think it's awesome that he's doing this.

It's been proven that a projectile that consistently opens thru barriers and penetrates to 12-16" of 10% ballistics gel will perform adequately on the street. the Golden Saber is the only one you originally listed that has had the testing to prove it's worth. here's the list from the 40 cal, whose projectiles made the grade:

Barnes XPB 155 gr JHP (copper bullet)
Speer Gold Dot 155 gr JHP
Federal Tactical 165 gr JHP (LE40T3)
Winchester Ranger-T 165 gr JHP (RA40TA)
Winchester Partition Gold 165 gr JHP (RA401P)
Federal HST 180 gr JHP (P40HST1)
Federal Tactical 180 gr JHP (LE40T1)
Remington Golden Saber 180 gr JHP (GS40SWB)
Speer Gold Dot 180 gr JHP
Winchester Ranger-T 180 gr JHP (RA40T)
Winchester 180 gr bonded JHP (RA40B/Q4355/S40SWPDB1)

For legitimate self defense purposes, I'd stick with stuff thats been proven do do what it needs to do.

arushus
12-28-2011, 11:26
Thanks for the advice and support!

just out of curiosity, where is this list published?

Ethereal Killer
12-28-2011, 22:01
Thanks for the advice and support!

just out of curiosity, where is this list published?

WHOLE BUNCHES of awesome ballistic information straight from the guy doing the testing for the government and LE agencies. DocGKR

http://www.m4carbine.net/forumdisplay.php?f=91

there is enough info in the stickies alone to make you more knowledgable about terminal ballistics than 95% of shooters.

SolidBrass
12-28-2011, 22:59
Would not any 10mm JHP on human be devastating? A 1050 ft/sec 180gr cheap'o still has more human killing power than anything in that sized gun. When I think of awesome 10mm ammo I think of saving life from a tent mauling bear, or stopping the mad man in body armor.

Ethereal Killer
12-29-2011, 00:12
Would not any 10mm JHP on human be devastating? A 1050 ft/sec 180gr cheap'o still has more human killing power than anything in that sized gun. When I think of awesome 10mm ammo I think of saving life from a tent mauling bear, or stopping the mad man in body armor.

Not significantly more than any other .400 caliber bullet is. wounds from a 10mm pistol pretty much pale in comparison to a decent rifle round. Even a 223 60gr partition will make a larger more devastating wound than the best 10mm. The 223 TAP may not penetrate as far as say a 200gr would tho.

as much as we'd like to beleive it, the 10mm is just not a magical destructo-beam. it's still subject to the same laws of physics as the 9mm or 40 or 45.

Go look at the hunting pics on deer. you pretty much see full penetration with a consistent wound cavity all the way thru. nothing special there at all.

21Carrier
12-29-2011, 02:55
LOL, bro, there are days where I cant shoot a 10 for **** either!! dont feel bad. it happens.

As to your load. there are a LOT of informal and un calibrated test results involving wax or water, none of which are really objective or repeatable in a consistent manner. Being a bit of a follower of Doc Roberts and his testing, the golden saber rises to the top of your choices in his testing. keep in mind that driving a projectile past its design envelope will only result in a smaller wound channel from over expansion. A factory 10mm Golden Saber is an excellent choice. I too prefer the Gold Dots, but the GS doesnt give up much if anything to the GD, and BOTH have been thoroughly tested in labs and on the street for use against humans.

Much respect to 21carrier for his testing, but it's not lab testing and cant be related to anything except itself in any scientifically meaningful or prescise manner. It's valuable as it relates to his other tests, and as part of a body of testing of the 10mm (which is largely ignored by "proper" testers). I really do think it's awesome that he's doing this.

It's been proven that a projectile that consistently opens thru barriers and penetrates to 12-16" of 10% ballistics gel will perform adequately on the street. the Golden Saber is the only one you originally listed that has had the testing to prove it's worth. here's the list from the 40 cal, whose projectiles made the grade:

Barnes XPB 155 gr JHP (copper bullet)
Speer Gold Dot 155 gr JHP
Federal Tactical 165 gr JHP (LE40T3)
Winchester Ranger-T 165 gr JHP (RA40TA)
Winchester Partition Gold 165 gr JHP (RA401P)
Federal HST 180 gr JHP (P40HST1)
Federal Tactical 180 gr JHP (LE40T1)
Remington Golden Saber 180 gr JHP (GS40SWB)
Speer Gold Dot 180 gr JHP
Winchester Ranger-T 180 gr JHP (RA40T)
Winchester 180 gr bonded JHP (RA40B/Q4355/S40SWPDB1)

For legitimate self defense purposes, I'd stick with stuff thats been proven do do what it needs to do.

