Fastest incapacitation 10mm or 45 [Archive] - Glock Talk

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CDW4ME
12-26-2011, 08:46
Two loads with nearly the same recoil:
Hornady 155 XTP 10mm or Winchester Ranger T 230 45.
Same platform Glock 29 SF or 30 SF, keeping this simple. :whistling:

Felt recoil as calculated by power factor (PF) is nearly the same.

Hornady 155 XTP @ 1,278 fps / 562# KE / PF 198 (.88 momentum)
Ranger T 230 @ 874 fps / 390# KE / PF 201 (.89 momentum)

Yes, both would work just great for SD, but...

Which load has the greatest incapacitation potential against a violent, armed, drugged...ect... human attacker, assuming equal shot placement?

eracer
12-26-2011, 08:47
I don't want to get shot anywhere vital with either one.

xtremetj
12-26-2011, 10:03
Subscribing :whistling:

To the OP, I'm not trying to hijack your thread, but I'd like to know how you calculate the PF or is there a website that does it for you?

BigCity
12-26-2011, 10:27
I always though shot placement for incapacitation.

OctoberRust
12-26-2011, 10:30
I don't want to get shot anywhere vital with either one.



I don't want to get shot with a BB gun, doesn't mean I'd use it in self defense. :upeyes:

eracer
12-26-2011, 10:34
I don't want to get shot with a BB gun, doesn't mean I'd use it in self defense. :upeyes:So you wouldn't use a .45 ACP for self defense? I'm trying to understand your response. The thread is about .45 vs. 10mm.

OctoberRust
12-26-2011, 10:46
So you wouldn't use a .45 ACP for self defense? I'm trying to understand your response. The thread is about .45 vs. 10mm.


He's asking WHICH is best. You gave him a blanket/generic statement of "oh I wouldn't want to get shot by either". Answer what one you think is more effective at what he asked. No one WANTS to get shot by either, that is stating the obvious, he asked which is the QUICKEST to incap someone.


If all variables were the same and it was a frontal chest shot, I think I'd go with a medium+fast 10mm projectile.

eracer
12-26-2011, 11:08
He's asking WHICH is best. You gave him a blanket/generic statement of "oh I wouldn't want to get shot by either". Answer what one you think is more effective at what he asked. No one WANTS to get shot by either, that is stating the obvious, he asked which is the QUICKEST to incap someone.


If all variables were the same and it was a frontal chest shot, I think I'd go with a medium+fast 10mm projectile.It's a fool's errand. If you shoot someone center mass with a .45ACP, the bullet will likely do enough damage to incapacitate them very quickly.

If you shoot someone center mass with a 10mm, the bullet will likely do enough damage to incapacitate them very quickly.

Can you quantify 'very quickly?' In one case, 'very quickly' might be faster for the .45 ACP. In another case, it might be the 10mm. Are they incapacitated by blood loss? CNS hit? Either caliber is fully capable of delivering more than enough energy, and making a big enough hole, to incapacitate in either way.

I would not want to get shot by either gun in a vital area. Considering a BB from a kid's gun probably wouldn't break the dermis, must less the pericardium, I think it's a bit foolish to compare it to those two calibers.

I stand by my response.

Redstate
12-26-2011, 11:08
Subscribing :whistling:

To the OP, I'm not trying to hijack your thread, but I'd like to know how you calculate the PF or is there a website that does it for you?

I don't know the significance of power factor other than in USPSA competition. Nevertheless, power factor (PF) is calculated by multiplying velocity by bullet weight and then dividing by 1000. For example, in the OP's post, he has a bullet wieght of 230 grs. He has a velocity of 874 fps. Multiply the two and you get 201,020. Divide by 1,000 and you get a PF of 201.02, rounded to 201.

Jim S.
12-26-2011, 11:43
Either one is fine for self defense.
The trick is choosing one and then becoming proficient enough to place that shot where it needs to go.
There are too many variables in the real world to say this round is better than that round.
A 300 win mag is better than both pistol rounds combined but I doubt you can carry a pistol that shoots it.
Pick one that you like and live with it.

fredj338
12-26-2011, 12:51
Two loads with nearly the same recoil:
Hornady 155 XTP 10mm or Winchester Ranger T 230 45.
Same platform Glock 29 SF or 30 SF, keeping this simple. :whistling:

Felt recoil as calculated by power factor (PF) is nearly the same.

