Vulnerability of the 10mm's Offspring: the 40s&w [Archive] - Glock Talk

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ModGlock17
12-27-2011, 10:02
http://greent.com/40Page/ammo/40/180gr.htm

After reading the above article and its posted data, I've new appreciation for how tolerant and stable the 10mm is.

Look at the 40s&w pressure data showing how pressure change in just 10mils of bullet set back, using 180gr bullet. Wow! And people are still buying them up without knowing that they are more vulnerable to KBs than other bullet weights.

Also here is some interest info for those who'd shoot 40s&w in 10mm chambers.
http://www.thegunzone.com/10v40.html

I'm posting this for the benefit of new comers to the Big 10.

MightyTygart
12-27-2011, 11:05
Thanks for the info!

Kegs
12-27-2011, 16:32
****EDUCATE YOURSELF BY READING THE FOLLOWING AT YOUR OWN EXPENSE AND RISK!******

.40 has the stronger case.
.40 has the stronger case.
.40 has the stronger case.

Don't believe everything you read!

but what I wrote above 3 times is 100% fact.

KBs are a function of firearm design, not case cartridge design. The case will contain the explosion if the barrel will contain the case - all of it beyond the web - not just part of it...

That author doesn't know what the hell he's talking about.

His argument is extremely weak and his entire premise is incorrect through inexperience and 100% assumption based on bull5hit. Typical.

It aggravates me because I know this very subject a whole lot better than other "by the book" folks. It's amazing how much further real world testing gets you than following someone else's directions - but, of course no reward without risk!

Those who have actually tested the case under real world pressure tests have confirmed that the .40 s&w case will handle FAR greater pressures than the 10mm could.

I learned this in my extensive research regarding the calibers.

I can write it all day long and nobody believes me, but it is absolutely true you can load a .40 s&w to .44 magnum velocities (and way more than .44 magnum SAAMI pressure figures) and the .40 case will handle it. The 10mm case will not handle that pressure because the larger primer pocket on the 10mm case is a flaw in the amount of pressure it will really handle.

It's only short and weak because it's not loaded to its true potential (and production firearms aren't designed to handle its full potential either - and most people don't want to shoot ones that are since there is a ridiculous amount of recoil associated with it).

Personally, I have only loaded the 40 s&w to a mild power of 200gr. xtps to the mid 1000s fps. I only stopped testing because my conversion barrel is a federal arms barrel and thus not supported all that well.

It frustrates me that misinformed writers keep spewing garbage, but the readers keep buying it...such is the world I live in.

As for shooting .40S&W rounds in a 10mm chambered gun, well that is just plain idiotic, but its worth reading for newbs, so its good you posted it.

_The_Shadow
12-27-2011, 20:02
I have to agree about the barrel/chamber is the key to full potential...the semiauto older or modern pushing for smaller package for the cartridge use and reliable feeding with a moving slide is where the issues start. A good example of this is the amount of support being use of the 40S&W conversion barrel from the 10mm pistols due to the longer stroke of the slide with the short ammo. The ammo can feed easily with total case support.

Given the rounds being used in something like the T/C with a totally closed chamber would make for different cartridge potential altogether...

blastfact
12-27-2011, 20:15
Hince the folks always looking for 10mm brass with the small primer hole. :)

Any Cal.
12-27-2011, 20:43
I don't really have a dog in the fight, but 2 questions.

Can the 40 be considered the stronger case if the web is shorter? (Wouldn't it only be the stronger case if it had full case support, at which point it is simply a matter of which primer holds more pressure?)

In a Glock, why would it be bad to fire .40 in a 10mm, since the case never headspaces on the mouth and the case holds the bullet in position until it is far past the edge of the chamber? (What would be the difference between firing .40s loaded to 1.250 and 10mm loaded to 1.250, with both headspacing on the extractor?)

dvrdwn72
12-27-2011, 20:59
I don't know, but I was told using titegroup powder in a .40 glock would cause it to blow up? What about in a 10mm? :whistling:

SPIN2010
12-27-2011, 21:31
Man! This thread got me so worked up I had to reload about 500 (.40S&W) 180gr rounds to calm down. :supergrin:

I would have reloaded 10mm but I did not want to change out my 550 small primer bar ... maybe tomorrow. :dunno:

Jitterbug
12-28-2011, 09:01
Google for .40 caliber threads and a guy named Clark (sp) he's done some interesting things with a .40, he maintains that with the small primer pocket it's the stronger case.

