9mm Come Back [Archive] - Glock Talk

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Yankee2718
01-02-2012, 09:35
Has anyone noticed any LE agencies coming back to 9x19mm? I am issued a G22/27 and seems that every agency around me uses .40 with one or two using .45.

carbuncle
01-02-2012, 09:50
I'm pretty sure all the agencies in Western WA have switched to .40 since the 90s. Bellevue PD may have been the last holdout (they used to allow a mishmash of duty weapons, from what I've seen traded in over the years), but they standardized finally.

SergeantC
01-02-2012, 10:22
I believe the Saint Paul Police Department has gone back to the 9mm for its new guns, on the grounds that the ammunition available today is better than the stuff that was available when they first used 9mm in the early 90s, and also that they can get more ammo for the same price.

Chonny
01-02-2012, 10:47
I asked an OKC police officer if he had a .40 and he shook his head and said 9. One example. I bet there are others everywhere making this switch.

DonGlock26
01-02-2012, 11:01
If companies like S&W are willing to swap 9mm new pistols for .40 trade-ins, agencies could save some money on training ammo costs. If the economy continues to suck, I can see this happening more and more. .40S&W has it's downsides- greater recoil being the main one. The fact that Glock .40's are having jamming problems with tac lights really stated this trend of switching to back to 9mm. I think we will see tac light/ video cameras on LE pistols soon. I already have one on my taser and it works well.

Civilians are moving back to 9mm for cost alone. Modern 9mm defensive ammunition is also being judged as being excellent for SD.

_

WiskyT
01-02-2012, 11:11
If companies like S&W are willing to swap 9mm new pistols for .40 trade-ins, agencies could save some money on training ammo costs. If the economy continues to suck, I can see this happening more and more. .40S&W has it's downsides- greater recoil being the main one. The fact that Glock .40's are having jamming problems with tac lights really stated this trend of switching to back to 9mm. I think we will see tac light/ video cameras on LE pistols soon. I already have one on my taser and it works well.

Civilians are moving back to 9mm for cost alone. Modern 9mm defensive ammunition is also being judged as being excellent for SD.

_

9mm ammo is no cheaper in LE sales. Often, albiet a small amount, 40 ammo is cheaper than 9mm.

HKLovingIT
01-02-2012, 11:15
Has anyone noticed any LE agencies coming back to 9x19mm? I am issued a G22/27 and seems that every agency around me uses .40 with one or two using .45.

Chicago and NYPD still use 9mm, among many other departments. I have no idea if some have switched back to it from .40, I'm sure there are some, but there seems to be a number of large urban departments that still authorize and use 9mm.

mrsurfboard
01-02-2012, 11:26
New Jersey State Police still uses 9mm.

WiskyT
01-02-2012, 11:29
New Jersey State Police still uses 9mm.

Yes, there still some dept that stayed with the 9mm. That is not a "comeback". An agency here and there going back to it isn't a comeback either. The Troopers were not happy about staying with 9mm, not the ones I talked to. I don't know of any depts where I worked switching back to 9mm.

When given the choice, like LAPD, cops opt for bigger calibers.

JuneyBooney
01-02-2012, 11:30
Has anyone noticed any LE agencies coming back to 9x19mm? I am issued a G22/27 and seems that every agency around me uses .40 with one or two using .45.


I know 9mm is cheaper but most leo agencies that I know of do carry the .40 and the most popular weapon seems to be the G22 and the Sig 229 in .40 from what I see. Hopefully they don't go back but some of the really large departments may go back because of the budget constraints.

WiskyT
01-02-2012, 11:41
I know 9mm is cheaper but most leo agencies that I know of do carry the .40 and the most popular weapon seems to be the G22 and the Sig 229 in .40 from what I see. Hopefully they don't go back but some of the really large departments may go back because of the budget constraints.