The problem here is that there IS NO SUCH THING as a Golden Saber factory 10mm load. The only thing we have is the Underwood stuff, which is pushing the bullet way beyond its design (which was .40S&W velocity). The Golden Sabers may have done well in testing, but that was at .40S&W speed. I've long heard complaints about Golden Sabers shedding their jackets, and in more calibers than just 10mm. I think it was actually a pretty big concern with the .45ACP rounds. That's surely why Remington started offering a bonded version. I am confident the bonded version would be quite a good choice. However, I still maintain that at least the 165gr Golden Saber is about worthless if you're using it in a full-power 10mm load. I can't be sure about the 180gr bullet until I test it. At .40S&W velocity, the 165gr GSHP might be the best out there, but it's over-driven at 10mm velocity.

21Carrier
12-29-2011, 03:01
Would not any 10mm JHP on human be devastating? A 1050 ft/sec 180gr cheap'o still has more human killing power than anything in that sized gun. When I think of awesome 10mm ammo I think of saving life from a tent mauling bear, or stopping the mad man in body armor.

I wouldn't count on ANY 10mm ammo to defeat body armor. You'd need a steel penetrator to make it work. I think it would certainly be more effective than 9mm, .40S&W, or .45ACP, but it wouldn't be like a .22LR vs. a 12-gauge. They are all shades of a handgun. That being said, I do think a high energy 10mm round that penetrates about 12" would be almost twice as destructive as a 9mm round. That's just what I think, and I don't want to get into the whole energy thing for a millionth time, but it makes sense to me.

glock20c10mm
12-29-2011, 22:20
I still maintain that at least the 165gr Golden Saber is about worthless if you're using it in a full-power 10mm load.
Why?

Do you believe it's incapable of reaching the vitals of humans at 1300fps - 1400fps?

As for shedding of jackets, so what? In all of time there is only a single negative issue a bullet can have by shedding a jacket. That is that bullets that become frag-nasty after shedding their jackets won't reach the vitals too often. In my limited experience, non-bonded Golden Sabers act almost identical to XTPs. And when either non-bonded Golden Sabers and XTPs lose their jackets, neither becomes frag-nasty losing ability to still reach the vitals.

attrapereves
12-29-2011, 22:41
Why?

Do you believe it's incapable of reaching the vitals of humans at 1300fps - 1400fps?

As for shedding of jackets, so what? In all of time there is only a single negative issue a bullet can have by shedding a jacket. That is that bullets that become frag-nasty after shedding their jackets won't reach the vitals too often. In my limited experience, non-bonded Golden Sabers act almost identical to XTPs. And when either non-bonded Golden Sabers and XTPs lose their jackets, neither becomes frag-nasty losing ability to still reach the vitals.

If the bullet sheds the jacket, it essentially becomes a FMJ round. As we all know, FMJ bullets, especially 10mm are a danger to others because of over penetration. They don't stop a threat as well as JHP because shot placement becomes even more important.

Most of the testing I've seen on factory Golden Sabers shows that jacket separation usually occurs right before the lead core comes to a stop. If the bullet it travelling 300fps+ faster than it's supposed to, this means that the jacket will be shed quicker and the lead core will keep on going.

If the bullet enters the body and sheds the jacket within the first few inches, the performance probably won't be as good as a bullet that travels while staying together as one piece.

I carry and trust GSs in 9mm and 45ACP, but I won't carry them overloaded in 10mm.

Taterhead
12-29-2011, 22:42
Why?

Do you believe it's incapable of reaching the vitals of humans at 1300fps - 1400fps?

As for shedding of jackets, so what? In all of time there is only a single negative issue a bullet can have by shedding a jacket. That is that bullets that become frag-nasty after shedding their jackets won't reach the vitals too often. In my limited experience, non-bonded Golden Sabers act almost identical to XTPs. And when either non-bonded Golden Sabers and XTPs lose their jackets, neither becomes frag-nasty losing ability to still reach the vitals.

I can't speak for Carrier, but my concern with jacket separation and losing mass is when barriers are interjected into the situation. You may need to shoot through your bedroom wall to get a guy seeking cover behind it. Jacket separation through intermediate barriers relegates a bullet to being less effective. No doubt a squared up shot on a human torso would cause big damage at high speeds even with a fraggy bullet. As I said, though, in a less-than-perfect scenario a more suitable bullet selection can make the difference. Depending upon the angle, distance to the vitals can be longer than a few inches. Throigh arm through shoulder through chest cavity etc.

I have zero experience with Golden Sabers, but the XTPs have held together at everything I have shot with them.

