Why do Sons Of Guns think they can make a more reliable piston AR? [Archive] - Glock Talk

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Javelin
01-12-2012, 14:53
HK can't do it, SIG, LWRC, so why on earth would a hillbilly outfit of missfits think they can honestly hand some kid that has no experience on the AR platform a project to recreate and make the gun more reliable than an AK... or a direct impingement AR for that matter.

Stupid. I am done watching that show.

JHorner_G17C
01-12-2012, 14:59
Agreed! Watching that crap just makes my blood boil!

faawrenchbndr
01-12-2012, 15:01
It's a "realality show",....what do you expect?! :dunno:

CrookCounty
01-12-2012, 15:08
To get people interested in seeing if they can actually do it, which will make them watch the shows, boost their ratings, get them a new contract and allow these morons be on TV for longer....TURN THE CHANNEL!

gommer
01-12-2012, 15:12
HK can't do it, SIG, LWRC, so why on earth would a hillbilly outfit of missfits think they can honestly hand some kid that has no experience on the AR platform a project to recreate and make the gun more reliable than an AK... or a direct impingement AR for that matter.

Stupid. I am done watching that show.

Well, I certainly agree the show sucks. It makes me want to pull my eyes from their sockets and chew on them. Truly.

However, I never fault anyone for giving an honest effort. Truthfully, our educational system is great at teaching our children all of the things they can not do.

The thing is, sometimes that idiot that didn't know they couldn't do something is just the idiot that gets it done.

Maybe that's why God made so many stupid people - so there'd still be people trying to do what everyone else already told them can't be done.

:dunno:

bmoore
01-12-2012, 15:12
That show is horrible. I turn the channel.

ronin.45
01-12-2012, 15:12
It's funny that they are going to "revolutionize" the AR by dropping in a piston conversion kit. Especially when they can't even get it running before they take it to the desert!:rofl:

illrooster132
01-12-2012, 15:15
that show and the kardashian stuff is way over due for cancellation . makes me puke!

t1tan
01-12-2012, 15:18
Because theyre idiots...

I walked into the day room of my fire station one night where the guys were watching it telling me I'd love it being a "gun guy". I walked out a minute later and checked the rigs over until it was over.

Cambo
01-12-2012, 15:39
The only reason to watch it is to be amazed at how poorly a business can be run and to tear it apart with commentary. I am still in awe that they could lose 10 machine guns(I am sure that will never be mentioned although it would be good for ratings!!).

esh325
01-12-2012, 15:40
HK can't do it, SIG, LWRC, so why on earth would a hillbilly outfit of missfits think they can honestly hand some kid that has no experience on the AR platform a project to recreate and make the gun more reliable than an AK... or a direct impingement AR for that matter.

Stupid. I am done watching that show.
Who says H&K can't do it? Can't comment on Sig and LWRC. I haven't heard of issues with the HK416. Many countries wouldn't be buying them if that were the case. The HK416 is probably the most proven piston AR there is at the moment. As far as Redjacket making a good piston AR, I think you're right that they probably lack the expertise. They are just gunsmiths, not gun designers.

Javelin
01-12-2012, 15:43
Who says H&K can't do it? Can't comment on Sig and LWRC. I haven't heard of issues with the HK416. Many countries wouldn't be buying them if that were the case. The HK416 is probably the most proven piston AR there is at the moment. As far as Redjacket making a good piston AR, I think you're right that they probably lack the expertise. They are just gunsmiths, not gun designers.

I don't know why HK can't do it. I don't work for HK. But I do know this:

The Tactical Wire has learned from very reliable sources that the US military has encountered significant problems with H&K Model 416s in combat conditions. HK has suspended production pending an internal investigation and inspection of that weapon system.

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2009/04/03/hk416-production-suspended/

Rexzilla
01-12-2012, 15:45
Change the channel...not worth the time watching it. I am an ole fart and I can't believe all the myths they want people to buy in to when buying guns or doing conversions. The show reminds me of the times I have walked in to a gun shop when there is a "mall ninja" selling guns loaded down with all sorts of ordinance just waiting for a zombie attack....I walk out of those places.
I want to talk to old gunsmiths to learn...what breaks and really does need to be replaced...not mod something up so it is unusable.

...just my two bits...

esh325
01-12-2012, 15:45
I don't know why HK can't do it. I don't work for HK. But I do know this:



http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2009/04/03/hk416-production-suspended/
That's just one incident.

Cletus
01-12-2012, 15:51
I don't mind watching the show because it is more entertaining than most shows on tv right now. But I agree it looks like they just put a bunch of magpul parts and other after market parts together and call it a new custom ar.

Javelin
01-12-2012, 15:51
That's just one incident.

Ok but the Army is not buying anymore of them. So one or 100 incidents - they don't have a US contract any longer.

Sons of Guns obviously is not getting a contract either.