It's not cheaper. If you navigate through the link you will see that the red, bold type, figure is the price paid under this contract.

http://www.dms.myflorida.com/index.php/content/download/25655/121659/file/Lawmen%20and%20Shooters%20Price%20Sheet_Add1_013107.xls

Remington 29440 Premier® Golden Saber® High Performance Centerfire Pistol & Revolver 40 S&W, 165 Gr, Brass Jacketed Hollow Point, M.V. 1150 ± 50 Ft/Sec GS40SWA $160.00 71.20% $216.68 500 $555.60 61%


Remington 29350 Premier® Golden Saber® Bonded High Performance Centerfire Pistol & Revolver 9MM Luger +P, 124 Gr, Brass Jacketed Hollow Point Bonded, M.V. 1180 ± 50 Ft/Sec GSB9MMD $211.29 61.75% $248.58 500 $552.40 55%

WiskyT
01-02-2012, 11:45
Okay, I missed the fact that the 9mm sighted above is "bonded" and therefore more expensive. This is a better example, bonded 40. The price is basically the same:

Remington 29366 Premier® Golden Saber® Bonded High Performance Centerfire Pistol & Revolver 40 S&W, 165 Gr, Brass Jacketed Hollow Point Bonded, M.V. 1150 ± 50 Ft/Sec GSB40SWA $186.91 70.75% $249.21 500 $639.00 61%

Orive 8
01-02-2012, 11:53
Agency I worked for in WA state issued SIG 9s and .45s, Officer's choice - never did jump on the .40 bandwagon.

Foxtrotx1
01-02-2012, 11:53
Okay, I missed the fact that the 9mm sighted above is "bonded" and therefore more expensive. This is a better example, bonded 40. The price is basically the same:

Remington 29366 Premier® Golden Saber® Bonded High Performance Centerfire Pistol & Revolver 40 S&W, 165 Gr, Brass Jacketed Hollow Point Bonded, M.V. 1150 ± 50 Ft/Sec GSB40SWA $186.91 70.75% $249.21 500 $639.00 61%

The 9mm is also +P and adds to price slightly if I'm not mistaken.

WiskyT
01-02-2012, 11:56
The 9mm is also +P and adds to price slightly if I'm not mistaken.

It doesn't. They are the same price. If you look through enough contracts, you will see that they are consistently the same price. By same, I mean within a few dollars of each other.

Yankee2718
01-02-2012, 11:57
I think the main reason that cops opt for bigger calibers because many don't know the first thing about ballistics or terminal performance. Most aren't even shooters. Look at the taser syndrome. Most cops believe the BS propaganda fed to them by department training staffs about how the guns and ammo they use are the best around. A lot of guys would take the biggest caliber they could.


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WiskyT
01-02-2012, 11:59
I think the main reason that cops opt for bigger calibers because many don't know the first thing about ballistics or terminal performance. Most aren't even shooters. Look at the taser syndrome. Most cops believe the BS propaganda fed to them by department training staffs about how the guns and ammo they use are the best around. A lot of guys would take the biggest caliber they could.


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There is a lot of that.

LawScholar
01-02-2012, 12:05
Modern 9x19 is much, much better in flesh than it used to be, putting it in parity with the .40. For barrier penetration, though, a lot of 9x19 hollowpoints still fall short. I think police will remain with .40 for the foreseeable future due to .40's continued somewhat better performance with barriers like auto glass and car doors.

I think departments are served well with 9x19, .40, and .45 for different reasons. It doesn't much matter which one they choose at the end of the day so long as they can shoot it well. My brother is a LEO issued .40 and his department's officers get great results in training with the Gen 3 Glock 22 .40 - with excellent accuracy and speed even in double-taps. A department's caliber selection, at the end of the day, should revolve around how that department's officers shoot, and what they shoot best.

chrisf608
01-02-2012, 12:08
The PD in my city carry the Glock21SF

Mr.Reignman
01-02-2012, 12:10
NYPD still uses 9mm.

LawScholar
01-02-2012, 12:12
NYPD still uses 9mm.

Speer Gold Dot 9x19 124-grain +p if I remember correctly. Great round, arguably the best 9mm round going. I prefer 147s, but the GDHP 124 +p shows great performance.

Yankee2718
01-02-2012, 12:14
It doesn't. They are the same price. If you look through enough contracts, you will see that they are consistently the same price. By same, I mean within a few dollars of each other.

But think about it. Even if the price difference is only $3 per case, how many cases does a department of 600 officers have to buy? Probably about 250 or so per half year. That is $750 saved per order. Now also factor in the difference in price of range ammo. Any big department that operates its own training center goes through range ammo like no tomorrow. For arguments sake, a department training consumes 100 cases of range ammo per month. The difference in price is $7 a case. That is a $700 a month savings, multiplied by 12 months, total savings is $8400 a year.

If a company will switch out pistols for an even trade, the total savings over the life of the service pistols (10 years) would be $99k. I am sure that the saved money could be spent on other things such as new cars or new peripheral equipment. A lot would depend on the department size, if they run their own academy/training center, and the annual amount of pistol ammunition consumption.


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cowboy1964
01-02-2012, 12:41
Not too many have switched BACK to 9mm but I've heard of more than a few switching FROM .40 to either .45 or 357 Sig.

I predict more switching back to 9mm in the future as local LE budgets shrink.

cowboy1964
01-02-2012, 12:43
For barrier penetration, though, a lot of 9x19 hollowpoints still fall short. I think police will remain with .40 for the foreseeable future due to .40's continued somewhat better performance with barriers like auto glass and car doors.


That's a total myth. 9mm, .40, and .45 all perform about the same through barriers. 357 Sig bests them all but not by much, and I'll bet even that could vary test-by-test.

http://le.atk.com/pdf/GoldDotPoster.pdf

LawScholar
01-02-2012, 13:20
That's a total myth. 9mm, .40, and .45 all perform about the same through barriers. 357 Sig bests them all but not by much, and I'll bet even that could vary test-by-test.

http://le.atk.com/pdf/GoldDotPoster.pdf

Interesting link, and informative. Thanks. I'm not sure why they used a full-length barrel for the 9x19 testing and a compact-length barrel for the .40, though. (I looked at the 9mm 124 +p GDHP and the .40 180 GDHP.)

I've seen other testing with other hollowpoints showing the .40 as a better penetrator, but I'm an idiot and I never remember to save links for threads like this.

The Gold Dot definitely changed the game. it is a consistently awesome round in pretty much every caliber.

On another note, that link definitely supports my heavy-for-caliber preference. I see heavier, slower loads with less energy getting superior penetration for the most part.

Saved to my (newly created) useful firearms links folder. :)

glock2740
01-02-2012, 13:45
9mm SD ammo has come along way over the past few years. I wouldn't be surprised to see some depts switch back over from .40 to 9mm, due to the ammo cost if for nothing else.

writwing
01-02-2012, 14:57
I think the main reason that cops opt for bigger calibers because many don't know the first thing about ballistics or terminal performance. Most aren't even shooters. Look at the taser syndrome. Most cops believe the BS propaganda fed to them by department training staffs about how the guns and ammo they use are the best around. A lot of guys would take the biggest caliber they could.


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I find those knowledgeable about guns (hunters, etc) chose the bigger bore. Non-gun people (many leos, mall ninjas) choose the new and improved gun and caliber.

Merkavaboy
01-02-2012, 15:16
Yes, there still some dept that stayed with the 9mm. That is not a "comeback". An agency here and there going back to it isn't a comeback either. The Troopers were not happy about staying with 9mm, not the ones I talked to. I don't know of any depts where I worked switching back to 9mm.

When given the choice, like LAPD, cops opt for bigger calibers.

Yeah, and for all the wrong reasons. A good example is the N. Hollywood shoot-out. In the aftermath, many cops were clamoring for .45 cal pistols. If all those officers were armed with .45s during the N.Hollywood incident, the .45 would have been just as ineffective as the 9mm and they would have run out of ammo half as fast.

WiskyT
01-02-2012, 15:29
Yeah, and for all the wrong reasons. A good example is the N. Hollywood shoot-out. In the aftermath, many cops were clamoring for .45 cal pistols. If all those officers were armed with .45s during the N.Hollywood incident, the .45 would have been just as ineffective as the 9mm and they would have run out of ammo half as fast.

The Beretta 92 holds 16 rounds, the Glock 21 14. But yeah, something like that. Buying guns is something that the cops, unions, and admin can all agree on. The cops like it because who wouldn't want a new bigger gun? The unions can "demand" it in the name of officer safety. The admin likes it because as beauracrats, it's more money to spend. And the Politicians can spend other peoples' money looking like they support the police.

WiskyT
01-02-2012, 15:40
But think about it. Even if the price difference is only $3 per case, how many cases does a department of 600 officers have to buy? Probably about 250 or so per half year. That is $750 saved per order. Now also factor in the difference in price of range ammo. Any big department that operates its own training center goes through range ammo like no tomorrow. For arguments sake, a department training consumes 100 cases of range ammo per month. The difference in price is $7 a case. That is a $700 a month savings, multiplied by 12 months, total savings is $8400 a year.

If a company will switch out pistols for an even trade, the total savings over the life of the service pistols (10 years) would be $99k. I am sure that the saved money could be spent on other things such as new cars or new peripheral equipment. A lot would depend on the department size, if they run their own academy/training center, and the annual amount of pistol ammunition consumption.


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They don't go through that much ammo. For 600 cops it would be more like 300 cases total ammo for a year and that's high balling it. A dept that big wouldn't bat an eyelash over $3.00 a case. I worked for a 100 man dept and we regularly did $1,000.00 a day in OT just to cover the no-show crossing guards. Typical OT for a year is well over a million dollars for all the OT and a lot of it is for trivial crap.

ca survivor
01-02-2012, 16:11
That's a total myth. 9mm, .40, and .45 all perform about the same through barriers. 357 Sig bests them all but not by much, and I'll bet even that could vary test-by-test.

http://le.atk.com/pdf/GoldDotPoster.pdf
Tell that to the FBI agents in the Miami shootout, when in 1989?

ca survivor
01-02-2012, 16:16
But think about it. Even if the price difference is only $3 per case, how many cases does a department of 600 officers have to buy? Probably about 250 or so per half year. That is $750 saved per order. Now also factor in the difference in price of range ammo. Any big department that operates its own training center goes through range ammo like no tomorrow. For arguments sake, a department training consumes 100 cases of range ammo per month. The difference in price is $7 a case. That is a $700 a month savings, multiplied by 12 months, total savings is $8400 a year.

If a company will switch out pistols for an even trade, the total savings over the life of the service pistols (10 years) would be $99k. I am sure that the saved money could be spent on other things such as new cars or new peripheral equipment. A lot would depend on the department size, if they run their own academy/training center, and the annual amount of pistol ammunition consumption.


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the departments could save some money by not issuing every officer a cruiser like a company car......

barth
01-02-2012, 16:26
Tell that to the FBI agents in the Miami shootout, when in 1989?

Ammo has improved dramatically over the past 20 years.
Still, anyone old enough to remember the infamous FBI Miami shootout
may have a hard time embracing the 9mm, even today.

The good news is the FBI protocol testing that was developed,
in part, due to that event.
And that testing having a positive effect on ammo improvements.

I've been shooting for over 20 years and just bought my first 9mm (sort of).
Does a Storm Lake 40-9 conversion barrel for my G27 count? LOL

mr00jimbo
01-02-2012, 16:37
In the province of British Columbia, in Canada, police forces are bound by the Police Act to carry a gun chambered in .40 S&W. It identifies the round by name. The only ones who carry 9mm are the RCMP who are regulated federally.
So I don't see them switching any time soon.

The .40 is a police round, through and through, and the stigma of weakness the 9mm has is going to be hard to shake for officer's confidence.

NG VI
01-02-2012, 16:39
+P 9mm generally doesn't have any price difference compared to the same load but standard pressure.

Seven High
01-02-2012, 20:52
The Indiana State Police issue a 9mm weapon which is a Glock 17. It replaced the Glock 22 which they had originally wanted to issue but had reliability problems with. I wonder if the FBI were to go back to the 9mm round as official issue, would more local and state agencies also go back to the 9mm?

WiskyT
01-02-2012, 20:59
I wonder if the FBI were to go back to the 9mm round as official issue, would more local and state agencies also go back to the 9mm?

If the FBI starts any kind of bandwagon, a large amount of admin hacks will jump on it. Deputy Chiefs who have never worked the road have all been to the FBI academy. It makes them smart. They get lots of certificates to hang on their walls and they walk around telling averyone how smart they are. The new guys buy into it at first until the senior guys point out that all of these chiefs have never done any actual police work.

Reservecop55
01-03-2012, 10:35
Glock 17 with Federal HST has been working well in Portland,OR for somt time now

WoodenPlank
01-03-2012, 10:48
Modern 9x19 is much, much better in flesh than it used to be, putting it in parity with the .40. For barrier penetration, though, a lot of 9x19 hollowpoints still fall short. I think police will remain with .40 for the foreseeable future due to .40's continued somewhat better performance with barriers like auto glass and car doors.

I think departments are served well with 9x19, .40, and .45 for different reasons. It doesn't much matter which one they choose at the end of the day so long as they can shoot it well. My brother is a LEO issued .40 and his department's officers get great results in training with the Gen 3 Glock 22 .40 - with excellent accuracy and speed even in double-taps. A department's caliber selection, at the end of the day, should revolve around how that department's officers shoot, and what they shoot best.

Penetration depends on the load. I know a large PD in North Carolina that uses 180gr Gold Dot, and has had multiple issues recently with poor performance through car windshields. Pretty sure it's a known issue with the subsonic 180 grain ammo, though.

Yankee2718
01-03-2012, 10:55
They don't go through that much ammo. For 600 cops it would be more like 300 cases total ammo for a year and that's high balling it. A dept that big wouldn't bat an eyelash over $3.00 a case. I worked for a 100 man dept and we regularly did $1,000.00 a day in OT just to cover the no-show crossing guards. Typical OT for a year is well over a million dollars for all the OT and a lot of it is for trivial crap.

A my dept e go through range ammo like candy. When I was in the academy, in one day we went through 13 cases wath a14 person class. The classes average abut 24 ppl and run year round. Not to mention the days that we weren't shooting, some class was going on. That is a lot of range ammo.
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WiskyT
01-03-2012, 15:34
A my dept e go through range ammo like candy. When I was in the academy, in one day we went through 13 cases wath a14 person class. The classes average abut 24 ppl and run year round. Not to mention the days that we weren't shooting, some class was going on. That is a lot of range ammo.
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That's nice. The rest of the cops in the country do 200 rounds a year or less. Many states only qual once a year, so it's even less for them. Believe me, no police admin cares about $3.00 a case for ammo. If I wanted to, I could google state contracts that show 40 costing 3.00 a case less than 9mm, so the departments in those states would switch to 40 then due to cost, yet there are certainly 9mm issueing depertments in those states.

The fact of the matter is, 9mm isn't any cheaper than 40SW for LE purposes. You can be arguementative about it if you want, But it doesn't change the facts.

mrsurfboard
01-03-2012, 16:45
Yes, there still some dept that stayed with the 9mm. That is not a "comeback". An agency here and there going back to it isn't a comeback either. The Troopers were not happy about staying with 9mm, not the ones I talked to. I don't know of any depts where I worked switching back to 9mm.

When given the choice, like LAPD, cops opt for bigger calibers.

If given a choice, I would rather go back to the 9mm. More scores tanked when we went to .40

WiskyT
01-03-2012, 17:00
If given a choice, I would rather go back to the 9mm. More scores tanked when we went to .40

Yes, but those scores should not have tanked. It's embarassing how bad some are on the range. Guys that don't even know how to get their gun out of a level III and they've had it for two years. Bone dry guns that you can see the slide barely chugging closed. Police quals are so easy that there is no legitimate reason for guys not aceing them.

I agree that the 9mm is easier to shoot well though. I used to shoot a plate rack regularly. My times were always faster with a G17 vs a G22. Recoil and blast make good shooting harder, that's why we all shoot better with a 22 like a Buckmark or similar. But to hit a milk bottle shape the size of a human torso, with 75% of the shots at 15 yards or less, should be doable with any service cal and any service pistol.

If your personal scores went from say "A" with a 9mm to a, "A-" with a 40, it could be the gun itself too. All of our guns were the same, but I could shoot tighter groups with some more than others.. All were more than good enough to qualify and then some. So it's a given that you're a good shooter since you have an interest in it. You had a 9mm that would print nice 4" groups at the 25 yard line. Then you get issued a 40 and you're getting 6" groups. If you were a novice or a slug, you wouldn't be shooting that well to begin with, but that particular 40 just might not have shot as well as you previous 9mm did. Either way, if you shot your whole qual into a 6" group, you'd be doing pretty well.

vcunroe
03-26-2012, 18:20
Shot Placement......bottom line

cowboy1964
03-27-2012, 16:24
I find those knowledgeable about guns (hunters, etc) chose the bigger bore. Non-gun people (many leos, mall ninjas) choose the new and improved gun and caliber.

Yeah? And look at all the gun store employees who should be knowledgeable that actually don't know squat and are ridiculed on forums like this constantly.

Mas Ayoob knows guns pretty dang well and he chooses 9mm and 357 Sig when the situation warrants.

It's easy to see the advantage of a bigger bullet because all you have to do is look at it. But unless you take into account velocity the size is moot.

Haldor
03-27-2012, 21:11
Okay, I missed the fact that the 9mm sighted above is "bonded" and therefore more expensive. This is a better example, bonded 40. The price is basically the same:

Remington 29366 Premier® Golden Saber® Bonded High Performance Centerfire Pistol & Revolver 40 S&W, 165 Gr, Brass Jacketed Hollow Point Bonded, M.V. 1150 ± 50 Ft/Sec GSB40SWA $186.91 70.75% $249.21 500 $639.00 61%

Is that agency buying .40 in much higher volume than 9mm? That could explain why 9mm is not cheaper to buy.

I buy my Federal HST ammo from Streichers and am paying $27 per box of 50 rounds for 9mm. The exact same ammo in .40 costs $30 a box.

http://www.policehq.com/Products/FC-9HST
http://www.policehq.com/Products/FC-40HST

Speer Gold dot is closer in price ($27 for 9mm, $29 for .40), but there is still a difference.

BulldawgGlock
03-28-2012, 08:46
There are a few Sheriff Departments here in North East Georgia that issue 9mm as duty weapons. I went through the academy (NEGPA) with a few of them.

boomhower
03-28-2012, 17:26
We and all the agencies around us use .40. HP is using 357sig.

WiskyT
03-28-2012, 20:00
Is that agency buying .40 in much higher volume than 9mm? That could explain why 9mm is not cheaper to buy.

I buy my Federal HST ammo from Streichers and am paying $27 per box of 50 rounds for 9mm. The exact same ammo in .40 costs $30 a box.

http://www.policehq.com/Products/FC-9HST
http://www.policehq.com/Products/FC-40HST

Speer Gold dot is closer in price ($27 for 9mm, $29 for .40), but there is still a difference.

Yes, I'm not sure how it works exactly, but the states negotiate the price with the distributors and then agencies can buy it at that price. They do the same thing with cars. I remember Crown Vics being much cheaper on state contract than what you or I would pay for the same car at a Ford dealer.

But that was my point, that 9mm isn't cheaper for LEA's to buy. Even a dollar here and there isn't what decisions are made on in government bureaucracies. My dept used to buy cars NOT through the state contract at a higher price and then had to have additional equipment added to them by a third party vendor who always screwed up the electrical system. In the end we had more expensive cars that would light up the warning lights on the dash and die whenever it got above 80 degrees. We would be directing traffic in an intersection at night and the car would black out and the second car they would send would black out too. All this for cars that cost $5K more than the ones every other department had that actually worked!

We had Motorola radios that worked and were paid for. They scrapped the whole system and got Ericson radios that never worked and cost millions. They didn't even get a performance clause in the bid and we were stuck with them.

I could go on and on but I'm sure none of the readers are surprised at the idea of government waste.

Berto
03-28-2012, 20:06
It wouldn't surprise me. The 9mm is easy to train on, generally lower cost, enables higher capacity, compatible with military supply and works well with the right loads.

CBennett
03-29-2012, 06:43
Our local PD actually uses .45 GAP

SiberianErik
03-29-2012, 10:46
Most dept here use the G22, except the largest state agency which is the FL Hwy Patrol who have a choice of .45 GAP I believe they can carry either the G37 or G38. I would love a G39 but just too much $$$ for the ammo.

Other big dept's have dumped Glock all together and gone w/ the M&P 40..MY neighbor who is a Homeland Sec/ICE agent has a HK USP 45 and a select fire Colt M4. They come home w/him every night. I drool when he takes the colt out of his F150. To him its just meh..he doesn't know why I get so excited over holding it.

crazymoose
03-29-2012, 16:06
Tell that to the FBI agents in the Miami shootout, when in 1989?

The 115 grain Silvertip performed precisely as the FBI wanted it to. It was not a failure of the ammunition, it was a failure of selection criteria.

NEOH212
03-30-2012, 03:07
9mm Come Back

Only for the wimps that can't handle a .40 or larger! :tongueout:

BlackPaladin
03-30-2012, 03:12
Local LE to me has never left the 9mm. Other choices are offered at the option to the officer, but even then the 9mm was the primary.

Jake Starr
03-30-2012, 17:29
The Gold Dot definitely changed the game. it is a consistently awesome round in pretty much every caliber.



Very true.

As for me, I would rather have accuracy, multiple rounds on target with good penetration.


Fact: Traditional handgun ammunition used by the police and military (9mm, .40cal, .357Sig, .45cal) does not cavitate and produce the same such shock wave as rifle ammunition. Therefore a vital organ/artery or vassal must be directly hit/punctured in order to get the desired result. Shot placement trumps bullet diameter every time. With that in mind it would be wise to shoot the same target multiple times (3-5) to increase your chances of success. Success being defined as your enemy collapsing on the floor. If we agree that multiple hits on the same target increases our chances of success then we would have to agree that more bullets is better then less bullets and shooting faster is better then shooting slower. Considering those who with harm to us may come in pares, one would rather 15 rounds then 8. Seeing as a duty weapon will typically carry more ammo in the 9mm verity then the .45cal verity, we can conclude logically that a 9mm weapon would increase ones chance at destroying ones enemy.
Which brings me to my next point. Seeing as multiple shots are what is necessary in increase the likelihood of success over the extra 1mm of 40cal over 9mm. We could also conclude that a training target is best if it is focused on the area of the body that is most likely to contain the vital organs and vessels we spoke about earlier, ie the chest and upper torso. That being said, the distance across an average mans vital zone is going to be approximately 9inches wide (Nipple to nipple) and 12 inches long (traps to solo plexus). Our targets should emulate this hit zone.
Which brings me to my next point. Target size should increase with distance because in that moment the necessity to hit the enemy is greater then the necessity of killing him. At 25 meters and beyond, in real life when my enemy is moving and my environment is out of control and chaotic and I am under stress, I want to hit my target and draw blood. Ending the conflict at 25+ meters or even 20 meters is not realistic. The only way to end the fight is to close distance to guarantee threat neutralization. There for for training purposes I should increase my hit zone to 12 inches across (arm pit to arm pit) and (traps to pelvis), when shooting at 25meter+. I am better off shooting and hitting anywhere then not shooting at all because I could not guarantee a chest hit.
To conclude. A high capacity, light weight, concealable, durable and simple combat hand gun would serve police/military best. (Example: Glock17) A 8.5X11 inch A4 paper would serve the purpose of a combat target at distances from 3-25 meters max. Beyond that at larger (but realistic target should be used). I should be able to shoot 5 rounds from my duty gun as fast as I am able to pull the trigger at up to 7 meters on a 8.5X11 target. If I can't, then I am not ready for reality.

cowboy1964
04-02-2012, 00:40
If it don't start with .5 it ain't nothin'.

Apetrulis01
04-02-2012, 11:46
Ok, figured I would chime in on this one. First off I am a LE in South Florida. Second I am a Master class shooter in both IDPA and USPSA (just stating this to show I am am not an armchair commando).

Our Agency issues either the Glock 22 or the Glock 21. Most of the road guys are switching over to the Glock 21 becaus "It's .45" and they only know ballistics from what others have told them and movies.

I carry the Glock 22, not because I like the .40 round, but because the Glock 21 feels like I am holding a brick in my hand. To tell you the truth I do not really like the .40 SW round in general. I would carry the .45 but they will not be getting any SF or Gen 4 models.

I feel the .40 has a lot of kick for the size of the round being so high pressure. The .45s recoil impluse is easy to control as it pushes back into the hand inside of the snap up with the .40. Also, with todays 9mm ammo, especially the Gold Dot 124gr +P load, I would rather carry that round then the .40.

If my agency would let me carry a Sig 220, XDm .45, or a smaller grip .45 I would jump all over it (the 1911 would be like hitting the Mega Million jackpot). But if I had a choice between the .40 and 9mm (todays SD loads) I would rather go with the 9mm because the recoil is less, meaning faster follow ups shots on target.

Just my opinion.

Adam

CJStudent
04-02-2012, 11:50
My agency (federal) is still carrying 9mm; issued ammo used to be Speer Gold Dot, but we just switched and I don't remember just exactly what the new stuff is (I'd never seen it before). No issues with it so far.

CBennett
04-08-2012, 09:50
My agency (federal) is still carrying 9mm; issued ammo used to be Speer Gold Dot, but we just switched and I don't remember just exactly what the new stuff is (I'd never seen it before). No issues with it so far.

Its probably the one with the Ninja on the outside of the box...the Govt probably got a great "deal" on it and the guy buying it being your typical BEAN COUNTER (and having no clue as to what the people he is buying ammo for actually need) Probably saw the Box, the price and thought...man...you really cant go wrong with ninjas can ya...and stamped approved on the buy order.

DEADEYEGUY
04-08-2012, 10:27
From reading a lot of the agencies that stuck with the 9mm and good loads like the early 115gr. +P+ and much better 124gr.-127gr. never left the 9mm. Thes include Chicago PD, NYPD, LAPD and Sheriffs office. Some of them have now opened up their lists to include other calibers. But when you consider NYPD has something like 30,000 sworn officers not even counting LAPD their are still a lot of 9mm's in the hands of police.
Number wise this is a large group. Percentage of departments using .40's is huge. .357 SIG has a decnt showing especially in State Troopers. But with hte large number of officers on the large depart ments issuing 9mm they are still used quite a bit. I know lots of officers that carry 9mm as their off duty guns. And yes some departments are going back to 9mm. But not in droves. Probably too expensiv to change over in holsters and support gear for some commited to the .40.
As far as civilian sales the last I read the 9mm is still the largest selling calibr out there. Nothing wrong with .40. But I've noticd this. When Wal Marts or whatever is out of 9mm or .45 they still have plenty of .40. Just food for thought.

JAS104
04-08-2012, 13:02
My agency has optional 9mm/.40, up to personal preference. Some of the older guys stick to the 9mm because of the reduced recoil. same goes for most of the female officers or guys with artheritis, etc. My duty pistol is an M&P .40 but my off duty carry piece is a G19 gen 4.