Here is one thread...

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=50011

Just in case anyone gets any idea's I HIGHLY recommend listening to what Wil Terry had to say about this experiment.

SDGlock23
12-28-2011, 09:13
I have heard over the years that the .40 has a stronger case and that's very well possible. I have some small primer pocket 10mm brass too, just never messed with it since I only have less than 100pcs of it.

With proper chamber support the .40 is capable of quite a bit, as I have messed with some "warm" .40's and they're the real deal. Mass production of .40 cal ammo and older less supportive chambers still out there will lead to problems from time to time.

Not really sure when that article was written, but 180's I think are still far and away the most popular and there's nothing wrong with using 180's and thinking 180's are a bit too much for the .40 is nonsense. Even 200gr pills can do pretty well from the .40 S&W.

Kegs
12-28-2011, 09:36
Bingo. Clark Magnuson is the man! An engineer who actually went to the length to test these things until failure.

Lots of guys will yap and yap and yap based on what they've read written by people who write fully based on assumption, so the assumption gets carried into the shooting community and its all based on b.s. There are at least 3-4 avid glocktalk members that keep pushing the rhetoric around and it turns into a big flame war by the end of the "discussion". Thankfully, most of these folks are not in the 10 ring.

Very few guys actually test the theories. Clark did. What did he discover? 82% overload on the 10mm is too much. 146% overload on the .40 is okay.

conclusion:

NOTE: DO NOT EVEN ATTEMPT IN YOUR GUN!!!!

14.2 gr. 800x behind a 200gr. speer was too much for a 10mm cartridge.
15.5 gr. 800x behind a 200gr. speer was okay for a .40 s&w cartridge.

15.5 gr. 800x behind a 200 gr. speer is a max book load for the .44 magnum.

NOTE: DO NOT EVEN ATTEMPT IN YOUR GUN!!!!

Clark's G22 was highly modified, including a double recoil spring somewhere in the neighborhood of 48# resistance IIRC, (recall that the stoutest spring commercially available for full size glocks is in the mid 20#) and the otherwise stock glock g22 barrel on his gun was heliarched around the chamber to ensure 100% case support.


Google for .40 caliber threads and a guy named Clark (sp) he's done some interesting things with a .40, he maintains that with the small primer pocket it's the stronger case.

Here is one thread...

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=50011

Just in case anyone gets any idea's I HIGHLY recommend listening to what Wil Terry had to say about this experiment.

Who is Wil Terry? Oh yeah, another go by the SAAMI book #s without doing any testing. I.E. not worth paying attention to.

Kegs
12-28-2011, 09:51
double post - ignore.

Kegs
12-28-2011, 10:00
I don't really have a dog in the fight, but 2 questions.

Can the 40 be considered the stronger case if the web is shorter? (Wouldn't it only be the stronger case if it had full case support, at which point it is simply a matter of which primer holds more pressure?)

Depends on the remainder of the parameters. Have a look at the cases I cut open and polished and photographed for yourself, but yes .40 S&W is the stronger case due to the larger amount of case web material between the primer pocket hole and the rim (no replacement for displacement):

http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h235/Radsport2er/sandwvs10.jpg

In a Glock, why would it be bad to fire .40 in a 10mm, since the case never headspaces on the mouth and the case holds the bullet in position until it is far past the edge of the chamber? (What would be the difference between firing .40s loaded to 1.250 and 10mm loaded to 1.250, with both headspacing on the extractor?)The case DOES headspace on the mouth of the cartridge in both the 40 and the 10. The 10 is a deeper chamber and thus the .40 case mouth would not meet up with the part of the barrel on which it headspaces to, thus the brass wouldn't be stable in the chamber and when fired, it would put all the pressure to and fro on the rim of the case, which it is not designed for.