Hornady 155 XTP @ 1,278 fps / 562# KE / PF 198 (.88 momentum)
Ranger T 230 @ 874 fps / 390# KE / PF 201 (.89 momentum)

Yes, both would work just great for SD, but...

Which load has the greatest incapacitation potential against a violent, armed, drugged...ect... human attacker, assuming equal shot placement?

Taking SecDen into consideration, a better comparison would be the 185gr+P in 45acp vs the 10mm/155gr. The problem w/ a155gr 10mm that fast is it's likely to come apart before giving the penetration need for the worst case scenario; big BG, shot though a forearm or shoulder.:dunno: FWIW, PF & recoil only have a vague comparison. You can manipulate PF but not so easily recoil.

CDW4ME
12-26-2011, 13:17
Subscribing :whistling:

To the OP, I'm not trying to hijack your thread, but I'd like to know how you calculate the PF or is there a website that does it for you?

Redstate posted it.

I don't know the significance of power factor other than in USPSA competition. Nevertheless, power factor (PF) is calculated by multiplying velocity by bullet weight and then dividing by 1000. For example, in the OP's post, he has a bullet wieght of 230 grs. He has a velocity of 874 fps. Multiply the two and you get 201,020. Divide by 1,000 and you get a PF of 201.02, rounded to 201.

dpadams6
12-26-2011, 13:32
Taking SecDen into consideration, a better comparison would be the 185gr+P in 45acp vs the 10mm/155gr. The problem w/ a155gr 10mm that fast is it's likely to come apart before giving the penetration need for the worst case scenario; big BG, shot though a forearm or shoulder.:dunno: FWIW, PF & recoil only have a vague comparison. You can manipulate PF but not so easily recoil.

Actually, the 155 hornady 10mm is designed not to come apart. Penetration, i assume, would be more than adequate. Sometimes too much with the hornady xtp's...

cowboy1964
12-26-2011, 14:47
Energy vs. permanent wound cavity size, take your pick. I prefer energy (as long as it's significantly more energy) as I really think there is something to shock value when you get above 500 ft lbs of energy. Yes a bigger hole may bleed out slightly faster but that won't help you for several minutes.

All that said, you have better and more choices with 45 ammo, IMO.

fastbolt
12-26-2011, 14:55
You do realize the stated velocity for the 10mm load being discussed is only approx 70fps faster than a 155gr .40 S&W load (such as the Winchester STHP & the Speer GDHP), right?

Take into consideration the potential for +/- velocity deviations and you're pretty much really trying to compare a lightweight 155gr .40 load to a heavy standard pressure .45 load.

Also, you can't really 'assume equal shot placement' unless you've invested a reasonable amount of time in getting some training to shoot both accurately & effectively, as well as investing the time & money in sufficiently frequent practice to maintain those hard-earned skills.

I'd spend more time developing and working on skillset & mindset than wondering which specific caliber/bullet design/load may reduce the importance of user skill, knowledge, experience & judgment.

If I were just worried about sheer brute FPE & MV, I'd go back to carrying one of my .44 Magnums loaded with lightweight (for caliber), fast loads ... but I got over that many years ago. Nowadays I carry various calibers, bullet weights, loads and bullet designs ... 9, .40, .45, .38 Spl & .357 Magnum ... and worry more about the shooter skills than the rounds.

If I had to choose between what's been listed, I'd go with the standard pressure RA45T 230gr load. Why? Because I've shot a lot of it over the years and have confirmed it feeds and cycles well in my assorted .45's. If I wanted something "hotter" than that, I'd break out the RA45TP 230gr +P loads (current generation of T-Series bullet), which I have on hand because it was an issued load for a short while when they couldn't get any of the standard pressure load shipped to us. I rather prefer the recoil management & controllability of then standard pressure load, though, given my druthers.

