Training for condition 1 concealed carry [Archive] - Glock Talk

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Jfduece
01-23-2012, 13:23
I am considering getting a sig p238 or possibly the new p938 when it hits shelves later this year. I am most concerned about how I will react in a real world shooting situation with the p238 vs with my glock. Glock is easy; pull and shoot. With the p238; its pull, disengage the saftey, then shoot.

For any of you running the p238 or a similier 1911 style weapon; how long(how much training) did it take to be comfortable that you knew you would have the mindset to flick that safety off in a real world shooting situation?

also, i recognize that there are alternative pistols such as the lcp that resolve this problem, and i am considering them as well. no need to suggest alternatives.
And no need to get into a pissing contest over minimum caliber, i think the .380 vs 9x19 argument has been beat to death in other threads already.

uhlawpup
01-23-2012, 13:33
My every day carry is a P238.

It took very little training to become comfortable with it. After all, it is quite doubtful in my life situation that I would have to deploy my concealed handgun in a quick-draw manner.

As Wyatt Earp once said, "Fast is fine, but accuracy is everything."

Arourasphere
01-23-2012, 13:44
I use a P238 for summer carry here in Vegas. A trick I used was to have it loaded with snap caps at home (all live ammo locked in the safe during this) and while watching tv (or some other menial task) I would have my girl randomly yell "draw." I would then draw and sight a target taped to a wall. It not only helped with my draw speed from the mini tuck I use, but it also trained me to flick the safety off on instinct. Just please be sure there is absolutely no live ammo around when you do this.

Jfduece
01-23-2012, 14:04
My every day carry is a P238.

It took very little training to become comfortable with it. After all, it is quite doubtful in my life situation that I would have to deploy my concealed handgun in a quick-draw manner.

As Wyatt Earp once said, "Fast is fine, but accuracy is everything."


If it is not too intrusive, what is your "life situation" that leads you to believe you will not need a quick draw?

purrrfect 10
01-23-2012, 14:22
If it is not too intrusive, what is your "life situation" that leads you to believe you will not need a quick draw?

When I was a very little boy I had a similar problem to your safety problem but, After a couple mistakes it didn't take long at all to remember to unzip when loaded :rofl::rofl::rofl:380??? that will really pissum off...Man up carry your Glock

Happy Hunting
01-23-2012, 14:32
I use a P238 for summer carry here in Vegas. A trick I used was to have it loaded with snap caps at home (all live ammo locked in the safe during this) and while watching tv (or some other menial task) I would have my girl randomly yell "draw." I would then draw and sight a target taped to a wall. It not only helped with my draw speed from the mini tuck I use, but it also trained me to flick the safety off on instinct. Just please be sure there is absolutely no live ammo around when you do this.

Similar to this, but in the mirror and by myself to line up COM. Thumb safeties are conveniently placed so that you can flick them off during your draw before you are fully set down the sights.

Other good solo training things are resting a penny on the top of the slide and squeezing the trigger so that the penny doesn't fall off.

Enjoy your SA trigger!

Jfduece
01-23-2012, 15:50
When I was a very little boy I had a similar problem to your safety problem but, After a couple mistakes it didn't take long at all to remember to unzip when loaded :rofl::rofl::rofl:380??? that will really pissum off...Man up carry your Glock


Fail :faint:

Rumbler_G20
01-23-2012, 15:59
No one can say how you will react to a "real life" gunfight beyond saying that without professional training - extensive professional training - chances are highest you will do one of two things:

1) Freeze. Think deer in the headlights.
2) Run like h e l l with no consideration to either your welfare or that of anyone around you.

Neither requires the safety to be "flicked" off in a hurry so I wouldn't worry about it.

Oh, and the assumption is being made that you do not have professional training because I am completely unaware of any professional trainer, or training agency, that would teach that the .380 is appropriate as a primary defensive pistol. Because it is not. :wavey:


I am considering getting a sig p238 or possibly the new p938 when it hits shelves later this year. I am most concerned about how I will react in a real world shooting situation with the p238 vs with my glock. Glock is easy; pull and shoot. With the p238; its pull, disengage the saftey, then shoot.

For any of you running the p238 or a similier 1911 style weapon; how long(how much training) did it take to be comfortable that you knew you would have the mindset to flick that safety off in a real world shooting situation?

also, i recognize that there are alternative pistols such as the lcp that resolve this problem, and i am considering them as well. no need to suggest alternatives.
And no need to get into a pissing contest over minimum caliber, i think the .380 vs 9x19 argument has been beat to death in other threads already.

valian
01-23-2012, 16:03
I carried a 1911 in the 1970s through the 80s, practiced a lot even competed with 1911s.
I do not carry any of my 1911s for defense at all now.
'I realize that on the street things can and often do happen very fast accompanied often with a lot of distraction and confusion. The last thing i want is to have one more fine motor skilled task to complete before i can fire a shot during an attack. Competition games cannot duplicate the stresses and especially not the physical aspect of many fights and attacks.
Force on force comes much closer but still falls short.
Why handicap yourself with one more step in a life and death situation? As others sometimes say... it is 2011 now not 1911. Realistically and honestly there are much better options.

davsco
01-23-2012, 16:03
how long(how much training) did it take to be comfortable that you knew you would have the mindset to flick that safety off in a real world shooting situation?


prob should carry the gun you're most familiar with. try doing idpa or uspsa with the new gun, that will get you started on remembering there's a safety you have to deal with. it won't replicate a crime in progress, but when that buzzer goes off, the adrenaline definitely starts flowing, and mistakes can and will present themselves.

maybe when you gear up every morning remind yourself what gun you have and what's needed to get it in action.

like you said, the odds are you'll never need it, but sure would suck to not have your act together if/when you do need it.

Gunnut 45/454
01-23-2012, 16:14
Both of my semi-autos have a safety, though from day one they have been carried one in the pipe and safety off. So it pretty much like the Glock. Both are DA/SA so its a no brainer really. They only thing I've trained for is to sweep the safety with my thumb as I draw. When I'm shooting for practice I draw sweep fire sweep safety on(drops hammer) holster, sweep safety off. Train the way you'll fight !:supergrin:

Jfduece
01-23-2012, 18:59
No one can say how you will react to a "real life" gunfight beyond saying that without professional training - extensive professional training - chances are highest you will do one of two things:

1) Freeze. Think deer in the headlights.
2) Run like h e l l with no consideration to either your welfare or that of anyone around you.

Neither requires the safety to be "flicked" off in a hurry so I wouldn't worry about it.

Oh, and the assumption is being made that you do not have professional training because I am completely unaware of any professional trainer, or training agency, that would teach that the .380 is appropriate as a primary defensive pistol. Because it is not. :wavey:


.380 is appropriate if it is all i can conceal. Now, we can run circles arguing about what I can and cannot conceal, but you don't know me or what is possible for my body type. In texas, printing is illegal, and I'm not going to wear multiple layers of clothing, sweating like crazy to conceal a pistol. .380 may not be the best, but its not going to bounce off the BG as you may be led to believe.

At any rate, i am hoping to get the 9mm p938 when it comes out. The 238 was mostly an example since it is almost exactly the same and i know a lot of people carry it.

Back to the issue at hand. Anyone else here switched from a glock or other DA/SA to a 1911 style pistol? Let me know if you had trouble getting used to the change in deployment method with the safety.

Thanks

Rumbler_G20
01-24-2012, 09:04
Na, no circles. You see, I train women as small as 5'2" and maybe 100 pounds . . . soaking wet. The vast majority of them carry full size full power defensive handguns concealed daily like their lives depend on it - and sometimes they do.

I certainly don't have a problem visualizing you as being smaller and/or less capable than them.

By the way, the goal in the event of a self defense shooting is to stop the threat as expediently as possible. The .380ACP is far far far from the best choice for that job. History proves that conclusively.

It is apparent, no, obvious, that you have elected to carry for some other reason and to base your decisions on something other than historical fact.

I certainly don't have a problem with you doing that either. :wavey:


It simply pains me to contemplate the likelihood that you may influence of others who may have a legitimate interest in surviving a violent assault or full on gun fight. But, obviously I have reached my limit in my ability to do that. So I'll stop now and say a little prayer for those who may really want to learn.


Now, we can run circles arguing about what I can and cannot conceal, but you don't know me or what is possible for my body type. In texas, printing is illegal, and I'm not going to wear multiple layers of clothing, sweating like crazy to conceal a pistol. .380 may not be the best, but its not going to bounce off the BG as you may be led to believe. . . .

cowboy1964
01-24-2012, 11:38
After all, it is quite doubtful in my life situation that I would have to deploy my concealed handgun in a quick-draw manner.

Every real life shooting video I've ever seen is a "quick draw" situation. If you're practiced I don't think flicking off a safety will be a hindrence but the fact is you don't want anything significant delaying you.

Jfduece
01-24-2012, 12:36
blah...delete

Jfduece
01-24-2012, 12:53
Na, no circles. You see, I train women as small as 5'2" and maybe 100 pounds . . . soaking wet. The vast majority of them carry full size full power defensive handguns concealed daily like their lives depend on it - and sometimes they do.

I certainly don't have a problem visualizing you as being smaller and/or less capable than them.

By the way, the goal in the event of a self defense shooting is to stop the threat as expediently as possible. The .380ACP is far far far from the best choice for that job. History proves that conclusively.

It is apparent, no, obvious, that you have elected to carry for some other reason and to base your decisions on something other than historical fact.

I certainly don't have a problem with you doing that either. :wavey:


It simply pains me to contemplate the likelihood that you may influence of others who may have a legitimate interest in surviving a violent assault or full on gun fight. But, obviously I have reached my limit in my ability to do that. So I'll stop now and say a little prayer for those who may really want to learn.


You've done a very good job of twisting my words and turning this thread into something it is not. I understand the pros and cons of carrying .380 vs a larger caliber. I am not trying to convince anyone that it is okay to carry .380 and if that is what i end up with it is not a decision i take lightly at all. 40 s&w would be my preference, truth be told. As i stated in my original post there are plenty of other threads to argue over the merrits of caliber size, but here, my question is related to use of a manual safety. You seem to be suggesting that you yourself are some kind of expert or professional trainer. If so please give me your thoughts on the original question at hand.

Your oringinal reply seems to relate to training and practice. That appears to be most of the feedback here and i am already willing to put in the hours. I just wanted to get peoples experiences with this problem of switching from no saftey to a single action with safety. How hard is it to form that muscle memory?

Any input is still appreciated on the question at hand.

ATW525
01-24-2012, 13:12
The rule of thumb you usually hear is at least 3000 correct repetitions to develop the muscle memory to use a retention holster under stress. I expect that developing the muscle memory to disengage the safety would require a similar amount of repetitions.

Mixing guns with and without manual safeties can be a potential snag, though. My own answer to mitigate this problem is to focus the majority of my practice on the gun with the manual safety. I figure that trying to thumb off the non-existent safety on my Glock is less disastrous than forgetting to thumb off the safety on my Hi-Power.

ancient_serpent
01-24-2012, 13:23
OP: Just train with it as much as you can. Remember to train as you fight. Implement as much realism into your training as you can.
If you can afford it, I highly recommend you get some professional training to help with this.
Don't listen to the nay sayers about a safety being too difficult to operate. Just about every weapon in the US military inventory has a manual safety device; these weapons are used in high stress situations all the time.
My rifles have a manual safety that switches in a downward motion, my daily carry handgun does, too.

Jfduece
01-24-2012, 13:30
The rule of thumb you usually hear is at least 3000 correct repetitions to develop the muscle memory to use a retention holster under stress. I expect that developing the muscle memory to disengage the safety would require a similar amount of repetitions.

Mixing guns with and without manual safeties can be a potential snag, though. My own answer to mitigate this problem is to focus the majority of my practice on the gun with the manual safety. I figure that trying to thumb off the non-existent safety on my Glock is less disastrous than forgetting to thumb off the safety on my Hi-Power.


If/when i go to the gun with a safety i will probably stick to it exclusivly just to avoid this very problem. Just like anything else, the way you train should directly correlate with the action you are training for.

collim1
01-24-2012, 13:50
Geesh guys, I am not a .380 fan at all but everyone needs a small BUG that can be carried as a primary on occasion.

No one has a problem with carrying a jframe in .38spl. I think the 2 extra rounds in the P238 should make up the difference.

I carry a 442 as a primary anytime I am wearing dress clothes.

PAGunner
01-24-2012, 15:44
I am considering getting a sig p238 or possibly the new p938 when it hits shelves later this year. I am most concerned about how I will react in a real world shooting situation with the p238 vs with my glock. Glock is easy; pull and shoot. With the p238; its pull, disengage the saftey, then shoot.


This is the argument for striker fired weapons and keeping your manual of arms SIMPLE (like all Glock, or all M&P, or all Walther). It's the reason I intend on getting ride of my DA/SA USPc .45.

SpringerTGO
01-24-2012, 16:07
I remember all the arguments against carrying a 9mm not that long ago, because it was supposed to be so inferior to the 45. Even (especially) Jeff Cooper knocked the 9mm every chance he got.

The bottom line, is that the OP is not military or LEO, he's a civilian. He doesn't have to put himself in situations where he needs high capacity, extra magazines, and the biggest caliber he can handle. Chances are, he will never have to draw his handgun in self defense. He's carrying for the same reasons that most of the people here do. He wants the security of a handgun in case lightening strikes. That being the case, if he's comfortable with a 380, that's what he should carry.

collim1
01-24-2012, 16:58
I remember all the arguments against carrying a 9mm not that long ago, because it was supposed to be so inferior to the 45. Even (especially) Jeff Cooper knocked the 9mm every chance he got.

The bottom line, is that the OP is not military or LEO, he's a civilian. He doesn't have to put himself in situations where he needs high capacity, extra magazines, and the biggest caliber he can handle. Chances are, he will never have to draw his handgun in self defense. He's carrying for the same reasons that most of the people here do. He wants the security of a handgun in case lightening strikes. That being the case, if he's comfortable with a 380, that's what he should carry.

Once again, I am not a big fan of .380 but it has come along way in the last few years and has a lot more load options.

SpringerTGO
01-24-2012, 17:14
Once again, I am not a big fan of .380 but it has come along way in the last few years and has a lot more load options.

I'm not knocking the 380. There's a P3AT in my car most of the time. I also carry a S&W340 (357) or a (sometimes working) Nighthawk T3 in 45 when I carry.
Again, who cares what others decide to carry? If someone wants to know how to train C1, it's their own business what they carry.

collim1
01-24-2012, 17:19
I'm not knocking the 380. There's a P3AT in my car most of the time. I also carry a S&W340 (357) or a (sometimes working) Nighthawk T3 in 45 when I carry.
Again, who cares what others decide to carry? If someone wants to know how to train C1, it's their own business what they carry.

It wasn't directed at you, I just felt the OP was catching alot of unnecessary heat and you brought up a good point.

NMGlocker
01-24-2012, 17:25
As Wyatt Earp once said, "Fast is fine, but accuracy is everything."
And fast accuracy trumps them both.

SpringerTGO
01-24-2012, 17:27
It wasn't directed at you, I just felt the OP was catching alot of unnecessary heat and you brought up a good point.

Thanks.
The way a lot of people post around here, you'd think they live in Beruit.

ca survivor
01-24-2012, 17:29
If it is not too intrusive, what is your "life situation" that leads you to believe you will not need a quick draw?

I would like the answer to that too

ca survivor
01-24-2012, 17:36
Thanks.
The way a lot of people post around here, you'd think they live in Beruit.

I prepare for trouble and pray for peace...check my location....:wavey:

PAGunner
01-24-2012, 18:12
I remember all the arguments against carrying a 9mm not that long ago, because it was supposed to be so inferior to the 45. Even (especially) Jeff Cooper knocked the 9mm every chance he got.

The bottom line, is that the OP is not military or LEO, he's a civilian. He doesn't have to put himself in situations where he needs high capacity, extra magazines, and the biggest caliber he can handle. Chances are, he will never have to draw his handgun in self defense. He's carrying for the same reasons that most of the people here do. He wants the security of a handgun in case lightening strikes. That being the case, if he's comfortable with a 380, that's what he should carry.

Where I come from lightning strikes often my friend, pretty soon I'll need a third hand to count the number of people murdered whom I went to K-12 school with. I'd need another several hands to count how many are felons... Where I currently live, in Palm Beach County, not nearly like back home but crime still happens.

Perhaps our perspectives are a little different, but I KNOW that the chances of having a violent felony happening to you or your family in your life time is much higher than lightning striking, maybe not probably, but the chance is much higher than you think.

SCmasterblaster
01-24-2012, 18:39
G17. Perceive threat, pull out G17, pull out my safety pin, and then shoot the threat several times.

SpringerTGO
01-24-2012, 21:32
Where I come from lightning strikes often my friend, pretty soon I'll need a third hand to count the number of people murdered whom I went to K-12 school with. I'd need another several hands to count how many are felons... Where I currently live, in Palm Beach County, not nearly like back home but crime still happens.

Perhaps our perspectives are a little different, but I KNOW that the chances of having a violent felony happening to you or your family in your life time is much higher than lightning striking, maybe not probably, but the chance is much higher than you think.

I think it's up to all of us to prepare for trouble, taking into consideration where we live, travel, work, etc. If we need advice on how to do it we should seek it out. Nothing wrong with carrying what makes us more safe and comfortable in our environment. But ultimately it is our choice.

I challenge all of the people giving the OP a hard time for choosing the 380, to show a single example of a CCW holder using a 380 for self defense, and getting injured or killed because the 380 didn't perform.
Let's see some real life examples, and then you might convince the OP to move up to a larger caliber.

Since I doubt we'll see any of those examples, how about answering the OP's questions without giving him a hard time for carrying what he wants to.

tango44
01-24-2012, 21:41
Is there any other condition to carry?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ynHenL72bPY

BroknPrism
01-25-2012, 16:37
I know you asked a very specific question, but if you don't want to (or can't) carry a small Glock, what about a DA/SA model? Aren't all Sigs that way already? No safety -- just pull. The safety is keeping your finger off the trigger. I'm honestly trying to be helpful. I used to carry 1911s and I felt comfortable that I would remember the safety, but who knows? Never had to pull it.

The Sig P225 is an awesome and very concealable model. It's single stack, so it's plenty slim and will disappear on your body, whatever shape it is. It's not .380, but that's not really a problem.

Jfduece
01-25-2012, 19:25
I know you asked a very specific question, but if you don't want to (or can't) carry a small Glock, what about a DA/SA model? Aren't all Sigs that way already? No safety -- just pull. The safety is keeping your finger off the trigger. I'm honestly trying to be helpful. I used to carry 1911s and I felt comfortable that I would remember the safety, but who knows? Never had to pull it.

The Sig P225 is an awesome and very concealable model. It's single stack, so it's plenty slim and will disappear on your body, whatever shape it is. It's not .380, but that's not really a problem.

Concealability is a high ranking factor in my criteria. Thats why i am looking at the Sig p238/938. I am strongly considering other pistols as well. I did not post the options i am considering to avoid getting everyone's opinion and no answers the question. Still had to take crap anyway, oh well

I got enough answers now anyway so here are the choices i am considering:
Ruger LCP
Ruger LC9
S&W bodyguard
beretta nano
kahr cm9
sig p238 or 938

Aside from caliber, there are plenty of arguments good and bad for all these pistols(and i've heard most of them) but overall i think any of them will get the job done.

kd8x
01-28-2012, 09:05
The long trigger pull on the LC9 is really the safety so it is really not even necessary to use the manual safety so if you are not used to a pistol with manual safety no need to fool with it. Treat it like a Glock. Keep fingers out of trigger area until ready to go....

RJ's Guns
01-28-2012, 22:50
I have seen it stated in a number of articles that; it takes 3,000 – 5,000 repetitions to burn a movement into your body’s muscle memory.
RJ