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mikekj
01-25-2012, 19:55
http://www.abaris.net/info/ballistics/handgun-stopping-power.htm

"380 ACP - The top rounds in this category were the Federal 90 grain Hydra-Shok and the CorBon 90 grain JHP+P which both rated a 70% one shot stop rating. While Federal 90 grain FMJ ammo was used in a whopping 245 shootings, it only achieved 55% one shot stops."

45 ACP - This caliber has been around for almost 100 years and is still the top rated round. More police agencies are using this round due to its proven stopping ability. The large diameter, heavy bullet is the basis for the "momentum" theory of stopping power however actual results in shootings show a mix of "light and fast" and "slow and heavy" rounds. The Remington 185 grain Golden Saber was involved in 148 shootings and caused 142 one shot stops for a 96% rating followed closely by the Federal 230 grain Hydra-Shok which caused 200 one shot stops in 211 shootings for a 95% rating. Eight of the 16 loadings examined rated above 90% one shot stops while 5 others rated in the 80s. The poorest stoppers were the Remington, Federal and Winchester 230 grain FMJ rounds which achieved 62% one shot stops.

Bodyarmorguy
01-25-2012, 20:04
So from this I read that 230 FMJ .45 acp is still nearly as effective as high tech hollow point +P .380 acp.:popcorn:

WoodenPlank
01-25-2012, 20:05
http://www.abaris.net/info/ballistics/handgun-stopping-power.htm

"380 ACP - The top rounds in this category were the Federal 90 grain Hydra-Shok and the CorBon 90 grain JHP+P which both rated a 70% one shot stop rating. While Federal 90 grain FMJ ammo was used in a whopping 245 shootings, it only achieved 55% one shot stops."

45 ACP - This caliber has been around for almost 100 years and is still the top rated round. More police agencies are using this round due to its proven stopping ability. The large diameter, heavy bullet is the basis for the "momentum" theory of stopping power however actual results in shootings show a mix of "light and fast" and "slow and heavy" rounds. The Remington 185 grain Golden Saber was involved in 148 shootings and caused 142 one shot stops for a 96% rating followed closely by the Federal 230 grain Hydra-Shok which caused 200 one shot stops in 211 shootings for a 95% rating. Eight of the 16 loadings examined rated above 90% one shot stops while 5 others rated in the 80s. The poorest stoppers were the Remington, Federal and Winchester 230 grain FMJ rounds which achieved 62% one shot stops.

You'll have a hard time finding very many people that advocate .45 hard ball for anything other than military use. 70% OSS rating under M&S data is pretty poor for JHP, especially when plenty of top loads in 9mm, .40, .45 and 357SIG rate well over 90%.

Gregg702
01-25-2012, 20:06
70% for the best performing 380 jhp vs 96% for the best performing 45 jhp. 380 is still a marginal round at best.

michael e
01-25-2012, 20:09
Wheres the info on 10mm? 45GAP?

snubfan
01-25-2012, 20:11
I read the whole thing and I get that "one shot stop" does not equal dropping dead, just incapacitated but all the numbers seem really high to me.

mikekj
01-25-2012, 20:16
70% for the best performing 380 jhp vs 96% for the best performing 45jhp. 380 is still a marginal round at best.

Yeah, but how many models of .45's can you conceal in your back (or front) pocket?

Without printing?

In running shorts?

That only weigh ounces, not pounds?

70% OSS is not too bad. And what about a doubletap. That ups the odds.

WoodenPlank
01-25-2012, 20:17
I read the whole thing and I get that "one shot stop" does not equal dropping dead, just incapacitated but all the numbers seem really high to me.

Or that the BG gave up.

Gregg702
01-25-2012, 20:21
Yeah, but how many models of .45's can you conceal in your back (or front) pocket?

Without printing?

In running shorts?

That only weigh ounces, not pounds?

70% OSS is not too bad. And what about a doubletap. That ups the odds.

No, but I have a pocketable 9mm, a pocketable .357 mag, and 3 pocketable .38 + P's that are much better man stoppers than any .380ACP.

mikekj
01-25-2012, 20:27
Remember, these not Grandpa's .380.

Ammunition has come a long way in the past 20 years.

I remember when a V6 couldn't climb a hill, and now their turning some real horsepower now.

New age. New technology.

Don't judge by bygone standards.

Bodyarmorguy
01-25-2012, 20:29
Yeah, but how many models of .45's can you conceal in your back (or front) pocket?

Your cell phone belongs in your pocket and pistol on your belt, not vice versa.


Without printing?.
I am 5'10/190 pounds...most common off-duty attire is cargo shorts and polo shirt. Carry gun is 5" Government Model in an IWB holster, spare mag and often a C2 Taser. No printing problem. And if yoou do print, who recognizes it as a gun? Other gun people? Shooter in mall in Utah walked around with half an AK47 hanging out from under his jacket and nobody took notice. Everyone thinks its your cell phone printing
In running shorts?

I can concurr here, but think maybe there are still other choices


That only weigh ounces, not pounds?


Concealed carry is not about comfort of conveniene, it's about committment. It is an area that I rarely compromise.

Gregg702
01-25-2012, 20:30
Remember, these not Grandpa's .380.

Ammunition has come a long way in the past 20 years.

I remember when a V6 couldn't climb a hill, and now their turning some real horsepower now.

New age. New technology.

Don't judge by bygone standards.

Ammo might have gotten better, but 38+P, 9mm, .357 mag, and .45 are much better defensive cartridges than .380, still.

GlockFish
01-25-2012, 20:34
Remember, these not Grandpa's .380.

Ammunition has come a long way in the past 20 years.

I remember when a V6 couldn't climb a hill, and now their turning some real horsepower now.

