never have shot my own reloads as of yet...... [Archive] - Glock Talk

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ponders
01-01-2012, 14:22
but i sjust finished reloading a box of 1000 berrys double struck 124 gr 9mm boolits. :whistling:

i loaded them with 4.4 grains of bullseye powder and seated them to 1.155 or so depth. is this 4.4 grains erring on the +p side or is this load going to be OK?:embarassed::embarassed:

snowwdog
01-01-2012, 14:24
well you have 1000 trigger pulls to find out! better get started...

ponders
01-01-2012, 14:25
well you have 1000 trigger pulls to find out! better get started...


thats what im afraid of... i dont want to find out the hard way that its way too hot or something like that :shocked:
alliants website said 4.4 so im assuming its ok but ya know what murphys law says

WiskyT
01-01-2012, 14:32
Allaints website says to reduce their listed load by 10% and start from there.

snowwdog
01-01-2012, 14:34
well yes you should have started lower and worked your way up. and you should never load more than 3 or 5 rounds in small incraments to see how your gun will digest the load. but since you loaded 1k rounds without doing things the right way your only option is to shoot some thru a chrono and see what ya have. But hell im assuming you dont have a chrono so next step is to fire a round and retrieve the case. Inspect the case and look for buldges or cracks. also look at the primer and make sure there is no primer flow, flattened primer or primer blow out. if all looks good repeat 1000 times :rofl:

ponders
01-01-2012, 14:36
is 10% lower really gona make that big of a difference? :dunno:

ColoCG
01-01-2012, 14:45
is 10% lower really gona make that big of a difference? :dunno:


Yes! It can make a big difference.
It might be time to get out your bullet puller. Or find an ex-wife to shoot them like Jack does.:supergrin:

ETA: Plated bullets should be loaded lighter than FMJ bullets anyway.

ponders
01-01-2012, 14:53
i know of someone that uses 4.5 and no signs of overpressure, chronoed at 1050 fps.. no idea on what gun or length of barrel that was tho

twag4
01-01-2012, 14:58
I have loaded the same projectiles with 3.7g of Bullseye at 1.120 oal- with good results in a G19.

GioaJack
01-01-2012, 14:59
I may not be of sound mind right at the moment but I think someone may be having a bit of New Year's fun with us.

A thousand loaded rounds without testing the load? Even I wouldn't do something like that.

(Well, maybe I would but I expect other people to be smarter than me.)


Jack

ColoCG
01-01-2012, 15:03
i know of someone that uses 4.5 and no signs of overpressure, chronoed at 1050 fps.. no idea on what gun or length of barrel that was tho


You gotta remember, just because it works in someone else's gun doesn't mean it is safe in yours. Every gun and barrel are different. It may and it may not, that's why you should start low and work your load up slowly looking for pressure sign's.

RustyFN
01-01-2012, 15:07
thats what im afraid of... i dont want to find out the hard way that its way too hot or something like that :shocked:
alliants website said 4.4 so im assuming its ok but ya know what murphys law says

is 10% lower really gona make that big of a difference?

Sounds like somebody needs to buy a reloading manual and read it.

snowwdog
01-01-2012, 15:10
hell i think jack may be right. I had a feeling it was a bit of an april fools like troll post at first, but im a sucker.... with a gun.

ponders
01-01-2012, 15:10
I may not be of sound mind right at the moment but I think someone may be having a bit of New Year's fun with us.

A thousand loaded rounds without testing the load? Even I wouldn't do something like that.

(Well, maybe I would but I expect other people to be smarter than me.)


Jack

no new years fun.. i really loaded 1k without testing... kinda new to relaoding.. didnt think first. ok i got my flame suit on.:couch:

GioaJack
01-01-2012, 15:13
We all screw up... the trick is to learn from it.

Get divorced, then let her shoot the first few.


Jack

ponders
01-01-2012, 15:14
We all screw up... the trick is to learn from it.

Get divorced, then let her shoot the first few.


Jack


:rofl::rofl: why not just let her shoot the first few first without the divorce? idk just skip the middle man:whistling:

Colorado4Wheel
01-01-2012, 15:20
i know of someone that uses 4.5 and no signs of overpressure, chronoed at 1050 fps.. no idea on what gun or length of barrel that was tho

You need to do some studying up on reloading and why and how you pick a specific powder charge.

gforester
01-01-2012, 15:41
This must be the 3rd or 4th time I read of someone doing just that sort of thing this week. I guess it happens every Christmas.

Ahh, the exhilaration of making your first loads is so great you just keep running that press without testing. :rofl:

Oh! I just noticed Ponders is in Minot, ND. He may have to wait until the Spring thaw to test those loads.

F106 Fan
01-01-2012, 15:47
One thing I don't like about the Alliant reloading data is that they only provide a single data point. There is no range (min..max) in powder charge.

The latest Speer manual shows 3.9 to 4.4 gr of Bullseye for the 124 gr GDHP. I just don't know that your bullet has the same characteristics as the GDHP.

EDIT: the GDHP seems more likely to be treated as a jacketed bullet.

EDIT: deleted any recommendation to try shooting the things.

The thing is, you are right at the max load assuming the bullet characteristics are identical. You have also picked one of the fastest powders on the planet.

You might Google for 'reloading signs of overpressure' and learn more about how to detect excessive pressure. Unfortunately, when you see it you have already shot it!

EDIT: deleted recommended starting load

Richard

GioaJack
01-01-2012, 15:50
:rofl::rofl: why not just let her shoot the first few first without the divorce? idk just skip the middle man:whistling:


Never, ever, ever let your wife test fire your loads! If something goes wrong and she gets hurt you'll have to take care of her.

If your ex-wife gets hurt she probably deserves it. If law enforcement alleges that you planned the injury you argue that you took her shooting in hope of some, 'maybe we'll get back together sex'.

Any all male jury will acquit you.

I see you have a lot to learn about the finer points of reloading.


Jack

Zombie Steve
01-01-2012, 16:30
Meet your new friend.

http://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/images/D11/64/64836.jpg

MLittle
01-01-2012, 16:42
I've loaded and shot over 5,000 9mm rounds using Bullseye powder. I use 4.5 gr. Bullseye powder, 115 gr. Berry bullets set at an oal of 1.09 inch. Shot these out of my Glock 26, Sig P226 and CZ75Compact. No problems to date.....

Looking at my Lymans is says for 9mm 125gr Jh bullet (not 124gr) you can use between 3.9 and 4.5 gr. Bullseye powder..... so it looks like you're pushing the upper limit on your loading. What I usually do is average the low and high load and use that for my starting loading. I probably would have started out at 4.2 gr of Bullseye.

atakawow
01-01-2012, 16:46
http://i201.photobucket.com/albums/aa91/atakawow/overcrimped.jpg

http://i201.photobucket.com/albums/aa91/atakawow/glockkaboom.jpg

Colorado4Wheel
01-01-2012, 16:47
One thing I don't like about the Alliant reloading data is that they only provide a single data point. There is no range (min..max) in powder charge.

The latest Speer manual shows 3.9 to 4.4 gr of Bullseye for the 124 gr GDHP. I just don't know that your bullet has the same characteristics as the GDHP. Both are plated but that's the limit of my knowledge.


Richard

Gold Bonds are Jacketed Bonded Bullets. They use Jacketed Bullet Data
Berrys are Plated Bullets. You use a combo of Lead and Jacketed data. Basically, you use lead data but expect it to allow you to go a little more with proper testing.

Lyman Lead Data has a 120 gr bullets maxing out at 4.2 grs at a MUCH shorter OAL. So to my eye, using just the single source I have on hand for that powder. Your at MAX or above MAX. Depending how much extra leeway that longer OAL gets you.

F106 Fan
01-01-2012, 16:51
ZombieSteve has a good point. You could disassemble a few rounds and recharge them with 3.9gr, 4.0gr, 4.1 gr, 4.2gr and 4.3 gr.

EDIT: even 3.9 gr may be too hot if GDHP turn out to be jacketed versus plated.
EDIT: based on Speer 125 gr LRN, a starting point of 3.5 gr is indicated.

You might be able to recover the powder but I don't even try. It might make good fertilizer.

You will need to resize the case to recover the neck tension. Perhaps you could remove the depriming pin so that you don't need to reprime the cases. Depriming unfired primers is considred a high-risk proposition. It has never happened to me but I suppose a primer could go bang and light up things around it. This might get interesting if the spent primer container has several unfired primers.

Richard

ponders
01-01-2012, 16:54
so i have too much powder by .2 or .3 grains.. ill just have to use my glock to test them as glocks can handle hotter loads

atakawow
01-01-2012, 16:56
so i have too much powder by .2 or .3 grains.. ill just have to use my glock to test them as glocks can handle hotter loads

Where do you get this information?

WiskyT
01-01-2012, 16:57
Gold Bonds are Jacketed Bonded Bullets. They use Jacketed Bullet Data
Berrys are Plated Bullets. You use a combo of Lead and Jacketed data. Basically, you use lead data but expect it to allow you to go a little more with proper testing.

Lyman Lead Data has a 120 gr bullets maxing out at 4.2 grs at a MUCH shorter OAL. So to my eye, using just the single source I have on hand for that powder. Your at MAX or above MAX. Depending how much extra leeway that longer OAL gets you.

Gold Bond is what you powder your balls with. Gold Dots are plated bullets. The plating on them is pretty substantial, so they may be more like a jacketed bullet for the puroses of reloading.

ponders
01-01-2012, 16:57
Where do you get this information?

the gun shop i go to , the counter people there say glocks can handle +p and +p+ loads.. 4.4 should be about the top of standard pressure, may even be in the low +p range, but they said glock barrels can handle upwards of 43,000 psi

TX expat
01-01-2012, 17:03
Is this thread for real????

WiskyT
01-01-2012, 17:03
One thing I don't like about the Alliant reloading data is that they only provide a single data point. There is no range (min..max) in powder charge.

The latest Speer manual shows 3.9 to 4.4 gr of Bullseye for the 124 gr GDHP. I just don't know that your bullet has the same characteristics as the GDHP. Both are plated but that's the limit of my knowledge.

I would load one round and remove the magazine before shooting it. Do not 'tea cup' the gun! If the round is overcharged, the case may blow out and send hot gases down the mag well. No point in destroying the magazine but there is even less point in getting burned.

I would recover the brass and look for case bulging or pressure signs at the primer. Basically, there should still be a radius at the edge of the primer and the primer strike should not be cratered. On a Glock, there will be a rectangular extrusion with the strike point in the center.

Most loading manuals discuss signs of overpressure.

The thing is, you are right at the max load assuming the bullet characteristics are identical. You have also picked one of the fastest powders on the planet.

You might Google for 'reloading signs of overpressure' and learn more about how to detect excessive pressure. Unfortunately, when you see it you have already shot it!

It should be clear by now that you should have loaded a few at each 0.1 gr from 3.9 gr and up.

