20sf, problems with numerous FTF. Help [Archive] - Glock Talk

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orangeride
12-24-2011, 23:18
Here's the scoop. Back in Nov my brother and I picked up matching brand new G20sf's. At the same time we ordered a 1000 rnds of Georgia Arms 180fmj's to break the guns in. The first day at the range, we both went through 3-4 hundred rounds and both guns ran perfect with all mags. We picked up all the stairline brass and got my Dillion 650 all set up to start realoading. Over the last couple weeks I've really been burning through the powder working up a couple different loads. 135 nosler and 180gr Delta precision FMJ. Through several hundred rounds through my 20 the 180's ran flawless. All at 1.25oal and some as light as 1100fps up to some hotter stuff around 1225fps. The 135's were a little different story, here and their, maybe every 50 rnds I would get a FTF, where the hollow point would hang up on the left or upper left side of the chamber, I eventually went from 1.25" to 1.242" oal and that seemed to fix things. Well last Sat I was at the range with my brother when my gun had the same type of FTF with the 180fmj's, I was floored! By this time my gun has 1500 to 1600 rounds through it and my brother's only has maybe 500. So we continue shooting and the next mag my brother shoot's he has the same FTF. Now I'm a little worried something is really wrong with my load. So here's what finally prompted me to check in with you guys, Im at the range today with my Buddie cause he's got a new Xdm 9mm he's been dying to shoot. My gun FTF like 6 times in 150 rnds with three different mags! 4 times with my 180 that always shot awsome, and two times with my 135's at the new OAL that I thought I had straightened out. By the way the gun is completely stock other than a 3.5# connector and a glock extended slide release. The gun was also Just cleaned and lubed lightly. Here's what I'm thinking, I dont think it's the mags, their new and really don't have many rounds through them, the follower is a little dirty but not bad. I'm thinking I have a brass problem. Some of them have been reloaded maybe 6-7 times and some are only on there 2nd loading. A few had very small smiles from when I was working up my 135 load but I threw 99% of those out. I did a very close look at the rounds that jammed and the round under it in the mag and neither one had any obvious signs that would lead me to believe they wouldnt function correct. Most of the brass has some scars and extractor marks on the rims. Im thinking after repeated loadings the brass might not be sized back down enough and isnt stacking and feeding right from the mags. Also the brass is cleaned and polished very well before loading. Im heading to the range monday and I've got 800 rnds of 180's loaded in brand new stairling nickle cases, im wondering if that fixes my problems. Any Ideas would be nice. Thanks, Aaron

rcd567
12-25-2011, 05:46
OK, first...run some factory ammo through it and see if it still has the same FTF problems. If not, it's a reloading issue. Also if your mixing brass between your Glock and your brothers, that may be an issue. Even though your resizing them, you don't resize the complete casing. Glocks are made to fairly loose tolerances. Glock barrels, or at least mine allows it to "bulge" pretty badly. Some barrels are worse than others.

Like I said in the opening, I'd try some factory stuff and see if that solves the issue. If it does, then maybe we can help trouble shoot your reloading issues.

blastfact
12-25-2011, 08:37
Failing to chamber a round. Is that what the issue is? Makes my head hurt to read that.

orangeride
12-25-2011, 08:48
The rounds chamber just fine, there just feeding wrong. My brothers gun is only 3 numbers off on the serial #. Also I have the sizing die set up to go all the way down, is it still not getting all the case sized?

rcd567
12-25-2011, 10:25
The rounds chamber just fine, there just feeding wrong. My brothers gun is only 3 numbers off on the serial #. Also I have the sizing die set up to go all the way down, is it still not getting all the case sized?

Nope,
There is a small amount of the casing that is covered by the shell holder that doesn't get resized. You can buy a Lee Factory Sizing Die and a Lee Bulge Buster kit from Midwayusa.com. That's a lot of extra work though. I ended up buying a Lone Wolf barrel that has closer tolarences. Now my casings don't have a bulge in them. Not a noticible one anyway. Like I said...try some factory ammo. If that runs fine you know it's not the mags or gun causing the problems.

Reboot
12-25-2011, 10:32
I agree with rcd567. Run some factory ammo through it first or your cartridges made with brand new brass. I dint think your sizes die runs all the way down to the base. You may have to get a push through sizes like the grx for lee.

You can also use your calipers to measure your cartridge dimensions compared to a new factory cartridge or compared to your chamber.

Reboot
12-25-2011, 10:34
Ha. Rcd567 beat me to it. I agree with his recommendation.

orangeride
12-25-2011, 10:48
Thanks for the input guys. Tomorrow I'll be running some fresh stuff through her. I just can't figure out how my brass problems are making my mags run funny. They chamber just fine. Thanks. I'll up date tomorrow after the range. Aaron

Ethereal Killer
12-25-2011, 10:51
Ditto on the bulge buster. a bulge on one side of the case could be pulling the round over to one side.

also check the feed lips of the mag for any burrs just to eliminate that. I just got a bunch of new factory mags and they all needed a little breaking it initially. Also possible your mag catch could be wearing quickly and allowing the mag to move too much.

Are you sizing and chamfering your brass after a load or so?

Could the feed ramp need some polishing? maybe a rough spot on the left side or something pulling the rounds over?

orangeride
12-25-2011, 11:32
Ok guys, I've got more questions. I was just on midway checking out the lee bulge buster and FCD. If I understand correct the FCD will crimp the bullet and re-size the case a second time to smooth things out. I also understand the Buldge buster works with the FCD. Do you need the bulge buster, or will the FCD get me what I need? Also can I run the set up in my Dillion?

JohnJak
12-25-2011, 12:09
Reloading the same brass 6-7 times is a bit unusual IMHO.

blastfact
12-25-2011, 12:46
Ok guys, I've got more questions. I was just on midway checking out the lee bulge buster and FCD. If I understand correct the FCD will crimp the bullet and re-size the case a second time to smooth things out. I also understand the Buldge buster works with the FCD. Do you need the bulge buster, or will the FCD get me what I need? Also can I run the set up in my Dillion?

FCD is useful to some folks and others hate them.

The bulge buster needs to be ran up and through the die to completely remove the idiot Glock Smile. Best course of action is to put a real barrel in your Glock Pistol. Trash the bulged brass and start over.

If you really want to save Glocked brass use the bulge buster in a simple single stage press. It's a simple operation. But be warned >>>> If it's been bulged it's been weakened.

Ethereal Killer
12-25-2011, 13:53
the bulge buster has a little pin that installs in the press that shoves the case thru the partially disassembled FCD. the FCD does not size by itself, it's just used as a sort of "pass thru base sizer"

orangeride
12-25-2011, 17:17
"FCD is useful to some folks and others hate them."
Bring me up to speed, why is it that some people hate them? I already have the Dillion carbide dies, is there an advantage to using the lee FCD as a crimper only?

SPIN2010
12-25-2011, 17:54
Might help us to see a shot (pict) of one of the same reloaded rounds that are suspect. I might also like to see a close up shot (pict) of the stock barrel (feed in on the chamber).

orangeride
12-25-2011, 18:30
Might help us to see a shot (pict) of one of the same reloaded rounds that are suspect. I might also like to see a close up shot (pict) of the stock barrel (feed in on the chamber).

If things don't clear up tomorrow with the new brass, I'll try and get some pics of exactly what is going on. Like I said before, when it FTF I checked the round and the round under it in the mag and I couldn't see anything obvious that would lead me to believe they wouldn't feed right.

orangeride
12-26-2011, 15:23
Ok guys, all is right with the world! Well, everything's ok in my world. Ran 300 rounds through my gun and 150 through my brothers and their both running awesome. Not a hint of foul play. The fresh brass did the trick. I learned some important things. First the mags are much less tolerant than I first thought. Rounds that really seemed ok, would push left or right and cause a ftf. With the fresh brass even mags that I thought were suspect feed awesome. Second thing I learned, I'm Gona need the lee bulge buster for my brass if I keep shooting in the stock barrel. Thanks for the help guys. Aaron

Ethereal Killer
12-26-2011, 16:05
awesome!!

good thing that lee stuff is very affordable yet surprisingly effective huh?

21Carrier
12-26-2011, 16:24
I'm really surprised by your problems. It really does seem to be that brass was causing the issue, but I've not experienced those sort of problems. Before I got an FCD and Bulge Buster Kit, I reused brass MANY times, and never had feed issues. Oh well, who knows. I can tell you that nowadays I have an FCD and Bulge Buster and I exchange used brass between three guns with VERY different chambers (stock G29, LWD 6" G20LS, Colt Delta Elite). I have ZERO issues, even with brass that's been fired as many as 17 times. Once it's gone through the FCD, it doesn't matter what gun it was fired in.

Get the .40/10mm FCD (which is BY FAR the best way to crimp), and the Bulge Buster Kit. You place the FCD in the crimp die hole in your press. When you have some used, clean brass to resize, you replace the top part and crimping sleeve of the FCD with parts that come in the Bulge Buster kit. Then, you attach the catch can on top of the FCD. There's also a little cylinder that comes with the BBK that pushes the casings through the FCD. Once it's set up, you just set a casing on the little cylinder, and push it up through the FCD. It doesn't take long to FULLY size several hundred cases like that, and it will ensure good feeding. It also sizes even the RIM, so some of the extraction/ejection damage gets cleaned up.

After you're done, you still need to resize as usual. Don't think that the FCD/BBK combo is an alternative to regular resizing. The BBK will reduce size down to about .424", while a regular sizing die will take it down to about .418" or smaller (but stops short of full resizing), and make sure you have adequate neck tension for good bullet security. So, run everything through the Bulge Buster, then proceed as normal. Glad you got it sorted out.

Any Cal.
12-26-2011, 16:45
Awesome info, 21 carrier! I am conisidering getting that setup just for taking care of the bulge on brass if I start running into problems.

Another thing, I don't know any of this from 1st hand experience, but it looks as if there are two related things being referenced.

First is the Factory Crimp die, which is designed to resize a LOADED round. This can and does resize the bullet as well, which is why some don't care for it.

The second is the Bulge Buster, which is used along with a portion of the FCD, and is designed for sizing down the base and rim of BRASS ONLY.

If I have this wrong, please speak up, as may need to order this in the future.

Ethereal Killer
12-26-2011, 18:16
the FCD or factory crimp die is just that... a CRIMP die. It ONLY crimps the bullet into the case and it's probably the best way to crimp rounds hands down.

the second part is the Bulge Buster, which consists of a few parts WHEN USED IN CONJUNCTION WITH THE FCD can remove a bulge from the BASE of a casing where a standard die cannot reach with normal re-sizing.

go to Lee's site and check it out for yourself. worth having for any reloader.

Any Cal.
12-26-2011, 18:48
So according to the LEE site, the FCD crimps as well as sizes loaded rounds. The yellow ring of the diagram is the portion that sizes the loaded round as it is crimped.

http://leeprecision.com/xcart/Lee-Carbide-Factory-Crimp-Die/

Using the Bulge Buster lets you push brass all the way through after you remove the crimp portion of the die.

I would be interested to see what the ID of the sizing portion is. If it is less than .423 or so, then you would be resizing the bullet at the same time if you use the FCD in its entirety.

They claim that you only have to use the bulge buster on the first reloading, but I think that would be the case only if your gun doesn't bulge the brass at all. If it does, then you would be back at square one after the next firing.

The idea of working the brass back to a small dimension, then firing it out of a loose chamber, then working it back down... seems like a quick way to make your brass about worthless. I've had no issues so far with not using it after 3-4 firings in the same gun, but am waiting to see how things continue to play out. Probably a great idea for range brass or when you are planning on shooting brass in more than one gun.

Ethereal Killer
12-26-2011, 20:00
Hmm. I'm more edumacated now!!

I'm so used to the rifle crimp dies that do not size the case that I forgot that the pistol dies were that different. guess I need to pull out my bulge buster kit and check it out again!! :)

I just checked a handful of cases I had de-bulged and fully processed, and they all hovered around .423 +-.001

they got FL sized first then de-bulged last.

Taterhead
12-26-2011, 20:09
Reloading the same brass 6-7 times is a bit unusual IMHO.

Why, exactly? There is no reason that you can't reload straight wall pistol brass until they shrink or show other signs of compromise. For me that is an average of about nine reloads in 10mm. Now for overbore magnum rifle brass, I toss those after five loads.

orangeride
12-26-2011, 20:58
As just a crimper, how does the FCD do a better job than my Dillion crimper?

rcd567
12-26-2011, 22:19
As just a crimper, how does the FCD do a better job than my Dillion crimper?

On your 650, not much because it has a 5 station head. The last station is a crimp die only. Lots of progressive reloaders only use a four station. Three dies and one for the powder. When the seating die is the same as a crimp die, it's doing two things at once. Pushing the bullet into the case and applying a crimp. The 650 has a seperate crimper.

With the Lee, you take the top part off, install another part, and replace your shell holder with a driver. The driver pushes the case or shell all the way through the die effectively reducing the area that is normally held by the shell holder.

That make it clearer?

orangeride
12-26-2011, 22:28
Yep that makes sense to me. I just leave my 650 set up the way it is, and run the bulge buster on my single stage.

21Carrier
12-27-2011, 00:20
Awesome info, 21 carrier! I am conisidering getting that setup just for taking care of the bulge on brass if I start running into problems.

Another thing, I don't know any of this from 1st hand experience, but it looks as if there are two related things being referenced.

First is the Factory Crimp die, which is designed to resize a LOADED round. This can and does resize the bullet as well, which is why some don't care for it.

The second is the Bulge Buster, which is used along with a portion of the FCD, and is designed for sizing down the base and rim of BRASS ONLY.

If I have this wrong, please speak up, as may need to order this in the future.

Correct. The Lee Factory Crimp Die is a combination crimper/final resizer. As you push the loaded but uncrimped round up into the FCD, it applies a final resize to make sure nothing got missed or changed. Basically, it ensures that any round that passes through it will chamber in your gun. Then, as you reach the top of the stroke, it applies a crimp.

The Bulge Buster Kit comes with a sleeve that replaces the floating crimp sleeve in the FCD, a catch can, and a push through cylinder. You remove the adjuster screw from the FCD, remove the crimp sleeve, then install the new sleeve from the BBK. Then, you set the catch can on top of the FCD/BB, put the cylinder under the FCD, and start pushing through unloaded, unsized, clean brass.

So, you use the Bulge Buster first, then everything as usual, finishing with the FCD in place of your regular crimp die. Realize that you MUST have a 4 hole (or 5 hole) press to use the FCD, because it will not seat bullets.

Also, I think it was you that said it sizes the bullet. That's not true. The bullet is .400", the sizing ring is like .425", so it doesn't get close. It sometimes FEELS like it's sizing the bullet, because you can feel the flared mouth of the cartridge offer resistance, but that's just the flare being sized back down, not the bullet getting sized.

As just a crimper, how does the FCD do a better job than my Dillion crimper?

It's not just a crimper, it also fully resizes the loaded round to assure it will chamber. 99.99% of the time that will not be needed, but it may catch that one round that got bulged for whatever reason during loading. Also, the crimp is supposed to be better. Apparently, it is more tolerant of variations in case length. Also, it is much easier to adjust and make a consistent crimp. For instance, if I told you I use a 2/3 turn crimp, and you had an FCD, you could exactly replicate my load. It is very easy to adjust, and very repeatable.

21Carrier
12-27-2011, 00:36
Since pictures make everything better, here are some pictures that will show how it all works. Here is some detail of the Lee Factory Crimp Die:

Fully assembled:
http://i1104.photobucket.com/albums/h329/21Carrier/IMG_2235.jpg

Three parts (left to right): FCD die body, floating crimp sleeve, adjuster screw:
http://i1104.photobucket.com/albums/h329/21Carrier/IMG_2224.jpg

Close-up of bottom of FCD, showing carbide sizing ring:
http://i1104.photobucket.com/albums/h329/21Carrier/IMG_2225.jpg

Crimping sleeve, showing taper-crimp side:
http://i1104.photobucket.com/albums/h329/21Carrier/IMG_2226.jpg

Crimping sleeve inside die body from underneath:
http://i1104.photobucket.com/albums/h329/21Carrier/IMG_2228.jpg

21Carrier
12-27-2011, 00:41
And here are some of the Bulge Buster Kit:

Layout of all parts, with Bulge Buster parts on left, FCD parts on right:
http://i1104.photobucket.com/albums/h329/21Carrier/IMG_2229.jpg

Smooth, Bulge Buster sleeve that replaces the crimping sleeve and adjuster screw in FCD:
http://i1104.photobucket.com/albums/h329/21Carrier/IMG_2231.jpg

Bulge Buster sleeve assembled onto FCD body, notice the push-through cylinder/piston below:
http://i1104.photobucket.com/albums/h329/21Carrier/IMG_2233.jpg

Fully assembled with catch can on top:
http://i1104.photobucket.com/albums/h329/21Carrier/IMG_2234.jpg