:wavey:

TN.Frank
01-12-2012, 15:51
From what I've read and seen on shows like Tac TV, ect. there already are some very reliable pistol ARs on the market. Why Red Jacket would try to reinvent the wheel is a mystery to me. Also, with so many quality AR lowers on the market why in heck did they have to mill a new lower. Why not just buy an already make lower to do the build? Only reason I've started watching this stupid show again is because of the drama between Vince and Chris.

notjustanothermini
01-12-2012, 15:52
red jacket is pretty proffesional outfit, what you see on a 30min. tv show and what actually goes on is worlds apart.

these guys have years of satisfied customers, serious accounts and such.

they need to make building guns more TV friendly, so they add drama, kid trying to poke his daughter, yada yada yada.

but "imma take me this ar and put good aftermarket parts on it and call it out new weapons system" is stupid.

how bout "MOB WIVES"

Javelin
01-12-2012, 15:53
I don't mind watching the show because it is more entertaining than most shows on tv right now. But I agree it looks like they just put a bunch of magpul parts and other after market parts together and call it a new custom ar.

Yeah it looks like a Bushmaster retrofit drop in. But I didn't want to say anything

:rofl:

carloglock19
01-12-2012, 16:07
I'm sure all the drama is just to keep watchers coming back for more. I stopped watching it yesterday for good, the guy with all the tats and sandles just annoys the crap out of me so no more sons of guns for me!

banger
01-12-2012, 16:14
How?

The fact is that a small custom manufacturer can take the time to individually hand fit each component to make them work.

Large manufacturers are geared up to mass produce products, hopefully do a test fire and pass it up the supply chain.

Remember, the more hand fitting the higher the cost.

Javelin
01-12-2012, 16:16
I'm sure all the drama is just to keep watchers coming back for more. I stopped watching it yesterday for good, the guy with all the tats and sandles just annoys the crap out of me so no more sons of guns for me!

Yeah and the other kid spent half his day with a box of crayons drawing a picture of an AR "understand how it works"....

Classic.

Javelin
01-12-2012, 16:18
How?

The fact is that a small custom manufacturer can take the time to individually hand fit each component to make them work.

Large manufacturers are geared up to mass produce products, hopefully do a test fire and pass it up the supply chain.

Remember, the more hand fitting the higher the cost.

Yeah, but they were basically using a crappy after-market piston drop-in that you can get off of midway's catelog. The whole show is lame and in the absence of a few spread out explosions completely pointless.

Walk Soft
01-12-2012, 16:25
That was my thought as well.Also how could they determine that it would be uber reliable with one prototype and a few days.And why would you put that kid on it.
I agree this show is dumb but when it premiered I set my DVR to do the whole series recording and being it's about guns period,I can't, not watch it.

CharlestonG26
01-12-2012, 16:37
Because theyre idiots...

I walked into the day room of my fire station one night where the guys were watching it telling me I'd love it being a "gun guy". I walked out a minute later and checked the rigs over until it was over.

+1...I had the same experience with family members. They thought I'd really like the show. Watched one episode and think it is a farce.

TN.Frank
01-12-2012, 16:46
How?

The fact is that a small custom manufacturer can take the time to individually hand fit each component to make them work.

Large manufacturers are geared up to mass produce products, hopefully do a test fire and pass it up the supply chain.

Remember, the more hand fitting the higher the cost.

Funny thing is that I've built up 4 Model "1" Sales AR kits over the years and they all worked flawlessly without any hand fitting or anything. Just drop the parts into the lower, drop on the upper and they all ran like they were suppose to.

Javelin
01-12-2012, 16:48
Funny thing is that I've built up 4 Model "1" Sales AR kits over the years and they all worked flawlessly without any hand fitting or anything. Just drop the parts into the lower, drop on the upper and they all ran like they were suppose to.

But did you draw a picture of an AR before you put it together? :rofl:

Iceman cHucK
01-12-2012, 16:51
All Red Jacket should have done was give the customer a SCAR16 and be done with it! SBR it with a can if needed. Simple, proven, solution!:cool:

Javelin
01-12-2012, 16:51
In all faireness to the chubby tatoo dude that got his panties up his butt I probably would have been mad too if some gun dummy sat there and could not put together an AR and asked me to do it for him.

I mean how the hell can call yourself a gunsmith by profssion and not be able to put together a simple service rifle that has been around for almost 60 years?

TN.Frank
01-12-2012, 16:58
But did you draw a picture of an AR before you put it together? :rofl:

Didn't need to, the Marine Corp Armour's Manual that I had was full of pics.:cool:

liberty911
01-12-2012, 17:37
What kills me over all that's already been posted is when the kid started singing to Uncle Ted! I was embarrassed for him.

NeverMore1701
01-12-2012, 17:44
Why do Sons Of Guns think they can make a more reliable piston AR?

Because they're morons. They couldn't make a more reliable turd if you gave 'em a bowl of broccoli and some ex-lax.

BailRecoveryAgent
01-12-2012, 17:51
When they welded that slide racking thingamabob onto that Glock for the disabled guy, Stephanie said that Glock was the first gun to feature a polymer frame.:upeyes: If she has been around guns that long and doesn't know that HK had a polymer frame years before Glock did, then she obviously hasn't paid attention to much over the years.

TN.Frank
01-12-2012, 17:52
What kills me over all that's already been posted is when the kid started singing to Uncle Ted! I was embarrassed for him.

