10mm for Elk? [Archive] - Glock Talk

PDA

View Full Version : 10mm for Elk?


cablecutter
01-08-2012, 16:29
Is 10mm ethical for hunting an Elk? I know a guy here in Utah that went hunting with his G20, I know he has some max loads worked up. What are the thoughts from the 10 ringers on hunting elk with a G20?

Sorry I didn't want to hijack the other hunting thread.

Outdoor Hub mobile, the outdoor information engine

Kegs
01-08-2012, 17:00
I believe it is 100% ethical as long as range is limited to what can be consistently achieve a minimum level of accuracy of approximately 5".

Some say pie plate, but that could mean gut shot. Better safe than sorry - ruining the meat isn't cool.

The 10 mil will do the trick. Go heavy and fast for those.

This is one of the activities I had in mind for the G29 when I bought it.

Colorado says "expanding bullet ; minimum velocity 550 ft/lbs. @ 50y"

I say: 10mm 180gr xtp @ 1400 fps. :supergrin: :wavey:

harley45
01-08-2012, 18:09
There is a TV personality named Razor Dobbs who I follow on Facebook and on TV. He recently took a nice one from a private preserve in Texas. I asked what loads he uses in his RZ-10 and he indicate the Hornady Factory 200 gr. So yes it can be done, and at some point I intend to take a Red Stag with mine!

jtull7
01-08-2012, 18:22
I think that it is unethical. An elk is a BIG animal and they are very hard to get close to.

Taterhead
01-08-2012, 18:32
Flip over to rifle pages and you will find lengthy arguments about whether a .25-06 Remington is enough rifle for elk. Probably is enough rifle, but on the bubble. My 25-06 handloads would have at least 1800 more lb/ft of muzzle energy than a 10mm.

The only ethical way to hunt an elk with a 10mm is to get close enough to place a shot behind the shoulder. Broadside presentation. A shoulder shot may leave a wounded, but hard to track , animal. Hunting an animal with a platform that leaves very little margin for error is of dubious ethics in my opinion. If you can get that perfect shot, I am sure that a heavy XTP or a WFNGC bullet would work.

_The_Shadow
01-08-2012, 20:26
I know if I were presented with the chance to make a great shot I'd take it...that being said the conditions would need to be what I would feel would make for a humane kill!
First.....Know youself and your limitations...Don't exceed your guidelines for the task!
Second.Know your equipment and your skill with it...practice, trigger control and accuracy are key elements.
Third....Know your animal as a target, as well as a food source, clean kill, proper care to bring the animal preperation.

I would use the Hornady 200 grain XTP @ 1200-1250 fps inside of 150 feet to have the energy needed to deliver a precision shot.

rcd567
01-08-2012, 21:04
I wouldn't think so since I was told by an outfitter once that my 270 Winchester rifle wasn't enough.:wow: But hey, I didn't get drawn so no worries for me. Never killed one, always wanted to. Oh well...

mtn_hunter
01-08-2012, 22:04
I think Taterhead and Shadow summed it up well but what one also needs to consider is that elk are large and come in many different sizes. What will work on a calf in antlerless season (think nice size buck deer) will not work on a mature bull. The cows can vary is size as well. This will impact your ability to make an accurate determination of distance, it is easy to mis-judge ditances on these animals if you haven't hunted them before, maybe you have. This is even more critical with handgun hunting. So to the op are you meat hunting or trophy hunting, keep that in mind.

As for Colorado hunting a stock G29 would be illegal, minimum 4" so I hope you have an aftermarket barrel.

If a guide thinks a .270 is too light he is an idiot or trying to sell you a rifle. I have friends that have cleanly taken mature bulls with a .270. I get so tired of all the big gun bravado. Like everything else it's about shot placement. I have downed many elk over the years with my 7mm mag (many bullet weights) and more recently with my cap lock .50 cal hawken kit rifle shooting a 330 gr self cast conical over 90 grains of fff. That did just as much damage as my 7 mm mag at 50 - 75 yds, based on my unscientific eyeball assessment and memory of past hunts.

If I were hunting antlerless it would be 200gr lead at about 1250+ fps standing broadside, rib cage hit, 50 yard max.

By the way pie plate is smaller than the kill zone on any elk but you should not think of that size to be a substitute for accuracy.