New age. New technology.

Don't judge by bygone standards.

Exactly. How old is that article? 20 years?

ChuteTheMall
01-25-2012, 20:38
One Shot Stop Ratings should be written on the box.:rofl:

cowboy1964
01-25-2012, 20:41
It's all relative. A .380 beats throwing rocks. But I'd prefer a .45 throwing Gold Dots.

Do you really want to try to stop a 250 lb muscle-bound felon with a round that only penetrates 8"?

.380 ACP Winchester Ranger T-Series JHP Ammo Test - YouTube

USDefender
01-25-2012, 20:44
I figure it's like what Deniro said in Ronin-- it's about putting the right 'tools in the toolbox' for the job... "I don't know...it's a toolbox..."

If I'm out in the woods, I'm probably gonna have the largest caliber I own in a holster on my belt. But when I'm in town, especially if I'm wearing a suit, sometimes a .380 handgun is better for keeping concealed while I'm in "certain circles."

I think it was Mas Ayoob who said, "Don't scare the horses." Sometimes, carrying a smaller handgun in .380 helps me not to do that.

Berto
01-25-2012, 20:51
So what is the Fuller index on .380acp?

Lior
01-25-2012, 20:56
1. One shot stops are less common when fired out of guns carried by LEOs against violent felons who are high on drugs at the time of discharge.
2. Most defensive uses of firearms in the United States are zero shot stops.
3. Frequently, if one is justified in shooting a person once, one is justified in shooting them multiple times in quick succession, further clouding the stats.

Do not be misled into believing that the term "one shot stop" is only a matter of terminal ballistics.

mikekj
01-25-2012, 20:56
It's all relative. A .380 beats throwing rocks. But I'd prefer a .45 throwing Gold Dots.

Do you really want to try to stop a 250 lb muscle-bound felon with a round that only penetrates 8"?

.380 ACP Winchester Ranger T-Series JHP Ammo Test - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HxpHOB132ak)

How deep inside your felons chest do you think the heart is?

3 inches, maybe? 4?

Bill Keith
01-25-2012, 20:57
Yeah, but how many models of .45's can you conceal in your back (or front) pocket?

Without printing?

In running shorts?

That only weigh ounces, not pounds?

70% OSS is not too bad. And what about a doubletap. That ups the odds.

The Glock 36:cool::cool::cool:

arclight610
01-25-2012, 20:57
What actually surprised me more is the overall effectiveness of FMJ rounds displayed in the study. Most of the major service calibers were in the 68-74% area for FMJ. That's pretty good for cheap plinking or SHTF stockpile ammo.

.380 is fine for me. If he doesn't drop in 1, there's 6 more available.

WoodenPlank
01-25-2012, 21:05
How deep inside your felons chest do you think the heart is?

3 inches, maybe? 4?

That's 8" in a simulant that doesn't account for bone, tendon, varying organ densities or voids in the torso.

Edit to add: Plus, what about oblique shots, or shots from the side where the bullet may have to penetrate an upper arm first? 8" is inadequate penetration for an SD load - period.

Kaybe
01-25-2012, 21:35
Every shooting situation is different. Shot placement is what counts. What might "stop" one person, will not stop another person. Each one is different. This "one shot" stop obsession is annoying. Keep shooting until they stop the threatening actions. Who cares how many rounds? Just survive and keep going. The only true "one shot" people are LE snipers; the rest shoot multiple times. That is why most of here carry guns to begin with- to survive and keep going. We don't shoot once, check for results, shoot again if results are not good. Sure, a .45 has better ballistics than a .380 all day long, but if it has to be concealed, the .380 will be there and the .45 will be at home. Each situation is different, do your best to live. Don't obsess over the numbers. Train with what you got. Have confidence with what you have. Live your life.

Caver 60
01-25-2012, 21:43
That's why I carry WWB full metal jackets in 380, only. Every other carry caliber, 9mm, 40 S&W, 45 ACP gets the best HP I can find.

I like that flat point on the Win round, but it still penetrates nice on many animals (four legged) that I've shot with 380.

I'm not the least worried about over penetration, since statistics show many more misses than hits in most self defense shootings.

Of course I don't plan on missing much. And based on the amount of small four legged animals I've shot with handguns (including 380), I think I'm at least a fair shot when no ones shooting back. Ha Ha.

USDefender
01-25-2012, 21:53
I just don't see what all the fuss is about... James Bond used a 7.65mm/.32acp for how long? And has made it through how many movies, now? http://freesmileyface.net/smiley/battle/james-bond.gif (http://freesmileyface.net)

NEOH212
01-26-2012, 02:55
Remember, these not Grandpa's .380.

Ammunition has come a long way in the past 20 years.

I remember when a V6 couldn't climb a hill, and now their turning some real horsepower now.

New age. New technology.

Don't judge by bygone standards.

Your right!









However, keep in mind that the same bullet technology that made the .380 better and more comparable to something better did the same thing to all the other calibers as well.

Any gun is still better than no gun. With that said, When I have a choice in the matter, it's no smaller than 9x19mm.

Even that being what it is, I still prefer that the first number in any caliber that I will carry in a semi automatic handgun will always start with a 4.

Narkcop
01-26-2012, 05:27
One shot stop is made a bigger deal than it needs to be. If I shoot someone I am pretty sure I'm gonna shoot them more than once. I carry a S&W Bodyguard or Ruger LCP a lot when off duty because I ALWAYS have a gun. 3 or 4 hp's in the upper body will stop anyone thats not high or a mental case. If they are high or mental then even a .45 likely wouldn't work.

H&K 4 LIFE
01-26-2012, 06:28
...Do you really want to try to stop a 250 lb muscle-bound felon with a round that only penetrates 8"?

