How do the rules change in a SHTF situation?

[glock39]

That's kind of a broad question, so let's start with a real-life example:

During the last round of LA riots, some Korean merchants, who had their whole life savings invested in their businesses, decided that they didn't want their stores burned down. So they climbed up on the roofs with some rifles to defend their property. Not being particularly bloodthirsty, the merchants didn't wait until the rioters were within throwing distance of a Molotov Cocktail and then gun them all down (which they apparently had enough collective firepower to do). Instead, they watched the surrounding area for approaching rioters and used a (presumably scoped) rifle to fire a warning shot into the ground in front of them from a block away. The rioters unanimously decided that they really didn't want to burn down any buildings on that street after all, dropped their Molotov Cocktails and rapidly left without a drop of blood being shed.

Now, if the merchants had done that during, err, “peacetime” conditions, they would have all been arrested for Assault with a Deadly Weapon, if not Terrorism and Hate Crimes (Your Honor, my client was innocently using a glass bottle to carry some gasoline to his car when the bottle accidentally caught on fire. When he went running to the nearest building in search of a fire extinguisher, the accused murderously opened fire on this defenseless child).

But, in spite of the best efforts of the mainstream media to portray them as “snipers”, common sense seemed to win out and the police apparently decided that the merchants were being nice (and avoiding a massacre) by firing a few warning shots. At least, I never hear of any charges being filed against the merchants.

Conversely, if one of those merchants had decided that the riot was a good opportunity to get even with the local gang, and started actively hunting down and shooting anyone who had ever shoplifted from him, then I think the chances of his being prosecuted afterwords would have been pretty high. So, there are rules, even in a “Without Rule of Law” situation (which is not to say that you can count on everyone to follow the rules, of course).

So, what are the rules in SHTF?? Which normal rules do not apply (for the duration), and what rules still apply?

[G29Reload]

The event itself is a legally defined condition.

A riot in progress is recognized, known, heck on tv. Laws are written that causing one deliberately is an offense, insurance policies take them into account, police respond when one occurs, its a clear condition.

Kind of like the late USSC justice once said about porn. You know it when you see it.

If you live outside DC, and half meg nuke goes off in LA or Chicago, you know you probably shouldnt go to work that day. Its pretty much a done deal.

If you lived in LA during the riots, you watched on TV and got the news on where exactly its happening, and if, and how fast its spreading. If you're nearby you arm yourself and hunker down, or flee.

If not, you stay put. Things compelling enough to get your attention usually have obvious instructions.

[glock39]

G29Reload

OK, I know what a riot is. And I would generally do everything humanly possible to avoid being caught in one. My question is that, during a riot (or other large scale disaster) you can do stuff to defend yourself that would normally land you in jail if you did the exact same thing when there wasn't a riot/earthquake/Invasion from Mars in progress. The difference between the emergency rules and the normal rules is what I'm interested in.

[Aceman]

The "rules" are the rules. They may be invoked under any and all conditions. You may have a defense that is adequate based on the situation/context, but the rules stand.

Best advice - don't do anything that violates the rules unless necessary. Also, warning shots that bounce off the pavement may be manslaughter/murder 1/2 if they hit/kill somebody. Just a consideration. You gotta do what is best for you.

By the way - the rules are called Laws, I believe.

[UneasyRider]

The "rules" are the rules. They may be invoked under any and all conditions. You may have a defense that is adequate based on the situation/context, but the rules stand.

Best advice - don't do anything that violates the rules unless necessary. Also, warning shots that bounce off the pavement may be manslaughter/murder 1/2 if they hit/kill somebody. Just a consideration. You gotta do what is best for you.

By the way - the rules are called Laws, I believe.

:agree:

[UneasyRider]

Here in Florida the rules really would not change. Your home is your castle and you may stand your ground. Don't shoot if you don't have to. That's about it.

[glock39]

By the way - the rules are called Laws, I believe.

No disrespect to the Law intended. I was using the broader term "rules" to also include non-legal guidelines (for example, not ever telling anyone that you're armed) that are normally followed but might be appropriate to reconsider in an extraordinary situation.

And I'm certainly not trying to go Wild West and suggest that the Law doesn't still apply. But natural or manmade diasters (and Invasions from Mars) are, by definition, extraordinary circumstances.

My own take is that "Moral" aspects of the Law (such as not endangering innocent bystanders) are absolute and should be followed no matter what's going on. "Technical" aspects of the Law (it's legal for you to carry a gun but a violation to be seen carrying a gun) are written for normal circumstances.

In the original example, firing a warning shot is a violation of the Law that you may later be held accountable for. But if doing so prevents several people from being killed, then it becomes a more difficult choice to make. Do you follow the Letter of the Law, or do you make the best choice you can under difficult circumstances to avoid anybody being killed?

[Dexters]

So, what are the rules in SHTF?? Which normal rules do not apply (for the duration), and what rules still apply?

The rules change according the situation and over time.

If the SHTG is a localized electric outage - all or part of the city and there are riots you better be able to defend your actions after ROL is re-established.

If, you think ROL will not be established for 3 months or so then you might have more slack explaining your actions.

If you don't think ROL will be re-established at all then you and your friends establish the rules that you will live by.

[Cavalry Doc]

Don't be surprised when the situation normalizes, that you find out the rules didn't actually change.

http://www.nola.com/crime/index.ssf/2011/12/former_new_orleans_police_offi_3.html

There is no one answer that can cover every situation. Just do what you really think is best, then hope you are right.

[LASTRESORT20]

~ "There is no one answer that can cover every situation. Just do what you really think is best, then hope you are right" ~
************************************************

There is only one obvious "Rule" when it comes to danger to myself and or Family....

[kirgi08]

No disrespect to the Law intended. I was using the broader term "rules" to also include non-legal guidelines (for example, not ever telling anyone that you're armed) that are normally followed but might be appropriate to reconsider in an extraordinary situation.

And I'm certainly not trying to go Wild West and suggest that the Law doesn't still apply. But natural or manmade diasters (and Invasions from Mars) are, by definition, extraordinary circumstances.

My own take is that "Moral" aspects of the Law (such as not endangering innocent bystanders) are absolute and should be followed no matter what's going on. "Technical" aspects of the Law (it's legal for you to carry a gun but a violation to be seen carrying a gun) are written for normal circumstances.

In the original example, firing a warning shot is a violation of the Law that you may later be held accountable for. But if doing so prevents several people from being killed, then it becomes a more difficult choice to make. Do you follow the Letter of the Law, or do you make the best choice you can under difficult circumstances to avoid anybody being killed?

You have trodden upon a very vague "grey/gray" area,that I'd rather not speculate on.C/Doc has good advice,the problem is his advice is coming from his travels and my advice is the same.

The best way ta deal with these problems are ta avoid them,if you can't. :dunno:.

Being human is just that,I hate ta say this.Tend ta you and yours and let others do the same.In a riot/shtf scenario,your gonna havta be tuff trooper.The best way ta avoid said "scenario" is ta be gone before it happens.Knowing when ta GOOD is the MOST vital thing for you and yours.GOOD doesn't always mean "bugging" out.It can also mean "bugging" in.

INFO

Knowing what's goins on is vital,how does one acquire info while there is a "disturbance". There is a plethora of ways.Internet,you get what's posted/blogged or spoon fed by .gov. Provided the "net" is "up in your A/O.

Next is "word of mouth",neighbors hearing from family via cell or landline.In a complete crash most of those services are either overwhelmed or dead.

Now what does that leave,the alternatives.CB,good for local and great if someone has taken the time and effort ta set up a Radio relay league.Folk can CTA on that system.All of our trucks have SSB radios in them.

Now it gets interesting and $$$$$$$$$$.

HAM radio,if someone has the gumption and resources they can set up a world wide comms net.I'm testing in 2 weeks.

:wow:

I spend nearly 80hrs a week using a secure private system and I still analyze other comms needs and try ta help folks.Info is the absolute most important thing in the world.

Folks,ya gotta know what's going on around you ta keep you and yours safe.'08.

[glock39]

Anybody please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong on this, but I think there is what I would call a "Bureaucratic Overload Effect" in disasters. For a small event, like a power outage for a few days, then eventually all the police reports are going to get read and all normal rules apply.

However, for a really major event, like a hurricane or wide-spread rioting, there comes a point where the system is simply overloaded and will (probably) never catch up. I mean, if 10,000 other people have been looted following a hurricane, then it's probably unlikely that the police will show up to do a proper investigation if you report your house was burglarized. Unless somebody was killed during the break-in, or the Cure for Cancer was on your stolen laptop, it's just not going to happen.

Likewise, if the police have been completely unavailable for weeks (or even just a few days during a riot), then I think it's likely to be accepted that people had to look out for themselves. Therefore breaking some of the normal rules about, for instance, carrying a gun in public, are unlikely to be investigated unless there is another factor (someone got shot, the person carrying the gun was obviously going around threatening people rather than just defending himself).

Some of this may vary depending on local conditions and politics. In Texas, reporting that a homeowner was seen sitting on his front porch with a shotgun (following a hurricane) would probably not cause much fuss unless shots had been fired. In New Orleans, some local authorities used Katrina as an excuse to confiscate everybody's guns, whether the gun owners were doing anything the least bit illegal or not.

[kirgi08]

:popcorn:

[redbrd]

I spent time in New Orleans after Katrina. The rules change when there is nobody to enforce them. What do they become? Well having traveled the world it seems that the rule when there is no one to enforce the rules becomes "might is right" or at best "do what you must". The good people will not abuse the situation but there will be plenty of people (animals) that will.

[UneasyRider]

Anybody please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong on this, but I think there is what I would call a "Bureaucratic Overload Effect" in disasters. For a small event, like a power outage for a few days, then eventually all the police reports are going to get read and all normal rules apply.

However, for a really major event, like a hurricane or wide-spread rioting, there comes a point where the system is simply overloaded and will (probably) never catch up. I mean, if 10,000 other people have been looted following a hurricane, then it's probably unlikely that the police will show up to do a proper investigation if you report your house was burglarized. Unless somebody was killed during the break-in, or the Cure for Cancer was on your stolen laptop, it's just not going to happen.

Likewise, if the police have been completely unavailable for weeks (or even just a few days during a riot), then I think it's likely to be accepted that people had to look out for themselves. Therefore breaking some of the normal rules about, for instance, carrying a gun in public, are unlikely to be investigated unless there is another factor (someone got shot, the person carrying the gun was obviously going around threatening people rather than just defending himself).

Some of this may vary depending on local conditions and politics. In Texas, reporting that a homeowner was seen sitting on his front porch with a shotgun (following a hurricane) would probably not cause much fuss unless shots had been fired. In New Orleans, some local authorities used Katrina as an excuse to confiscate everybody's guns, whether the gun owners were doing anything the least bit illegal or not.

When it's all over they apply the law from the worst offender first and work back. So let's say you cowboy up and shoot a guy who "invaded" your neighborhood to do harm, your going to be in trouble.

There is a time for that if the world falls apart completely but if it is going to be put back together when it's over you will do best to obey the existing rules to the best of your ability.

[Aceman]

I spent time in New Orleans after Katrina. The rules change when there is nobody to enforce them. What do they become? Well having traveled the world it seems that the rule when there is no one to enforce the rules becomes "might is right" or at best "do what you must". The good people will not abuse the situation but there will be plenty of people (animals) that will.

Yeah? Try explaining that to my kids. They know that won't always fly.

so I'm out...and then I return:

8yr Old - He hit me!
12yr Old - No I didn't.
8yr Old - See the bruise???

Me - Son, come on over here....

The point is that the rules have consequences associated with them.

Now - the rules of survival are simple - do what you need to do to stay alive and stay well. My #1 rule is stay home, stay, low, cause no trouble, attract no attention.

[Maine1]

I think prudence and caution are good companions in situations like the LA Triathlon (Shoot-loot-scoot).
going cowboy will cost you in the long term. If society totally collapses, you will wish it back, warts and all.

there are things that i know of that were either unreported, or were reported and were so low in priority they were never followed up on during the LA riots, and i expectr the same is true of katrina.

but that is NOT the way to bet.

[lawman800]

With the massive riots and looting going on with all the police resources going to contain what they can and also protecting the firefighters and paramedics from being shot at, a bunch of store owners standing on their own business property with firearms (in accordance with CA law) is about as low of a priority for law enforcement as it can get in that kind of situation.

[eb31]

I agree with Aceman.


I say..in a true SHTF situation...there are no rules. You do whatever you need to do to stay alive and protect your family. And I do mean WHATEVER you need to do.

[Aceman]

I agree with Aceman.


I say..in a true SHTF situation...there are no rules. You do whatever you need to do to stay alive and protect your family. And I do mean WHATEVER you need to do.

Remember though, my goal is to not NEED to protect them. But what i would need to do, honestly, doesn't vary that much from say, last Tuesday...

Major mob is the only thing i can thing of that might be different - but even that's gonna be rare. And at that point, my official mob strategy is run like hell!

30 guys with even 10 armed with G17's, It won't end well for me most likely. One of those rounds is gonna find me before I find the shooter.

[lawman800]

However I hate to bring this up, at least for a little while, there won't be huge riots in most situations where it wasn't the precipitating event. That is... after the Northridge earthquakes or some other disaster, rioting wasn't the first nor main thing that happened. The LA Riots happened because that was pretty much the whole event.

I'm saying this because we focus a lot on firearms and preps and self-defense, but most of the time, aside from some people taking advantage of the situation, life goes on as usual with a few disturbances and inconveniences.

[pugman]

In your scenario good luck on prosecution.

From a block away tell me which of the Korean merchants fired at you....?

There is a joke in there somewhere about people all looking alike but I will let you figure it out...

SHTF: there are no rules The problem is if your definition of S matches everyone else's.

[Cavalry Doc]

I agree with Aceman.


I say..in a true SHTF situation...there are no rules. You do whatever you need to do to stay alive and protect your family. And I do mean WHATEVER you need to do.

If were a choice between me and mine, or one of them, that's one situation. But I'd be real careful about thinking the world had gone all "Mad Max" on you, and the rules were never going to come back to haunt you.

A good basic rule of thumb, is to only shoot people that you REALLY have to shoot. If order is restored, and you end up in court, do not forget the heightened adrenalin of the moment will have been long forgotten before your jury deliberates.

Be real safe out there, and if the choice is there, be real nice to those around you. Don't go looking for trouble, you might find it.


ETA: If the power ever comes back on, posts like that may be read aloud in court by you. Just something to think about. :wavey:

[John Rambo]

Algiers Point during the Katrina looting spree. It will tell you everything you need to know.

[eb31]

If were a choice between me and mine, or one of them, that's one situation. But I'd be real careful about thinking the world had gone all "Mad Max" on you, and the rules were never going to come back to haunt you.

A good basic rule of thumb, is to only shoot people that you REALLY have to shoot. If order is restored, and you end up in court, do not forget the heightened adrenalin of the moment will have been long forgotten before your jury deliberates.

Be real safe out there, and if the choice is there, be real nice to those around you. Don't go looking for trouble, you might find it.


ETA: If the power ever comes back on, posts like that may be read aloud in court by you. Just something to think about. :wavey:


No one said anything about going looking for trouble. You make it sound as if I were talking about hunting neighbors down...lol

I stand by what I said...in a SHTF scenerio...or even a SD scenerio...you do whatever you need to do to survive and to protect your family.

Now..I feel I must add...because of the follow up posts....anything I ever state is with the assumption that those I am talking to have common sense and can make rational decisions based on training and life experiences.

Sorry (not literally) if I am talking to anyone that takes things out of context and cannot use reason when determining a course of action when pertaining to SD.

[G29Reload]

I think prudence and caution are good companions in situations like the LA Triathlon (Shoot-loot-scoot).
going cowboy will cost you in the long term. If society totally collapses, you will wish it back, warts and all.

there are things that i know of that were either unreported, or were reported and were so low in priority they were never followed up on during the LA riots, and i expectr the same is true of katrina.

but that is NOT the way to bet.

Similarly, if you were lying low in your own neighborhood, whether urban OR rural and you went "cowboy" on some perceived problem, you may have been totally radical about it and shed some blood. If the SHTF the police may not even investigate, tied up for months elsewhere with other things, if they continue to exist at ALL.

But if the "problem" you cowboy'd up on turned out to have some friends in the neighborhood…you'd be investigated by the neighbors instead of police.

who liked him.

And they might just be carrying a rope and an attitude.

Same problem, different animal.

[Cavalry Doc]

No one said anything about going looking for trouble. You make it sound as if I were talking about hunting neighbors down...lol

I stand by what I said...in a SHTF scenerio...or even a SD scenerio...you do whatever you need to do to survive and to protect your family.

Now..I feel I must add...because of the follow up posts....anything I ever state is with the assumption that those I am talking to have common sense and can make rational decisions based on training and life experiences.

Sorry (not literally) if I am talking to anyone that takes things out of context and cannot use reason when determining a course of action when pertaining to SD.


See, there are rules. Right on brother. :wavey:

[Cavalry Doc]

Similarly, if you were lying low in your own neighborhood, whether urban OR rural and you went "cowboy" on some perceived problem, you may have been totally radical about it and shed some blood. If the SHTF the police may not even investigate, tied up for months elsewhere with other things, if they continue to exist at ALL.

But if the "problem" you cowboy'd up on turned out to have some friends in the neighborhood…you'd be investigated by the neighbors instead of police.

who liked him.

And they might just be carrying a rope and an attitude.

Same problem, different animal.

More likely, a sneaky attack. 1/2 dozen molotavs onto the roof in the middle of the night, and run like heck. After all.... You've already "gone cowboy" on one of their friends.

[Dirk Pitt]

As a survivor of the LA riots I can speak first hand to all the "fun" that was around. The rules / laws don't change. The variable is who is around to enforce them.

Using that same example of the Koreans and how they protected themselves, I saw an interview right in the middle of the festivities of some news reporter interviewing a Korean store owner (who spoke fluent english, no accent at all) about the situation and he responded on how they were able to keep the crowds a bay, and her next question was about his "assault rifle" and if it was registered! The look he gave her was priceless which promptly ended the interview.

Even in the middle of a SHTF event some folks are still clinging to their stupid ideas as they are being proven wrong in front of them. Go Figure

[quake]

Not anything that hasn't already been said here, but to me, the rules (and laws, principles, and morals) don't change. Situations change, and changing situations bring changes in which rules apply that day.

Is it legal (or moral) to hurt somebody? Depends on the situation. Most days, no; it isn't, but even when circumstances change, the rules themselves don't really change - there's just a change in "which rules apply". A good example is the armed shop owners on the rooftops mentioned earlier. Most days, that behavior would get them (or us) thrown in jail hard; but that day the situation caused a change in which rules were applicable, and which response was appropriate.

Principles/morals/ethics don't (or at least shouldn't) change. If our principles dictate protecting our family, that doesn't mean that the appropriate implementation of that principle won't be vastly different in one situation/circumstance than in another. The principle/rule/moral/ethic doesn't change; but the appropriate form of implementing that unchanging principle can change drastically.

[kirgi08]

Just noticed,great Sig Quake.'08. :wavey:

[glock39]

Best advice - don't do anything that violates the rules unless necessary. Also, warning shots that bounce off the pavement may be manslaughter/murder 1/2 if they hit/kill somebody. Just a consideration. You gotta do what is best for you.

Excellent advice and a good point about the danger of ricochets.

I am not an ammo expert, but there are thinly-jacketed "varmint" bullets available in some high power rifle calibers and frangible ammo can be found in common pistol calibers. These bullets tend to self-destruct as soon they hit anything, and so present a reduced risk of a bullet bouncing into something you didn't intend to hit. If you thought you might be holed up in a defensive position, it probably wouldn't hurt to carry a few of these rounds in your gear bag. Hopefully, if you had time to fire a warning shot, you'd also have time to load a round of this ammo into the chamber (backed up by the rest of the magazine with normal ammo, as warning shots don't always work). Try some out when you practice, to make sure the following "normal" bullets still feed properly in autoloaders. If you have a 223 or or other suitable high-power rifle, you might want to make self-destructing hollowpoints your normal load in urban areas anyway, to reduce the risk to bystanders.

[inzone]

I have a good video camera and I would video while the rest of my group draws a bead on them and keep filming and fire when they are in the act of attempting a forcible felony.....

[UneasyRider]

I have a good video camera and I would video while the rest of my group draws a bead on them and keep filming and fire when they are in the act of attempting a forcible felony.....

Good post! It's a really good idea to buy a home camera set up with a DVR too. You can get these for a song today. 8 exterior day/night cameras and a DVR for $300 on Woot last year.