Reoccurring thought about good/bad shoot vs. unarmed suspect [Archive] - Glock Talk

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GuitarSlinger66
01-22-2012, 17:50
I keep having these reoccurring thoughts about a good/bad shoot. Normally I wouldn't post - but... it's been eating my lunch. I live in Indiana (if that helps anyone). Maybe you can give some input, maybe not. Here's the (hypothetical) scenario:

Road range incident - More than likely me trying to pass someone else and they get PO'ed and try and follow me. The reason isn't too important.

Road rage leads to increase in adrenaline.

I pull into parking lot - Mejier, gas station, etc. Didn't call 911 because I'm too busy driving - (manual transmission - plus obvious distraction from trying to evade).

Other driver, (suspect), approaches me on foot - quickly. Obviously pissed, full of adrenaline and shouting - something along the lines of "I"m gonna f---- you up," "Let's settle this." "What the F---- do you think you're doing..." You get the picture.

I open door, draw my CCW weapon, point it at him and command a "STOP!" He continues and I essentially shoot a (what appears to be) unarmed man behind cover. Do I have all the advantages? Yes. Isn't that the point?

You can obviously modify the situation to other realistic incidents involving something as common as road rage. Another plausible scenario would be getting blocked in traffic and he approaches vehicle - or gets out in front of you - AS you are blocked in - leaving you only enough room to repeat the same scenario as at the "parking lot" = open door and barricade with weapon trained on him ready to fire.

My main defense (and I'm not proud to admit)? I can't fight worth a ****. Most people can't and I really don't want to risk my life on it. Who knows what hypothetical suspect has on him or what he is on.

Thoughts? Much appreciated!

NEOH212
01-22-2012, 18:02
Scenario 1: You probably would be charged with murder for shooting a unarmed person.

Scenario 2: Depending on the circumstances, this MAY be defensible depending on the circumstances. If your barricaded in the vehicle, and your NOT the aggressor, and the perp starts to come into the locked vehicle, then maybe. It would likely be more defensible if the perp had a weapon of sorts. I.E. tire iron, baseball bat, knife, gun, ect.

I would try to get out of the situation. I don't know that I would draw my gun, but I would certainly have my hand on it out of view. Both of these scenarios have all the ingredients to land you in jail in a hurry. Be careful!

Edited to add that if your blocked in traffic, that would be a really lousy place for a shoot out don't you think? If your left with no choice then you have to do what you have to do. You have to make the decision at that point in time if your life is in eminent danger or if your in danger of seriously bodily harm and weigh your options carefully.

Sam Spade
01-22-2012, 18:07
It sounds like youre discovering that the gun isn't the one-size-fits-all magic tailsman that some think it to be. That's good; it's not. There's a huge sea of grey between the time to talk and the time to shoot. You need to learn to fill it.

Neither the law nor decency require you to give up advantages or take a beating. What they *do* require is that you respond with force that is proportional to the threat you face.

Time for more tools in the toolbox, bottom line and that simple.

cowboy1964
01-22-2012, 18:15
My initial thought is if you open the door while someone is approaching you and you were obviously aware of ill intent by that person then that would come across to a jury as you looking for a confrontation, or at the very least not trying hard enough to avoid one.

xmanhockey7
01-22-2012, 18:46
Murder or Self Defense, You decide - YouTube

Why You Need A Gun - YouTube

Both these videos show similar situations you are talking about.

GuitarSlinger66
01-22-2012, 18:49
Well again - if he continues coming towards me and I can't escape (running away isn't an option - turning your back to him are you crazy?!) - WHILE I have a gun drawn on him, isn't his intent obvious? If he puts his hands up and backs off - situation resolved and well go home. But as I mentioned, adrenaline is kicked in and this guy is nuts - and wants to kick my ass. God knows if he starts on me he'll probably win (anyone who wants to pick a fight probably has had more experience than me - someone who has never been in a proper fight).