On the other hand, more often than not I'm satisfied carrying one or another .40 pistol (instead of one of my larger .45's), usually loaded with a current generation of the 180gr RA40T T-Series or the 180gr Rem GS (non-bonded). I tend to be thinking more about the front sight, grip and trigger press each time I shoot for training, practice or quals instead of which specific load is in the gun at that time. Ditto when carrying.

unit1069
12-26-2011, 19:51
Which load has the greatest incapacitation potential against a violent, armed, drugged...ect... human attacker, assuming equal shot placement?

Shot placement is everything, but I'd recommend a duty caliber weapon for successful self-defense.

A near miss of a vital organ or prime artery with a large caliber handgun fails against a smaller caliber that is perfectly placed.

The question you pose leaves no question that either caliber/cartridge would incapacitate an aggressor with the right shot placement.

That said, I've read that even a perfect heart shot leave an aggressor about 15 seconds of consciousness to inflict deadly consequences. A CNS shot is the only instant incapacitation scenario I've read, and again caliber/cartridge is negligible in these cases.

A perfect shot is what it is; anything less leaves too many variables to yield a definitive answer.

fredj338
12-26-2011, 21:01
Actually, the 155 hornady 10mm is designed not to come apart. Penetration, i assume, would be more than adequate. Sometimes too much with the hornady xtp's...

Not sure where yoiu get that, the XTP is NOT bonded, therfore it can & will come apart, depending on impact vel & what ever it hits. SecDen puts the 155/40 to be a pretty shallow penetrator like a 185gr/45; 138 v 130. Either will hit hard, penetrate about the same & in identical guns the recoil will be sim.:dunno:

CDW4ME
12-26-2011, 22:50
You do realize the stated velocity for the 10mm load being discussed is only approx 70fps faster than a 155gr .40 S&W load (such as the Winchester STHP & the Speer GDHP), right?

Take into consideration the potential for +/- velocity deviations and you're pretty much really trying to compare a lightweight 155gr .40 load to a heavy standard pressure .45 load.


The velocity I stated is an actual chronographed average.

The Glock 29SF would be carried in the same manner as my G27 either appendix IWB or Smartcarry, so I'll give chrono data for that pistol.
G27 Speer GD 155 gr. @ 1,134 fps / 442# KE
G27 Win. Silvertip 155 gr. @ 1,090 fps / 409# KE

The 10mm loading I specified is over 20% more powerful than either of those.

I'm attempting to compare a "standard" 10mm load to a "standard" 45, one of the better 45 loads IMO.

The 185 Remington JHP wouldn't fare as well as the hotter Ranger T.
Remington 185 JHP @ 918 fps / 346# KE


Not sure where yoiu get that, the XTP is NOT bonded, therfore it can & will come apart, depending on impact vel & what ever it hits. SecDen puts the 155/40 to be a pretty shallow penetrator like a 185gr/45; 138 v 130. Either will hit hard, penetrate about the same & in identical guns the recoil will be sim.:dunno:

I shot the 10mm Hornady 155 XTP into water, it held together and made an approximate .68 mushroom, fourth plastic gallon milk jug; that's not shallow penetration.

Point of thread: incapacitation advantage going to well designed slightly larger .45 bullet with 390# KE, or slightly smaller well designed .40 bullet packing 560# ? (an additional 175# KE)

The Ranger T will have a larger recovered diameter at the start and finish, but is that better than 30% more KE when momentum is equivalent?

fastbolt
12-27-2011, 03:12
The Ranger T will have a larger recovered diameter at the start and finish, but is that better than 30% more KE when momentum is equivalent?

Using your bullet weight/velocity & FPE criteria for the 10/155 listed, would you feel the venerable .357 Magnum loaded with 158gr JHP's is something that interests you? Not all that different from the 10mm load you're using as an example. There are considered to be some 'better loads' out there in the medium bore magnum revolver, though.

Of course, the 158gr .357 Magnum loading was considered a 'standard' for many years, until lighter loads developing more velocity & FPE were introduced for LE/defensive purpose.

Are you looking to justify a personal preference for a load which satisfies your desire for more velocity in a mid-range caliber? Suit yourself. It's not like this is particularly new ground. You'll find company and folks who are willing & eager to agree with you no matter which way you go.