Would it blow up on you? Possibly, but unlikely.
Would it be accurate? Most definitely not.
Is it a good idea to do? No.

rcd567
12-28-2011, 10:14
http://i80.photobucket.com/albums/j163/rcd567/fingerless.jpg

Glock grenade or should I say Glock 22, 40 cal.:wow:

And no, I don't know if that's what actually happened to this poor fella. Just got it and the story off the internet.:dunno::faint:

_The_Shadow
12-28-2011, 10:23
I would suggest some of you take 10mm and 40S& casings (can be older smiled) and using a dremel tool cut them in half length wise to observe the actual internal shape and contours...You maybe in for a supprise to see the differences for different manufactures.

I see KEGS posted an example while I was typing! Way to go Kegs!

The manufactures don't really make brass casings to be reloaded, they either make them or have them sub contracted to their specifications. Now consider todays ecconomy and raw material prices...CCI's aluminum casings, Hornady's steel casings these are considered one time use. Both of these are in the buisness of selling reloading products in addition to ammunition line.

Kegs
12-28-2011, 10:45
Yep, and all cases are not created equally either.

Different manufacturers and different lots could be different build quality.

Buyer (or loader) beware!

Kegs
12-28-2011, 10:47
:upeyes: IF you don't know what happened to him, why bother posting the pic? To add to the fear drama?

Yeah, reloading is dangerous. Duh.

If you're scared, stand back and pull a string behind a barrier. :tongueout:


http://i80.photobucket.com/albums/j163/rcd567/fingerless.jpg

Glock grenade or should I say Glock 22, 40 cal.:wow:

And no, I don't know if that's what actually happened to this poor fella. Just got it and the story off the internet.:dunno::faint:

blk69stang
12-28-2011, 10:55
In a Glock, why would it be bad to fire .40 in a 10mm, since the case never headspaces on the mouth and the case holds the bullet in position until it is far past the edge of the chamber? (What would be the difference between firing .40s loaded to 1.250 and 10mm loaded to 1.250, with both headspacing on the extractor?)

Yes, it would be bad...

Because .40 and 10mm DO NOT HEADSPACE ON THE EXTRACTOR. They both HEADSPACE ON THE CASE MOUTH.

I don't know where you got that idea that they headspace off the extractor, but it's crazy.

The reason the .40 in a 10mm Glock is a bad idea is illustrated in the link the OP posted; it's possible the firing pin striking the primer of the .40 could push it past the extractor deeper into the 10mm chamber, with the cartridge lighting off with no "breech face" support on the base of the cartridge case. Primer blows out, flame cutting of parts, metals suffer pastic deformation. Click the link in the OP.

Any Cal.
12-28-2011, 13:50
Depends on the remainder of the parameters. Have a look at the cases I cut open and polished and photographed for yourself, but yes .40 S&W is the stronger case due to the larger amount of case web material between the primer pocket hole and the rim (no replacement for displacement):

http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h235/Radsport2er/sandwvs10.jpg

The case DOES headspace on the mouth of the cartridge in both the 40 and the 10. The 10 is a deeper chamber and thus the .40 case mouth would not meet up with the part of the barrel on which it headspaces to, thus the brass wouldn't be stable in the chamber and when fired, it would put all the pressure to and fro on the rim of the case, which it is not designed for.

Would it blow up on you? Possibly, but unlikely.
Would it be accurate? Most definitely not.
Is it a good idea to do? No.

Thanks for posting that! I was going to go cut both cases in half just to see for myself, you saved me some trouble. That .40 pretty much looks beefier all over the head.

I just measured a G20, and the case can headspace on the case mouth until it is about .970" long it that gun, I haven't measured anything else. So shooting a .40 case means that the round will headspace on the extractor, leaving it .142" short. On a bullet with over .142" in the case, the only issue is that the extractor is absorbing the hit of the firing pin, rather than the case mouth. If the extractor can't take it, it will break and the round will fall into the chamber. If the extractor doesn't break, there is no issue. If the round feeds in front of the extractor, the firing pin cannot hit it, so nothing happens. This would be the case in a Glock 20, I can't speak for anything else.

Any Cal.
12-28-2011, 13:59
Yes, it would be bad...

Because .40 and 10mm DO NOT HEADSPACE ON THE EXTRACTOR. They both HEADSPACE ON THE CASE MOUTH.