I'm sure this question of grey area has come up to many of you. And I'm sure many have wondered - well what if hedoes keep coming at me, even thought I'm pointing a gun at him. Will he attack me - unarmed as he appears, get my gun, and kill me?

liberty addict
01-22-2012, 19:19
Well again - if he continues coming towards me and I can't escape (running away isn't an option - turning your back to him are you crazy?!) - WHILE I have a gun drawn on him, isn't his intent obvious? If he puts his hands up and backs off - situation resolved and well go home. But as I mentioned, adrenaline is kicked in and this guy is nuts - and wants to kick my ass. God knows if he starts on me he'll probably win (anyone who wants to pick a fight probably has had more experience than me - someone who has never been in a proper fight).

I'm sure this question of grey area has come up to many of you. And I'm sure many have wondered - well what if hedoes keep coming at me, even thought I'm pointing a gun at him. Will he attack me - unarmed as he appears, get my gun, and kill me?

No question, if someone like that is coming at you even though you have a gun pointed at them, then they are very dangerous (OR they think you don't have what it takes to shoot them) --- if you do shoot you need to articulate why you felt your life was threatened. Someone who isn't afraid of a gun -- dangerous, go that way.

dosei
01-22-2012, 19:30
Here is a fair bit of good info, take some time and listen to it all...

Massad Ayoob - Judicious Use of Force. Part [1] - YouTube
Massad Ayoob - Judicious Use of Force. Part [2] - YouTube
Massad Ayoob - Judicious Use of Force. Part [3] - YouTube
Massad Ayoob - Judicious Use of Force. Part [4] - YouTube

Sam Spade nailed it, a gun is not the "one tool that fixes everything". It is one tool with a very, very narrow scope of use. For starters, get yourself set-up for hands-free calling.

heehaw
01-22-2012, 20:10
It seems now days everyone is afraid to get their tail whipped. getting you butt kicked and getting killed are two different things. you gotta decided the level of threat and be prepared to respond. I put emphasis on being prepared. If you don't have any hand to hand combat skills, you better get some help.

ATW525
01-22-2012, 20:38
Unless you see a gun, why get out of the car at all? Lock the doors, roll up the windows and call 911. Unless you drive a convertible or something similar, you're reasonably safe from an unarmed man. If he retrieves a weapon, drive off if you can or do whatever else you need to do to stay safe if you can't.

ETA: Of course, if you do see a gun and are blocked in, then get the freak out of the car! A stationary vehicle is a death trap when somebody is shooting at you.

GuitarSlinger66
01-22-2012, 20:48
Lots of good info. I'm tearing into the Ayoob videos.

What I was essentially trying to extract a debate about was a hypothetical where I'm going about my business and someone approaches me is determined to mess me up - and my options list gets fairly short. I'm not talking about being robbed - I'd gladly give you my wallet at gunpoint.. Nor am I talking about home invasions. I'm talking about being approached with the intent to cause serious bodily harm - and my only real defense is deadly force. Think UFC fighter-looking guy coming at you wanting to kick your ass - and you're already armed. What do you think he's going to do? Permanent brain damage? End up in a wheelchair? Use your weapon against you?

I'm not looking for a one-size fits all response - but just some alternative perspectives on this. I'm sure you can understand.

Thanks again.

Dexters
01-22-2012, 20:50
Pepper Spray / Bear Spray - easy to have in your car.

Options are a good thing.

So is originality.
Skip to 2:50
the new sheriff scene from blazing saddles - YouTube

tc2129
01-22-2012, 21:16
Funny you posted this. I will post what happened just a few hours ago to me and my girlfriend.
Just came down to Gainesville tonight for a doctors appointment in the morning my gf has at Shands. Checked into our hotel and decided to go get something to eat and grab some items at Wal-Mart.

While leaving the hotel parking lot I noticed a guy on a scooter coming out of a gas station, didn't pay too much attention to him until he almost pulled out in front of me, he braked hard and almost tipped his scooter over. Again, didn't really think too much of it. I pull up to a red light at a busy intersection. My girlfriend asks me to spray the winshield because her side is dirty. As I am doing this, I notice his headlight coming up my right side. Again, didn't think anything about it. He pulls up to the light in front of me to make a right turn (I'm turning left) I do take notice when I see him put the kickstand down and get off the scooter. He then gets off the scooter and screams at us about purposely spraying him with the windshield sprayer. Lots of cussing, lots of threaths of violence. He starts approaching the passenger side of our vehicle and gets up to my GF's window.

