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FearTheBoomAndBust
12-27-2011, 11:25
I know I'm going to get flamed here, but I figure its worth while to show how the real BATFE, not the political appointees that you all (and everyone in the Bureau) hate.

If anyone wants to make an adult argument against the BATFE's existence, I would be more then happy to listen to it, on three conditions:
1) You pay a $200 tax stamp to me and fill out a form with a 6 month turn around time.
2) Read my post first, because it will address a number of concerns.
3) Have proof, and be an adult with your argument, please do not slander the men and women who put their lives on the line to protect (believe it or not) your lawful use and ownership of firearms.

You only have to follow 2 & 3 of the above in order for me to discuss your points thought :tongueout:

Heres the story of me:
I remember accepting the offer to be a SA in the BATFE, I had lots of concerns, because like all of you, my only experiences were of the Bureaus failures, and my father who was in lobbying on Capital Hill and his rants against the BATFE and gun control. I decided on the BATFE anyway, I loved explosives and Firearms, and figured having a 2nd Amendment loving SA would temper the assumed anti-gun feelings of all of my coworkers.

I couldn't have been more wrong. After training and being assigned to my first Field Office I realized that all of my coworkers supported the 2nd Amendment as much as me.

No one, absolutely no one in the BATFE that I have ever met wants to take away your 2nd Amendment rights, however this is America and things must be regulated in order to keep order.

For that the BATFE uses Congressionally passed laws, the United States Code, and the Code of Federal Regulations. Constitutional, Criminal, and every other relevant type of lawyer has argued the legality of use of each of those 3 for firearms law enforcement countless times. The judiciary agrees that it is legal and constitutional. All three branches of Government agree on it, and as per our Constitution, I uphold all three, I did then I still do now.

It is not now, nor has it ever been a conspiracy against lawful gun owners, just unlawful ones, if you didn't want to be responsible and not follow the laws governing Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, or (me specifically:) Explosives, it was my job to arrest you. You broke the law, I'm law enforcement, thats how things in our society work.

If you don't support the NFA, push Congress to repeal it, or the Executive to write an Executive Order ordering the BATFE and FBI to cease and desist in enforcing it. The BATFE has very little to do with it other then enforcement. If the NFA was repealed you would also see a good chunk of the BATFE's section of the CFR disappear, and Special Agents would happily stop enforcing things such as SBR, SBS, and Fully Automatic weapons.

I guess where I'm going with this is, its the fault of politics not the Bureau for 99% of the things you don't like about the BATFE.

Now to some hot button issues: (Anything from my time with the Bureau that I experienced might seem vague because of classification and non-discloser, everything else though, I will be blunt), non of this is official US Government position and should not be quoted as such.

Q) Fast & Furious defend that!
A) There is absolutely no defending that, I'm not going to try, the OpSec was a cluster, they had no true plan, and it was come up with by the politikers not Special Agents. Did Eric Holder lie to Congress, I believe so, and thats horrible, but no BATFE Special Agent, including myself during my time there, would ever lie under oath, we look down on anyone who does the same way you all do.

Q) Branch Dividians, you all are corrupt villains out to show force and kill women and children.
A) David Korresh (spelling?) blatantly broke a number of laws and believed himself to be the messiah. It was a lawful warrant that the BATFE and FBI were serving, he chose to kill 4 Agents. The siege then started with the hopes of freeing the children of the cult. Did agents involved feel bad about the outcome, they felt bad about the children and 4 Agents who died. Why didn't the BATFE wait for an unarmed David to be on a run to arrest him outside of the compound? Simple, the Bureau feared that with the "messiah" captured, the Branch Dividians would commit mass suicide Jonestown style.

Q) You all (the BATFE) illegally write laws to limit the 2nd Amendment
A) No, the BATFE with the help of US Attorneys under authorization of Congress write a section of the CFR that regulates the broad laws passed by Congress.

Q) The BATFE only exists to take away citizens 2nd Amendment rights
A) Again, no, if anything the BATFE wants to make your 2nd Amendment stronger, as long as you execute it legally.

Q) Why do you say BATFE instead of ATF, isn't it officially ATF?
A) My sub-division was mainly the Explosives and real egregious firearms offenses, we used BATFE because it includes the E.

Q) Why does my SBR or SBS form take so long to process and why do I have to pay $200 to exercise my 2nd Amendment right
A) Funding, the gun lobby limits the BATFE's funding leaving very few people to review the forms and make sure you can legally own what you are asking for. As for the tax, well this is America, death and taxes, make your own joke.

Q) If the BATFE isn't that bad why did you leave?
A) A lot of my skills (language, NREMT-P, good at long away from home travel) weren't being utilized and I was often detailed to other agencies anyways, so everyone thought it would be better to send me where they would be used.

Q) But what about my 2nd Amendment, you still are trampling on it with regulation.
A) Listen, no Amendment is absolute, all of them have regulation tied to them. Without regulation on even just our Bill of Rights, there would be anarchy, for a well functioning society there must be regulation involved. Its a tough pill to swallow but it is the truth, I don't like it anymore then you men.

Q) But I need my Fully Automatic SBR to protect my family and the Constitution says I have a right.
A) Thats your prerogative, as long as you follow the law and obtain it the right way you are going to catch no Flak from the BATFE.

Q) What can I do to make the BATFE not exist anymore.
A) Executive Branch or Congress, but if the BATFE were to simply disappear the FBI or DEA would receive all of the BATFE's funding and personel and enforce the same laws. Now if you want to get rid of all federal firearms laws, good luck living in that United States, if you have ever been to Yemen where everyone walks around with a Automatic weapon you know what I mean.

Q)?????
A)I don't know what else you all want to know, ask your own question and I will answer it.

I do work 8 hour shifts and must eat and sleep so if I don't respond immediately give me some time. :whistling:

Have a nice day everyone :wavey:

H3br3wHamm3r
01-03-2012, 19:11
What are your thoughts on the Marine veteran in this story?

http://dailycaller.com/2012/01/03/marine-faces-fifteen-years-behind-bars-for-unknowingly-violating-gun-law/

TheJ
01-03-2012, 19:26
Thank you for your post. And Kudos for you're Cool Hand Luke Reference.:cool:

I'm sure there are many fine people such as your self at the Bureau. :wavey:

I think on some level everyone understands that generally the BATFE is not responsible for the laws they enforce. However, at least some (if not more) of what they enforce is seen by many gun folks as unconstitutional, over reaching and/or morally wrong. Unfortunately, there is little if any hope of any political solution on much of this though because no politician (certainly not enough anyway) has the guts to stand up to the demagoguery that would ensue by standing up against it. So I guess where some may have issue with BATFE SAs on an individual level, is that if you believe in the previously mentioned unconstitutional/immoral regulations then you are part of the problem. Additionally, if you don't believe in unconstitutional/immoral regulation but still enforce it, then you are still part of the problem. Claiming "I'm just enforcing the rules/laws" does not absolve anyone of blame, in the eyes of many, if those laws are believed to be morally and/or constitutionally wrong.

Then of course I would imagine that there are some of the stories you referred to already like Ruby Ridge, Waco, "Always Think Forfeiture" Leatherman order, Fast & Furious, etc. These stories and perceived onerous regulations tend to continually reinforce a narrative that the agency is at best part of the problem and at worst complicit in a conspiracy to deprive free people of their basic human right to self defense.



I'm not an expert on all BATFE regulation but there are some that make little sense when held up to scrutiny (however well intended they were at inception) and IMHO only serve to infringe on our rights. That doesn't mean I think all BATFE agents are bad people though.

Ljunatic
01-03-2012, 20:55
So the whole " shoestring is a machine gun" debacle is Bush's fault?

1gewehr
01-04-2012, 11:54
I appreciate that most agents at BATFE are not kitten-stomping, anti-gun zealots. Still, in my 35 years of firearms experience as an owner, dealer, C&R, and reasonably-knowledgeable person, I have seen a number of folks in that agency who DO fit the above description. Whether it is all politically-motivated or because the agency seems to attract those types of people, I do not know. But the facts seem to be that the Firearms Section of BATFE has been involved in some pretty egregious offenses against peaceful citizens.

The murders at Ruby Ridge and Waco are simply indefensible. Killing people over tax law is absurd. And for any Federal Agency to initiate lethal force against otherwise peaceful folks is murder, plain and simple.

I also take gross exception to the following statement of yours: "Now if you want to get rid of all federal firearms laws, good luck living in that United States, if you have ever been to Yemen where everyone walks around with a Automatic weapon you know what I mean."

Prior to 1934, there were NO Federal Firearms laws. None, zilch, zero. It was perfectly legal for anyone to walk into the hardware store and order a Thompson, BAR, or war-surplus Maxim or MP18 sub-machine gun with no paperwork. The US somehow was not like the anarchy you imply. Many thousands of WWI veterans brought home sub-machine guns, automatic rifles, heavy machine guns without any of them ever being used in crimes. And And don't even try to bring up Dillinger, and the other bandits of the '30's. Most of them got their Thompsons from the POLICE! And Clyde Barrow got his favorite BARs and 1911s from National Guard armories. A fat lot of good the 1934 NFA did to stop that from happening! In fact, I challenge you to point out ANY evidence that a gun control law EVER kept a criminal from acquiring firearms!

You mention that Congress authorizes BATFE to write regulations based on the laws Congress passes. That is correct, but somehow the regulations all seem to push the limits of the law just as far as they can go. As far as taxes on NFA weapons, the law says BATFE just needs to approve transfers and accept tax. Nothing in the law about fingerprint cards, photos, and local LEO approval. That's all made up by BATFE.

And do you really want to get into the absurdity of Firearms Tech Branch? C'mon, do you REALLY want to get into a discussion of shoestrings, holes, nails, springs, angle iron, and other things Tech Branch has decided are 'machine guns'? Which side plate of a Maxim is the registered part this week? How about the regulation that ANY part of a suppressor is a suppressor? Show me where Congress wrote that into law?

Lastly, I question this statement of yours; "please do not slander the men and women who put their lives on the line to protect (believe it or not) your lawful use and ownership of firearms." Please explain to me how BATFE agents protect my lawful use and ownership of firearms? 'Regulate', yes. But 'protect'? Can you show me concrete examples of this?

Again, I appreciate your willingness to have this discussion. I have many times sent in my Form4 with the $200 check attached. And wait times are dependent upon how the agency allocates resources. If they wanted to collect more tax, they would hire more examiners. If they were REALLY interested in collecting more tax, they would simply run a NICS check on applicants, and approve the Form4. Nothing in the law prohibits that from being done electronically. Turn-around of three minutes.

Jerry
01-04-2012, 13:53
1gewehr thank you for a well educated, FACTUAL and accurate post.

I had posted earlier but decided to delete it because FearTheBoomAndBust has proven that his “opinion” out ways the facts and I'm just so tired of :brickwall: that my frustration has turned into contempt. It's everyones fault but those pulling the trigger and lighting the fires. :upeyes: :steamed:

Confessions of the BATFE? REALLY? Perhaps you meant the title to read, more excuses, blame everyone except those that actually do the dirty deeds and I’ll defend their unconstitutional “right” to do everything and anything they do. OR you could have just titled it, I believe everyone has their heads so far up their arses they’ll believe my BS. :faint:

IhRedrider
01-04-2012, 16:19
FearTheBoomAndBus

There is so much unconstitutional about the BATF that it is hard to know where to start. Since, as others have pointed out, you are just expressing your opinion. And your opinion is worth exactly what mine is (NOTHING), I have some comments on your statements.

but no BATFE Special Agent, including myself during my time there, would ever lie under oath, we look down on anyone who does the same way you all do

How can you make such a claim, do you know this to be true. And if so, show us.

Simple, the Bureau feared that with the "messiah" captured, the Branch Dividians would commit mass suicide Jonestown style.

How do you have such insight into the inner workings of the Bureau? Were you in on the decision making process? If the Bureau is making life taking decisions out of fear, that speaks to a whole new level of incompetence.

