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dryfly
01-03-2012, 16:05
Hey gang a friend just gave me a box of 10mm 200grain SXT Winchester Black Talons.....

I wikki'd "Black Talon"...didnt really learn much....other than they are known for extremely sharp petals....and that the ammo is hyped on urban myth and urban legend....

What do I do with this ammo....plink it? hunt with it? load my hd/sd mag with them? Or just keep it in the safe for a rainy day?

TX expat
01-03-2012, 16:18
It's SD ammo. Shoot some to verify it works well in your pistol and use the rest as a SD load. Or just save it. I've got a couple of boxes but I don't use it in my carry gun. They still make it, it's just marketed for LE only now, but it can still be had.

Ethereal Killer
01-03-2012, 16:24
I'd sell it and buy better ammo like a gold dot.

that stuff is like 3 or 4 generations behind current winchester ranger ammo. it's worth more to some sucker who dont know the facts than it is as actual ammo.

_The_Shadow
01-03-2012, 19:58
The Black Talon ammo goes for premium prices of $40,$50 to $60 for a box of 20 rounds. Other than being a 980 fps 200gr HP not much other than hype!

michael e
01-03-2012, 20:02
Sale it, people will pay way to much for it. With that money buy you a few boxes of new SD ammo, shot a box to make sure your gun likes it, and still have some for SD.

Opie 1 Kenopie
01-03-2012, 21:32
It's the same stuff as the Winchester Ranger LE we shoot on duty. Except the jacket no longer separates from the core, making those wicked looking talons. Sell that stuff. For SD there is much better ammo available these days.

_The_Shadow
01-03-2012, 21:50
It's the same stuff as the Winchester Ranger LE we shoot on duty. Except the jacket no longer separates from the core, making those wicked looking talons. Sell that stuff. For SD there is much better ammo available these days.

Does Winchester still make it in 10mm with 200 grain bullets?

I did see the Ranger in 40S&W! If he doesn't reload then its a bust! :faint:

rcd567
01-03-2012, 22:18
Boy oh boy you've certainly made some enemies here! The one thing your new "friends" have failed to tell you is that the powder is highly poisonous. If you shoot that stuff you'll be in bad shape.

Lucky for you I just happen to be a certified hazmat disposer. Send it to me and I'll get rid of it for you. Since we're all 10 ring members I'll waive the normal fees.:embarassed:

oceanbob
01-04-2012, 07:38
I bought a bunch just before it was discontinued. It was good stuff back in 1993. If the box is in good shape, keep it to sell in the future. Gun Shows are at $60 now a box.

Bob

TX expat
01-04-2012, 08:25
Wow, that's crazy! I've seen them locally and they seem to stay for sale forever and nobody is asking that kind of money for them...

If that's the case, I'll definitely amend my earlier post and say sell 'em if you can get anywhere near that sort of bank for them. They most certainly aren't worth it and you could buy 100 rounds of HST for that kind of cash.

notjustanothermini
01-04-2012, 11:45
it is a first gen sct bullet non bonded, with a lubalox coating to help feed in less than perfect running autos in the duty field.

that said, it looks cool, but subsonic, the .40 black talon load in 180 grains is also 980 fps.

keep it as a keep sake, i would not carry it due to the already decades w0rth of bad reputation for being a "mean and nasty bullet, designed to maliciously kill someone" as if all bullets arent designed that way.lol

or yo u could load em up in a mac-10 and reinact lethal weapon 2 scene with the bull dozer. black talons ripped right through the darn bucket of the dozer/front loader. they must be good

Glock411
01-04-2012, 12:15
It's the same stuff as the Winchester Ranger LE we shoot on duty. Except the jacket no longer separates from the core, making those wicked looking talons. Sell that stuff. For SD there is much better ammo available these days.

Ditto

Somthing like Ranger LE is all you need. If you shot anyone with Black Talon ammo, The lawyers would have a field day with you. Black Talon ammo has been pretty much labeled as a wicked killing ammo. The courts could see that as anyone using Black Talon ammo in their gun was looking to kill someone not to protect themselves.

Sell it to a collector

Opie 1 Kenopie
01-04-2012, 14:10
Shoot it into some water jugs or wet phonebooks. Then recover the "talons" and have a conversation piece. Use em as a comb! A beverage can holder! A golf tee! A stand for your olives! Hours of fun for the whole family!

dryfly
01-04-2012, 14:39
Thanks gang....They are now going to the back of my safe for the time being....

Glock411's "the lawyers would have a field day with you" thing is all I needed to hear....

MinervaDoe
01-04-2012, 15:10
Ditto

Somthing like Ranger LE is all you need. If you shot anyone with Black Talon ammo, The lawyers would have a field day with you. Black Talon ammo has been pretty much labeled as a wicked killing ammo. The courts could see that as anyone using Black Talon ammo in their gun was looking to kill someone not to protect themselves.

Sell it to a collector
They got a bad rap when they first came out because when the jackets peeled back, they had sharp edges. As a result, some emergency room doctors got their fingers cut during surgery. There was a big concern about the doctors getting HIV through their cuts. So, it got publicized.

Then, the press got hold of it and interpretted the doctors concerns about the sharp edged jackets as meaning that Black Talons were these wildly spinning buzz saw cop killer bullets.
So, Winchester pulled them off the market and now markets the latest generation as Ranger, law enforcement ammo.

The press cracks me up. I don't think they ever get anything right.

notjustanothermini
01-04-2012, 19:15
They got a bad rap when they first came out because when the jackets peeled back, they had sharp edges. As a result, some emergency room doctors got their fingers cut during surgery. There was a big concern about the doctors getting HIV through their cuts. So, it got publicized.

not true.

i am a winchester SXT fanboy, i carry pdx's and ranger T's in everything i have.

i did a ton of research on the black talon, ranger, ranger t, sxt, pdxi, silver tips (not the same, but from winchester also)

the ER room doctor thing was never reality, it never happend, some politician, got a hold of testing results and saw the expanded bullet, talons and all, and assumed that the ER doctors who would be trying to same someons life after being shot by one could cut their fingers on the bullet, saying that the bullet still had a potential to damage even after being shot.

funny cuzz the ranger t line is a black talon without the color, never heard of any ER doc' cutting themselves on those, did is cease to happen cuzz the color was now copper and not black? quite a coincidence. it is not a coincidence, cuzz no doc got cut on the talons at all

believe half of what you read none of what you hear, and some of what you see

TX expat
01-04-2012, 19:23
Thanks gang....They are now going to the back of my safe for the time being....

Glock411's "the lawyers would have a field day with you" thing is all I needed to hear....

Well in all honesty, if they want to use that argument it'll apply to any anything that isn't off the shelf, normal stuff. HST and Ranger T are both labeled for LE use only, so some attorney would be just as likely to try and use that against you too.

MinervaDoe
01-04-2012, 19:45
... believe half of what you read none of what you hear, and some of what you see
:supergrin: So, which half does your statement fall in? :supergrin:


The ammunition was targeted by those opposed to civilian ownership of handguns.<SUP id=cite_ref-6 class=reference>[7] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Talon#cite_note-6)</SUP><SUP id=cite_ref-7 class=reference>[8] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Talon#cite_note-7)</SUP><SUP id=cite_ref-8 class=reference>[9] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Talon#cite_note-8)</SUP> Some medical personnel were concerned that the sharp barb like tips could potentially cause tears in the surgical gloves and hands of the medical workers, exposing them to greater risk of infection,<SUP id=cite_ref-taxdebate_1-2 class=reference>[2] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Talon#cite_note-taxdebate-1)</SUP> however there are no documented reports of this actually happening.<SUP id=cite_ref-9 class=reference></SUP>
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Talon



In 2007 Winchester updated their Ranger SXT line and renamed it Ranger T-Series. Besides further dimensional changes to the hollow point for reliable expansion, the trademark perpendicular petals were made longer yet more rounded at the tips to retain stiffness.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Talon


I do remember the press guess-timating how many RPM's the buzz saw like black talons would be spinning and describing the wound channel that they would cut. Very sad propaganda.

I've got four boxes of 9mm 147 grain Black Talons. If I believe the prices I hear on this forum, I should be able to sell them for a tidy profit at some point.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/f0/Winchester_Black_Talon_10mm.jpg/800px-Winchester_Black_Talon_10mm.jpg

Opie 1 Kenopie
01-04-2012, 21:18
not true.

i am a winchester SXT fanboy, i carry pdx's and ranger T's in everything i have.

i did a ton of research on the black talon, ranger, ranger t, sxt, pdxi, silver tips (not the same, but from winchester also)

the ER room doctor thing was never reality, it never happend, some politician, got a hold of testing results and saw the expanded bullet, talons and all, and assumed that the ER doctors who would be trying to same someons life after being shot by one could cut their fingers on the bullet, saying that the bullet still had a potential to damage even after being shot.

funny cuzz the ranger t line is a black talon without the color, never heard of any ER doc' cutting themselves on those, did is cease to happen cuzz the color was now copper and not black? quite a coincidence. it is not a coincidence, cuzz no doc got cut on the talons at all

believe half of what you read none of what you hear, and some of what you see

As a fanboy, you should know that the Ranger T ammo is NOT the same as the old Talons. Yet another Internet myth. Pull any T ammo from a water jug. You WILL NOT find the sharp talons any longer. It is normal expanding hollow point ammo whose jacket is now bonded to the core, eliminating the sharp jacket blades of yesteryear.

Ethereal Killer
01-04-2012, 21:30
well I see people asking $50 a box for them but I've never seen a box sell at that price. I do know that you could get $1 a round for them without too much problem, MAYBE $2, but over that and you better be selling it in LA county to some gang bangers.

TX expat
01-04-2012, 22:01
As a fanboy, you should know that the Ranger T ammo is NOT the same as the old Talons. Yet another Internet myth. Pull any T ammo from a water jug. You WILL NOT find the sharp talons any longer. It is normal expanding hollow point ammo whose jacket is now bonded to the core, eliminating the sharp jacket blades of yesteryear.

http://www.hipowersandhandguns.com/BHP%20and%20147%20gr%20Ammo.htm

Bottom of the page there is a side by side of the SXT in two different weights. The +P looks just about identical to any Black Talon image I've ever seen. And a quick Google image search for Ranger SXT brings up a boatload of images that don't agree with what you're saying.

I'm not saying you are mistaken or correct because I've never water-jugged any SXT rounds to see for myself, but there appear to be plenty of images of that round with those same sharp, upturned 'talons'. I've never had any luck finding any locally and I've never tried to just buy 'em from an internet vendor since everybody says they are restricted sales.

notjustanothermini
01-05-2012, 09:28
As a fanboy, you should know that the Ranger T ammo is NOT the same as the old Talons. Yet another Internet myth. Pull any T ammo from a water jug. You WILL NOT find the sharp talons any longer. It is normal expanding hollow point ammo whose jacket is now bonded to the core, eliminating the sharp jacket blades of yesteryear.

although the "talons" are more blunt at the tip, tell me that wont rip the **** out of flesh moving at 1000fps, and spinning all crazy and such. they made it "look" less evil, still holds the cutting up

yes the bonded wont petal real sharp, but the non bonded line will tear through flesh just like the black talon, heck even the bonded's ones will,

I'm not saying you are mistaken or correct because I've never water-jugged any SXT rounds to see for myself, but there appear to be plenty of images of that round with those same sharp, upturned 'talons'. I've never had any luck finding any locally and I've never tried to just buy 'em from an internet vendor since everybody says they are restricted sales.

you are right about the images, as long as it is not a bonded winchester JHP, they will petal, the petal's are jacket seperation. the difference in the talon line was the whole bullet was just JHP, the sxt line has the hollopoint cavity non bonded and the base bonded. then the pdx and "BONDED" LE line are totally bonded.

i have juged some hers one this is a winchester "q4369" any box marked Qxxxx were imperfections or inconsistencies during batch testing
http://i1214.photobucket.com/albums/cc482/notjustanothermini/DSCF7409.jpg

rcd567
01-05-2012, 11:14
Y'all didn't even mention the tiny little aliens inside each bullet. Had to get the chain saw started shortly after ignition.:ufo:

http://i80.photobucket.com/albums/j163/rcd567/10511031.jpg

21Carrier
01-05-2012, 22:15
Y'all didn't even mention the tiny little aliens inside each bullet. Had to get the chain saw started shortly after ignition.:ufo:

http://i80.photobucket.com/albums/j163/rcd567/10511031.jpg

That guy is such a crackhead! His fake tan and hair just kill me.

I have a single 10mm Black Talon. I bought a box with two in it for $2 at a gun show. I tested one (reloaded to about 1100fps), and saved the other. The one I tested did pretty well, but over-expanded at that velocity. I think it would be a pretty good SD bullet. However, I would never even think about carrying them. If you did shoot someone, and found yourself in court, you would hear several days worth of "expert" testimony on why your choice of the Black Talon was reckless, super-deadly, and likely killed kittens.

MinervaDoe
01-05-2012, 22:53
I have a single 10mm Black Talon. I bought a box with two in it for $2 at a gun show. I tested one (reloaded to about 1100fps), and saved the other.
This reminds me of a scene in Stephen Kings, Silver Bullet.

Did you remember to rub your one remaining Black Talon in garlic?

Black Talon ... reckless, super-deadly, and likely killed kittens.
:rofl:

TDC20
01-05-2012, 23:25
If I recall correctly, it was Sen. Charles Schumer who called Black Talons the "spinning blades of death." Of course, Mr. Schumer has never had anything positive to say publicly about guns.

If you were to shoot someone with Black Talons, I don't doubt that a State's Attorney in a non gun-friendly state or city would try to make an issue of it. Just Google the Harold Fish incident in AZ if you're not already familiar with it. At trial, they made an issue out of the fact that Fish shot some psychotic guy attacking him with a 10mm (why did he need to use such a big caliber? :upeyes:) and several of the jurors interviewed after the verdict said the "big scary 10mm" was a factor in their decision to convict. If he had used a 10mm and Black Talons, they probably would have accused him of using WMD's.

dryfly
01-06-2012, 06:23
Well I guess if $50.00 were to magically appear in my mailbox with an address I would be getting rid of them. They look brand new....I am not all that keen on owning them now....not a fan of cats either...