At this point, my hand goes on my .38 I have IWB. He gets up to the window, and my weapon comes out of the holster, but out of view of him. At this point he steps away from the window a few steps but continues to yell and curse. I don't know if my hand movement clued him in to what I was doing, but again, I never raised the weapon up to his view.

I am unable to go foward because of the heavy traffic. He continues yelling how he is going to beat me and yelling for me to get out of the car. He steps back to his scooter, so I am thinking he is going to leave, but he gets back off the scooter and approaches the front of the car, raises his left leg and states he is going to kick my headlight out. I again tell him sorry, didn't purposely spray him, but he continues to curse and tell me to get out the car so he can "punch me in my mouth."
I now hear another guy yelling from the sidewalk, so turn quickly to see another guy coming from across the street from the gas station. I'm thinking this might be his friend and am now looking to just run the red light and get out of this mess. This second guy was not a friend but just someone that heard the commotion and asked if he was Ok. I believe the second guy thought we were involved in an accident.
After the second guy came to the sidewalk, the scooter driver went back to his scooter ,called me some choice words, and drove away.
I waited for the light to finally turn green, which seemd like it took forever and went to dinner and discussed this whole thing with the gf. I never was able to get to my cellphone to call 911. One, it was in my left front jeans pocket, so I would have difficulty getting it out while seated, and two, I did not want to take my eyes off the guy at the passenger window.
Things my GF and I discussed about this incident:
Call 911 and report it. The whole thing took her by suprise because it happened so fast, so she didn't think to grab her phone while he was screaming. I couldn't get my phone right away. Should have called after the incident, I will if this ever occurs again.
Don't escalate the incident, We only said sorry to him during this encounter. Kept the doors locked and never once thought of exiting the vehicle.
Have a way out, we couldn't run the light or run him over, so we only could sit there until he left or the light changed
Be prepared for an incident escalation- I kept the weapon out of sight, but was ready to employ it had he tried to enter the vehicle or break the window on my girlfriends side.
Always have a weapon.

Sorry this is so long, hope it makes sense. About the only thing I would do differently is call 911 as soon as this started or as soon as he drove off.

ATW525
01-22-2012, 22:06
Lots of good info. I'm tearing into the Ayoob videos.

What I was essentially trying to extract a debate about was a hypothetical where I'm going about my business and someone approaches me is determined to mess me up - and my options list gets fairly short. I'm not talking about being robbed - I'd gladly give you my wallet at gunpoint.. Nor am I talking about home invasions. I'm talking about being approached with the intent to cause serious bodily harm - and my only real defense is deadly force. Think UFC fighter-looking guy coming at you wanting to kick your ass - and you're already armed. What do you think he's going to do? Permanent brain damage? End up in a wheelchair? Use your weapon against you?

I'm not looking for a one-size fits all response - but just some alternative perspectives on this. I'm sure you can understand.

Thanks again.

If a there is a considerable size difference, and/or you know that guy is a UFC fighter or somebody else with considerable ability to inflict physical harm, one can argue a disparity of force. Just remember that your actions will judged according to the reasonable person standard based on the information you had available to you at the time.

xmanhockey7
01-23-2012, 00:02
As far as I'm concerned every person has a weapon and is a black belt in every martial art unless I know otherwise.

TDC20
01-23-2012, 01:09
Pepper Spray / Bear Spray - easy to have in your car.

Options are a good thing.

+1 There are plenty of small and effective OC sprays out there. If he's unarmed, and you can't leave, call 911 and sit back and wait for him to do something stupid, like break your window. Then give him a shot of pepper spray in the face. It's better than trying to beat a murder charge in court.

NEOH212
01-23-2012, 04:38
Murder or Self Defense, You decide - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NoALOGnl76A)

Why You Need A Gun - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8W91EWQv4Fc)

Both these videos show similar situations you are talking about.


Gee, I think a few more cops need to pile on top of that guy in the first video.

Can we say, "OVER REACTION" :upeyes:

Video 1. It looked like self defense to me and I'm glad to hear he was acquitted.