Q) You all (the BATFE) illegally write laws to limit the 2nd Amendment
A) No, the BATFE with the help of US Attorneys under authorization of Congress write a section of the CFR that regulates the broad laws passed by Congress.

The issue is the matter of legality. If you or anyone else writes a law that infringes upon a citizen's RIGHT to own and bear arms, that by definition violates the Constitution therefore is ILLEGAL.

A) Again, no, if anything the BATFE wants to make your 2nd Amendment stronger, as long as you execute it legally.

Again, calls for supposition on your part. If you can show where, when and how the BATF strengthens the 2nd amendment, please do.

A) Funding, the gun lobby limits the BATFE's funding leaving very few people to review the forms and make sure you can legally own what you are asking for. As for the tax, well this is America, death and taxes, make your own joke.

Again you need to look onto the meaning of infringe. You have NO legal right to charge a citizen for a RIGHT. I don't think RIGHTS are a joking matter.

A) Listen, no Amendment is absolute, all of them have regulation tied to them. Without regulation on even just our Bill of Rights, there would be anarchy, for a well functioning society there must be regulation involved. Its a tough pill to swallow but it is the truth, I don't like it anymore then you men.

Wrong. an amendment is absolute until it is repealed. And when it comes to the Bill of Rights, you cannot regulate them. If you do, you have demoted them to privileges. Anarchy due to a lack of regulations, that is a baseless fear mongering lie.


Now if you want to get rid of all federal firearms laws, good luck living in that United States, if you have ever been to Yemen where everyone walks around with a Automatic weapon you know what I mean.

Calls for wild speculation that does not stand up to logic and reason. That is the same as saying guns in citizen's hands will result in the wild west in our streets.

Please don't come telling me your regulating my rights for my safety, I'm not interested in that lie. People all over the world have listened and yielded to this line of reasoning and are DEAD. And if you don't know about these groups of people, just ask. I know you will be answered.

As to the nice day, I prefer a FREE day. Thanks for the offer though.

Zut
01-04-2012, 20:11
Wow! What a great thread!!!

We need someone with a background in Constitutional Law to weigh in...

Jerry
01-04-2012, 21:45
Wow! What a great thread!!!

We need someone with a background in Constitutional Law to weigh in...



So are you looking for spin on the second amendment or the truth? One need not be a constitutional scholar to know there is no other interpretation of “shall not be infringed”. Until another Amendment overriding the 2nd. is added by a 2/3 majority vote of congress any law contrary to that is unconstitutional no matter who says it isn’t.

"Let us hear no more of confidence in man, but let us keep THEM [men in government] from mischief by binding them down by the chains of the Constitution." [Thomas Jefferson] [emphasis added]

Now tell me what he and the rest of the forefathers meant when they wrote “shall not be infringed”.

Several of the founding fathers would not sign the Constitution until the original 10 Amendments (The Bill of Rights) were added because they believed the Constitution did not go far enough to protect the rights of the people. Anyone that honestly believes they left the Amendments open to interpretation is a fool. Anyone who doesn’t believe and still wants to enforce some sort of interpretation has an ulterior motive. More often than not that motive is power over others.

RWBlue
01-04-2012, 22:03
For that the BATFE uses Congressionally passed laws, the United States Code, and the Code of Federal Regulations. Constitutional, Criminal, and every other relevant type of lawyer has argued the legality of use of each of those 3 for firearms law enforcement countless times. The judiciary agrees that it is legal and constitutional. All three branches of Government agree on it, and as per our Constitution, I uphold all three, I did then I still do now.


I always find these statements interesting.

It proves that people will follow orders even orders they don't believe in, if they come from authorities. Or to put it more bluntly, The Germans at the death camps were just following orders. If people didn't believe in the death camps they should not have stopped them by contacting their representatives.

Syclone538
01-04-2012, 23:51
Gun makers baffled by ATF criteria
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2012/jan/2/gun-makers-baffled-by-atf-criteria/
http://glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1392077

jeffyjeff
01-05-2012, 14:54
just following orders sir..

use whatever justification you want to feel better about it, it doesn't make you right.

ChadN.
01-06-2012, 12:44
Wow! What a great thread!!!

We need someone with a background in Constitutional Law to weigh in...

What part of "shall not be infringed" is hard to understand?

BIGGUNS911
01-06-2012, 12:50
marked for later read.

Atomic Punk
01-06-2012, 13:02
tagged to read after work. looks to get long.

humanguerrilla
01-06-2012, 13:59
The non-"F" BATFE guys that I've had dealings with seem like great folks, not thugs.


No one, absolutely no one in the BATFE that I have ever met wants to take away your 2nd Amendment rights, however this is America and things must be regulated in order to keep order.


Do rank and file agents recognize the damage certain ATF policies and programs do to the second amendment and individuals' rights? We all appreciate the Fast and Furious whistleblowers. You are saying there are more in line behind them? Is there internal resistance to things like "Always Think Forfeiture" and the grevious handling of some of these cases we see?

SDDL-UP
01-07-2012, 01:25
FearTheBoomAndBust,

I appreciate your current attitude... I really do. Would it change if agents were asked to do other things? If BATFE is paying the bills most will just be "doing their job" right? I wonder if even 5% would walk away from their jobs if there was total registration and then confiscation of all semi-auto's - on principle I mean.

As far as the Branch Davidians, I think the whole "mass suicide" thing was probably thought up AFTER the initial shootout. IMO someone wanted to go in guns blazing and that's just what they got.

If BATFE wants to curry favor with gun owners they need to stay out of the way... NOT plot and scheme in attempting to deny lawful American's their God given right to own a weapon.

Like most things political the BATFE is about those in power wanting more of it and many will do just about anything to justify their own existence on the backs of taxpayers. "How can we look important? How can we justify expansion of the Bureau? How can we gain more power? How can we increase our funding?" These are the questions most often asked at the Federal level... It's not just the BATFE.

Your closing defense of the Bureau is interesting in that the FBI or DEA will just get all the personnel and funding to enforce the same laws... again showing what's WRONG with the federal government - "Nothing you little people can do about it anyway, we'll still be here doing what we do because WE'RE government!"

Government needs to be as small as possible! Really.