First song I learned to play on electric guitar was "Cat Scratch Fever" at age 14 and even then(not to brag) I sounded better then Chris did. Poor Uncle Ted, having to sit thru that. :crying:

TN.Frank
01-12-2012, 17:53
When they welded that slide racking thingamabob onto that Glock for the disabled guy, Stephanie said that Glock was the first gun to feature a polymer frame.:upeyes: If she has been around guns that long and doesn't know that HK had a polymer frame years before Glock did, then she obviously hasn't paid attention to much over the years.

Yep, VZ70 IIRC. Huge, 18 shot poly frame gun. Full Auto if you got the stock for it.

mdfd
01-12-2012, 17:54
the more I catch that show the more respect I loose for those guys...

Jason D
01-12-2012, 18:00
You mean you don't like their revolutionary and groundbreaking pieces of crap?

Sig Junkie
01-12-2012, 18:02
+1...I had the same experience with family members. They thought I'd really like the show. Watched one episode and think it is a farce.

Sons of Guns is a great show...



...for people that don't know any better

carloglock19
01-12-2012, 18:05
Yeah and the other kid spent half his day with a box of crayons drawing a picture of an AR "understand how it works"....

Classic.

:supergrin:

Lovin
01-12-2012, 18:06
In all faireness to the chubby tatoo dude that got his panties up his butt I probably would have been mad too if some gun dummy sat there and could not put together an AR and asked me to do it for him.

I mean how the hell can call yourself a gunsmith by profssion and not be able to put together a simple service rifle that has been around for almost 60 years?



Seriously. I know at least a dozen people that have successfully assembled fully functioning AR's using nothing more than manuals and youtube videos. And they're not "gun people". LOL

liberty911
01-12-2012, 18:13
First song I learned to play on electric guitar was "Cat Scratch Fever" at age 14 and even then(not to brag) I sounded better then Chris did. Poor Uncle Ted, having to sit thru that. :crying:

Seriously, he was horrible. Its nice to see Ted was so polite though. I've been playing for a long time and am general considered pretty good, ut I don't think I would have subjected one of my musical heroes to my crap music.

NeverMore1701
01-12-2012, 18:24
Seriously. I know at least a dozen people that have successfully assembled fully functioning AR's using nothing more than manuals and youtube videos. And they're not "gun people". LOL

I assembled my first stripped AR lower in my truck on my 30 minute lunch break. I had the lower, LPK, some electrical tape, and some medium vice grips. Had time left over to eat my burrito and get some iced tea a few blocks over. :supergrin:

Javelin
01-12-2012, 18:36
I assembled my first stripped AR lower in my truck on my 30 minute lunch break. I had the lower, LPK, some electrical tape, and some medium vice grips. Had time left over to eat my burrito and get some iced tea a few blocks over. :supergrin:

That lack of knowledge to assemble an AR really put the whole show in perspective. It makes me so thankful that I went with Tromix for my Saiga-12 build. I would be kicking myself had I bought a Red Jacket and then saw the show.

TTM65
01-12-2012, 21:05
There are several things that bug me, the first is that it is a reality show and there is no reality to it. I build guns from the ground up. I know the problems that are encountered but SOG never seems to have any problems and the gun is built an hour later.
Specialty guns take time, R&D, and more importantly, trial and error. They do not seem to have, or at least they do not show any of this.

In their defense, I know Will and he does not get to make decisions, the history channel does. That said, it is all scripted for them.

majette
01-12-2012, 21:06
Ok but the Army is not buying anymore of them. So one or 100 incidents - they don't have a US contract any longer.

Sons of Guns obviously is not getting a contract either.

:wavey:

good thing the seals and marines have not heard about this as they are buying and fielding the hk416/iar m27. but what do they know about weapons compared to the army?

TTM65
01-12-2012, 21:09
That lack of knowledge to assemble an AR really put the whole show in perspective. It makes me so thankful that I went with Tromix for my Saiga-12 build. I would be kicking myself had I bought a Red Jacket and then saw the show.

I recently did a pistol grip and folding stock conversion on one for a customer. Afterwards he asked for a full auto conversion. He is an 07/SOT so I did it. That is one abusive gun. I shot it with 3" magnum shells and boy did that hurt. 20 rounds and I was done. The customer hosts machine gun shoots, their next shoot will include full auto skeet shooting. They have a cool clay thrower that throws 5 clays at a time. Btw, sorry to jack the thread.

FLIPPER 348
01-12-2012, 21:27
Stupid. I am done watching that show.


Why do folks pay to watch crappy tv??

glock_collector
01-12-2012, 21:36
Sorry, No comment on steph or her teeth, last time I got scolded..

WarEagle32
01-12-2012, 22:11
In all faireness to the chubby tatoo dude that got his panties up his butt I probably would have been mad too if some gun dummy sat there and could not put together an AR and asked me to do it for him.

I mean how the hell can call yourself a gunsmith by profssion and not be able to put together a simple service rifle that has been around for almost 60 years?


I couldn't handle working there if I were Vince. Kris is a glowing MORON and that's just not editing. Also if that build was that crucial and Will put that idiot Kris on point basically because he is nailing his DA daughter. If I were Vince and didn't have busted credit, I would leave Red Jacket and do my own thing. The first season Will treated Vince terribly and Vince is by far the best Smith anywhere near that place.

Syclone538
01-12-2012, 22:12
Honest question, what's so hard about it? Whats wrong with the AR18 or 180 or whatever?

Roostmonkey
01-12-2012, 22:18
You don't just "lose" fully automatic rifles...

NeverMore1701
01-12-2012, 22:20
Honest question, what's so hard about it? Whats wrong with the AR18 or 180 or whatever?

I don't know what's wrong with a good AR15 :dunno:

raven11
01-12-2012, 22:24
Seriously. I know at least a dozen people that have successfully assembled fully functioning AR's using nothing more than manuals and youtube videos. And they're not "gun people". LOL

that was me , I built my first AR lower using nothing but youtube videos


and yes it works

Fred Hansen
01-12-2012, 22:37
Sons Of Guns = Too Stupid To Watch

:puking:

chrisf608
01-12-2012, 22:38
Its TV. If they made a show with out issues and drama most of the retards wouldnt watch it. If they want a reliable AR platform just leave it they way it is, sure a piston system with help after many rounds but security guys will probably never even fire a single shot. Besides training.

Until I run into a problem with my D.I. AR I will probably never spend the extra for a piston gun, mine had 5000 plus rounds through it. I dont clean it all too often either, it will fire every time with brass its when I start running steel stuff through it is when I get a hiccup once and a while.

stlguntrader
01-12-2012, 23:02
irrelevant but he seems to be pretty skinny actually he just has a fat face that resembles an English bulldog

In all faireness to the chubby tatoo dude that got his panties up his butt I probably would have been mad too if some gun dummy sat there and could not put together an AR and asked me to do it for him.

I mean how the hell can call yourself a gunsmith by profssion and not be able to put together a simple service rifle that has been around for almost 60 years?

smitty704
01-12-2012, 23:04
Those guys are a bunch of fools. They might know what they are doing some of the time, but they act like fools in the process.

raven11
01-12-2012, 23:10
Those guys are a bunch of fools. They might know what they are doing some of the time, but they act like fools in the process.

I feel sorry for Will, this may give him a lot of "one time" purchases but the longer this show goes on then it becomes the laughing stock of the AK community.

when a new guy comes here and ask "how are Red Jacket AK's" it would be a 20 page reply on how bad the show is.

Javelin
01-12-2012, 23:10
good thing the seals and marines have not heard about this as they are buying and fielding the hk416/iar m27. but what do they know about weapons compared to the army?

I don't know it's your question. :dunno:


But to answer your question the Marines are not replacing the M4 with the HK416 but the M249. So they are replacing an open-bolt runaway-prone gun with a lighter piston AR. Seems fair to me - it's not like the Marines have 36 Infantry Battalions to field (they ordered $23M which would be a drop in the bucket for any equipment change for the US Army).

Javelin
01-12-2012, 23:12
I feel sorry for Will, this may give him a lot of "one time" purchases but the longer this show goes on then it becomes the laughing stock of the AK community.

when a new guy comes here and ask "how are Red Jacket AK's" it would be a 20 page reply on how bad the show is.

Yeah I think they are officially the laughing stock of the Gun community. I wouldn't want to sit at their booth during a Gun Show... it'd be embarrassing.

:rofl:

Syclone538
01-13-2012, 00:56
I don't know what's wrong with a good AR15 :dunno:

A cooler and cleaner action should be an improvement.

EDCholsters
01-13-2012, 01:35
You don't just "lose" fully automatic rifles...
Let me guess, boating accident?

:rofl::wavey::tongueout:

NeverMore1701
01-13-2012, 02:10
A cooler and cleaner action should be an improvement.

Seem fine to me. :dunno:

Bradysmmrs
01-13-2012, 02:15
I find it interesting how much "authentic" drama is caused on the show. What gunsmith dosn't oil his gun before test firing? Let alone who wouldn't test fire a gun before showing it to a client? Red Jacket should be dissapointed in how they potray the industry.

Big Mad Dawg
01-13-2012, 02:44
I have only watch three episodes before I stopped for health concerns( I started throwing up at the mention of SOG or red jacket) but my impression are that Will is a ignorant angry buffoon his daughter probably lives in a trailer park and thinks burnt orange is a classy color and his crew are all autistic.

If you watch this show and enjoy it do yourself a favor and seek professional help today before you end up on the show.

ruffhunter
01-13-2012, 08:09
Disclaimer Maybe RUMOR, but I heard Will sold the place to one of those guys in the back, then he turned into a jerk and people walked out As well as Will being investigated over the missing guns. Aside from that. Its trailer trash, tired of the "next big thing" etc

Bren
01-13-2012, 08:19
HK can't do it, SIG, LWRC, so why on earth would a hillbilly outfit of missfits think they can honestly hand some kid that has no experience on the AR platform a project to recreate and make the gun more reliable than an AK... or a direct impingement AR for that matter.

Stupid. I am done watching that show.

I never really understood the mall ninjas' fascination with piston ARs. We went from a piston rifle to a direct gas rifle - it's not like they didn't know about gas-piston operation back then. I wonder if these people think that the residue just disappears because of the magic piston, rather than building iup in a place that is harder to keep clean?:upeyes:

Syclone538
01-13-2012, 10:10
Seem fine to me. :dunno:

Are you saying it's the perfect design and impossible to improve on?

GAFinch
01-13-2012, 10:13
I sincerely hope that these little-tested conversion kit AR's aren't actually being used to defend this country anywhere.

pat701
01-13-2012, 10:48
To sell their TV show. money

fnfalman
01-13-2012, 11:25
I never really understood the mall ninjas' fascination with piston ARs. We went from a piston rifle to a direct gas rifle - it's not like they didn't know about gas-piston operation back then.

We went from a 10-lbs piston action rifle to a 5.5-lbs gas impingement rifle.

I wonder if these people think that the residue just disappears because of the magic piston, rather than building iup in a place that is harder to keep clean?:upeyes:

They don't disappear. Most of them get vented out of the gun and not back into the guts of the gun.

relayman
01-13-2012, 11:29
Disclaimer Maybe RUMOR, but I heard Will sold the place to one of those guys in the back, etc Just a rumor
. But don't let that stop you .

Fred Hansen
01-13-2012, 11:53
I never really understood the mall ninjas' fascination with piston ARs. We went from a piston rifle to a direct gas rifle - it's not like they didn't know about gas-piston operation back then. I wonder if these people think that the residue just disappears because of the magic piston, rather than building iup in a place that is harder to keep clean?:upeyes:Some people just like a little rod. :dunno:

They repealed DADT, remember? :tongueout: :rofl:

TN.Frank
01-13-2012, 11:57
You don't just "lose" fully automatic rifles...

Wouldn't even have to be complete rifles. Once the lower(or whatever part has the SN# on it) has it's SN# applied to it the ATF considers it to be a "firearm" even though it's just a part with a number on it. They may have had 10 lowers go missing(stolen maybe) and that would be enough to get them into trouble.

GunHo198
01-13-2012, 13:19
My Marine Corps brother was in Afghanistan a year ago and had the option of carrying the HK416. As the armorer he said its a well built platform, but he hated the grenade launcher they had for it so he went back to the M4. He said not to bother with a gas piston kit unless you got money to burn. The standard gas system rifles are going to be in service for years to come. Take care of them and they will be fine.

I never had an issue with mine.

PlasticGuy
01-13-2012, 13:35
I never really understood the mall ninjas' fascination with piston ARs. We went from a piston rifle to a direct gas rifle...
Not all change is progress. There's a reason why no other mass produced rifle in recent history has used the same system. Also, many who did try it are switching back to piston rifles. The AR15/M16/M4 is clearly a success story, but it is not perfect. And your definition of "mall ninja" includes some pretty elite groups.

NeverMore1701
01-13-2012, 13:46
Are you saying it's the perfect design and impossible to improve on?

I'm saying they haven't managed to come up with something that's enough of an improvement to justify the cost.

And Red Jacket hasn't improved anything at all, AFAIK.

HoldHard
01-13-2012, 14:04
It's SHOW business.... worse yet it's REALITY SHOW BUSINESS!!!! Everything is scripted, even to the point of getting a fully restored, functioning artillery piece and monkeying around with it so they can "repair" and then fire it in front of the camera. Anyone remember the hydralic fluid leak?

In reply to the question posed by the OP:
DOE security contractors get the good stuff, anything they freaking want and the big names are all lining up wanting to sell to them. They don't need to go to some relative nickel and dime operation with a TV show to get good gear. And they get it at really favorable pricing.

Rumor Mode {ON}

Will Hayden lost his FFL when a certain number of NFA items went missing. Some say 10, some say 2. This could be a side plate containing the serial number to a full auto weapon and it never got used in a re-build or whatever. When you have spent the money to have that type of license, being careless with serial number NFA parts is not good for business. BATFE agents conducting audits do not have a sense of humor when it comes to missing NFA serial number parts, and they shouldn't....

The FFL that Red Jacket is operating under has Vince's name on it (actually Vincent Gordon Buckles as the registering agent and Joseph Whitney Meaux and Charles Riley Watson listed as additional officers) and Vince has left the show. He supposedly got his buy-out money and is in the process of setting up his own business.
i am rather tired of covering it up. I quit red jacket 3 months ago.... a company that I was a partial owner in and started my own company. I just got my buyout money the other day and back in november I formed my own company. If anyone wonder why i have been edgy lately its because i am tired of waiting for TV to tell the story.

Details at this link (http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_1_5/1267812_Red_Jacket_lost_ffl_.html). Beware, there are twenty pages....

This was supposed to be a FaceBook post by Vince to Steph's page:

you messed up. in october of 2011, Will and Stephanie Hayden were forced to surrender their FFL due to missing firearms. we formed the company Red Jacket Firearms LLC in may of 2010 and received our new FFL on Nov first 2010. The LLC and license is a matter of public record. Joe, Charlie and myself were the only controlling members of the LLC with Will and Stephanie federally prohibited fro having a firearms deal or manufacture license of any kind. I was an owner in RJF until september 15 of this year when I chose to leave because I just wanted to move on. a big eff you to the whole business besides flemming...hes cool

Then there is the lawsuit (http://www.courthousenews.com/2011/08/18/Bum.pdf) against Will.

CliffNotes version:

Red Jacket Inc sells some guy 10% of the business for repair work done on the business.
Red Jacket Inc tranfers all assets to new company, Red Jacket LLC.
Hayden tells 10% shareholder to f'k off, stock in Red Jacket Inc is worthless

If you need more details, go to the links.