I don't know where you got that idea that they headspace off the extractor, but it's crazy.

The reason the .40 in a 10mm Glock is a bad idea is illustrated in the link the OP posted; it's possible the firing pin striking the primer of the .40 could push it past the extractor deeper into the 10mm chamber, with the cartridge lighting off with no "breech face" support on the base of the cartridge case. Primer blows out, flame cutting of parts, metals suffer pastic deformation. Click the link in the OP.

I know they are supposed to headspace on the casemouth, but wasn't sure how long they would continue to as you used various lengths of brass. I just measured a G20, and in that gun it looks like they would continue to headspace on the case mouth for all intents and purposes unless you managed to get brass .020" or so short.

I read that link while ago, and wasn't impressed. If the extractor can hold the case enough to let it fire, it isn't likely to let it slip past. If the case can slip past the extractor, then it isn't likely to provide enough resistance to the firing pin hit to let the round fire. That would be an amazing feat to get an extractor to hold the round enough to let it fire, and then let go of the case and let it fall into the chamber, while not allowing it to return to the breechface on firing.

Jitterbug
12-28-2011, 18:05
Who is Wil Terry? Oh yeah, another go by the SAAMI book #s without doing any testing. I.E. not worth paying attention to.

I don't know who Wil Terry is, but in the link I provided he claimed to have pressure tested 10mm loads.

"I have pressure tested a bunch of the top end 800-X loads " published " on the net and to the last last one they were all ABOVE SAAMI specification pressure limits. Some of these loads are downright scary, guys."

Further on in the thread it's suggested that folks might do a bit of research to find out who he is...the implication being he might be somebody that knows what he's talking about.

So...I Googled a little bit.

What I found out.

It appears that he might be from the Black Hills, South Dakota and it appears that he's held in high regard on many different gun boards.

Claims to have been reloading for over 50 years and over 850,000 rounds of ammo.

Does he know what he's talking about? Maybe, maybe not.

I guess we all make our own decisions....

Man, that must really suck loosing a trigger finger like that.

Taterhead
12-28-2011, 19:00
Bingo. Clark Magnuson is the man! An engineer who actually went to the length to test these things until failure.

Lots of guys will yap and yap and yap based on what they've read written by people who write fully based on assumption, so the assumption gets carried into the shooting community and its all based on b.s. There are at least 3-4 avid glocktalk members that keep pushing the rhetoric around and it turns into a big flame war by the end of the "discussion". Thankfully, most of these folks are not in the 10 ring.

Very few guys actually test the theories. Clark did. What did he discover? 82% overload on the 10mm is too much. 146% overload on the .40 is okay.

conclusion:

NOTE: DO NOT EVEN ATTEMPT IN YOUR GUN!!!!

14.2 gr. 800x behind a 200gr. speer was too much for a 10mm cartridge.
15.5 gr. 800x behind a 200gr. speer was okay for a .40 s&w cartridge.

15.5 gr. 800x behind a 200 gr. speer is a max book load for the .44 magnum.

NOTE: DO NOT EVEN ATTEMPT IN YOUR GUN!!!!

Clark's G22 was highly modified, including a double recoil spring somewhere in the neighborhood of 48# resistance IIRC, (recall that the stoutest spring commercially available for full size glocks is in the mid 20#) and the otherwise stock glock g22 barrel on his gun was heliarched around the chamber to ensure 100% case support.




Who is Wil Terry? Oh yeah, another go by the SAAMI book #s without doing any testing. I.E. not worth paying attention to.

I have read a lot of Clark's posts over the years, mostly for amusement because there is virtually no practical implication to his arguments. I have also carefully considered the rebuttals to his conclusions from experts (I don't have time to look for links right now but may later if I am in the mood). How many of us are surprised to learn that you can get ridiculous over charges if you modify your combat pistol such that it is a virtual bolt action chamber? Just so that you can prove that one cartridge has a stronger primer pocket than another? Again, what is the practical consideration here?

With all due respect, the recommendations from engineers who design, test, and develop firearms and components are not to be cast aside. SAAMI pressure assignments are not trivial matters to be relegated to sissies who don't know better than to heli-arc their chambers and install 48# springs. The fact is that if one stays within the operating range of a 10mm auto, he'll end up with a very useful platform. In other words the 10mm is great as it was designed to function by engineers who designed them. By the way, those engineers gave the 10mm a higher MAP assignment than the 40. Suppose Clark is 100% correct in every way; I still do not want to have rifle-type pressures in my autoloading pistol.



I do agree with you completely about not shooting 40 in a 10mm chamber.

DWARREN123
12-28-2011, 20:50
Never had a problem with either (G22&G20) and I reload some over max. Do not get silly and try to reload to hand cannon specs and they run fine.
Any cartridge will go boom if not properly made. :supergrin:

rcd567
12-28-2011, 23:19
:upeyes: IF you don't know what happened to him, why bother posting the pic? To add to the fear drama?

Yeah, reloading is dangerous. Duh.

If you're scared, stand back and pull a string behind a barrier. :tongueout:

Uhm....nope. I posted it because it was suppose to be a guy that had a kaboom with a Glock 40. Just clarifying it wasn't me nor did I witness it.:tongueout: And yep, I'm scared.:rofl:

kindapointless
12-29-2011, 04:29
So could you apply this to our 2 favorite 9 bys the 357 Sig and 9x25 dillon? Wouldn't that make a 357 Sig theoretically stronger since it started from the 40? Sorry have no real world experience with either just trying to expand my knowledge. Small primered 10mm ? Who makes such a beast?

_The_Shadow
12-29-2011, 09:56
So could you apply this to our 2 favorite 9 bys the 357 Sig and 9x25 dillon? Wouldn't that make a 357 Sig theoretically stronger since it started from the 40? Sorry have no real world experience with either just trying to expand my knowledge. Small primered 10mm ? Who makes such a beast?

Several of the ammo companies manufacture NT (non toxic) line of ammo for LE indoor range use...but many LE are moving back to 9mm so again less 10mm ammo. The few pieces of small primed 10mm I have are Federal cases.
Federal Ballisticlean, Winchester WinClean, are made under contracts.

I did find that Speer's 357Sig brass has a very small flash hole (ruined my LEE decapping pin), don't know what their reason was for this...I had to drill them out to a larger size to avoid those issues.

My experiments with the 9x25Dillon are loaded by seat of the pants obsevations, because powder and data is very limited. Myself and others have worked up loads with powders that were not published.
It would be great if the powder manufactures would publish more data for this cartridge. Extrapulating data based off the 357Sig and working upward has worked as a starting point.

glock20c10mm
12-29-2011, 22:52
What did he discover? 82% overload on the 10mm is too much. 146% overload on the .40 is okay.

conclusion:

NOTE: DO NOT EVEN ATTEMPT IN YOUR GUN!!!!

14.2 gr. 800x behind a 200gr. speer was too much for a 10mm cartridge.
15.5 gr. 800x behind a 200gr. speer was okay for a .40 s&w cartridge.

15.5 gr. 800x behind a 200 gr. speer is a max book load for the .44 magnum.

NOTE: DO NOT EVEN ATTEMPT IN YOUR GUN!!!!

Clark's G22 was highly modified, including a double recoil spring somewhere in the neighborhood of 48# resistance IIRC, (recall that the stoutest spring commercially available for full size glocks is in the mid 20#) and the otherwise stock glock g22 barrel on his gun was heliarched around the chamber to ensure 100% case support.
What did Clark use as a platform in determining the more limited abuse a 10mm case could handle?

glock20c10mm
12-29-2011, 23:10
The 10mm case will not handle that pressure because the larger primer pocket on the 10mm case is a flaw in the amount of pressure it will really handle.

Hence the folks always looking for 10mm brass with the small primer hole. :)

I have some small primer pocket 10mm brass...
Anybody ever hack down one of these small-primer-pocketed 10mm cases lengthwise to see if the brass is manufactured equally in the webbing and primer pocket area of standard large-primer-pocketed 10mm cases?

november3
05-02-2014, 18:12
:upeyes: IF you don't know what happened to him, why bother posting the pic? To add to the fear drama?

Yeah, reloading is dangerous. Duh.

If you're scared, stand back and pull a string behind a barrier. :tongueout:

FYI. In 2010, my brother & me were doing some target practice. My brother had his Sig P229 .40 S&W shooting white box Winchester ammo & I was standing approx. 15 feet to his right. The second shot he fired blew up, the extractor went into my left eye and the grips destroyed. Sig asked me to send the pistol to them along with the unfired rounds. We also got Winchester involved and tried to get Sig to pay half of my medical bills but Sig repaired to pistol but they refused to pay any medical bills. Winchester did pay over $20M for my thee surgeries but I am legally bind in that eye. It could have been a double charge but Winchester pulled the remaining 48 rounds & they were all within specs.

bac1023
05-22-2014, 17:10
http://i80.photobucket.com/albums/j163/rcd567/fingerless.jpg

Glock grenade or should I say Glock 22, 40 cal.:wow:

And no, I don't know if that's what actually happened to this poor fella. Just got it and the story off the internet.:dunno::faint:



:shocked:

Maine1
05-22-2014, 21:06
Hey Kegs, good to see you are still in one peice!
I know you have been at this a while. When i first heard of the " long, hot 40" rounds, i WAS a bit sceptical. The strenght of the SPP brass does make some sense. In looking into this the last several years, i think it might be viable for the careful reloader.

All I'd really want would be a way to load a 200 grain bullet to a safe 1200-1275 in 40 brass, so i would not stress about finding my 10mm brass! If i could do that and have a weapon with the reliability of the glock...well....would i need another handgun? Of course i'd want a few of 'em.

Kegs, you are loading too long for a 40 barrel, correct? Could it be throated to allow this?

MinervaDoe
05-23-2014, 19:21
Hey Kegs, good to see you are still in one peice!

Kegs hasn't posted since April 1st of 2013.

You can click on his name on this thread and select "Find More posts from Kegs" to see that.

Tim808
05-26-2014, 03:26
Just wondering. Could it be implied that if you put a 40sw conversion barrel (well supported) into a G20, that you could get greater/better velocities than a 10mm?

Does anyone here actually do this?

Oh well, at least 40 brass is a cheaper and easier to find.

Damn so the theory a nuclear 10 caused the extinction of the dinosaurs was a little off base.........it was a nuclear 40sw?

I'm never telling this to any of my friends who I tease about shooting "short & weak".

4Rules
05-26-2014, 06:42
...I don't know if that's what actually happened to this poor fella. Just got it and the story off the internet.

The photograph you posted is as credible as that "How a Glock works" (KB) video that progresses to stock footage of a thermonuclear mushroom cloud.

The only way that those amputations could have followed a KB is if the shooter had some minor flesh wounds but: a.) didn't seek medical attention, and; b.) did not clean the wounds properly, and; c.) deliberately allowed an infection to fester, instead of treating it promptly.

Both the amputation photograph and the stock footage of a thermonuclear mushroom cloud have absolutely nothing to do with any discharge from any handgun.

4Rules
05-26-2014, 06:47
FYI. In 2010, my brother & me were doing some target practice. My brother had his Sig P229 .40 S&W shooting white box Winchester ammo & I was standing approx. 15 feet to his right. The second shot he fired blew up, the extractor went into my left eye and the grips destroyed. Sig asked me to send the pistol to them along with the unfired rounds. We also got Winchester involved and tried to get Sig to pay half of my medical bills but Sig repaired to pistol but they refused to pay any medical bills. Winchester did pay over $20M for my thee surgeries but I am legally bind in that eye. It could have been a double charge but Winchester pulled the remaining 48 rounds & they were all within specs.

$20M, or $20K?

($20K, I could believe.)

MinervaDoe
05-27-2014, 20:38
I'm never telling this to any of my friends who I tease about shooting "short & weak".
That's good, because it's a bunch of BS, and you'd end up looking silly.

Kegs posted results of one his tests that wildly violated SAAMI specs for the .40 S&W. The primers were popping out of his rounds when he fired them, yet he claimed that what he was doing was perfectly safe. If he isn't going to take responsibility for his own well being, he should at least accept that posting this kind of crap endangers others who believe it and may follow his example.