How deep inside your felons chest do you think the heart is?

3 inches, maybe? 4?

Bear in mind, that's 8" of penetration in gelatin. Human beings are not comprised of gelatin. They are skin, tissue, muscle, fat, and bone. They are also alive, which means they move and usually do not stay stationary like a gelatin block as your shooting at them.

Take into account a shot possibly being taken at an odd angle or even through a barrier and the chances of a round that only penetrates 8" in test media penetrating deep enough to strike something vital becomes much less probable.

Every caliber has it's record of successful one shot stops and dismal failures where many rounds were expended on target yet still failed to stop. That is why you do not fire one round but shoot until the threat stops.

Bob Hafler
01-26-2012, 06:56
I've carried a .380 at times in the summer months,still do. I'm sure it will stop a BG's threat. Of course if I absolutely wanted to kill him outright I'd choose the 45 caliber. To be honest though I'm really not wanting kill anyone if I don't have to. If I can stop a threat to my family or myself and not have to kill anyone I'm cool. My permit gives me the right to defend myself, it doesn't say the right to kill someone intentionally. If I did then so be it, but that would not be my main objective. If I was a GI and in a war then that would be a different story.

Bilbo Bagins
01-26-2012, 07:06
Exactly. How old is that article? 20 years?

+1 Its been a long time since I seen someone quote Sanow and Marshall
one stop shot data.

dosei
01-26-2012, 08:15
Yeah, but how many models of .45's can you conceal in your back (or front) pocket?

Without printing?

In running shorts?

That only weigh ounces, not pounds?

70% OSS is not too bad. And what about a doubletap. That ups the odds.

Per the antiquated article you linked, the 9mm easily gets you over 90% stopping effectiveness compared to the 380. Invert that statistic...the 380 has a 3x higher failure rate as compared to the 9mm. Plenty of very small, very light, very good 9mm handguns out there to choose from. And since the 380 handguns are straight blow-back while the 9mm handguns are some form of locking breach/delayed blow-back, the 9mm handguns often are perceived to have less recoil than the 380.

All you have really shown is that the 380 is a very poor performer that offers no significant advantages.

Ruggles
01-26-2012, 08:37
.38 Super, .45ACP & .380ACP are the only handgun calibers I have. I have confidence in all of them but no way would I choose a .380 ACP JHP over .45 ACP FMJ to use in self defense. I think the .380 is underrated by many and overrated by a few.

CBennett
01-26-2012, 09:04
Yeah, but how many models of .45's can you conceal in your back (or front) pocket?

Without printing?

In running shorts?

That only weigh ounces, not pounds?

70% OSS is not too bad. And what about a doubletap. That ups the odds.

agreed 100% they(.380's) do have their uses...I wish I had one for stuff like that...I sold off my .380 Mustang II years ago as I just was not comfortable at that time with the ammo out for them and the chance of it to do what I wanted it to..stop a attack...With the ammo now days ive been thinking...or should say RE thinking the round..while id not use nor want to as my "primary" CC gun.

Id love one for those days times im just sitting around the house on a day off and the wife says can you go get Milk at the corner store...then instead of having to throw on my jeans( Im almost always am in wind/athletic/sweat pants on my down time when im not planning to go out or or when im coaching kids sports) belt gun....with the small .380 i could just throw a .380 in a pocket holster in the pocket of my athletic pants and off i go....same deal like another poster said with at the gym or beach...i COULD CC a .380 there probably not my Ruger SR9c :) .

BailRecoveryAgent
01-26-2012, 09:18
Your cell phone belongs in your pocket and pistol on your belt, not vice versa.


Amen brother! I have a friend who will go to the range and "train" with his G17 in a paddle holster, then go home and throw an LCP in his pocket with his gianormous cell phone on a belt holster.:dunno:

Rumbler_G20
01-26-2012, 09:33
Bummer. You should have looked a little deeper into the source of the data used to fabricate the statistics.

That "study" by Evan Marshall has pretty much been completely . . . poo-pooed, by experts for about 10 years now.


Further, and far more importantly, I am unaware of anyone on any side of this "argument" that denies the potential lethality of the .380ACP cartridge.

The issue is; time to incapacitation. In a real life real-world gun fight seconds count. Sometimes, fractions of a second make the difference between life and death.


However convenient it may be for the mouse gun proponents to ignore this, it doesn't change the fact that it is true. :dunno:


http://www.abaris.net/info/ballistics/handgun-stopping-power.htm

"380 ACP - The top rounds in this category were the Federal 90 grain Hydra-Shok and the CorBon 90 grain JHP+P which both rated a 70% one shot stop rating. While Federal 90 grain FMJ ammo was used in a whopping 245 shootings, it only achieved 55% one shot stops."

45 ACP - This caliber has been around for almost 100 years and is still the top rated round. More police agencies are using this round due to its proven stopping ability. The large diameter, heavy bullet is the basis for the "momentum" theory of stopping power however actual results in shootings show a mix of "light and fast" and "slow and heavy" rounds. The Remington 185 grain Golden Saber was involved in 148 shootings and caused 142 one shot stops for a 96% rating followed closely by the Federal 230 grain Hydra-Shok which caused 200 one shot stops in 211 shootings for a 95% rating. Eight of the 16 loadings examined rated above 90% one shot stops while 5 others rated in the 80s. The poorest stoppers were the Remington, Federal and Winchester 230 grain FMJ rounds which achieved 62% one shot stops.

Berto
01-26-2012, 09:39
THe .380 is a Godsend for folks that need the smallest handgun vs being unarmed, but it has well established limitations and OSS has no relationship with reality.

xcaliburelite
01-26-2012, 10:50
THe .380 is a Godsend for folks that need the smallest handgun vs being unarmed, but it has well established limitations and OSS has no relationship with reality.