Rumor Mode {OFF}

HH

WoodenPlank
01-13-2012, 14:06
Not all change is progress. There's a reason why no other mass produced rifle in recent history has used the same system. Also, many who did try it are switching back to piston rifles. The AR15/M16/M4 is clearly a success story, but it is not perfect. And your definition of "mall ninja" includes some pretty elite groups.

Those elite groups also have VERY different needs than your average mall ninja. Shooting 20k+ rounds a year, out of a short barrel and suppressor? Yep, you probably need a piston. Shooting 2,000 rounds a year or less, out of a 16" gun and no can? No point in going piston, unless you're too lazy to keep it lubed, or just wanna look cool.

Syclone538
01-13-2012, 15:25
I'm saying they haven't managed to come up with something that's enough of an improvement to justify the cost.

And Red Jacket hasn't improved anything at all, AFAIK.

That may very well be the case. I'll take your response to mean that you do think it could be improved on, so should everyone just stop trying to improve it because it's good enough as is, or because it would be expensive? I don't think so, I want to see people try new things, (or not so new, AR18) even if they don't meet expectations.

liberty911
01-13-2012, 15:29
That may very well be the case. I'll take your response to mean that you do think it could be improved on, so should everyone just stop trying to improve it because it's good enough as is, or because it would be expensive? I don't think so, I want to see people try new things, (or not so new, AR18) even if they don't meet expectations.

I completely agree with your point, but Red Jacket throws a bunch of aftermarket parts on stuff and calls it something new. Not very innovative.

PlasticGuy
01-13-2012, 17:02
I'm saying they haven't managed to come up with something that's enough of an improvement to justify the cost.

And Red Jacket hasn't improved anything at all, AFAIK.

Red Jacket is a joke, so let's leave their contributions out of this.

Whenever I see a comment like yours saying that some new designs may be better, but aren't better enough, I always wonder what it would take. Is a 10% increase in reliability enough? 20%? 50%? What is the magic number?

PlasticGuy
01-13-2012, 17:06
Those elite groups also have VERY different needs than your average mall ninja. Shooting 20k+ rounds a year, out of a short barrel and suppressor? Yep, you probably need a piston. Shooting 2,000 rounds a year or less, out of a 16" gun and no can? No point in going piston, unless you're too lazy to keep it lubed, or just wanna look cool.

Of course the intended use dictates the proper tool. My point was simply that the more elite the unit, the more likely they are to be using or at least evaluating piston operated rifles. That says something to me about which system is most likely to be dominant in the future, and for what reasons.

esh325
01-13-2012, 17:16
The Marine Corps bought a couple thousand M27 IAR's I believe (basically HK416's). It probably would have been easier and cheaper to retain DI guns for them. So they went with a piston gun for a reason. Doesn't mean DI or piston is better. They both have practical purposes I think.

Jmantattoo
01-13-2012, 17:19
Most often people that sit to watch that show do not know the difference between a quality gun and something they McGyver to look good either. If they do then they have no platform to ****** on.

Walk Soft
01-13-2012, 17:28
that was me , I built my first AR lower using nothing but youtube videos


and yes it works

I changed my entire front suspension by Youtube,my first .25 trigger job:crying::rofl::rofl:,sight install and other things.
Seeing is believing.

Walk Soft
01-13-2012, 17:31
Most often people that sit to watch that show do not know the difference between a quality gun and something they McGyver to look good either. If they do then they have no platform to ****** on.
I like calling BS.

lyodbraun
01-13-2012, 17:33
The show sucks plain and simple... don't even know why its still on the air.I hope this is the last season of their dumb show lol..

Outdoor Hub mobile, the outdoor information engine

dglowe343
01-13-2012, 19:12
The show sucks plain and simple... don't even know why its still on the air.I hope this is the last season of their dumb show lol..

Outdoor Hub mobile, the outdoor information engine

Same reason American Chopper and all the other GARBAGE reality shows manage to survive. Americans, smart or stupid, feed off of that form of "reality entertainment". Its played out and I wish our entertainment industry would move on already. /RANT ENDS/

WarEagle32
01-13-2012, 20:21
I said from the beginning that if I were Vince I would leave that place. The need him a hell of a lot more than he needs tham. I'm 3rd generation steel fabrication business that my father owns left to him by my grandfather. Will is one of the worst bosses I've ever seen. You cannot treat skilled labor the way that man does. It makes my fathers skin crawl watching the way he treats his employees. If the wheels are or have come off that place it's a long time coming.

liberty911
01-13-2012, 20:58
I said from the beginning that if I were Vince I would leave that place. The need him a hell of a lot more than he needs tham. I'm 3rd generation steel fabrication business that my father owns left to him by my grandfather. Will is one of the worst bosses I've ever seen. You cannot treat skilled labor the way that man does. It makes my fathers skin crawl watching the way he treats his employees. If the wheels are or have come off that place it's a long time coming.

Looks like it might have already!

http://www.texasguntalk.com/forums/off-topic-chat-sponsored-shiloh-shooting-range/29738-red-jacket-facts-sons-guns.html

I don't know if the info within the link is legitimate or not, but I wouldn't be surprised.

mrsurfboard
01-14-2012, 00:12
I thought American Chopper came on Monday nights?

Deaf Smith
01-14-2012, 08:07
HK can't do it, SIG, LWRC, so why on earth would a hillbilly outfit of missfits think they can honestly hand some kid that has no experience on the AR platform a project to recreate and make the gun more reliable than an AK... or a direct impingement AR for that matter.

Stupid. I am done watching that show.

There was a hillbilly who ran a gun shop and manufactured a few of their own firearms in Utah. There names were Browning. The lead guy, name John, became right adapt at inventing new gun ideas.

Never know where a good idea will come from. Who knows, tinkering around they might hit the right combination and make a better AR.

Deaf

NIB
01-14-2012, 11:44
What do you expect from a show that tells you they're firing a Desert Eagle .50 and they show the girl firing a Beretta 9mm instead. Majority of these reality shows are scripted to a point.

Javelin
01-14-2012, 15:21
There was a hillbilly who ran a gun shop and manufactured a few of their own firearms in Utah. There names were Browning. The lead guy, name John, became right adapt at inventing new gun ideas.

Never know where a good idea will come from. Who knows, tinkering around they might hit the right combination and make a better AR.

Deaf

Yeah I agree - there are some innovators out there. But these guys didn't. They aren't innovating but merely throwing some crap together without knowledge.

John Browning was an inventor, Will & his band of missfits are nothing more than a tragic made-for-tv tragedy.

Glockdude1
01-14-2012, 15:24
I thought American Chopper came on Monday nights?

:rofl:

thewoo1
01-14-2012, 16:42
I see Vince Buckles left and he was the guy that they used his ffl when it was suspended by the ATF. Real reason anyone know why he left. He used to tense up big time when Will chastized him .

tpaw
01-14-2012, 20:04
:popcorn: :rofl:

NEOH212
01-15-2012, 00:16
Sons of guns is only one step above Jerry Springer.


Hick's with guns would have been a more fitting name for the show.


It amazes me that people would even waste their time watching this crap.

This show reminds me of why I dumped cable and gave up on television years ago.

:shakehead:

Big.40
01-15-2012, 02:28
That show sucks, I'd rather watch Goldrush but that show sucks too!

WarEagle32
01-15-2012, 02:47
I said it in the middle of the 1st season that Will was a Horrible boss and that If I were the Skilled craftsmen that Vince is I would have left immediately. I had a few guys come on here slamming me saying how they knew the genius Will and I was a DA that didn't have a clue what I was talking about. Well it sure looks as if even back then I center shot the bullseye!! Had to inject that!

JuneyBooney
01-15-2012, 03:01
Who says H&K can't do it? Can't comment on Sig and LWRC. I haven't heard of issues with the HK416. Many countries wouldn't be buying them if that were the case. The HK416 is probably the most proven piston AR there is at the moment. As far as Redjacket making a good piston AR, I think you're right that they probably lack the expertise. They are just gunsmiths, not gun designers.


I agree. I have watched it a few times and it is not that bad. I hated the Top Shot show because it was stupid too. They might be able to do something cool. Just give them a chance. It is a tv show afterall.

Fred Hansen
01-15-2012, 08:44
There was a hillbilly who ran a gun shop and manufactured a few of their own firearms in Utah. There names were Browning. The lead guy, name John, became right adapt at inventing new gun ideas.

Never know where a good idea will come from. Who knows, tinkering around they might hit the right combination and make a better AR.

DeafJohn Moses Browning was a genius. The RJF clowns, not so much. Watching them fumble around is just pathetic and sad. They have as much chance of achieving something meaningful as does a troop of monkeys playing with a hand grenade.

homersapien
01-15-2012, 08:50
Shows like "Sons of Guns" and "American Guns" are most irritating in that they showcase really crappy gunsmiths. I don't want to watch hacks, I want to watch artists. But can you imagine a top shelf shop actually compromising the integrity of their work by allowing a camera crew to invade their shop? Hell no. Red Jacket doesn't have to worry about compromising integrity because...well...I think we all know the answer to that. Camera crews aren't a problem when you're pumping out pistol grip AKs and Brownell Catalog "custom" 1911s.

Same goes for "American Guns." How many of the smiths/shop you frequent pimp their underage daughter in order to get on TV? The people involved with that show are flat out despicable. It's embarrassing to be in the same city as those folks.

mrsig
01-15-2012, 09:06
The things they build and do are so far from reality to the average person that I lost interest after a few issues. Although not much more realistic I enjoy American Gun more.

GunHo198
01-15-2012, 16:19
It's just a TV show. If there's no content and drama there's no show. And in this economy there's not enough business to keep things like this going so I'm sure s lot of the BS you see is scripted. I'd be surprised if this security company in the desert even existed. But I see no reason of picking on these guys for having a gunshop and making any kind of money doing what they enjoy. If an idiot wants to pay rediculous money for something crazy then by all means sell them something. That's what your there for. Any sale is better than no sale.

As far as I no about FFL's. In order for employees to Traval with certain firearms, they have to be listed on the Corporation documents for the FFL to cover them. You can't own a Full auto and loan it to your sister to drive across state. If she gets pulled over without the paperwork she's going to jail. There's no mention of the guns being stolen so crappy book keeping possibly did them in. Being on TV probably didn't help.

