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RussP
01-22-2012, 06:15
Customer shoots robbery suspect at SC Waffle Shop (http://www.wcnc.com/news/local/Police-Robber-killed-in-SC-Waffle-House-shooting-137826454.html)

Two guys came in the waffle shop, one armed. One customer, with a SC CWP, drew his weapon, tried to hold the two for police. The armed robber pointed his gun at the customer. Customer fired striking the bad guy in the head and body.

The second robber fled.

Another story reports the Sheriff said he was protecting the man and his family from possible retaliation.

jdavionic
01-22-2012, 07:18
Not much detail, nor is it expected to be out there at this point. He attempted to stop them without using his gun, one of the BGs refused, and the BG is now dead with two shots - one to the head and one to the body. Seems like the CCW holder did well to me.

steveksux
01-22-2012, 08:19
So the robber already had his gun in hand, had already drawn, and yet still lost to the CCWer who had him at gunpoint when he tried to shoot his way out?

Come to think of it, who usually wins when the cops have someone at gunpoint that decides to attempt to shoot their way out? I think the cops usually win that one also.

What does that say about a CCWer drawing from concealment and firing against a drawn gun during an armed robbery?

Maybe the action vs reaction isn't the be-all and end-all some make it out to be.
The lesson I take from this is you better have some sort of distraction to take advantage of if you plan on trying that, or clearly have no other option available.

But good job for the CCWer, from the preliminary results. Hell, sounds like a great job!

Randy

Misty02
01-22-2012, 08:33
It seems the customer did all the right things. :thumbsup:

Reading another story posted, the criminal was 2 hours into his 19th birthday. A shame that such a young life had to end that way, but if it was to be one filled with crime and harming others, might as well. At least it was not an innocent life that was taken and other innocent lives may have been saved.

.

steveksux
01-22-2012, 08:49
It seems the customer did all the right things. :thumbsup:

Reading another story posted, the criminal was 2 hours into his 19th birthday. A shame that such a young life had to end that way, but if it was to be one filled with crime and harming others, might as well. At least it was not an innocent life that was taken and other innocent lives may have been saved.

.well, let me be the first to say "Happy Birthday" to him, posthumously.. I hope he enjoyed all the gifts he received that day. Especially the last 2 hollow points.... Shame there wasn't time to gift wrap them. :rofl:

Hate to be so callous, a young man needlessly lost his life, after all. But considering he was responsible for the needlessness of his own loss, nobody else, and given there were no innocent lives lost, there just seems something ironic about the birthday angle.

Absolutely not some sort of snide remark about you, Misty, btw...

Randy

Misty02
01-22-2012, 09:00
well, let me be the first to say "Happy Birthday" to him, posthumously.. I hope he enjoyed all the gifts he received that day. Especially the last 2 hollow points.... Shame there wasn't time to gift wrap them. :rofl:

Hate to be so callous, a young man needlessly lost his life, after all. But considering he was responsible for the needlessness of his own loss, nobody else, and given there were no innocent lives lost, there just seems something ironic about the birthday angle.

Absolutely not some sort of snide remark about you, Misty, btw...

Randy

I know! I feel the same way, I just worded it a tad different. :supergrin:

porschedog
01-22-2012, 09:08
If that happened in South Florida, the local media would have spun it to make the BGs look like lost bible salesmen who were viciously attacked without provocation.

Good going by the CWP in SC. Let's hope the BGs family doesn't try to sue him for lost wages.

glockin-45
01-22-2012, 09:20
To each their own, this is some thing any one that carries needs to think about. But lets get real. I have a chp. I'm not a LEO, nor do i think myself to be a hero. If i were in there and it's being robbed and they leave, i'm a witness. If a shot is fired, i'm taking the guy out. this man's life was not threatened. And he's gonna shot a robber.:dunno:

BailRecoveryAgent
01-22-2012, 09:23
To each their own, this is some thing any one that carries needs to think about. But lets get real. I have a chp. I'm not a LEO, nor do i think myself to be a hero. If i were in there and it's being robbed and they leave, i'm a witness. If a shot is fired, i'm taking the guy out. this man's life was not threatened. And he's gonna shot a robber.:dunno:

:yawn:

I'm convinced there could be a story posted on GT about a ccw holder taking on a band of terrorists wearing bomb vests and carrying suitcase nukes, smoking them all with no innocents injured, and there still would be some that would say "how do we know they would have detonated the bombs, this man's life was not threatened".

ATW525
01-22-2012, 09:23
What does that say about a CCWer drawing from concealment and firing against a drawn gun during an armed robbery?


I would guess it would depend on whether the robber was expecting the CCWer to be armed and whether they had already resolved themselves to fire at the first sign of trouble.

NMG26
01-22-2012, 09:28
To each their own, this is some thing any one that carries needs to think about. But lets get real. I have a chp. I'm not a LEO, nor do i think myself to be a hero. If i were in there and it's being robbed and they leave, i'm a witness. If a shot is fired, i'm taking the guy out. this man's life was not threatened. And he's gonna shot a robber.:dunno:


You never know.