Video 2. I would say the person in the car would have been justified to shoot when the jerk came to the driver side window with the tire iron.

jimski1510
01-23-2012, 05:07
i'm not sure about this, check your laws where you live, but in florida we have the castle law & stand your ground. castle law protects you in your home , in your car, & a patio enclosed with roof over it & even a tent. so if someone trys to get in any of these enclosures you have the right to defend your self. like i said i'm not sure about this..... jim

bustedknee
01-23-2012, 05:36
JOHNNY CASH LYRICS

"Don't Take Your Guns To Town"

A young cowboy named Billy Joe grew restless on the farm
A boy filled with wonderlust who really meant no harm
He changed his clothes and shined his boots
And combed his dark hair down
And his mother cried as he walked out

[Chorus]
Don't take your guns to town son
Leave your guns at home Bill
Don't take your guns to town

He laughed and kissed his mom
And said your Billy Joe's a man
I can shoot as quick and straight as anybody can
But I wouldn't shoot without a cause
I'd gun nobody down
But she cried again as he rode away

[Chorus]
Don't take your guns to town son
Leave your guns at home Bill
Don't take your guns to town

He sang a song as on he rode
His guns hung at his hips
He rode into a cattle town
A smile upon his lips
He stopped and walked into a bar
And laid his money down
But his mother's words echoed again

[Chorus]
Don't take your guns to town son
Leave your guns at home Bill
Don't take your guns to town

He drank his first strong liquor then to calm his shaking hand
And tried to tell himself he had become a man
A dusty cowpoke at his side began to laugh him down
And he heard again his mothers words

[Chorus]
Don't take your guns to town son
Leave your guns at home Bill
Don't take your guns to town

Filled with rage then
Billy Joe reached for his gun to draw
But the stranger drew his gun and fired
Before he even saw
As Billy Joe fell to the floor
The crowd all gathered 'round
And wondered at his final words

[Chorus]
Don't take your guns to town son
Leave your guns at home Bill
Don't take your guns to town


Carrying a gun ain't for everybody.

Bren
01-23-2012, 05:47
Does Indiana law allow you to bring a gun to a fist fight? I'm betting it doesn't. Generally you have to be facing a deadly force threat or, at the very least, a violent felony (in some castle doctrine states), not a misdemeanor punch in the nose. "I can't fight" is probably not going to give you an excuse to shoot.

As far as I'm concerned every person has a weapon and is a black belt in every martial art unless I know otherwise.

The law does not agree with you. The law can also send you to prison for the rest of your life, when it disagrees with you. Good luck.:upeyes:

GuitarSlinger66
01-23-2012, 08:18
Thanks to those who provided constructive criticism. I know a gun isn't a do-all, end-all. I'm not an idiot. Was just looking for some different points of view on the topic of essentially shooting an unarmed person.

Time for some defense tactics classes I guess!

unit1069
01-23-2012, 09:02
Here is a fair bit of good info, take some time and listen to it all...

Massad Ayoob - Judicious Use of Force. Part [1] - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qW_xaTf5oqI&list=PLEBB72502075AC476&feature=mh_lolz)
Massad Ayoob - Judicious Use of Force. Part [2] - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oGJIyxm2s_M&feature=bf_next&list=PLEBB72502075AC476&lf=mh_lolz)
Massad Ayoob - Judicious Use of Force. Part [3] - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gNCRL9SN2QA&feature=bf_next&list=PLEBB72502075AC476&lf=mh_lolz)
Massad Ayoob - Judicious Use of Force. Part [4] - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AJazmbDH7S8&feature=bf_next&list=PLEBB72502075AC476&lf=mh_lolz)

Sam Spade nailed it, a gun is not the "one tool that fixes everything". It is one tool with a very, very narrow scope of use. For starters, get yourself set-up for hands-free calling.

Thanks for posting these videos. It's always good to take a refresher course from time to time and this one is excellent.

xmanhockey7
01-23-2012, 11:32
Does Indiana law allow you to bring a gun to a fist fight? I'm betting it doesn't. Generally you have to be facing a deadly force threat or, at the very least, a violent felony (in some castle doctrine states), not a misdemeanor punch in the nose. "I can't fight" is probably not going to give you an excuse to shoot.



The law does not agree with you. The law can also send you to prison for the rest of your life, when it disagrees with you. Good luck.:upeyes:

What do Indiana law have to do with it? Also when I say that I say it because my ultimate goal is to never have to be in any type of altercation. I try to deescalate all situations. By having the attitude that the person does have a weapon on them and/or knows how to fight.

notjustanothermini
01-23-2012, 11:52
oh lord that second video posted with "the black guy" is the kind of thing you should not post here, it makes me outrageously mad. id of shot that dude just standing there talking like that, let alone beating the piss out of some poor white ladys car.

he also says "**** yo' little children nigga"

they dont make a gun big enough for that *******.

4 bore rilfe anyone, 40mm antitank gun? or just a good old clip full of underwood 10mm's. how he walked away from that in traffick is a GD mystery, people are punks, he is one and so is everone else in the traffick for not running his ass down or getting out and throwing an ass whooping his way.

i have dealt with stuff like this before, and at 5'6" 160 pounds, im a double agent, meaning i can bench over twice my weight. some fat beer drinking CCW holding guys need to stop hiding behind a gun and just fight a person, it used to happen all the time back in the 60's-80's , hell even 90's. now it is all about "am i right for shooting him, i hop so..."?

id have put one in him, but better yet, id have liked to feel my knuckles breaking his coco nut skull open.

notjustanothermini
01-23-2012, 11:54
tdc20, what the heck happend to that striker block in you avatar?

GuitarSlinger66
01-23-2012, 11:54
What do Indiana law have to do with it? Also when I say that I say it because my ultimate goal is to never have to be in any type of altercation. I try to deescalate all situations. By having the attitude that the person does have a weapon on them and/or knows how to fight.

Exactly. What I'm getting at is a scenario where you do everything in your power to deescalate the situation and present yourself as armed, weapon lowered, and tell him to STOP now. He continues coming towards you saying he's going to kill you - there is only one thing he's going to do and that's do exactly what he said. Maybe he doesn't think you'll shoot, maybe he knows the law, maybe he thinks he can beat the crap out of you, take your own gun and kill you with it.

Force continuum's are BS in my opinion because what we all want is an unfair fight. And who has formal combat training in CQB? How do you know you're going to fair well against this guy - who obviously wants to do serious bodily harm to you? He's ready (and wanting) to fight - you aren't. And who says he doesn't have a gun in his back pocket once he gets right up to you and beats the **** out of you?

speedracer815
01-23-2012, 11:56
It seems now days everyone is afraid to get their tail whipped. getting you butt kicked and getting killed are two different things.

You don't have to look too hard to find incidents where someone getting "their tail whipped" ended up dead, in ICU and/or with life changing injuries. In civilized society there is absolutely no reason to subject yourself to that.

I agree there are other tools and tactics. In the OP I wonder why you would pull over and stop, as well as why you would get out of your vehicle. If anything when he gets out of his vehicle is a great time to drive away. When you carry a gun you're simply not allowed to let adrenaline take over.

Having said all that, if avoidance becomes impossible, I will do what is necessary to neutralize the threat before I find myself on the ground getting brain damage from someone's size 12's.

notjustanothermini
01-23-2012, 12:13
dont spend your whole life trying to manufacture a "good shoot"

come on for gods sake we arent god with a handgun, we are people, fighting with fists is the way to go if you can. most "thugs" will respect that more than a little bit.
'

to them, shoot them up gang bangers, everyone can shoot pull a trigger even the 12 year olds they recruit. but get down and beat the **** out of one, they will tell no one but themselve and leave you alone for good. pull a gun, then 2 weeks later "there that MFer goes that stuck a strap in my face, lets smoke him" and your dead by a drive by or walk up and shoot you dead in a parking lot.

use fists, when you can,

shooting a unarmed guy picking on you is not clean in the least bit, it is the stuff that punk stories were made of in the days of better human interaction. ie 60" and 70's

get into a fight and start loosing and pull out an gun and win, cowardly at best.

Sam Spade
01-23-2012, 12:25
Force continuum's are BS in my opinion because what we all want is an unfair fight. And who has formal combat training in CQB? How do you know you're going to fair well against this guy - who obviously wants to do serious bodily harm to you? He's ready (and wanting) to fight - you aren't. And who says he doesn't have a gun in his back pocket once he gets right up to you and beats the **** out of you?

Problem is, is a series of very convinving witnesses are going to line up and explain why force continuum isn't BS, but is pretty much the industry standard. Then the lawyer is going to pipe in with how the law requires you to respond with proportional force. And all of your "What if he's a ninja schooled in the deadly Dim Mak Death Touch?" is going to been seen as naked fear---that is, a fear that's not based in any factor actually known to you at the time, and therefore not a reasonable fear. Tied to that naked fear, your rhetorical "who has formal combat training in CQB" is going to be turned right around and you're going to be asked to articulate why a reasonable person would think that the guy you shot fit that category. And you'll need to articulate why is was "obvious" that he had the intent to do serious bodily harm. If you can't articulate it, why're you shooting him?

Frankly, it sounds like you're drifting back to the gun for everything. "I've got this gun, so I don't need to do anything but show it and use it." Not so---it really is time for some more tools in your toolbox.

dosei
01-23-2012, 12:31
What I'm getting at is a scenario where you do everything in your power to deescalate the situation and present yourself as armed, weapon lowered, and tell him to STOP now.

By presenting a firearm without justification, you have now escalated the situation...NOT deescalated. Also, you have opened yourself up to being labeled as the "Attacker" now. Very, very bad.

Why the blue blazes are you even getting out of the car? It's a frick'n suit of armor capable of outrunning any human on foot. Why the heck are you throwing away your armor? There are SO many things you should be doing, but you're choosing to make every wrong move until you feel you need to murder an unarmed person...and then trying to justify it. DIAL 911.

Bren
01-23-2012, 12:34
By presenting a firearm without justification, you have now escalated the situation...NOT deescalated. Also, you have opened yourself up to being labeled as the "Attacker" now. Very, very bad.


Oddly enough, that exact situation is covered by a statute, here in Kentucky.

Under KRS 503.060, if a person attacked you with non-deadly force and you respond with deadly force, the original attacker then gets the right to legally use deadly force against you in self-defense (unless he attacked you for the purpose of getting a chance to use deadly force).

dosei
01-23-2012, 12:47
Oddly enough, that exact situation is covered by a statute, here in Kentucky.

Under KRS 503.060, if a person attacked you with non-deadly force and you respond with deadly force, the original attacker then gets the right to legally use deadly force against you in self-defense (unless he attacked you for the purpose of getting a chance to use deadly force).

...and other states (such as SC) have "dueling" laws. Which means if you "accept" getting into a fight with someone, you lose any/all right to claim SD...no matter what happens.

GuitarSlinger66
01-23-2012, 17:06
By presenting a firearm without justification, you have now escalated the situation...NOT deescalated. Also, you have opened yourself up to being labeled as the "Attacker" now. Very, very bad.

Why the blue blazes are you even getting out of the car? It's a frick'n suit of armor capable of outrunning any human on foot. Why the heck are you throwing away your armor? There are SO many things you should be doing, but you're choosing to make every wrong move until you feel you need to murder an unarmed person...and then trying to justify it. DIAL 911.

Well it was a bad example then. I guess it's such an unlikely event but again - crosses my mind. Perhaps one where I think I've lost the guy but he's followed me to somewhere. Or something inescapable. And trust me - I'd find a way to call 911. But they can't always respond within the time frame that bad things can happen.

Take the car out of the hypothetical - I'm talking about what Ayoob was going on about: Several guys vs. you. Now it's down to one v. one. What do you do? This is where the video got cut off and went back to a previous video. I'm not sure - if you're facing just ONE guy who is determined to beat the hell out of you and cause serious bodily harm, how are you supposed to respond proportionally? NO one who wants to win responds proportionally. (Do you think unmanned drones, sniper attacks, bombing missions, etc.) are proportional? Even SWAT raids - the whole idea is UN-proportional tactics. Why does John CCW Public have to lay down his gun and fist fight with some guy who wants to kill him? Only punches below the neck? What if I go straight for his eyes - like you should do if you're getting serious.