Richard

Alliant does give you a range if the loader actually reads the warning. It says that the listed data is max and to reduce that by 10%. I'm sure a few years from now they will list the minimum load and put the "increase by 10% for max" in the warning for people who don't read the directions. Basically, they give you the data, but they don't hand it to you on a silver platter.

ponders
01-01-2012, 17:04
Is this thread for real????

why does everyother person think this thread is fake?? do i need to post a pic of the dam rounds just to prove myself?:faint:

atakawow
01-01-2012, 17:04
the gun shop i go to , the counter people there say glocks can handle +p and +p+ loads.. 4.4 should be about the top of standard pressure, may even be in the low +p range, but they said glock barrels can handle upwards of 43,000 psi

Do you trust your gun shop people or a credible published source? If there's a hot load specifically for Glock pistols, they would have mentioned it in one of the published manuals. I have not seen one.

How do you know YOUR max load will generate the same amount of pressure as the one listed in the manual? Temperature? OAL? Primer? Pistol? Even a slightest reduce in OAL in a tightly packed 9mm case can cause a whole lot of hell.

ponders
01-01-2012, 17:07
Do you trust your gun shop people or a credible published source? If there's a hot load specifically for Glock pistols, they would have mentioned it in one of the published manuals. I have not seen one.

How do you know YOUR max load will generate the same amount of pressure as the one listed in the manual? Temperature? OAL? Primer? Pistol? Even a slightest reduce in OAL in a tightly packed 9mm case can cause a whole lot of hell.


what ever outside temp is on any given day i guess.. cci 500 primer, either glock 26 or m&p 9c OAL 1.155

WiskyT
01-01-2012, 17:15
the gun shop i go to , the counter people there say glocks can handle +p and +p+ loads.. 4.4 should be about the top of standard pressure, may even be in the low +p range, but they said glock barrels can handle upwards of 43,000 psi

The problem is you haven't left yourself any room for error. As a new loader, you could have made some mistakes which combined with your particular barrel, your particular batch of powder etc could cause you problems. It's doubtful that your 4.4 would turn your gun into a hand grenade, but pierced primers or a case blowout aren't out of the question.

Caution is a personal thing. Some people are too cautious IMO. And some aren't cautious enough. I fall in the middle. Personally, I think your load will be okay, but that doesn't count for much if you blow out a case and your mag catch cracks your frame while the mag is being ejected. You won't be injured, but you'll be out the use of your gun and some money.

I used to just go with the max when I only had a Ruger 357 mag to worry about. What could hurt that thing I thought? I found that a max load of Unique with 125JHP was piercing primers and the empties were hard to extract. Another example I have personally had was a max load of Bullseye and 125's that shot great in my Ruger. It was bulging the brass into the extractor area on my buddies SW 19. I noticed it on the first cylinder full. My buddy wanted to keep shooting them, but I cut it off after the first six shots.

WiskyT
01-01-2012, 17:18
why does everyother person think this thread is fake?? do i need to post a pic of the dam rounds just to prove myself?:faint:

Because we get threads like this every other day. My personal BS meter is pretty sensative. If it was pegged out, I wouldn't be responding. Also, we have all loaded our own first rounds, and the urge to shoot them is usually too strong to wait until we've loaded 1000 of them. Maybe you got a 1050 and loaded them in 30 minutes?:supergrin:

unsigned
01-01-2012, 17:21
I never re-use pulled plated bullets. I've seen too many neck tension/setback issues doing that. Copper jacket, no problem.

TX expat
01-01-2012, 17:21
why does everyother person think this thread is fake?? do i need to post a pic of the dam rounds just to prove myself?:faint:

I'm dubious because you've reloaded 1,000 rounds and you obviously haven't so much as picked up a reloading manual and read the quite detailed instructions... If you had, you wouldn't be asking which guns to 'test' hot loads in, you wouldn't have hot loads at all, and you most certainly wouldn't have 1,000 rounds of anything made up without testing it first.

Listen, and please understand I am saying this in all honesty because I don't want to see you or anyone else hurt, please go read the instructions in a loading manual or go buy/borrow "The ABC's of Reloading" and read it. You really need to have a little more appreciation for how dangerous what you are doing is. Not to mention you need to understand why you are doing it. Why have a ton of hand made rounds if they aren't the best performing round for your firearm?

Bottom line, your round may be safe but I wouldn't bet my fingers/hand/eyesight on it. If you really do want to learn, then invest the time to learn how to reload the correct way, for the right reasons.

jellis11
01-01-2012, 17:22
lovin this.
and learning.

F106 Fan
01-01-2012, 17:23
Reading along at page 730 of Speer #14, I also believe the GDHPs are jacketed. There's a lot of speculation on the Internet and some believe they are plated albeit with a much thicker wall than Berry's.

I can't get to plated when I see the formed jacket before the lead portion is inserted.

So, since I can't find published data for 124 gr lead bullets (the proper data for Berry's), I can only compare .45 ACP 200 gr WCs with Bullseye.

The lead version lists 4.2 to 4.6 gr and the TMJ (also the 200 gr GDHP) version lists 5.2 to 5.8 gr.

So, lead uses a full grain less powder than the jacketed bullets in this example. This would lead me to be very concerned about loading Berry's bullets with GDHP data.

Richard

Colorado4Wheel
01-01-2012, 17:26
I've loaded and shot over 5,000 9mm rounds using Bullseye powder. I use 4.5 gr. Bullseye powder, 115 gr. Berry bullets set at an oal of 1.09 inch. Shot these out of my Glock 26, Sig P226 and CZ75Compact. No problems to date.....

Looking at my Lymans is says for 9mm 125gr Jh bullet (not 124gr) you can use between 3.9 and 4.5 gr. Bullseye powder..... so it looks like you're pushing the upper limit on your loading. What I usually do is average the low and high load and use that for my starting loading. I probably would have started out at 4.2 gr of Bullseye.

Keep in mind you should be using Lead Data for Berry's

http://www.berrysmfg.com/faq-q9-c1-How_do_I_load_Berrys_Preferred_Plated_Bullets.aspx


Plated bullets occupy a position between cast bullets and jacketed bullets. They are soft lead, but have a hard outer shell on them. When loading plated bullets we have found best results using low- to mid-range jacketed data in the load manual. You must use data for a bullet that has the same weight and profile as the one you are loading. Do not exceed mid-range loads. Do not use magnum loads.

So your math formula for getting your starting load is really more appropriate for figuring out the MAX load. Even then it's just a point that should be worked up to not just started at.

ponders
01-01-2012, 17:28
Because we get threads like this every other day. My personal BS meter is pretty sensative. If it was pegged out, I wouldn't be responding. Also, we have all loaded our own first rounds, and the urge to shoot them is usually too strong to wait until we've loaded 1000 of them. Maybe you got a 1050 and loaded them in 30 minutes?:supergrin:


no i hand prime because the loadmaster primer system sucks. and i had a few boxes of wwb that i used up over the months of reloading,, i tend to shoot 200 rounds or a little more everytime i go to the range. i use the emptys to reload obviously lol but my reloads just kept adding up while i was using the factory loads

Colorado4Wheel
01-01-2012, 17:29
Reading along at page 730 of Speer #14, I also believe the GDHPs are jacketed. There's a lot of speculation on the Internet and some believe they are plated albeit with a much thicker wall than Berry's.

I can't get to plated when I see the formed jacket before the lead portion is inserted.

So, since I can't find published data for 124 gr lead bullets (the proper data for Berry's), I can only compare .45 ACP 200 gr WCs with Bullseye.

The lead version lists 4.2 to 4.6 gr and the TMJ (also the 200 gr GDHP) version lists 5.2 to 5.8 gr.

So, lead uses a full grain less powder than the jacketed bullets in this example. This would lead me to be very concerned about loading Berry's bullets with GDHP data.

Richard


They call it a jacket.

http://www.speer-ammo.com/products/gold_dot_const.aspx

Uni-Cor technology bonds an incredibly uniform jacket to the core—one molecule at a time.

ptmccain
01-01-2012, 17:30
Shooting reloads in Glocks.

Not. A. Good. Idea.

Colorado4Wheel
01-01-2012, 17:32
I think I need to stop reading this thread.

ponders
01-01-2012, 17:32
Shooting reloads in Glocks.

Not. A. Good. Idea.

i dont think the gun can tell the difference

GioaJack
01-01-2012, 17:32
Shooting reloads in Glocks.

Not. A. Good. Idea.


I assume you're exercising traditional New Year's Day sarcasm?


Jack

F106 Fan
01-01-2012, 17:33
Alliant does give you a range if the loader actually reads the warning. It says that the listed data is max and to reduce that by 10%. I'm sure a few years from now they will list the minimum load and put the "increase by 10% for max" in the warning for people who don't read the directions. Basically, they give you the data, but they don't hand it to you on a silver platter.

I think I was referring to the data books that give a range of velocities versus powder charge for a given bullet and powder. More often than not, I want to load somewhere in midrange and just reducing the max load by 5% isn't very satisfying. I would like to know what velocity to expect.

Alliant just gives one powder charge and one velocity.

Richard

AA#5
01-01-2012, 17:41
According to my Speer Loading Manual #13, 4.4 Gr. Bullseye with a 124 gr. is MAXIMUM.

ponders
01-01-2012, 17:43
According to my Speer Loading Manual #13, 4.4 Gr. Bullseye with a 124 gr. is MAXIMUM.

i understand its maximum, but whats wrong with maximum? :whistling:

F106 Fan
01-01-2012, 17:51
The more I think about this load, the more nervous I get. Sure, there is the headroom of a +P+ barrel but I have NEVER seen data for these loads. NEVER...

I have a little booklet "The Complete Reloading Manual for the 9mm Luger" which is caliber specific. It lists a Speer 125 gr LRN with 3.5 to 3.8 gr Bullseye. I realize this isn't quite the same as a 124 gr plated bullet but the difference in max charge (3.8 gr) versus what is already loaded (4.4 gr) is substantial.

I guess I would have to rethink creating some lighter loads. I might start down around 3.5 gr and work up slowly. But I would definitely NOT just go shoot the things.

Richard

ponders
01-01-2012, 17:55
The more I think about this load, the more nervous I get. Sure, there is the headroom of a +P+ barrel but I have NEVER seen data for these loads. NEVER...

I have a little booklet "The Complete Reloading Manual for the 9mm Luger" which is caliber specific. It lists a Speer 125 gr LRN with 3.5 to 3.8 gr Bullseye. I realize this isn't quite the same as a 124 gr plated bullet but the difference in max charge (3.8 gr) versus what is already loaded (4.4 gr) is substantial.

I guess I would have to rethink creating some lighter loads. I might start down around 3.5 gr and work up slowly. But I would definitely NOT just go shoot the things.

Richard

3.5 ? would that even cycle the slide?

glockaviator
01-01-2012, 17:59
You mean you're supposed to shoot them? I mean, they are fun to make, but get real??????????

WiskyT
01-01-2012, 18:00
3.5 ? would that even cycle the slide?

3.5 easily cycles my G17 with a 125 lead bullet.

ponders
01-01-2012, 18:00
You mean you're supposed to shoot them? I mean, they are fun to make, but get real??????????


ok im lost on that comment, get real? what is that suppose to mean? :dunno:

ponders
01-01-2012, 18:01
3.5 easily cycles my G17 with a 125 lead bullet.


lead and plated are two different things

WiskyT
01-01-2012, 18:02
The more I think about this load, the more nervous I get. Sure, there is the headroom of a +P+ barrel but I have NEVER seen data for these loads. NEVER...

I have a little booklet "The Complete Reloading Manual for the 9mm Luger" which is caliber specific. It lists a Speer 125 gr LRN with 3.5 to 3.8 gr Bullseye. I realize this isn't quite the same as a 124 gr plated bullet but the difference in max charge (3.8 gr) versus what is already loaded (4.4 gr) is substantial.

I guess I would have to rethink creating some lighter loads. I might start down around 3.5 gr and work up slowly. But I would definitely NOT just go shoot the things.

Richard

I think the 3.8 on that is probably due to accuracy with the swaged Speer bullet. My cast bullets aren't much harder and accuracy goes to pot with much more than that. I get keyholing and lots of lead in the barrel. That's why Lyman lists higher data with their harder #2 alloy bullets. The harder bullet can handle more pressure.

TX expat
01-01-2012, 18:03
I've read enough and I'm calling troll...

Billua
01-01-2012, 18:05
Interesting discussion

IBTL

cowboy1964
01-01-2012, 18:05
I use around 4.8gr of Unique with Berry's 124gr with 1.15" OAL and they are just were I want them. Too too hot, not too cold.

GioaJack
01-01-2012, 18:06
3.5 ? would that even cycle the slide?


That's exactly the kind of question that learning to work up loads answers.

Avoid potential costly shortcuts by learning to do it correctly and hopefully you'll never be in the position of having to pull a thousand bullets.

Get a few tens of thousands of reloads under your belt and you can comfortably start to play with max velocities and pressures. Until then spend your time learning the basics.

I certainly mean no offense but some of your questions and statements lead me to believe that at this moment you have less than a working grasp of basic loading. That can lead to a lot of money replacing guns.


Jack

F106 Fan
01-01-2012, 18:11
3.5 ? would that even cycle the slide?

I don't know but neither do you and you're the one holding the gun. I think the consensus is that you are well beyond max with those loads.

The problem with the 4.4 gr max in the Speer manual is that it is for a bullet you aren't using. For a given caliber, lead bullets take less powder than jacketed bullets. Most of us are now assuming that GDHPs should be treated as jacketed and therefore the max load for a GDHP is too much for a lead bullet (or Berry's plated bullet).

It costs nothing to make up a couple of light rounds just to find a starting point. The limit is whether the bullet comes out of the barrel, not how well the slide moves. And, yes, it's worth looking to be certain the bullet did leave the barrel.

Here's where I come out on plated bullets: I won't use them until there is published data specifically for the bullet. If I want a metal jacket of some type, I will buy from Montana Gold or Precision Delta. I will also buy Winchester FMJ's. If I want to shoot lead, I use data for lead, not GDHP. This whole 'plated' thing is messing up what used to be a very simple process.

The good news is that I load mostly .45 ACP (230 gr FMJ, 230 gr LRN and 200 gr LSWC) and that data has been around for decades.

It's not like plated bullets are any cheaper than FMJ's.

Richard

Colorado4Wheel
01-01-2012, 18:14
According to my Speer Loading Manual #13, 4.4 Gr. Bullseye with a 124 gr. is MAXIMUM.

Load data is useless with out OAL and Type of bullet.

WHY is everyone just throwing out crappy data from a variety of sources with out even considering the source is NOT directly applicable to the type of bullet he loaded. It's just really sloppy advice. And Ponders doesn't seem to understand the difference at all.

F106 Fan
01-01-2012, 18:15
lead and plated are two different things

Well, not really. Berry's is pretty specific about using the data for lead bullets. Of course, that's a lazy position for them to take. The lead loads will have the least amount of powder when compared to jacketed.

You have to start somewhere when working up a load and the best place to start is on the light side, not the heavy side.

Richard

WiskyT
01-01-2012, 18:17
lead and plated are two different things

Yes, and based on my experience, it would cycle with a plated bullet as well. It's okay to make generalizations and assumptions about things like that when they involve the bottom end of the loading spectrum.

WiskyT
01-01-2012, 18:21
It's not like plated bullets are any cheaper than FMJ's.

Richard

They used to be. Lead was cheap. Plated were a little more and for someone who didn't cast (me), the plated were a nice cheap alternative to expensive jacketed bullets. Nowadays, you are correct. They are all expensive and the plated aren't much cheaper, if at all, than jacketed.

HexHead
01-01-2012, 18:22
.

A thousand loaded rounds without testing the load? Even I wouldn't do something like that.



And even I didn't do something like that.

Zombie Steve
01-01-2012, 18:32
http://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/images/D11/64/64836.jpg

fredj338
01-01-2012, 18:38
but i sjust finished reloading a box of 1000 berrys double struck 124 gr 9mm boolits. :whistling:

i loaded them with 4.4 grains of bullseye powder and seated them to 1.155 or so depth. is this 4.4 grains erring on the +p side or is this load going to be OK?:embarassed::embarassed:

SO let me get this straight. You are a noob reloader, just threw a dart & loaded 1000 rds & NOW you want to know if they will work????:shocked: Darwin is truely alive & well or your are a NewYears troll or both.:whistling:
the gun shop i go to , the counter people there say glocks can handle +p and +p+ loads.. 4.4 should be about the top of standard pressure, may even be in the low +p range, but they said glock barrels can handle upwards of 43,000 psi
Gunshop employees are some of THE most ignorant people I have ever met concerning firearms, but esxpecially on matter of reloading. Few of them actually reload & the ones that do really have no idea what they are doing. Seen it many, many times.

F106 Fan
01-01-2012, 18:41
Or the Hornady collet style bullet puller. This will definitely trash the plated bullet but if there is any crimp at all, even the ballistic approach won't result in a reusable bullet. It's probably going to be a write-off in terms of bullets and powder.

http://www.hornady.com/store/Cam-Lock-Bullet-Puller-1-Each/

There's probably a reason why I have both styles of bullet pullers.

Richard

fredj338
01-01-2012, 18:45
Or the Hornady collet style bullet puller. This will definitely trash the plated bullet but if there is any crimp at all, even the ballistic approach won't result in a reusable bullet. It's probably going to be a write-off in terms of bullets and powder.

http://www.hornady.com/store/Cam-Lock-Bullet-Puller-1-Each/

There's probably a reason why I have both styles of bullet pullers.

Richard

Pulled plated bullets are almost useless, especially if over crimped. You'll damage the plating & reloading will give crappy results. The OP F---ed up, violating the rules of safe relaoding; working up your loads & loading no more than 10 test rds. Happy bullet pulling!

Colorado4Wheel
01-01-2012, 18:51
Well, he loaded LONG. So that helps. He is probably at the upper end of the range. Maybe at MAX or beyond. As would already suggested, it wouldn't hurt to load another 40 bullets starting lower and work it up to what you loaded. If you have a friend with a chrono you could chrono them and at least have a idea if they are safe.

I am going to guess the OP bought 1000 of those bullets and loaded all of them. I am also going to guess he will shoot them as is.

atakawow
01-01-2012, 18:52
I use around 4.8gr of Unique with Berry's 124gr with 1.15" OAL and they are just were I want them. Too too hot, not too cold.

Wonderful load! I use the exact same 4.8 Unique with a 124gr lead boolit. The OP, however, is using Bullseye, a very different breed.

ponders
01-01-2012, 19:07
Well, he loaded LONG. So that helps. He is probably at the upper end of the range. Maybe at MAX or beyond. As would already suggested, it wouldn't hurt to load another 40 bullets starting lower and work it up to what you loaded. If you have a friend with a chrono you could chrono them and at least have a idea if they are safe.

I am going to guess the OP bought 1000 of those bullets and loaded all of them. I am also going to guess he will shoot them as is.


probably will shoot them as is, not wasting 200 + dollars, call me a tight *** but it is what it is:whistling::supergrin:.

im not trolling, when i started this thread it was a legit question

HexHead
01-01-2012, 19:14
l.

Here's where I come out on plated bullets: I won't use them until there is published data specifically for the bullet. If I want a metal jacket of some type, I will buy from Montana Gold or Precision Delta. I will also buy Winchester FMJ's. If I want to shoot lead, I use data for lead, not GDHP. This whole 'plated' thing is messing up what used to be a very simple process.

The good news is that I load mostly .45 ACP (230 gr FMJ, 230 gr LRN and 200 gr LSWC) and that data has been around for decades.

It's not like plated bullets are any cheaper than FMJ's.



I think you're right on this. I want to load 124gr for my Glocks and my dealer has Rainier RN in stock. I'm having real trouble finding reliable load data to use.
These plated bullet makers need to stop this "use lead bullet data or midrange JHP data" nonsense and publish some real loading data.

WiskyT
01-01-2012, 19:19
I think you're right on this. I want to load 124gr for my Glocks and my dealer has Rainier RN in stock. I'm having real trouble finding reliable load data to use.
These plated bullet makers need to stop this "use lead bullet data or midrange JHP data" nonsense and publish some real loading data.

I think if you use them for what they are intended for, moderate velocity, then you are plenty safe using lead data. For that though, you could just use lead bullets and save some money.

If you want top end performance (velocity), you would be better off using jacketed bullets and corresponding data.

TX expat
01-01-2012, 19:23
probably will shoot them as is, not wasting 200 + dollars, call me a tight *** but it is what it is:whistling::supergrin:.

im not trolling, when i started this thread it was a legit question

Look, I just went and checked my Lyman manual. It gives 3.8 to 4.2 max for a 120 gr. lead bullet with your choice of powder. Berry's plated run off lead data and your bullet is heavier. Heavier = use less powder. Your loads are overcharged. I don't care if someone else has done it and swears by the load; you'd be rolling the dice with every shot unless you work up to it, KNOW what overpressure signs to look for, and then verify that your load is OK as is... You obviously don't know what you are doing and it's pretty clear that if you aren't trolling, you really don't care to learn, otherwise you'd actually take the advice of experienced folks that actually understand what they are saying.

Shoot 'em if you want to but you may be replacing the firearm pretty fast, so I'm not sure how that's gonna fit into your tightaZZ mentality but it's your equipment so knock yourself out.

Zombie Steve
01-01-2012, 19:26
That's what I was thinking... cheaper than replacing the gun.

If you have a framing hammer, you could start hitting your hand now so you're used to it by the time you get to the range.

WiskyT
01-01-2012, 19:27
Look, I just went and checked my Lyman manual. It gives 3.8 to 4.2 max for a 120 gr. lead bullet with your choice of powder. Berry's plated run off lead data and your bullet is heavier. Heavier = use less powder. Your loads are overcharged. I don't care if someone else has done it and swears by the load; you'd be rolling the dice with every shot unless you work up to it. KNOW what overpressure signs to look for, and then verify that your load is OK as is... You obviously don't know what you are doing and it's pretty clear that if you aren't trolling, you really don't care to learn, otherwise you'd actually take the advice of experienced folks that actually understand what they are saying.