After robbing the place the thugs may have ordered everyone into the freezer. What are you going to do then?

glockin-45
01-22-2012, 09:41
You never know.

After robbing the place the thugs may have ordered everyone into the freezer. What are you going to do then?
That goes with out saying would be the same as the bg starts shooting.
if there gonna herd you off then your life is in extream danger. And i'd shoot the guy.

NMG26
01-22-2012, 09:48
That goes with out saying would be the same as the bg starts shooting.
if there gonna herd you off then your life is in extream danger. And i'd shoot the guy.


That is the point. A thug is actively pushing people around with a gun. His attention is not on you. While his attention is not on you, you have the advantage of drawing and turning the tables.

The armed citizen did just that.

He could have waited until a gun was being pointed at him and his, but it would have drastically reduced his chances of winning.

glockurai
01-22-2012, 09:58
That goes with out saying would be the same as the bg starts shooting.
if there gonna herd you off then your life is in extream danger. And i'd shoot the guy.

Really? So you'd give up the element of surprise and wait for the BGs to make the next move? Sir, respectfully, you may want to rethink your tactics.

Patchman
01-22-2012, 10:15
So the robber already had his gun in hand, had already drawn, and yet still lost to the CCWer...

What does that say about a CCWer drawing from concealment and firing against a drawn gun during an armed robbery?

But good job for the CCWer, from the preliminary results. Hell, sounds like a great job!

Randy

Seems like the CCWer realized he was in a situation where decisive action was necessary.

The CCWer didn't waffle over whether he should use his gun to only protect himself and his family...

The CCWer didn't waffle over whether he had the necessary self confidence in his skills to act...

The CCWer didn't waffle over whether (all of a sudden) his gun was too small...

The CCWer drew his gun from his pancake holster (an assumption on my part) and acted. Kudos.

Misty02
01-22-2012, 11:24
To each their own, this is some thing any one that carries needs to think about. But lets get real. I have a chp. I'm not a LEO, nor do i think myself to be a hero. If i were in there and it's being robbed and they leave, i'm a witness. If a shot is fired, i'm taking the guy out. this man's life was not threatened. And he's gonna shot a robber.:dunno:

How do you know this man’s life wasn’t threatened from such a short story? Have you seen an interview with the shooter? Is it possible that at some point these criminals were waiving their firearm around placing him and others at risk?

.

glockin-45
01-22-2012, 11:29
Really? So you'd give up the element of surprise and wait for the BGs to make the next move? Sir, respectfully, you may want to rethink your tactics.
i'm not giving up the element of surprise in that nobody knows i have a gun. Right! And i'm not going to armchair quarterback when i was'nt there. What i meant was i'm not going to shoot some one that robs a place. Thats what i meant by to each their own. Some would feel that just because they have a gun they should do something. Wrong! i'm not a cop. And each situation is going to be differant. Ican't speak for some one else and say if they feel their or someone elses life is in danger. I can only
hope that whoever finds themself in this situation uses good judgement
and has a good outcome. I'll lose no sleep over a low life getting what he deserves though.:yawn:

CDR_Glock
01-22-2012, 11:33
Kudos to the CCW citizen.

I hope he got a free meal.


Lifetime NRA Member

glockin-45
01-22-2012, 11:42
Kudos to the CCW citizen.

I hope he got a free meal.


Lifetime NRA Member
+1:supergrin:

wuvmyglock
01-22-2012, 11:53
To each their own, this is some thing any one that carries needs to think about. But lets get real. I have a chp. I'm not a LEO, nor do i think myself to be a hero. If i were in there and it's being robbed and they leave, i'm a witness. If a shot is fired, i'm taking the guy out. this man's life was not threatened. And he's gonna shot a robber.:dunno:

:yawn: One in every crowd.. There are two kinds of people.. Those who WATCH what happens..... Those who PREVENT things from happening... Stand and watch if you want... By the time you figure out what the heck is going on several things can happen.... 1) Victim could be shot... 2) You could be shot.. 3) I can put 3 rounds in the bad guy and prevent 1 and 2... Pretty clear to me..


As Gunney says: "Looks like he picked the wrong diner"

BrianJ786
01-22-2012, 11:55
Seems like the CCWer realized he was in a situation where decisive action was necessary.

The CCWer didn't waffle over whether he should use his gun to only protect himself and his family...

The CCWer didn't waffle over whether he had the necessary self confidence in his skills to act...

The CCWer didn't waffle over whether (all of a sudden) his gun was too small...

The CCWer drew his gun from his pancake holster (an assumption on my part) and acted. Kudos.

Now I'm hungry.

TXMary
01-22-2012, 11:59
It seems like some of the people missed THIS line in the story

"Authorities said the customer had a concealed weapon permit and tried to hold the two men at gunpoint until officers arrived, but that one suspect began to point his gun at the customer, who then fired shots. "

Misty02
01-22-2012, 12:02
i'm not giving up the element of surprise in that nobody knows i have a gun. Right! And i'm not going to armchair quarterback when i was'nt there. What i meant was i'm not going to shoot some one that robs a place. Thats what i meant by to each their own. Some would feel that just because they have a gun they should do something. Wrong! i'm not a cop. And each situation is going to be differant. Ican't speak for some one else and say if they feel their or someone elses life is in danger. I can only
hope that whoever finds themself in this situation uses good judgement
and has a good outcome. I'll lose no sleep over a low life getting what he deserves though.:yawn:

You stated with certainty that the manís life had not been threatened. My apologies if I incorrectly assumed that such a conclusion was reached from additional information that was not in the article.

I too would not get involved in a robbery where I know only property or money is at risk, even if said property and money is mine. Avoidance will always be my default, should that fail, Iíll work on evading. However, there are times you might have little choice but to engage. There are numerous robberies where the BG has shot or killed others (not just employees but patrons of the establishment) for giggles and laughs.

Here is one from my neck of the woods: http://www.palmbeachpost.com/local_news/content/local_news/epaper/2008/11/27/1126dunkindonutsshooting.html (http://www.palmbeachpost.com/local_news/content/local_news/epaper/2008/11/27/1126dunkindonutsshooting.html) If anyone there was armed and decided to just comply and pose no resistance, they quickly found out for themselves that was not exactly the best available option.

I donít know what I would actually do if faced with something similar; the one thing I know is that if I wait for their firearm to be aimed at me, it may be too late.

.

TBO
01-22-2012, 12:09
http://www2.wspa.com/news/2012/jan/21/2/one-suspect-dead-another-run-after-attempted-armed-ar-3086970/

Bad guys came in and proned everyone out at gunpoint (about 12 customers).

Certainly a situation that could put everyone in fear of great bodily harm or death.

Misty02
01-22-2012, 12:16
:yawn: One in every crowd.. There are two kinds of people.. Those who WATCH what happens..... Those who PREVENT things from happening... Stand and watch if you want... By the time you figure out what the heck is going on several things can happen.... 1) Victim could be shot... 2) You could be shot.. 3) I can put 3 rounds in the bad guy and prevent 1 and 2... Pretty clear to me..


As Gunney says: "Looks like he picked the wrong diner"

I can be both depending on the circumstances and the threat level I perceive to loved ones or myself. I am neither trained nor qualified to follow what a police officer would do. I am neither trained nor qualified to prevent a robbery from taking place. My limited training is geared toward increasing the odds of survival of my family and my own. I will not act beyond that scope.

Holding someone at gun point (even worse when there are multiple BGs) should not be considered as something easy. Can you imagine the level of concentration it takes to become nearly a mind reader and predict the personís next move? Judging by the article, they were still armed.

Criminals should bear in mind that armed citizens have no requirement to apprehend or hold them at gun point until the police arrives, they would be risking their lives in doing so. They are lucky to have encountered an armed citizen that was able to do so; at least one of them lived to talk about it.

.

Misty02
01-22-2012, 12:26
It seems like some of the people missed THIS line in the story

"Authorities said the customer had a concealed weapon permit and tried to hold the two men at gunpoint until officers arrived, but that one suspect began to point his gun at the customer, who then fired shots. "

:supergrin: We call that selective reading.

Although none of the stories I found provided details before the customer drew. He could have been attempting to stop a robbery, he could have been threatened by the BGís at one point, he could have just known people who comply donít always make it out unharmed. I have absolutely no clue. All I know is that he took action, no innocents were harmed and one BG will no longer be able to harm others. I donít need to know more than that. :)

.

RightGlock1
01-22-2012, 12:31
Seems like the CCWer realized he was in a situation where decisive action was necessary.

The CCWer didn't waffle over whether he should use his gun to only protect himself and his family...

The CCWer didn't waffle over whether he had the necessary self confidence in his skills to act...

The CCWer didn't waffle over whether (all of a sudden) his gun was too small...

The CCWer drew his gun from his pancake holster (an assumption on my part) and acted. Kudos.

Well, at least he followed the "dress code" for the location. :tongueout::faint:

Misty02
01-22-2012, 12:33
http://www2.wspa.com/news/2012/jan/21/2/one-suspect-dead-another-run-after-attempted-armed-ar-3086970/

Bad guys came in and proned everyone out at gunpoint (about 12 customers).

Certainly a situation that could put everyone in fear of great bodily harm or death.

This changes everything! And he was going to hold them until the police arrived and risk his life? Wow! :wow:

.

jastroud
01-22-2012, 12:48
http://www.goupstate.com/article/20120121/ARTICLES/120129934/1083/ARTICLES?Title=Deputies-Waffle-House-customer-shoots-and-kills-armed-robber

Looks like he used a .45 Glock. BG had a hi-point.

I am from Spartanburg County so this is a good thing if you as me. Article says he didn't have a record, but other sites have him getting pinched in 8/2011 for 3rd degree A&B.

thejellster05
01-22-2012, 12:53
If that happened in South Florida, the local media would have spun it to make the BGs look like lost bible salesmen who were viciously attacked without provocation.

Good going by the CWP in SC. Let's hope the BGs family doesn't try to sue him for lost wages.

You mean lost welfare checks right?

JuneyBooney
01-22-2012, 12:57
It sounds like the customer did good. Those Waffle House places stay open 24/7 so they are targeted a lot by robbers. It is good that nobody else was injured.

RussP
01-22-2012, 13:48
http://www.goupstate.com/article/20120121/ARTICLES/120129934/1083/ARTICLES?Title=Deputies-Waffle-House-customer-shoots-and-kills-armed-robber

Looks like he used a .45 Glock. BG had a hi-point.

I am from Spartanburg County so this is a good thing if you as me. Article says he didn't have a record, but other sites have him getting pinched in 8/2011 for 3rd degree A&B.From that story..." ďThe way you get shot by a concealed weapons permit holder is you point a gun at him,Ē the sheriff said."

glockin-45
01-22-2012, 15:24
Misty02, :wow:sheet. And we know things are not going to get better.

steveksux
01-22-2012, 16:11
If a shot is fired, i'm taking the guy out. this man's life was not threatened. And he's gonna shot a robber.:dunno:
Maybe you're not familiar with how armed robberies go. They have a gun. They want money. The reason it works is because generally they are either implying or expressly stating that they will kill you if you do not comply.

All their lives were threatened.

I don't disagree with letting them take the money and leave. I will do whatever I think has the greatest chance of the fewest innocent people getting hurt. The vast majority of robberies result in money lost and nobody hurt. And if you start shooting, he'll start shooting, and someone may well be hit on purpose, or by a stray shot. So I'm not suggesting the default option is to blast away, not by a long shot.

But make no mistake, the moment they walk in there with a gun to engage in a robbery, they are threatening everyone's lives, and they are fair game to be shot. Whether I do or not depends on the circumstances, whether I'm confident I can get it done with no loss of innocent life, whether shooting is the only option to survive (if he's started firing for instance) and therefore I have nothing to lose. It all depends on tactics and probabilities at that point.

If I give them my wallet, it doesn't make me a coward. If I shoot them, it doesn't make me a killer. If I happen to be unarmed and I gnaw off their hand to get the gun away, it doesn't make me a cannibal. I will do whatever I think gets the most people home safe. Not based on my ego or sense of machismo. I won't sacrifice innocent lives over property.

Randy

jastroud
01-22-2012, 16:15
From that story..." “The way you get shot by a concealed weapons permit holder is you point a gun at him,” the sheriff said."

Sheriff Chuck Wright is one of the good things about living in Spartanburg.

steveksux
01-22-2012, 17:15
Kudos to the CCW citizen.

I hope he got a free meal.


Lifetime NRA MemberI hope the Waffle House manager got him a free meal SOMEWHERE ELSE! :rofl:

Randy

MotorCityBear
01-22-2012, 17:18
Sheriff Chuck Wright has the right attitude toward crime today. I am sick of the ruthlessness of the criminals today. If more LEO's, presecutors, Judges had the same attitude toward crime, I believe we would not see the levels of crime we see today. The thugs that commit crimes today do not fear the police, jails or even getting killed. They think nothing of killing anyone in their way.

I hope I am never in the situation the Waffle House customer was in, but if it ever happens, I hope I have the good sense, courage and ability to do what he did.

GT4494
01-22-2012, 17:33
One of the nice things about South Carolina (and there are many more) is the way the laws are written concerning defending ones self.

The legislature has made sure to include that a person can act as a proxie for an individual that is in imminent danger. In this case just the act of the BG threatening a person while brandishing a weapon while committing robbery justifies the use of deadly force by a by-stander.

http://www.scstatehouse.gov/sess116_2005-2006/bills/4301.htm

Section 16-11-440. (A) A person is presumed to have a reasonable fear of imminent peril of death or great bodily injury to himself or another person when using deadly force that is intended or likely to cause death or great bodily injury to another person if the person:

(C) A person who is not engaged in an unlawful activity and who is attacked in another place where he has a right to be, including, but not limited to, his place of business, has no duty to retreat and has the right to stand his ground and meet force with force, including deadly force, if he reasonably believes it is necessary to prevent death or great bodily injury to himself or another person or to prevent the commission of a violent crime as defined in Section 16-1-60.

damnyankee20
01-22-2012, 19:58
Sheriff Chuck Wright has the right attitude toward crime today. I am sick of the ruthlessness of the criminals today. If more LEO's, presecutors, Judges had the same attitude toward crime, I believe we would not see the levels of crime we see today. The thugs that commit crimes today do not fear the police, jails or even getting killed. They think nothing of killing anyone in their way.

I hope I am never in the situation the Waffle House customer was in, but if it ever happens, I hope I have the good sense, courage and ability to do what he did.

I agree. I too, live outside the Motor City and there is Evil in this world that has no conscience about murdering one of our LEOs or we common Joes. That took alot of courage for the CWP holder to protect himself, his family, and the other innocents at that restaurant.

The way I look at it: there's a little less Evil in the world today and one less dirtbag on the taxpayer dole (jail, lawyer, free room and board in jail for the next several years where odds are 75% he'd get out to rinse & repeat).

glockin-45
01-22-2012, 20:40
Maybe you're not familiar with how armed robberies go. They have a gun. They want money. The reason it works is because generally they are either implying or expressly stating that they will kill you if you do not comply.

All their lives were threatened.

I don't disagree with letting them take the money and leave. I will do whatever I think has the greatest chance of the fewest innocent people getting hurt. The vast majority of robberies result in money lost and nobody hurt. And if you start shooting, he'll start shooting, and someone may well be hit on purpose, or by a stray shot. So I'm not suggesting the default option is to blast away, not by a long shot.

But make no mistake, the moment they walk in there with a gun to engage in a robbery, they are threatening everyone's lives, and they are fair game to be shot. Whether I do or not depends on the circumstances, whether I'm confident I can get it done with no loss of innocent life, whether shooting is the only option to survive (if he's started firing for instance) and therefore I have nothing to lose. It all depends on tactics and probabilities at that point.

If I give them my wallet, it doesn't make me a coward. If I shoot them, it doesn't make me a killer. If I happen to be unarmed and I gnaw off their hand to get the gun away, it doesn't make me a cannibal. I will do whatever I think gets the most people home safe. Not based on my ego or sense of machismo. I won't sacrifice innocent lives over property.

Randy I've lived in LA,CA. all my life. Believe me i know about robberies. You say they imply that they will kill you, well yes they do.
But were still all armchair after the fact what we would do. what if the gun
was not real? what if when he tried to stop the guy it didnt end this way and there was a shoot out and innocent people shot. to each there own.
I'm just glad it ended with nobody hurt but the bad guy. Period.

Mayhem like Me
01-22-2012, 20:53
Sheriff Chuck Wright has the right attitude toward crime today. I am sick of the ruthlessness of the criminals today. If more LEO's, presecutors, Judges had the same attitude toward crime, I believe we would not see the levels of crime we see today. The thugs that commit crimes today do not fear the police, jails or even getting killed. They think nothing of killing anyone in their way.

I hope I am never in the situation the Waffle House customer was in, but if it ever happens, I hope I have the good sense, courage and ability to do what he did.


In the conservative areas in the south most all the cops and ALL the Sheriffs think that way...

Mayhem like Me
01-22-2012, 20:57
I've lived in LA,CA. all my life. Believe me i know about robberies. You say they imply that they will kill you, well yes they do.
But were still all armchair after the fact what we would do. what if the gun
was not real? what if when he tried to stop the guy it didnt end this way and there was a shoot out and innocent people shot. to each there own.
I'm just glad it ended with nobody hurt but the bad guy. Period.

We had a string of Waffle house robberies in Metro Atlanta, they killed a security guard the night we caught them. EVERY time an armed robber demands something by force or threat they should be met with deadly force resistance.. I bet that would have an impact on violent crime.

jastroud
01-22-2012, 21:18
Here is the rap sheet on his partner in crime...great resume built in part by our wonderful criminal justice system.

CRAIG KENNETH JOWAN 11/09/82 B M IN JAIL

Street Address: 408 ABNER RD APT A36
City/State/Zip: SPARTANBURG, SC 29301
Race / Gender: BLACK, NON-HISPANIC / MALE
Date of Birth: 11/09/82
Current Age: 29
Height: 5'06"
Weight: 135



Booking Number: 07-15198
Arrest Agency: PROBATION AND PAROLE Booking Time / Date: 13:25:07 09/24/07
Arrest Officer: BYRD R Release Time / Date: 01:36:42 10/01/07

Statute Offense Court Warrant Bond
24-21-0680 3329 PAROLE VIOLATION GENERAL SESSIONS COURT Y42071011


Booking Number: 09-18166
Arrest Agency: SPARTANBURG PUB SAFETY DEPT Booking Time / Date: 23:59:15 11/20/09
Arrest Officer: HILLERS M Release Time / Date: 01:39:47 12/07/09

Statute Offense Court Warrant Bond
16-17-0725 1223 FALSE INFORMATION TO POLICE SPARTANBURG MUNICIPAL COURT 69075EK 2,000.00
24-21-0680 3329 PAROLE VIOLATION GENERAL SESSIONS COURT Y42090016
GSCT BW GS CT BENCH WARRANT GENERAL SESSIONS COURT GSBWK183563


Booking Number: 09-19905
Arrest Agency: DETENTION FACILITY Booking Time / Date: 15:11:12 12/30/09
Arrest Officer: CEASOR Release Time / Date: 07:09:08 01/02/10

Statute Offense Court Warrant Bond
00-00-0000 RFC RETURN FOR COURT GENERAL SESSIONS COURT witness