As for picking on Steph about her teeth, it's a genetic defect. Would you guys pick on her if she were fat or in a wheelchair? Any woman that has an interest as much of mine in firearms I would be more than happy to date. There's a market out there for firearms for women. Sooner or later someone will capitalize on that and make good money with holsters for concealed carry for them. Heck. I even built my wife a Pink M4. It's what she wanted, it's what she got. And when she takes it out it's always the talk of the range.
http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b141/lvgood/FireArms/DSCN0009_003-1.jpg

I'll agree the show isn't fantastic, but it's intertainment. And there's not much on right now anyways....

NeverMore1701
01-15-2012, 16:32
It's just a TV show. If there's no content and drama there's no show. And in this economy there's not enough business to keep things like this going so I'm sure s lot of the BS you see is scripted. I'd be surprised if this security company in the desert even existed. But I see no reason of picking on these guys for having a gunshop and making any kind of money doing what they enjoy. If an idiot wants to pay rediculous money for something crazy then by all means sell them something. That's what your there for. Any sale is better than no sale.

As far as I no about FFL's. In order for employees to Traval with certain firearms, they have to be listed on the Corporation documents for the FFL to cover them. You can't own a Full auto and loan it to your sister to drive across state. If she gets pulled over without the paperwork she's going to jail. There's no mention of the guns being stolen so crappy book keeping possibly did them in. Being on TV probably didn't help.

As for picking on Steph about her teeth, it's a genetic defect. Would you guys pick on her if she were fat or in a wheelchair? Any woman that has an interest as much of mine in firearms I would be more than happy to date. There's a market out there for firearms for women. Sooner or later someone will capitalize on that and make good money with holsters for concealed carry for them. Heck. I even built my wife a Pink M4. It's what she wanted, it's what she got. And when she takes it out it's always the talk of the range.
http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b141/lvgood/FireArms/DSCN0009_003-1.jpg

I'll agree the show isn't fantastic, but it's intertainment. And there's not much on right now anyways....

I have crappy teeth too. I've also spent many thousands of dollars to fix them as much as they can be fixed. Vast improvement, if still not perfect. And yeah, I'm sure there would be some "man the harpoons" comments if she was a land whale. As for a wheelchair, that would depend if she was disabled or just obese.

Spirit of 76
03-15-2012, 19:02
*OK, photos voluntarily pulled until I can find a way around the TOS. But If anyone wants to use them, PM me if you don't have the link!

NeverMore1701
03-15-2012, 19:56
Infractions will indubitably be flying your way shortly, but....

:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:

Sporaticus
03-15-2012, 19:59
Would you guys pick on her if she were fat or in a wheelchair?


Of course they would. This is Glock Talk. They would pick on her especially if she was fat, and in spite of her being being disabled.

Sporaticus
03-15-2012, 20:00
Infractions will indubitably be flying your way shortly, but....

:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:


Yep. That's loctite right there. If not ban material.

Sporaticus
03-15-2012, 20:02
But as for the original question as to whether they can design and make a piston AR. With the shows resources, they could actually pay some engineers to design it, and then let the RJ folks build it. Of course the engineers would never be mentioned.

Javelin
03-15-2012, 20:05
Holy crap.

:wow:






















Is that a fender guitar behind Will?

Sporaticus
03-15-2012, 20:09
Who is Will?

Javelin
03-15-2012, 20:12
Who is Will?

The fat dude. :dunno:

Sporaticus
03-15-2012, 20:26
*OK, photos voluntarily pulled until I can find a way around the TOS. But If anyone wants to use them, PM me if you don't have the link!

Perhaps it's best that you don't try and find a way around the rules here. They don't dig that at all. Posting those pics was an infraction. A slap on the wrist, no huge deal. Intentionally side stepping the rules is a banning offense.

Spirit of 76
03-15-2012, 20:34
My question is: Do they consider dildos to be pornographic or sexually explicit? My Doctor considers them to be medical aids. I consider them to be tactical - which is well within the scope of a firearms forum! :rofl::rofl::rofl:

Otherwise, if I censor the language, what's the prob?

Javelin
03-15-2012, 20:37
My question is: Do they consider dildos to be pornographic or sexually explicit? My Doctor considers them to be medical aids. I consider them to be tactical - which is well within the scope of a firearms forum! :rofl::rofl::rofl:

Otherwise, if I censor the language, what's the prob?

MrsKitty will destroy you.

I think she has an infraction macro built into her keyboard....

:rofl:

NeverMore1701
03-15-2012, 20:39
MrsKitty will destroy you.

I think she has an infraction macro built into her keyboard....

:rofl:

More like implanted in her brain :whistling:


:supergrin:

Spirit of 76
03-15-2012, 20:39
So what you're telling me is that this place is wrapped up tighter than an RJF AR? :rofl:

Sporaticus
03-15-2012, 20:45
MrsKitty will destroy you.

I think she has an infraction macro built into her keyboard....

:rofl:



Reckon she gets paid by infraction? :contemplating:

NeverMore1701
03-15-2012, 21:23
Reckon she gets paid by infraction? :contemplating:

Coulda retired by now :rofl: