357 sig vs. 357mag [Archive] - Glock Talk

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glockguy67
01-24-2012, 17:45
are they equal in power and penetration and velocity i would rather have 15 rds than 6

barth
01-24-2012, 17:49
are they equal in power and penetration and velocity i would rather have 15 rds than 6

I have, and carry, both.
Speer GDHP
125 gr out of a 4" barrel
357 Sig ~1350 fps 506 E
357 Mag ~1450 fps 584 E

kamonjj
01-24-2012, 17:52
I have had both and I think that I'd rather get a glock in 357sig because of the reliable feeding, higher cap, and faster reload of an auto pistol vice a revolver. I have an autofeeding 357mag and its not the most reliable platform.

gsmullins
01-24-2012, 17:58
They're close enough in the numbers that the difference is mostly academic. I like Bill St. Clair's muzzle energy calculator (http://billstclair.com/energy.html) for quick comparisons like this, and based on 357 Magnum with Remington Golden Saber at 158 grains and a muzzle velocity of 1235 fps, the "efficacy" number is 54; Remington Golden Saber in 357 Sig, with a MV of 1350 fps and 125 grain bullet, scores 51. The perfection of the calculation method can be argued all day, but at least it gives one a kind of yardstick.... :cool:

HTH

Mully

Bob45acp
01-24-2012, 18:25
I'll take the capacity advantage of any semi auto in .357sig. In it's prime popularity, the .357 magnum was the cats meow. Today, there are so many other options due to modern ammo technology.

03Cobra
01-24-2012, 19:01
I wasn't aware that the two rounds performed so close. I just got a 10mm because I liked the way the 357mag performed in my old revolver but wanted higher capacity (and a Glock, more importantly). Guess I didn't have to go up to that big of a round, but either way I like the 20 I have.

Texcowboy
01-24-2012, 19:08
I wasn't aware that the two rounds performed so close. I just got a 10mm because I liked the way the 357mag performed in my old revolver but wanted higher capacity (and a Glock, more importantly). Guess I didn't have to go up to that big of a round, but either way I like the 20 I have.
From what I have read the 10mm in the hotter loadings is in the 41 mag range

TxGlock9
01-24-2012, 19:08
Yes. This is why the whole 357sig round was made in the first place. It is my choice for carry.

PAGunner
01-24-2012, 19:14
Modern .357 magnum can get velocity and energy well over the 125gr. at 1450 fps that the world famous "one shot stopper" cartridge was getting back in the day.

That said, Sig's goal was to mimic the 125gr. at 1450fps ballistics from a 4inch barrel. Initially they did that, now a days the factory SD ammo seems to run 1350-1375, but of course you can get buffalo bore ammo rated at 1430fps out of a 4 inch barrel or the Double Tap ammo at 1450 (although double tap's chronos as of recent apparently have shown this load to be underpowered from what is advertised).

So technically if you want this round for it's velocity you can go buffalo bore at 1430 and get close to the 1450 magnum velocity on a round for round basis.

Now there is more to what made the .357magnum in 125gr. at 1450fps it's reputation as a manstopper, such as bullet design, which is different than .357sig bullet designs, but I think the .357sig does a good job at what it does. 15 125gr. .355 caliber JHPs at 1350-1430 out of a 4 inch semi-auto (Glock) is hands down better than 6 or 7 shots out of a 4 inch revolver (Smith) IMHO.

mrsurfboard
01-24-2012, 19:21
I have had both and I think that I'd rather get a glock in 357sig because of the reliable feeding, higher cap, and faster reload of an auto pistol vice a revolver. I have an autofeeding 357mag and its not the most reliable platform.

Really, revolvers have feeding issues?? :rofl:

PAGunner
01-24-2012, 19:24
Really, revolvers have feeding issues?? :rofl:

Believe it or not revolvers can and do fail. The turning mechanism on any revolver is not full proof.

NCHeel
01-24-2012, 19:28
My carry is a H&K P2000 357 Sig. Got turned onto that round a few years ago. Only drawbacks are price of ammo and sometimes its' availability is limited.

03Cobra
01-24-2012, 19:30
From what I have read the 10mm in the hotter loadings is in the 41 mag range

I didn't realize that. I'll have to stack some 2x4s together and see how much different the penetration is between a 357mag and the 10mm that I have now. There was a big difference between my 357mag and my .40S&W before which is why I thought the 10mm and 357mag would be so close.

I know shooting at layered boards isn't the best test, but it is fun and is the best gauge I have at the house.

Sounds like 357sig is a nice little round.

Berto
01-24-2012, 19:32
THe revolver round is a bit more powerful, but the Sig round duplicates a very successful loading of the revolver round.

TxGlock9
01-24-2012, 19:33
Really, revolvers have feeding issues?? :rofl:

I think the culprit is that they lack ramped barrels...:whistling:

MrVvrroomm
01-24-2012, 19:56
are they equal in power and penetration and velocity i would rather have 15 rds than 6There is a world of difference between these two rounds. 357 magnum can be loaded MUCH hotter.

I own both. The only similarity between the two rounds is the numbers 3, 5, 7.

pisc1024
01-24-2012, 20:26
The mag will outperform the sig with heavier loads due to more case capacity. The mag can push a 158 gr round much faster than the sig can, and that would give you much more penetration than a 125 gr.

Angry Fist
01-24-2012, 20:29
Really, revolvers have feeding issues?? :rofl:
Maybe a DEagle? :dunno:

Angry Fist
01-24-2012, 20:29
I think the culprit is that they lack ramped barrels...:whistling:
:rofl:

Angry Fist
01-24-2012, 20:32
From what I have read the 10mm in the hotter loadings is in the 41 mag range

I didn't realize that. I'll have to stack some 2x4s together and see how much different the penetration is between a 357mag and the 10mm that I have now. There was a big difference between my 357mag and my .40S&W before which is why I thought the 10mm and 357mag would be so close.

I know shooting at layered boards isn't the best test, but it is fun and is the best gauge I have at the house.

Sounds like 357sig is a nice little round.
As much as I love 10mm, it ain't no .41 Mag. Hot 10mm = mouse fart .41 Mag. That said, I want an ultralight .41 snubbie.

Taphius
01-24-2012, 20:32
I didn't realize that. I'll have to stack some 2x4s together and see how much different the penetration is between a 357mag and the 10mm that I have now. There was a big difference between my 357mag and my .40S&W before which is why I thought the 10mm and 357mag would be so close.

I know shooting at layered boards isn't the best test, but it is fun and is the best gauge I have at the house.

Sounds like 357sig is a nice little round.

Underwood ammo has some 155's that would be able equal in energy to some of the standard 357mag loads.

bac1023
01-24-2012, 20:51
are they equal in power and penetration and velocity i would rather have 15 rds than 6

No way. The only load in which the Sig round comes close is 125gr and only if the magnum is loaded fairly light.

bac1023
01-24-2012, 20:52
From what I have read the 10mm in the hotter loadings is in the 41 mag range

Keep reading.

The 10mm doesn't come close to the 41mag.

mrsurfboard
01-24-2012, 20:59
Keep reading.

The 10mm doesn't come close to the 41mag.

I thought the 10mm was the equivalent of a tactical nuke. I know I've read that here somewhere.

M&P Shooter
01-24-2012, 21:04
are they equal in power and penetration and velocity i would rather have 15 rds than 6
No, 357 Magnum is a much bigger case with the capability to load up to 180gr loads. I have seen 158gr loads from a Ruger Black Hawk 357 Magnum drop a deer from 50/75 yards, lets see a 357sig drop deer.

PAGunner
01-24-2012, 21:04
I thought the 10mm was the equivalent of a tactical nuke. I know I've read that here somewhere.

No that would be the 9x25 Dillon. :whistling:

brausso
01-24-2012, 21:09
To me, the commercial loads are close enough in ballistics that I would take the capacity of the pistol over a revolver any day of the week. I carry my G33 frequently. My model 66 is a lot of fun to shoot though

blastfact
01-24-2012, 21:33
No that would be the 9x25 Dillon. :whistling:

LOLOL,,, .357 Sig is the 9x25 Dillon's little sister. Like the .40 S&W is the 10mm's little brother with no leg's.

If you reload and work with the .357 Sig and the .357 Mag. The mag has it hands down. As a cartridge. There really is no comparison. The .357 Sig starts loosing it's legs real quick once bullet weights go up. And the over all powder selection it needs does not allow one much room given the smaller case.

I would also and have selected my 686P 4" over any .357 Sig auto pistol. :)

AWESOMO 4000
01-24-2012, 23:50
The .357 Magnum is way more versatile...no question.

The .357 SIG served one purpose: Duplicate the ballistics of ONE .357 Magnum round - the 125gr JHP - which it does.

Everybody needs to have at least one wheelgun. Mandatory. :thumbsup:

fredj338
01-24-2012, 23:55
LOLOL,,, .357 Sig is the 9x25 Dillon's little sister. Like the .40 S&W is the 10mm's little brother with no leg's.

If you reload and work with the .357 Sig and the .357 Mag. The mag has it hands down. As a cartridge. There really is no comparison. The .357 Sig starts loosing it's legs real quick once bullet weights go up. And the over all powder selection it needs does not allow one much room given the smaller case.

I would also and have selected my 686P 4" over any .357 Sig auto pistol. :)
Depends on the purpose, but for walking around any town, tough to beat the portability & shootability of the 357sig. A G32 or P239 is smaller than any 4" 357mag, flatter & hits just as hard w/ 125gr loads + easier to shoot well. Don't get me wrong, I love the 357mag, that one in the pic is my first one of awveral 4" guns, but the 357sig is really quite a good cousin to the 4" wheelgun for a SD piece.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v703/fredj338/357mags.jpg

kamonjj
01-25-2012, 13:12
Really, revolvers have feeding issues?? :rofl:

I didn't mean that revolvers have feeding issues I meant that 357sig feeds more reliably compared to other auto calibers due to its bottle neck design. Ass clown.:whistling:

fredj338
01-25-2012, 13:50
I didn't mean that revolvers have feeding issues I meant that 357sig feeds more reliably compared to other auto calibers due to its bottle neck design. Ass clown.:whistling:

Actually, revolvers can have feeding (functioning) issues. Some of the light wt alloy guns can jump the crimp w/ heavy mag loads & tie up the cyl. Even revolver ammo needs to be test fired to make sure it works in your gun.:dunno:

Rev.357
01-25-2012, 21:02
No, 357 Magnum is a much bigger case with the capability to load up to 180gr loads. I have seen 158gr loads from a Ruger Black Hawk 357 Magnum drop a deer from 50/75 yards, lets see a 357sig drop deer.

My best friend dropped a 150lb+ buck with a G33 this past year & it only went 10-15yds.:tongueout:

unit1069
01-25-2012, 22:45
It all comes down to personal preference, so don't get me wrong.

I recognize the .357 Magnum is more powerful with a greater number of bullet weights, but I'll take a reliable .357sig semi-automatic like my G-32 with double the capacity of a .357 Magnum every day of the week for personal self-defense.

I'm not a revolver guy but I have rejected semi-autos I've owned that had long DAO triggers. I'll also take the short-reset DAO triggers of the striker-fired semi-autos over the long triggers of the revolvers I've shot.

1canvas
01-26-2012, 08:05
when i used to shoot 125grn. .357 mags most loads i clocked dindn't reach the magical 1450fps out of 4'' tubes everybody is comparing. then if you concider a snubnose .357mag such as a S&W 19 the velocity really drops off.

PghJim
01-26-2012, 10:07
The 357sig is just about equal in all aspects as long as you are talking about the 125gr bullet which the 357sig was designed around. I did some tests a while back shooting the Remington 125gr SHPJ in 357 mag out of a 6" 686, and compared that to Double Taps 125gr Seirra's 357 sig, round. The Remingtons did about 1,430fps, but I do not know how my barrel to cylinder gap rates with others. The Double Taps were over 1,450fps which were shot from a G32.

I did bare jugs, jugs stuffed with wet newspaper and allowed to sit, both with and without 4 layers of denim. From the small amount of data you can gather from such setups, I could not tell a difference between the two in fragmentation, penetration, final diameter & weight and energy effect on the jugs. I even checked where the fragmentation could be found in what jug (without paper), and the fragments were almost always in the second jugs. Not enough to make up the difference between what I could gather and 125gr. The first jugs litterly exploded with every shot, so I would guess there some of the fragments were lost lost going through the first jug. Significant fragmentation broke up in the first jug and passed into the second. That helped convince me to go with the 357 sig, and the fact that I shot it better than a 40 or 45.

Is anyone aware of other comparative data between the two rounds?

Cream Soda Kid
01-26-2012, 10:35
Using 125 grain bullets, their respective ballistics are not that different (4 inch barrels). Personally I feel confident with either one.
I usually carry my GLOCK 32 more since it’s easier to conceal and has twice the capacity.

unit1069
01-26-2012, 22:26
I did bare jugs, jugs stuffed with wet newspaper and allowed to sit, both with and without 4 layers of denim. From the small amount of data you can gather from such setups, I could not tell a difference between the two in fragmentation, penetration, final diameter & weight and energy effect on the jugs. I even checked where the fragmentation could be found in what jug (without paper), and the fragments were almost always in the second jugs. Not enough to make up the difference between what I could gather and 125gr. The first jugs litterly exploded with every shot, so I would guess there some of the fragments were lost lost going through the first jug. Significant fragmentation broke up in the first jug and passed into the second. That helped convince me to go with the 357 sig, and the fact that I shot it better than a 40 or 45.

I conducted my one and so far only backyard test this past summer comparing a couple of .357sig rounds through my G-32. One of the rounds was a downloaded Speer 125-Gold Dot offered by a boutique ammo manufacturer (1300 fps). Both rounds performed the same; and I was surprised by the same explosion the .357sig produced in the first jug. I tried a third round in four jugs and although I never found that round I can report the first jug exploded/shredded upon impact just like all the other first jugs did.

There's a dramatic impact event that occurs with .357sig/.357 Magnum.

Scoob
01-28-2012, 23:34
357 Magnum can push any bullet weight 200-250 fps faster, so no they are not comparable in power, penitration, ect. The 125 grain magnum load was a police load not a full on magnum. It's exactly like comparing .40 to 10mm lite. If you had asked if .40 were equal to 10mm you would have been flamed to death for it.

1canvas
01-29-2012, 08:43
357 Magnum can push any bullet weight 200-250 fps faster, so no they are not comparable in power, penitration, ect. The 125 grain magnum load was a police load not a full on magnum. It's exactly like comparing .40 to 10mm lite. If you had asked if .40 were equal to 10mm you would have been flamed to death for it.
with an apples to apples comparison we need to concider barrel length. often when people are looking at .357 magnum ballistics their speeds are usually from a 6'' barrel.
if the 125grn ''police load'' [1450fps] was a reduced load and not a true magnum then is the thought a true magnum load with a 125grn [+200-250fps] would be in the area 1800fps out of a 4'' barrel:wow:?

Berto
01-29-2012, 09:05
with an apples to apples comparison we need to concider barrel length. often when people are looking at .357 magnum ballistics their speeds are usually from a 6'' barrel.
if the 125grn ''police load'' [1450fps] was a reduced load and not a true magnum then is the thought a true magnum load with a 125grn [+200-250fps] would be in the area 1800fps out of a 4'' barrel:wow:?

The best .357mag 125gr load hits about 1600fps in a 4" revolver.

Zombie Steve
01-29-2012, 09:38
I'll take the versatility of a 6-gun any day. Admittedly, if I never left town, the auto might be more appealing, but I spend a lot of time in the mountains.The 686 with some cast 158's is usually going with me, particularly if I'm hoofing it.

fredj338
01-29-2012, 09:39
The best .357mag 125gr load hits about 1600fps in a 4" revolver.

FInd me a factory load that does that.:whistling: You may find one specific gun that produces such vel but in my exp, current factory 125gr 357mag make at best, 1450fps +/- from most 4" guns.:dunno:

PghJim
01-29-2012, 13:23
The 125 grain magnum load was a police load not a full on magnum. It's exactly like comparing .40 to 10mm lite. If you had asked if .40 were equal to 10mm you would have been flamed to death for it.

The 125gr. SJHP Remingtons and Federals were the standard fare for that bullet weight and there was not a special police load. You might handload a bit faster and velocities were normally given from 6" - 8 3/8" barrels.

Berto
01-30-2012, 19:25
FInd me a factory load that does that.:whistling: You may find one specific gun that produces such vel but in my exp, current factory 125gr 357mag make at best, 1450fps +/- from most 4" guns.:dunno:

Here's three:supergrin:


http://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=278

http://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=103

http://www.doubletapammo.com/php/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=21_27&products_id=443

I know at least the BB ammo is good for the adv numbers.

It came up 50fps short in this review, but its done it in other reviews ....
http://gunblast.com/SW-357MtnGun.htm

PghJim
01-30-2012, 21:42
Here's three:supergrin:


http://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=278

http://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=103

http://www.doubletapammo.com/php/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=21_27&products_id=443

I know at least the BB ammo is good for the adv numbers.

It came up 50fps short in this review, but its done it in other reviews ....
http://gunblast.com/SW-357MtnGun.htm

The one BB was right in there for a 4" barrel and you are seeing the absolute maximum the round could be shot. The point is still that the 125gr bullets were 1,450fps at best from Remington and Federal and they were not special police rounds.

http://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=103

fredj338
01-30-2012, 22:54
Here's three:supergrin:


http://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=278

http://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=103

http://www.doubletapammo.com/php/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=21_27&products_id=443

I know at least the BB ammo is good for the adv numbers.

It came up 50fps short in this review, but its done it in other reviews ....
http://gunblast.com/SW-357MtnGun.htm

So you have actually chronographed BB 125gr load in your 4" 357mag? Yeah, I would have to see it to believe it.:whistling: Most manuf cherry pick their best chrono reading & adv that. Even if it were true in avg. 4" guns, that is one boutique mauf that BTW, makes max pressure 357sig rnds as well. I have some current Federal & Win PDX on the way. I will run them thru 2-3 4" guns to see what they get vs 357sig loads I have. Stay tuned. I can already tell you the Hornady XTP load only makes a best 1350fps in one of my 4" guns. Almost exactly what I get in my G32, a bit less in my P239.

Glolt20-91
02-01-2012, 00:58
So you have actually chronographed BB 125gr load in your 4" 357mag? Yeah, I would have to see it to believe it.:whistling: Most manuf cherry pick their best chrono reading & adv that. Even if it were true in avg. 4" guns, that is one boutique mauf that BTW, makes max pressure 357sig rnds as well. I have some current Federal & Win PDX on the way. I will run them thru 2-3 4" guns to see what they get vs 357sig loads I have. Stay tuned. I can already tell you the Hornady XTP load only makes a best 1350fps in one of my 4" guns. Almost exactly what I get in my G32, a bit less in my P239.

I'm running the 125gr XTP @1491fps (1st chrono test), 1485fps, ES 06fps (2nd test) through a Colt 1911. The 125gr XTP is a much stronger design than the 9mm/355 124gr XTP used in the SIG ammo. Results from goat culling activities 357SIG/124gr XTPs (handloaded) show that this bullet comes apart in the high 1300s to low 1400s; therefore, it's less effective than the 125gr XTP at upper end 38Super velocities and starting 357mag velocities.

I'm not sure how the bonded Ranger design is working out for the 357SIG, but the only comparative bullet between the two calibers would be the shallow cavity 125gr Gold Dot.

Living in high density mountain lion habitat, my primary carry is the Colt 38Super/125gr XTP, amazingly fast split times with the punch of a 357mag. Now with the large tracks of feral hogs out back and a boar's attack on a neighbor's tracking dog; it's time to carry the M327 TRR8 with 158s/~1400fps.

As tempting as it is to buy an XD Tactical in 357SIG, I just can't get it to match up with the Super or the mag for my needs. For those who only have to worry about social miscreants, I think the SIG loaded with 125gr Gold Dots would make for a great carry given its limitations.

RichardB
02-01-2012, 07:59
Glolt, What sized hog can you safely take with a 357? I was lead to believe that a 44mag was the smallest handgun load for a good sized hog. I personally prefer 30-30.

English
02-01-2012, 08:33
The best .357mag 125gr load hits about 1600fps in a 4" revolver.

Even if true, this is a pointless comparisson.

The true comparison for handguns is power per size and weight and so the comparison for a 4 or 4.5 inch 357SIG pistol is a 2 or 2.5" barrel .357 Magnum revolver which is in any case handsomely beaten on weight and which will not match the 357SIG for power.

The versatility issue is also a red herring because the purpose of the pistol is self defence against people where the 125gn is all that is needed unless you go lighter and faster. For people there is certainly no need for the 158gn.

English

Glolt20-91
02-01-2012, 12:07
Glolt, What sized hog can you safely take with a 357? I was lead to believe that a 44mag was the smallest handgun load for a good sized hog. I personally prefer 30-30.

I don't have an answer for you because I don't have experience with the big boars. The largest hog I've seen was about 200# strolling in the front yard about 90yds away; I felt comfortable with the M686/6", handloaded 158gr Noslers I was carrying at the time. There was a cross wind and the hog didn't pick up on the German Shepherd at my side.

The tracks I'm seeing now are about double the size of the 200# hog. The rancher whose dog was severely injured by a large boar didn't have a weight range, only that it was big.

I'm a bit surprised that there are feral hogs here given the mountain lion population, but there are a number of 357 mag bullet choices that should be up to the task; heavier XTPs, 180gr Partitions, Swift A-frames and WFNs come to mind.

Outside the SIG/mag debate is the G20 10mm loaded with 200gr WFNs that I've carried in black bear country. As you mentioned, the go to is a M29 Mountain gun loaded with 300gr/JSPS or WFNs.

FWIW, I also came across a 6" lion foot print, it appears last year's 5.25" cat has grown a bit. :)

PghJim
02-01-2012, 21:23
I'm running the 125gr XTP @1491fps (1st chrono test), 1485fps, ES 06fps (2nd test) through a Colt 1911. The 125gr XTP is a much stronger design than the 9mm/355 124gr XTP used in the SIG ammo.

Help me, I do not know anything about the 38 Super. When I thought about it, I just went with the 10mm. However, I thought the bullet diameter on a 38 Super was 0.355, but I take it from what you say above that you are shooting 0.357 bullets. Please educated me on the 38 Super.

Berto
02-02-2012, 00:08
Even if true, this is a pointless comparisson.

The true comparison for handguns is power per size and weight and so the comparison for a 4 or 4.5 inch 357SIG pistol is a 2 or 2.5" barrel .357 Magnum revolver which is in any case handsomely beaten on weight and which will not match the 357SIG for power.

The versatility issue is also a red herring because the purpose of the pistol is self defence against people where the 125gn is all that is needed unless you go lighter and faster. For people there is certainly no need for the 158gn.

English

Wrong.

First, we're comparing catridges, not handguns.
Second, when you compare rounds, it stands to reason it should be apples to apples..which would subtract 1 inch for the chamber of the revolver, so 3" revolver vs 4" auto (since auto bbl length icludes chamber).

My response was to someone asking for a 4" bbl chronoing 1600fps I provided three examples with chrono data. How is that pointless?

Third, if you want to compare platform power/weight, guns like the S&W 327PD weigh 24oz with a 4" bbl and would ballistically out class a .357Sig pistol in power/weight.

Also, even in a 2.5" gun (like an 8 shot 27oz Night Guard) you get 1450fps in the 125gr loading.

http://www.gunblast.com/MilesFortis-AKChurch_BuffaloBore125-357.htm

...And, versatility may not matter to you, but it still underscores a factual truth; the revolver round is more versatile.

fredj338
02-02-2012, 09:43
Wrong.

First, we're comparing catridges, not handguns.
Second, when you compare rounds, it stands to reason it should be apples to apples..which would subtract 1 inch for the chamber of the revolver, so 3" revolver vs 4" auto (since auto bbl length icludes chamber).

My response was to someone asking for a 4" bbl chronoing 1600fps I provided three examples with chrono data. How is that pointless?

Third, if you want to compare platform power/weight, guns like the S&W 327PD weigh 24oz with a 4" bbl and would ballistically out class a .357Sig pistol in power/weight.

Also, even in a 2.5" gun (like an 8 shot 27oz Night Guard) you get 1450fps in the 125gr loading.

http://www.gunblast.com/MilesFortis-AKChurch_BuffaloBore125-357.htm

...And, versatility may not matter to you, but it still underscores a factual truth; the revolver round is more versatile.

Not really Berto. You gave three manuf claims for their chrongraphed ammo. Two of those co are boutique manuf, not always prducing what they say they are. Find me a major ammo manuf making a 125gr JHP that even sniffs 1450fps in an average 4" revolver? Again, anyone can cherry pick a certain gun & then give vel numbers form that one gun. Great for advertizing, but not really a honest indication of what the ammo actually does. Also the comparison of 4" pistols & revolvers is valid. The pistol has slightly less actual bbl & the rev has a cyl gap. That gap can bleed of quite a bit of vel depending on the gun. WHy valid testing needs to be in more than one gun.

Glolt20-91
02-02-2012, 11:57
Help me, I do not know anything about the 38 Super. When I thought about it, I just went with the 10mm. However, I thought the bullet diameter on a 38 Super was 0.355, but I take it from what you say above that you are shooting 0.357 bullets. Please educated me on the 38 Super.


Sure, the 38Super (.356 cal) is not only handloaded with 9mm (.355cal) and 356cal bullets, but also bullets designed for the 357mag. Handloading data for all three diameter bullets is listed in the current Hornady handloading manual, plus there is also handloading data found in various magazine publications.

I've worked up a number of 38Super loads and learned that the 9mm/124gr XTP and 357cal XTP shared the the same chronogrphed MVs, w/i a few fps of each other.

In working up N105 powder loads, it was apparent that much of the Hornady load data didn't create enough slide speed for reliable function. Published load data from VihtaVuori #4 and Sierra V handloading manuals had overlapping load weights, plus the max VihtaVuori load weight created less than 33,350psi chamber pressure with 124gr Hornadys.

If you wish, you can visit the VihtaVuori/Lapua website and get load data for the 357SIG, 9x23mm and 38Super. Given the significantly higher operating pressures of the SIG and 9x23mm, the Super is the only one of the three to make the 1500fps threshold. I'm not saying the SIG or 9x23mm can't make 1500fps/124gr, but if they do, it'll be with a 9mm design bullet or the 125gr Gold Dot.

FWIW, the Winchester factory ammo 9x23/125gr Silvertip @1450 is good for about 12"-13" of ballistic gel penetration.

For more on the 38Super performance, check post #36 here;

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=606797&page=2

For 357mag/125gr four layer denim performance check post #71 and for an explanation of (super)cavitation can be found at post #74. Medical bone wounding explanations can be read at posts #45 and #49.

As we can see, properly loaded, the Super can hold its own with the 357mag/6"/125gr JHPs, also, the old tech Remington 125gr SJHP exceeded 1450fps from a Dan Wesson 4".

G26S239
02-02-2012, 20:48
Even if true, this is a pointless comparisson.

The true comparison for handguns is power per size and weight and so the comparison for a 4 or 4.5 inch 357SIG pistol is a 2 or 2.5" barrel .357 Magnum revolver which is in any case handsomely beaten on weight and which will not match the 357SIG for power.

The versatility issue is also a red herring because the purpose of the pistol is self defence against people where the 125gn is all that is needed unless you go lighter and faster. For people there is certainly no need for the 158gn.

EnglishGee thanks for explaining to me what my criteria for picking guns will be. Guess I'll just get rid of this pos Trooper MK V since I have 3 pistols that can shoot 357 Sig. :upeyes:

http://i40.tinypic.com/javocp.jpg

unit1069
02-02-2012, 23:04
Gee thanks for explaining to me what my criteria for picking guns will be. Guess I'll just get rid of this pos Trooper MK V since I have 3 pistols that can shoot 357 Sig. :upeyes:

http://i40.tinypic.com/javocp.jpg

I don't believe English was disputing the Magnum power through the longer barrel, only the short barrel Magnum's velocity/power statistics.

Glolt20-91
02-03-2012, 01:20
Gee thanks for explaining to me what my criteria for picking guns will be. Guess I'll just get rid of this pos Trooper MK V since I have 3 pistols that can shoot 357 Sig. :upeyes:

http://i40.tinypic.com/javocp.jpg


Have to like those Colts. :cool:

What some armchair experts fail to understand is that it's the gun you bring to the gunfight that counts, not some hair brained theory from someone who lacks experiential knowledge and common sense.

Have you seen those scandium framed Smiths? I have the N-frame 327 TRR8 (35oz) and it's very pleasant to shoot with full power loads. The 6" L-frame 386 weighs in at 30oz and it's on my to buy list, it compares very well with the XD TACTICAL, 5"/31oz.

FWIW, there was a demand from SWAT personnel for the 357mag and S&W responded with the 8-shot Tactical Rail Revolver. During door entries it's possible for lead shield penetrating officer's pistol to get knocked out of battery, the revolver design is more reliable in that regard. This model wheelgun also makes for a top tier night stand weapon with its light and red dot capabilities IMO.

English
02-03-2012, 07:09
Gee thanks for explaining to me what my criteria for picking guns will be. Guess I'll just get rid of this pos Trooper MK V since I have 3 pistols that can shoot 357 Sig. :upeyes:

http://i40.tinypic.com/javocp.jpg

The purpose of a handgun is firepower from a firearm which is small and light enough to carry all day long in a holster. The need or lack of need for concealment governs just how small that needs to be. This is the fundamental criterion of a handgun and so any comparison should be based on size and weight for power.

If what you might need to shoot demands heavy bullet .44 magnum power and upwards then that pushes the size and weight out of what is generally concealable. If your need is for self defence the the type of clothing you can wear and the degree of concealment needed determines the size and, to a lesser extent, the weight. This then determines the tolerable bullet momentum but that limit is also affected by whether the gun is an auto or a revolver because, momentum for momentum, the revolver will have more felt recoil than the auto for the same weight and so the auto can be lighter than the equivalent revolver.

The length of the .357 Magnum cartridge is greater than the 357SIG. The extra 0.42 inches of the .357 Magnum then means that the overall length of the revolver has to increase by about half an inch to keep the same length over which the bullet is accelerated.

Then we have the problem that the nominal length of the revolver barrel starts just in front of the cylinder but the nominal lenth of the auto includes the chamber. So a 4 inch barrel 357 SIG has and effective barrel length, base of bullet to end of barrel of about 3.45 inches. The base of the .357 Magnum bullet is about 1 inch from the base of the cartridge so the effective barrel length of a nominal 4 inch barrel is about 4.87. If I have not lost track of this, that means that the nominal length of the revolver barrel has to be reduced by 1.4 inches plus 0.42 inches for the difference in cartridge length to get to the same overall length. So a .357 Magnum revolver has to have a nominal 2.2 inch barrel to match the overall length of a 4 inch barrel auto.

BUT the 357 SIG in a 4 inch barrel auto is designed to match the 4 inch barrel .357 Magnum with 125gn bullets. I don't think that the .357 Magnum can keep up with that if it is limited to a 2.2 inch barrel.

None of this means that the .357 magnum is no good or that it is not effective in self defence. What it means is that its role is geared towards hunting carried in a non concealed holster rather than concealed carry and self defense against humans. You revolver is a fine example of the difference. its options for concealed carry are extremely limited.

English

English
02-03-2012, 07:21
Have to like those Colts. :cool:

What some armchair experts fail to understand is that it's the gun you bring to the gunfight that counts, not some hair brained theory from someone who lacks experiential knowledge and common sense.

.....

Apart from your normal abusive intent, I have to wonder what you meant to say. I think the usual cliche is that it is not the gun but the fight you bring to the gunfight that counts.

As absolutely usual for you, you make no attempt to address the issues with rational argument, but then, why would someone with your level of authority, experience and respect need to lower himself to make an explanation? Common sense is good when it works and disastrous when it doesn't. The trick is knowing ahead of time which result you are going to get, but that needs something beyond common sense. It must be difficult for you.

English

481
02-03-2012, 08:11
Apart from your normal abusive intent, I have to wonder what you meant to say.

Speaking the truth is never abusive. His statement was quite clear. That you have a persecution complex is also quite clear. Deal with it.

As absolutely usual for you, you make no attempt to address the issues with rational argument, but then, why would someone with your level of authority, experience and respect need to lower himself to make an explanation?

Ah, there's that anger towards the police (and authority in general) again. I was wondering when that would reappear. Guess we didn't have to wait very long for that, huh?

The trick is knowing ahead of time which result you are going to get, but that needs something beyond common sense.

English

Oh...you mean something like your claimed ability to predict time-to-incapacitation?

:animlol:

English
02-03-2012, 10:25
Speaking the truth is never abusive. His statement was quite clear. That you have a persecution complex is also quite clear. Deal with it.
I have plenty of hair outside my skull but non inside it. I have already covered common sense. I have never claimed to have shot people but hard though it might be for you, as the super genius you claim to be, to understand, that is not an experience necessary to understanding the significance of the size of a pistol to the ability to conceal it.

Ah, there's that anger towards the police (and authority in general) again. I was wondering when that would reappear. Guess we didn't have to wait very long for that, huh?
You are probably to ignorant to understand the logical fallacy of the appeal to authority. That is the authority I was refering to but in your case and your little friend the authority you appeal to is your own. How sad you both are.
Oh...you mean something like your claimed ability to predict time-to-incapacitation?
Yet another lie. Do you have a little list of lies that you pick from? How pathetic you are! Have you ever thought of standing up and arguing like a man. You don't have the courage for it do you? Actually making an argument would expose you to others seeing that you know and understand very little and are no more than a self inflating bag of smelly wind.

Super genius. Degrees in Physics and Russian. MSc in Organic Chemistry. Glock Armoror. You make me laugh. You rank a two day course on the mechanics of the World's simplest auto pistol on a par withgraduate and post graduate degrees in science. You must be in line for the Internet BS Championship.

English

b_oglethorpe
02-03-2012, 10:37
I didn't mean that revolvers have feeding issues I meant that 357sig feeds more reliably compared to other auto calibers due to its bottle neck design. Ass clown.:whistling:

My G31c is a fun gun to shoot when it isn't jamming. I find every other caliber more reliable. ?!?

481
02-03-2012, 11:06
I have plenty of hair outside my skull but non inside it. I have already covered common sense. I have never claimed to have shot people but hard though it might be for you, as the super genius you claim to be, to understand, that is not an experience necessary to understanding the significance of the size of a pistol to the ability to conceal it.

You are probably to ignorant to understand the logical fallacy of the appeal to authority. That is the authority I was refering to but in your case and your little friend the authority you appeal to is your own. How sad you both are.

Yet another lie. Do you have a little list of lies that you pick from? How pathetic you are! Have you ever thought of standing up and arguing like a man. You don't have the courage for it do you? Actually making an argument would expose you to others seeing that you know and understand very little and are no more than a self inflating bag of smelly wind.

Super genius. Degrees in Physics and Russian. MSc in Organic Chemistry. Glock Armoror. You make me laugh. You rank a two day course on the mechanics of the World's simplest auto pistol on a par withgraduate and post graduate degrees in science. You must be in line for the Internet BS Championship.

English

Ah, another tantrum (complete with several errors and misspellings :cool:) and no doubt the funniest one yet. :animlol:

dkf
02-03-2012, 11:07
I'm running the 125gr XTP @1491fps (1st chrono test), 1485fps, ES 06fps (2nd test) through a Colt 1911. The 125gr XTP is a much stronger design than the 9mm/355 124gr XTP used in the SIG ammo.I wish Hornady made the .357sig 124gr XTP (.355") available to the reloader. The 124gr XTP bullet you buy by the 100ct and the 124 XTPgr loaded into the .357sig "Custom" ammo in 20rd boxes are not even close to the same. The sig bullet holds up better to higher velocities.

fredj338
02-03-2012, 13:30
I wish Hornady made the .357sig 124gr XTP (.355") available to the reloader. The 124gr XTP bullet you buy by the 100ct and the 124 XTPgr loaded into the .357sig "Custom" ammo in 20rd boxes are not even close to the same. The sig bullet holds up better to higher velocities.

I've wetpack tested the 124grXTP handloaded @ 1350fps, runs great in the 357sig, better than it does @ 1200fps+ in a 9mm+P load.

Glolt20-91
02-03-2012, 16:22
I don't know if Hornady makes two different 124gr XTPs, seems odd that they would, but stranger things have happened. :)

When Gunblast did a review of the SIG caliber, it was the Hornady 124gr XTP ammo that gave them their best test results heads up against other ammo choices.

It was forum member 'Person of Interest' who verified 124gr XTP bullet failure at upper 1300fps to low 1400s from his SIG during goat culling activities.

Wilson loads their 38Super/124gr XTP ammo to about 1335fps. I would think they could load it faster if the bullet was stronger. :dunno:

dkf
02-03-2012, 16:42
I don't know if Hornady makes two different 124gr XTPs, seems odd that they would, but stranger things have happened. :)

They do, I have both. The .357sig version is only available in loaded ammo.

G26S239
02-03-2012, 17:34
The purpose of a handgun is firepower from a firearm which is small and light enough to carry all day long in a holster. First off that may be your only purpose for having a handgun but it is not mine. I bought my 460XVR because I wanted a giant revolver that leaves the 44 magnum in the dust. It does that quite readily even with the understudy 454 Casull load. Second the Colt Trooper I posted does carry quite well in a holster, the Bianchi 5BN comes to mind. Third the 357 Sig only matches the 357 magnum within a very narrow frame of use. Outside that limited window the 357 magnum is capable of way more than the 357 Sig.

The need or lack of need for concealment governs just how small that needs to be. This is the fundamental criterion of a handgun and so any comparison should be based on size and weight for power.
So I shouldn't bother owning this 42 ounce 5.5" Ruger?

http://i42.tinypic.com/1zq9bh1.jpg


None of this means that the .357 magnum is no good or that it is not effective in self defence. What it means is that its role is geared towards hunting carried in a non concealed holster rather than concealed carry and self defense against humans. You revolver is a fine example of the difference. its options for concealed carry are extremely limited.

EnglishPutting aside long history the 357 magnum has as a self defense/police cartridge the OP asked if the magnum and Sig are equal. They are not. As far compact and carryable goes, if I want more hitting power than my 26 has with its 127 grain +P+ RA9TAs than I will grab my 40 caliber P2000SK loaded with 180 grain HSTs over any 357 Sig*. I know some people love the Sig cartridge, and they are welcome to it, but I fail to see any advantage in using 357 Sig instead of 40 S&W for self defense. Less muzzle blast combined with 26% greater bore diameter sells me on the 40 over the Sig.

* My P239 and P229 40s both have 357 Sig barrels I don't use anymore. My G32 has had about 1000 357 Sig rounds through it when I first bought it in 2001, since then all but a couple hundred rounds through it have been 40s shot through the OEM 23 barrel. I have nothing against the 357 Sig, I just don't care to bother with it.

Glolt20-91
02-04-2012, 01:07
First off that may be your only purpose for having a handgun but it is not mine. I bought my 460XVR because I wanted a giant revolver that leaves the 44 magnum in the dust. It does that quite readily even with the understudy 454 Casull load. Second the Colt Trooper I posted does carry quite well in a holster, the Bianchi 5BN comes to mind. Third the 357 Sig only matches the 357 magnum within a very narrow frame of use. Outside that limited window the 357 magnum is capable of way more than the 357 Sig.

So I shouldn't bother owning this 42 ounce 5.5" Ruger?

http://i42.tinypic.com/1zq9bh1.jpg

Putting aside long history the 357 magnum has as a self defense/police cartridge the OP asked if the magnum and Sig are equal. They are not. As far compact and carryable goes, if I want more hitting power than my 26 has with its 127 grain +P+ RA9TAs than I will grab my 40 caliber P2000SK loaded with 180 grain HSTs over any 357 Sig*. I know some people love the Sig cartridge, and they are welcome to it, but I fail to see any advantage in using 357 Sig instead of 40 S&W for self defense. Less muzzle blast combined with 26% greater bore diameter sells me on the 40 over the Sig.

* My P239 and P229 40s both have 357 Sig barrels I don't use anymore. My G32 has had about 1000 357 Sig rounds through it when I first bought it in 2001, since then all but a couple hundred rounds through it have been 40s shot through the OEM 23 barrel. I have nothing against the 357 Sig, I just don't care to bother with it.

I think there's only a small percentage of forum members who are trained to carry a wheelgun, that would include fast reloads using speed loaders or moonclips. During cold weather and when wearing heavy, zipped up overcoats; access to a shoulder rig can be easier than IWB/OWB carry. Like you, I like the Bianchi setup (X15 clamshell)for either a M686/6" or Trooper Mk III/6" loaded with 140gr XTPs or 158 JHP/JSPs. If going light, I prefer 125gr JSPs over hollow points, no clog ups and they penetrate deeper because they don't expand as wide.

The shoulder rig setup also makes for easier access if one is strapped in and stopped for traffic.

Unless one has shot a 6" mag, it's hard to explain its precision accuracy combined with fast multiple target acquisition. I worked with a felony squad detective from another state who carried a M27/6" (158s) in a shoulder rig, tuned trigger that was a little smoother than my M66/4"; I preferred the M27. Anyway, he was an excellent shooter and was able to do things with his M27 that I couldn't do with the M66.

While the 6" can be difficult to conceal, at 6'1"/218 the shoulder holster works well in my body size and it has advantages over the 4".

In comparing cold split times on four targets, I could get a G17 with practice 115/FMJs to match the 686 times with full magnum loads, but I couldn't match the accuracy.

Your presentation for a 357mag/6" carry combined with extensive ammunition choices is a very valid argument and it has a lot going for it, just visit the Federal ammunition website to make a comparison between the two calibers. :)

English
02-04-2012, 06:04
First off that may be your only purpose for having a handgun but it is not mine. I bought my 460XVR because I wanted a giant revolver that leaves the 44 magnum in the dust. It does that quite readily even with the understudy 454 Casull load. Second the Colt Trooper I posted does carry quite well in a holster, the Bianchi 5BN comes to mind. Third the 357 Sig only matches the 357 magnum within a very narrow frame of use. Outside that limited window the 357 magnum is capable of way more than the 357 Sig.

So I shouldn't bother owning this 42 ounce 5.5" Ruger?

http://i42.tinypic.com/1zq9bh1.jpg
....

The OP asked if they were equal without specifying equal for what. I must admit I assumed he meant for self defence but apart from that it would be probably be possible to produce 357SIG performance from a 9mm fired from a pistol with something like a 15 to 18 inch barrel so we need a sensible means of comparing revolvers and auto pistols. As the 18 inch barrel pistol demonstrates, we have to use size to do that and, quite apart from capacity, the revolver looses out on that basis for self defence.

Even your 460XVR can be carried in a holster but it is not concealable in most commonly worn clothing. Equally, your Tropper is concealable but not with the versatility and range of clothing of a 4 inch barrel auto pistol. Appendix position and small of back are not possible. it really needs a jacket and shoulder holster or non concealed hip holster.

The Ruger .22 is a gaming pistol designed to make small groups on paper. its accuracy makes it useful for hunting small game but its weight and length makes it a not very desirable training pistol relative to self defence. I have an old Browning which fits the same role but neither have much relationship to what I think the OP was asking, but perhaps he would tell us just what he was asking.

English

G26S239
02-04-2012, 09:02
I think there's only a small percentage of forum members who are trained to carry a wheelgun, that would include fast reloads using speed loaders or moonclips. During cold weather and when wearing heavy, zipped up overcoats; access to a shoulder rig can be easier than IWB/OWB carry. Like you, I like the Bianchi setup (X15 clamshell)for either a M686/6" or Trooper Mk III/6" loaded with 140gr XTPs or 158 JHP/JSPs. If going light, I prefer 125gr JSPs over hollow points, no clog ups and they penetrate deeper because they don't expand as wide.

The shoulder rig setup also makes for easier access if one is strapped in and stopped for traffic.

Unless one has shot a 6" mag, it's hard to explain its precision accuracy combined with fast multiple target acquisition. I worked with a felony squad detective from another state who carried a M27/6" (158s) in a shoulder rig, tuned trigger that was a little smoother than my M66/4"; I preferred the M27. Anyway, he was an excellent shooter and was able to do things with his M27 that I couldn't do with the M66.

While the 6" can be difficult to conceal, at 6'1"/218 the shoulder holster works well in my body size and it has advantages over the 4".

In comparing cold split times on four targets, I could get a G17 with practice 115/FMJs to match the 686 times with full magnum loads, but I couldn't match the accuracy.

Your presentation for a 357mag/6" carry combined with extensive ammunition choices is a very valid argument and it has a lot going for it, just visit the Federal ammunition website to make a comparison between the two calibers. :)
My brother worked in Southern Utah with an cop who frequently carried a 29 4" and reloaded for the whole small dept. I believe he used mid loaded 240 grain swc's that he was very accurate with. Auto pistols are great and I have way more of them than revolvers but revolvers definitely have their own benefits. I had a 6" 586 back in the 1980s that I got hard up and had to sell, it was a sweet gun. :wavey:

481
02-04-2012, 09:23
So I shouldn't bother owning this 42 ounce 5.5" Ruger?

http://i42.tinypic.com/1zq9bh1.jpg




Those lacking any real-world experience with handguns (AirSoft™ doesn’t count), self-defense and concealed carry will be quick to discount the Ruger MKII as a training pistol for its weight and size forgetting that the Ruger MKII weighs as much as an empty M1911A1 (37-42 ounces unloaded) and that the pistol in its MKI and MKII iterations was used by the U.S. ARMY as a training pistol while the M1911A1 was the U.S. military's official sidearm.

Despite what the armchair experts would have you believe, the Ruger MKII is a perfectly valid training platform for the purpose of self-defense since the skills you refine using the Ruger MKII will transfer to any other firearm that you use.

I'd keep that MKII. They don't make 'em like that anymore. :cool:

unit1069
02-04-2012, 09:44
They do, I have both (124-grain XTP 9mm and 124-grain XTP .357sig bullets). The .357sig version is only available in loaded ammo.

I have some Fiocchi 124-grain Extrema XTP .357sig ammo and am wondering if anyone knows which XTP bullet is loaded in this cartridge.

I also have Hornady XTP in both .357sig weights that company offers so now I know I've got the lighter bullet designed for the caliber. I had assumed Hornady only had a single 124-grain bullet for .355".

And I am now assuming that the 147-grain Hornady bullet in the Hornady ammo is specifically designed for .357sig and not the 147-grain 9mm bullet. Does that sound right for those of you who load/reload?

PersonOfInterest
02-04-2012, 22:50
I have some Fiocchi 124-grain Extrema XTP .357sig ammo and am wondering if anyone knows which XTP bullet is loaded in this cartridge.

I also have Hornady XTP in both .357sig weights that company offers so now I know I've got the lighter bullet designed for the caliber. I had assumed Hornady only had a single 124-grain bullet for .355".

And I am now assuming that the 147-grain Hornady bullet in the Hornady ammo is specifically designed for .357sig and not the 147-grain 9mm bullet. Does that sound right for those of you who load/reload?

The 147gn XTP in the factory 357sigs currently is a specific projectile they made for that very load, old pictures ive seen of the load they were using the original 147gn sold as components. As for 124gn XTP used by hornady - there factory load does not use the regular 124gn XTP thats sold as components - ive shown side by side comparison pictures on here before and ill go take some now just to show - all the Hornady factory loads i have seen in 357sig using the 124gn (look) like there loaded with 125gn 357 cal XTP's (i doubt they actually are) but id say hornady use the same projectile casing with the Cannelure to make them for use in the 357sig.

As Bob has already commented i have used the 124gn Loaded past 1300fps for culling and it does work however it will break apart over 1300fps, i keep it around 1250fps in my 9mm handloads.

PersonOfInterest
02-04-2012, 23:22
Heres 3 pics, 1st is the comparison of the 147gn XTP handloaded with a 147gn next too it and the factory load (its shinier) and the box from which it came. The other 2 are the 124gn Hornady factory loading straight from its box (look closely at both factory loads and youll see a cannelure at the case mouth) next to the 124gn Factory load you can see a 124gn XTP .355 cal - not the projectile used in the factory loading. Itd be great if Hornady also sold the projectile they make for use in there factory loads.
http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j227/shaneme28/Hornady357compjpg.jpg
http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j227/shaneme28/Hornady357124gnComp1jpg.jpg
http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j227/shaneme28/Hornady357124gnComp2jpg.jpg

Glolt20-91
02-05-2012, 23:22
The 147gn XTP in the factory 357sigs currently is a specific projectile they made for that very load, old pictures ive seen of the load they were using the original 147gn sold as components. As for 124gn XTP used by hornady - there factory load does not use the regular 124gn XTP thats sold as components - ive shown side by side comparison pictures on here before and ill go take some now just to show - all the Hornady factory loads i have seen in 357sig using the 124gn (look) like there loaded with 125gn 357 cal XTP's (i doubt they actually are) but id say hornady use the same projectile casing with the Cannelure to make them for use in the 357sig.

As Bob has already commented i have used the 124gn Loaded past 1300fps for culling and it does work however it will break apart over 1300fps, i keep it around 1250fps in my 9mm handloads.

Thanks for posting the pics. Looks like the ogive scant resembles the 125gr design, do you think the cannelure helps eliminate bullet setback? Looks like Hornady has stepped up to the plate marketing both bullet weights for the 357SIG.

The 9mm/147gr XTP is a boat tail design and is also designed for medium size game in addition to personal defense, do you know if the 147gr/SIG XTP is also a boat tail design? If so, that would make for a nice long distance combination. IIRC, one ballistic gel test showed the 357SIG/147gr XTP with a penetration of about 19", is that what you are getting in your culling operations?

What kind of split times are you getting with the SIG, and do you think it's worth the cost of a new pistol, say over the 9mm or 357mag? :)

Thanks again for your pics and input, top notch as always. :)

PersonOfInterest
02-06-2012, 01:28
Thanks for posting the pics. Looks like the ogive scant resembles the 125gr design, do you think the cannelure helps eliminate bullet setback? Looks like Hornady has stepped up to the plate marketing both bullet weights for the 357SIG.

The 9mm/147gr XTP is a boat tail design and is also designed for medium size game in addition to personal defense, do you know if the 147gr/SIG XTP is also a boat tail design? If so, that would make for a nice long distance combination. IIRC, one ballistic gel test showed the 357SIG/147gr XTP with a penetration of about 19", is that what you are getting in your culling operations?

What kind of split times are you getting with the SIG, and do you think it's worth the cost of a new pistol, say over the 9mm or 357mag? :)

Thanks again for your pics and input, top notch as always. :)

No worries Bob always like to jump in :) well as for the 147gn Factory load from Hornady - i actually only bought 1 box just to do some testing, havent been out to any of the big farms with the goat populations in a while, but i may be going to new farm come July - if i do ill be trying the 124gn +P Gold Dots in 9mm and i may also try some of the 147gn Hornday factory loads in the 357sig.

Ive used the 124gn Factory loads from Hornady on Goats - ive shot 3 dead and 2 big Roo's - they were exceptionally good, all shots i made were pretty much instant stops some of which caused and alot of blood loss, i do have a feeling the 147gn load will basically be through and through shots.

The factory load projectile dosent actually have a boat tail - interesting i thought, i tryed out 3 on a wet pack i made it was 20" of soaked newspaper wrapped in pallet wrap plastic - i fired 2 shots and they both went through and through and there was no way of finding them! after that i decided id put something behind it to stop it, i used a 2x4" plank to do so, bullet went through all 20" - hit the plank penetrated about half an inch bounced back and ended up on top of the wet pack. :wow:

As for split times - well i shoot IPSC on a regular basis and ive used both guns, ive looked over a few videos ive filmed of me shooting - i do have to admit i am quicker with the 9mm but the difference is small and when ive been out shooting on farms - i dont see a difference to be honest im just as quick on target with both guns. I honestly think they are worth getting - but as for your circumstances seeing as you have a 38 super and more than a few 357mags - maybe not, for a guy who only has a couple of guns its definately worth having mostly due to the fact you can switch out the barrel and have a .40 or even a 9mm conversion. But hey if you need an excuse for a new gun - ill say go for it.

I think the cannelure could be there to avoid setback or it could be there to hold the jacket onto the core - good question, obviously here i cant carry day to day but as far as my farm goes - the rules dont count there and im always armed - now i did carry my 31 loaded with that load alot and i cant say i ever saw setback on the load - i did however see it (only slightly) on the Gold Dots so theres a chance thats why its there.

Anyway hope thats some help, ill post some pics of that recovered 147gn XTP that hit the plank so you can see the rear of it, i have some 135gn GD's ill load up in the 357mag and try later, i know its designed for short barrel guns but id be interested to see how it performs at higher speeds.

Take care buddy.

PersonOfInterest
02-06-2012, 05:35
Heres 2 pics of the recovered 147gn XTP from the wet pack that went through and hit the plank - if you look close at the 1st pic youll notice wood embedded in amongst where it had expanded then hit.
http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j227/shaneme28/147gnXTPRec1jpg.jpg
http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j227/shaneme28/147gnXTPRec2jpg.jpg

L Pete
02-06-2012, 10:48
You guys are giving me a headache.....

I agree, the Sig matches the Mag for one range of loadings. Otherwise, the Mag is far superior.

dkf
02-06-2012, 12:09
Heres 3 pics, 1st is the comparison of the 147gn XTP handloaded with a 147gn next too it and the factory load (its shinier) and the box from which it came. The other 2 are the 124gn Hornady factory loading straight from its box (look closely at both factory loads and youll see a cannelure at the case mouth) next to the 124gn Factory load you can see a 124gn XTP .355 cal - not the projectile used in the factory loading. Itd be great if Hornady also sold the projectile they make for use in there factory loads.
http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j227/shaneme28/Hornady357compjpg.jpg
http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j227/shaneme28/Hornady357124gnComp1jpg.jpg
http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j227/shaneme28/Hornady357124gnComp2jpg.jpg

Thanks for posting those pics. Thats exactly what I've found as well. I just didn't have pics to post.:wavey:

fredj338
02-06-2012, 12:52
You guys are giving me a headache.....

I agree, the Sig matches the Mag for one range of loadings. Otherwise, the Mag is far superior.

I believe that was the original question though?? Take two aspirin, call back in the morning.

PersonOfInterest
02-08-2012, 03:43
Thanks for posting those pics. Thats exactly what I've found as well. I just didn't have pics to post.:wavey:
No worries - i read your comment that said exactly what i was getting at :supergrin: its interesting to see what they did - those projectiles work incredibly well on living things and through barriers (car doors etc). Great Load all round.

Glolt20-91
02-08-2012, 21:04
No worries - i read your comment that said exactly what i was getting at :supergrin: its interesting to see what they did - those projectiles work incredibly well on living things and through barriers (car doors etc). Great Load all round.

Pics were great!

Loaded up some 125gr Gold Dots in 38Super to duplicate Speer's 357SIG offerings and 124gr XTPs to duplicate Wilson's ammunition with the goal to compare them with the Super and 357mag 125gr XTPs. Don't know how it will work out, but it'll be interesting to learn how they compare heads up. :)

PersonOfInterest
02-10-2012, 00:36
Pics were great!

Loaded up some 125gr Gold Dots in 38Super to duplicate Speer's 357SIG offerings and 124gr XTPs to duplicate Wilson's ammunition with the goal to compare them with the Super and 357mag 125gr XTPs. Don't know how it will work out, but it'll be interesting to learn how they compare heads up. :)
Ok good stuff - i look forward to hearing how you went, id put money on that the 357cal XTP's get better penetration and dont fragment like the .355 124gn'rs - however for what the 124gn is designed for and if you work within its parameters its a great projectile - its my all purpose 9mm load ive found, im 50/50 on using the 124gn +P 9mm's in Gold Dot (once i see actual damage to something living ill stay that way) and off the top of my head with all the 9mm 124/125gn Projectiles on offer i cant think of one better.