Booking Number: 11-11891
Arrest Agency: SPARTANBURG PUB SAFETY DEPT Booking Time / Date: 01:34:07 08/15/11
Arrest Officer: ODOM Release Time / Date: 19:48:32 09/14/11

Statute Offense Court Warrant Bond
16-23-0020 0044 UNLAWFUL CARRYING OF PISTOL GENERAL SESSIONS COURT M755302 3,000.00
44-53-0375 3009 POSS METH/COCAINE BASE

Warp
01-22-2012, 21:21
We had a string of Waffle house robberies in Metro Atlanta, they killed a security guard the night we caught them. EVERY time an armed robber demands something by force or threat they should be met with deadly force resistance.. I bet that would have an impact on violent crime.

This.

Gunnut 45/454
01-22-2012, 21:29
glockin-45
We understand perfectly - you will be on the sideline when the game is played! Goucha!
Armed robber has already implied deadly intent by using a firearm to commit a crime- Threat is real to all in the place - therefore I don't have to abide by his demands and am perfectly legal in shooting him on the spot! End of story! You keep yours holstered while real men and women take them out.:wavey:

emtp2rn
01-22-2012, 21:34
This isn't about being a LEO or hero, this is about a man protecting his family. If I'm by myself I may let it play out, if my children are with me, I'm more protective then a bear over her cubs. If there is a BG with a gun between my family and the door, that is an immediate threat.


To each their own, this is some thing any one that carries needs to think about. But lets get real. I have a chp. I'm not a LEO, nor do i think myself to be a hero. If i were in there and it's being robbed and they leave, i'm a witness. If a shot is fired, i'm taking the guy out. this man's life was not threatened. And he's gonna shot a robber.:dunno:

BailRecoveryAgent
01-22-2012, 21:53
EVERY time an armed robber demands something by force or threat they should be met with deadly force resistance.. I bet that would have an impact on violent crime.

This needed to be quoted one more time in bold for truth.

This isn't about being a LEO or hero, this is about a man protecting his family. If I'm by myself I may let it play out, if my children are with me, I'm more protective then a bear over her cubs. If there is a BG with a gun between my family and the door, that is an immediate threat.

Yep, its sad when gun owners think that because they're not a leo that that means they shouldn't get involved. No I don't believe that guns blazin' will necessarily be the right move every time, but in this waffle house incident it seemed to be quite appropriate. I sometimes wonder what it would take for the "I'll just be on the sidelines and be a good witness" types to actually pull their gun in defense of themselves or their family.

ZombieKing
01-22-2012, 22:17
I've lived in LA,CA. all my life. Believe me i know about robberies. You say they imply that they will kill you, well yes they do.
But were still all armchair after the fact what we would do. what if the gun
was not real?

That's even more of a reason to shoot him.

If you can't use the right tools for the job you shouldn't be in the armed robbery business. :supergrin:
Plus real or not just the fact that he's in there waving a weapon around threatening the customers is more the enough justification to give him a free dinner of lead.

what if when he tried to stop the guy it didnt end this way and there was a shoot out and innocent people shot. to each there own.
I'm just glad it ended with nobody hurt but the bad guy. Period.

Life sucks. You want to sit on the sidelines then of course feel free.

I'm shooting.

glockin-45
01-22-2012, 23:51
glockin-45
We understand perfectly - you will be on the sideline when the game is played! Goucha!
Armed robber has already implied deadly intent by using a firearm to commit a crime- Threat is real to all in the place - therefore I don't have to abide by his demands and am perfectly legal in shooting him on the spot! End of story! You keep yours holstered while real men and women take them out.:wavey:
Your my Hero.

glockin-45
01-23-2012, 00:00
This needed to be quoted one more time in bold for truth.



Yep, its sad when gun owners think that because they're not a leo that that means they shouldn't get involved. No I don't believe that guns blazin' will necessarily be the right move every time, but in this waffle house incident it seemed to be quite appropriate. I sometimes wonder what it would take for the "I'll just be on the sidelines and be a good witness" types to actually pull their gun in defense of themselves or their family.
If i were just be on the sidelines and be a good witness,i'd not be ccw.

glockin-45
01-23-2012, 00:03
This needed to be quoted one more time in bold for truth.



Yep, its sad when gun owners think that because they're not a leo that that means they shouldn't get involved. No I don't believe that guns blazin' will necessarily be the right move every time, but in this waffle house incident it seemed to be quite appropriate. I sometimes wonder what it would take for the "I'll just be on the sidelines and be a good witness" types to actually pull their gun in defense of themselves or their family.
Did not mean it to come across that way.

RussP
01-23-2012, 04:33
It is all about what TBO said, what is in my sigline...Negative Behavior rises to the level it is tolerated.

Bren
01-23-2012, 04:56
So the robber already had his gun in hand, had already drawn, and yet still lost to the CCWer who had him at gunpoint when he tried to shoot his way out?