This is very true. I carry a Taurus TCP every day, because the clothes I have to wear for work do not lend themselves to me concealing my G26 on my person. So I have the TCP in my back pocket in a wallet holster, and the G26 under the desk. Do I feel more comfortable with the abilities of my G26 and its 9mm cartridge? Of course I do.

But the funny thing is, I've never met anyone who complained about how ineffective the .380 is that is willing to stand in front of one. Ironic, isn't it?

Gregg702
01-26-2012, 11:00
This is very true. I carry a Taurus TCP every day, because the clothes I have to wear for work do not lend themselves to me concealing my G26 on my person. So I have the TCP in my back pocket in a wallet holster, and the G26 under the desk. Do I feel more comfortable with the abilities of my G26 and its 9mm cartridge? Of course I do.

But the funny thing is, I've never met anyone who complained about how ineffective the .380 is that is willing to stand in front of one. Ironic, isn't it?

Most don't claim .380 is ineffective, they claim it is less effective than 9mm and 38 spl +P, both of which can also be found in small, easily concealable packages. My CM9 doesn't print at all in a pocket holster or IWB. My LCR and J Frames are the same.

Rumbler_G20
01-26-2012, 11:01
. . .
But the funny thing is, I've never met anyone who complained about how ineffective the .380 is that is willing to stand in front of one. Ironic, isn't it?


I don't think "ironic" is the right word. Here, let me give you an example.


"I have a golf ball size rock in my hand. You are 6-feet away standing upright. May I please throw it as hard as I can at your forehead?"

Are you going to jump up yelling enthusiastically: " !! YES !!"


I'd bet not. To put it as politely as the English language will allow: your logic is severely flawed if that 'won't let themselves be shot with it' criteria is used in decision making. Severely. :wavey:

xcaliburelite
01-26-2012, 11:09
I don't think "funny" is the right word. Here, let me give you an example.


"I have a golf ball size rock in my hand. You are 6-feet away standing upright. May I please throw it as hard as I can at your forehead?"

Are you going to jump up yelling enthusiastically: " !! YES !!"


I'd bet not. To put it as politely as the English language will allow: your logic is severely flawed if that 'won't let themselves be shot with it' criteria is used in decision making. Severely. :wavey:

I think youre reading too much into what I said. My intent is that people complain about how they would never, ever carry anything less than a (insert personal favorite caliber here), but if it comes down to no gun, or smaller gun, the smaller gun choice will always win.

Edit: Also, I wasnt trying to be overly serious in my statement at all. I know its hard to tell context when reading text sometimes, and that I was being sort of silly in what I said. I do mean what I said, though. Id rather have a small gun than no gun any day, even if it is in a caliber that I dont fully believe in.

MLittle
01-26-2012, 11:14
"Sure, a .45 has better ballistics than a .380 all day long, but if it has to be concealed, the .380 will be there and the .45 will be at home."

Hey Bud.....speak for yourself......

My 45 is always on my hip and it conceals just fine, thank you very much!!

Caver 60
01-26-2012, 11:40
And since the 380 handguns are straight blow-back while the 9mm handguns are some form of locking breach/delayed blow-back, the 9mm handguns often are perceived to have less recoil than the 380.

Doesn't have much to do with this thread. But most of the later 380's have some form of locked breach.

Only one I know of that's straight blowback is the older Walther designs. And my steel Walther does kick harder than my plastic P3AT's.

Rumbler_G20
01-26-2012, 11:56
I think youre reading too much into what I said. My intent is that people complain about how they would never, ever carry anything less than a (insert personal favorite caliber here), but if it comes down to no gun, or smaller gun, the smaller gun choice will always win.

Edit: Also, I wasnt trying to be overly serious in my statement at all. I know its hard to tell context when reading text sometimes, and that I was being sort of silly in what I said. I do mean what I said, though. Id rather have a small gun than no gun any day, even if it is in a caliber that I dont fully believe in.


Sorry. I apparently did misinterpret. But please understand that that is because I've been carrying a full size full power defensive pistol concealed for about three decades now. Including; in a professional work environment.


I personally believe that in no small way the motivation to do - or not do - something has a very significant effect on one's ability to successfully do - or not do - something. :innocent:

xcaliburelite
01-26-2012, 12:14
I personally believe that in no small way the motivation to do - or not do - something has a very significant effect on one's ability to successfully do - or not do - something. :innocent:

I completely agree with you. Woody Allen said that 80% of success is just showing up. Just have to be motivated enough to show up. :winkie:

BuckyP
01-26-2012, 12:32
But the funny thing is, I've never met anyone who complained about how ineffective the .380 is that is willing to stand in front of one. Ironic, isn't it?


I don't think "ironic" is the right word. Here, let me give you an example.


"I have a golf ball size rock in my hand. You are 6-feet away standing upright. May I please throw it as hard as I can at your forehead?"

Are you going to jump up yelling enthusiastically: " !! YES !!"


I think you're reading too much into what I said. My intent is that people complain about how they would never, ever carry anything less than a (insert personal favorite caliber here), but if it comes down to no gun, or smaller gun, the smaller gun choice will always win.

Edit: Also, I wasnt trying to be overly serious in my statement at all. I know its hard to tell context when reading text sometimes, and that I was being sort of silly in what I said. I do mean what I said, though. Id rather have a small gun than no gun any day, even if it is in a caliber that I dont fully believe in.

The thing is, the comment about "you wouldn't want to stand in front of it" is frequently touted as justification for the effectiveness of a specific round, that others may question. I would not want to stand in front of a .22 short. Doesn't make it an effective or wise choice of carry.

That being said, it's still better than nothing. Most of us come to some level of compromise, unless you're hauling around an AR-15. Full size guns are the best option for most of us in the defensive handgun option, but for many they are not feasible for daily CCW.

glock_collector
01-26-2012, 12:33
As much as I rip on the 380, any cal is better than nothin..HOWEVER I was hit in the stomach with a 240? 44 MAG and I didnt go down, tumble, cry like a little itch ect... So all you armchair cal guys, I say what you see on tv and what is reality are WAY different.

xcaliburelite
01-26-2012, 12:47
As much as I rip on the 380, any cal is better than nothin..HOWEVER I was hit in the stomach with a 240? 44 MAG and I didnt go down, tumble, cry like a little itch ect... So all you armchair cal guys, I say what you see on tv and what is reality are WAY different.


Thats like how people complain when LEO's shoot a suspect 6 times, like they somehow had a way to know that every round had connected and was effective.

It's all good talk, and can be quite interesting. But few of us have much real world experience with various caliber bullets striking a human. To be honest, I hope I never gain that experience.

Rumbler_G20
01-26-2012, 13:15
. . . . Full size guns are the best option for most of us in the defensive handgun option, but for many they are not feasible for daily CCW.


Based on what? Because they are under five feet tall and 80 pounds? Because they are too cheap to buy quality gear and learn how to use it?


Believe me; I am NOT "super dude" and I have carried a full size full power defensive pistol concealed successfully for over three decades. Oh, and I don't dress in sweat pants and baggy sweatshirts. My normal summer attire is shorts, a t-shirt, athletic shoes, a 1911, two spare magazines, a Ruger LCR and two speed-strips, two knives and a flashlight.

It may not be really clear, but I'm really not trying to be argumentative. I am however not willing to stand by while "don't know how" is freely substituted for "feasibility" - that just ain't right. :crying:

xcaliburelite
01-26-2012, 13:27
It may not be really clear, but I'm really not trying to be argumentative. I am however not willing to stand by while "don't know how" is freely substituted for "feasibility" - that just ain't right. :crying:

Theres no crying in baseball! Or on glocktalk!

NG VI
01-26-2012, 13:30
Those figures are ridiculous. The authors of the 'study' excluded any shooting incident in which the shootee was hit more than once, they only included torso hits, and I have to reiterate, they only included single hits. If you don't have to shoot someone twice, the chances that they stopped doing what made you shoot them in the first place, is really, really high. Unless the shooter just blows.

Basically, that 'data' is useless and I'm not the only one occupying that position. .380 isn't a bad caliber, it allows for an ok amount of gun in a very small package, but these days there are service caliber pistols that aren't much bigger than the smaller .380s and are smaller than many of the older .380s. And carry has evolved in a big way over the last 30 years, and we have much better belts and holsters easily available now.

BuckyP
01-26-2012, 13:34
The thing is, the comment about "you wouldn't want to stand in front of it" is frequently touted as justification for the effectiveness of a specific round, that others may question. I would not want to stand in front of a .22 short. Doesn't make it an effective or wise choice of carry.

That being said, it's still better than nothing. Most of us come to some level of compromise, unless you're hauling around an AR-15. Full size guns are the best option for most of us in the defensive handgun option, but for many they are not feasible for daily CCW.

Based on what? Because they are under five feet tall and 80 pounds? Because they are too cheap to buy quality gear and learn how to use it?

Believe me; I am NOT "super dude" and I have carried a full size full power defensive pistol concealed successfully for over three decades. Oh, and I don't dress in sweat pants and baggy sweatshirts. My normal summer attire is shorts, a t-shirt, athletic shoes, a 1911, two spare magazines, a Ruger LCR and two speed-strips, two knives and a flashlight.

It may not be really clear, but I'm really not trying to be argumentative. I am however not willing to stand by while "don't know how" is freely substituted for "feasibility" - that just ain't right. :crying:

Well, first of all the way you highlighted my comment takes everything out of context. I fixed that for you here. I prefixed it with "for many", which you obviously chose to ignored. Based on?.. based on many people outright stating that it just doesn't work for them for EDC. Some people can't dress around it, usually due to work restrictions. Not everyone can wear shorts and t shirts daily.

Good to see you're not one of the many. :wavey:

Because they are too cheap to buy quality gear and learn how to use it?
t may not be really clear, but I'm really not trying to be argumentative

Seems clear that you are, actually. :dunno:

Rumbler_G20
01-26-2012, 13:41
Theres no crying in baseball! Or on glocktalk!

OK. I can live with that. :rofl:

And I'll take the opportunity to share some perspective.

I am mentoring a 12 year old petite girl in defensive skills. She looks more like 10 years old. She is the daughter of a dear friend of mine who is an officer of the court. Bottom line is that for real his position makes it plausible that his family could be at risk because of some of the . . . undesirables, he has to deal with.

So . . he has asked me to work with his family.

For the last several months his daughter's handgun of choice has been a government model 1911 in .45ACP. At this point she is well into working from concealed. Which she is doing 100% successfully - she had to learn and that took time, but she has. We know this because we have tested her using "gun people" as well as the general public.


Now, everyone is certainly free to take that for what it is worth to themselves. But I know for a proven fact that this "I carry a mouse gun because nothing else is plausible" is just plain . . . . inaccurate (read: crap). :tongueout:


Better xcaliburelite? :rofl::rofl:

xcaliburelite
01-26-2012, 13:46
:tongueout:


Better xcaliburelite? :rofl::rofl:


Very much so, thanks! :wavey:

And your story reminds me something my dad always says. Its better to have someone that has zero experience with shooting and firearms and to train them, than someone who already has their mind made up about what works or doesnt work for them.

And a government 1911? Thats pretty impressive, based on hand size vs grip size alone. Good job getting her involved in the hobby. Hopefully she will be a life long shooter/concealed weapon carrier.

Rumbler_G20
01-26-2012, 13:51
I virtually have to pry her off my M1A. I love that little girl. :elephant:


But in fairness to all . . she did have to work up to these weapons. She had to be taught recoil control just for starters. :wavey:

xcaliburelite
01-26-2012, 14:05
Too many guys think its funny to give a kid or their wife/gf way too much gun at first, thinking its a good joke. Thats a fine way to not only ruin their interest in guns, but possibly even turn anti gun. My gf's brother had a bad experience with a hunting rifle once, actually came out of his hand and hit him in the face. He's been anti gun ever since. Bad logic, but it happens.

Thx-1138
01-26-2012, 15:18
I'm a big fan of carrying the biggest gun that you can conceal in the biggest caliber that you can accurately shoot.


For years, I carried either a G17 or a G39. Never had a problem with the weight. Never had a problem with concealment.

Went from 370lb fat guy to a 195lb not fat guy. Still no problems concealing a full-sized Glock with the proper belt and holster.

But a year ago, I did something really radical. I sold my car and bought a bicycle. I ride it to work 4 days a week, and have taken up weekend and evening cycling for recreation and exercise.

And you know what? I just can't conceal a full-sized Glock anymore. Oh, sure, on rides around town on my commuter bike, wearing normal clothes, it's no problem. I'm sitting upright, wearing clothes that conceal just fine.

But on medium (20-50 miles) and longer rides (50-100+ miles), I gotta wear the 'cycling kit' to avoid nasty things like saddle sores, overheating, and such. At that point, a full-sized Glock just doesn't work anymore. And neither does a compact.

(BTW, I live in a city where open carry is illegal on public roads).

Times like that, I have a few choices: alter my lifestyle to accommodate the gun (give up the exercise that's keeping me fit and healthy); go without any firearm; carry a pocket .380.

If you carry a full-sized firearm all the time, be honest with us: how much time do you spend a week exercising? When you do, are you carrying your full-sized gun?

xcaliburelite
01-26-2012, 15:24
Went from 370lb fat guy to a 195lb not fat guy. Still no problems concealing a full-sized Glock with the proper belt and holster.



Congrats on the weight loss. As a fellow NC guy, Im curious where you ride 100+ miles. On the western end of the state, it would be up hill both way!

Alter-Ego
01-26-2012, 15:36
Wheres the info on 10mm? 45GAP?

Those rounds just dont count and are out dated

SpringerTGO
01-26-2012, 16:12
Your cell phone belongs in your pocket and pistol on your belt, not vice versa.


Concealed carry is not about comfort of conveniene, it's about committment. It is an area that I rarely compromise.

I've read some bs on gun forums, but this rates right up with the best of them.
I'll carry my handgun how I damn well please, thank you. And it has nothing to do with "commitment" or religion, or any other idiotic demands you think you have the right to place on me.

Gregg702
01-26-2012, 16:24
I've read some bs on gun forums, but this rates right up with the best of them.
I'll carry my handgun how I damn well please, thank you. And it has nothing to do with "commitment" or religion, or any other idiotic demands you think you have the right to place on me.
:goodpost::agree:

GlockFish
01-26-2012, 16:35
Wheres the info on 10mm? 45GAP?


They weren't invented yet - That article was written back when Clinton was President, a few months after Al Gore invented the internet.

Bodyarmorguy
01-26-2012, 17:14
I've read some bs on gun forums, but this rates right up with the best of them.
I'll carry my handgun how I damn well please, thank you. And it has nothing to do with "commitment" or religion, or any other idiotic demands you think you have the right to place on me.

My friend, I will refrain from personal insults unlike yourself. First, I will say that I am no idiot. Second, who brought religion into this? Next, I have placed no demand, idiotic or otherwise, on you. I merely state MY opinion, which I blieve that I still have the right to do. MY opinion is that cell phone goes in pocket, gun goes on hip. YOU have the CHOICE to do whatever YOU wish. I choose to be committed about my safety. Again, to coin my opinion as "BS" is uncalled for, there are others here who agree with my point of view, others who do not. Great place, America.

WarEagle32
01-27-2012, 00:22
I just do not feel adequately protected when I have just a 380 on me or just a 38. Both are just barely under powered for me IMO. I do prefer a 9mm as my main CCW. When loaded with pure copper Corbon DPX's the 9mm is perfect in a Glock 19 or 26 for CC for me. I wish I felt sufficiently say with just an LCP in my pocket, but going up against a thug armed with a Glock, most anyone would be in a lot of trouble!

legion3
01-27-2012, 03:20
Unless you wear cargo pockets all the time there are no true pocket sized 9mm pistols. Sure they can fit some pockets(but not all) but they are bigger, heavier and hard to draw. Most won't fit in suit or running pockets and often print big time.

Plenty of the new 380's will do thiz quite well.

Anyhow the "report" cited is ancient nonsense.

SpringerTGO
01-27-2012, 09:32
My friend, I will refrain from personal insults unlike yourself. First, I will say that I am no idiot. Second, who brought religion into this? Next, I have placed no demand, idiotic or otherwise, on you. I merely state MY opinion, which I blieve that I still have the right to do. MY opinion is that cell phone goes in pocket, gun goes on hip. YOU have the CHOICE to do whatever YOU wish. I choose to be committed about my safety. Again, to coin my opinion as "BS" is uncalled for, there are others here who agree with my point of view, others who do not. Great place, America.

You made a pretty all encompassing statement, when you told the world that guns belong on the hip.

Some manufacturers have gone so far as to name certain models "pocket models".
Several holster manufactures (who cater to LEO and other professionals) make pocket holsters. Let's not forget about ankle holsters as well. Small of back? Shoulder?
What do you tell an undercover LEO? Gee, you have to look unarmed, but have to carry your small handgun on the hip?
The fact of the matter is, that several handgun manufacturers and holster makers make products specifically to be concealed, in places other than the hip.

I'm sorry, it may sound rude. But BS really is the best I can call on the statement, that "handguns go on the hip".
And it is pompous to imply by saying "I am committed to my safety", that somehow people who disagree with you aren't. I'm sure every single person on this forum is concerned about their personal safety. That doesn't mean they have to carry a handgun on their hip.

gommer
01-27-2012, 09:47
96% doesn't mean much when you only carry it 20% of the time.

Not all folks can conceal even the sub-compact 45's.

I'm pretty sure I don't want to get shot by a .380.

Is a .45 better? Yes. Obviously, doesn't take rocket science to figure that one out. But, if you can't conceal it well and comfortably then get a gun that will.

You're better off with a reliable .22 then nothing. Get a gun or guns you can carry 100% of the time and don't let folks crap on it being a smaller caliber than the .454 casull they carry as their BUG on the ankle. :upeyes:


Good article, OP.

BuckyP
01-27-2012, 09:50
It just occurred to me, the is the metaphoric shooting equivalent to "size doesn't matter". :wow:
:outtahere:

series1811
01-27-2012, 09:52
Yeah, but how many models of .45's can you conceal in your back (or front) pocket?

Without printing?

In running shorts?

That only weigh ounces, not pounds?

70% OSS is not too bad. And what about a doubletap. That ups the odds.

Yep, a .380 in the pocket beats a .45 in the glove box, or an M-4 in the trunk.

windplex
01-27-2012, 09:54
i had ruled out a 380 for a 9. would like a small CCW weapon. perhaps modern SD ammo makes the 380 worth consideration again -- this is what occured to me after reading.

dosei
01-27-2012, 10:12
i had ruled out a 380 for a 9. would like a small CCW weapon. perhaps modern SD ammo makes the 380 worth consideration again -- this is what occured to me after reading.

You do realize that the article the op linked is over 20 years old...right?

xcaliburelite
01-27-2012, 10:35
They weren't invented yet - That article was written back when Clinton was President, a few months after Al Gore invented the internet.


And right before George W Bush invented pants.

Makes me want a snickers bar.

Bodyarmorguy
01-27-2012, 10:41
You made a pretty all encompassing statement, when you told the world that guns belong on the hip.

Some manufacturers have gone so far as to name certain models "pocket models".
Several holster manufactures (who cater to LEO and other professionals) make pocket holsters. Let's not forget about ankle holsters as well. Small of back? Shoulder?
What do you tell an undercover LEO? Gee, you have to look unarmed, but have to carry your small handgun on the hip?
The fact of the matter is, that several handgun manufacturers and holster makers make products specifically to be concealed, in places other than the hip.

I'm sorry, it may sound rude. But BS really is the best I can call on the statement, that "handguns go on the hip".
And it is pompous to imply by saying "I am committed to my safety", that somehSow people who disagree with you aren't. I'm sure every single person on this forum is concerned about their personal safety. That doesn't mean they have to carry a handgun on their hip.

again, my opinion and the school of thought that I subscribe to. The original post had nothing to do with working undercover. BTW, did that for almost 9 years in the narc unit so it's a subject that I know a little about. In fact it was during that time that I was involved in a shooting. The pistol I was carrying at the time? Commander size 1911.

You are correct, manufacturers do market pistols as pocket, etc, does that mean that it's the best way to carry?

I came back to edit as in retrospect I felt my closing remark was a little condescending and I was being sucked in.

Let me clarify in a manner that may sound a little less pompous. Following my shooting, as well as being involved in the investigation of many other Officer involved shootings, I committed myself to carrying a full size pistol. I do believe that some sacrifice what they carry in the name of fashion. I will sacrifice fashion in the name of safety. I could not think of a single scenario where I might need a firearm and would end up thinking "I wish I was carrying something smaller and lighter with no sights and a crappy trigger in a less powerful caliber." I choose not to develop a "better than nothing" mindset.

Notice the use of "I".....these are my opinions and my choices. This forum is a place for me to express my opinion, not forcing it on you or "the world."
Have a great day and stay safe.

mikekj
02-02-2012, 18:49
I just watched a documentary on the shooting of Pres. Reagan.

Hinkley got off six shots from an RG .22.

2 misses
1 hit on the Pres.
3 ONE SHOT STOPS

75% one shot stops from a .22? Now that's amazing.

RVER
02-02-2012, 20:04
Felons don't like getting shot, and they like getting shot multiple times even less...

1) Practice until you can draw and fire 3 shots / 3 feet / 3 seconds / center mass.
2) Repeat this PERFECTLY a minimum of 200 times and dry fire it at least 2000 more times at distances from 3 - 21 feet increasing the rate of fire to 5 rapid CM shots.
3) Now you have developed a practical muscle memory / skill level that can benefit from movement drills and caliber / bullet construction debates... NOTHING trumps accurate multiple shot placement.

USDefender
02-02-2012, 20:28
That's 8" in a simulant that doesn't account for bone, tendon, varying organ densities or voids in the torso.

Edit to add: Plus, what about oblique shots, or shots from the side where the bullet may have to penetrate an upper arm first? 8" is inadequate penetration for an SD load - period.


And, also, isn't it 6" of gelatin (or something like that) that equals human skin?


Felons don't like getting shot, and they like getting shot multiple times even less...



Now THIS is absolutely true. I once had a 'one shot stop' with a .22 magnum when I fired off a shot to discourage an attacker. Big ole' 6'2" former line-backer ran like a little girl... Probably made more yardage that day than he ever did on the gridiron.
:laughabove:

AA#5
02-02-2012, 21:57
Wheres the info on 10mm? 45GAP?

There isn't any because they couldn't find anything left of the victims.

kneedragger45
02-02-2012, 22:22
I carry an S&W Body Guard .380 on occassion when I cant carry my G27 or G26. I Keep it loaded with alternating round of Buffalo Bore +P 90g HP and +P 100g Hard Cast rounds. The +P 100g Hard Cast has been tested to 31 inches in gel.
J/S

cloudbuster
02-03-2012, 06:39
Year after year, these threads never change, they're like comfortable old friends. You can find the same phrases in them, usually verbatim, the same arguments. In the end, pretty much everyone agrees:

1. Bigger, more powerful rounds are more effective than smaller, less powerful rounds.
2. Bigger guns are less convenient to carry than smaller guns

I really don't care very much how people choose to balance those truths. It's no skin off my teeth whether someone carries a mini revolver in .22 short, a Glock in .357 SIG or a .500 Smith & Wesson revolver. It's kind of interesting that people get very passionate about defending their particular choices.

Chup
02-03-2012, 06:58
Looks like out dated info to me. If you feel good about carrying a 380, go for it. I may not know much but I know I can hit what I shoot at with my 357s and that's what I,m carrying. Every day all day Two 357 Snubs are with me.

The Idea is to stop the attack.

John43
02-03-2012, 07:53
Watched some of the crime shows on tv(actual crimes) where numerous people were killed with .380 single shots.

WoodenPlank
02-03-2012, 08:11
Watched some of the crime shows on tv(actual crimes) where numerous people were killed with .380 single shots.

A kill and a stop are not always one and the same.

Texas357
02-03-2012, 16:24
The only self defense shooting of which I have close personal knowledge was with a .380.

The attacker actually mocked the LCP when his victim drew it.

One shot, COM, DRT. The police who showed up had trouble believing it at first, just one little bullet from that one little gun.

It was one of the frangible safety-slug type loads.

Gregg702
02-03-2012, 16:33
I just watched a documentary on the shooting of Pres. Reagan.

Hinkley got off six shots from an RG .22.

2 misses
1 hit on the Pres.
3 ONE SHOT STOPS

75% one shot stops from a .22? Now that's amazing.

There is a huge difference between an assassination attempt and self defense.

WoodenPlank
02-03-2012, 16:35
The only self defense shooting of which I have close personal knowledge was with a .380.

The attacker actually mocked the LCP when his victim drew it.

One shot, COM, DRT. The police who showed up had trouble believing it at first, just one little bullet from that one little gun.

It was one of the frangible safety-slug type loads.

Shot placement, shot placement, shot placement.

However, when shot placement is less than ideal, .380 can easily come up lacking. Personally, I prefer not to take that chance, and won't carry anything less than 9mm +P or .38 Spl. +P.

Metal Angel
02-03-2012, 18:02
I bought a 19 a year and a half ago and thought I would always carry it... Winter is easy in my supertuck, but during the summer I just can't. I always wear jeans and my shirts have enough room to cover my waist without much printing, and if that was the end of the story then I would carry it year round. The trouble is, I have two young kids and I am constantly bending over to pick them up or put them in car seats or they are riding on my shoulders. All these actions cause my shirt to ride up and expose the grip of my 19. Naturally, I'm now in the market for a pocket 9. I'll probably still wear it in a super tuck most often, but it will be nice to be able to slip it in a pocket holster if I'm in a hurry.

That being said, if the pocket 9 still gets left at home like the 19 does, then I will be buying a LCP. I don't think the 380 is great, but it beats the hell out of whatever I left at home.

But If I had to be in a gunfight with someone, and I could choose his caliber out of the common carry loads, I would want him to have a 380... Whatever that tells you.

Javelin
02-03-2012, 18:04
That 70% does not really sit well with me. Added in the fact the % of folks' 380 pocket pistols that will probably jam or FTF on that second shot makes it really sad.

And yes I have a 380 I carry... just sad is all.

Ruggles
02-03-2012, 19:07
I carry an S&W Body Guard .380 on occassion when I cant carry my G27 or G26. I Keep it loaded with alternating round of Buffalo Bore +P 90g HP and +P 100g Hard Cast rounds. The +P 100g Hard Cast has been tested to 31 inches in gel.
J/S

Just got some of the Buffalo Bore 100gr HC rounds. Are now my carry round in my Sig 238, I think the 100gr HC are a great choice in .380 SD ammo these days.

As far as the caliber itself it has a role it fills very well IMO. :wavey:

Teecher45
02-03-2012, 21:20
The pocket .380 fills certain rolls, and until they make a .45 the same size as the LCP it will have to do in certain situations.
Personally I carry a 27 (.40) or a 21 (.45), why?
When I started shooting competitions I went with the .45. I like the forgiveness of the larger diameter round. If I pull a round a little the larger diameter gives me a better chance of still cutting a line and getting the points.
Now think of that line being an artery, or something else important to human existence.

kneedragger45
02-03-2012, 21:30
Just got some of the Buffalo Bore 100gr HC rounds. Are now my carry round in my Sig 238, I think the 100gr HC are a great choice in .380 SD ammo these days.

As far as the caliber itself it has a role it fills very well IMO. :wavey:


:agree:

Texas357
02-04-2012, 19:54
And since the 380 handguns are straight blow-back while the 9mm handguns are some form of locking breach/delayed blow-back, the 9mm handguns often are perceived to have less recoil than the 380.

All you have really shown is that the 380 is a very poor performer that offers no significant advantages.

Not all .380 pistols are blow-back.