Jerry
01-07-2012, 13:30
"If I were to select a jack-booted group of fascists who are perhaps as large a danger to American society as I could pick today, I would pick BATF [the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms].

-- U.S. Representative John Dingell, 1980"

Captain Steinbrenner
01-07-2012, 13:42
"however this is America and things must be regulated in order to keep order."

:upeyes:

Jerry
01-07-2012, 16:50
"however this is America and things must be regulated in order to keep order."

:upeyes:

Ve must keep order. Ve haVe Vays of making you com-form. Sound familiar?

These people don’t realize how what they say comes across. Problem is they really believe what they say. But we must admit that “regulated” sounds better than “controlled” right? :upeyes:

Jerry
01-08-2012, 19:18
Here’s another way BATF&E manipulates law/code and screws over citizens. It’s despicable!

Copied and pasted from http://glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1392785

Discussion of this starts around post # 14.


AWB94 has nothing to do with it. If the ATF decides the Slide Fire is a machine gun part or conversion, it will fall under the National Firearms Act. Since the registration of new machine guns to civilians was blocked by the Hughes Amendment to GCA86, you could not own the stock if it get reclassified as a machine gun. As a result, you would either have to destroy it (and have proof of it), return it to Slide Fire, or hand it over to the ATF. There's probably a way to sell it to a dealer or Title II manufacturer, I'm just not sure of how that would work.

Something similar has happened before with a similar stock to the Slide Fire. The previous one used a spring to return the rifle to the pre-firing position, whereas the Slide Fire relies on the shooter pushing forward on the rifle. Unfortunately, due to the way ATF opinion/determination letters work, all it takes is a single decision from someone at the ATF that the SF stock is an MG part, and you can kiss those stocks good bye.

OR! If you don’t receive a letter and or don’t follow firearms boards you will unwittingly become a felon. If reported/caught with the stock, kiss owing firearms goodbye forever. + receive a nice life changing vacation at the Iron Bar Hotel. All courtesy of your friendly BATF&E.

Jerry
01-09-2012, 21:00
I do work 8 hour shifts and must eat and sleep so if I don't respond immediately give me some time. :whistling:


It's been 10 days since you started this thread. Posts 2, 5, 7 and 16 have asked legitimate questions. Are you going to respond or is the kitchen too hot? :dunno:

DustyJacket
01-09-2012, 21:15
Serious question: Who started this requirement for imported firearms to have a "sporting purpose"?

The ATF or congress or who?

Jerry
01-09-2012, 21:45
Serious question: Who started this requirement for imported firearms to have a "sporting purpose"?

The ATF or congress or who?

It appears that it’s the ATFs idea. http://cheaperthandirt.com/blog/?p=6413

But lets us not forget that according to our own FearTheBoomAndBust the BATF&E only wants to “protect” our 2nd Amendment rights. :upeyes:

I’d love to hear how banning firearms protects my right. :dunno: :puking:

ChadN.
01-10-2012, 16:13
Still waiting on answers lol.

Jerry
01-10-2012, 16:34
Still waiting on answers lol.

Topical of government agents! There never around when you want them but they always show up when you don’t. :rofl:

DustyJacket
01-10-2012, 18:00
Still waiting on answers lol.

Perhaps he wised up.

He has posted that he used to be BATFE and now works for the USSS. I doubt his new employers like that. There are implications whenever you ID your employer and then make any posting on-line. (My annually mandatory training is kicking in.)

In fact, having been outwardly a civilian but involved in government activities, I can't believe he is USSS and talks about it on-line. It is OK for a LEO to do so, as long as they watch themself, but not USSS and other agencies whose agents are plainclothes.

His best bet is to have this ID closed and start a new one.

IhRedrider
01-16-2012, 17:11
Feartheboomandthebust,

You have been called out and you have not answered. If it is because something has happened and you cannot, I hope that you can get that resolved as soon as possible.

If have not responded because you are a liberal, liberty stealing, hate mongering troll and you know that you cannot defend anything that you claim. I am glad to see that you now realize that you stand in an indefensible position and no longer wish to be show you errors in thought. So your response to this is, no response.

To everyone who enjoys their freedoms, The attacks of those who wish to take them from you are all around us, they will sometime try to appear to be the "reasonable" version of us,presenting compromise of the truth as a safe and fair way to do things. Don't be fooled, they are far more dangerous then the self espoused haters of freedom and liberty. Don't let them spread their lies unchallenged. That is what they want and need us to do in order for them to convince those who are to comfortable in life to think for themselves.

tim12232
02-06-2012, 13:46
I think its funny how in the first post you use an all encompassing "all of my coworkers"
when in a previous post by you, you mentioned 90 percent, which isnt all?!


And finally:


The BATFE simply does not want to do that (I can confidently state that) and is not attempting to create a pretense for it. I can personally assure you that 90%+ of BATFE employees, specifically the Special Agents and people in "management" love and support the 2nd amendment and the legal ownership of firearms as much if not more then you personally do.


As always, stay safe :supergrin:

isis07734
02-06-2012, 15:13
ATF:
Does a SBS barrel have to be measures from the breach face or the end of the chamber?

Jerry
02-06-2012, 17:17
ATF:
Does a SBS barrel have to be measures from the breach face or the end of the chamber?

It seems FearTheBoomAndBus has vacated the premises. And please tell me you really don’t expect and answer here from the ATF.

I presume by SBS you mean side by side double? It is measured from the breach end of the barrel to the muzzle end. Also check with your local or state LEOs. ATF says 18” I have been told that some states say 20”.

DustyJacket
02-07-2012, 21:34
ATF:
Does a SBS barrel have to be measures from the breach face or the end of the chamber?
Barrel measurements are made by closing the action and dropping a dowel down the barral, then marking it at the muzzle.

It is documented in the NFA manual and on the web site.

DustyJacket
02-07-2012, 21:35
It seems FearTheBoomAndBus has vacated the premises. And please tell me you really don’t expect and answer here from the ATF.

I presume by SBS you mean side by side double? It is measured from the breach end of the barrel to the muzzle end. Also check with your local or state LEOs. ATF says 18” I have been told that some states say 20”.
SBS = Short Barrelled Shotgun

SBR = Short Barrelled Rifle

Jerry
02-08-2012, 07:15
Thanks Dusty. I hate abbreviations.

concretefuzzynuts
03-10-2012, 18:30
so are you looking for spin on the second amendment or the truth? One need not be a constitutional scholar to know there is no other interpretation of “shall not be infringed”. Until another amendment overriding the 2nd. Is added by a 2/3 majority vote of congress any law contrary to that is unconstitutional no matter who says it isn’t.



Now tell me what he and the rest of the forefathers meant when they wrote “shall not be infringed”.

Several of the founding fathers would not sign the constitution until the original 10 amendments (the bill of rights) were added because they believed the constitution did not go far enough to protect the rights of the people. Anyone that honestly believes they left the amendments open to interpretation is a fool. Anyone who doesn’t believe and still wants to enforce some sort of interpretation has an ulterior motive. More often than not that motive is power over others.

outstanding!!!

Mister_Beefy
03-11-2012, 00:05
disappearing in the face of further elaboration and/or substantiation of claims and arguments is status quo for LEOs around here.

Javelin
03-11-2012, 00:20
I am going to have to side with Jerry on this one.

CitizenOfDreams
03-11-2012, 00:31
Short summary of the original post: don't blame us, we are just following the orders.

sdsnet
07-07-2012, 07:42
Just look at his name "Fear the boom and bust".

concretefuzzynuts
07-07-2012, 07:52
.....

Bren
07-07-2012, 07:56
Having had family members who worked for ATF (but none who ever called it BATFE) I agree with pretty much everything the OP posted. I did have a family member who quit another federal agency over agents lying under oath and a supervisor insisting that she do the same, but I'm not aware of that among ATF agents. They are normally more highly respected among police, at least in me experience, than FBI/Secret Service/etc.

I didn't realize this was an ancient thread.

Jerry
07-07-2012, 11:36
Having had family members who worked for ATF (but none who ever called it BATFE) I agree with pretty much everything the OP posted. I did have a family member who quit another federal agency over agents lying under oath and a supervisor insisting that she do the same, but I'm not aware of that among ATF agents. They are normally more highly respected among police, at least in me experience, than FBI/Secret Service/etc.

I didn't realize this was an ancient thread.

Evidently you didn't see any of the Congressional hearings on The Weaver murders (Ruby Ridge) or Waco. ATF agents were caught lying and lied some-more to try to cover their lies. ATF shot the Weavers dog, an ol hound (hunting dog), because it was barking at them hiding in the woods. Weaver's 16 year old son saw someone shoot his dog form cover in the woods and shot back striking an ATF agent. The other agents shot him IN THE BACK as he ran for home. Yah they are really honorable people. And guess what their excuse was. "VE VERE ONLY FWOLLOWING ORDERS". :upeyes:

Which ones ARE honorable and which ones aren't? You can't tell until its to late. My bet is most will lie if order to or to cover their own arses. :whistling:

Fast and Furious is a perfect example of honor within the ATF and the Justice Department in general. :steamed:

IhRedrider
07-07-2012, 12:39
I think the troll has moved on since he got no traction here.

Hdoc
07-07-2012, 13:28
so the whole " shoestring is a machine gun" debacle is bush's fault?
+1....

F350
07-07-2012, 18:07
however this is America and things must be regulated in order to keep order.

Pardner; ya lost me right there!!!

I have had a couple less than pleasant experiences with the ATF; didn't get the impression they supported the 2nd amendment, or any other part of the constitution.

For that the BATFE uses Congressionally passed laws, the United States Code, and the Code of Federal Regulations. Constitutional, Criminal, and every other relevant type of lawyer has argued the legality of use of each of those 3 for firearms law enforcement countless times. The judiciary agrees that it is legal and constitutional. All three branches of Government agree on it, and as per our Constitution, I uphold all three, I did then I still do now.

No congress ever passed a law saying that having a single M-16 part in an AR-15 (and I think even in possession) made the rifle illegal, it is all BATF REGULATION.

I liked the M-16 sear and hammer because they were higher quality parts, better deeper hardening and could be polished for a smoother trigger pull. A guy I barely knew got caught with a home made silencer and told them I had M-16 parts in my ARs.

As soon as I had heard about the REGULATION I got rid of the parts and re-installed the AR parts. Nothing mattered to B(asterds of)ATF but trying to get me to confess in lue of actually finding parts installed or otherwise even though they trashed my place. I was harassed for years after, they would show up at the gun club where I shot and demand to inspect everything I had with me, I know they followed me from time to time....

I was working with the FBI and US Attorney's office on a telecommunications fraud case in the 80s when a proposal was in congress to roll the ATF into the FBI. Not a single FBI agent I dealt with wanted anything to do with an ATF agent (the breakup of ATT had recently happened and the FBI didn't know anything about telecommunications or what to look for in a fraud case so I volunteered to do a little seminar and had 16 agents attend) and I was dealing with the First Assistant US Attorney who didn't have anything to say about the ATF

If I found an ATF agent lost and dying of thirst in the desart; I wouldn't let him lick the sweat off my @

dpadams6
07-07-2012, 18:58
Evidently you didn't see any of the Congressional hearings on The Weaver murders (Ruby Ridge) or Waco. ATF agents were caught lying and lied some-more to try to cover their lies. ATF shot the Weavers dog, an ol hound (hunting dog), because it was barking at them hiding in the woods. Weaver's 16 year old son saw someone shoot his dog form cover in the woods and shot back striking an ATF agent. The other agents shot him IN THE BACK as he ran for home. Yah they are really honorable people. And guess what their excuse was. "VE VERE ONLY FWOLLOWING ORDERS". :upeyes:

Which ones ARE honorable and which ones aren't? You can't tell until its to late. My bet is most will lie if order to or to cover their own arses. :whistling:

Fast and Furious is a perfect example of honor within the ATF and the Justice Department in general. :steamed:

Approaching a house during a raid. Silence is everything. Shooting a barking dog? What's wrong with that? Human life more important than a dog. Someone shooting at the agents. The son. And agents shooting an armed person who just shot one of there agents? What's wrong with that? If he 's old enough to shoot, he's old enough to kill too.

Jerry
07-07-2012, 19:00
Pardner; ya lost me right there!!!

I have had a couple less than pleasant experiences with the ATF; didn't get the impression they supported the 2nd amendment, or any other part of the constitution.



No congress ever passed a law saying that having a single M-16 part in an AR-15 (and I think even in possession) made the rifle illegal, it is all BATF REGULATION.

I liked the M-16 sear and hammer because they were higher quality parts, better deeper hardening and could be polished for a smoother trigger pull. A guy I barely knew got caught with a home made silencer and told them I had M-16 parts in my ARs.

As soon as I had heard about the REGULATION I got rid of the parts and re-installed the AR parts. Nothing mattered to B(asterds of)ATF but trying to get me to confess in lue of actually finding parts installed or otherwise even though they trashed my place. I was harassed for years after, they would show up at the gun club where I shot and demand to inspect everything I had with me, I know they followed me from time to time....

I was working with the FBI and US Attorney's office on a telecommunications fraud case in the 80s when a proposal was in congress to roll the ATF into the FBI. Not a single FBI agent I dealt with wanted anything to do with an ATF agent (the breakup of ATT had recently happened and the FBI didn't know anything about telecommunications or what to look for in a fraud case so I volunteered to do a little seminar and had 16 agents attend) and I was dealing with the First Assistant US Attorney who didn't have anything to say about the ATF

If I found an ATF agent lost and dying of thirst in the desart; I wouldn't let him lick the sweat off my @

I'm sorry to hear of what happened to you, however I'm glad to have someone here that can actually attest to ATF's "over zealous" enforcement. A few years ago someone had his safe torn apart buy the jaws of life in the hands of ATF after he offered to open the safe for them. He to was "turned in" by an informant fore something he didn't have. Didn't stop the from destroying his safe and tearing his house up.

Years ago, before it became illegal I ordered a M 16 fire-control. Of course I got a visit even though it was legal. Like you when it became illegal I clunked them and put the stock parts back in.

Thankfully my only horror story concerns NISC. Hold! Hold! Hold! :dunno:

Jerry
07-07-2012, 19:08
Approaching a house during a raid. Silence is everything. Shooting a barking dog? What's wrong with that? Human life more important than a dog. Someone shooting at the agents. The son. And agents shooting an armed person who just shot one of there agents? What's wrong with that? If he 's old enough to shoot, he's old enough to kill too.

If you don't see what's wrong with that you're part of the problem. Do you know the story of what happened to the Weavers. If you do and you agree with it... GT rules won't allow me to tell you what I'd like to. I'll tell you this much. Come on my property and shoot one of my dogs and I will rain hellfire down on you. Come on my property, don't identify yourself and start shooting you'd better be prepared to receive return fire.

Randy Weaver nor any of the Weavers had done anything violent. They went to town quite often. In fact Randy and his wife had been stopped and PEACEFULLY taken into custody on a bridge while on their way to town previously. There was no cause/need for a "stealth" raid by JBT ATF agents on their home.

However ATF and the FBI sure saw a need to lie to Congress about what happened. I wonder why that was. Randy was acquitted in criminal court and then won a civil suit against the government. I wonder why. Could it be because his wife and son were MURDERED by JBT.

frizz
08-19-2012, 09:30
Serious question: Who started this requirement for imported firearms to have a "sporting purpose"?

The ATF or congress or who?
Congress. I've seen a lot of legislation going back to the 1968 GCA.

frizz
08-19-2012, 09:36
If you don't see what's wrong with that you're part of the problem. Do you know the story of what happened to the Weavers.

Massive screwup by the feds, along with some bad-faith actions.

First, they had an undercover agent hound him to saw off a shotgun. Then, they gave him the wrong court date, which is (I think) why they sent a raiding party. I am giving them the benefit of the doubt on the wrong court date...

Somewhat similar to the case involving regular police shooting an elderly woman when they did a no-knock drug raid on the wrong address. She fired at what was from her reasonable view, a home invasion.

They had the gall to charge her, but they were dropped. I don't know how that happened, grand jury or a good lawyer with public pressure.

Jerry
08-19-2012, 12:38
Massive screwup by the feds, along with some bad-faith actions.

First, they had an undercover agent hound him to saw off a shotgun. Then, they gave him the wrong court date, which is (I think) why they sent a raiding party. I am giving them the benefit of the doubt on the wrong court date...

Somewhat similar to the case involving regular police shooting an elderly woman when they did a no-knock drug raid on the wrong address. She fired at what was from her reasonable view, a home invasion.

They had the gall to charge her, but they were dropped. I don't know how that happened, grand jury or a good lawyer with public pressure.

Too bad dpadams6 doesn't/didn't know that or doesn't understand what was wrong with those actions.

Lord
12-19-2012, 19:42
If I'm not mistaken, a federal court ruled that the branch davidians committed no crime when those 4 atf agents were killed because the executed the warrant improperly, thus illegally, and the compound residents actually had the right to defend themselves because no one in the atf initially identified themselves as Leos. Further, that dude that was attorney general at the time was disciplined before senate hearing committee for using national guard armaments against US citizens, which by the way is a crime.

I don't believe all atf is bad, but you could not have been there for all of it to be able to say that they acted 100% appropriately in their actions. It's tragic, to be sure, that anyone got killed, including the agents, but they acted stupidly and brought it on themselves, just as you say Koresh did. I won't even bring up the infrared aerial surveillance video that shows canisters being lobbed into the structures seconds before the infernoes erupted.

You're loyal to your organization, and that's awesome... but using ruby ridge as a point maker... probably should have left that one out. The atf committed murder and janet reno authorized it during that siege... its indisputable. The only ones held accountable... branch davidians.

Bren
12-20-2012, 06:10
I know I'm going to get flamed here, but I figure its worth while to show how the real BATFE, not the political appointees that you all (and everyone in the Bureau) hate.

If anyone wants to make an adult argument against the BATFE's existence, I would be more then happy to listen to it, on three conditions:
1) You pay a $200 tax stamp to me and fill out a form with a 6 month turn around time.
2) Read my post first, because it will address a number of concerns.
3) Have proof, and be an adult with your argument, please do not slander the men and women who put their lives on the line to protect (believe it or not) your lawful use and ownership of firearms.

I'm not doing any of those things.

But,

The problem with ATF is the same as the problems with police, we see here. Most posters can't separate the law and lawmakers' decisions from those who enforce them.

We collectively elect lawmakers. They make laws. We collectively hire people to enforce them. Then we blame the people we hired to enforce them, for the laws our elected lawmakers made.

To make it a step stupider - here at Glock Talk, we also blame LE for not ignoring the bad laws...and the same people blame them for ignoring the laws they didn't want ignored. This forum is (literally) at least half populated by children.

Sensai
12-22-2012, 14:47
Nice to know. Thanks for your service,stay safe. Merry Christmas to you and yours.:wavey:

StapleGun
01-02-2013, 14:06
Huh??? ATF is full of thugs and liars. If you need examples get a beer or two and begin reading LINK (http://cleanupatf.org/forums/index.php?/forum/22-operation-fast-furious-operation-wide-reciever-project-gunrunner-operation-castaway-et-al/) & LINK (cleanupatf.org/forums/index.php?/forum/22-operation-fast-furious-operation-wide-reciever-project-gunrunner-operation-castaway-et-al/) get an eyeful at cleanupatf.org :rofl:

Jerry
01-02-2013, 16:36
I'm not doing any of those things.

But,

he problem with ATF is the same as the problems with police, we see here. Most posters can't separate the law and lawmakers' decisions from those who enforce them.

We collectively elect lawmakers. They make laws. We collectively hire people to enforce them. Then we blame the people we hired to enforce them, for the laws out elected lawmakers made.

To make it a step stupider - here at Glock Talk, we also blame LE for not ignoring the bad laws...and the same people blame them for ignoring the laws they didn't want ignored. This forum is (literally) at least half populated by children.

But isn't it funny what laws they DO pick and choose and when and where NOT to enforce. Isn't it funny how they can openly brake the law and the administration, courts nor Congress punish them. :upeyes:

railfancwb
01-02-2013, 16:57
But isn't it funny what laws they DO pick and choose and when and where NOT to enforce. Isn't it funny how they can openly brake the law and the administration, courts nor Congress punish them. :upeyes:

Still waiting to hear that Gregory has been arrested and charged with violating DC's "high capacity" magazine ban. And I suspect one or more additional NBC:Meet the Press employees were involved. I doubt that Gregoru went to a LGS and bought it...all were probably sold out by that time.


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GunHo198
01-02-2013, 17:37
Here's my question for the BATFE..

About 8 years ago while I was out of state, my home was broken into. I got a call from family, and quickly called a friend of mine on the LEO as he knew I have a large gun collection. He notified the officers responding to check on my collection. I had an FN FAL out of the safe as there wasn't any room for it. (My mistake). When they got there the FN FAL was sitting by the broken front door. The LEO's that were there spotted my ammo crate marke 81mm HE and called in the Bomb squad and the BATFE. As I'm driving back to my state, I'm on the phone with a Capt. of my LEO and she said my master bedroom was one of the few rooms the suspects did not enter. But she wanted to know what was in the locked ammo crate. I told her it's contents. Military maps, etc.. left over from my service and she could pop it open and check it out if it made her feel better. While all this was going on I had a friend go to my house to represent me, and take custody of my too scared to death dogs. Meanwhile he observed, the Leo run a K-9 through my house (which took a dump in my office), and saw BATFE and the LEO ransacking my house. Not only did they do a thorough ransacking, they even crawled under it through my crawl space to see if I had a hidden basement. (In Florida) In the end, BATF took my FN-FAL with them. The had asked me over the phone where my keys were to the gun safe, but I had those on me. However, someone attempted to drill out the lock, yet when the burglars saw the cops they ran off, and didn't leave behind any drills or tools. When I got home they were all gone and my home was trashed! I took pictures of every room including my master bedroom that was NEVER touched by the suspects. Every bed in my home was tossed including the Master bedroom. Every dresser drawer in the house was also tossed including the master bedroom. And to add insult to injury, when I called the BATFE about my FN-FAL, they said they didn't take it, it was my LEO. When I called my LEO, they said BATFE took it. I contacted my buddies in the LEO and one of them works in the evidence room and verified that it wasn't there, that BATFE infact did take it with them.

As you can see here, this leaves me with many questions.

So after I lawyered up. The guys on my LEO told me who to FAX my hate letter too. I faxed everyone from my LEO's internal affairs, BATFE internal affairs, Mayor, District, and state attorneys, and just about everyone else I could think of.

So my questions are:

Why didn't BATFE get a warrant to search my home? They had plenty of time as I was 8 hours away.

And why did the BATFE lie about having my FN-FAL?

Two days after my faxing furry, a BATFE supervisor was at my front door handing me my rifle. Yes he was polite and appologised, and he explained that his agents are not experts on firearms. Often they don't know what they are looking at, and take the firearm to their expert who examines the weapon to see if any crime has been committed. This I understand, but saying your agency doesn't have it, and also searching without a warrant is troubling.

I don't have any hate torwards the agency. My LEO friends said these were all Good Cops that just made bad choices, and the Capt. on the scene should have watched them closer as she's the one who should know better than all of them. They also explained that if the suspects touched something, then thats reason to examine the object. Fine then, but why did they want to get into my locked gun safe then? It's locked. The suspects didn't touch any of the contents.... Also why did they ransack a room that the suspects never went into? They even ransacked my wifes "Naughty drawer!".. LOL

And to make matters even worse, the LEO's on the scene found a S&W 9mm on the floor of my kids room. When the Crime scene tech picked it up, she shot a hole through my wall and couch.... They bought me a new couch....

Ok. Questions done. I got my firearm back. Got 3 more safes, and an alarm that calls ME, and not the cops.

Again, no hate. But who's in charge there???

dougader
01-02-2013, 23:26
posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire (http://www.outdoorhub.com/mobile/)

Prior to1986, class 2 manufacturer makes a 5 gallon bucket full of M-16 auto sears and marks them all with serial numbers. He submitted all the paperwork to BATF several times and they continue to "lose" the paperwork. So he sends it in a diplomatic pouch from his senator's office directly to BATF.

A few weeks later, agents show up at his shop with pre-typed violations, do a bogus audit where"Bill" catches them trying to pocket auto-sears and as they leave, one great "advocate" of the 2nd amendment says "you complain too much."

Bill is issued a revocation of his FFL license, goes through hearings and U.S. District court where the judge rules that there were no violations, but she'll let the revocation stand.

So screw you and the rest of your buddy-so-called patriots and protectors of the 2nd Amendment. You are either naive and ignorant (or just plain stupid) or a bald-faced liar.

GunHo198
01-03-2013, 00:46
Wow! I'm not even going to bring up the SRT Supply frackus a few years back.

You guys can google that one...


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Jerry
01-03-2013, 18:38
Still waiting to hear that Gregory has been arrested and charged with violating DC's "high capacity" magazine ban. And I suspect one or more additional NBC:Meet the Press employees were involved. I doubt that Gregoru went to a LGS and bought it...all were probably sold out by that time.


Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire (http://www.outdoorhub.com/mobile/)

Must be nice to belong to the "I'm above the law" crowd. I wonder how one gets a fraternity card?

Oh, never mind. I just figured it out. You can join any one of the alphabet soup government agencies or become a member of the press. Then you're good to go. No laws apply.

Jerry
01-03-2013, 19:22
Here's my question for the BATFE..

About 8 years ago while I was out of state, my home was broken into. I got a call from family, and quickly called a friend of mine on the LEO as he knew I have a large gun collection. He notified the officers responding to check on my collection. I had an FN FAL out of the safe as there wasn't any room for it. (My mistake). When they got there the FN FAL was sitting by the broken front door. The LEO's that were there spotted my ammo crate marke 81mm HE and called in the Bomb squad and the BATFE. As I'm driving back to my state, I'm on the phone with a Capt. of my LEO and she said my master bedroom was one of the few rooms the suspects did not enter. But she wanted to know what was in the locked ammo crate. I told her it's contents. Military maps, etc.. left over from my service and she could pop it open and check it out if it made her feel better. While all this was going on I had a friend go to my house to represent me, and take custody of my too scared to death dogs. Meanwhile he observed, the Leo run a K-9 through my house (which took a dump in my office), and saw BATFE and the LEO ransacking my house. Not only did they do a thorough ransacking, they even crawled under it through my crawl space to see if I had a hidden basement. (In Florida) In the end, BATF took my FN-FAL with them. The had asked me over the phone where my keys were to the gun safe, but I had those on me. However, someone attempted to drill out the lock, yet when the burglars saw the cops they ran off, and didn't leave behind any drills or tools. When I got home they were all gone and my home was trashed! I took pictures of every room including my master bedroom that was NEVER touched by the suspects. Every bed in my home was tossed including the Master bedroom. Every dresser drawer in the house was also tossed including the master bedroom. And to add insult to injury, when I called the BATFE about my FN-FAL, they said they didn't take it, it was my LEO. When I called my LEO, they said BATFE took it. I contacted my buddies in the LEO and one of them works in the evidence room and verified that it wasn't there, that BATFE infact did take it with them.

As you can see here, this leaves me with many questions.

So after I lawyered up. The guys on my LEO told me who to FAX my hate letter too. I faxed everyone from my LEO's internal affairs, BATFE internal affairs, Mayor, District, and state attorneys, and just about everyone else I could think of.

So my questions are:

Why didn't BATFE get a warrant to search my home? They had plenty of time as I was 8 hours away.

And why did the BATFE lie about having my FN-FAL?

Two days after my faxing furry, a BATFE supervisor was at my front door handing me my rifle. Yes he was polite and appologised, and he explained that his agents are not experts on firearms. Often they don't know what they are looking at, and take the firearm to their expert who examines the weapon to see if any crime has been committed. This I understand, but saying your agency doesn't have it, and also searching without a warrant is troubling.

I don't have any hate torwards the agency. My LEO friends said these were all Good Cops that just made bad choices, and the Capt. on the scene should have watched them closer as she's the one who should know better than all of them. They also explained that if the suspects touched something, then thats reason to examine the object. Fine then, but why did they want to get into my locked gun safe then? It's locked. The suspects didn't touch any of the contents.... Also why did they ransack a room that the suspects never went into? They even ransacked my wifes "Naughty drawer!".. LOL

And to make matters even worse, the LEO's on the scene found a S&W 9mm on the floor of my kids room. When the Crime scene tech picked it up, she shot a hole through my wall and couch.... They bought me a new couch....

Ok. Questions done. I got my firearm back. Got 3 more safes, and an alarm that calls ME, and not the cops.

Again, no hate. But who's in charge there???

First let me say that I'm really sorry to hear that this happened to you. Second let me say this is not the first story of this type I've heard of. Third, I'm glad you hold no animosity against the ATF because the only visit I ever had from them 1973 was actually handled professionally and courteously. However I've heard of too may horror srories since for me to have love for the BTAF&E. They keep adding letters. :upeyes:

I was at the range today. I was going back and forth to the rifle rack as I was sighting in a scope and testing loads for different rifles. Shot five change rifles, shoot five change rifles. At on point I turned around and there was a "gentleman" standing there with a windbreaker on that said FBI. AND HE WAS LOOKING AT ME!. Jerry I says... here we go. :wow: I just said hi. He said hi, are those two scopes the same. I said they are. They are both Night Force. However one is a higher power than than other and one has a target radical and the other a hunting redial. He smiled and said "OH". I swapped out rifles and sat at the bench. When I looked back he was gone. :dunno:

kenpoprofessor
01-03-2013, 20:17
The only thing I'll add to this, after hearing many, many stories that always end badly concerning this particular alphabet agency.

Any person, who works for, with, or in any way with them, is a traitor to this country, and should suffer the fate of a traitor. I feel the same about the IRS.

Have a great gun carryin' Kenpo day

Clyde