Shoot 'em if you want to but you may be replacing the firearm pretty fast, so I'm not sure how that's gonna fit into your tightaZZ mentality but it's your equipment so knock yourself out.

A pure lead core with a thin coating of soft copper doesn't usually shoot well with a max load of something like Bullseye. I have some old West Coast plated 155 40cal bullets that keyhole like a SOB even below max with BE. I have to load them down to mousefart levels or use Unique. In that respect, plated bullets are very much like a cast bullet. The OP likely won't notice the difference though.

Colorado4Wheel
01-01-2012, 19:31
My vote is for a sub gun on full auto.

TX expat
01-01-2012, 19:40
My vote is for a sub gun on full auto.

And the Bubba battle cry of "hey ya'll, watch this!"

F106 Fan
01-01-2012, 19:42
At night with a high speed camera!

Richard

GioaJack
01-01-2012, 19:53
probably will shoot them as is, not wasting 200 + dollars, call me a tight *** but it is what it is:whistling::supergrin:.

im not trolling, when i started this thread it was a legit question


There's really no reason why you'd lose anything but time and a little effort.

Since this is your first foray into loading I'm guessing you're not a national or even state level competition bullseye shooter otherwise you'd have been loading long before this to get to that level.

Although pulled plated bullets will suffer accuracy degradation for the type of shooting you most likely do, plinking, short range SD type practice, etc., two-inch group accuracy is not a major concern.

What difference does it make if the damaged bullets are only capable of six-inch groups at fifteen yards, you still get the practice of pulling the trigger and more importantly you can use those thousand bullets to learn how to work up loads and at the same time insure yourself that you're not going to damage your gun with your present questionable load.

Unfortunately I have to disagree with 106Fan, (Richard), on one point. I know of no reason not to reuse the powder from pulled rounds... there is nothing in the process that effects the powder in any way. If you're more comfortable with it as you pull each bullet simply dump the powder into an empty powder measure rather than incorporating it into you original powder container. (Even lead bullets with soft lube will not contaminate powder.)

Pull fifty rounds a night, (it doesn't take long), then you have enough to make four different work-ups with a few left over for screw-ups.

Seems like a safe and simple solution... but then again I'm a simple kind of guy.


Jack

RustyFN
01-01-2012, 19:56
At night with a high speed camera!

Richard



I'm in. :popcorn:

lead and plated are two different things

Yes and plated and jacketed are two different things also.

What I get a kick out of is when a new guy like this comes asking for help and everybody tries to help and all he wants to do is argue against what everybody is trying to tell him.

Dude go shoot them. Have fun. Wear 2 or 3 pairs of gloves incase. I know you don't want to hear it but I wouldn't shoot them if it was me.

Zombie Steve
01-01-2012, 19:57
And the Bubba battle cry of "hey ya'll, watch this!"

Hold muh beer!

RustyFN
01-01-2012, 20:02
You never know, shooting those loads might be almost as much fun as this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xaghVWhqXHQ

F106 Fan
01-01-2012, 20:02
There's really no reason why you'd lose anything but time and a little effort.

Since this is your first foray into loading I'm guessing you're not a national or even state level competition bullseye shooter otherwise you'd have been loading long before this to get to that level.

Although pulled plated bullets will suffer accuracy degradation for the type of shooting you most likely do, plinking, short range SD type practice, etc., two-inch group accuracy is not a major concern.

What difference does it make if the damaged bullets are only capable of six-inch groups at fifteen yards, you still get the practice of pulling the trigger and more importantly you can use those thousand bullets to learn how to work up loads and at the same time insure yourself that you're not going to damage your gun with your present questionable load.

Unfortunately I have to disagree with 106Fan, (Richard), on one point. I know of no reason not to reuse the powder from pulled rounds... there is nothing in the process that effects the powder in any way. If you're more comfortable with it as you pull each bullet simply dump the powder into an empty powder measure rather than incorporating it into you original powder container. (Even lead bullets with soft lube will not contaminate powder.)

Pull fifty rounds a night, (it doesn't take long), then you have enough to make four different work-ups with a few left over for screw-ups.

Seems like a safe and simple solution... but then again I'm a simple kind of guy.


Jack


I'm with Jack, pull them and start over. I don't personally save the powder but I don't normally pull more than 4 or 5 bullets. I just dump the powder in the trash can and move on.

Now, for 1000 bullets, I might have to change my mind. That's a heck of a lot of powder to dump in the trash. I might just spread that over the lawn. Actually, I think maybe Jack has the right idea. With that much powder at stake maybe it's worth recovering.

Richard

WiskyT
01-01-2012, 20:05
You never know, shooting those loads might be almost as much fun as this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xaghVWhqXHQ

There isn't enough room for the amount of :rofl: it would take to accurately describe my reaction to that video.

n2extrm
01-01-2012, 20:07
probably will shoot them as is, not wasting 200 + dollars, call me a tight *** but it is what it is:whistling::supergrin:.

im not trolling, when i started this thread it was a legit question

How much is a Glock selling for these days? How about a set of fingers? Some stitches got to be pricey too? :whistling:

Seriously when they publish load data it is based on a number of specific items that were used in that test yielding that result in that gun or test barrel. As soon as you change anything at all you will get different results. A slight difference in bullet style, bearing surface, profile and you have a major change in the end results. A different gun, cases or primer and things can go south fast.

A young lady at our local range caught a piece of a revolver in her face when the revolver decided to come apart. The shooter who was firing the revolver was a hand loader. He had explained to me he felt the load data that was published was "too conservative" and the testing he did showed the velocity was below what was expected. This was further supported by the felt recoil being much lower compared against a popular commercially available ammo. .2 grain more powder and it should still be below the 357 mag pressure the revolver was rated for. As I said the gun suffered a catastrophic failure and someone was injured for innocently shooting in the next lane.

In the end it is your gun, your hands and your decision, but you are starting off breaking all the rules. Never a good place to start. Just try not to hurt the guy standing next to you in the process of finding out what will happen.

GioaJack
01-01-2012, 20:11
See that, F106 Fan agrees with me, he is obviously a gentleman of refinement and intelligence... the rest of you guys are slugs.

OH, hey, look... time for more pills. Yippee!


Jack

n2extrm
01-01-2012, 20:14
Yes I just save the powder when I have to pull a few. You can use it over.

As Jack stated the bullets are still useable, they may not be the most accurate but they will work and you and you will still have fun shooting.

gforester
01-01-2012, 20:25
I don't throw anything away. When I have to break down bullets I save and reuse all the components. Hell, If I reloaded for shotgun I would fill them with my spent, decapped primers.

See, Ponders, you aren't the only cheep-*** around here. :rofl:

TX expat
01-01-2012, 20:26
Hold muh beer!

Pfffttt. Ya only need one hand to shoot those bunny fart loads, no need for anyone to hold it!

Zombie Steve
01-01-2012, 20:31
Pfffttt. Ya only need one hand to shoot those bunny fart loads, no need for anyone to hold it!

You forgot about the scotch in my other hand.

TX expat
01-01-2012, 20:35
You forgot about the scotch in my other hand.

LOL. I knew there was a good comeback there, just didn't think it'd be scotch.

shotgunred
01-01-2012, 21:25
He obviously wants to shoot them.

You know they say you can't cure stupid.

Zombie Steve
01-01-2012, 21:31
LOL. I knew there was a good comeback there, just didn't think it'd be scotch.

All this talk is making me thirsty. I haven't had any of the hard stuff for a while, but I have some Bourbon I wouldn't mind sipping while I watch the youtube video of ponders shooting his 1,000 rounds.

TX Archer
01-01-2012, 21:40
This is a great education for a new reloader (me). If the gun blows up, I'll learn that it's not safe to shoot reloads in a Glock. If it doesn't, I'll learn that it's ok to go balls-to-the-wall and ignore what overly cautious people call "safety".

Zombie Steve
01-01-2012, 21:42
This is a great education for a new reloader (me). If the gun blows up, I'll learn that it's not safe to shoot reloads in a Glock. If it doesn't, I'll learn that it's ok to go balls-to-the-wall and ignore what overly cautious people call "safety".

http://glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1391305

PCJim
01-01-2012, 22:26
This is a great education for a new reloader (me). If the gun blows up, I'll learn that it's not safe to shoot reloads in a Glock. If it doesn't, I'll learn that it's ok to go balls-to-the-wall and ignore what overly cautious people call "safety".

NO, that's not what you should learn. There is absolutely nothing wrong with shooting reloads (SAFE RELOADS) in a Glock, or any other firearm. What you will learn, should the OP not heed all the advice given, is that you don't shoot reloads that are known to be over charged in a Glock or any other firearm.

And, should the OP shoot those thousand rounds and not injure himself, someone nearby or damage his firearm, you should learn that he got very lucky.

Personally, I'm just very glad he isn't in my neck of the woods. I wouldn't want him standing anywhere close to me at the range.

shotgunred
01-01-2012, 22:59
Steve's pages shows Bullseye From 3.2 grains to 4.9 grains.

But he has been known to publish P++ data.

AA#5
01-01-2012, 23:18
i understand its maximum, but whats wrong with maximum? :whistling:

Well, nothing as long as you've worked up to that load while looking for signs of excess pressure along the way.

Another issue: Remember that when a case is repeatedly reloaded, it's not a good idea to load maximum all the time. What's the purpose when you're shooting paper or steel at the range?

TX Archer
01-02-2012, 00:13
NO, that's not what you should learn. There is absolutely nothing wrong with shooting reloads (SAFE RELOADS) in a Glock, or any other firearm. What you will learn, should the OP not heed all the advice given, is that you don't shoot reloads that are known to be over charged in a Glock or any other firearm.

And, should the OP shoot those thousand rounds and not injure himself, someone nearby or damage his firearm, you should learn that he got very lucky.

Personally, I'm just very glad he isn't in my neck of the woods. I wouldn't want him standing anywhere close to me at the range.
It was sarcasm. Sorry, I thought that was obvious.

WiskyT
01-02-2012, 00:15
It was sarcasm. Sorry, I thought that was obvious.

Take it easy on him, we don't usually see that kind of thing around here.

SPIN2010
01-02-2012, 00:24
Go back to the dealer that said "X" and borrow his range gun to shoot those reloads. Q.E.D. :supergrin:

meleors
01-02-2012, 02:40
Get that man some WTF powder!

kcbrown
01-02-2012, 06:21
You gotta remember, just because it works in someone else's gun doesn't mean it is safe in yours. Every gun and barrel are different. It may and it may not, that's why you should start low and work your load up slowly looking for pressure sign's.

And yet, factory ammunition tends to run towards the high end in terms of pressure (as evidenced by the OAL, velocity, and recoil characteristics), and it works in most guns.

Why should reloads be any different, unless they're on the very edge of pressure or dimensions?


No, I'm not convinced that there's so much variation between firearms that one would KB with a given load while another would be well under maximum pressure, unless the former is old enough that the metallurgy just didn't support modern higher-pressure rounds. You know, like the ones that were made back when Jack was middle-aged (a bit more than a century ago or so, by my reckoning...). :supergrin:

Shadyscott69
01-02-2012, 06:32
Well, did you shoot them yet? If so, are you holding a pencil in your mouth to type your reply? :supergrin:

n2extrm
01-02-2012, 07:14
And yet, factory ammunition tends to run towards the high end in terms of pressure (as evidenced by the OAL, velocity, and recoil characteristics), and it works in most guns.