Come to think of it, who usually wins when the cops have someone at gunpoint that decides to attempt to shoot their way out? I think the cops usually win that one also.

What does that say about a CCWer drawing from concealment and firing against a drawn gun during an armed robbery?

It's all about the difference between action and reaction and the low preparation level of criminals. AS far as preparation, "the cops" pretty much always win, but even 1 on 1 they do tend to win whether they have the advantage or not, because of training and preparation. Winning a gunfight from your holster against a person with gun in hand is pretty common - probably because the CCWer doesn't have a cause to draw his gun until the criminal already has one in hand. It seems like most CCW shooting stories start that way.

Bren
01-23-2012, 05:00
To each their own, this is some thing any one that carries needs to think about. But lets get real. I have a chp. I'm not a LEO, nor do i think myself to be a hero. If i were in there and it's being robbed and they leave, i'm a witness. If a shot is fired, i'm taking the guy out. this man's life was not threatened. And he's gonna shot a robber.:dunno:

You know, when I was a cop, one of the things my father taught me (now-retired state trooper) was that "too little force, too late, will get you killed." You seem to be aiming for, at least, the too late part.

As others have said, your best chance to win is to draw when his attention isn't on you. If you wait until he has started shooting (a) you just let somebody get shot (you may not care, if it's not your own family) and (b) you have little to no chance of drawing and firing once he has started shooting, since the movement and decision making need for him to shoot you are now much shorter.

If a shot is fired, you're not "taking the guy out." Even if you've still got what it take to draw instead of run (much harder with shots being fired) you're not going to make it. As far as, "this man's life was not threatened" - if that's your understanding of the law, study some more. A lack of legal knowkledge is a common cause of people using too little force, too late.

Bradysmmrs
01-23-2012, 05:22
It pleases me to know that when the time came for this gentleman to act that he was ready. If I am ever in a similar situation I just hope my training will pay off. Now I am just assuming, but I dont think when he put on his gun that morning he thought "Im going to kill someone today", and to that fact my prayers go out to him, for having to deal with the trauma of his actions.

Misty02
01-23-2012, 05:29
I've lived in LA,CA. all my life. Believe me i know about robberies. You say they imply that they will kill you, well yes they do.
But were still all armchair after the fact what we would do. what if the gun
was not real? what if when he tried to stop the guy it didnt end this way and there was a shoot out and innocent people shot. to each there own.
I'm just glad it ended with nobody hurt but the bad guy. Period.

glockin-45, sharing of these type of stories (in my opinion) is twofold: (1) It provides us with real life events of how others have handled life threatening situations, how they have succeeded or how they have failed (2) We get to review what was actually done (or not done) to learn how things could have been done differently to achieve better results.

Short of our own personal experiences (hopefully few, if any, of us not in law enforcement has many of those) how else do you learn? How do we learn that full compliance with criminals doesnít mean we will not be harmed? By reading other cases where that is what has happened. Knowledge of the possible risks versus reward is usually attained by the collection of data and information, that is what news stories such as this provide.

So what if the gun is not real? What if we are the reason there is a shoot-out and innocents are harmed? What if we miss and we are the reason an innocent person is harmed? What if we take action and are shot and killed because of it? Those are all valid questions and concerned. How can you possibly address most of them to ensure the best possible outcome? By getting as much training as we possibly can, by being observant, by learning about human behavior, etc. There are no guarantees in life. Of the concerns I started this paragraph with the only I donít give a hoot about is the first one. A person that leads me to believe that my life or the life of others is in danger deserves that I address the threat with lethal force to increase our odds of survival. If they were bluffing, tough cookie!

Why do we carry? We believe that it provides us with a tool known to be effective against those that place our life at risk. Do we take enormous risks to ourselves and others if we use such a tool? Definitely! Not doing so could likely cost our lives though.

Where do most of us live? If we live in a city that is highly populated odds are high that if we ever need to use our firearms there will be other innocent people around (unless we have a habit of walking through alleys where only criminals are found). Training and practice can help reduce the possibility of us making an error, but it doesnít guarantee it either.

Hopefully, the day we decided to arm ourselves we took some time to evaluate all the possible risks involved. My question to you, if you are in a parking lot with others around where a criminal threatens your life and you have the opportunity to draw and shoot, do you abstain from doing so due to risk to everyone else or do you do what is needed to protect your life (or that of a loved one)? This is a very tough question to answer and one we must answer to ourselves. Even if you survive there is always the possibility you can end up in prison for the rest of your life. Is the risk of death or life in prison worth the attempt to save your life or the life of another?

I do not care if the gun was not real. I do not care if the gun was not functional, I do not care if the gun was unloaded. I do care if Iím the reason innocents are harmed. I do care if my actions (or lack thereof) increase the possibility loved ones are harmed. To mitigate what ďIĒ consider important I train and practice as much as I can. I observe people. I leave places I have every right to be in if I feel things are not right. I donít carry exclusively to eliminate the threat posed by a criminal, I carry for when avoidance and evading the conflict were not enough and Iím faced with no other alternative, it is the last card in my deck.