21Carrier
01-08-2012, 23:48
I think it's ethical, as long as you make yourself some ethical guidelines AND FOLLOW THEM. You would have to SWEAR to yourself that you would ONLY shoot under perfect conditions (broadside, within your accuracy range). I have no doubt that a 200gr WFNGC or even an XTP would penetrate more than enough with a broadside shot placement. You just have to FULLY prepare yourself to pass on what may be many potential shots. If you're the type that lacks complete self-control in exciting situations, I wouldn't try it. Remember, there's a reason "pulling out" is not an effective method of birth control. Self-control is not always easy. :supergrin: Sorry, I know that one was especially dirty.

redbaron007
01-09-2012, 09:11
An 'ethical' kill is only based upon the individual hunter. It is a human emotion humans place on animals? Do you think nature has 'ethical' kills? What about bow hunters, are those 'ethical' kills? What about a bunch of wolves attacking an elk, is that 'ethical'? That elk suffers tremendously. Did our indian forefathers kill animals quick and painlessly with a crude arrowhead and long bow? YMMV

Now, getting to the OP's question; IMHO, yes, a 10mm will do just fine. I will say this, know your range and accuracy for your weapon; with this information, there is a higher probability you will recover the animal.


:wavey:

red

Kegs
01-09-2012, 18:09
What are you Bill Clinton? We all know what "sexual" means and if you're a hunter, you know damned well what ethical means.

Get with the program.

Now, I'd like to take a moment and tell each and every one of you that I plan on killing a big bull elk with my G29 before too long, but not sure it will be in 2012.

Last time I went elk hunting I remember it costing some 600 some odd bucks for a permit plus a 20+ hour drive from here (because I'm not checking my Glock into the airlines). I can buy a lot of organic grass fed beef for that moolah, plus its no guarantee I'll take a bunch of meat home, plus that is a heck of a lot of animal to get to the ice chest (we always hope for good weather) by myself.

I know a place I can get to within 10-15 yards of an elk, if they happen to take that trail (its always hard to say where they will travel in the A/M).

Pro tip: it ain't above the timber. :wavey:




An 'ethical' kill is only based upon the individual hunter. It is a human emotion humans place on animals? Do you think nature has 'ethical' kills? What about bow hunters, are those 'ethical' kills? What about a bunch of wolves attacking an elk, is that 'ethical'? That elk suffers tremendously. Did our indian forefathers kill animals quick and painlessly with a crude arrowhead and long bow? YMMV

Now, getting to the OP's question; IMHO, yes, a 10mm will do just fine. I will say this, know your range and accuracy for your weapon; with this information, there is a higher probability you will recover the animal.


:wavey:

red

redbaron007
01-09-2012, 19:17
What are you Bill Clinton? We all know what "sexual" means and if you're a hunter, you know damned well what ethical means.

Get with the program.

:wavey:

Please edjucate me with the official definition. Been a hunter for a long time; never seen the definition.

What's Bill Clinton got to do with it? Sexual? :dunno:

:wavey:

red

SolidBrass
01-09-2012, 20:54
I think that it is unethical. An elk is a BIG animal and they are very hard to get close to.

Hard to get close to? No, not where I live. You could pet one. Later, when you emerge from your coma you could go back and kill it with a 10mm if you wanted. Still I, as a gentle killer, would use more power.

I will say some yahooz do come to town and try to hunt Buffalo with handguns. This is similar to stalking a couch sitting out in a field in challenge level IMO. It's not always a pretty site when they fail to kill after several shots (at least on a few occasions I've heard of).

**Please no buffalo hunting with handgun hate mail

XmmAUTO
01-09-2012, 22:32
10mm should be plenty, given opportunity for a good shot.
See Link below
http://youtu.be/pfmOzW1KEKA
Makes you think.

dsa1115
01-09-2012, 22:38
Elk are large animals. If you need to ask, you know the answer. If you want to harvest Elk with a handgun, get yourself a large wheelgun IMO.

Maine1
01-09-2012, 23:15
There are some people with whom i am aquanted that have told me of doing this very thing. From what i understnd it was a "hey, an elk over there" type of thing, and the G-20 was to hand and did the job with good placement.

How does an elk compare to a moose, weight wise?

stevenm2
01-09-2012, 23:35
A couple of years ago I shot an antelope "Pronghorn" for those of you who insist.
Clean shot through the vitals, 25-06 at pretty close to 300 yards. As I came up on the animal It was still clinging to life so I thought I would put it out of it's misery.He was already dead and did not know it and was trying to get up.

3 shots to the back of the neck (I did not want to chance hitting the horns) With a S&W.40 at about 6 ft. from a Glock 22 155 gr. bullets. factory stuff Hornady I think.
I realize I was not shooting a 10MM However I was shooting the the same Diameter bullets at a very close range. The animal seemed unaffected by these 3 rounds although I am certain he felt it more than I did. after a couple of minutes I shot him again at the base of the neck from less than a foot away and he expired.
I have killed several Elk myself and I will personally not be using a 10mm as my primary weapon for several reasons.
1. I don't think it is enough gun for a thick skinned 6-800 lb. animal beyond 50 yards. These are Hardy animals. shot placement with a rifle is critical for humane harvest. They can run for Miles and Miles from a bad hit.
2. I don't think I am willing to do the work to get ready for a hunt like that. I am not lazy it is just a lot of work and expense.
3. I get no advantage in Oregon hunting with a pistol as far as securing a tag
4. I have several options (better options for me) available to me.

I would consider huntin some hogs with mine.
If you do choose to hunt Elk with a 10mm Get Close and chose your shots wisely.
If you do everything right and do manage a clean harvest you will remember it for years.
Good Luck and Happy Hunting

Maine1
01-09-2012, 23:46
Placement is an issue. i have killed animals for slaughter and euthanasia with my 10mm. Dropped 1200# animals in their tracks.

In huntind, however, the ideal shot with a pistol could be tough to get. I see it as more of a chance thing, like old Keith used to do.

Foxtrotx1
01-09-2012, 23:55
This is ridiculous. I don't find it ethical at all to use a 10mm for Elk. Here in Arizona .300 Win Mag is the intro gun for Elk Season.

http://www.xdtalk.com/forums/hunting/153517-my-friend-told-me-he-wanted-go-elk-hunting-10mm-handgun-3.html

Ethereal Killer
01-10-2012, 09:50
a 10mm is NOT appropriate for elk.

I've seen elk survive a hit from a 30-378 weatherby mag, yet somehow we are to believe that a weenie auto pistol round is even a question?

no, just no.

in northern states, the 270 is considered the minimum entry rifle to elk hunting. and no one really does it with even magnum revolvers due to the distances involved.

dryfly
01-10-2012, 17:13
Whats the point anyway? To just say you did it or to just say it can be done...???
Doesnt soind like a smart thing to try and attempt to do to me...

Just my 2cents...

Kegs
01-10-2012, 17:40
7x7 bull elk. RZ-10 10mm - Added 2 weeks ago.
Added by Razor Dobbs
I killed this bull elk at 50 yards with the Dan Wesson RZ-10 10mm. The bullet passed through both shoulders and stopped just under the skin. Amazing power! -Razor





http://www.cz-usa.com/products/view/dan-wesson-rz-10/



(http://www.cz-usa.com/products/view/dan-wesson-rz-10/)

Kegs
01-10-2012, 17:46
Whats the point anyway? To just say you did it or to just say it can be done...???
Doesnt soind like a smart thing to try and attempt to do to me...

Just my 2cents...

My point would be meat harvested from a nice sweaty mountain hunt. I love climbing mountains, I love hunting and I love eating wholesome organic juicy elk meat.

Plus I bought my pistol to kill anything in the lower 48, which it most certainly can...and over time, will.

Foxtrotx1
01-10-2012, 17:57
My point would be meat harvested from a nice sweaty mountain hunt. I love climbing mountains, I love hunting and I love eating wholesome organic juicy elk meat.

Plus I bought my pistol to kill anything in the lower 48, which it most certainly can...and over time, will.

Why not use a rifle? It's only fair to the animal to make it as quick as you can.

Kegs
01-10-2012, 18:02
This is ridiculous. I don't find it ethical at all to use a 10mm for Elk. Here in Arizona .300 Win Mag is the intro gun for Elk Season.


Why don't you just admit you wouldn't go out of the house for chickadee hunting without a .800 nitro? :rofl:

Elk are tough animals.

They are not bullet proof.

There is no reason to buy a .300 win mag for elk unless you are up high and in wide open country and you expect to be making shots in excess of 300 yards...

...obviously not the right conditions for hunting with a pistol (unless its a T/C encore or equiv).

Kegs
01-10-2012, 18:08
Why not use a rifle? It's only fair to the animal to make it as quick as you can.

I don't own a rifle bigger than .22LR anymore.

I only bought that recently because I *reluctantly* really wanted to shoot a rifle again.

I absolutely don't need the .22LR, it is a fix for an embarrassing shooting addiction that I have.

I could kill an elk with that too, but its not legal. :wavey:

harley45
01-10-2012, 18:13
Razor made a post on his facebook page wherein he mentioned using Hornady Factory loads. If that load punched thru an ELK I wonder what our hotter handloads could do?

mtn_hunter
01-10-2012, 18:40
...

There is no reason to buy a .300 win mag for elk unless you are up high and in wide open country and you expect to be making shots in excess of 300 yards...


I think this is the only place you and I agree. Even at 300 yds a 300 win mag is NOT required. Too many people drink the large magnum kool aid and think that will make up for a lack of skill.

I don't own a rifle bigger than .22LR anymore.

I only bought that recently because I *reluctantly* really wanted to shoot a rifle again.

I absolutely don't need the .22LR, it is a fix for an embarrassing shooting addiction that I have.

I could kill an elk with that too, but its not legal. :wavey:

Yes, that is illegal just like hunting elk with a barrel shorter than 4" (in Colorado) which you seem to be promoting.

Burien
01-10-2012, 19:21
I was out looking for elk antlers on the ground one day when I looked up and seen a dozen or more huge bull and cow elk walking around... all I had was a .357 mag and was very humbled, they were less than 50 yards away. I would never hike again without my 10mm. These things are HUGE!

TDC20
01-10-2012, 19:25
Is 10mm ethical for hunting an Elk? I know a guy here in Utah that went hunting with his G20, I know he has some max loads worked up. What are the thoughts from the 10 ringers on hunting elk with a G20?

Sorry I didn't want to hijack the other hunting thread.

Since you are asking for opinions, I will share mine. Just because you can do something doesn't mean you should. Also, for a person with the skill who knows the limitations to do this, it isn't unethical, but for a person without the skills or unwilling to stop where his limitations require, I would say unethical.

In my state, you can hunt deer legally with any centerfire rifle or pistol cartridge. That means you could legally take a deer with a .25 auto pocket pistol. And given enough tries, and enough wounded and lost deer, a person just might be able to do it. But that doesn't make it ethical.

I honestly believe that, if it were legal, I have the skills to make a head shot with my .22LR out to 50 yards and cleanly kill a deer or an elk. But since I have a couple of high power rifles, I personally couldn't justify doing that.

I have seen hunts go bad over the years, even had a few myself when I did everything right, so there's no guarantees when you pull the trigger. My hunting philosophy has progressed over the years as I have learned, and I believe that I do things better now, for better reasons, than I did way back when.

Ethics is a personal matter of personal responsibility...what one man considers ethical another may not. That's why restrictions are placed on barrel lengths and minimum calibers, etc. It's an attempt by the states to steer hunters in the right direction (ethical hunting) without necessarily dictating a "one size fits all" requirement. It's still up to the individual in most states to determine a hunting method that they are comfortable with considering their own skills.

Just because you can, doesn't mean you should.

bac1023
01-10-2012, 19:50
I think 10mm is a bit weak for such a large animal.

527varmint
01-10-2012, 20:17
IF you just go elk hunting all the time and get shots at them every year then yeah why not give it a try? If you are spending 1,000 on tags and travel etc for the hunt of a lifetime then I would want something that is more then marginal and could offer you more range.

I think it is more a matter of your shooting ability rather then the round. I know I couldn't shoot a pie plate every single time past 25 yards but a real pistolero can hit them out to 100. Additionaly, not every G-20 is accurate enough to shoot very far even if you can. my lone wolf 40 sw barrel can group 1/2 the size of the stock 10mm barrel. An aftermarket barrel could help improve accuracy and extend you effective range and you can run hotter loads.

XmmAUTO
01-10-2012, 21:29
Originally posted by mtn_hunter:

Yes, that is illegal just like hunting elk with a barrel shorter than 4" (in Colorado) which you seem to be promoting.

mtn_hunter

Your making assumptions about Kegs that simply aren't true.
Kegs has in past threads stated that he uses a 4.75 inch aftermarket barrel to reach the minimum energy requirement and to comply with state law on barrel length. At least have the common courtesy to ask how one will comply with state law rather than assume that one will be breaking it.


Xmm

SolidBrass
01-10-2012, 21:37
Dig the 6" lone wolf look + Underwood power.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vibh4EmwP9E

Turn that 10 up to 11! Still I would go rifle. But to each his own. Tap rack and fire!

Foxtrotx1
01-10-2012, 21:45
I don't own a rifle bigger than .22LR anymore.

I only bought that recently because I *reluctantly* really wanted to shoot a rifle again.

I absolutely don't need the .22LR, it is a fix for an embarrassing shooting addiction that I have.

I could kill an elk with that too, but its not legal. :wavey:

It's not the elks fault you don't own the right gun for the job. Don't make him suffer because of it. Please video tape it when he tramples you.

10mmman
01-11-2012, 13:15
Is it ethical to hunt elk with a compound bow generating 65 to 70 foot pounds of energy?

dryfly
01-11-2012, 15:08
Is it ethical to hunt elk with a compound bow generating 65 to 70 foot pounds of energy?

:brickwall: Myself... I wouldnt hesitate doing a bow-hunt for elk. I would never consider a 10mm handgun though.

Foxtrotx1
01-11-2012, 18:05
Is it ethical to hunt elk with a compound bow generating 65 to 70 foot pounds of energy?

Because Energy is the end all to lethality. :upeyes: But no, I wouldn't do it with a bow either.

Kegs
01-11-2012, 18:16
Yes, that is illegal just like hunting elk with a barrel shorter than 4" (in Colorado) which you seem to be promoting.

No sir.

My G29 has a KKM barrel on it that is 4.45"

Kegs
01-11-2012, 18:27
Is it ethical to hunt elk with a compound bow generating 65 to 70 foot pounds of energy?

There are a LOT of folks in the Rockies that won't hunt any other way.

There was a time I was a very good shot with a bow (I still like to shoot, but don't own one since the last one got stolen), but I don't care for the way it kills and I wouldn't use one to kill an elk.

"Ethical shooting" means you don't take the shot if you are not absolutely certain (considerations within reason) that the shot you are able to make will be a kill shot. I opened the replies on this (reply #2) thread spelling that out pretty clearly.

I also replied to the XDtalk thread with a more thorough reply than I have on here.

Maybe I should cut and paste, but the reason I replied so thoroughly on there is because you guys (at least most of you) at least know this cartridge pretty well. Since Springfield XDs are not available in 10mm, most of those forum folks are lacking that info, so I explained that to them.

mtn_hunter
01-11-2012, 20:04
Originally posted by mtn_hunter:

Yes, that is illegal just like hunting elk with a barrel shorter than 4" (in Colorado) which you seem to be promoting.

mtn_hunter

Your making assumptions about Kegs that simply aren't true.
Kegs has in past threads stated that he uses a 4.75 inch aftermarket barrel to reach the minimum energy requirement and to comply with state law on barrel length. At least have the common courtesy to ask how one will comply with state law rather than assume that one will be breaking it.


Xmm

Sorry I didn't read all of his posts of this forum :upeyes: Not too much of an assumption either. Read my first post #8 where I first pointed out the barrel requirement in CO after Kegs partially quoted other parts of the regs. I even stated he should have an aftermarket barrel. No response.


No sir.

My G29 has a KKM barrel on it that is 4.45"

Sincerely glad to hear that.

alexanderg23
01-11-2012, 20:10
I've killed one with a 357, but not because I wanted to. It had been hit by a truck was messed up. It dropped like a sack of potatos.

Kegs
01-12-2012, 08:14
Razor made a post on his facebook page wherein he mentioned using Hornady Factory loads. If that load punched thru an ELK I wonder what our hotter handloads could do?

I loaded up a 200xtp to 1240ish fps and it punched through 6 water filled milk jugs and kept going. I wish I had put 7 up instead.

Of course this doesn't tell us anything about what it can punch through animal wise, since I did the same thing with my 1700 fps 135 nosler load and it only could punch through 2 milk jugs, yet it was a through and through on a decent sized doe - but the shot was placed properly.

Look, if you put a 5/8 hole (assuming expansion) just lower than and just behind the shoulder of any animal, piercing its lungs and heart, it will not have a chance to run more than 100y or so before it expires - and more than likely, it won't go 25. There is no animal in the lower 48 that has a hide that can resist that kind of force.

Razor said his round penetrated the shoulder of an elk and kept going until it was just on the inside of the other side of the elk's hide. Just behind the shoulder, there isn't anything but rib bones in there, and they won't stop the bullet - the bullet will expand, dumping maximum energy while in there, disrupting tissue and doing fairly major shock to the animal, then exiting the other side, causing 2 holes, making an easy to follow blood trail that will indeed be a short trail.


What matters for the kill is bullet placement - assuming you have a bullet big enough and fast enough to resist the rib bones (IF it hits any) and juicy bits and dump enough energy in there to disrupt tissue to make the important organs fail.

Taterhead
01-12-2012, 11:37
I loaded up a 200xtp to 1240ish fps and it punched through 6 water filled milk jugs and kept going. I wish I had put 7 up instead.

Of course this doesn't tell us anything about what it can punch through animal wise, since I did the same thing with my 1700 fps 135 nosler load and it only could punch through 2 milk jugs, yet it was a through and through on a decent sized doe - but the shot was placed properly.

Look, if you put a 5/8 hole (assuming expansion) just lower than and just behind the shoulder of any animal, piercing its lungs and heart, it will not have a chance to run more than 100y or so before it expires - and more than likely, it won't go 25. There is no animal in the lower 48 that has a hide that can resist that kind of force.

Razor said his round penetrated the shoulder of an elk and kept going until it was just on the inside of the other side of the elk's hide. Just behind the shoulder, there isn't anything but rib bones in there, and they won't stop the bullet - the bullet will expand, dumping maximum energy while in there, disrupting tissue and doing fairly major shock to the animal, then exiting the other side, causing 2 holes, making an easy to follow blood trail that will indeed be a short trail.


What matters for the kill is bullet placement - assuming you have a bullet big enough and fast enough to resist the rib bones (IF it hits any) and juicy bits and dump enough energy in there to disrupt tissue to make the important organs fail.

I think you pretty well explained how things need to go in order to get that ethical shot. That is true regardless of cartridge. It is much easier in most instances to place a shot with a rifle, so for most people that would mean relegating the 10mm to finishing shot duty.

A lot of hunters that I know only shoot once per year to get a zero on their rifles before the hunt. Those guys should not hunt with a pistol. Just yesterday I was talking to such a once-a-year shooter that hunts elk with a big magnum. I encouraged him to shoot more frequently so that he could firt get good DOPE on his rifle/load and then 1) determine how to range, and then 2) compute a firing solution 3) make a scope or hold adjustment 4) take a clean shot.

His response was that when hunting the adrenaline would preclude him from going through the cadence so what is the use. He would be too excited and just want to send a shot. This was the guy who is known to have dumped two mags toward a deer and missed everything. He then traded in the magnum for a bigger magnum because the first wasnt acurate. THUD!

So I cannot disagree with your assessment that a well-placed hot 10mm load would usually act like you describe. Most shooters probably should not take that shot with a pistol in my opinion.

FWIW, I have shot a 200 grain WFNGC hardcast bullet through 7 gallon jugs and it kept going. It probably would have cleared eight. I want to re-test when I stockpile more jugs. Penetration with that bullet it not a problem.

redbaron007
01-12-2012, 13:04
"Ethical shooting" means you don't take the shot if you are not absolutely certain (considerations within reason) that the shot you are able to make will be a kill shot. I opened the replies on this (reply #2) thread spelling that out pretty clearly.




No offense......but I disagree. That may be your definition, which is fine; however, you back track in your definition. You use the words 'absolutely certain' then back off with the caveat 'considerations within reason'. There is no way to know the shot you are taking will be 'a kill shot'.

I'm not nitpicking, but illustrating how there is no definition of an 'Ethical Shooting' within the laws. In some states, shooting after dark is illegal; IMHO, those that break this law has committed this unethical shot.

:wavey:

red

cablecutter
01-12-2012, 13:45
I have seen hunters shoot 40 yards with a rifle at an elk and flanked him. It seemed like he was taking an ethical shot but he wounded the animal. It my be fair to say it wasnt ethical for him to shoot that far. Key is I think is to get out and practice and know your limits and don't go beyond them!


Outdoor Hub mobile, the outdoor information engine

Taterhead
01-12-2012, 14:51
…Key is I think is to get out and practice and know your limits and don't go beyond them!


Outdoor Hub mobile, the outdoor information engine

This.

Precisely.

2240
01-12-2012, 15:14
Got a cow in 2011 with my 10mm. 200 gr Nosler under 9.0 gr of 800-X for about 1200 fps. First shot at about 60 yds and she kind of hunched up. Two more shots and she was down for good. Recovered one bullet under the hide on the far side. 2 lung shots and one high in the body cavity. Most handguns are "under powered" compared to rifle rounds. But if you are a confident shot and can wait for good shot placements it will take an elk down.http://i1194.photobucket.com/albums/aa366/DEGOLDCUP/CowElk10mm.jpg

Taterhead
01-12-2012, 15:44
Got a cow in 2011 with my 10mm. 200 gr Nosler under 9.0 gr of 800-X for about 1200 fps. First shot at about 60 yds and she kind of hunched up. Two more shots and she was down for good. Recovered one bullet under the hide on the far side. 2 lung shots and one high in the body cavity. Most handguns are "under powered" compared to rifle rounds. But if you are a confident shot and can wait for good shot placements it will take an elk down.http://i1194.photobucket.com/albums/aa366/DEGOLDCUP/CowElk10mm.jpg

Good hunting report. I love to eat elk.

You might consider copying this over on the stickied 10mm hunting thread for the sake of posterity.

EDIT: How did that Nosler do? Mushroom? Retained mass? Would you select that bullet again?

2240
01-12-2012, 19:12
Good hunting report. I love to eat elk.

You might consider copying this over on the stickied 10mm hunting thread for the sake of posterity.

EDIT: How did that Nosler do? Mushroom? Retained mass? Would you select that bullet again?
Perfect mushroom and did not have jacket separation. I think with a bull tag I would go with a 200gr cast. I need to get a moose with the 10mm one day and no doubt I would go cast bullet. BTW, 99.5% of the handgunning that I do, I do it with cast bullets that I cast myself so I have nothing against cast bullets.

FARTHAMMER
01-12-2012, 19:53
My vote is for yes. But only if you have the marksmanship to do it cleanly. For where I hunt(Eastern Washington) I don't think I've ever got close enough for a pistol. Now my .300 WinMag had no trouble last year at 250 yds

Jitterbug
01-13-2012, 08:22
There is no way to know the shot you are taking will be 'a kill shot'.



With 50 years hunting experience I have to disagree Red.

If one knows their equipment and limitations then one simply doesn't squeeze off a round unless they know for sure it's a kill shot, it's really the only ethical way to hunt. It's really not that hard to do, but it does require some effort and discipline

I realize many don't hunt this way, like the guy who doesn't touch his rifle but for 2 weeks out of the year, which is just one reason I gave up big game hunting many years ago.

But, if it ain't a kill shot, don't pull the trigger. Simple.

redbaron007
01-13-2012, 10:45
With 50 years hunting experience I have to disagree Red.

If one knows their equipment and limitations then one simply doesn't squeeze off a round unless they know for sure it's a kill shot, it's really the only ethical way to hunt. It's really not that hard to do, but it does require some effort and discipline

I realize many don't hunt this way, like the guy who doesn't touch his rifle but for 2 weeks out of the year, which is just one reason I gave up big game hunting many years ago.

But, if it ain't a kill shot, don't pull the trigger. Simple.

In theory, you are right.

If ever shot you've taken had been the kill shot; you are the only person I have ever met that has done this. I've been hunting for over 35 years with many folks and groups; I can say that every shot I've taken has not ended up being a kill shot. Do you bow hunt? If so, has every bow shot been a kill shot? If so, you are the greatest! Have you bird hunted? Every shot been a kill shot?


:wavey:

red

SolidBrass
01-13-2012, 12:31
These also kill Elk very well...

http://www.jhnewsandguide.com/images/news/8128.jpg

A wolf strides across a pasture near Indian Trails subdivision Sunday as another wanders in the background. Photo courtesy Tim McClure. (Jackson, WY) When three wolves were spotted near homes this week.

http://www.jhnewsandguide.com/article.php?art_id=8128

dryfly
01-13-2012, 14:07
Someday some year soon I will do either an Elk hunt or a high country Muley hunt...with the bow....thats what I tell myself every year anyways....My 10 will be by my side but ratehr take it with the bow...

Jitterbug
01-13-2012, 18:12
Yes, in theory and the ideal we should shoot for Red.

It's the less then good shots that have motivated me to be a better hunter/shooter.

Making the perfect shot should be the goal and is the ideal, a hunter needs to know his limitations with any platform/caliber, but more so with a handgun and even more so with a 10mm pistol and be willing to let the shot pass if it's not perfect.

As others have pointed out here many attempt to make up for skill and discipline with a bigger hammer, which isn't always a good solution.

But to answer the OP question, 10mm for Elk is pushing it in my book, a small yearling or 2 year old at close range is one thing, a big 6x6 Bull is another.

CanyonMan
01-13-2012, 18:27
Yes, in theory and the ideal we should shoot for Red.

It's the less then good shots that have motivated me to be a better hunter/shooter.

Making the perfect shot should be the goal and is the ideal, a hunter needs to know his limitations with any platform/caliber, but more so with a handgun and even more so with a 10mm pistol and be willing to let the shot pass if it's not perfect.

As others have pointed out here many attempt to make up for skill and discipline with a bigger hammer, which isn't always a good solution.

But to answer the OP question, 10mm for Elk is pushing it in my book, a small yearling or 2 year old at close range is one thing, a big 6x6 Bull is another.



+1



Stay safe my friend... ;)







CM

cablecutter
01-16-2012, 14:46
thread answered with this...

GLOCK Hunting - Big Game with a GLOCK. - Keith Warren - YouTube

Taterhead
01-16-2012, 15:21
I would love know that ammo used. Thanks for posting that cablecutter.

davsco
01-16-2012, 15:47
pretty sure a lowly .22 has killed most every animal (and certainly people) at some point in time.

BUT, the rule of thumb i have heard for elk is 2000 ft-lbs of energy at the animal. So if it's a 100 yd shot, your cartridge should have 2000 ft-lbs at 100 yds.

10mm (while an awesome handgun cartridge) only has something like 400 ft-lbs of energy at the muzzle, so it is nowhere near the recommend energy for elk. for purposes of comparison, a .30-06 has roughly 2000 ft-lbs of energy out to 200 yards.

we owe it to the animals we hunt to harvest them as humanely as absolutely possible.

Taterhead
01-16-2012, 15:59
pretty sure a lowly .22 has killed most every animal (and certainly people) at some point in time.

BUT, the rule of thumb i have heard for elk is 2000 ft-lbs of energy at the animal. So if it's a 100 yd shot, your cartridge should have 2000 ft-lbs at 100 yds.

10mm (while an awesome handgun cartridge) only has something like 400 ft-lbs of energy at the muzzle, so it is nowhere near the recommend energy for elk. for purposes of comparison, a .30-06 has roughly 2000 ft-lbs of energy out to 200 yards.

we owe it to the animals we hunt to harvest them as humanely as absolutely possible.

While I wouldn't try to talk you into hunting with a 10mm if you chose not to, your energy claims are a tad off. The energy you described is for a .40 S&W and would represent a 180 grain projectile at 1000 fps. 1300+ fps is available off-the-shelf from factory 10mm ammo.

A 10mm can have double or more than 400 lb/ft of energy at the muzzle. I have personally measured loads at 865 lb/ft of energy from my bone stock G20 using published load data.

A 200 gr hunting projectile at 1250 fps has close to 700 ft/lb of energy. That is readily attainable in a G20. Obviously if your personal benchmark is 2000 lb/ft, then it is still way less.

Kegs
01-16-2012, 16:08
thread answered with this...

GLOCK Hunting - Big Game with a GLOCK. - Keith Warren - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yr2IG6t85Jg)


Exactly.

Foxtrotx1
01-16-2012, 16:12
thread answered with this...

GLOCK Hunting - Big Game with a GLOCK. - Keith Warren - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yr2IG6t85Jg)

Wrong animal.

Kegs
01-16-2012, 16:16
10mm (while an awesome handgun cartridge) only has something like 400 ft-lbs of energy at the muzzle, so it is nowhere near the recommend energy for elk.

Hmmm....you must be an expert.:rofl:

Kegs
01-16-2012, 16:26
Wrong animal.

Hard to tell what he's shooting at through the brush, its either a red deer or an elk. Either way, the pistol worked and once again I say it's already been done - and more than once. There is a lot of good tips in that video for elk hunting with a pistol, though most times I've been, its been colder than that.

Here was a day it wasn't so cold ~10k' asl - me about 15 years ago or so...

http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h235/Radsport2er/n1007507059_30295760_5213919.jpg


This one not killed by a 10mm, next one will be though.

Taterhead
01-16-2012, 16:37
Hard to tell what he's shooting at through the brush, its either a red deer or an elk. Either way, the pistol worked and once again I say it's already been done - and more than once. There is a lot of good tips in that video for elk hunting with a pistol, though most times I've been, its been colder than that.

Here was a day it wasn't so cold ~10k' asl - me about 15 years ago or so...




This one not killed by a 10mm, next one will be though.

That is exactly what I was thinking. It looks like a bull elk to me, and they did utter the word, "bull" so I am thinking elk. The second animal was obviously a deer.

Beautiful country in the elk photo. Where was that?

davsco
01-16-2012, 16:38
i got the ~400 ft-lbs right off the federal website for 10mm. even if it is somehow 2x that, still not the best cartridge for the job.

dryfly
01-16-2012, 18:14
Nice pict Kegs....