Why should reloads be any different, unless they're on the very edge of pressure or dimensions?


No, I'm not convinced that there's so much variation between firearms that one would KB with a given load while another would be well under maximum pressure, unless the former is old enough that the metallurgy just didn't support modern higher-pressure rounds. You know, like the ones that were made back when Jack was middle-aged (a bit more than a century ago or so, by my reckoning...). :supergrin:

It's not the metal thats the issue. It's the chamber, the barrel, the ramp all the dimensional differences. Factory ammo is based on the normal range for most guns across the board, as is the saami specs for AOL. SOme people will load a good bit longer or shorter then saami specs when they develop a load for a specific firearm.

Pressure and perceived recoil are absolutely not related. Don't fall into that trap. Just because a factory Speer Gold-dot kicks harder then what you made, it doesn't mean you have room to increase pressure in your reloads. Recoil is more physics then straight pressure. It has to do with burn rates, weight of the projectile and the firearm as well.

BUG'S
01-02-2012, 07:30
To test your "load" duct tape Glock to tree; tie string to trigger; make string long enough so you can hide behind another tree & test fire. :rofl:

WiskyT
01-02-2012, 08:03
And yet, factory ammunition tends to run towards the high end in terms of pressure (as evidenced by the OAL, velocity, and recoil characteristics), and it works in most guns.

Why should reloads be any different, unless they're on the very edge of pressure or dimensions?


No, I'm not convinced that there's so much variation between firearms that one would KB with a given load while another would be well under maximum pressure, unless the former is old enough that the metallurgy just didn't support modern higher-pressure rounds. You know, like the ones that were made back when Jack was middle-aged (a bit more than a century ago or so, by my reckoning...). :supergrin:

I agree with this. This is what I was hinting at in my post earlier about levels of caution. I pulled an old Ranger 147 SXT (just because I HAD to know what was inside). It had about 3.5-4.0 grains of powder yet it does over 1000fps and I don't remember the OAL, but it's about 1.100". That is fast powder, short OAL, high velocity, heavy bullet, tiny case, and offered for use in any 9mm out there. It's all of the things we are supposed to be a skeered of and it is fine to shoot in any 9mm without "working up".

I don't want to go so far as to say the OP would be okay shooting those rounds. I don't want to post advice that is contrary to the safe practices that are included in the WARNING in every reloading manual, and I would have worked up to that load personally. That said, I don't think his gun will blow up assuming he did everything else properly. He might get some pierced primers or bulged cases, but I think his biggest problem is that those bullets will likely fly like a drunken pilot with a stewardess in his lap.

Colorado4Wheel
01-02-2012, 08:06
No, I'm not convinced that there's so much variation between firearms that one would KB with a given load while another would be well under maximum pressure, unless the former is old enough that the metallurgy just didn't support modern higher-pressure rounds. You know, like the ones that were made back when Jack was middle-aged (a bit more than a century ago or so, by my reckoning...). :supergrin:

I am of the opinion that guns KB due to massively overpressure loads. Not weak cases and other excuses for those that made a mistake. I can't count the amount of split cases I have had. Even a blow out at the base of the case (classic KB persons excuse "Look it was the case") doesn't blow up the gun. Doesn't even hurt the gun. People blow up their guns because they put way to much powder in the case.


http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r215/98sr20ve/DSC_3308.jpg

WiskyT
01-02-2012, 08:16
I am of the opinion that guns KB due to massively overpressure loads. Not weak cases and other excuses for those that made a mistake. I can't count the amount of split cases I have had. Even a blow out at the base of the case (classic KB persons excuse "Look it was the case") doesn't blow up the gun. Doesn't even hurt the gun. People blow up their guns because they put way to much powder in the case.


http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r215/98sr20ve/DSC_3308.jpg

Agreed. Uh oh, maybe the Mayans are right. I hope this isn't the sixth seal being broken.

TX expat
01-02-2012, 09:25
I think that some of you might be missing the overall point. It's not just about the overcharged load. If it hasn't been made pretty obvious by now, the OP has no idea what he's doing. He may not actually even be reading his scale correctly. He may have those bullets crimped down so far that the first one is going to cause a massive failure. If he had any real knowledge of what he was doing, maybe there wouldn't be so many reasons to doubt his creation. He doesn't though, so there is.

Sure some factory ammo has some high pressures, but all that may separate an standard from a +P round is an 8-10% pressure gain. Now whichever one of you that has done actual pressure tests and cares to post some valid information about what that takes to achieve, then be my guest. I realize that I don't know that answer, so there's no way I'm going to say that the OP is anywhere near OK with those... We won't even bother adding that those higher pressure rounds are all tested extensively with proper equipment and I'm pretty sure they don't reuse any overstressed brass during their testing.

fredj338
01-02-2012, 09:59
This is a great education for a new reloader (me). If the gun blows up, I'll learn that it's not safe to shoot reloads in a Glock. If it doesn't, I'll learn that it's ok to go balls-to-the-wall and ignore what overly cautious people call "safety".

Ah, you have read Darwins's book on reloading I see.:whistling: Noobs that think they know better, then blow themselves up, well, ya gotta wonder how they even make it out of the shower in the morning.

fredj338
01-02-2012, 10:03
And yet, factory ammunition tends to run towards the high end in terms of pressure (as evidenced by the OAL, velocity, and recoil characteristics), and it works in most guns.

Why should reloads be any different, unless they're on the very edge of pressure or dimensions?
No, I'm not convinced that there's so much variation between firearms that one would KB with a given load while another would be well under maximum pressure, unless the former is old enough that the metallurgy just didn't support modern higher-pressure rounds. You know, like the ones that were made back when Jack was middle-aged (a bit more than a century ago or so, by my reckoning...). :supergrin:
Seriously have to ask that? The ammo the manuf puts together is pressure tested using specific components. Reloaders are cobbling together ammo w/ mixed components & at best a chronograph & some knowledge of how to read pressures. A huge diff. Without pressure equip, you really have no idea that when you use plated for lead or jacketed, what that does to pressures, you can only make an educated guess. Not to mention manuf rarely if ever use the canister powders available to us. SO measureing the powder in a factory load doesn't tell you much. Sure, it may be a small charge, but there is no way to equate that to what the reloader is using to make their ammo.:whistling:

IndyGunFreak
01-02-2012, 10:12
I may not be of sound mind right at the moment but I think someone may be having a bit of New Year's fun with us.

A thousand loaded rounds without testing the load? Even I wouldn't do something like that.

(Well, maybe I would but I expect other people to be smarter than me.)


Jack

Man, I work back to back 16's over the holiday weekend, and I miss the party.. :)

Come on Jack.. where's your spirit of adventure! 1000rds w/o testing?

Personally, you'd have to be borderline insane to do this, so despite his posts to the contrary, I think he's having some fun with us (notice he used a Loadmaster also.. I think this was bait to start a press war :)) If he really did this, he needs to put away his reloading equipment, and do some more learning/reading on this hobby.


I certainly mean no offense but some of your questions and statements lead me to believe that at this moment you have less than a working grasp of basic loading. That can lead to a lot of money replacing guns.


Jack

This bears repeating.

redbrd
01-02-2012, 10:16
In the future ask questions here first. Lots of experience here. If I were the op I would do as suggested and reload some test runs before getting into that lot. Here is question for the op why load Max for range ammo? It uses more powder kicks more and pushes the saftey envelope. What's to gain?

fredj338
01-02-2012, 10:19
In the future ask questions here first. Lots of experience here. If I were the op I would do as suggested and reload some test runs before getting into that lot. Here is question for the op why load Max for range ammo? It uses more powder kicks more and pushes the saftey envelope. What's to gain?

You won't have to clean the gun after a few rounds of untested WTF ammo. You can just throw it away.:tongueout:

FLSlim
01-02-2012, 10:21
Haaa, this post was bound to generate some great responses!

IndyGunFreak
01-02-2012, 10:23
You won't have to clean the gun after a few rounds of untested WTF ammo. You can just throw it away.:tongueout:

WTF powder! How could I forget. :)

In the future ask questions here first. Lots of experience here. If I were the op I would do as suggested and reload some test runs before getting into that lot. Here is question for the op why load Max for range ammo? It uses more powder kicks more and pushes the saftey envelope. What's to gain?

The thing is, you ask anyone here, no matter their experience level.. if they tell you they are trying a completely new load (be it caliber, or a powder they've never used, etc..) I guarantee almost all of us would do a few small test batches before running off a thousand.

To do otherwise just defies common sense. This thread has went from humoring me, to alarming me.. :)

RustyFN
01-02-2012, 10:59
Unless I missed it we don't know how he was metering the powder and if it was a powder measure how he set it up. From what I have read so far I'm wondering how close he is to that 4.4 load. I wouldn't be surprised if he had some around the 4.6-4.8 range.

ponders
01-02-2012, 12:30
Well, did you shoot them yet? If so, are you holding a pencil in your mouth to type your reply? :supergrin:

:rofl::rofl: they are fine

n2extrm
01-02-2012, 12:31
Unless I missed it we don't know how he was metering the powder and if it was a powder measure how he set it up. From what I have read so far I'm wondering how close he is to that 4.4 load. I wouldn't be surprised if he had some around the 4.6-4.8 range.

Stop mudding up the waters with clear logic, reason and forethought .....

:rofl:

ColoCG
01-02-2012, 12:36
And yet, factory ammunition tends to run towards the high end in terms of pressure (as evidenced by the OAL, velocity, and recoil characteristics), and it works in most guns.

Why should reloads be any different, unless they're on the very edge of pressure or dimensions?


No, I'm not convinced that there's so much variation between firearms that one would KB with a given load while another would be well under maximum pressure, unless the former is old enough that the metallurgy just didn't support modern higher-pressure rounds. You know, like the ones that were made back when Jack was middle-aged (a bit more than a century ago or so, by my reckoning...). :supergrin:

You think this newb's reloads are as consistant, safe, and well made factory ammo?:whistling:

ColoCG
01-02-2012, 12:42
Unless I missed it we don't know how he was metering the powder and if it was a powder measure how he set it up. From what I have read so far I'm wondering how close he is to that 4.4 load. I wouldn't be surprised if he had some around the 4.6-4.8 range.


:agree: Hard to believe someone that loads 1000 rounds the way he did and that would be the only mistake he made.:dunno:

kcbrown
01-02-2012, 14:31
It's not the metal thats the issue. It's the chamber, the barrel, the ramp all the dimensional differences. Factory ammo is based on the normal range for most guns across the board, as is the saami specs for AOL. SOme people will load a good bit longer or shorter then saami specs when they develop a load for a specific firearm.


Sure, and I get that. It's why I mentioned that if you're at the limits of tolerances dimensionally, then it's possible your rounds won't function in some other gun than the one you're developing for.



Pressure and perceived recoil are absolutely not related. Don't fall into that trap. Just because a factory Speer Gold-dot kicks harder then what you made, it doesn't mean you have room to increase pressure in your reloads. Recoil is more physics then straight pressure. It has to do with burn rates, weight of the projectile and the firearm as well.

No, pressure and perceived recoil are related for a given type of powder, because pressure and velocity are related. Manufacturers are trying to achieve maximum velocity with their factory ammunition while keeping pressures within standard SAAMI pressures (and sometimes not even then -- see, e.g., the 9mm +P and +P+ factory ammunition that's out there). But especially for self-defense ammunition, they're also attempting to minimize the recoil, since a greater recoil impulse makes it more difficult to get the gun back on target for followup shots, and their practice ammunition is designed to simulate the characteristics of their self defense ammunition.

Additionally, they can't be near the limits of the spec dimensionally, because their ammunition has to work in a wide range of firearms. So that means their ammunition isn't going to exceed SAAMI specs on the long end, and chances are it'll be shorter than that (e.g., anywhere from 1.110" to 1.155" for 9mm FMJ rounds, when the max spec is 1.169"). And that means they can't take maximum advantage of case volume to achieve greater velocity at lower pressures.

Put all that together, and it follows that factory ammunition is generally going to be near the top end of allowable pressures, simply because they're trying to maximize velocities. They won't be at the very top, because that introduces some liability risk, but they'll be near it. Their performance requirements demand that.


I see no reason that a reload which is near maximum load according to the data (meaning towards the upper end of allowable pressures according to the SAAMI specs) and which is dimensionally near factory dimensions for a given type of bullet won't function properly in the vast majority of guns out there.

kcbrown
01-02-2012, 14:49
Seriously have to ask that? The ammo the manuf puts together is pressure tested using specific components. Reloaders are cobbling together ammo w/ mixed components & at best a chronograph & some knowledge of how to read pressures. A huge diff.


Sure, I get that. And yet, the pressure testing has already been done for you by the powder and bullet manufacturers (and, sometimes, others as well), using various types of bullets.



Without pressure equip, you really have no idea that when you use plated for lead or jacketed, what that does to pressures, you can only make an educated guess.


Of course. Nothing I said is intended to say that using a bullet with significantly different characteristics than the ones the load data is based on will remain within pressure limits with that same load data. Nothing at all.



Not to mention manuf rarely if ever use the canister powders available to us.


That's true, but I'm sorry, I won't ascribe magic powers to the powders manufacturers use. If the powder they were using were so much better in terms of pressure versus velocity for a given cartridge than the canister powders available to us, then I fully expect we'd soon see canister powders with similar properties.

Of course, there are a lot of canister powders out there, and which one you use will determine a great deal about the tolerances you have to work with. Which is to say, if you're using a fast (or, more precisely, spiky) powder, you're more likely to be flirting with disaster if you load on the high end than if you use a slower powder (or, more precisely, one with more gradual pressure versus charge and pressure versus volume curves).

No, the powder used by the manufacturers may be fine tuned to the application, meaning it achieves a little more velocity versus pressure than you can achieve with available canister powders, but I'm skeptical that it'll be a significantly higher velocity. That is, I can see it being on the order of 50 feet per second difference or thereabouts.



SO measureing the powder in a factory load doesn't tell you much. Sure, it may be a small charge, but there is no way to equate that to what the reloader is using to make their ammo.:whistling:

This is indisputable. Without some experimentation, there's just no way to know what the burn characteristics of the factory powder are.

kcbrown
01-02-2012, 14:53
[COLOR=red]

You think this newb's reloads are as consistant, safe, and well made factory ammo?:whistling:

My comment wasn't about the OP's reloads at all. It was about reloads in general.

That is, I dispute the notion that reloads as a category are somehow so "special" that they can't be made to work in the vast majority of guns, just like factory ammo does. In fact, I assert that making them so that they will is easy as long as you're not at the ragged edge of dimensions or pressures.

fredj338
01-02-2012, 15:47
My comment wasn't about the OP's reloads at all. It was about reloads in general.

That is, I dispute the notion that reloads as a category are somehow so "special" that they can't be made to work in the vast majority of guns, just like factory ammo does. In fact, I assert that making them so that they will is easy as long as you're not at the ragged edge of dimensions or pressures.

Very true, but a max book load, what book? Loads tested in one gun can be vastly diff in another. Short throats, tight chambers, both can lead to pressure issues w/ any ammo, the issue w/ handloads is a stated before, w/o pressure equip, you really have no idea what you are doing pressure wise. Sure, keep your loads off the average max data & they'll likely work in any firearm built to specs.
The original OP just Effed up loading 1000rds of untested ammo. It's amazing what some people will do & then not have a clue why it's not prudent. Sure, I can drive 120MPH w/ a seatbelt, but it only takes a small incident to prove to be a bad idea.

n2extrm
01-02-2012, 16:17
Sure, and I get that. It's why I mentioned that if you're at the limits of tolerances dimensionally, then it's possible your rounds won't function in some other gun than the one you're developing for.




No, pressure and perceived recoil are related for a given type of powder, because pressure and velocity are related. Manufacturers are trying to achieve maximum velocity with their factory ammunition while keeping pressures within standard SAAMI pressures (and sometimes not even then -- see, e.g., the 9mm +P and +P+ factory ammunition that's out there). But especially for self-defense ammunition, they're also attempting to minimize the recoil, since a greater recoil impulse makes it more difficult to get the gun back on target for followup shots, and their practice ammunition is designed to simulate the characteristics of their self defense ammunition.

Additionally, they can't be near the limits of the spec dimensionally, because their ammunition has to work in a wide range of firearms. So that means their ammunition isn't going to exceed SAAMI specs on the long end, and chances are it'll be shorter than that (e.g., anywhere from 1.110" to 1.155" for 9mm FMJ rounds, when the max spec is 1.169"). And that means they can't take maximum advantage of case volume to achieve greater velocity at lower pressures.

Put all that together, and it follows that factory ammunition is generally going to be near the top end of allowable pressures, simply because they're trying to maximize velocities. They won't be at the very top, because that introduces some liability risk, but they'll be near it. Their performance requirements demand that.


I see no reason that a reload which is near maximum load according to the data (meaning towards the upper end of allowable pressures according to the SAAMI specs) and which is dimensionally near factory dimensions for a given type of bullet won't function properly in the vast majority of guns out there.

I think you miss understood me. My point is just because you reloaded a 9mm with titegroup and it feels softer then a Gold-Dot doesn't mean it is lower in pressure then a Gold-Dot and that you can go ahead and add another .2 grains safely. You don't know what the real pressure is and as you stated the curve for the powder you are working with. .2 grains could put you in real trouble. Additionally I believe you stated the bullet makes a difference, that was in earlier post as well. We have a load at or near max published data for another bullet, with what may be other different components. We don't know how it will react. We have a gun with what could be a tight or loose chamber a short throat who knows.

As for The SAAMI specs, most are close to these specs, but they are a guide. Everybody has there little bit of wiggle room in the numbers based on what they are doing. Doesn't really matter much for the most part. They want the rounds to fit the magazine and feed in most guns or all guns. Then it has to pass for pressure. Here the OP can't test for pressure so it is he has to guess. Yes he can make the rounds longer and run them at max, till a set back happens, then the max is below minimum. How is the OP with using a caliper to measure the rounds, it really isn't as simple as it seems. I bet if 6 of us measure the same item we all get a different reading. All of them would be close and correct in it's own, but depending how we use the caliper it could be quite a bit off. Did the OP zero and check the calipers? Did he use calipers? These rounds could be at mad and .030" short.

As for a reload at or near the max SAAMI pressure being safe, yes it should be, as long as the guns are in SAAMI specs as well. We are assuming the gun is in spec, but plenty are not. Add that we don't have a way to see what the pressure in these reloads is. The only way to know that would be with lab equipment that we don't have. Well at least I believe most of don't have.

kcbrown
01-02-2012, 23:34
I think you miss understood me. My point is just because you reloaded a 9mm with titegroup and it feels softer then a Gold-Dot doesn't mean it is lower in pressure then a Gold-Dot and that you can go ahead and add another .2 grains safely. You don't know what the real pressure is and as you stated the curve for the powder you are working with. .2 grains could put you in real trouble.


Absolutely correct, and I never intended to imply otherwise.



Additionally I believe you stated the bullet makes a difference, that was in earlier post as well. We have a load at or near max published data for another bullet, with what may be other different components. We don't know how it will react. We have a gun with what could be a tight or loose chamber a short throat who knows.


Also correct. None of my comments should be taken as any sort of endorsement of the OP's methodology or the likely outcome of his load. It was only in response to the comment that "just because it works in someone else's gun doesn't mean it is safe in yours. Every gun and barrel are different".

The implication there is that there is so much variation in guns and barrels that what would be a low pressure in one would KB another. While I agree with that statement when a very fast, spiky powder is used, I do not agree with that statement as a general sentiment. If the variation were that extreme between guns, then either factory ammunition would be blowing up a notable percentage of those guns while being just fine in the rest, or factory ammunition would be loaded to the lower end of the performance envelope.

And that's quite clearly not the case. Quite the opposite: factory ammunition is loaded towards the upper end of the performance envelope, and that has implications about the pressures involved. This stuff isn't magic -- it's physics.



As for The SAAMI specs, most are close to these specs, but they are a guide. Everybody has there little bit of wiggle room in the numbers based on what they are doing. Doesn't really matter much for the most part. They want the rounds to fit the magazine and feed in most guns or all guns. Then it has to pass for pressure.


Yes, but pressure in what? They can (and do, I'm sure) measure the pressure in a standard pressure-measuring setup, but the mantra here is that it is the variation between guns that is responsible for the necessity of working up the load and watching for pressure signs.



Here the OP can't test for pressure so it is he has to guess. Yes he can make the rounds longer and run them at max, till a set back happens, then the max is below minimum. How is the OP with using a caliper to measure the rounds, it really isn't as simple as it seems. I bet if 6 of us measure the same item we all get a different reading. All of them would be close and correct in it's own, but depending how we use the caliper it could be quite a bit off. Did the OP zero and check the calipers? Did he use calipers? These rounds could be at mad and .030" short.


Agreed. The problem here is that the OP is almost certainly over max load for his chosen bullet. Will that cause a problem? That depends primarily on the powder. Max loads yield a measured pressure that with the stated bullet and in the measuring vessel is comfortably below the maximum SAAMI standard pressure. How much additional pressure is generated depends primarily on the characteristics of the powder. Some powders (e.g., TG, Clays) have very steep pressure versus powder charge curves once max load is exceeded. Other powders (e.g., Silhouette) apparently don't. I don't know where Bullseye is in that department, so I can't comment on the likelihood that his loads won't generate significantly higher pressures than the max spec. What he has in his favor is the fact that the upper limit on 9mm standard pressure is a bit below the upper limit on +P and/or NATO and the gun is a particularly well-designed one that certainly was designed conservatively, i.e. to hold together despite truly significant overpressures.



As for a reload at or near the max SAAMI pressure being safe, yes it should be, as long as the guns are in SAAMI specs as well. We are assuming the gun is in spec, but plenty are not.


And I would argue that those that are not will almost certainly not fare well with factory ammunition, either.



Add that we don't have a way to see what the pressure in these reloads is. The only way to know that would be with lab equipment that we don't have. Well at least I believe most of don't have.

And that's true. But again, even if it weren't, the original claim is that it is the variation between guns and barrels that makes the difference between "safe" and "unsafe". That is the claim that I'm not convinced is true, especially since the claim is in regard to the variation of pressures generated within the guns and not the guns' ability to handle the pressures generated.

Which is to say: we read pressure signs off the spent brass, which indicates how much pressure was generated within the gun itself, but that won't tell use how well the gun actually handles the resulting pressures even if there are no pressure signs.

Finally, if the variation in pressures generated between guns were so extreme, I'd expect to see guns blowing up left and right with factory ammunition. And yet, we don't see that at all. So my concern with respect to variation between guns would be only if the load in question were with a fast, spiky powder. If a powder with reasonable burn characteristics is used, I would expect to either see pressure signs in most guns or to not see them in most guns, and which of those two winds up being the case would depend on the load. I wouldn't be expecting a great deal of variation between them, because that variation would be causing a lot of trouble for the ammunition manufacturers as well.

TomB985
01-03-2012, 11:10
I'm new here and have done lots of lurking. I am also new to reloading, I got my first reloading kit for Christmas!

My first thought is that I really love the huge amount of information you guys are on this topic. I learned to reload from reading the book a month before I ever attempted to reload, and because of the way they described everything in my Lyman reloading book I have gained an appreciation of how precise these things need to be. From my newbie perspective which I've gained from everything I've read to this point I can't imagine the OP starting out like he did and expecting a positive result.

I like my G19, and even more than that I like my fingers and my eyes. When I started reloading on Christmas day I was using LRN bullets with the near-minimum of 4.5 grains of Unique. I screwed up the OAL by the dumb thinking that the factory Blazer FMJ rounds would have the same OAL as the 115 grn. Whoops...the 5 rounds that I made wouldn't chamber. 10 minutes with my bullet puller rectified that and I learned something important. An hour and a half after that I had another five rounds that I test fired and had good results with. I'm now using 4.8 grains of Unique and am happy with the performance at this point and have no desire to increase to higher loads at this time, because as I stated before I like my gun, my fingers, and my eyesight. To date I have loaded and fired around 150 rounds and this has taken me me close to 15 hours, and as a newbie I couldn't imagine taking any less time to learn such a precise art.

Anyway, my point is that I'm astounded at what the OP has told us. Furthermore I'm frustrated that I read nearly 6 pages of posts and have yet to see the results of the OP's experiments. Sort of like reading a long joke and missing the punchline.

I have gained lots of knowledge from the everyone's well-informed posts though, and I'd like to say thanks for that!

jr05
01-04-2012, 08:16
I'm new here and have done lots of lurking. I am also new to reloading, I got my first reloading kit for Christmas!

My first thought is that I really love the huge amount of information you guys are on this topic. I learned to reload from reading the book a month before I ever attempted to reload, and because of the way they described everything in my Lyman reloading book I have gained an appreciation of how precise these things need to be. From my newbie perspective which I've gained from everything I've read to this point I can't imagine the OP starting out like he did and expecting a positive result.

I like my G19, and even more than that I like my fingers and my eyes. When I started reloading on Christmas day I was using LRN bullets with the near-minimum of 4.5 grains of Unique. I screwed up the OAL by the dumb thinking that the factory Blazer FMJ rounds would have the same OAL as the 115 grn. Whoops...the 5 rounds that I made wouldn't chamber. 10 minutes with my bullet puller rectified that and I learned something important. An hour and a half after that I had another five rounds that I test fired and had good results with. I'm now using 4.8 grains of Unique and am happy with the performance at this point and have no desire to increase to higher loads at this time, because as I stated before I like my gun, my fingers, and my eyesight. To date I have loaded and fired around 150 rounds and this has taken me me close to 15 hours, and as a newbie I couldn't imagine taking any less time to learn such a precise art.

Anyway, my point is that I'm astounded at what the OP has told us. Furthermore I'm frustrated that I read nearly 6 pages of posts and have yet to see the results of the OP's experiments. Sort of like reading a long joke and missing the punchline.

I have gained lots of knowledge from the everyone's well-informed posts though, and I'd like to say thanks for that!

I hope you are using an after-market barrel shooting LRN bullets out of your G19....

DoctaGlockta
01-04-2012, 08:38
I hope you are using an after-market barrel shooting LRN bullets out of your G19....

http://i39.tinypic.com/2gw8d1w.jpg

I think chapter 2 explains lead bullets and factory glock barrels.

rpgman
01-04-2012, 08:42
when I started reloading on my Lyman T-Mag II Turret Press back in August of 2011, I would load 10 rounds with different powder charges and go shoot them.

I would start at the mid range stated in a couple sources like the Lyman 49th edition, plus various online sources like Uniques online site.

For example on my 9mm's, I would load 10 Precision Delta 147gr bullets at 3.7gr of Unique, going all the way up to 4.1gr. Finally, settling on 4.3gr of Unique.

Now, that's the load I use for my 9mm on my Dillon xl650.

It was the same when I loaded my .40's

Starting at 10 Precision Delta 165gr bullets, I would use 5.7gr of Unique, all the way up to 6.1gr's. That gave me 50 rounds to shoot, 10 at each weight, to see what each one would do.

When I found something I liked, I loaded more of that load, and would test shoot them again, until I settled on what I liked.

Now, I use the 6.1 on my Dillon xl650 that I got back in November 2011.
Greg

TomB985
01-04-2012, 08:47
I hope you are using an after-market barrel shooting LRN bullets out of your G19....

Why do you say that? I have found out that this thing does NOT like long OALs with LRN bullets. I can't get anything longer than 1.075" OAL to chamber, but from what I can gather this is still a safe length for these bullets.

Am I wrong?

XDRoX
01-04-2012, 09:33
Why do you say that? I have found out that this thing does NOT like long OALs with LRN bullets. I can't get anything longer than 1.075" OAL to chamber, but from what I can gather this is still a safe length for these bullets.

Am I wrong?

The short OAL required to get your lead bullets to feed have to do with the shape of them, not the fact that they are lead.

What he meant by his comment was Glock recommends not to shoot lead bullets through factory barrels. If they lead the barrel then pressures could raise. If a ton of lead bullets were shot without a proper cleaning then pressures could raise enough to become unsafe.

Either shoot a load that doesn't lead or clean your barrels religiously. Or just buy an after market barrel without polygonal rifling and don't worry about it.

sheltbt
01-04-2012, 09:39
So, did the OP ever shoot any of his loads?

F106 Fan
01-04-2012, 09:40
I think he is saying that because of the warning to not use lead bullets in Glock barrels. This is considered by some to be an "Old Wive's Tale" but there is one published example of a deliberate attempt to blow up a barrel with lead reloads. However, the bullets were very soft and unlike any you might actually buy.

Some folks pay attention to the warning, others do not. Personally, I am shooting FMJ in my G21SF. I will eventually decide to a) try lead bullets or b) replace the barrel. Or, I might just continue on with FMJ. I can buy Zero 230 gr FMJ for $127/1000 delivered or 230 gr LRN for about $90/1000 delivered. It might be that the incremental cost just ins't worth worrying about.

Besides, I have received 'guidance' by the 'powers that be' to not have my grandson shooting lead bullets. I haven't taken that to mean TMJ or CMJ versus FMJ and, for the cost, I certainly don't plan to shoot plated bullets.

Richard

Colorado4Wheel
01-04-2012, 11:25
So, did the OP ever shoot any of his loads?

After this type of thread they normally don't come back. I personally would like to know how it went as well.

Shadyscott69
01-04-2012, 12:37
After this type of thread they normally don't come back. I personally would like to know how it went as well.

He may no longer be able to type, Steve. :dunno:

TX expat
01-04-2012, 12:40
He may no longer be able to type, Steve. :dunno:

He'll be back; he just has to get that speech-to-text, à la Steven Hawking, stuff installed on his computer seeing as how the keyboard is somewhat useless without the fingers to manipulate it :supergrin:

ponders
01-04-2012, 12:40
He may no longer be able to type, Steve. :dunno:


still here scott, and all others wondering, all fingers intact, as well as sight and hearing are fine.:tongueout:

Zombie Steve
01-04-2012, 12:42
Welcome back, ponders.

So you shot 'em?

Shadyscott69
01-04-2012, 12:43
still here scott, and all others wondering, all fingers intact, as well as sight and hearing are fine.:tongueout:


:wavey:

Did you shoot them?

ponders
01-04-2012, 12:43
Welcome back, ponders.

So you shot 'em?


the whole lot, they all went "bang", guns are fine and hands and ears and eyesight are fine, no damage at all to my guns, nice load actually kinda stiff but i like em:tongueout::supergrin::cool::cool::wavey:

Zombie Steve
01-04-2012, 12:51
Glad it worked out, glad you showed back up (we'll give you grief about this forever). :whistling:

Next time the safe thing to do is to find several sources of data, start low and work your way up.

RustyFN
01-04-2012, 13:43
Glad it worked out also.

we'll give you grief about this forever

Of course we will, why should he be treated any different then the rest of us. :tongueout:

ColoCG
01-04-2012, 13:49
the whole lot, they all went "bang", guns are fine and hands and ears and eyesight are fine, no damage at all to my guns, nice load actually kinda stiff but i like em:tongueout::supergrin::cool::cool::wavey:

Glad it worked out also, I thought it probably would. But there are definitely better ways to test a new load. :upeyes:

F106 Fan
01-04-2012, 14:03
Glad it worked out also, I thought it probably would. But there are definitely better ways to test a new load. :upeyes:

'Probably' certainly is an interesting word!

Glad it worked out.

Richard

ColoCG
01-04-2012, 14:23
Probably means I'm glad he was shooting them and not me. :wow:

fredj338
01-04-2012, 15:21
Glad it worked out also, I thought it probably would. But there are definitely better ways to test a new load. :upeyes:

Not in the OP's mind now. Like a puppy, once you get positive reinf, you think that it's all good. Loading max data w/o working up works most of the time, like driving w/o a seat belt. It's the one time it doesn't work that is diff to get over.:whistling: I wish him continued "luck", he'll need it.

TomB985
01-04-2012, 15:29
the whole lot, they all went "bang", guns are fine and hands and ears and eyesight are fine, no damage at all to my guns, nice load actually kinda stiff but i like em:tongueout::supergrin::cool::cool::wavey:

Really glad to hear this, ponders! You're braver than I am, and I'm not sure that's a good thing in reloading, but it worked out. I'm going to take some care to not follow in your footsteps however.

BTW, really love your avatar! Haven't seen that one yet and was laughing so hard when I first saw it I had to show my wife! :supergrin:

DoctaGlockta
01-04-2012, 15:42
Epic thread.

ponders
01-04-2012, 18:29
Really glad to hear this, ponders! You're braver than I am, and I'm not sure that's a good thing in reloading, but it worked out. I'm going to take some care to not follow in your footsteps however.

