Defensive bullet pushback [Archive] - Glock Talk

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thewoo1
01-09-2012, 19:02
Would JHP rounds in this case 124 gr +P 9mm be subject to bullet pushback? I ask because I unload my g19 when I leave work

Fragman
01-09-2012, 19:04
Oh man, now you've done it.....

:)

mj9mm
01-09-2012, 19:06
do you work at home ?:rofl:

fredj338
01-09-2012, 22:02
All semiauto rounds are subject to "Set back". It depends on the caliber & the individual gun. SOme offer more than others. Yes you should always inspect your rounds when you unchamber & prior to rechambering. Rounds shorter than 1/16" from factory should be removed to a practice box (if you feel brave) or broken down for components or tossed. With some calibers the pressure increase is significant.

NG VI
01-09-2012, 23:01
Why subject your defense gun to multiple unnecessary chamberings? Why not just leave it on and in a proper holster?

Tiro Fijo
01-09-2012, 23:11
do you work at home ?:rofl:




:animlol:

PlasticGuy
01-10-2012, 10:00
All semi-auto handgun cartridges are subject to set back. Some sooner than others, but none are exempt. Keep it loaded and in a good holster, and don't mess with it.

fredj338
01-10-2012, 10:33
You guys do know storing guns in leather holsters is NOT good for the finish??

PlasticGuy
01-10-2012, 13:27
You guys do know storing guns in leather holsters is NOT good for the finish??
You do know that not all holsters are leather?

ghr1142
01-10-2012, 14:47
All semiauto rounds are subject to "Set back". It depends on the caliber & the individual gun. SOme offer more than others. Yes you should always inspect your rounds when you unchamber & prior to rechambering. Rounds shorter than 1/16" from factory should be removed to a practice box (if you feel brave) or broken down for components or tossed. With some calibers the pressure increase is significant.

I'm thinking about "set back" How can I measure this ?? Is it that you have to inspect new ammo out of the box ?
GT-17-19-26-27-33

fredj338
01-10-2012, 15:22
I'm thinking about "set back" How can I measure this ?? Is it that you have to inspect new ammo out of the box ?
GT-17-19-26-27-33
Correct, compare it to factory new, you can see 1/16" w/o having to actually measure it. I have seen bad factory ammo, so I inspect every round that goes into my gun for SD/HD.
You do know that not all holsters are leather?
And that should be qualified, not a blanket statement.

Glock19Fan
01-10-2012, 15:32
If for whatever reason you choose not to keep the firearm loaded, I would suggest loading the weapon by locking the slide to the rear, inserting a round into the chamber, close the slide, then insert the magazine. That way you dont have to worry about the bullet eating the feed ramp every time you close the slide on a full mag.

NG VI
01-10-2012, 15:35
Yeah, but it will wreck your extractor soon enough unless you are using one of the few weapons designed to work that way.

Glocks are not one of them.

Glock19Fan
01-10-2012, 15:49
Yeah, but it will wreck your extractor soon enough unless you are using one of the few weapons designed to work that way.

Glocks are not one of them.

I honestly dont see how this would put more wear on the extractor compared to normal firing.

fredj338
01-10-2012, 16:11
I honestly dont see how this would put more wear on the extractor compared to normal firing.
Snapping the extractor over the round vs having it feed into the extractor. Some guns, this eventually breaks or chips the extractor. Semiautos are designed to feed from the mag & full speed, that is how they should also be loaded.

dsa1115
01-10-2012, 16:36
I'm thinking about "set back" How can I measure this ?? Is it that you have to inspect new ammo out of the box ?

Answer....If you want to measure the OAL, buy some calipers. You'd be surprised by the OAL variations I find on NIB factory ammunition.

Tiro Fijo
01-10-2012, 17:35
I honestly dont see how this would put more wear on the extractor compared to normal firing.

Snapping the extractor over the round vs having it feed into the extractor. Some guns, this eventually breaks or chips the extractor. Semiautos are designed to feed from the mag & full speed, that is how they should also be loaded.


Fred's right. It is not smart to do this as soon the extractor will be ruined and more importantly the gun won't function. Maybe when you need it most.

chemcmndr
01-10-2012, 17:45
To the OP; several years ago, I wondered this very thing. I did an "experiment" where I took 10 124 +P GDHP's and measured the OAL with a caliper. I then proceeded to chamber all of them and eject them from my Glock 26. I figured with the higher spring tension in that gun, if there was any chance of bullet setback, it would be from that. I measured the OAL after unchambering, and repeated the process 9 more times for each bullet. In the end, I found that the cartridges were longer than when they started. It seems that the sudden stopping in the chamber would actually start pulling the bullet out instead of setting it back.

Granted, bullet setback is a possibility, and I have seen it from cartridges getting caught on the feed ramp of a firearm, I didn't see it in the experiment I performed. If you're really worried, when you load your gun, don't let the slide snap home, but instead "ride" it in order to gently chamber the round and just make sure the gun is fully locked into battery before you holster.

Tiro Fijo
01-10-2012, 18:20
...If you're really worried, when you load your gun, don't let the slide snap home, but instead "ride" it in order to gently chamber the round and just make sure the gun is fully locked into battery before you holster.


Not a smart move. ALWAYS chamber with authority. I use the slide stop however many "slingshot" as well. NEVER ride the ctg. home slowly. NEVER.

fredj338
01-10-2012, 18:51
Not a smart move. ALWAYS chamber with authority. I use the slide stop however many "slingshot" as well. NEVER ride the ctg. home slowly. NEVER.

I teach that as well. Riding the slide is going to eventually cause a malfunction, especially if it becomes a habit ingrained in your muscle memory. Same w/ inserting mags, don't baby the gun, it will eventually fail you. Full speed, that is how the gun is designed to run. Just inspect your ammo after each unload & make sure the bullet hasn't moved more than 1/16" deeper or longer for that matter. Once the neck tension has been broken, that round is less reliable.

chemcmndr
01-10-2012, 19:53
How do you figure you'll cause a malfunction if you make sure the gun locks into battery?

Tiro Fijo
01-10-2012, 22:03
How do you figure you'll cause a malfunction if you make sure the gun locks into battery?


The gun may not always go into battery that way and obviously in a self defense scenario you won't get a 2nd chance to fire a first and all important shot. Also, by doing this you cause the first round to shoot out of pattern from the succeeding rounds. Usually it's under 4" or 5" at most out of group, but that may well be enough to not hit what you are aiming at in a self defense scenario with adrenaline flowing. If you use the slide stop or "slingshot" then you seat the cartridge in the chamber more like the succeeding shots and also you will know right away on the off chance that you have an ill fitting round.

Lube it, load it & forget it.

fredj338
01-11-2012, 00:23
How do you figure you'll cause a malfunction if you make sure the gun locks into battery?

Because you may not always make sure plus under stress, you will do what you have done 1000 times before. If that is hjow you load your pistol, you are likely to do it under stress. I see it all the time in just IDPA matches. Under stress you do what you always do & riding the slide while chambering a round is likely to cause a FTF. No serious instructor or even avid shooter would train that way, so don't practice that way either. As always, JMO.:dunno:

chemcmndr
01-11-2012, 21:40
The gun may not always go into battery that way and obviously in a self defense scenario you won't get a 2nd chance to fire a first and all important shot. Also, by doing this you cause the first round to shoot out of pattern from the succeeding rounds. Usually it's under 4" or 5" at most out of group, but that may well be enough to not hit what you are aiming at in a self defense scenario with adrenaline flowing. If you use the slide stop or "slingshot" then you seat the cartridge in the chamber more like the succeeding shots and also you will know right away on the off chance that you have an ill fitting round.

Lube it, load it & forget it.

Do you have any experience showing that it is "under 4"-5" out of group? I've never heard of this before and am curious to see someone who has gotten this far off of grouping because of riding the slide on the first round.

Because you may not always make sure plus under stress, you will do what you have done 1000 times before. If that is hjow you load your pistol, you are likely to do it under stress. I see it all the time in just IDPA matches. Under stress you do what you always do & riding the slide while chambering a round is likely to cause a FTF. No serious instructor or even avid shooter would train that way, so don't practice that way either. As always, JMO.:dunno:

I agree 100% that you fight as you train. I haven't noticed anyone at the competitions I go to do that, but then again I never really paid too close of attention. I know that whenever I'm shooting competitions, I always load with the overhand slingshot method and have never rode the slide home. I guess there's a possibility of doing it, but I've just never seen/experienced it.

Tiro Fijo
01-11-2012, 22:46
Do you have any experience showing that it is "under 4"-5" out of group? I've never heard of this before and am curious to see someone who has gotten this far off of grouping because of riding the slide on the first round...


Sure, & some guns do this even if you do not baby them. Gunwriters have written about it for decades. I've had it happen to me with SIGs & Kahrs even when using the slide stop for the first round. It's called the "four one" syndrome.

...It is not uncommon to see "4 1" syndrome. With an auto, the first hand-chambered shot may go to a different point-of-aim than subsequent rounds that are automatically cycled into the chamber by the firing mechanism, creating a subtly different battery, or alignment of the parts when the gun is ready to fire...

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0BTT/is_157_26/ai_84428744/

pisc1024
01-11-2012, 23:00
Sure, & some guns do this even if you do not baby them. Gunwriters have written about it for decades. I've had it happen to me with SIGs & Kahrs even when using the slide stop for the first round. It's called the "four one" syndrome.



http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0BTT/is_157_26/ai_84428744/

I'm just going to go out on a limb and say that may have something to do with the heavy first round trigger pull. I would doubt seriously your claim that the first round that you chamber will be off by as much as 5". Just my two cents...

fredj338
01-12-2012, 10:18
Do you have any experience showing that it is "under 4"-5" out of group? I've never heard of this before and am curious to see someone who has gotten this far off of grouping because of riding the slide on the first round.



I agree 100% that you fight as you train. I haven't noticed anyone at the competitions I go to do that, but then again I never really paid too close of attention. I know that whenever I'm shooting competitions, I always load with the overhand slingshot method and have never rode the slide home. I guess there's a possibility of doing it, but I've just never seen/experienced it.
If you are shooting enough comps, then that becomes your muscle memory & occasionally riding the slide home isn't going to be as worrisome, but again, why, the gun is designed to run a certain way. If you rechamber every day, check your rounds often. You can get by doing it several other ways, but they all have a negative.
Also, by doing this you cause the first round to shoot out of pattern from the succeeding rounds. Usually it's under 4" or 5" at most out of group,
I have never seen this happen & don't think it makes more than a 1" diff in ones group. I have heard others describe such an event shooting Glocks in particular, but I call BS, never seen it happen even one time. Sure, first shots may be thrown maybe 1" off @ 25yds, maybe, more like 1/4" from a good hand held rest, or Ransom Rest.

Tiro Fijo
01-12-2012, 14:45
...I have never seen this happen & don't think it makes more than a 1" diff in ones group. I have heard others describe such an event shooting Glocks in particular, but I call BS, never seen it happen even one time. Sure, first shots may be thrown maybe 1" off @ 25yds, maybe, more like 1/4" from a good hand held rest, or Ransom Rest.


I had a SIG 226 and a Kahr K9 back in the 90's that both threw the first shot out of group a measured TWO & THREE inches respectively at 7 yds. The Kahr had other trigger issues (reset) as well & went back to the factory two times before I sold it. I had a buddy that had a SIG that did it about 4". He, like myself, got rid of the gun as the only cure is a new barrel. It does happen. I've seen it, owned it & shot it.

pisc1024, Kahrs are DAO. The trigger pull is the same every shot.

pisc1024
01-13-2012, 15:34
I had a SIG 226 and a Kahr K9 back in the 90's that both threw the first shot out of group a measured TWO & THREE inches respectively at 7 yds. The Kahr had other trigger issues (reset) as well & went back to the factory two times before I sold it. I had a buddy that had a SIG that did it about 4". He, like myself, got rid of the gun as the only cure is a new barrel. It does happen. I've seen it, owned it & shot it.

pisc1024, Kahrs are DAO. The trigger pull is the same every shot.

I'm tracking that, I was just suggesting it as a real possibility for the Sig. Kahrs are not known for their accuracy, at least in my experience, so I personally would be doing well just to put them in a 5" group regardless of any perceived first round issues. I'm sure you could do much better with the Kahr than I ever could though.