Hey, there was a time when I carried a .44 revolver off-duty loaded with 180gr Magnum loads which were rated to produce 1500-1600+ FPS (and I even carried longer barreled revolvers to maximize the realized velocity). I came close to carrying one as an optional/authorized duty weapon (like a number of other cops I knew), but the writing was on the wall about going along with the growing trend of adopting hi-cap 9's (late 80's), so I didn't waste my time.

That was then, and this is now ...

I don't get too wrapped up around the axle about caliber choice anymore, let alone specific loads. Pick something you like. Pick one in a nice color, or with a brand or product line name that tickles your fancy. This is one of those 'informed judgment & decision-making" things. Not a popularity contest (although sometimes it's hard to tell the difference when browsing the internet firearms forums. ;) )

When it comes right down to it, how well can you put rounds on the intended target in demanding circumstances, using whichever caliber or load you like, in your pistol? There's the real question.

Not just while standing upright, well-balanced and comfortable at some nice range, taking as much time as you desire(or are required to take) between shots, etc ... but under demanding conditions? Consider finding a training class with experienced trainers able to conduct their training in a safe manner, and see how well you do against your preconceptions, as well as against other students of varying experience, motivation, training, etc.

FWIW, I've had occasion to watch a few folks qualifying with 10mm guns (1911's & Glocks). They pretty much were slower (and no more accurate) than when they were shooting other guns/calibers during the qual sessions (when they shot more than one gun/caliber), or when compared against other folks shooting alongside them (using an assortment of other commonly used center fire handgun calibers). Might be something for any particular shooter to consider ...

How about during a real-life dynamic situation which may be rapidly changing, chaotic and causing all the unpleasant effects associated with the fear-induced hormonal response? When startled, or otherwise distracted, injured, or only able (for whatever reason) to use 1 hand?

If one or the other calibers/loads gives you an advantage in recoil management, controllability and consistent accuracy? Well, that's your decision to make ...

I remember when I was a young cop (and before I became a firearms instructor) I used to feel somewhat reluctant to carry anything in my first S&W M36 3" if I read in some magazine that the velocity & muzzle energy was less than another load. How about less than 300 FPE?!?!? :shocked: Maybe only in the 200's of FPE!?! :faint:

Fast forward toward the end of my career, and I can't remember the last time I even bothered to look for the FPE figures of some of the newer +P loads I typically carry in my J's. I can tell you some of the velocities that have been demonstrated in actual snubs during various hosted gel "test" events, and even the penetration & expansion (if any) results. Just not the FPE "calculations".

FPE just isn't one of the things that's high on my list of critical factors used in the selection of my off-duty/retirement CCW ammunition.

That's me, though.

Luck in your choice.

CDW4ME
12-27-2011, 08:28
Using your bullet weight/velocity & FPE criteria for the 10/155 listed, would you feel the venerable .357 Magnum loaded with 158gr JHP's is something that interests you? Not all that different from the 10mm load you're using as an example. There are considered to be some 'better loads' out there in the medium bore magnum revolver, though.

Of course, the 158gr .357 Magnum loading was considered a 'standard' for many years, until lighter loads developing more velocity & FPE were introduced for LE/defensive purpose.

Are you looking to justify a personal preference for a load which satisfies your desire for more velocity in a mid-range caliber? Suit yourself. It's not like this is particularly new ground.

FPE just isn't one of the things that's high on my list of critical factors used in the selection of my off-duty/retirement CCW ammunition.

That's me, though.

Luck in your choice.

Although I appreciate people's comments about practice, I attempted to set the parameters where the pistols were equal and would have equalivalent recoil with the specified loads, removing recoil control from the picture.

The part in bold leads me to believe you would prefer the 45.

When I was a police officer over 19 years ago, I carried a Glock 21 loaded with Remington 185 JHP +P (department issue) and shot it well (if I elaborated it would sound like bragging). I only did that job for a couple of years. If I had continued, I would have be able to retire in 5 months, able and affordable are two different things. The next career I selected has left me with 10 years & 6 months before retirement is a possibility.

I sometimes use a shot timer and it led me to weed the Kahr and XD pistols from my selection; their shot times (with accuracy requirement) were not up to par with 1911's and Glocks in my hands. If I went solely on split times then I would carry a Glock 19, but I might be willing to concede a potential .15 of a second for a more powerful round.

I have owned a Glock 36 three different times and eventually sold each one all three times; I think I have figured out that that pistol just doesn't do it for me. :embarassed:

I have had two Glock 30's, one regular and one SF, again I sold both for one reason or another.

So you see, this thread is a hypothetical choice, not actual. :quiet:

In reality the choice would be whether I'm going to carry strong side IWB or appendix or Smartcarry.

If I'm going with strong side IWB, I'll either have a Dan Wesson Valor or Ed Brown Special Forces; the Valor loaded with Ranger T, whereas the Special Forces would have a 185 XTP because the Brown shoots a little closer to my POA with a lighter bullet. POA & POI matching is more important to me than slight differences in potential effectiveness.

Appendix or SmartCarry is either a Glock 27, EMP 40 or the 29SF; there is reallly no debate as to which of these would be more effective.

Caliber Corner seems (seemed) like the place for a caliber debate.
Generally I think bigger is better, 40 S&W better than 9mm and 45 better than 40 S&W based on incapacitation ability alone.

I have all three of the "Stopping Power" books, but this doesn't imply that I agree with all of it (I do not think the 32 Silvertip would be as effective as 45 ball).

To answer the which .357 load I would take, the 125 JHP over the 158 if those were my choices for protection against human attack. However the .357 Mag (which is really a .355 bullet) would not be my preference over a full power 10mm. I would not take the revolver over a semiauto; and their energy levels are nearly the same, but the 40 has a bigger bullet.

Now back to my attempted caliber debate. I might carry the Glock 29 SF or the full size 1911 (KE levels with the 5'' 1911 are in the 430# range) if I want to utilize appendix IWB instead of strong side IWB, this largely depende on clothing and if I'm going to have to take the pistol off, much easier to take the clip-on kydex holster off that I use for appendix carry.

Now since this is not a debate about which method of carry I'm going to use, I'll again attempt to redirect to the topic at hand.

I know they are both going to be effective, about as good as one could get from a pistol that can be carried concealed; but, which would have the edge in incapacitation 45 acp with a premium 230 JHP or the full power 10mm with a 155 gr. ?

I'll assume fastbolt gives the edge to the 45. :wavey:

JBL13
12-27-2011, 10:52
The 10mm wins because it reaches the target first. Everything else in this comparison is academic. Next? :)

fastbolt
12-27-2011, 12:42
The 10mm wins because it reaches the target first. Everything else in this comparison is academic. Next? :)

Hey, I liked that. :rofl:




The part in bold leads me to believe you would prefer the 45.

I'll assume fastbolt gives the edge to the 45. :wavey:

Only if you're going to restrict the caliber/ammo choice to those 2 specific loads. I have nothing against a well designed .40 bullet for defensive purpose, combined with a good bullet weight & the appropriate velocity. ;)

Also, mostly because of the way the T-Series bullet has been revised, fine-tuned and continually tweaked for the sole purpose, in the Ranger LE line, of being a defensive load. The XTP hasn't received quite the same attention (and widespread acceptance & usage in that role, allowing for some experience useful for evaluating it), or acceptance and usage among LE/Gov users, so it's not like there's a lot of experience in that regard.

Now that you've put the thread 'back on track', are you expecting a quorum of 10mm enthusiasts or .45 enthusiasts to give you the answer (or validation) you're expecting? Why would it matter what everyone else thought, though?

Which do you feel would be the "better" defensive handgun cartridge, and why? Are you hoping the velocity/FPE calculations overcome the light bullet weight, SD and older (hunting) bullet design characteristics?

BTW, your daily activities must be a bit different than mine if at least 2 of your chosen carry methods are going to be considered comfortable with larger weapons. ;) That's the primary reason I eventually went to carrying a number of smallish 9's, .38's, .357's & .40's, mostly leaving my .45's in the safe, but even so, my carry methods wouldn't be found among your choices. It can be interesting to hear how carry methods & choices evolve among other folks who lawfully carry concealed weapons, though, huh?

