CC Ammo Handling and Type -- Opinions? [Archive] - Glock Talk

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robhic
01-02-2012, 10:13
I've read a few posts and all seem to say different things about how to maintain ammo for CC.

I've read that the larger 9mm rounds (147 or 180) aren't as effective as the faster 115 or 124/27 gr HP. So I think I've settled on the Golden Sabers in 124gr size. I also want to do some home ballistics testing with a water jug(s) and steel plate to see what Hornady FTX ammo (HP with a rubber insert) does against the other HP SD bullets. I say "home" as in a large, private, wooded area owned by a friend.

Now -- handling the CC loads. Again I think I will load the mags, put one in the chamber and then LEAVE THEM ALONE except for removing the gun to take off the holster (I'm using a Smart Carry). How long is too long to leave this ammo loaded up? There won't be a lot of activity (like LEO would do) so I feel the problems with setback and flattening of the cases (?) wouldn't be an issue. These mags will be pretty sedentary like their owner! :supergrin:

So I'd like it for all you more knowledgeable folks to give me some input / opinions (I'm sure everyone's got one...) on handling and care of carry ammunition or other thoughts you might have. I am a newbie to CC and want to start off right.

Thanks for your time and input.

unit1069
01-02-2012, 10:28
I used to leave all my magazines loaded but recent posts by very knowledgeable GT members now prompt me to rotate carry mags on a three- or four-month schedule with the unused magazine sitting empty.

As for bullet weight effectiveness ... That's an issue that won't be conclusively answered in my next several lifetimes, if past is prologue.

hotpig
01-02-2012, 12:19
I've read a few posts and all seem to say different things about how to maintain ammo for CC.

I've read that the larger 9mm rounds (147 or 180) aren't as effective as the faster 115 or 124/27 gr HP.

Actually that is closer to being backward than correct. Modern American ammo is not velocity driven for expansion so you gain pretty much nothing from having light fast rounds. In sum cases you give up the important penetration for less important shallow expansion.

I sell tons(literally) of +P and +P+ ammo. The main thing is many find them fun and like the challenge of trying to stay on target and keep tight groups in a reasonable amount of time. I shoot a lot of it because it is readily available to me.

The dirty reality is if you put all of the bias away most of the ammo performs so close to each other it does not matter the brand or weight. The shooters ability to put rapid center mass shots into the target is what is the most important.

fredj338
01-02-2012, 12:55
The dirty reality is if you put all of the bias away most of the ammo performs so close to each other it does not matter the brand or weight. The shooters ability to put rapid center mass shots into the target is what is the most important.
Within reason, very true.
As to rotating ammo. If you carry daily, rotating the ammo out annually is a good idea. If it's a house gun, it could sit loaded for years w/ no ill affects IMO.

Tiro Fijo
01-02-2012, 13:04
I used to leave all my magazines loaded but recent posts by very knowledgeable GT members now prompt me to rotate carry mags on a three- or four-month schedule with the unused magazine sitting empty...


Huh? Many people don't realize that springs, when compressed, are in their natural state and not the opposite. Being compressed does not wear a spring out. What does wear springs is REPEATED cyclings, i.e., hard usage. You can leave a mag loaded for 50 yrs. untouched & the spring will be the same as day one.

robhic
01-02-2012, 16:59
Thanks! This is some of the stuff I was looking for. As far as my statement about heavier rounds being inferior to lower weight / higher speed (180 vs. 124) the article I read was (I think) attributed to Mas Ayoob or at least one of his "runnin' buddies."

I plan to leave the mags loaded and not rotate for a while or at least until I feel like unloading them the fun way! :supergrin: Just load, leave alone and hope my only unloading comes from voluntary or fun reasons. Not necessity.... :wow:

Tiro Fijo
01-02-2012, 17:06
Thanks! This is some of the stuff I was looking for. As far as my statement about heavier rounds being inferior to lower weight / higher speed (180 vs. 124) the article I read was (I think) attributed to Mas Ayoob or at least one of his "runnin' buddies."...


I happen to agree with him. :supergrin:

Metal_Tiger
01-02-2012, 17:40
Huh? Many people don't realize that springs, when compressed, are in their natural state and not the opposite. Being compressed does not wear a spring out. What does wear springs is REPEATED cyclings, i.e., hard usage. You can leave a mag loaded for 50 yrs. untouched & the spring will be the same as day one.

Very interesting. I have seen posts and statements like this before. I was in the old habit of cycling the magazines about once a month for home duty. At the range in a 10 round mag for the G26 my habit has been to load 5 rounds in each of 10 assorted mags because I was under the impression that not fully compressing the springs would keep them "Fresh".

I am not sure if this is good practice or not :faint:

From what you say load um up and keep um loaded? Where can I get data on this for magazine springs? Thanks for the quesiton.

barth
01-02-2012, 17:53
9x19 Win Ranger +P+ |115@1320, 21.7 mv, 444 E|BR 9.6", 0.53", 2.11cu|CL 10.2", 0.65", 3.37cu|avg 2.74, 3.89 re, 0.70
9x19 - caliber
Win Ranger +P+ - the name of the load
115@1320 - bullet mass in grains @ muzzle velocity
21.7 mv - bullet momentum in lb*fps
444 E - muzzle energy in ftlbs
BR - what follows is the data for bare gelatin
9.6" inches of penetration
0.53", final expanded diameter of bullet
2.11 cu, approximation of wound volume. (this does not take into account the expansion profile as a function of depth, but it should be roughly proportionate to actual wound volume)
CL - what follows is the data for clothed gelatin
same fields as the bare gelatin, as defined above
avg 2.74 - Average wound volume, clothed and bare gelatin
3.89 re - Free Recoil Energy, assuming a 1.88 lb pistol
0.70 - Average would volume per unit Free Recoil Energy.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
9x19 Win Ranger Talon|147@ 864, 18.1 mv, 243 E|BR 13.8", 0.61", 4.03cu|CL 15.2", 0.59", 4.17cu|avg 4.10, 2.72 re, 1.51
9x19 Win Ranger Talon|147@1017, 21.4 mv, 337 E|BR 13.8", 0.66", 4.70cu|CL 15.5", 0.65", 5.14cu|avg 4.92, 3.77 re, 1.31
9x19 Win Ranger +P+ |115@1320, 21.7 mv, 444 E|BR 9.6", 0.53", 2.11cu|CL 10.2", 0.65", 3.37cu|avg 2.74, 3.89 re, 0.70
9x19 3-D |115@1178, 19.4 mv, 354 E|BR 11.6", 0.54", 2.66cu|CL 13.9", 0.48", 2.52cu|avg 2.59, 3.10 re, 0.84
9x19 Rem +P+ |115@1221, 20.1 mv, 380 E|BR 10.8", 0.63", 3.37cu|CL 10.9", 0.62", 3.29cu|avg 3.33, 3.33 re, 1.00
9x19 CCI/Speer GD |115@1259, 20.7 mv, 404 E|BR 12.3", 0.67", 4.35cu|CL 22.1", 0.40", 2.78cu|avg 3.43, 3.54 re, 0.97
9x19 CCI/Speer GD |115@1197, 19.7 mv, 365 E|BR 12.8", 0.67", 4.51cu|CL 22.6", 0.44", 3.44cu|avg 3.78, 3.20 re, 1.18
9x19 CorBon +P |115@1317, 21.6 mv, 442 E|BR 8.9", 0.52", 1.90cu|CL 10.2", 0.61", 2.98cu|avg 2.44, 3.87 re, 0.63
9x19 Fed +P |115@1237, 20.3 mv, 390 E|BR 11.2", 0.53", 2.48cu|CL 10.6", 0.62", 3.20cu|avg 2.84, 3.41 re, 0.83
9x19 Fed Silvertip |115@1091, 17.9 mv, 304 E|BR 10.1", 0.63", 3.13cu|CL 11.8", 0.58", 3.12cu|avg 3.13, 2.66 re, 1.18
9x19 CCI/Speer GD +P |124@1223, 21.7 mv, 411 E|BR 13.4", 0.68", 4.87cu|CL 20.2", 0.53", 4.47cu|avg 4.64, 3.88 re, 1.20
9x19 CCI/Speer GD |124@1116, 19.8 mv, 342 E|BR 11.8", 0.69", 4.41cu|CL 22.0", 0.36", 2.24cu|avg 3.22, 3.23 re, 1.00
9x19 Rem |124@1109, 19.6 mv, 338 E|BR 12.4", 0.60", 3.52cu|CL 13.7", 0.57", 3.50cu|avg 3.51, 3.19 re, 1.10
9x19 PMC/Eldorado SF |124@1118, 19.8 mv, 344 E|BR 10.7", 0.63", 3.32cu|CL 20.1", 0.41", 2.65cu|avg 2.98, 3.24 re, 0.92
9x19 CorBon XTP |124@1123, 19.9 mv, 347 E|BR 13.9", 0.56", 3.44cu|CL 18.3", 0.46", 3.04cu|avg 3.24, 3.27 re, 0.99
9x19 Fed HydraShok |147@ 935, 19.6 mv, 285 E|BR 13.6", 0.60", 3.85cu|CL 16.1", 0.52", 3.41cu|avg 3.63, 3.19 re, 1.14
9x19 Win Black Talon |147@ 946, 19.9 mv, 292 E|BR 14.8", 0.60", 4.20cu|CL 16.4", 0.61", 4.78cu|avg 4.49, 3.26 re, 1.38
9x19 Rem |147@ 987, 20.7 mv, 318 E|BR 18.1", 0.51", 3.71cu|CL 15.9", 0.59", 4.36cu|avg 4.03, 3.55 re, 1.14
9x19 Hornady XTP |147@ 918, 19.3 mv, 275 E|BR 22.1", 0.44", 3.36cu|CL 20.5", 0.46", 3.41cu|avg 3.18, 3.07 re, 1.04
9x19 Fed HydraShok |147@ 995, 20.9 mv, 323 E|BR 21.4", 0.37", 2.30cu|CL 15.6", 0.60", 4.41cu|avg 3.28, 3.61 re, 0.91
9x19 Win Silvertip |147@ 902, 18.9 mv, 265 E|BR 14.6", 0.53", 3.22cu|CL 18.1", 0.47", 3.14cu|avg 3.18, 2.97 re, 1.07
9x19 CCI/Speer GD+P |124@1155, 20.5 mv, 367 E|BR 13.2", 0.62", 3.99cu|CL 16.1", 0.53", 3.55cu|avg 3.77, 3.46 re, 1.09
9x19 CCI/Speer GD |124@1068, 18.9 mv, 314 E|BR 12.6", 0.59", 3.44cu|CL 17.5", 0.51", 3.57cu|avg 3.51, 2.96 re, 1.19
9x19 CCI/Speer GD |147@ 924, 19.4 mv, 278 E|BR 14.8", 0.57", 3.78cu|CL 14.7", 0.55", 3.49cu|avg 3.63, 3.11 re, 1.17
9x19 Win Ranger PG |124@1015, 18.0 mv, 283 E|BR 12.5", 0.65", 4.15cu|CL 14.0", 0.61", 4.09cu|avg 4.12, 2.67 re, 1.54
9x19 Win Ranger T |147@1016, 21.3 mv, 337 E|BR 13.8", 0.66", 4.72cu|CL 15.7", 0.00", 0.00cu|avg 2.36, 3.76 re, 0.63

Tiro Fijo
01-02-2012, 18:01
...I am not sure if this is good practice or not :faint:

From what you say load um up and keep um loaded? Where can I get data on this for magazine springs? Thanks for the quesiton.


Does your car motor wear out by sitting in the driveway? Think about it. :wavey:

Doc8404
01-02-2012, 18:07
you will drive yourself nuts trying to figure it out. Most of the rounds today are good to go. Personally, I've settled on Golden Saber 124 grain +P for my Glock 19 Gen 4....

dkf
01-02-2012, 18:27
Huh? Many people don't realize that springs, when compressed, are in their natural state and not the opposite. Being compressed does not wear a spring out. What does wear springs is REPEATED cyclings, i.e., hard usage. You can leave a mag loaded for 50 yrs. untouched & the spring will be the same as day one.

Hardly

Springs compressed for long periods of time can have a shorter "free length" than when they were new and installed. I've seen it over the years on springs made from stainless steel, steel, piano wire, phosphor bronze and etc. A compressed spring is far from its "natural state", whatever thats supposed to mean in spring terms anyway.

People read too much wrong info on the net with zero experience in the matter and keep spreading it to others.


That said I keep my mags loaded mainly because I never know when I need them and do not really like loading mags all the time. I do not have a problem taking the mags apart every now and then for cleaning, inspection and possible spring or follower replacement.

Tiro Fijo
01-02-2012, 19:56
Hardly

Springs compressed for long periods of time can have a shorter "free length" than when they were new and installed. I've seen it over the years on springs made from stainless steel, steel, piano wire, phosphor bronze and etc. A compressed spring is far from its "natural state", whatever thats supposed to mean in spring terms anyway.

People read too much wrong info on the net with zero experience in the matter and keep spreading it to others.


That said I keep my mags loaded mainly because I never know when I need them and do not really like loading mags all the time. I do not have a problem taking the mags apart every now and then for cleaning, inspection and possible spring or follower replacement.


When a custom spring is supplied longer than specified to compensate for length loss when fully compressed in assembly by customer, this is referred to as “Allow for Set”.

http://springipedia.com/compression-stress-spring.asp

I have mags loaded for 25yrs. and they still are the same today as new in 1986. I have checked them through the years. You are confusing the initial spring "set" for wear.

The only mag springs I ever replaced were on some old "zipperback" SIG mags that had trouble with +p+ ammo. I changed them out for Wolff +10% mag springs.

If springs wear out from merely sitting aorund then why don't you change your valve springs on your car every couple years? :wavey:

Springs wear out from USAGE and not merely being compressed. Ask an engineer.

unit1069
01-02-2012, 20:03
The dirty reality is if you put all of the bias away most of the ammo performs so close to each other it does not matter the brand or weight. The shooters ability to put rapid center mass shots into the target is what is the most important.

From all the tests and data that have been published I'm inclined to agree also. That said, I've also read that the higher pressure rounds' biggest advantage is providing more reliable cycling of a gun's slide. What is your take on that?

dkf
01-02-2012, 20:42
Double

dkf
01-02-2012, 20:45
http://springipedia.com/compression-stress-spring.asp

I have mags loaded for 25yrs. and they still are the same today as new in 1986. I have checked them through the years. You are confusing the initial spring "set" for wear.

The only mag springs I ever replaced were on some old "zipperback" SIG mags that had trouble with +p+ ammo. I changed them out for Wolff +10% mag springs.

If springs wear out from merely sitting aorund then why don't you change your valve springs on your car every couple years? :wavey:

Springs wear out from USAGE and not merely being compressed. Ask an engineer.

I'm not saying the springs wear out from compression and by being held in a static state for long time periods. I'm saying the properties of springs performance changes.

BTW what were the specs on your mag spring.(Free length 25 years ago, measured spring rate 25 years ago, free length now, measured spring rate now?

Your entitled to believe what you want. I've dealt with springs in various applications enough to know better. I've also made and engineered my own springs. But you can use a search engine so....

hotpig
01-02-2012, 22:55
From all the tests and data that have been published I'm inclined to agree also. That said, I've also read that the higher pressure rounds' biggest advantage is providing more reliable cycling of a gun's slide. What is your take on that?

True, many times I forget that I have a few +P+ stragglers loaded in a mag with standard pressure ammo. I can tell more by the slide action than the increased recoil.

fredj338
01-02-2012, 23:09
ANother note about rotating carry ammo. Bullet setback form continuely rechambering is a serious issue w/ high pressure/small volume rounds like the 357sig & 40, even the 9mm should be watched. If the rounds start looking shorter than factory new, time to retire them. As little as 116" setback can severely raise pressures.

Tiro Fijo
01-02-2012, 23:34
I'm not saying the springs wear out from compression and by being held in a static state for long time periods. I'm saying the properties of springs performance changes...


I addressed that earlier when I mentioned the "allow for set" that they engineer into HANDGUN MAGAZINE springs. I am not talking watch springs, bed springs, etc.

robhic
01-03-2012, 10:20
ANother note about rotating carry ammo. Bullet setback form continuely rechambering is a serious issue w/ high pressure/small volume rounds like the 357sig & 40, even the 9mm should be watched.

Interesting. I was planning to chamber a round and leave it. It wouldn't leave the barrel until I shot it for some reason. Is re-chambering common? Maybe unloading with small kids in the house (I live alone) but otherwise?

This is more of what I am looking for. The less I handle the ammo /mags the better. Load, chamber and leave alone until 1) needed or 2) shooting practice. Then reload, chamber ONCE and leave alone.

Thanks to all. And Barth, you did a LOT of work man!!! Wow....

dkf
01-03-2012, 10:45
Interesting. I was planning to chamber a round and leave it. It wouldn't leave the barrel until I shot it for some reason. Is re-chambering common? Maybe unloading with small kids in the house (I live alone) but otherwise?

This is more of what I am looking for. The less I handle the ammo /mags the better. Load, chamber and leave alone until 1) needed or 2) shooting practice. Then reload, chamber ONCE and leave alone.



You can leave the round in the pipe long term no problem.

When you carry a gun on regular basis it tends to get lint, fuzzys, dirt and etc on it so you clean the gun fairly regularly. You obviously have to unload the gun for cleaning. Practice at the range, going into a place where the gun has to be checked and cleared, adding new parts, and etc are other common times when a round is removed from the chamber.

I just keep an eye on the overall length of the round and try to keep the amount of times the round is rechambered down.

fredj338
01-03-2012, 13:04
Interesting. I was planning to chamber a round and leave it. It wouldn't leave the barrel until I shot it for some reason. Is re-chambering common? Maybe unloading with small kids in the house (I live alone) but otherwise?

This is more of what I am looking for. The less I handle the ammo /mags the better. Load, chamber and leave alone until 1) needed or 2) shooting practice. Then reload, chamber ONCE and leave alone.

Thanks to all. And Barth, you did a LOT of work man!!! Wow....

Many CCW & LEO load & unload every day. So watching the chambered round is important. Last thing you need in a gunfight is your gun going KB on the first round.:faint: