Range trip tomorrow..... finally [Archive] - Glock Talk

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nickE10mm
01-14-2012, 10:17
I will finally have some time to hit the outdoor state-owned range tomorrow morning. WOOHOO! Gonna take the Fusion longslide, the Glock 20SF w/Barsto and my new Ruger 22/45 pistol. Now that I can shoot cast in the Glock, I'm gonna be able to shoot up all of the cast loads I'd made over the last several months (but never shot), plus will be trying out some of my high pressure loads in the Glock that I never shot from it because of the stock barrel. I'll also be shooting some hardcast (WFNGC) max loads for accuracy. Should be a hoot!

I'll try and get some pics of the outing...

robert91922
01-14-2012, 14:17
We're looking forward to your range report. Just don't forget to take along protection equipment inc. gloves and don't forget to enjoy fully :wavey:

JimIsland
01-14-2012, 22:16
Sounds like fun! Keep us posted.

arushus
01-15-2012, 02:21
Looking forward to the report!

gwsanfor
01-15-2012, 02:59
Me too! I'm going down to the family farm where we have four ranges, to chrono my first 10mm handloads (VV N105, VV N340, VV 3N37, VV 3N38, AA #9, Blue Dot, Power Pistol, and Longshot) as well as Underwood 180gr FMJ, PPU Jhp, Blazer 200gr TMJ, AE 180gr FMJ, Hornady Custom XTP, Georgia 180gr Arms FMJ, and and Buffalo Bore 189gr JHP. My buddy id bringing his never-fired AK-47, so it should be a fun day. Got down there yesterda late, and ran out of light. I'll report the results here (http://goo.gl/HF2oV) on the tab labelled "First loads, 15 Jan 2012".

Nick and I are on the same program. My Bar-Sto dropped right into my G20sf after just a little filing on the hood. It's tight as a tick, but has not had a FTF yet, with factory, handloads, JHP or FMJ. My brass is not bulged with that barrel, whereas Underwood was bulging significantly with the stock barrel.

gwsanfor
01-15-2012, 18:32
So I must have beaten Keith home.

Had a pretty good day with the chrono, new handloads, and the G20sf. Results are at goo.gl/HF2oV on the "First loads, January 2012" tab.

The gun was a Glock G20sf with Bar-Sto barrel, OEM 17 lb recoil springs, and 4.5 lb OEM connector. Handloads were assembled on a Hornady LNL AP with all virgin Starline brass 0.87 " length 24.6 gr H2O water capacity, Federal #150 LPP, OAL 1.250, medium crimp, and the bullets were Precision Delta 180.3 gr FMJFN 0.595" length 0.400" diameter. Temperature 40F, altitude 640 ft above MSL, no wind, partly cloudy. Chrono was a ProChrono Digital 10 ft from the muzzle and 11 ft from the target. Propellants were individually weighed on a MyWeigh i201 scale (because some of these powders meter like corn flakes), and included VihtaVuori N105, N340, 3N38, 3N37; Accurate Arms #9; Alliant Blue Dot, Power Pistol; and Hogdon LongShot. Commercial rounds were Underwood 180 gr JHP, PPU 180 gr JHP, Blazer 200 gr TMJ, and American Eagle 180 gr FMJ. I ran out of light and was unable to chrono Hornady Custom 155 gr XTP, Georgia Arms 180 gr FMJ, Buffalo Bore 180 gr JHP, Underwood 180 gr FMJ, Underwood 165 gr GS, Underwood 135 gr JHP, Underwood 180 gr XTP, Underwood 180 gr GS, and Underwood 165 gr JHP, and will chrono them next weekend or as soon as weather allows, switching to 20 or 22 lb recoil springs.

Standard deviations for the VihtaVuori propellants were 13-19, equal to or better than all commercial rounds tested today. Other SD's were 17-30. N105 and 3N38 ran about 45 fps faster than Quickload predicted, Blue Dot 127 fps faster, and Longshot 101 fps faster. AA #9 ran 98 fps slower than predicted. I'll be looking into reasons for all these variations. VV powders ordinarily track QuickLoad to within a few fps.

The N105 had substantially more felt recoil than N340, the latter of which was very soft, even though having a pressure 10,000 psi higher than N105. 3N37 and 3N38 were in between. I had trouble getting LongShot to register with the very dependable ProChrono Digital, and suspect excessive ejecta or fading light, the latter of which curtailed the session.

Of the commercial rounds I got to, Underwood was superb as always, and right at the advertised 1300 fps. Very good stuff. The PPU and Blazer have no reason to exist, running 782 and 1038 fps respectively. AE was also underloaded at 1015 fps, but was noticeably more accurate than the other two low-power commercial fodder.

My shooting buddy Charlie brought his nice Hungarian AMD-65 AK47 (http://media.photobucket.com/image/amd%2065/dwhitehorne/IMG_2884.jpg), which he had for a year but had never shot (!). It's a fine weapon, and it was a good day. Yesterday my Father-in-Law came down with a mint Browning HiPower, and proceeded to put 10 rounds in a group the size of a nickel, and then left, having demonstrated casually who is the best shot around these parts. It sure ain't me ....

_The_Shadow
01-15-2012, 19:47
I like your data and especially the result from Underwoods stuff...I wonder what powder he's using for those loads...Did you see any expansion, bulges or smiles or was your chamber support and lockup sufficient to prevent smiles?

gwsanfor
01-15-2012, 20:59
I like your data and especially the result from Underwoods stuff...I wonder what powder he's using for those loads...Did you see any expansion, bulges or smiles or was your chamber support and lockup sufficient to prevent smiles?

The Bar-Sto seems to completely eliminate bulges even in Underwood, which appears to be loaded at or near the SAAMI max. It will pay for itself pretty quickly in reduced brass costs, as much as I shoot. I saved the brass in separate labeled bags, and am going to examine it more closely tomorrow, but my initial sampling looked very good.

Ethereal Killer
01-15-2012, 22:01
GWsanfor,
you are gonna start a riot if you claim that quickload more or less accurately predicted your velocities!! :whistling:

For some reason some people around here (at least with the 10mm) seem to have serious doubts that it's even close. in my experience, if you enter the data correctly and get the case capacity and seating depth and bullet length right it's been within EASILY 100fps. usually it's closer to +-30fps of course that can be lot to lot and primer variances too. Those who have not spent to get this program and learn to use it correctly have NO idea what they are missing. It's simply one of the best time and money saving tools a reloader can buy IMO.

awesome data keeping. it looks like that 3n37 wasnt as bad as we thought huh?

_The_Shadow
01-15-2012, 22:50
The Bar-Sto seems to completely eliminate bulges even in Underwood, which appears to be loaded at or near the SAAMI max. It will pay for itself pretty quickly in reduced brass costs, as much as I shoot. I saved the brass in separate labeled bags, and am going to examine it more closely tomorrow, but my initial sampling looked very good.


Is the Bar-Sto barrel stock length? or Extra as compared to factory? :dunno:

gwsanfor
01-16-2012, 04:40
GWsanfor,
you are gonna start a riot if you claim that quickload more or less accurately predicted your velocities!! :whistling:

For some reason some people around here (at least with the 10mm) seem to have serious doubts that it's even close. in my experience, if you enter the data correctly and get the case capacity and seating depth and bullet length right it's been within EASILY 100fps. usually it's closer to +-30fps of course that can be lot to lot and primer variances too. Those who have not spent to get this program and learn to use it correctly have NO idea what they are missing. It's simply one of the best time and money saving tools a reloader can buy IMO.

awesome data keeping. it looks like that 3n37 wasnt as bad as we thought huh?

Ethereal, QuickLoad has limitations (like no propellant data for 800-X :crying:, no apparent input for magnum primers, etc.), quirks, and a steep learning curve, but it works well once you learn how to use it. To get good results, you absolutely have to enter actual measured values for case and bullet dimensions, because the ones supplied are significantly innacurate in some instances, and you can get stacked tolerance effects. Also, although it's based on the old Powley Calculator (http://kwk.us/powley.html), which was based on IMR powders (http://www.shootersforum.com/handloading-equipment/25876-powley-vs-quickload.html) and certain bottleneck rifle cartridges (http://kwk.us/powley_notes.html), it seems to be the best (http://kwk.us/ibsw.html) of the various internal ballistics simulators. I find that it generally gives me within +/_ 30 fps (or better) of actual, if used properly, and if you consider that the typical handgun bullet loses about 1 fps per foot travelled, so that for a 10 feet distance from the muzzle to the chrono, you should add 10 fps to your chrono result. VV powders have usually been dead on, others not so much. There are various adjustments to the QL variables explained in the manual, such as case volume, weighting factor, initiation pressure, and brissance (Ba) of the propellant. You can make slight adjustments and "calibrate" QL so that once you have real chrono data, you can then be pretty sure that changes to the load in question are accurately reflected by QL.

It's certainly not a perfect tool, but once you have it set up for a particular powder, case, bullet, temperature, etc., it seems to give pretty accurate estimates of pressure and velocity. I could hardly load without it. Having said that, I find that it tends to estimate conservatively low, and therefore fails safe, but I would not use it to load full house max pressure rounds without confirming some lesser charges empirically with a good chrono. Not trying to start a flame war, YMMV, etc., but QL was about the best $150 I ever spent for reloading.

There is a lot of information about tweaking QL and using it's more advanced features, like:
http://www.6mmbr.com/quickload.html
http://www.thehighroad.org/archive/index.php/t-581706.html
http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2574516
http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=412190
http://www.thehighroad.org/archive/index.php/t-594960.htmlshowtopic=129835"]http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=129835 (http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?[/URL]
[URL="http://www.thehighroad.org/archive/index.php/t-594960.html)
http://www.the-long-family.com/Tuning%20QL%20to%20achieve%20best%20results.pdf

Taterhead
01-16-2012, 15:34
gwsanfor, you have been busy! Lots of loads. Lots of variables. There is a lot of data here to work through. Thanks for compiling it and sharing. I appreciate a fellow spreadsheet geek like myself. :supergrin:

nickE10mm
01-17-2012, 12:16
Ethereal, QuickLoad has limitations (like no propellant data for 800-X :crying:, no apparent input for magnum primers, etc.), quirks, and a steep learning curve, but it works well once you learn how to use it. To get good results, you absolutely have to enter actual measured values for case and bullet dimensions, because the ones supplied are significantly innacurate in some instances, and you can get stacked tolerance effects. Also, although it's based on the old Powley Calculator (http://kwk.us/powley.html), which was based on IMR powders (http://www.shootersforum.com/handloading-equipment/25876-powley-vs-quickload.html) and certain bottleneck rifle cartridges (http://kwk.us/powley_notes.html), it seems to be the best (http://kwk.us/ibsw.html) of the various internal ballistics simulators. I find that it generally gives me within +/_ 30 fps (or better) of actual, if used properly, and if you consider that the typical handgun bullet loses about 1 fps per foot travelled, so that for a 10 feet distance from the muzzle to the chrono, you should add 10 fps to your chrono result. VV powders have usually been dead on, others not so much. There are various adjustments to the QL variables explained in the manual, such as case volume, weighting factor, initiation pressure, and brissance (Ba) of the propellant. You can make slight adjustments and "calibrate" QL so that once you have real chrono data, you can then be pretty sure that changes to the load in question are accurately reflected by QL.

It's certainly not a perfect tool, but once you have it set up for a particular powder, case, bullet, temperature, etc., it seems to give pretty accurate estimates of pressure and velocity. I could hardly load without it. Having said that, I find that it tends to estimate conservatively low, and therefore fails safe, but I would not use it to load full house max pressure rounds without confirming some lesser charges empirically with a good chrono. Not trying to start a flame war, YMMV, etc., but QL was about the best $150 I ever spent for reloading.

There is a lot of information about tweaking QL and using it's more advanced features, like:
http://www.6mmbr.com/quickload.html
http://www.thehighroad.org/archive/index.php/t-581706.html
http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2574516
http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=412190
http://www.thehighroad.org/archive/index.php/t-594960.htmlshowtopic=129835"]http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=129835 (http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?[/URL]
[URL="http://www.thehighroad.org/archive/index.php/t-594960.html)
http://www.the-long-family.com/Tuning%20QL%20to%20achieve%20best%20results.pdf

Great data and links here, sir. Thanks

nickE10mm
01-17-2012, 14:05
Okay, so I DID get out to shoot on Sunday morning but the range was PACKED and, even though I was literally the first person in the door, I got bumped out of my range lane since there was a line of people waiting. I had close to 500 10mm rounds to shoot and probably the same amount of .22LR to shoot but hardly made a dent in my ammo pile. I shot maybe 130 rounds of 10mm in both the Glock and the Fusion TOTAL. I was really just getting warmed up when they called out my range number 50 minutes after I arrived and I had to pack all my gear away and leave. BOOOO!!!!!!

My admittedly sparse details are as follows: The Glock functioned GREAT with the new Barsto barrel. NO failures to feed with any of my various handloads (Berry 180gr, Hornady 180 and 200gr XTP's, Rainier 180gr and Beartooth WFNGC 200gr's, however, I did have feeding problems with my 175gr Suter's LSWC loads. There were all kinds of jams and stutters with this load. I will have to look into what caused the issues. I fired mild, medium and very hot loads through the Barsto and the cases are all coming out with a diameter of .425-.426"... about what they come out as from the Fusion barrel -- EXCELLENT case support. The Glock DEFINITELY kicks harder than the Fusion with full loads. Ouch. It was about 30 degrees that morning so maybe that had something to do with it. :)

My Fusion showed me why I paid such a premium for it. What an absolute monster of a pistol. I had ZERO malfunctions of any kind with the longslide. Boringly reliable and deadly accurate. I'm including my first 15y target of the day.... The Glock rounds are on the left, the Fusion in the middle at bottom and the 22/45 rounds are on the right.

http://img151.imageshack.us/img151/3677/img4439u.jpg
http://img594.imageshack.us/img594/2354/img4440.png

Great day at the range.... but I really need to go to my buddy's house in the country or my Dad's with the chrono so I can really do a proper range report.

Well, I guess its back to the ol' reloading bench...... :tongueout:

Taterhead
01-17-2012, 14:16
Thanks Nick. I would say that the Fusion looks to be a keeper. Nice shooting there.

gwsanfor
01-17-2012, 14:53
Is the Bar-Sto barrel stock length? or Extra as compared to factory? :dunno:
Stock, 4.61".

Kegs
01-17-2012, 14:55
How you like that .22/45?

Jitterbug
01-17-2012, 15:46
It's nice when it's just one hole eh?

arushus
01-17-2012, 17:07
Those holes look like they were made with a hole punch! Are you playing tricks on us nick???? :)

bac1023
01-19-2012, 19:51
Thanks for the info.

nickE10mm
01-19-2012, 20:14
How you like that .22/45?

LOVE the 22/45. Dead reliable, accurate as hell and a perfect way to train (and it's grip is identical to a 1911's). LOVE it. Bought it new for $280 from Bud's. Everyone should own one!

nickE10mm
01-19-2012, 20:16
Those holes look like they were made with a hole punch! Are you playing tricks on us nick???? :)

I suppose they DO look like a hole punch. Lol. What a pistol! No joke, that hole is three mags worth (24 shots).

arushus
01-19-2012, 21:06
nick, Ive been looking pretty seriously at a fusion longslide 10mm hunter kit, and besides the trigger kit and grips, what else would I need to buy to build a complete firearm?

nickE10mm
01-19-2012, 21:10
nick, Ive been looking pretty seriously at a fusion longslide 10mm hunter kit, and besides the trigger kit and grips, what else would I need to buy to build a complete firearm?

Honestly I don't know. I had mine built (as opposed to the kit). Seriously, call Fusion and talk to Bob ... (the owner and main smith). He won't lead you astray. Tell him nickE10mm sent ya! ;-)

Jitterbug
01-20-2012, 08:11
The 22/45 is a great idea, I have an old 30+ year old Ruger MkII with a bull barrel and a super sweet trigger.

I almost always lay it out alongside either a lightweight .45acp or the 10mm at the range and interchange between pistols. I'll run a mag of 10mm then a mag of .22, been doing it for years.

The .22 catches the slightest "bad habit" and helps me to quickly correct and stay focused on fundamentals.

They are a great training aid and a fun and inexpensive pistol to shoot. Also a good tool to break in new shooters to the sport.

They are a great small game hunting pistol too!

nickE10mm
01-20-2012, 08:13
The 22/45 is a great idea, I have an old 30+ year old Ruger MkII with a bull barrel and a super sweet trigger.

I almost always lay it out alongside either a lightweight .45acp or the 10mm when shooting and interchange between pistols. I'll run a mag of 10mm then a mag of .22, been doing it for years.

The .22 catches the slightest "bad habit" and helps me to quickly correct and stay focused on fundamentals.

They are a great training aid and a fun and inexpensive pistol to shoot. Also a good tool to break in new shooters to the sport.

They are a great small game hunting pistol too!

Yep.... thats exactly how I used it at the range. Ran a mag through one of the 10's ... then a mag with the .22. Good way to keep focused on what you need to be doing!

blastfact
01-20-2012, 19:28
Nick,,, I'm glad you got out and burnt some powder and made some noise!

Those targets don't speak of your weapons. They speak of you as a shooter. And a darn fine one at that!

I'm sorry to hear you got bum rushed at the range. I would pay my time and then some and shoot. Thank God I don't have to go to indoor ranges much. I do use them when I am on the road from time to time. But over all I prefer outdoor laid back ranges.

Now start a thread and let us know how your new press is working out,,,, please. :)

nickE10mm
01-20-2012, 19:34
Blast - thanks for the compliments - appreciated

As for the range... I WAS at one of those "laid back outdoor ranges". Was pretty surprised when they called me to leave. I would have gladly paid more money to stay ... but I suppose they have a system who's rules I have to follow :crying:

As for a thread about my new press... I'd love to--- if I had any dang time! Work and family has me running around like the proverbial chicken. Your request has been noted!! That would be a fun review, too!

gwsanfor
01-21-2012, 19:32
I don't mean to highjack Nick's thread, but I started this trip report here, so I'll finish it here, and at http://www.ar15armory.com/forums/Trip-report-t114951.html&gopid=1714124#entry1714124. I'll post the next one as a news thread.

I completed the chrono work I started last week, today shooting Hornady Custom XTP 155gr, Georgia Arms FMJ 180gr, Buffalo Bore JHP 180gr, Underwood FMJ 180gr, Underwood GS 165gr, Underwood JHP 135gr, Underwood XTP 180, Underwood GS 180gr, Underwood JHP 165gr. The results are in colums 13-21, tab "First loads, 15 Jan 2012" in the Google Doc at http://goo.gl/k8VXB .

It was heavily overcast with intermittent showers, 50F, little wind. I moved the chrono 2' closer to the target. I used the same Glock G20sf with 4.61 Bar-Sto barrel, except with a 22# ISMI spring and stainless guiderod replacing the 17# OEM assembly (and I FrogLubed every part of the gun yesterday, which had no noticeable effect so far). Underwood ammo still ejected about 16" to the right, at about a 90 degree angle, so I probably need a 24# spring. The brass was impeccable after shooting with little or no bulging (Yay Bar-Sto!), and no pressure signs on the primer.

Today was all factory ammo with few surprises. SD's were lowest on the Hornady, Buffalo Bore, and the Underwood XTP 180gr (the most expensive rounds) at 12, 9 (!), and 16. Velocities were mostly as advertised, except the Hornady ran 107fps faster than advertised. The rest were right on the money with deviations of 28 or lower (without adjusting about 12fps for the 12 feet from muzzle to chrono), including Underwood and Georgia Arms, the cost leaders of this batch of premium ammo. I was very pleased that the SD's from my handloads last week are generally as good as or better than this premium ammo tested today. I just ordered 1,000 rounds of Georgia Arms (for plinking and general target use) and about 250 more Underwood Rounds (as a model to build hot rounds to). The Underwood 165gr Golden Sabre seemed unusually smooth and soft to me, considering that it was a lighter bullet.

I could not get the Graco rail-mount Brass Catcher to stay on the gun for three shots, and the hand-held version caught next to no brass. I'll return those and try something else. This design may work for other people or other guns, and the inventor, Neil (http://www.gracomodels.com/), has been extremely gracious. I desperately need a functional brass catcher.