CDW4ME
12-27-2011, 13:59
Hey, I liked that. :rofl:





Only if you're going to restrict the caliber/ammo choice to those 2 specific loads. I have nothing against a well designed .40 bullet for defensive purpose, combined with a good bullet weight & the appropriate velocity. ;)

Also, mostly because of the way the T-Series bullet has been revised, fine-tuned and continually tweaked for the sole purpose, in the Ranger LE line, of being a defensive load. The XTP hasn't received quite the same attention (and widespread acceptance & usage in that role, allowing for some experience useful for evaluating it), or acceptance and usage among LE/Gov users, so it's not like there's a lot of experience in that regard.

Now that you've put the thread 'back on track', are you expecting a quorum of 10mm enthusiasts or .45 enthusiasts to give you the answer (or validation) you're expecting? Why would it matter what everyone else thought, though?

Which do you feel would be the "better" defensive handgun cartridge, and why? Are you hoping the velocity/FPE calculations overcome the light bullet weight, SD and older (hunting) bullet design characteristics?


I could easily conceal that Glock 27 all the time, except....(won't elaborate). :zipmouth:

Let's say that the carry options I mentioned are for me leaving my house and going to to grocery or shopping on the weekend. :angel:

I'm thinking discussion is one of the reasons folks are on a discussion board / forum.
Caliber corner being an appropriate place for ____caliber vs ____ .
Yea, I guess I thought folks would say I'd pick this or that because of ______ or ______. :dunno:

Seemed simple enough, pretty close match.

Oh well. :arg:

CDW4ME
12-27-2011, 14:07
The 10mm wins because it reaches the target first. Everything else in this comparison is academic. Next? :)

:laughabove:


:headscratch:

21 feet / 874 = .024 sec
21 feet / 1,278 = .016 sec

He is right, that's a .08 sec advantage. :nailbiting:

fastbolt
12-27-2011, 14:25
Hey, your last post made me chuckle ... and in a good way. I needed that. We shouldn't take ourselves too seriously right? :)

Yeah, some time & experience in the Caliber Corner sub forum ought to temper expectations of results when it comes to many perennial topics, I'd think. :whistling: :rofl:

I still think that if you have a personal preference for one or the other caliber/load, especially when it comes to specific pistol platform/model, you ought to go with what's shown itself to work for you. When it comes to the wide field of low-powered defensive handgun calibers (which covers most everything, really, when you look at them still being handguns), I'd think the most important factor is always going to be the shooter's familiarity with the chosen platform, and their skillset & mindset.

If you've found yourself in a situation where both potential choices are equally useful for you, take a look at the broader picture and go with what works for all practical considerations. How much of either caliber & specific load ammo can you obtain with the least effort, and at a reasonable price which allows for a good amount of practice, test-fire confirmation of QC for different productions lots (as you replenish you ammo stores), as well as functioning in your guns ... that sort of thing.

Go with both and see how they work out over time.

It's just a handgun.

Kind of like listening to owners & enthusiasts of the Chevy Corvair argue over which engine option was 'best', or most powerful. While they may enjoy splitting hairs and arguing subtle nuances, it's still just a Corvair at the end of the day.

Suit yourself. You only have to make yourself happy and satisfied with your choice.

Hell, I still like to carry revolvers much of the time, for crying out loud, and loaded with +P, at that. Sure, it raises eyebrows among a lot of younger cops when I use my 5-shot snubs to clear a duty weapon course-of-fire (yes reloading is a bit slower and certainly more frequent), and take them out to 50 yards and get hits on steel that they can miss at 11 yards, but that's why we invest in time & practice, right?

Pick what you like. Keep up your work on the equipment user. ;)

NG VI
12-27-2011, 15:54
I'd pick the Ranger-T over the XTP any day of the week for defense against humans. If you are going places where there are feral pigs as well as the always unquantifiable human aggressors, the XTP starts to look a lot better.

Glolt20-91
12-27-2011, 16:04
In service calibers, higher kinetic energy numbers don't incapacitate faster than lower KE numbers; in fact, there are too many unknown variables to predict when a felon will be unable to continue the fight or choose to disengage.

Given the two original choices and provided that both JHPs expand, the RA45T will create a larger crush cavity than the XTP design.

Spiffums
12-27-2011, 18:14
Baby Grand dropped for 3 stories up will incapacitate you quicker than a burrito with extra sauce.

There is no such thing as a one shot stop...... not everyone falls down dead because you shot them in the hand.

Roering
12-27-2011, 18:24
A 45 will do the job better than a 10mm because it sounds cooler and the metric system is for sissies and commies.

Yeah, I know that's hardly a reason but it is just as good as all the data and crap that will get posted.

purrrfect 10
12-27-2011, 18:42
The 10mm wins because it reaches the target first. Everything else in this comparison is academic. Next? :)

I agree 10 mm all the way. Not sure why we are comparing which bullet? I train / practice and should I ever get into a life or death situation, I will not wait to see if one shot does the trick. So me thinks this comparison is moot.

Officer: why did you shoot him so many times?

answer: I left my spare magazine home 16 rounds was all I had :dunno:

jw38
12-27-2011, 18:55
Which ever you happen to have when shtf will be perfectly OK. I don't think anyone shot in the right eye with either 10mm or 45 could tell any difference.

CDW4ME
12-27-2011, 18:59
In service calibers, higher kinetic energy numbers don't incapacitate faster than lower KE numbers; in fact, there are too many unknown variables to predict when a felon will be unable to continue the fight or choose to disengage.

Given the two original choices and provided that both JHPs expand, the RA45T will create a larger crush cavity than the XTP design.

Another person picks the 45, larger permenant cavity.

A 45 will do the job better than a 10mm because it sounds cooler and the metric system is for sissies and commies.

Yeah, I know that's hardly a reason but it is just as good as all the data and crap that will get posted.

Additional respondent picks 45 due to preference for english system of measurement, and sound observation based on previous forum experience.

NG VI
12-27-2011, 19:38
The Ranger T will have a larger recovered diameter at the start and finish, but is that better than 30% more KE when momentum is equivalent?


Ranger-T is more than 30% better designed for "that guy's trying to kill me and others nearby" situations than the XTP is.

XTPs are great bullets, very accurate, penetrate very well, not too costly as a component, but they are essentially a hunting bullet, even in the service calibers, unlike Speer's separate human-animal Gold Dots.

Black Smoke Trail
12-27-2011, 20:59
I use both and I would be in the camp for the 10mm with a minimum wieght 180 grain hollow point round due to its much greater penetration ability and mulitiple use application for human as well as wild game in which case I would stagger magazine with 200 grain maybe slightly heavier hard cast lead if you use an after market barrel or jacketed with the OEM Glock barrel.

Buffalo Bore makes some real nice 220 grain hard cast 10mm ammo as well as 180 grain HP along with XTP ammo for those who don't reload.

Glolt20-91
12-28-2011, 16:03
Another person picks the 45, larger permenant cavity.



Additional respondent picks 45 due to preference for english system of measurement, and sound observation based on previous forum experience.

Wrong, I made it very clear that there is no way to predict incapacitation times.

DocKWL
12-28-2011, 17:07
Wrong, I made it very clear that there is no way to predict incapacitation times.

This statement should be made permanent under the title "Caliber Corner".

I will write it again:

Whether man or beast, there is no way to predict incapacitation times.

fastbolt
12-28-2011, 17:46
Wrong, I made it very clear that there is no way to predict incapacitation times.

Absolutely. ;)

I sort of thought that was pretty obvious, considering we can't "predict" such things even when rifles & shotguns are involved, and was instead directing more of my attention to the shooter-doing-their-job aspect of it ...

While the subject of what's considered reasonable in the way of a threat being unable to continue volitional threatening actions, and how quickly that might occur, have been considered and much discussed among LE/Gov circles for some years ... I sort of suspect that most non-LE folks not familiar with LE/Gov experience, perspectives and expectations might be unsatisfied with how things often occur and proceed in the real world.

It's just a handgun.

The physiological and psychological factors influencing this sort of event are just too unpredictable.

CDW4ME
12-28-2011, 18:34
Ranger-T is more than 30% better designed for "that guy's trying to kill me and others nearby" situations than the XTP is.

XTPs are great bullets, very accurate, penetrate very well, not too costly as a component, but they are essentially a hunting bullet, even in the service calibers, unlike Speer's separate human-animal Gold Dots.

I recovered a 165 gr. 40 S&W Ranger T shot into water from a 3'' EMP, the bullet measure from .80 - .90 including the talons (using old terminology).

You mention the XTP being a hunting bullet, I know it's a controlled expansion design and was made to pass FBI protocol which favored deep penetration.

Speaking of hunting, the consensus seems to be that the 10mm is better for whitetail deer than the 45 acp.

I've not killed any deer with a pistol, but I've bow killed two dozen (not an exaggeration).

Wrong, I made it very clear that there is no way to predict incapacitation times.

I did not say you did, your reply to my thread gave me the impression that you favored the 45 given the choices listed, nothing more.

NG VI
12-28-2011, 21:04
Yeah, it is offered in calibers nobody with a choice would use for hunting, but it's built to be tough, stay together, penetrate noticeably deeper than other defensive offerings, and expansion is kind of an afterthought for the XTP. You get some, you can depend on it to expand quite reliably, but there just isn't as much of it because of the focus on penetration, just like a good hunting bullet.

Even the 115 grain 9mm loads made it past 16" in all the tests I remember seeing it in, and that might be the caliber/weight combo with the reputation for the least penetration.

Pretty much every duty and defense-intended bullet released over the last twenty years have been made with the FBI protocol as their mission statement, and they can all be counted on to penetrate adequately for almost any shot you can land on a person. The exceptions would be the bullets designed specifically to offer very low penetration, and I have heard that the Critical Defense is designed to penetrate a bit less than the FBI would like, at least in some calibers.

I don't know if that's true, I haven't seen any tests on it, but the Critical Duty is being released in 9mm with a 135 grain bullet instead of a 115 like the Critical Defense, which to me seems like the route you would take if you wanted to modify your new light penetration personal defense bullet to meet law enforcement performance standards.

10mm does better than .45 at hunting midsize game like pigs and deer because loaded with a bullet of equal sectional density, a fullpower 10mm can safely push it's projectile much faster than the .45 ACP, and it can be loaded with the really heavy 200-220/230 grain bullets and still be running as fast as a hot 230 grain .45, maybe even faster.

I've never owned a 10mm, but a few of the people who come to the caliber corner frequently have done an awful lot with them, and will hopefully point out any mistakes I've made. I think I've got the basics down pretty well though.

English
12-29-2011, 06:39
This statement should be made permanent under the title "Caliber Corner".

I will write it again:

Whether man or beast, there is no way to predict incapacitation times.

can you point us to anyone, anywhere, any time, who has suggested that there is?

English

DocKWL
12-29-2011, 09:29
can you point us to anyone, anywhere, any time, who has suggested that there is?
i
English

1. Yourself

2. Dr. Courtney

3. M & S

4. This thread starter is looking for an answer.

5. All of the energy dump theorists who look to the TSC as a means to rapid incapacitation...

English
12-29-2011, 09:51
1. Yourself

2. Dr. Courtney

3. M & S

4. This thread starter is looking for an answer.

5. All of the energy dump theorists who look to the TSC as a means to rapid incapacitation...

I am reassured to see that you are talking rubbish as usual.

None of the three mentioned have ever done more than talk averages for some number of trials and I am far from sure that M&S did even that since their concern and data were entirely about one shot stops. From past experience I can understand that you do not know the difference between giving an average of some past events and giving a prediction for a future event.

You might note that relative to (4), your answer takes the thread starter no further forwards.

Where "energy dump theorists" came in I don't know exccept that you can never resist introducing a straw man, and there is no point discussing energy with someone as scientifically illiterate as you.

English

DocKWL
12-29-2011, 14:09
I am reassured to see that you are talking rubbish as usual.

None of the three mentioned have ever done more than talk averages for some number of trials and I am far from sure that M&S did even that since their concern and data were entirely about one shot stops. From past experience I can understand that you do not know the difference between giving an average of some past events and giving a prediction for a future event.

You might note that relative to (4), your answer takes the thread starter no further forwards.

Where "energy dump theorists" came in I don't know exccept that you can never resist introducing a straw man, and there is no point discussing energy with someone as scientifically illiterate as you.

English

Santa fill your stocking with coal again this year?

You asked. I answered. You can not deny my answers so you went on one of your typical temper tantrums.