The new Russian assault to replace the AK-74M, the AK-12 [Archive] - Glock Talk

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esh325
01-25-2012, 13:45
I love the AK, but come on it took you guys 65 years to finally fix the safety and other design issues? I'm impressed though. I was a bit suprised they didn't show 6.5 grendel or other new caliber in the picture. Perhaps that means they aren't going to make one or they just haven't announced it. Either way, I really want one. Hopefully in the future they will make Saiga sporting versions of the new model.
http://uploads.ru/i/1/S/o/1So0y.jpg
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-QfX5maGndhI/Tx-yA33hifI/AAAAAAAAAn0/45rcG48Y5nw/s400/z_28b9c606.jpg
http://world.guns.ru/assault/rus/kalashnikov-ak-12-e.html
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qbzToym0lhU

CTfam
01-25-2012, 13:51
Interesting...

Rally Vincent
01-25-2012, 13:54
New rifle? They can't even afford to feed their Army. Lol.

fnfalman
01-25-2012, 14:02
I don't see the thumb lever safety as an improvement. With the other safety, you wipe your hand down the receiver and it'll go on Fire. No problem with using it if you were to wear heavy gloves/mittens either.

However, four-stacks 60-rounds mags...I can dig it, probably stole the idea from Surefire.

PAGunner
01-25-2012, 14:05
Pretty much the same rifle, just different furniture. Also looks like it will be available in 7.62x51, that would be nice.

esh325
01-25-2012, 14:05
Pretty much the same rifle, just different furniture. Also looks like it will be available in 7.62x51, that would be nice.
Not at all. Read the link and they've done many improvements to the design.



I don't see the thumb lever safety as an improvement. With the other safety, you wipe your hand down the receiver and it'll go on Fire. No problem with using it if you were to wear heavy gloves/mittens either.

However, four-stacks 60-rounds mags...I can dig it, probably stole the idea from Surefire.
Improvement or not, it certainly isn't a detractor. They didn't steal it. The 60 round magazine idea has been around a long time with the Russians. They just got to implanting it just now. If they stole anything, I think they stole many of the rifles features from aftermarket improvements made for the rifle in the United States and other countries. Krebs custom did the dust cover pictanny rail thing long before. The thumb safety from the Finnish Valmet/Galil.

Andrewsky
01-25-2012, 14:27
Be careful going to that link. You'll get a virus.

ancient_serpent
01-25-2012, 14:33
Looks...kinda crappy.

esh325
01-25-2012, 14:36
Looks...kinda crappy.
It does look a bit ugly, yes. Better looking then some of these plastic fantastic rifles coming out though.

raven11
01-25-2012, 14:38
Pretty much the same rifle, just different furniture. Also looks like it will be available in 7.62x51, that would be nice.

I think they figured out when going through a all new rifle (AN-94) that it would be too expensive to re-equip everyone so they are going for small improvements ,al la M-16 A1,A2,A4 that won't cost much yet still have some improvement over what they have now

triggerjerk
01-25-2012, 14:40
I like it.
Interesting how they stuck with the rock and lock mag system.
I assume this is an interim redesign, nothing meant to be too radical.

esh325
01-25-2012, 14:45
I like it.
Interesting how they stuck with the rock and lock mag system.
I assume this is an interim redesign, nothing meant to be too radical.
I think they would need to make totally new magazines for a straight up and in mag system. Could be wrong though. I forgot to mention that it's still a prototype. Perhaps they might change that in the future.

fnfalman
01-25-2012, 14:47
I like it.
Interesting how they stuck with the rock and lock mag system.
I assume this is an interim redesign, nothing meant to be too radical.

Because unlike the side button system, there's no mechanical weakness in that rock & lock system. You can mount a 200-rounds drum into the mag well and there will be no issues with the mag sagging too low to properly feed.

esh325
01-25-2012, 14:53
Because unlike the side button system, there's no mechanical weakness in that rock & lock system. You can mount a 200-rounds drum into the mag well and there will be no issues with the mag sagging too low to properly feed.
That sounds plausible. It doesn't necessarily need a have a side button system for the magazine to go straight up. Think of the PPS43 or how most submachine magazines guns go straight up in the mag well, but don't have a side button like an AR15.

USDefender
01-25-2012, 15:03
I don't see the thumb lever safety as an improvement. With the other safety, you wipe your hand down the receiver and it'll go on Fire. No problem with using it if you were to wear heavy gloves/mittens either.

However, four-stacks 60-rounds mags...I can dig it, probably stole the idea from Surefire.


+1

As a 'lefty,' I find the older 'AK-design' to be 'just where it needs to be' in terms of ergos, shell-ejection, the lever safety, etc. That's as opposed to newer rifle designs that, all too often, treat the non-right-handed end user as an after-thought.

I think it's great that Russia is coming out with a 'newer' rifle, though. Means more 'surplus AKs' on the market for us here in the States... ;)

fnfalman
01-25-2012, 15:07
I forgot that the Italian Spectre submachine gun also had multiple stacks mags too.

Glock30Eric
01-25-2012, 15:09
Did it improve the accurate issue?

esh325
01-25-2012, 15:16
Did it improve the accurate issue?
I never thought there was an accuracy issue with the AK design to begin with, but it says this version has new rifling to improve accuracy. As far as what that new rifling is, I don't know.

USDefender
01-25-2012, 15:18
I never thought there was an accuracy issue with the AK design to begin with...


Especially not after the Ruskies came out with the 5.45 cartridge.

jp3975
01-25-2012, 16:04
I think they would need to make totally new magazines for a straight up and in mag system. Could be wrong though. I forgot to mention that it's still a prototype. Perhaps they might change that in the future.

Krebs has a modification that allows for this.

Spiffums
01-25-2012, 16:48
What design issues? Take off the safety and kill everything that needs killing. Put safety back on.

arclight610
01-25-2012, 17:00
Any internal functioning differences?

rich52us
01-25-2012, 17:01
Is it 922r compliant?:whistling:

esh325
01-25-2012, 17:27
Any internal functioning differences?
Nothing major it seems so far. Three round burst,full auto,semi auto. Bolt is attached to the piston and can attached to either left or right side.

smokin762
01-25-2012, 18:45
Is it 922r compliant?:whistling:

This one? Nope.:supergrin:

If you do see them here though, I am sure it will be just a knock off and not as good. Thanks daddy Bush. :upeyes:

collim1
01-25-2012, 19:13
I like it.
Interesting how they stuck with the rock and lock mag system.
I assume this is an interim redesign, nothing meant to be too radical.

I am not a fan of the rock and lock mags or the mag release. I know you can learn to do it quick, but it is not as natural as the AR design.

I wonder if the bolt locks back on the last round?

esh325
01-25-2012, 19:22
I am not a fan of the rock and lock mags or the mag release. I know you can learn to do it quick, but it is not as natural as the AR design.

I wonder if the bolt locks back on the last round?
On closer inspection, it does have a button mag release I believe.
http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/ak_12_rifle_4-tfb.jpg

DAIadvisor
01-25-2012, 19:31
Looks like they went on "cheaper than dirt" and accessorized a standard AK. Oh well... I guess a new design was too much to expect after 65 years.

esh325
01-25-2012, 19:43
Looks like they went on "cheaper than dirt" and accessorized a standard AK. Oh well... I guess a new design was too much to expect after 65 years.
There isn't any need to reinvent the wheel. The AR15 is still very much the same 55 year old design.

DAIadvisor
01-25-2012, 19:47
There isn't any need to reinvent the wheel. The AR15 is still very much the same 55 year old design.

While I agree with that statement, I still would expect some kind of redesign. Even if you can't come up with any original ideas, there are so many great guns to rip off from, yet they continue to make ugly, 40s era looking stuff.. Maybe I just expect too much from the motherland..

esh325
01-25-2012, 19:55
While I agree with that statement, I still would expect some kind of redesign. Even if you can't come up with any original ideas, there are so many great guns to rip off from, yet they continue to make ugly, 40s era looking stuff.. Maybe I just expect too much from the motherland..
Aesthetics is the least of their concerns, as it should be. And it's still a prototype I believe. Things could change.

390ish
01-25-2012, 19:58
New rifle? They can't even afford to feed their Army. Lol.

They have never done a good job of feeding their army.

427
01-25-2012, 20:06
I don't see what the big deal is. It's just an evolution of the basic design.

FLIPPER 348
01-25-2012, 20:48
There isn't any need to reinvent the wheel. The AR15 is still very much the same 55 year old design.


The good guys will be using some version of the AR-15 and the bad guys will be using some version of the AK-47 until there is a replacement for the conventional ammo being used by both sides.
...an evolution away from the bullet/powder/case/primer system

triggerjerk
01-25-2012, 20:50
On closer inspection, it does have a button mag release I believe.
http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/ak_12_rifle_4-tfb.jpg
Hmm. Maybe it works both ways like the arx160.

esh325
01-25-2012, 20:52
The good guys will be using some version of the AR-15 and the bad guys will be using some version of the AK-47 until there is a replacement for the conventional ammo being used by both sides.
...an evolution away from the bullet/powder/case/primer system
Exactly.

collim1
01-25-2012, 20:56
On closer inspection, it does have a button mag release I believe.
http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/ak_12_rifle_4-tfb.jpg

Very cool. I like the Russian guns. This is an improvement IMO.

gbhamm2
01-25-2012, 21:05
I love how the people in the vid were just sitting there holding their ears. Also they looked like a Streamlight TLR-1 on the pistol..

Reswob
01-25-2012, 22:54
That sounds plausible. It doesn't necessarily need a have a side button system for the magazine to go straight up. Think of the PPS43 or how most submachine magazines guns go straight up in the mag well, but don't have a side button like an AR15.

But if the mag is inserted by just pushing it straight up into the magwell, the only thing holding it in as some kind of bar pushing sideways against a slot cut into one side of the magazine. An AK mag is supported by pretty good sized lugs at the front and back.

On closer inspection, it does have a button mag release I believe.
http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/ak_12_rifle_4-tfb.jpg

Chances are the button is simply linked to the paddle (like an MP5). They would have to completely redesign the mags and magwell to eliminate the 'rock-n-lock' mags.

Wurger
01-25-2012, 23:44
AN-94 had a lot more going for it. Was it too expensive to refit the entire soviet forces?

jp3975
01-26-2012, 05:34
AN-94 had a lot more going for it. Was it too expensive to refit the entire soviet forces?

The AN 94 is a much more expensive gun to produce.

Quiet
01-26-2012, 05:42
However, four-stacks 60-rounds mags...I can dig it, probably stole the idea from Surefire.
Other way around.

Izhmash was working on quad stacked AK mags back in the early-1990s.
The economic collapse of the Soviet Union/Russian Federation slowed development.

Besides, everyone is stealing the quad stack magazine idea from the Finns. Who were using quad stacked 50 round Suomi magazines back in the 1940s.


Brief timeline summary of quad stack magazines...
1940s = Lahti KP-31 50 round magazine
1980s = SITES Spectre 30 round & 50 round magazines
1990s = Izhmash RPK-74M/AK-74M 60 round magazines
2010s = Surefire AR15/M16 60 round & 100 round magazines
2010s = Magpul AR15/M16 60 round magazine
2010s = US Palm AK47 30 round & 45 round magazines

esh325
01-26-2012, 18:19
AN-94 had a lot more going for it. Was it too expensive to refit the entire soviet forces?
Expensive was one part. Reliability might have been another issue.

8-Ball
01-26-2012, 18:49
While I agree with that statement, I still would expect some kind of redesign. Even if you can't come up with any original ideas, there are so many great guns to rip off from, yet they continue to make ugly, 40s era looking stuff.. Maybe I just expect too much from the motherland..

Why would you expect a "rediesign" on a weapon that is widely known to be one of the simplest and most reliable on the planet?

Ugly? Go spend a couple thousand on a "pretty" gun and leave the cheaper "40s era looking stuff" to the guys who need simplicity reliability on the battle field. I'm sure they won't mind.

If it's not broke, don't fix it.

NIB
01-27-2012, 01:36
Why would you expect a "rediesign" on a weapon that is widely known to be one of the simplest and most reliable on the planet?

Ugly? Go spend a couple thousand on a "pretty" gun and leave the cheaper "40s era looking stuff" to the guys who need simplicity reliability on the battle field. I'm sure they won't mind.

If it's not broke, don't fix it.

Pretty silly to think that way. Technology on the battlefield has changed quite a bit in the past 10 years. Gone are the days of fighting with only iron sights. From this moment on, all wars will be fought with red dot sights, IR lasers, and night vision scopes mounted on your weapon.

And why not update a combat rifle while your at it. Remember the AK-47 was designed at the time to be cheaply, mass produced and issued to even the lowest of peons with absolute minimal training. Those days are gone as well.

Andrewsky
01-27-2012, 08:01
Pretty silly to think that way. Technology on the battlefield has changed quite a bit in the past 10 years. Gone are the days of fighting with only iron sights. From this moment on, all wars will be fought with red dot sights, IR lasers, and night vision scopes mounted on your weapon.

And why not update a combat rifle while your at it. Remember the AK-47 was designed at the time to be cheaply, mass produced and issued to even the lowest of peons with absolute minimal training. Those days are gone as well.

Actually I think this electronic revolution with the firearm accessories is only getting started. For example, I imagine that in the near future, the old Aimpoints and ACOGs will even be obsolete. It can't be long before scopes with microprocessors in them become commonly used. In the near future I wouldn't be surprised if even regular infantrymen weren't issued scopes that could detect things like ambient temperature, humidity, elevation, wind, angle of the rifle relative to the ground, and make adjustments to the reticle accordingly.

Meanwhile the workings of the modern firearm have not been significantly improved on since John Moses Browning.

FLIPPER 348
01-27-2012, 08:46
And why not update a combat rifle while your at it. Remember the AK-47 was designed at the time to be cheaply, mass produced and issued to even the lowest of peons with absolute minimal training. Those days are gone as well.



Your knowledge of the history of the AK-47 is poor.

some reading you need:

Amazon.com: The Gun (9780743270762): C. J. Chivers: Books@@AMEPARAM@@http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51e3vbN2LNL.@@AMEPARAM@@51e3vbN2LNL

sulaco
01-27-2012, 09:23
Haha, oh wow. Ok. Only in Russia do the media and other "guests" get to stand on a live-fire range and watch their compatriots try out "new" gun designs without eye or ear protection. It's no wonder the mafia is in control of the Russian Federation.

That "new" gun looks like something from a really crappy second tier video game. I am sure it works fine and every third Russian farmer can use it, but really? New?

At least they had the man, Mikhail Kalishnikov there, even though he did look like he just pooped himself and was wondering if anyone else noticed.

Diesel McBadass
01-27-2012, 10:15
Should be a cool gun, btw an-94s are not that great, they litterally have a string and pulley type deal inside them and have reliabiulity issues with their huge cost.

fnfalman
01-27-2012, 12:11
What do optics advancement have to do with a rifle's operating mechanism?

With a couple of pieces of plastic or metal, I can mount any optic to any rifle.

As far as the AK was designed for stupid peasants, I didn't realize that you need to be a PhD rocket scientist to operate the Mattel Toy.

8-Ball
01-27-2012, 18:01
Pretty silly to think that way. Technology on the battlefield has changed quite a bit in the past 10 years. Gone are the days of fighting with only iron sights. From this moment on, all wars will be fought with red dot sights, IR lasers, and night vision scopes mounted on your weapon.

And why not update a combat rifle while your at it. Remember the AK-47 was designed at the time to be cheaply, mass produced and issued to even the lowest of peons with absolute minimal training. Those days are gone as well.

Like fnfalman said, red dot sights, IR, NV, etc. evolving has nothing to do with changing the mechanics of a rifle.

As for updating the rifle, why? There is nothing that has been invented that makes the AK47 obsolete for military use. ( I.e. Springfield trapdoor vs. Muzzleloader)

Also, military rifles are still designed to be cheap, mass produced, and usable with minimal training.

Just curious, does your jump wing avatar represent a real badge?

josey88
01-28-2012, 18:32
I have a 7.62x54R PSL , a converted 20" Saiga .223 and a 7.62x39 VZ-58 . Of all of those guns I would take the Czech VZ-58 over the others any time ... hell , I think I would even choose it over my AR-15 if I need to make a fast decision ...
Having said so , I am thru with all that eastern crap (not including Czech firearms , of course) ...
From now on I am into AR-10s . FALs and the like. No more stamped crap , no more rivets and loose tolerances .

AK_Stick
01-28-2012, 18:43
Like fnfalman said, red dot sights, IR, NV, etc. evolving has nothing to do with changing the mechanics of a rifle.

As for updating the rifle, why? There is nothing that has been invented that makes the AK47 obsolete for military use. ( I.e. Springfield trapdoor vs. Muzzleloader)?


Well there are many things about the design of the AK that are less than stellar.

The safety/selector placement sucks.

Scoping one, can be a headache, and adding accessories rerquires an aftermarket fore-grip and brings all sorts of issues with maintaining zeros.

The rock and lock mags work, but are significantly slower than the more common push button release.

This pretty much just addresses the issues that have become standard features on other weapons.

esh325
01-28-2012, 19:05
I have a 7.62x54R PSL , a converted 20" Saiga .223 and a 7.62x39 VZ-58 . Of all of those guns I would take the Czech VZ-58 over the others any time ... hell , I think I would even choose it over my AR-15 if I need to make a fast decision ...
Having said so , I am thru with all that eastern crap (not including Czech firearms , of course) ...
From now on I am into AR-10s . FALs and the like. No more stamped crap , no more rivets and loose tolerances .
Buy a milled AK then. There's honestly nothing wrong with a stamped receiver. I have a VZ 58 and I thought the only thing it did better then the AK is the lighter weight and BHO. It's still a great firearm though.

esh325
01-28-2012, 19:10
Well there are many things about the design of the AK that are less than stellar.

The safety/selector placement sucks.

Scoping one, can be a headache, and adding accessories rerquires an aftermarket fore-grip and brings all sorts of issues with maintaining zeros.

The rock and lock mags work, but are significantly slower than the more common push button release.

This pretty much just addresses the issues that have become standard features on other weapons.
Not really a headache if you buy good quality mounts. I have two scoped AK's. Not that the M1A is difficult to mount optics for, but I found it easier to get optics on my AK then M1A.

josey88
01-28-2012, 19:47
Buy a milled AK then. There's honestly nothing wrong with a stamped receiver. I have a VZ 58 and I thought the only thing it did better then the AK is the lighter weight and BHO. It's still a great firearm though.

A milled AK is the same crap but milled ... sorry . Nothing wrong with it , but not my thing anymore . I have them , as you can see on the pics , upgraded and customized and they all work perfectly , but no more railed side mounted scopes, etc etc .
A comparison between a VZ-58 and an AK is something where the AK always lose ... Weight , length , accuracy , easiness of cleaning and disasembly , BHO , magazine weight(are made of aluminum) , milled receiver , safety system , striker trigger system group , last shot open receiver , short stroke piston ... I can go on
The Czechs took the AK design and made it perfect .
My AR-15 is really a beauty ... scoped and upgraded(1 to 7" twist) , but when I lift the two together one on each hand I realize that this Czech little rifle is so damn advanced and such a pleasure to carry and shoot . Mine has a PK-23 red dot installed on a side rail mount .
Here is a pic of my VZ-58, the Saiga and the AR-15 and the other is from my PSL :
http://i255.photobucket.com/albums/hh125/josey88/SANY1504.jpg
http://i255.photobucket.com/albums/hh125/josey88/011-19.jpg

esh325
01-28-2012, 20:14
A milled AK is the same crap but milled ... sorry .
A comparison between a VZ-58 and an AK is something where the AK always lose ... Weight , length , accuracy , easiness of cleaning and disasembly , BHO , magazine weight(are made of aluminum) , milled receiver , safety system , striker trigger system group , last shot open receiver , short stroke piston ... I can go on
The Czechs took the AK design and made it perfect .
My AR-15 is really a beauty ... scoped and upgraded , but when I lift the two together one on each hand I realize that this Czech little rifle is so damn advanced and such a pleasure to carry and shoot . Mine has a PK-23 red dot installed on a side rail mount .
A milled Bulgarian or Chinese AK is far from being crap. Have you owned a milled AK? I didn't find my VZ 58 to be more accurate then any of my Russian or Chinese AK's. Just my experience. The difference in length is minimal. Ease of dissembly and cleaning? The AK isn't easy to dissemble and clean? You can buy polymer magazines for the AK. Buy a krebs safety for the AK if you don't like the original. At least with the AK you don't have to be hassled with drilling a side mount to get optics on it. And with the VZ 58, you have to make sure your optics don't extend past the ejection port. The VZ 58 has a mushy plastic trigger pull inferior to most AK's trigger I've used. I don't know if the original steel trigger is like that though or it's just the trigger Czechpoint put in it that's crap.

josey88
01-28-2012, 20:44
I guess it is a matter of opinion
In any case, I am moving away from this to more quality weapondry, like AR-10s and a DSA Fal that I am planning to get this coming summer . I would keep the VZ-58 and perhaps I will sell the Saiga and the PSL later on

fnfalman
01-29-2012, 03:17
The safety/selector placement sucks.

No it isn't. See my post on why it's a good way to place the safety.

Scoping one, can be a headache, and adding accessories rerquires an aftermarket fore-grip and brings all sorts of issues with maintaining zeros.

And slapping on multi-rail handguards on M16/M4 is different how?

The rock and lock mags work, but are significantly slower than the more common push button release.

And it's also more solid just like I said before. Do the Russian style mag change and there's no issues with fast reload.

Diesel McBadass
01-29-2012, 08:24
A ak74 can run with most ar15s for accuracy. A 47 is still 3moa with good ammo which is more than enough to hit. The safety placement does suck, but a krebs lever helps that. Rock and lock mags work every time and are robust. This gun was made for use in any enviroment in the world. There are a lot of aftermarket parts on aks now, longer stocks, more hand filling grips, tons of rails, and to top it off scopes are easy to mount, the side rail is return to zero and can mount whatever you need.

Foxtrotx1
01-29-2012, 08:34
On closer inspection, it does have a button mag release I believe.
http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/ak_12_rifle_4-tfb.jpg

The large button is a Bolt Release.

AK_Stick
01-29-2012, 17:48
No it isn't. See my post on why it's a good way to place the safety.



And slapping on multi-rail handguards on M16/M4 is different how?



And it's also more solid just like I said before. Do the Russian style mag change and there's no issues with fast reload.

No matter how you argue, the placement still sucks. There's a reason everyone else has gone to a selector that doesn't require you to remove your hand from the pistol grip. Also, there's a reason the new "updated" AK went to it too. If it was such a great design from the start, how come everyone, INCLUDING the designer went away from it? (Thats called a hint in the buisness)

Secondly, the M series family now comes standard with 1913 rails. Now the AK will as well. Which is proving what I was saying. It was a fault with the original AK, and this is simply updating the AK to current standards.

Russian style mag changes, are still significantly slower than the much more standard push button magazine release. Yes, if you know what you're doing and you've practiced, you can do it quicker, but its still slower.


Like I said, there are issues with the original AK layout in todays battle field. This is nothing more than AK updating the classic design to offer the modern amenities found in everyone elses weapons.

Evidently the Russians felt like it needed to be updated, just because you're old and crotchety and have a thing for simple rifles, doesn't mean that they're what the modern battlefield wants/requires. This is nothing more than making the AK, which has fallen behind the times, updated to fit the modern battlefield.

Not really a headache if you buy good quality mounts. I have two scoped AK's. Not that the M1A is difficult to mount optics for, but I found it easier to get optics on my AK then M1A.

The M-14 also sucks at mounting optics. This has been partially dealt with, with some of the aftermarket mounts and the EBR series of rifles, but the true issue, is the exact same as the AK. You're taking a platform that was never designed to have a scope, and trying to add one later.

The scope rail on the AK was an afterthought, and while it worked, it mandated the AK use only scopes designed to accept the rail mount. All this is doing, is replacing a afterthought system with a mounting system that allows the end user to use a wide range of optics/lasers/lights.

esh325
01-30-2012, 12:14
No matter how you argue, the placement still sucks. There's a reason everyone else has gone to a selector that doesn't require you to remove your hand from the pistol grip. Also, there's a reason the new "updated" AK went to it too. If it was such a great design from the start, how come everyone, INCLUDING the designer went away from it? (Thats called a hint in the buisness)

Secondly, the M series family now comes standard with 1913 rails. Now the AK will as well. Which is proving what I was saying. It was a fault with the original AK, and this is simply updating the AK to current standards.

Russian style mag changes, are still significantly slower than the much more standard push button magazine release. Yes, if you know what you're doing and you've practiced, you can do it quicker, but its still slower.


Like I said, there are issues with the original AK layout in todays battle field. This is nothing more than AK updating the classic design to offer the modern amenities found in everyone elses weapons.

Evidently the Russians felt like it needed to be updated, just because you're old and crotchety and have a thing for simple rifles, doesn't mean that they're what the modern battlefield wants/requires. This is nothing more than making the AK, which has fallen behind the times, updated to fit the modern battlefield.



The M-14 also sucks at mounting optics. This has been partially dealt with, with some of the aftermarket mounts and the EBR series of rifles, but the true issue, is the exact same as the AK. You're taking a platform that was never designed to have a scope, and trying to add one later.

The scope rail on the AK was an afterthought, and while it worked, it mandated the AK use only scopes designed to accept the rail mount. All this is doing, is replacing a afterthought system with a mounting system that allows the end user to use a wide range of optics/lasers/lights.
I don't think you know very much about mounting optics with the M14 or AK. Designed or not designed, I have no real qualms about the optical solutions for the M14 or AK they have today. The M14 doesn't really suck at all for optics. My smith enterprise mount wasn't very difficult to install. Just required a little bit of knowledge and money to buy a decent mount. Just as good as an AR15 when it comes to optics once you have them on. Picatinny rail type mounts that allow wide use of optics utilizing the side mount plate of the AK have existed for quite some time now. The M14 and AK had to play to catch up with the M16 in regards to optics, but they've caught up now. As fas as the selector switch I agree. They didn't necessarily have to go with a thumb type safety, a simple Krebs custom type safety solves the problem too. The Russians weren't really thinking when they first designed the AK safety I think.

ContractSoldier
01-30-2012, 15:15
I love the AK, but come on it took you guys 65 years to finally fix the safety and other design issues? I'm impressed though. I was a bit suprised they didn't show 6.5 grendel or other new caliber in the picture. Perhaps that means they aren't going to make one or they just haven't announced it. Either way, I really want one. Hopefully in the future they will make Saiga sporting versions of the new model.
http://uploads.ru/i/1/S/o/1So0y.jpg
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-QfX5maGndhI/Tx-yA33hifI/AAAAAAAAAn0/45rcG48Y5nw/s400/z_28b9c606.jpg
http://world.guns.ru/assault/rus/kalashnikov-ak-12-e.html
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qbzToym0lhU

Very interesting, but I doubt that it will relace the AK74M. Just like the AN94 was suppose to replace the AK74M.

esh325
01-30-2012, 15:37
Very interesting, but I doubt that it will relace the AK74M. Just like the AN94 was suppose to replace the AK74M.
Even if they don't, there's still a good chance we'll see one in the states as export purposes was one of the big reasons it was made.

AK_Stick
01-31-2012, 02:02
I don't think you know very much about mounting optics with the M14 or AK. Designed or not designed, I have no real qualms about the optical solutions for the M14 or AK they have today. The M14 doesn't really suck at all for optics. My smith enterprise mount wasn't very difficult to install. Just required a little bit of knowledge and money to buy a decent mount. Just as good as an AR15 when it comes to optics once you have them on. Picatinny rail type mounts that allow wide use of optics utilizing the side mount plate of the AK have existed for quite some time now. The M14 and AK had to play to catch up with the M16 in regards to optics, but they've caught up now. As fas as the selector switch I agree. They didn't necessarily have to go with a thumb type safety, a simple Krebs custom type safety solves the problem too. The Russians weren't really thinking when they first designed the AK safety I think.

For a guy who starts his statement by saying I don't know much about mounting an optic on either of those platforms, you certainly haven't done your homework on them.


The SE mount is fairly new, in terms of that rifle, and was designed, pretty much because the other mounts that both the military, and the civilian competition crowd were using, were pretty much crap.

And as far as the AK, while they're common in the US, you don't really see any picitinny accy or optics mounts outside of NATO, so the argument that they've been around in the American Civilian world doesn't really mean much when we're talking about a military weapon, which was updated to offer the things the older platform was found lacking.

Sure the Russians could use the side rail to throw a PSO or PSOP or a Kobra on, but a built in dust cover rail, that you don't have to worry about floating zero's on, is much preferable to the side rail.


Yes, today we have some good optics mounts for rifles made in the 40's/50's. But for a long time, people have been fighting those issues. And just like the rifle in the OP, the product you see today, is because of that T&E.

skanless
01-31-2012, 02:05
New rifle? They can't even afford to feed their Army. Lol.

Have you been living in a cave? :dunno:

NEOH212
01-31-2012, 02:57
What ever became of the AN-94? :dunno:

Novocaine
01-31-2012, 15:49
Russia has 17 AKs in cosmoline for every active soldier. Chief designer sounds like retard in the interview.

I like the dust cover latch, telescopic stock and I like the safety (though markings are confusing), but I disagree with this If it was such a great design from the start, how come everyone, INCLUDING the designer went away from it? (Thats called a hint in the buisness) Things happened exactly the other way around. Kalashnikovís his original design, AK-46, had thumb operated left side mounted safety. Next model AK-47 obviously didnít. Kalashnikov had nothing to do with the design of AK-12.

AK selector/ejection port cover is an elegant solution. Count how many parts springs and pins AR has invested in safety and cover construction vs. single simple part. It is also snag resistant and is fast and easy to operate in large positive motions while wearing gloves. And it is very much lefty-friendly.
Still, I do like the new selector. Just hope detents are positive enough: four positions crammed into arc this short donít seem like a good idea. Don't get the 3 burst mode.

I donít like the new charging handle arrangement unless it is non-reciprocating and my bet it is reciprocating. I donít get how the sling arrangement works with the stock folded. In general would be nice to see pics with sling, cleaning rod and grenade launcher mounted.

How in the world the bolt catch would work with standard mags? My guess itís manually actuated only. Waste of money and reliability.

Fold-up dust cover could be good thing depending on how itís referenced/ pre-loaded fore and aft mechanically. Hope there is a limiter of sorts so it swings up just enough to remove the carrier. Otherwise it would be breakage-prone.

Donít get the rail on the gas block.

esh325
01-31-2012, 16:23
For a guy who starts his statement by saying I don't know much about mounting an optic on either of those platforms, you certainly haven't done your homework on them.


The SE mount is fairly new, in terms of that rifle, and was designed, pretty much because the other mounts that both the military, and the civilian competition crowd were using, were pretty much crap.

And as far as the AK, while they're common in the US, you don't really see any picitinny accy or optics mounts outside of NATO, so the argument that they've been around in the American Civilian world doesn't really mean much when we're talking about a military weapon, which was updated to offer the things the older platform was found lacking.

Sure the Russians could use the side rail to throw a PSO or PSOP or a Kobra on, but a built in dust cover rail, that you don't have to worry about floating zero's on, is much preferable to the side rail.


Yes, today we have some good optics mounts for rifles made in the 40's/50's. But for a long time, people have been fighting those issues. And just like the rifle in the OP, the product you see today, is because of that T&E.
I bought and put them on my rifles. I guess I don't know anything. Floating zeros? The Russians have been using pictanny mounts that use the side rail.
http://img189.imageshack.us/img189/9017/m1asmith.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/189/m1asmith.jpg/)

Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)

DAIadvisor
01-31-2012, 18:07
Aesthetics is the least of their concerns, as it should be. And it's still a prototype I believe. Things could change.

Cool looking "anything" was never Russia's strong skill (except maybe Mig-29 and Mi-24). And that was accidental.

fnfalman
01-31-2012, 18:32
No matter how you argue, the placement still sucks. There's a reason everyone else has gone to a selector that doesn't require you to remove your hand from the pistol grip. Also, there's a reason the new "updated" AK went to it too. If it was such a great design from the start, how come everyone, INCLUDING the designer went away from it? (Thats called a hint in the buisness)

Yes, it's called "business". They'd make whatever the market will bear even if it meant changing to an inferior design. The Soviets have learned how to be capitalists.

Secondly, the M series family now comes standard with 1913 rails. Now the AK will as well. Which is proving what I was saying. It was a fault with the original AK, and this is simply updating the AK to current standards.

How could it be a fault of the original design when optics weren't available in mass quantities back in 1947? Besides, before the built-in rail they have the sidemounted rail which is rock solid. Not to mention everybody and their brothers in the USA had already made solid optical mounts for the AK. Cosmetics have nothing to do with the operating mechanism of the rifle.

Russian style mag changes, are still significantly slower than the much more standard push button magazine release. Yes, if you know what you're doing and you've practiced, you can do it quicker, but its still slower.

So what? Better than having mags or drums falling out, or slipping and cause malfunctions while shooting. Besides, how much slower is slower and why should it make a difference? What sort of idiot would stand in the middle of nowhere changing mags aka Hollywood Keanu Reeves style instead of taking to the ground or find cover?


The scope rail on the AK was an afterthought, and while it worked, it mandated the AK use only scopes designed to accept the rail mount. All this is doing, is replacing a afterthought system with a mounting system that allows the end user to use a wide range of optics/lasers/lights.

The scope rails on the M16-series is also an afterthought. :dunno:

raven11
01-31-2012, 19:24
The scope rails on the M16-series is also an afterthought. :dunno:

looking back i'm surprised the AR world has evolved as much as it had in 20-ish years

http://ultimak.com/products/ap10604inst.jpg

http://simage1.sportsmansguide.com/adimgs/l/1/106814_ts.jpg

esh325
02-01-2012, 13:07
What ever became of the AN-94? :dunno:
Too expensive,complex, and maybe not as reliable. lol, I like your sig about 1911's.

RyanBDawg
02-18-2012, 00:55
Here is the news in English about it from Russia Today..

http://rt.com/news/ak-12-kalashnikov-rifle-253/

dooga
02-18-2012, 01:28
Gone are the days of fighting with only iron sights. From this moment on, all wars will be fought with red dot sights, IR lasers, and night vision scopes mounted on your weapon.
I very much doubt that. The world has not progressed much at all.

Could you imagine indigenous forces all recharging their dots and lasers in swamps, deserts, and jungles around the world?

Charging batteries are first world problems.

Novocaine
02-18-2012, 11:46
Charging batteries are first world problems.
All the reflex scopes adopted by the Russian military are tritium powered. Not to say irons are going anywhere but they are losing proposition as a primary sight. Soviets realized that during the Afghanistan war when soldiers were scrambling to outfit their guns with anything they could put their hands on, including sights from grenade launchers. That war resulted in Soviet doctrine to have optics on every infantrymanís rifle. Hence AK-74M. Collapse of the Soviet Union put an end to the exercise.

Here is the news in English about it from Russia Today..

http://rt.com/news/ak-12-kalashnikov-rifle-253/

How in the world they can claim itís as reliable as AK? Something as simple as swapping muzzle brake or hammer can lead to reliability problems. And I see significant changes here.

So cheese grater is not in a way of a standard grenade launcher, good deal. Also the rear sight looks very removable. But the charging handle seems to be reciprocating, unbelievable. Still want to see a pic with the butt folded and the sling attached.

Most of the video shows regular AKs. The pics of the production floor are titled AK-12 yet show standard AKs (full size and shortened).

The say Russian Ministry of Interior shows interest. Forgot to mention that Russian military canít legally buy these guns even if it was inclined to do so.

esh325
02-18-2012, 14:35
How in the world they can claim itís as reliable as AK? Something as simple as swapping muzzle brake or hammer can lead to reliability problems. And I see significant changes here.





The say Russian Ministry of Interior shows interest. Forgot to mention that Russian military canít legally buy these guns even if it was inclined to do so.
It's not a ridiculous claim to say it's a reliable as the AK. If it's true, time will only tell. Why can't they legally buy them?

NIB
02-18-2012, 15:21
I very much doubt that. The world has not progressed much at all.

Could you imagine indigenous forces all recharging their dots and lasers in swamps, deserts, and jungles around the world?

Charging batteries are first world problems.

You're telling me that in a thread about the Russian military upgrading to rails on their AKs to accept red dot scopes and lights.

fnfalman
02-18-2012, 16:25
I think that optical sights should be primary sights, but at the same time it's stupid to not have built-in SOLID iron sights as backup. I'm not talking about the detachable, plastic flip-up jobs like MAGPUL or its ilk. If you're going to make foldable sights, then mount that mutha to the gun solidly and make it out of steel.

When; not if but when, you need that iron sight, it better be there instead of gotten yanked off by wait-a-minute vines some ten klicks back.

esh325
02-18-2012, 18:09
I think that optical sights should be primary sights, but at the same time it's stupid to not have built-in SOLID iron sights as backup. I'm not talking about the detachable, plastic flip-up jobs like MAGPUL or its ilk. If you're going to make foldable sights, then mount that mutha to the gun solidly and make it out of steel.

When; not if but when, you need that iron sight, it better be there instead of gotten yanked off by wait-a-minute vines some ten klicks back.
Close range is another big reason to have iron sights still on the rifle.

fnfalman
02-19-2012, 03:09
Close range is another big reason to have iron sights still on the rifle.

Depends on how close is the range. At contact range, shoulder arms point very well.

Novocaine
02-19-2012, 13:08
It's not a ridiculous claim to say it's a reliable as the AK. If it's true, time will only tell.
The claim is misleading and unfounded. They make it sound like because the gun is based on AK it is as reliable as AK. In the first year of production AK underwent something like 500 engineering changes. It was polished into perfection on both design and manufacturing levels. That is AFTER being accepted by the military, meaning design was already more than decent.

Now just by looking at the new gun you can safely say every major action component was altered in one way or another. Except perhaps the bolt. When you start changing things, especially on a rifle so perfected, there are no guarantees the resulting gun will keep the key traits of its predecessor. Off the bat I can see several points that could compromise reliability relative to the parent gun. More complex trigger group, dropped dust cover, addition of the opening on the left side, addition of the bolt catch, swiveling charging handle, removable rear sight. I see that the gap between the carrier and dustcover is much smaller. I hear talks about ďmodularityĒ and ďsofter shootingĒ and Iím suspicious of these terms when we talk reliability. They are also another sign that some changes are more "core" than "subtle". You think non-dominant side forward mounted reciprocating handle is not more stoppage prone than the standard CH when shooting around the corners?

You're right, time will tell. Until that time this claim has no merit. And in a way this claim is presented (it's AK-based therefore it's AK-reliable) it has no merit at all.

Why can't they legally buy them?
Izhmash is constantly in and out of bankruptcy, gets sold, gets bought, gets restructured, etc. Every time it becomes new corporate entity. The current such entity is not licensed to sell to the military. Even though itís a part of a huge state-owned conglomerate that specializes in defense Izhmash canít sell to military under the Russian law. Army spetsnaz canít even field test this thing.

Izhmash is only allowed to cater to LE, civilian and export markets. They should make Saiga version of it if they are smart.

esh325
02-19-2012, 13:59
The claim is misleading and unfounded. They make it sound like because the gun is based on AK it is as reliable as AK. In the first year of production AK underwent something like 500 engineering changes. It was polished into perfection on both design and manufacturing levels. That is AFTER being accepted by the military, meaning design was already more than decent.

Now just by looking at the new gun you can safely say every major action component was altered in one way or another. Except perhaps the bolt. When you start changing things, especially on a rifle so perfected, there are no guarantees the resulting gun will keep the key traits of its predecessor. Off the bat I can see several points that could compromise reliability relative to the parent gun. More complex trigger group, dropped dust cover, addition of the opening on the left side, addition of the bolt catch, swiveling charging handle, removable rear sight. I see that the gap between the carrier and dustcover is much smaller. I hear talks about ďmodularityĒ and ďsofter shootingĒ and Iím suspicious of these terms when we talk reliability. They are also another sign that some changes are more "core" than "subtle". You think non-dominant side forward mounted reciprocating handle is not more stoppage prone than the standard CH when shooting around the corners?

You're right, time will tell. Until that time this claim has no merit. And in a way this claim is presented (it's AK-based therefore it's AK-reliable) it has no merit at all.




Perhaps it is a rash and bold statement. I suppose they are pressured to make such statements. The trigger mechanism is said to be redesigned, but I did not read it was more complex. An opening on the left side? Your other concerns are valid though. I looked at a video of the guy releasing the magazine on the AK-12 with a push button type release and I thought it looked like it could very easily accidently be pushed.

AK_Stick
02-19-2012, 16:40
Yes, it's called "business". They'd make whatever the market will bear even if it meant changing to an inferior design. The Soviets have learned how to be capitalists.



How could it be a fault of the original design when optics weren't available in mass quantities back in 1947? Besides, before the built-in rail they have the sidemounted rail which is rock solid. Not to mention everybody and their brothers in the USA had already made solid optical mounts for the AK. Cosmetics have nothing to do with the operating mechanism of the rifle.



So what? Better than having mags or drums falling out, or slipping and cause malfunctions while shooting. Besides, how much slower is slower and why should it make a difference? What sort of idiot would stand in the middle of nowhere changing mags aka Hollywood Keanu Reeves style instead of taking to the ground or find cover?




The scope rails on the M16-series is also an afterthought. :dunno:


You're right, thats exactly why I said that this was an update to bring the platform up to par, with the standard features everyone else has.

They're adding in the features that the older AK lacks.

I.E. rails, a well placed safety, push button mag release etc. These are things that people expect to be on a service weapon.

AK_Stick
02-19-2012, 16:42
I very much doubt that. The world has not progressed much at all.

Could you imagine indigenous forces all recharging their dots and lasers in swamps, deserts, and jungles around the world?

Charging batteries are first world problems.



And only first world nations militaries really matter in how wars are fought.


If you don't use that stuff, you're just making yourself a casualty on the modern battlefield.

Novocaine
02-19-2012, 17:56
The trigger mechanism is said to be redesigned, but I did not read it was more complex. I imagine you donít add three-burst mode to the trigger group by making it simpler. Even if you remove FA capability three-burst generally involves some sort of three toothed cam/ratchet/counter and tiny springs and is more complex and fragile mechanism.

An opening on the left side? Cutout for the reversible charging handle.

I looked at a video of the guy releasing the magazine on the AK-12 with a push button type release and I thought it looked like it could very easily accidently be pushed.
I think it has standard paddle mag release?

esh325
02-19-2012, 20:23
I imagine you donít add three-burst mode to the trigger group by making it simpler. Even if you remove FA capability three-burst generally involves some sort of three toothed cam/ratchet/counter and tiny springs and is more complex and fragile mechanism.

Cutout for the reversible charging handle.


I think it has standard paddle mag release?
Yes, it does add a little more complexity, does it make it significantly less reliable? I don't know. I still don't see the cut out on the left.
nev ak-12.avi - YouTube 0:49. It looks like a button release. On second thought, instead of making a weapon just as reliable as the AK, why not make a weapon MORE reliable then the AK? That's if, it doesn't negatively effect other features. There's never a limit to how reliable you can make a gun.

Novocaine
02-20-2012, 01:36
Yes, it does add a little more complexity, does it make it significantly less reliable?
I don't know if it's significantly less reliable. I know it's not AS reliable. Or durable.

I still don't see the cut out on the left. Charging handle can be flipped to the left side. Do you think it may need a slot to ride in? Look at :08

I still don't see the cut out on the left.
0:49. It looks like a button release. On second thought, instead of making a weapon just as reliable as the AK, why not make a weapon MORE reliable then the AK? That's if, it doesn't negatively effect other features. There's never a limit to how reliable you can make a gun.

At 0:49 the guy shapes his hand into a "birdie" and pushes the paddle with his middle finger. Hi finger does not cover the button which is manual bolt catch, another questionable feature of the gun. Also, the video says the gun is still in development stage and is slated for yearlong factory testing. After which it may be submitted for the army trials. But apparently tests are not necessary to proclaim it to be "as reliable as AKĒ :)

As to making gun more reliable than AK. Wonít happen. Other traits gain importance, guns have to become more complex to keep up. Reliability and durability have to be merely sufficient. I like what AEKís designer, Mr. Koksharov, had to say on the subject: ďI donít want to build a rifle that will survive a soldier in a foxhole. I want to build a rifle that will help a soldier in a foxhole to surviveĒ.