I shot my BIL's H&K .45 USP and his Kimber .45 1911. Nice guns, especially the Kimber, but I'll stick to Glocks for the foreseeable future. The BIL is leaning toward getting a G20 with 6" barrel for deer hunting. I will draw him to the Dark Side with Underwood ammunition.

Sadly, I blew up the backstop by shooting many 10mm rounds into the same spot while using the chrono. It had reached end-of-life in my view, so I'll buy a few more railroad cross ties and tart it up later this winter. This 10mm is hard on inanimate objects. I like it.

I celebrated by taking the whole family to Cap'n Toms, the excellent local fish house. It was a very good day.

nickE10mm
01-22-2012, 11:05
I don't mean to highjack Nick's thread, but I started this trip report here, so I'll finish it here, and at http://www.ar15armory.com/forums/Trip-report-t114951.html&gopid=1714124#entry1714124. I'll post the next one as a news thread.

I completed the chrono work I started last week, today shooting Hornady Custom XTP 155gr, Georgia Arms FMJ 180gr, Buffalo Bore JHP 180gr, Underwood FMJ 180gr, Underwood GS 165gr, Underwood JHP 135gr, Underwood XTP 180, Underwood GS 180gr, Underwood JHP 165gr. The results are in colums 13-21, tab "First loads, 15 Jan 2012" in the Google Doc at http://goo.gl/k8VXB .

It was heavily overcast with intermittent showers, 50F, little wind. I moved the chrono 2' closer to the target. I used the same Glock G20sf with 4.61 Bar-Sto barrel, except with a 22# ISMI spring and stainless guiderod replacing the 17# OEM assembly (and I FrogLubed every part of the gun yesterday, which had no noticeable effect so far). Underwood ammo still ejected about 16" to the right, at about a 90 degree angle, so I probably need a 24# spring. The brass was impeccable after shooting with little or no bulging (Yay Bar-Sto!), and no pressure signs on the primer.

Today was all factory ammo with few surprises. SD's were lowest on the Hornady, Buffalo Bore, and the Underwood XTP 180gr (the most expensive rounds) at 12, 9 (!), and 16. Velocities were mostly as advertised, except the Hornady ran 107fps faster than advertised. The rest were right on the money with deviations of 28 or lower (without adjusting about 12fps for the 12 feet from muzzle to chrono), including Underwood and Georgia Arms, the cost leaders of this batch of premium ammo. I was very pleased that the SD's from my handloads last week are generally as good as or better than this premium ammo tested today. I just ordered 1,000 rounds of Georgia Arms (for plinking and general target use) and about 250 more Underwood Rounds (as a model to build hot rounds to). The Underwood 165gr Golden Sabre seemed unusually smooth and soft to me, considering that it was a lighter bullet.

I could not get the Graco rail-mount Brass Catcher to stay on the gun for three shots, and the hand-held version caught next to no brass. I'll return those and try something else. This design may work for other people or other guns, and the inventor, Neil (http://www.gracomodels.com/), has been extremely gracious. I desperately need a functional brass catcher.

I shot my BIL's H&K .45 USP and his Kimber .45 1911. Nice guns, especially the Kimber, but I'll stick to Glocks for the foreseeable future. The BIL is leaning toward getting a G20 with 6" barrel for deer hunting. I will draw him to the Dark Side with Underwood ammunition.

Sadly, I blew up the backstop by shooting many 10mm rounds into the same spot while using the chrono. It had reached end-of-life in my view, so I'll buy a few more railroad cross ties and tart it up later this winter. This 10mm is hard on inanimate objects. I like it.

I celebrated by taking the whole family to Cap'n Toms, the excellent local fish house. It was a very good day.

You have been a very busy boy!! Lots of ammo tests! Your spreadsheet is very good work, thanks for that. (I don't mind you polluting my thread, LOL).... My thread was pretty abysmal anyways considering my having to leave early on my range trip anyways.... Plus, I was gonna go again today but we've had icey roads and low hanging freezing fog this morning so I decided to stay in and load up some new target stuff with a new powder I bought (HP38, same as W231). Gonna try to shoot for 900-1000fps with cast stuff for some bunny-fart type loads... rabbit and squirrel medicine :))

BTW, good to know about the rail-mounted brass catcher ... I will be on the lookout for a viable alternative.

Stay safe!