Ethereal Killer
12-30-2011, 00:41
for the love of pete. we know the 180gr tests well thru barriers and flesh at 40 velocities. if you want it to perform well in a 10mm then use a little discretion and dont over drive it!!
really is that simple. you'll get the same performance at the same velocity.

as to jacket shedding, that can actually be a benefit assuming that you can still reach the minimum 12-18" penetration. I think the 180 would do that pretty well.

As a general rule for the 40, bullets in the upper weight classes generally do better. specifically the 180gr (half of the acceptable loads are 180gr). of course the all copper barnes are an exception to that rule. I would expect the 10mm to follow that same trend to some extent.

You will also note that the 165gr GS did not make the list, lending some creedence to 21c's assertion

glock20c10mm
12-30-2011, 00:45
If the bullet sheds the jacket, it essentially becomes a FMJ round.
NO it doesn't. Where on Earth are you getting that idea from?!?

glock20c10mm
12-30-2011, 00:49
You will also note that the 165gr GS did not make the list, lending some creedence to 21c's assertion
How do you know it was tested?

http://www.firearmstactical.com/test_data/40sw/rem40-165gs-g27.htm

I'm not seeing an issue at least yet.

21Carrier
12-30-2011, 04:39
Why?

Do you believe it's incapable of reaching the vitals of humans at 1300fps - 1400fps?

As for shedding of jackets, so what? In all of time there is only a single negative issue a bullet can have by shedding a jacket. That is that bullets that become frag-nasty after shedding their jackets won't reach the vitals too often. In my limited experience, non-bonded Golden Sabers act almost identical to XTPs. And when either non-bonded Golden Sabers and XTPs lose their jackets, neither becomes frag-nasty losing ability to still reach the vitals.

I guess I overstated it when I said "about worthless". I just meant that it was one of the worst showings I've seen in my "tests". The only thing that did any REAL penetration (more than 3-4") was a little chunk of core that weighed 89.7gr and measured about .500". And to answer your question, no, I don't believe that little core is capable of RELIABLY reaching vitals. If you have to shoot through an arm, then through 8" of torso (in a side shot) to get to the heart, you might be screwed. Honestly, it's penetration wasn't bad (probably better than the 135gr bullets), but the overall wounding was terrible. I would just worry about that little core getting stopped by a rib or something.

Look guys, I'm not trying to mess with anyone's choice of carry rounds, I'm just stating what I've seen in my playing with bullets and wax/water. I just think there are much better rounds out there when we're talking full-power 10mm velocity. If we're talking light 10mm, or .40S&W, I'm confident the Golden Saber would be great. But given that we're talking about 10mm (and who wants to carry a 10mm and then load it with .40S&W rounds?!) I think there are better choices. That's just my opinion. I would rather have the deep penetration, mass retention, and expansion of a Gold Dot, or the devastation of a 135gr Nosler (or others).

21Carrier
12-30-2011, 04:53
for the love of pete. we know the 180gr tests well thru barriers and flesh at 40 velocities. if you want it to perform well in a 10mm then use a little discretion and dont over drive it!!
really is that simple. you'll get the same performance at the same velocity.

as to jacket shedding, that can actually be a benefit assuming that you can still reach the minimum 12-18" penetration. I think the 180 would do that pretty well.

As a general rule for the 40, bullets in the upper weight classes generally do better. specifically the 180gr (half of the acceptable loads are 180gr). of course the all copper barnes are an exception to that rule. I would expect the 10mm to follow that same trend to some extent.

You will also note that the 165gr GS did not make the list, lending some creedence to 21c's assertion

That first statement sounds like you are trying too hard to be able to use a Golden Saber. Why download your rounds to use a particular bullet when you have so much more potential on tap? Why not just have a .40S&W? If we are going to shoot, carry, or hunt with 10mms, we should be using real 10mm ammo, not .40S&W in 10mm cases. To me, it seems the best option would be to just change to a bullet that can handle the extra velocity. There are plenty out there.

I am not sure I follow you with jacket shedding being a good thing. I understand what you mean that as long as penetration depth is met, it's ok. However, one good thing a jacket does when it expands is make razor sharp edges that cut. Look at that picture of the 165gr GSHP I posted. If that jacket had stayed attached, it would have caused MASSIVE cutting damage. And cutting damage is great. It's even better than stretch damage, because it's permanent.

Ethereal Killer
12-30-2011, 11:21
If we are going to shoot, carry, or hunt with 10mms, we should be using real 10mm ammo, not .40S&W in 10mm cases. To me, it seems the best option would be to just change to a bullet that can handle the extra velocity. There are plenty out there.

This is the answer. the barnes projectiles would seem to be the most capable in the 10mm envelope, with the 200gr XTP and teh hardcast rounds also filling the bill.

I am not sure I follow you with jacket shedding being a good thing. I understand what you mean that as long as penetration depth is met, it's ok. However, one good thing a jacket does when it expands is make razor sharp edges that cut. Look at that picture of the 165gr GSHP I posted. If that jacket had stayed attached, it would have caused MASSIVE cutting damage. And cutting damage is great. It's even better than stretch damage, because it's permanent.

1-fragmentation can cause additional wound channels if there is still sufficient velocity and energy to reach critical depth. this is usually best in rifles not pistols tho. I agree that it's probably not a positive aspect and points to the projectile beiing driven past it's design envelope
2- TSC or stretch is only beneficial to us if it can create fracturing of the flesh, IOW expansion beyond the point the flesh can recover. Thus in pistol rounds cutting is superior unless you can reach that point.
3-part of the problem with pushing 40 projectiles to 10 velocities is what you see with the 165GS... they overexpand creating a smaller wound channel or fragment creating an insufficient wound channel. Thus pushing a round 100fps faster can actually make the wounds smaller not larger. It's all about projectile design not speed or energy
4- the OP asked about the projectiles on his list, this is why we are even discussing the GS rounds. the fact is that there are better projectiles suited for the 10mm but he didnt ask that question. If he did, I'll be that the barnes projectiles would float to the top.

4949shooter
12-30-2011, 12:06
Fragmentation in a pistol round can be a good thing if the fragmentation occurs within reason. If a reasonable amount of fragmentation occurs without jacket separation, each fragment will create it's own wound channel.

I'm not so sure that a bullet losing it's entire jacket is a good thing though. That sounds like something is wrong, as bullets are not designed to shed their jackets.

glock20c10mm
12-30-2011, 15:07
I guess I overstated it when I said "about worthless". I just meant that it was one of the worst showings I've seen in my "tests". The only thing that did any REAL penetration (more than 3-4") was a little chunk of core that weighed 89.7gr and measured about .500". And to answer your question, no, I don't believe that little core is capable of RELIABLY reaching vitals. If you have to shoot through an arm, then through 8" of torso (in a side shot) to get to the heart, you might be screwed. Honestly, it's penetration wasn't bad (probably better than the 135gr bullets), but the overall wounding was terrible. I would just worry about that little core getting stopped by a rib or something.

Look guys, I'm not trying to mess with anyone's choice of carry rounds, I'm just stating what I've seen in my playing with bullets and wax/water. I just think there are much better rounds out there when we're talking full-power 10mm velocity. If we're talking light 10mm, or .40S&W, I'm confident the Golden Saber would be great. But given that we're talking about 10mm (and who wants to carry a 10mm and then load it with .40S&W rounds?!) I think there are better choices. That's just my opinion. I would rather have the deep penetration, mass retention, and expansion of a Gold Dot, or the devastation of a 135gr Nosler (or others).
Thanks for clarifying.:)

broncobuddha1
01-10-2012, 09:58
Fwiw, I shot a box of Underwood 135 gr rated at 1600fps and its a really nice shooting round.

And I'll be purchasing from Kevin again. Great to deal with.

Funny thing though...during one of my reloads this woman probably in her late 40s in the next lane steps around and taps me on the shoulder and jokingly says: "will you knock it off? I keep feeling the heat blast over here and what in the hell are you shooting anyways?!?" Pretty funny.

arushus
01-23-2012, 14:23
Well I just got a couple more hollowpoints in from underwood....so now my list of hollowpoint rounds to choose from looks like this:

200gr xtp
180gr golden sabers
175gr silvertips (factory)
165gr jhp zero?
165gr gold dot
135gr nosler

With the addition of the noslers and gold dots, I now KNOW what rounds I will carry...gold dots for CC, and noslers for HD...anybody disagree?

ratchetjaw
01-23-2012, 16:08
Well I just got a couple more hollowpoints in from underwood....so now my list of hollowpoint rounds to choose from looks like this:

200gr xtp
180gr golden sabers
175gr silvertips (factory)
165gr jhp zero?
165gr gold dot
135gr nosler

With the addition of the noslers and gold dots, I now KNOW what rounds I will carry...gold dots for CC, and noslers for HD...anybody disagree?

That's what I am think for ammo choices also except I am using 165 sabers for ccw( havent received them yet). Shot my g29 for the first time today. Had Hornady 155, Winchester silver tips, Remington UMC and range reloads. Also shot my g30 and recoil seemed more with the g30 and winchester 235gn jhp.