K1500
01-06-2012, 14:48
With approx. A 1 in 10 twist rate, they are only doing 1 to 1.5 revolution in the thickness of an average torso. Hardly "spinning all crazy and stuff". Also, a Q in a Winchester product number does not denote a defective batch.

dryfly
01-06-2012, 16:58
Is it legal for me to sell this box of ammo or am I breaking some law i dont know about?

rcd567
01-06-2012, 18:13
Is it legal for me to sell this box of ammo or am I breaking some law i dont know about?

Yep, completely legal.

Opie 1 Kenopie
01-07-2012, 13:22
Perfectly legal. There are no laws against using, buying, owning or shooting Talons. Olin simply pulled the line when negative publicity made them out to be "Demon Pills".

As for the comparison pics, I've only shot/recovered Ranger T in .40. It's what we shoot at work. As you can see in the pic above, there are "talons", but they are rolled back, bonded to the core and no longer stick way out there like the old ones used to. Hardly a buzz saw looking round.

Black&TAN
01-07-2012, 14:05
As cool as they look, and as much as I have thought about owning a box or two of those black-tipped beauties, haven't been able to bring myself to it knowing there is current bullet tech that outperforms. A nice addition to any ammo collection though, if you have the scratch.

A buddy of mine picked up his first pistol, a G17, about a year ago. Last week he says his HD mag is chock-full o' Talons. I just didn't have the heart to tell him...

sent via Tapatalk

oldsoldier
01-07-2012, 14:26
http://www.hipowersandhandguns.com/BHP%20and%20147%20gr%20Ammo.htm

Bottom of the page there is a side by side of the SXT in two different weights. The +P looks just about identical to any Black Talon image I've ever seen. And a quick Google image search for Ranger SXT brings up a boatload of images that don't agree with what you're saying.

I'm not saying you are mistaken or correct because I've never water-jugged any SXT rounds to see for myself, but there appear to be plenty of images of that round with those same sharp, upturned 'talons'. I've never had any luck finding any locally and I've never tried to just buy 'em from an internet vendor since everybody says they are restricted sales.

It's not hard to find SXT for sale from various vendors on the internet. Go ahead and buy it if you want it. There is nothing illegal about you owning it. HST is a different story. I rarely find it for sale. It's legal too.

X-ray 4N6
01-07-2012, 15:13
Want to know about the Ranger SXT line? Check here:

http://iaaforum.org/forum3/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=207

TX expat
01-07-2012, 16:22
It's not hard to find SXT for sale from various vendors on the internet. Go ahead and buy it if you want it. There is nothing illegal about you owning it. HST is a different story. I rarely find it for sale. It's legal too.

I've always picked up my HST from this place (probably giving away my ammo secret here!):

http://www.policehq.com

Sometimes you have to wait if they don't have it in stock but they have always shipped out promptly when I've placed an in stock order. I usually pick up several boxes of whatever I need and that will last me for a while since I don't use it as a regular practice round.

notjustanothermini
01-08-2012, 13:28
the q in the white box 180 grain bonded hollow points does designate a incosistancy or flaw somewhere. at least thats what winchester told me on the phone.

this is their exact words
"Rejected, "reclassified", or possessing some other attribute that made it unsuitable for sale for it's intended uses. Training/practice use only"

usually there will be a Z in it, that is the letter denoting the flaw/reclassification/defect, sorry not the Z. but im sure YOU already knew that, by how you just jump on and say "it aint defective, alot of winchester has a Q in it" well then if it aint a FMJ, and its a round that would usually cost 1 per shot, and you get 50 of them in a generic package, would that not tell you something.

also the winchester 180g bonded JHP, is only 391 lbs of muzzle energy. it subsonic also and out a 3" gun barely 900 fps

K1500
01-08-2012, 22:05
It is pretty hard to decipher your post above, but from what I gather from your rambling, you assert that all Q loads are defective. Q loadings typically denote loadings of lower cost/bulk/gov spec type ammo. For example, Q3131 stands for the Winchester 55gr FMJ 5.56x45 loading. The Q4240 load is their .44 mag 240 gr jsp USA loading. I am sure that Winchester may market some lots of ammo that fail to meet spec, such as the aforementioned bonded 40 load, but to assert that all Q loads are flaws/defects is ludicrous.

notjustanothermini
01-09-2012, 15:03
hardly reambling, i was mistaken , the Q is not the defective indication it is the Z in the product number. Z not Q. either way it is off topic. sorry

broncobuddha1
01-10-2012, 08:46
I had a few, not even a box worth so I shot them at the range on Sunday. Total kitty cats compared to everything else I was shooting.