GuitarSlinger66
01-23-2012, 17:08
dont spend your whole life trying to manufacture a "good shoot"

come on for gods sake we arent god with a handgun, we are people, fighting with fists is the way to go if you can. most "thugs" will respect that more than a little bit.
'

to them, shoot them up gang bangers, everyone can shoot pull a trigger even the 12 year olds they recruit. but get down and beat the **** out of one, they will tell no one but themselve and leave you alone for good. pull a gun, then 2 weeks later "there that MFer goes that stuck a strap in my face, lets smoke him" and your dead by a drive by or walk up and shoot you dead in a parking lot.

use fists, when you can,

shooting a unarmed guy picking on you is not clean in the least bit, it is the stuff that punk stories were made of in the days of better human interaction. ie 60" and 70's

get into a fight and start loosing and pull out an gun and win, cowardly at best.

I don't care what thugs "think." I'd have no problem laying someone out who wants to kill me - using whatever means necessary. If that means using my car, gun, butcher knife - if you want to kill me or a loved one, I'm going to kill you first.

Get real.

ATW525
01-23-2012, 17:45
Why does John CCW Public have to lay down his gun and fist fight with some guy who wants to kill him?

Pepperspray, tasers and impact weapons (ASP, kubaton, flashlight) used in a less lethal manner are all usually considered a reasonable level of force to use in response to non-deadly force. Not all are legal in every state, but perhaps you should research what options you can carry and consider obtaining an intermediate force weapon (and the knowledge to properly use it). Just because you can't shoot somebody doesn't mean you have to square up to them and throw down mano-a-mano.

Steve50
01-23-2012, 17:47
dont spend your whole life trying to manufacture a "good shoot"

come on for gods sake we arent god with a handgun, we are people, fighting with fists is the way to go if you can. most "thugs" will respect that more than a little bit.
'

to them, shoot them up gang bangers, everyone can shoot pull a trigger even the 12 year olds they recruit. but get down and beat the **** out of one, they will tell no one but themselve and leave you alone for good. pull a gun, then 2 weeks later "there that MFer goes that stuck a strap in my face, lets smoke him" and your dead by a drive by or walk up and shoot you dead in a parking lot.

use fists, when you can,

shooting a unarmed guy picking on you is not clean in the least bit, it is the stuff that punk stories were made of in the days of better human interaction. ie 60" and 70's

get into a fight and start loosing and pull out an gun and win, cowardly at best.

that's nuts

Misty02
01-23-2012, 18:32
Under those circumstances, I would never pull over. Keep driving, if he is following you find a way to call 911 (get an earpiece so you can talk hands free). Donít leave your vehicle at all, it offers some protection and can take you further and faster than your legs can.

My practice consists of avoiding situations in the first place (in your scenario try not to tick people off). If I failed to avoid it all together, then evade (find a way out without making contact with the person possibly wanting to do you harm). If you have tried all possible and youíre still in danger, then you have no choice but to try to engage the threat. Just keep in mind, the other person may also be armed and may be faster and more accurate than you think.

Iíll tell you the same thing Iíve told my boys often, donít even bother touching your horn (unless is to alert a distracted driver that is going into your lane of your presence). When youíre dealing with others out there, assume they are also armed and are extremely much better at it than you. Each time you perceive conflict, leave! If you donít feel like leaving, take a second to think if itís worth getting shot or killed; if it is, then by all means, stay. If you live and it is a clear case of self-defense, several thousands (or more) dollars later you are likely to be just fine. Oh, and donít waste your one call on me, Iím not bailing you out if I so much smell you could have avoided it and didnít.

By the way, both my boys can fight well. One is tall and the other is into body building. Prior to carrying they didnít go too far out of their way to avoid fights. They didnít start them, but they did little to prevent them from taking place. A few months into the oldest carrying I started to notice the change, his brother soon followed; although he complained a lot at first because the other wanted to leave a restaurant or a particular party they had gone to because someone was being a jerk and he was not going to be there when the guy decided to start something.

I used to be the one that would say ďletís go!Ē only to be met with questions as to why. Now days, when we go out together, if they catch a glimpse of something before I do, they will be the ones poking me on the side and whispering ďmaybe we should leaveĒ.

There will likely be situations you face where it would be perfectly legal to draw and shoot. Just because it is legal, it doesnít mean that you wonít go through hell (even if there are no legal issues). Why put yourself and your family through that if you can avoid it?

If your life or that of another is in danger, then fight with all you have until there isnít a breath left in you or there is no longer a threat. Deal with legal aspects latter, not something you should allow your mind to be distracted with when lives are at risk.

Keep in mind, these are my personal opinions. I wonít be there to neither save you nor pay your legal expenses. You have to reach your own conclusions in these matters.

.

Misty02
01-23-2012, 18:45
It seems now days everyone is afraid to get their tail whipped. getting you butt kicked and getting killed are two different things. you gotta decided the level of threat and be prepared to respond. I put emphasis on being prepared. If you don't have any hand to hand combat skills, you better get some help.

I donít believe an armed person should entertain the possibility of getting their ďtail whippedĒ unless they are very good at fighting and know they wonít lose. Remember what is on your person that can become an additional tool for your aggressor if he is able to overpower you.

Unless your H2H is above that of your aggressor and you can guarantee you will not lose control of your weapon, you are just finding another way to get killed.

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Misty02
01-23-2012, 19:10
As far as I'm concerned every person has a weapon and is a black belt in every martial art unless I know otherwise.

Same here.

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dosei
01-24-2012, 08:14
I'm talking about what Ayoob was going on about: Several guys vs. you. Now it's down to one v. one. What do you do?

Mas covers that in Part 2, starting at time index 4:05. This is where he talks about disparity of force. Listen especially to time index 5:20 thru 5:55 and 7:45 thru 8:03. Per the Warren Doctrine, you are not justified when it gets down to 1 on 1 and the other person is unarmed.

whoops dude
01-24-2012, 08:23
Unless you see a gun, why get out of the car at all? Lock the doors, roll up the windows and call 911. Unless you drive a convertible or something similar, you're reasonably safe from an unarmed man. If he retrieves a weapon, drive off if you can or do whatever else you need to do to stay safe if you can't.

ETA: Of course, if you do see a gun and are blocked in, then get the freak out of the car! A stationary vehicle is a death trap when somebody is shooting at you.Agreed. IMO If you get out of your car to shoot an unarmed individual, you will be charged with murder. It will be argued that you saw the aggressor coming and could have just driven away. Which realistically in this scenario you could have just done.

broncobuddha1
01-24-2012, 09:23
You don't have to look too hard to find incidents where someone getting "their tail whipped" ended up dead, in ICU and/or with life changing injuries. In civilized society there is absolutely no reason to subject yourself to that.

I agree there are other tools and tactics. In the OP I wonder why you would pull over and stop, as well as why you would get out of your vehicle. If anything when he gets out of his vehicle is a great time to drive away. When you carry a gun you're simply not allowed to let adrenaline take over.

Having said all that, if avoidance becomes impossible, I will do what is necessary to neutralize the threat before I find myself on the ground getting brain damage from someone's size 12's.

This.

I'm not going to risk permanent injury or death because some ******* didnt bring more tools with him when he decides to threaten me.

I would absolutely always try to deescalate the situation. I would have left and never gotten out of the car.

And merely showing your weapon or claiming that you're armed to an individual who has already threatened you does not automatically make you the aggressor. Its merely you sayng hey I'm armed and I don't want any trouble. If they persist, well that's someone aiming to be on the Darwin awards.

H&K 4 LIFE
01-24-2012, 10:42
Problem is, is a series of very convinving witnesses are going to line up and explain why force continuum isn't BS, but is pretty much the industry standard. Then the lawyer is going to pipe in with how the law requires you to respond with proportional force. And all of your "What if he's a ninja schooled in the deadly Dim Mak Death Touch?" is going to been seen as naked fear---that is, a fear that's not based in any factor actually known to you at the time, and therefore not a reasonable fear. Tied to that naked fear, your rhetorical "who has formal combat training in CQB" is going to be turned right around and you're going to be asked to articulate why a reasonable person would think that the guy you shot fit that category. And you'll need to articulate why is was "obvious" that he had the intent to do serious bodily harm. If you can't articulate it, why're you shooting him?

Frankly, it sounds like you're drifting back to the gun for everything. "I've got this gun, so I don't need to do anything but show it and use it." Not so---it really is time for some more tools in your toolbox.

Man, I just love reading your posts.

A voice of reason amidst the nonsense and confusion.