BTW, really love your avatar! Haven't seen that one yet and was laughing so hard when I first saw it I had to show my wife! :supergrin:


sweet:cool::supergrin::wavey:

did the wifey like it?

ponders
01-04-2012, 18:30
Glad it worked out, glad you showed back up (we'll give you grief about this forever). :whistling:

Next time the safe thing to do is to find several sources of data, start low and work your way up.


i catch grief everyday of my life wherever i am :rofl::whistling:

ponders
01-04-2012, 18:32
Not in the OP's mind now. Like a puppy, once you get posetive reinf, you think that it's all good. Loading max data w/o working up works most of the time, like driving w/o a seat belt. It's the one time it doesn't work that is diff to get over.:whistling: I wish him continued "luck", he'll need it.


im gona back them off to about 4.1 to 4.2 :wavey:

TomB985
01-04-2012, 18:50
sweet:cool::supergrin::wavey:

did the wifey like it?

She did. :wow: :rofl:

labdwakin
01-04-2012, 21:42
I was very VERY glad to read at the end of this Epic Thread that the OP was going to back the load off. Still think he should check em with a chrono, though.

F106 Fan
01-04-2012, 23:00
im gona back them off to about 4.1 to 4.2 :wavey:

And, in my view, that still leaves them overcharged. Earlier I posted the load for a 125 gr lead bullet at 3.8 gr max. Your bullet is 1 gr lighte and could use a LITTLE more powder - maybe.

See message #51 for a load I found for a 125 gr lead bullet. It is 1 gr heavier than your 124 gr and that would allow for a SLIGHT increase in powder but probably not anywhere near 4.1 or 4.2 gr.

You should be coming at this from the 3.5 gr end and working up while looking for signs of overpressure.

Richard

fredj338
01-05-2012, 00:49
And, in my view, that still leaves them overcharged. Earlier I posted the load for a 125 gr lead bullet at 3.8 gr max. Your bullet is 1 gr lighte and could use a LITTLE more powder - maybe.

See message #51 for a load I found for a 125 gr lead bullet. It is 1 gr heavier than your 124 gr and that would allow for a SLIGHT increase in powder but probably not anywhere near 4.1 or 4.2 gr.

You should be coming at this from the 3.5 gr end and working up while looking for signs of overpressure.

Richard

As I noted eariler, positive reinf makes it unlikely he'll learn. Now if the gun KB, maybe he would understand but hey, no harm no foul. So let's load em up & go shoot.:whistling:

RustyFN
01-05-2012, 12:14
And, in my view, that still leaves them overcharged. Earlier I posted the load for a 125 gr lead bullet at 3.8 gr max. Your bullet is 1 gr lighte and could use a LITTLE more powder - maybe.

See message #51 for a load I found for a 125 gr lead bullet. It is 1 gr heavier than your 124 gr and that would allow for a SLIGHT increase in powder but probably not anywhere near 4.1 or 4.2 gr.

You should be coming at this from the 3.5 gr end and working up while looking for signs of overpressure.

Richard

The problem there is you are giving max load for a lead bullet and he is not shooting lead, he is shooting Berry's plated. Berry's does not recommend to use lead data they recommend jacketed data. Max for BE with a 124 grain bullet is 4.4 grains so he should start around 3.8 to 4 grains. I agree he should have started low and worked up and agree with Fred that it looks like he didn't learn anything from this.

fredj338
01-05-2012, 12:49
The problem there is you are giving max load for a lead bullet and he is not shooting lead, he is shooting Berry's plated. Berry's does not recommend to use lead data they recommend jacketed data. Max for BE with a 124 grain bullet is 4.4 grains so he should start around 3.8 to 4 grains. I agree he should have started low and worked up and agree with Fred that it looks like he didn't learn anything from this.

Most plated will run closer to lead bulelt than jacketed, kind of inbetween. They are soft lead cores w/ very thin copper plating, so act mor elike a lead bullet & they are often 0.001" larger dia as well.:dunno:

Taterhead
01-05-2012, 14:57
The problem there is you are giving max load for a lead bullet and he is not shooting lead, he is shooting Berry's plated. Berry's does not recommend to use lead data they recommend jacketed data. Max for BE with a 124 grain bullet is 4.4 grains so he should start around 3.8 to 4 grains. I agree he should have started low and worked up and agree with Fred that it looks like he didn't learn anything from this.

Not exactly. They recommend using mid-range loads from jacketed book data. Rainier recommends using lead data or backing off 10% from jacketed data. A max charge of jacketed data is not suitable for plated. I certainly would not live on a steady diet of plated bullets loaded to max charges designed for jacketed bullets.

http://www.berrysmfg.com/faq-q9-c1-How_do_I_load_Berrys_Preferred_Plated_Bullets.aspx

RustyFN
01-05-2012, 15:18
Most plated will run closer to lead bulelt than jacketed, kind of inbetween. They are soft lead cores w/ very thin copper plating, so act mor elike a lead bullet & they are often 0.001" larger dia as well.:dunno:

Yes but when the bullet manufacture tells me to use jacketed data for their bullets then I'm going to use jacketed data. Why would you not listen to the bullet manufacture?

RustyFN
01-05-2012, 15:22
Not exactly. They recommend using mid-range loads from jacketed book data. Rainier recommends using lead data or backing off 10% from jacketed data. A max charge of jacketed data is not suitable for plated. I certainly would not live on a steady diet of plated bullets loaded to max charges designed for jacketed bullets.

http://www.berrysmfg.com/faq-q9-c1-How_do_I_load_Berrys_Preferred_Plated_Bullets.aspx

Correct mid range jacketed data not lead data. I never said to load max I said to start at the starting jacketed data and work up. Berry's also says mid range jacketed up to 1200 fps.

TX expat
01-05-2012, 15:24
They don't say to use jacketed load data period. They say to use low to mid range jacketed data and not to exceed the mid range loads. That's pretty much the same thing as saying use lead data. Since most loading books don't publish lead data, they are going to provide the 'safe' answer that can be found in any of the books.

fredj338
01-05-2012, 15:29
they don't say to use jacketed load data period. They say to use low to mid range jacketed data and not to exceed the mid range loads. That's pretty much the same thing as saying use lead data. Since most loading books don't publish lead data, they are going to provide the 'safe' answer that can be found in any of the books.
^^this rusty^^^

RustyFN
01-05-2012, 15:34
They don't say to use jacketed load data period. They say to use low to mid range jacketed data and not to exceed the mid range loads. That's pretty much the same thing as saying use lead data. Since most loading books don't publish lead data, they are going to provide the 'safe' answer that can be found in any of the books.

How is it the same as saying use lead data when the max load for a lead bullet is less than the starting load for a jacketed bullet?

TX expat
01-05-2012, 15:46
How is it the same as saying use lead data when the max load for a lead bullet is less than the starting load for a jacketed bullet?

Guess it may depend on where you are getting your load data from. My Lyman book, which covers both, doesn't follow that way though.

As an example, one load for a 147 gr. 9mm TMJ starts with 5.3 and goes to 6.6. The same weight lead load in the same powder starts with 5.1 and goes up to 5.9.

I'm sure every powder is going to be different and with all the variations from one book to another, there could be a fair amount of discrepancy. I've always loaded from the lead data when I'm using Berry's and I've been pleased with the results, so I don't really see how it could be considered bad advice.

RustyFN
01-05-2012, 16:18
Guess it may depend on where you are getting your load data from. My Lyman book, which covers both, doesn't follow that way though.

As an example, one load for a 147 gr. 9mm TMJ starts with 5.3 and goes to 6.6. The same weight lead load in the same powder starts with 5.1 and goes up to 5.9.

I'm sure every powder is going to be different and with all the variations from one book to another, there could be a fair amount of discrepancy. I've always loaded from the lead data when I'm using Berry's and I've been pleased with the results, so I don't really see how it could be considered bad advice.

Very ture I guess it depends where you look, bullet weight and powder. I was looking at 124 grain on Hodgdon and Speer manual. I have noticed that there seems to be almost no difference between lead and jacketed data for 200 grain in 45 auto. I just haven't looked in the right place to see that with 9mm.

Skunk Pilot
09-12-2012, 02:50
Good read.

I also was concerned about if the OP would be ok shooting those. I just got into reloading and I finally set up the RCBS Lock-Out Die and am very, very pleased I spent the money on that. However you still need to start out with the correct grains to begin with, but it's a really nice tool to have.

I want to create the lowest safest power factor 9mm 147 gr load I can, sub minor. I bought the X-Treme 147gr RN from TJConevera and am going to start at 2.8 or 2.9 grains of Titegroup and then go from there. However I'll probably stay there for a little bit until I do even more reading. X-Treme's website state: "...We add 4 to 6 thousandths more plating than brand X", but who the heck knows what is normal for plating out there, I certainly don't right now. Berry's states: "...the thickness of the plating on our bullets ranges from 3.5 up to 8 thousandths of an inch of plating on each side". So if 9mm from Berry's gets 3.5 then apparently you'd get 7.5 from X-Treme which seems like a lot considering I'm sure the Berry's bullet's that get those are big rifle rounds. So I'm just going to use the low end of the TMJ in Lyman's 49th manual (p. 341).

Of course I'm going to have to get lower weight aftermarket springs for the M&P9 FS for sub minor loads. I also plan on getting an aftermarket barrel that is custom fitted so I can get .5" to 1." out to 25 yards. So I'm going to have to ask the gentlemen that will be offering these (only one allowed from Storm Lake) how these will affect the pressures and what he recommends for shooting 124gr and 147gr bullets.

So far I have only reloaded 2 full rounds with powder, a lot I know. Since I won't be ordering the gun until next week with the barrel installed, didn't make sense to go overboard. Planning on just tossing the bullets, especially since that Hornady Bullet pullet die doesn't seem to do anything, it's a simple concept but no joy. But something told me to go back on the internet to really figure out where the plated bullets really lie in comparison to the Lyman #2 Alloy and the Speer TMJ rounds. Been taking notes for months, but wanted to be very, very sure.

One thing that I will do from this thread; is pick up the broom and clean my lane and the 2 next to me if no one is in them. Then I will take the magazine out and only load one round in the chamber and then shoot my round. Then thoroughly check it and the rest of them one by one.

I was planning on only doing 10 round batches. Depending on how much more tight the new barrels could be then maybe I'll have to make 20, 10 for each barrel. Of course throwing different springs into the mix I'm going to have to have a plan before I really do this and write it all down so I'm methodical when I get to the range.

One good thing is on my Dillon XL 650 with the regular small Powder Bar it actually went down to 2.4 grains. I turned it to the lowest it could go, which was supposed to be 3.0 gr so this should save me from buying the extra small Powder Bar, at least for awhile. Of course to be safe (0.6gr is a lot, especially with Titegroup and 9mm) I'm going to double check this on BE forums. Have the bolt that can change the powder hot glued just in case someone fiddles with it, not likely to happen, but you never know.

RustyFN
09-12-2012, 17:15
Sorry messed up.

Fwdftw
09-12-2012, 17:54
Holy thread digger Batman

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