For the situation in this article and the link I posted of what took place in Dunkin Donuts, it appears that there was little choice but to play that card.

We are not armchair quarterbacking, we are trying to learn from the experience of others without us being in the same life altering situation which is always preferable than learning the hard way.

.

uhlawpup
01-23-2012, 05:35
Before we all go "holier than thou," let me just say two things.

1. I hope the shooter has access to counseling. Even justified taking of a human life takes its toll. Yes, I know this from personal experience.

2. None of you, not one of you, know what you will really do in a similar situation until you are actually in it.

Misty02
01-23-2012, 05:58
Before we all go "holier than thou," let me just say two things.

1. I hope the shooter has access to counseling. Even justified taking of a human life takes its toll. Yes, I know this from personal experience.

2. None of you, not one of you, know what you will really do in a similar situation until you are actually in it.


You are correct where Iím concerned. I have never (and pray I never am) been faced with having to make such a decision nor do I know how I will ultimately react. Sadly, others here (you included) have been there. We can be armed without a basic understanding of what is involved or we can learn from those of you that have had to face what I consider among the most difficult decision I might ever have to make. Given the choices, I opt for the latter.

.

jastroud
01-23-2012, 06:16
Here is what I know. When I heard of that story, I went to the Spartanburg paper online site to get more information. I say no less than 4 other stories related to armed robbery/home invasion, and this is a "small" town. It's a dangerous world out there friends and the devil is having a field day.

repo4sale
01-23-2012, 06:46
One in every crowd.. There are two kinds of people.. Those who WATCH what happens..... Those who PREVENT things from happening... Stand and watch if you want... By the time you figure out what the heck is going on several things can happen.... 1) Victim could be shot... 2) You could be shot.. 3) I can put 3 rounds in the bad guy and prevent 1 and 2... Pretty clear to me..

I AGREE! WITNESS (watch) or HERO (prevent/shoot). Your finger, eyes training and fast reaction will determine if you can handle the 1-2-3 targets... in Orange County Southern California, a diamond dealer decided to eliminate the problem:

http://www.sanclementetimes.com/view/full_story/14492143/article-Jewelry-Store-Robbers-Identified--Fatal-Shootings-Appear-Justified--Updated-with-Photos-?instance=eye_on_sc

I'm a very FAST FAST DRAW, be it Pepper Spray or Glock via SURPRISE on any BAD GUY. I can't recall how many time I have DRAW-n on BG! Never shot them, but I did Pepper Spray 3 BG and 2 had to go to the hospital because I "emptied" the canister!!! The Pistol shoot training in the 1990s Recession & this 2010's recessions PUSHED me to "participate in HIGH STRESS PISTOL SHOOTS"... The lowest life in USA turns to crime for $$$ and I'll be ready with all the DRAWS I have under my belt.... ALWAYS SURPRISE THE BAD GUY!!!

Gunnut 45/454
01-23-2012, 10:23
glockin-45
Nope I'm no hero , just a man who will not be a victim EVER! :supergrin:

glockin-45
01-23-2012, 12:30
glockin-45
Nope I'm no hero , just a man who will not be a victim EVER! :supergrin:

And i hope that stays true.:wavey:

steveksux
01-23-2012, 19:34
I've lived in LA,CA. all my life. Believe me i know about robberies. You say they imply that they will kill you, well yes they do.which means everyone's life WAS threatened.

My point.

But were still all armchair after the fact what we would do. what if the gun was not real?Who cares? What difference does that make? If you don't know its fake at the time, you treat it as if it is real unless you are positive it is not.

what if when he tried to stop the guy it didnt end this way and there was a shoot out and innocent people shot. to each there own.
I'm just glad it ended with nobody hurt but the bad guy. Period.All good reasons to be careful and prudent in what you decide to do. If you noticed, I did say the exact same thing. Sometimes shooting is not the best option.

Look the intent here is not to beat you up. You stated the mans life was not threatened and that affects your decision whether to shoot or not. You were very wrong about that. Everyone's life was indeed threatened in that scenario. Talking through these scenarios exposes errors such as that, so they can be corrected. Better to make that mistake here than in a real robbery.

That's what this is about. Not chest thumping.

Randy

Lobo
01-24-2012, 06:08
I've lived in LA,CA. all my life. Believe me i know about robberies. You say they imply that they will kill you, well yes they do.
But were still all armchair after the fact what we would do. what if the gun
was not real? what if when he tried to stop the guy it didnt end this way and there was a shoot out and innocent people shot. to each there own.
I'm just glad it ended with nobody hurt but the bad guy. Period.

How do you plan on finding out/knowing if the gun is real or fake if you were in a similar situation?

Do you know about ability, opportunity, and jeopardy? You might want to look them up.

A6Gator
01-24-2012, 07:50
The CCWer drew his gun from his pancake holster (an assumption on my part) and acted. Kudos.

Pancake holster, waffle house... Excellent! :rofl: