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happyguy
01-27-2012, 07:44
Even New York’s second most powerful Democrat and a strong gun control advocate, Assembly Speaker Sheldon Silver thinks that tourists who accidentally break the state’s strict carry laws shouldn’t have their lives destroyed.




http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2012/01/17/should-new-york-tourists-have-their-lives-destroyed-because-concealed-carry/

Just thought I'd stir things up again. :whistling:

Regards,
Happyguy :)

HerrGlock
01-27-2012, 07:58
Honestly, I don't know. I'm torn on this one.

Rule of law. Constitution. Home rule. Honest mistake (no mens rea).

If *I* were running the DA's office in NYC and had to answer to he who put me in the position I would probably let all of the ones who did nothing except illegal CCW and had no priors plead to disorderly conduct, take their gun and call it a day.

Second offense they wouldn't get to plead, though.

Pete250R
01-27-2012, 08:38
common sense should prevail IMO.

Atomic Punk
01-27-2012, 08:39
common sense should prevail IMO.

agreed. but it is in new york.

Gunnut 45/454
01-27-2012, 08:51
Our opinions don't count - NYS will ruin your life if your stupid enough to go there with a pistol. They don't care about you it's all about taking your pistol and destroying it and your life! Think about it. They make you a felon-can never own or posses again - they get one more pistol to destroy-THATS THERE GOAL!! Its not about the law -your rights- IT'S ABOUT GUN CONTROL!:steamed:

acg8276
01-27-2012, 08:52
By LAURA ITALIANO
Last Updated: 7:02 AM, January 16, 2012
Posted: 6:55 AM, January 16, 2012


They’re fighting to save Private Ryan — from jail.
Marines across the country are rushing to the rescue of former fellow leatherneck Ryan Jerome, who is facing prison time after trying to check his Indiana-registered handgun at the Empire State Building on Sept. 27.
In multiple blog and chat-group postings and letter-writing campaigns — some aimed directly at NYPD Commissioner Ray Kelly, a Marine Vietnam veteran — the Marines are urging that the charges be dropped against their “brother.”
“It is just overwhelming, the love and support I am receiving from my fellow Marines,” said Jerome, 28, a former private first class whose father and grandfather were Marines and who was a TOW gunner before his honorable discharge in 2005.
http://www.nypost.com/rw/nypost/2012/01/16/news/web_photos/jerome--300x300.jpg
Ryan Jerome



“It’s definitely emotionally devastating, looking at maybe facing 3 1/2 years prison,” he said in a phone call from his home in West Bend., Ind., referring to the mandatory minimum sentence he could face under New York’s strict gun laws.
The irony that someone so highly trained and trusted to keep America safe might be thrown into prison — for a .45-caliber Ruger that he had legally registered in his home state and that he was actually trying to check with authorities — has not been lost on his Marine brethren.
Boston lawyer and Marine vet Dave Bruce has organized an online campaign through leatherneck.com that will send its first 14 e-mails to Kelly, Mayor Bloomberg and DA Cyrus Vance today.
“The theme is not to have Mr. Jerome treated like a common thug. He deserves to be treated better,” Bruce explained.
The soft-spoken Jerome is a jeweler and had traveled to New York with $15,000 worth of gold he was taking to a Long Island refinery, said his lawyer, Mark Bederow.
Before coming, he had actually checked online with his phone to see whether his Indiana carry permit was reciprocal with New York, Bederow said. A cellphone glitch confused him.
The city has seen a spate of tourist gun arrests in recent months.

The campaign is much larger than it was when this article first came out. If any want to help with the campaign you can send your letters to:
mailto:usmcin1963@gmail.com (usmcin1963@gmail.com)

hawgrider
01-27-2012, 08:55
Its real simple just stay the hell out of NY.
Sooner or later the thugs will kill everyone off :2gun:

Gunnut 45/454
01-27-2012, 08:59
acg8276
Well I hate to say it but the Marines have a loosing fight! NYS does not have a State Constitutional right to bare arms! They don't recognize the COTUS 2nd, totally blow off the SCOTUS rullings on the 2nd! Do you really think the give a **** about that Marine?
He will do prison time- will be a felon cause the law as written in NY gives no options ! The Guncontrol freaks there made sure it could never be subverted!:steamed:

John Rambo
01-27-2012, 08:59
You can sensationalize it all you want. But fact of the matter is these are the laws and these people broke them. Do I agree with or like the laws? No. But when I go into New York I leave my guns at home because thats the law in their state.

OctoberRust
01-27-2012, 09:02
Our opinions don't count - NYS will ruin your life if your stupid enough to go there with a pistol. They don't care about you it's all about taking your pistol and destroying it and your life! Think about it. They make you a felon-can never own or posses again - they get one more pistol to destroy-THATS THERE GOAL!! Its not about the law -your rights- IT'S ABOUT GUN CONTROL!:steamed:


The not being allowed to own or possess isn't NY's fault...


...It's the brady act of 1986, and those who signed it in. Even if we respected state rights of NY that'd ban CC, if we were charged with whatever from them, we'd still be allowed to possess if we didn't have these unconstitution FEDERAL GUN LAWS applied. Keep EVERYTHING on a state level, both good and bad.

acg8276
01-27-2012, 09:07
acg8276
Well I hate to say it but the Marines have a loosing fight! NYS does mnot have a State Constitutional right to bare arms! They don't recognize the COTUS 2nd, totally blow off the SCOTUS rullings on the 2nd! Do you really think the give a **** about that Marine?
He will do prison time- will be a felon cause the law as written in NY gives no options ! The Guncontrol freaks there made sure it could never be subverted!:steamed:

Believe it or not the NYC crowd can be selective in they're prosecution choices.

... in December 2011, Tea Party (http://www.wpix.com/topic/politics/tea-party-movement-ORCIG000068.topic) Patriots founder Mark Meckler was arrested at LaGuardia Airport (http://www.wpix.com/topic/travel/transportation/air-transportation/laguardia-airport-ORCRP01729561.topic) when he attempted to fly with his registered gun in his luggage. His ammunition was in a separate, secured container. Meckler last week made a plea agreement and received a $250 fine and a conviction on a disorderly conduct charge. That conviction is considered a minor violation in the eyes of the law and therefore will not blemish Meckler's record.
http://www.wpix.com/news/wpix-letter-campaign-for-marine-with-gun-at-empire-state,0,2057286.story

MedicOni
01-27-2012, 09:11
You can sensationalize it all you want. But fact of the matter is these are the laws and these people broke them. Do I agree with or like the laws? No. But when I go into New York I leave my guns at home because thats the law in their state.

This. If you want to CC somewhere, do your damned homework first

Gunnut 45/454
01-27-2012, 09:12
OctoberRust
BS! Read the state law it specifically calls it a felony! They could have made it a misdemeanor -but the Guncontrol freaks there want nothing less then a felony! They want to ensure you never own a firearm again. Mandatory prison sentence of 5-14 years! All for possesing a legally own firearm!:steamed:

PAGunner
01-27-2012, 09:14
Honestly, I don't know. I'm torn on this one.

Rule of law. Constitution. Home rule. Honest mistake (no mens rea).

If *I* were running the DA's office in NYC and had to answer to he who put me in the position I would probably let all of the ones who did nothing except illegal CCW and had no priors plead to disorderly conduct, take their gun and call it a day.

Second offense they wouldn't get to plead, though.

I hear what you're saying, but the constitution is what it is. If it has no meaning, what good is the document? We should never compromise on issues Which not only do we know we're in the right, but the founding father agreed so much so to put our views into writing. Constitution and it's amendments should not be suggestions, NY needs to get back to being part of the USA before I ever step foot in tha hellhole I grew up in for 25 years again!

dosei
01-27-2012, 09:18
common sense should prevail IMO.

While I do agree, one must also concede that it is "common sense" to know the laws of the places you are going. I'm not supportive of anything that creates the opportunity down the road for criminals to exploit the law and get off with a hand slap by claiming "I didn't know".

OctoberRust
01-27-2012, 09:23
OctoberRust
BS! Read the state law it specifically calls it a felony! They could have made it a misdemeanor -but the Guncontrol freaks there want nothing less then a felony! They want to ensure you never own a firearm again. Mandatory prison sentence of 5-14 years! All for possesing a legally own firearm!:steamed:


You must have not read my post.
Let me type in all caps, this may help you.

IF THERE WAS NO BRADY CAMPAIGN OF 1986 YOU COULD STILL POSSESS A FIREARM, EVEN IF YOU ARE/WERE A CONVICTED FELON. YOU CANNOT TAKE AWAY A "RIGHT" FROM AN AMERICAN CITIZEN WHO IS NOT CURRENTLY JAILED. THEREFORE THE BRADY CAMPAIGN OF 1986 WAS ANOTHER LAW SET TO THE FEDERAL LEVEL, THE FEDERAL LEVEL MEANING IF NY CHARGES YOU WITH A FELONY LIKE THIS, THEN IT FORBIDS YOU TO POSSESS/OWN A FIREARM. YOU GET IT NOW? IF WE TOOK AWAY THE BRADY ACT OF 1986 WE WOULDN'T HAVE THIS ISSUE, KIND OF LIKE HOW WE'RE PUTTING A BANDAID ON CANCER WITH THIS FEDEREAL CC LAW.

Does that help you any?

acg8276
01-27-2012, 09:33
This is real, from Tennessee's official government website, and only SOMEWHAT tongue in cheek. It refers to a case about a nurse from Tennessee with a license to carry firearms in her state, went to NYC, went to the 9/11 site--Ground Zero, and asked where she could check her weapon. The answer was the sound of two NYPD handcuffs clicking onto her wrists
==================================



HOUSE JOINT RESOLUTION 585

A RESOLUTION urging the State of New York to use common
sense and sound judgment in the disposition of
the case against Meredith Graves.
WHEREAS, on December 22, 2011, Meredith Graves, a registered nurse, fourth-year
medical student, and Tennessean traveled to New York City for a residency interview at
Brookhaven Memorial Hospital on Long Island; and
WHEREAS, while in New York City, the soon-to-be doctor and her husband, Richard
Disharoon, decided to pay their respects to the victims of 9/11 and attempted to enter the
hallowed memorial at Ground Zero; and
WHEREAS, believing the Second Amendment to the United States Constitution was still
in effect and possessing a fully authorized license to carry from the great State of Tennessee,
Ms. Graves arrived at the memorial with her .32 caliber pistol stored in her purse, never
imagining the mayhem that would shortly ensue; and
WHEREAS, as she quietly approached the sacred landmark, Meredith Graves caught a
glimpse of a sign, warning, “No Guns Allowed,” and, as any law abiding citizen would do, she
quickly reached out to a security guard and inquired as to the proper procedure for checking a
firearm; and
WHEREAS, the guard directed her to a separate section and explained that she was in
luck because it just happened to be “Law Enforcement Day;” and
WHEREAS, with no reason to be concerned, Ms. Graves followed the guard’s
instructions and respectfully asked a police officer the same question; and
WHEREAS, reacting with undue haste, the officer immediately arrested Meredith Graves
on a weapons-possession charge, and she was subsequently held on a $2,000 bond; and

- 2 - 01098550
WHEREAS, despite having no prior criminal record, Ms. Graves must report to court on
March 19, 2012, when these charges will be prosecuted by the Manhattan District Attorney, who
plans to pursue a conviction on felony gun possession. This serious allegation carries a
minimum sentence of three and one-half years; and
WHEREAS, clearly, this incident was simply an unfortunate misunderstanding and any
attempt to pursue legal action against this devoted health care professional would be a grave
miscarriage of justice; now, therefore,
BE IT RESOLVED BY THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES OF THE ONE HUNDRED
SEVENTH GENERAL ASSEMBLY OF THE STATE OF TENNESSEE, THE SENATE
CONCURRING, that we hereby urge the State of New York to use common sense and sound
judgment in the disposition of the case against Meredith Graves.
BE IT FURTHER RESOLVED, that we remind the citizens of New York, especially those
residing in New York City, to drive carefully through the great State of Tennessee, paying extra
attention to our speed limits.
BE IT FURTHER RESOLVED, that a certified copy of this resolution be transmitted to

Michael R. Bloomberg, Mayor of New York City.

PAGunner
01-27-2012, 09:51
That resolution has no teeth, just moral support.

HerrGlock
01-27-2012, 09:56
I hear what you're saying, but the constitution is what it is. If it has no meaning, what good is the document? We should never compromise on issues Which not only do we know we're in the right, but the founding father agreed so much so to put our views into writing. Constitution and it's amendments should not be suggestions, NY needs to get back to being part of the USA before I ever step foot in tha hellhole I grew up in for 25 years again!

I do understand, HOWEVER...

NYC's laws, specifically the Sullivan law, have not been found unconstitutional. It's not the only place that requires you to have a permit to purchase and other places have gone all the way through the system and not been found unconstitutional.

The reason DC's and Chicago's laws were found so was there was no way to legally possess handguns. NYC there is. Yeah, it's a royal pain in the tucas and who outside of someone living there would even attempt it but there is and it's not been found in violation of the constitution.

The very second after is has been, I will restate my answer and it will be different. Right now, that's what we got.

Gunnut 45/454
01-27-2012, 10:07
acg8276
Gee thats a first! I'll bet ten bucks it has to do with the fact he's a LAWYER with very deep pockets! He probably had the smarts to tell the Prosecutor -do you really want this to go to trail cause I can assure you it will go all the way to the SCOTUS! Unfortunately for most of the regular folks -like that nurse from TN they don't have free lawyers and a ton of money to fight the state. NYS knows if there law get to the SCOTUS it will be shot down. They will do what they need to do so it doesn't.:steamed:

acg8276
01-27-2012, 10:15
acg8276
Gee thats a first! I'll bet ten bucks it has to do with the fact he's a LAWYER with very deep pockets! He probably had the smarts to tell the Prosecutor -do you really want this to go to trail cause I can assure you it will go all the way to the SCOTUS! Unfortunately for most of the regular folks -like that nurse from TN they don't have free lawyers and a ton of money to fight the state. NYS knows if there law get to the SCOTUS it will be shot down. They will do what they need to do so it doesn't.:steamed:

No, it has NOTHING to do with the fact that he is a LAWYER. If you'd do a little homework you'd find that the fellow who started the campaign is a Marine and in BOSTON, he started the campaign to help out a fellow Marine. NOT the attorney for Ryan Jerome. Jerome has his own attorney.

Patchman
01-27-2012, 10:21
What about little towns where only the locals know about the speed traps? Should a tourist be legally liable when caught going through their speed trap?

People don't know NYC, Washington DC, Philly, Boston, Detroit, etc... have some of the strictest gun control laws in the nation? OOkkkkkkkkaaaaay!

fuzzy03cls
01-27-2012, 10:57
NYC there is. Yeah, it's a royal pain in the tucas and who outside of someone living there would even attempt it but there is and it's not been found in violation of the constitution.Yeah & while you can get a resident home permit you can't have the gun loaded & you can not take it from the home unless your going directly to a range which none are in NYC for a private citizen to use.
NYC can also deny you this right for basically any dumb reason they see fit & call it a legal reason.
And since your gun is registered, NYPD can show up & take your firearm if they want it.
Getting a carry permit in NYC.... Yeah you "can" get one on paper, but the reality is they make it extremely difficult & expensive & time consuming & can still deny you again with whatever reason they want to claim.

PAGunner
01-27-2012, 11:16
People don't know NYC, Washington DC, Philly, Boston, Detroit, etc... have some of the strictest gun control laws in the nation? OOkkkkkkkkaaaaay!

Philly has strict gun laws??? Apparently you know nothing about PA and it's state constitution that trumps the wants of the libtards that run that city. Open carry without a permit is the only thing more restrictive in Philly than the rest of the bitter clinger state, and that is a state issue, not a Philly issue.

MA grants out of state permits, and they're actually easier to obtain than in-state, if you could believe it. Idk about Detroit, but Philly certainly is not anything like NYC, DC or Chicago. :upeyes:

PAGunner
01-27-2012, 11:21
Yeah & while you can get a resident home permit you can't have the gun loaded & you can not take it from the home unless your going directly to a range which none are in NYC for a private citizen to use.
NYC can also deny you this right for basically any dumb reason they see fit & call it a legal reason.
And since your gun is registered, NYPD can show up & take your firearm if they want it.
Getting a carry permit in NYC.... Yeah you "can" get one on paper, but the reality is they make it extremely difficult & expensive & time consuming & can still deny you again with whatever reason they want to claim.

Exactly, anything less than shall issue in my mind is unconstitutional, regardless of what activist judges may or may not rule. Further, reciprocity should be a given, I'll point to article 3 section 2 of COTUS.

ithaca_deerslayer
01-27-2012, 11:42
I do understand, HOWEVER...

NYC's laws, specifically the Sullivan law, have not been found unconstitutional. It's not the only place that requires you to have a permit to purchase and other places have gone all the way through the system and not been found unconstitutional.

The reason DC's and Chicago's laws were found so was there was no way to legally possess handguns. NYC there is. Yeah, it's a royal pain in the tucas and who outside of someone living there would even attempt it but there is and it's not been found in violation of the constitution.

The very second after is has been, I will restate my answer and it will be different. Right now, that's what we got.

I don't think you can get a NYS permit unless you are a NYS resident. That seems clearly unconstitutional to me.

Gunnut 45/454
01-27-2012, 12:34
acg8276
My lawyer comment was in reference this ! Mark Meckler is a Lawyer !

http://www.markmeckler.net/about/

Lets put this in context- because he's a lawyer- a felony would prevent him from being a lawyer- so do you think he would fight with every dollar he has to not become a felon? Very good reason to say to the NYC Prosecuter hey bring it on I have the COTUS to back me and your NYC law will go down -want to try it? Faced with the very possible and costly court battle the NYC prosecutor said here will just do the misdemeanor charge!:faint:

Now the other two the Marine /nurse- not lawyers -have no deep pocket for lawyers - there going down ! I'll bet money on it!

"... in December 2011, Tea Party Patriots founder Mark Meckler was arrested at LaGuardia Airport when he attempted to fly with his registered gun in his luggage. His ammunition was in a separate, secured container. Meckler last week made a plea agreement and received a $250 fine and a conviction on a disorderly conduct charge. That conviction is considered a minor violation in the eyes of the law and therefore will not blemish Meckler's record.
http://www.wpix.com/news/wpix-letter...,2057286.story"

Patchman
01-27-2012, 14:26
Philly has strict gun laws??? Apparently you know nothing about PA and it's state constitution that trumps the wants of the libtards that run that city. Open carry without a permit is the only thing more restrictive in Philly than the rest of the bitter clinger state, and that is a state issue, not a Philly issue. :upeyes:

No, I don't know anything about the carry laws in Philly. And if I should carry there one day, should I, or shouldn't I have some responsibility to find out? :dunno:

acg8276
01-27-2012, 15:56
acg8276
My lawyer comment was in reference this ! Mark Meckler is a Lawyer !

Lets put this in context- because he's a lawyer- a felony would prevent him from being a lawyer- so do you think he would fight with every dollar he has to not become a felon? Very good reason to say to the NYC Prosecuter hey bring it on I have the COTUS to back me and your NYC law will go down -want to try it? Faced with the very possible and costly court battle the NYC prosecutor said here will just do the misdemeanor charge!


Or perhaps because he is a lawyer AND somewhat of a celebrity he got special treatment. If you think for a minute he threatened them to get his reduction your sorely mistaken.

acg8276

Now the other two the Marine and or the nurse- not lawyers -have no deep pocket for lawyers - there going down ! I'll bet money on it!



Time will tell, I guess we'll wait and see.

true believer
01-27-2012, 19:17
question, if i'm on a plane heading from pa to any state that i can carry my hand gun with my permit..say a problem forces the plane to land at laguardia a.p. and we have to change planes..but cant get a plane till next day..
with my gun checked in pa. will i go to jail when i tell them the next day when i check in?
:whistling:

Patchman
01-27-2012, 19:24
question, if i'm on a plane heading from pa to any state that i can carry my hand gun with my permit..say a problem forces the plane to land at laguardia a.p. and we have to change planes..but cant get a plane till next day..
with my gun checked in pa. will i go to jail when i tell them the next day when i check in?
:whistling:

Since he gun will be in your checked in luggage, just make sure you don't take those luggage out of the airport with you to your hotel overnight. As the airline already knows you have a checked in handgun, talk to them about keeping possession of your luggage and automatically forwarding it to the correct flight.

This is not just for NYC but any airport you might land at unexpectedly.

true believer
01-27-2012, 19:29
Honestly, I don't know. I'm torn on this one.

Rule of law. Constitution. Home rule. Honest mistake (no mens rea).

If *I* were running the DA's office in NYC and had to answer to he who put me in the position I would probably let all of the ones who did nothing except illegal CCW and had no priors plead to disorderly conduct, take their gun and call it a day.

Second offense they wouldn't get to plead, though.

agree with u..
i know some say you should know the law.. while i agree, we should know the law i would hate to make a mistake. 1 honest mistake shouldnt make you a felon, imo..
:whistling:

ithaca_deerslayer
01-27-2012, 20:25
Since he gun will be in your checked in luggage, just make sure you don't take those luggage out of the airport with you to your hotel overnight. As the airline already knows you have a checked in handgun, talk to them about keeping possession of your luggage and automatically forwarding it to the correct flight.

This is not just for NYC but any airport you might land at unexpectedly.

This discussion has come up on GT before :)

You've worded it nicely. But no matter what, if the airline tells you you have to take the luggage (that has the handgun in it), don't. Don't freaking touch it for a second. "I'm not touching that thing, because I don't have NYC/NYS permit."

People have gotten nailed on this exact scenario, plane drops into NYC, airline says here's your luggage, come back tommorow morning. When you come back, you try to check your handgun in and the nice NYC officer standing nearby smiles and says "come with me." Felony time, baby!

true believer
01-27-2012, 20:28
This discussion has come up on GT before :)

You've worded it nicely. But no matter what, if the airline tells you you have to take the luggage (that has the handgun in it), don't. Don't freaking touch it for a second. "I'm not touching that thing, because I don't have NYC/NYS permit."

People have gotten nailed on this exact scenario, plane drops into NYC, airline says here's your luggage, come back tommorow morning. When you come back, you try to check your handgun in and the nice NYC officer standing nearby smiles and says "come with me." Felony time, baby!

thats what i thought..
:faint:

acg8276
01-28-2012, 05:10
NYC needs stiffer laws aimed at people who use guns in the commision of a crime. NOT at John Q public who carries a gun for personal protection. Ask Bernard Goetz where he'd be if he'd have followed the letter of the law and not had a gun on him when he needed it.

Having been charged with attempted murder, assault, reckless endangerment, and several firearms offenses he was found guilty only of an illegal firearms possession count and then only served 2/3 of a one year sentence.

Misty02
01-28-2012, 07:02
Here is the thing, I feel bad for those that didn’t know they were breaking the law and innocently approached others in authority and asked to have their weapon secured thinking they were doing the right thing.

At the same time I know that as licensed carrier it’s my responsibility to do my very best to learn the carry laws of where I go. If I break the law in that state, there will be consequences. It is a shame that not all those that carry have been exposed to forums such as this one to better understand the restrictions faced by others in various states. It is not something people go around talking about locally, you know?

No one can be expected to know every law in their own state (not just firearms) let alone the ones elsewhere. Some may get lucky and never get caught breaking a law they didn’t know about, others aren’t as lucky. The ones that don’t get caught may go around ignorantly thinking it is ok, they may even tell others it is (when it isn’t). There have been several individuals lately who are otherwise law-abiding citizens in that predicament after they disclosed they carrying in NYC. One thing to note, they weren’t caught, they apparently innocently disclosed that fact themselves thinking they were doing the right thing.

I wish them well, but the fact remains that they did break the law. Not every law is just, nor is everything that is illegal wrong. The more informed we all are, the better decisions we can make while weighing risk versus reward (and then face the consequences for either). If in spite it all I unknowingly break a law and get caught, then I’ll be in the same ship as these poor people and spend our hard earned money in defense. If I’m lucky I won’t end up with a felony that bars me from possessing tools known to be effective for self-defense in the future.

.

Patchman
01-28-2012, 08:11
And that's why I think it's time for states to develop some type of "good faith exceptions" to their CCW laws. Gives the CCWer who made a good faith mistake an opportunity to argue they should still be allowed to keep their CCW.

(Although federal law might preempt this idea, at least to some extent. Doesn't federal law prohibit possession of firearms by felons?)

Misty02
01-28-2012, 08:41
And that's why I think it's time for states to develop some type of "good faith exceptions" to their CCW laws. Gives the CCWer who made a good faith mistake an opportunity to argue they should still be allowed to keep their CCW.

(Although federal law might preempt this idea, at least to some extent. Doesn't federal law prohibit possession of firearms by felons?)

You have my vote on that one, Patchman! :thumbsup: Sadly, as with anything, someone would find a way to abuse it and we could end back on square one.

I don’t know if any of these individuals will end up with a felony charge. In my state I would not be able to legally own, have in my care, custody, possession or control any firearm, ammunition, electric weapon or device or carry any concealed weapon (including tear gas or any other chemical device) if I were to be a convicted of a felony. It wouldn’t just affect what I carry but what we have at home too. The implications are huge!

.

kensteele
01-28-2012, 17:01
What about little towns where only the locals know about the speed traps? Should a tourist be legally liable when caught going through their speed trap?

People don't know NYC, Washington DC, Philly, Boston, Detroit, etc... have some of the strictest gun control laws in the nation? OOkkkkkkkkaaaaay!

Let me see if I understand you. If you are driving across America on a FL DL and you go thru a small town in OH which has a law that says anyone doing more than 1mph over the posted speed limit or even 1mph under the posted speed limit is guilty of a felony and mandatory 30 days in prison, minimum $10k fine and permanent loss of DL....this is ok with you because as others have said "I should do my homework before I have the gall to take my ass on the road in my own car?"

Patchman
01-28-2012, 17:12
Let me see if I understand you. If you are driving across America on a FL DL and you go thru a small town in OH which has a law that says anyone doing more than 1mph over the posted speed limit or even 1mph under the posted speed limit is guilty of a felony and mandatory 30 days in prison, minimum $10k fine and permanent loss of DL....this is ok with you because as others have said "I should do my homework before I have the gall to take my ass on the road in my own car?"

Ah, these small town speed traps are not widely known. And known only to the locals. But it's still the law, right? (This here is the whole crux).

Well, is NYC's anti-gun laws much better publicized? Damn right NYC's gun laws are much better publicized.

So if people are saying these people who bring guns into NYC should be forgiven because they "forgot" or "didn't know", then shouldn't those who get caught in small town speed traps be even more forgiven?

kensteele
01-28-2012, 17:16
This discussion has come up on GT before :)

You've worded it nicely. But no matter what, if the airline tells you you have to take the luggage (that has the handgun in it), don't. Don't freaking touch it for a second. "I'm not touching that thing, because I don't have NYC/NYS permit."

People have gotten nailed on this exact scenario, plane drops into NYC, airline says here's your luggage, come back tommorow morning. When you come back, you try to check your handgun in and the nice NYC officer standing nearby smiles and says "come with me." Felony time, baby!

It doesn't matter if you "take possession" of the luggage or not. And airport is a controlled environment. It's YOUR bag. It's YOUR handgun. You are in NY. And you DON'T have a permit. So you are breaking the law, not when you try to check in, but simply by standing there. If you tell the airline that you are in NY with a handgun you don't have a permit for, they'll call the police.

PAGunner
01-28-2012, 17:23
Ah, these small town speed traps are not widely known. And known only to the locals. But it's still the law, right? (This here is the whole crux).

Well, is NYC's anti-gun laws much better publicized? Damn right NYC's gun laws are much better publicized.

So if people are saying these people who bring guns into NYC should be forgiven because they "forgot" or "didn't know", then shouldn't those who get caught in small town speed traps be even more forgiven?

Widely publicized to whom? People who read the NY Post everyday? What should be more well publicized than NYS's clearly anti-2a laws is this famous document, called the U.S. Constitution. See, after reading that I would think that my God given right to self defense would be good anywhere in the USA.

kensteele
01-28-2012, 17:28
Ah, these small town speed traps are not widely known. And known only to the locals. But it's still the law, right? (This here is the whole crux).

Well, is NYC's anti-gun laws much better publicized? Damn right NYC's gun laws are much better publicized.

So if people are saying these people who bring guns into NYC should be forgiven because they "forgot" or "didn't know", then shouldn't those who get caught in small town speed traps be even more forgiven?

If NYC was handing out $100 tickets for those guns, nobody would be asking for forgiveness.

If your small OH town was handing out felony speeding tickets, yes people would be having a problem with these law. I know. I lived back in the day when state to state traffic laws were so abominibal, the Fed govt had to step in. Not because they were concerned the state was cracking down on their residents but because the state was hurting the [innocent] traveler. Same here.

We're not talking about knowing the law or not, we're talking about the penalty. And we are talking about what is reasonable. The NY penalty is too harsh. Do they have signs up in the airport that provide notice?

I would totally disagree with you about NY gun laws. It's not well known. I'll bet you 99% of the country is not aware that as a non-resident, you cannot legally check in an unloaded firearm at the airport without a permit.

Do you agree with Mayor Bloomberg that handgun owners from out of state who come to NY without a permit are felons even if their gun is unloaded and in their hotel room?

pipedreams
01-28-2012, 17:45
This discussion has come up on GT before :)

You've worded it nicely. But no matter what, if the airline tells you you have to take the luggage (that has the handgun in it), don't. Don't freaking touch it for a second. "I'm not touching that thing, because I don't have NYC/NYS permit."

People have gotten nailed on this exact scenario, plane drops into NYC, airline says here's your luggage, come back tommorow morning. When you come back, you try to check your handgun in and the nice NYC officer standing nearby smiles and says "come with me." Felony time, baby!
Airlines have luggage not picked up all the time and they store it till someone shows up with a claim ticket. Just don't pick up the bag with the gun and it will be in their possession all the time. The next day tell them you never picked up the bag and would like it placed on your connecting flight.

wayne
01-28-2012, 18:02
I carried in NYC in 2007 under LEOSA but I was just passing through the city to go out to Long Island.

NEOH212
01-28-2012, 18:14
I don't like a lot of the laws that restrict concealed or opened carry as I believe that all one should need to carry a gun is the Second Amendment.

However, until we get these BS laws thrown out, the law is the law and we are obligated to obey it. Violate it and you pay the price. I don't care for the laws in NY and I will never go there nor anywhere else that I can't be armed.

Patchman
01-28-2012, 18:18
If your small OH town was handing out felony speeding tickets, yes people would be having a problem with these law. I know. I lived back in the day when state to state traffic laws were so abominibal, the Fed govt had to step in. Not because they were concerned the state was cracking down on their residents but because the state was hurting the [innocent] traveler. Same here.

So under the commerce clause NY's gun laws are illegal? OK, go for it.


We're not talking about knowing the law or not, we're talking about the penalty. And we are talking about what is reasonable. The NY penalty is too harsh. Do they have signs up in the airport that provide notice?

So you're saying the law itself is OK? No argument from me.

And according to Google map, there are several highways into NYC.

I would totally disagree with you about NY gun laws. It's not well known. I'll bet you 99% of the country is not aware that as a non-resident, you cannot legally check in an unloaded firearm at the airport without a permit.

NYC gun laws not known by 99-percent of the population? Then I must be that 1-percent burdened by knowledge.

Do you agree with Mayor Bloomberg that handgun owners from out of state who come to NY without a permit are felons even if their gun is unloaded and in their hotel room?

UNLOADED guns? I must have missed reading these news articles. Please cite.

Patchman
01-28-2012, 18:21
Widely publicized to whom? People who read the NY Post everyday? What should be more well publicized than NYS's clearly anti-2a laws is this famous document, called the U.S. Constitution. See, after reading that I would think that my God given right to self defense would be good anywhere in the USA.

Hey, you never answered my previous post in response to yours. Whadda you say?

ithaca_deerslayer
01-28-2012, 18:27
It doesn't matter if you "take possession" of the luggage or not. And airport is a controlled environment. It's YOUR bag. It's YOUR handgun. You are in NY. And you DON'T have a permit. So you are breaking the law, not when you try to check in, but simply by standing there. If you tell the airline that you are in NY with a handgun you don't have a permit for, they'll call the police.

We can disagree on this one. But I believe possession would have to mean actually holding the bag. I last held the bag where I could legally possess the handgun. Then, the airline brought the bag into NYC. I'm not going to hold that bag, not going to possess that handgun in NYC.

I believe virtually any lawyer can win that case for me.

Warp
01-28-2012, 19:28
This is an example of why I continue to tell my wife that a vacation/trip/visit to New York City is simply out of the question. Same with Mexico (anywhere).

Warp
01-28-2012, 19:35
Also, Plaxico Burress all over again.

In the sake of consistency this Marine should get the same multi year sentence that Plax got.

Maybe that will bring some attention to how ****ed up NYC's laws are?

purrrfect 10
01-28-2012, 19:55
You can sensationalize it all you want. But fact of the matter is these are the laws and these people broke them. Do I agree with or like the laws? No. But when I go into New York I leave my guns at home because thats the law in their state.

Burns my A ss.... Might be the law but does not make it right :whistling:

Warp
01-28-2012, 20:09
Burns my A ss.... Might be the law but does not make it right :whistling:

Burns my ass too. BTW: You don't need to creatively spell/add spaces to type ass, it is not filtered.

kensteele
01-28-2012, 21:30
Airlines have luggage not picked up all the time and they store it till someone shows up with a claim ticket. Just don't pick up the bag with the gun and it will be in their possession all the time. The next day tell them you never picked up the bag and would like it placed on your connecting flight.

that might work if the airlines don't know there is a firearm in that bag. i promise you they will not send a gun to you if you are not present. normally the airline will courtesy transport your baggage if it's their mistake or their fault but they don't normally let you fly away and leave your baggage behind. you might be able to convince them but don't be surprised if they refuse to send your weapons to you and instead call the police.

We can disagree on this one. But I believe possession would have to mean actually holding the bag. I last held the bag where I could legally possess the handgun. Then, the airline brought the bag into NYC. I'm not going to hold that bag, not going to possess that handgun in NYC.

I believe virtually any lawyer can win that case for me.

Maybe. But you will be arrested. And if you are out of state, a warrant will be issued for your arrest. And you'll lose your permit.

Somebody owns that bag and those weapons. They can't arrest the airlines. Abandoning your weapons brought illegally into the city and then saying someone else is responsible for them being there no fault of your own is hardly going to save you I don't think. "I'm not there so I'm still legal, so send them to me" is unlikely.

Think about the guy with guns in his hotel room. You think if he never returns to that room to "possess" his weapon or touch his bag, you think he can escape charges?

If you are a nobody and they find your handgun within the city limits with no permit, you can expect things to go badly until we can get the law changed. There are no clever ways to beat the law.

kensteele
01-28-2012, 21:38
So under the commerce clause NY's gun laws are illegal? OK, go for it.

Not yet; but shortly.




So you're saying the law itself is OK? No argument from me.

No, the law is bad; awful.


NYC gun laws not known by 99-percent of the population? Then I must be that 1-percent burdened by knowledge.

Do you happen to know all the laws in all the cities and counties in OH? Or do you blaze thru there thinking you are protected because the state maybe has preemption or your permit has reciprocity?



UNLOADED guns? I must have missed reading these news articles. Please cite.

Wait. Before I find it, you think possessing an unloaded handgun without a permit by a non-resident is ok? lol So much for the 1%.

KS Trekker
01-28-2012, 21:51
Don't they teach anyone about state reciprocity in these CCW classes? I know mine did. I check the CCW reciprocity maps every time before I plan any travel outside of my state. If you don't agree with another state's laws concerning gun ownership, then stay out of that state! I'm not buying the "good faith" defense, sounds more like ignorance of the law to me. Don't just assume another state honors your CCW permit.

Warp
01-28-2012, 22:45
Don't they teach anyone about state reciprocity in these CCW classes?

A lot of us don't get forced to take those silly state mandated classes.

Warp
01-28-2012, 22:47
I liked the part where Mayor Bloomberg made an asshat of himself by claiming she had cocaine in her pocket, which was of course not true.

HarleyGuy
01-28-2012, 23:17
I liked the part where Mayor Bloomberg made an asshat of himself by claiming she had cocaine in her pocket, which was of course not true.

Perhaps she should sue him for character defamation?:supergrin:

Misty02
01-29-2012, 04:04
I don't like a lot of the laws that restrict concealed or opened carry as I believe that all one should need to carry a gun is the Second Amendment.

However, until we get these BS laws thrown out, the law is the law and we are obligated to obey it. Violate it and you pay the price. I don't care for the laws in NY and I will never go there nor anywhere else that I can't be armed.

That is the thing, you may never go there voluntarily but it doesn’t necessarily mean you won’t end up there. Some situations are beyond our control, like a flight that is diverted and makes an unscheduled stop in a restrictive state. It has happened before and it didn’t go well for the individual that found himself in that situation while traveling with a firearm following the TSA guidelines and rules and his flight made an uncheduled stop in NJ.


ETA: My apologies, the case I mentioned did have a connecting flight in NJ. He was not traveling to NJ but his plane didn’t make an unscheduled landing there either (which still can happen though). http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011/01/18/traveling-mans-gun-arrest-appealed-supreme-court/ (http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011/01/18/traveling-mans-gun-arrest-appealed-supreme-court/)
.

Misty02
01-29-2012, 04:30
We can disagree on this one. But I believe possession would have to mean actually holding the bag. I last held the bag where I could legally possess the handgun. Then, the airline brought the bag into NYC. I'm not going to hold that bag, not going to possess that handgun in NYC.

I believe virtually any lawyer can win that case for me.

I’m with you, Ithaca_deerslayer. If it happened to me, there is no way I would lay a hand on my luggage if I landed in what I believe to be a restrictive state. However, I’m afraid that kensteele may be right as well. It all depends on how the prosecutor handles the case. Unless “possession” is actually defined in states such as NY and NJ, we can end up getting charged with possession in spite never laying hand on our luggage as we had constructive possession, the fact we could have claimed our luggage at any time. http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/possession (http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/possession)

We would need the best lawyer we could afford at that time, that is for sure. It should also not hurt our case that we never took "actual" possession.

.

Misty02
01-29-2012, 04:50
Don't they teach anyone about state reciprocity in these CCW classes? I know mine did. I check the CCW reciprocity maps every time before I plan any travel outside of my state. If you don't agree with another state's laws concerning gun ownership, then stay out of that state! I'm not buying the "good faith" defense, sounds more like ignorance of the law to me. Don't just assume another state honors your CCW permit.

Do you believe you know all the laws of every state you have ever traveled to? Do you believe you even know all the laws in your own state/county/city?

I’m not attempting to excuse people that don’t at least make an attempt to educate themselves. But I would be highly suspicious of anyone that claims to know everything about anything, more so when you are dealing with laws. Even exceptional, knowledgeable and experienced judges and attorneys find the need to do research and prepare for cases they are handling and they do that for a living.

Is it remotely possible you may be overestimating your own knowledge by a tad? One can, in good faith, research the laws of places we travel to and do our very best to comply with what we have learned. However, researching statutes or handgunlaw may not be sufficient. You may also wish to research case law to get a better picture, even if you do that, YOUR case may be the one that establishes case law for the future and was not previously available for you to research.

Whatever your knowledge level is, may not be enough. There will always be others that know substantially less than you do as well as others that know substantially more.

So, would you still like the protection that something like "good faith" would offer?
.

ithaca_deerslayer
01-29-2012, 07:45
that might work if the airlines don't know there is a firearm in that bag. i promise you they will not send a gun to you if you are not present. normally the airline will courtesy transport your baggage if it's their mistake or their fault but they don't normally let you fly away and leave your baggage behind. you might be able to convince them but don't be surprised if they refuse to send your weapons to you and instead call the police.



Maybe. But you will be arrested. And if you are out of state, a warrant will be issued for your arrest. And you'll lose your permit.

Somebody owns that bag and those weapons. They can't arrest the airlines. Abandoning your weapons brought illegally into the city and then saying someone else is responsible for them being there no fault of your own is hardly going to save you I don't think. "I'm not there so I'm still legal, so send them to me" is unlikely.

Think about the guy with guns in his hotel room. You think if he never returns to that room to "possess" his weapon or touch his bag, you think he can escape charges?

If you are a nobody and they find your handgun within the city limits with no permit, you can expect things to go badly until we can get the law changed. There are no clever ways to beat the law.

The difference with the hotel guy is the police and a jury can reasonably assume he was the one who carried the handgun to the hotel room, and had taken possession of it in NYC.

The scenario I'm talking about, I'm not flying the plane, I don't have access to where the luggage is stored on the plane, I'm not the airline baggage handler. And I'm not holding the bag at the airport or anywhere else in NYC.

Do you have a better plan for if your plane is diverted to NYC for a layover???

RYT 2BER
01-29-2012, 07:57
I hear what you're saying, but the constitution is what it is. If it has no meaning, what good is the document? We should never compromise on issues Which not only do we know we're in the right, but the founding father agreed so much so to put our views into writing. Constitution and it's amendments should not be suggestions, NY needs to get back to being part of the USA before I ever step foot in tha hellhole I grew up in for 25 years again!

I have to agree with this...

I never understand how we have a federal bill of rights that is supposed to be a defining set of inalienable rights, yet everyone thinks states can limit them..

Do you also think xyz state can ban books? Can ABC state choose to limit your right to a trial by jury? These are all issues of bor amendments.. why does everyone think the second amendment is subject to all kinds of limitations, but the 1st and 4 th amendment are unwaivering? :dunno:

I'll go one further.. I don't think the 10 the amendment of states sovereignty meant anything regarding the BOR... however to complicate things even more, history has shown that the federal government tries to introduce gun control constantly and sometimes successfully ...

Here is the long and short of it... irrational gun control simply isn't a state or federal problem... it is almost solely and overwhelmingly a "Democratic party" problem at the state AND federal level

kensteele
01-29-2012, 18:35
Don't they teach anyone about state reciprocity in these CCW classes? I know mine did. I check the CCW reciprocity maps every time before I plan any travel outside of my state. If you don't agree with another state's laws concerning gun ownership, then stay out of that state! I'm not buying the "good faith" defense, sounds more like ignorance of the law to me. Don't just assume another state honors your CCW permit.

State laws change by the hour. Classes are valuable only if they tell you to keep checking the laws to stay current and then tell you that you still cannot know all the state, city, and county laws. Sometimes you have to pass though a state to get to the state in which you are going....which is the essense of Federal protection laws. Under some circumstances, if I am going from state A to state C and I pass thru state B, I actually DON'T have to have a full debriefing on all state B gun laws.

If you are like me, you believe the citizen has the right to "reasonably" travel across this country without undue interference from the states you encounter along the way. IMO, that means if you don't like another state's gun laws, don't stop there.

From your example, it is certainly ignorance of the law and yes you are still guilty, we all know that. What we don't like is the harsh penalties and the destruction of one's life for such a petty violation. We simply don't want parts of this country to resemble 1940s Russia. As a US citizen, I have to right to reject and fight any other parts of this nation that acts like a communist country when it comes to guns. No non-resident should go to Rikkers Island for having a unloaded handgun in their hotel room for self-protection, lose their gun rights in all 50 states, and maybe lose their career. We should fight this, not embrace it.

kensteele
01-29-2012, 18:46
The difference with the hotel guy is the police and a jury can reasonably assume he was the one who carried the handgun to the hotel room, and had taken possession of it in NYC.

The scenario I'm talking about, I'm not flying the plane, I don't have access to where the luggage is stored on the plane, I'm not the airline baggage handler. And I'm not holding the bag at the airport or anywhere else in NYC.

Do you have a better plan for if your plane is diverted to NYC for a layover???

I understand your position and I think it is reasonable if you plan to fight. You want to be able to say you never touched that bag. But I don't plan to fight because I don't believe I can win that fight. I plan to get my bag and my firearm and leave the city as soon as possible. I didn't go there of my own free will and since I was put in this position against my will, the only way I know to fix it is to leave. Make no mistake about it, if you are found in NYC with a handgun that belongs to you and no permit, you're finish.

Why anyone would want to fight this when even half the gun owners think you are a guilty criminal....you don't stand a chance of skating without either paying a bunch of money, spending some time in jail, and talking with lawyers and in and out of court. No thanks.

Get your bag, hire a taxi, drive me out of the city into NJ (or one state over) where I can rent a car and drive to my final destination.

IMO

owl6roll
01-29-2012, 19:05
agreed. but it is in new york.

Yuuup!

pipedreams
01-29-2012, 21:19
that might work if the airlines don't know there is a firearm in that bag. i promise you they will not send a gun to you if you are not present. normally the airline will courtesy transport your baggage if it's their mistake or their fault but they don't normally let you fly away and leave your baggage behind. you might be able to convince them but don't be surprised if they refuse to send your weapons to you and instead call the police.

I think you are misunderstanding or trying to fog the issue. If you are legally transporting the firearm in your luggage from point A to point B the airlines knows the gun is in the bag since you declared it at check in and TSA also is aware. As long as the bag remain in the airlines possession you don't have a problem. If you are delayed overnight due to weather or some other problem they have possession of the bag, the bag and yourself will continue on to your final destination the next day.

Misty02
01-30-2012, 01:18
I understand your position and I think it is reasonable if you plan to fight. You want to be able to say you never touched that bag. But I don't plan to fight because I don't believe I can win that fight. I plan to get my bag and my firearm and leave the city as soon as possible. I didn't go there of my own free will and since I was put in this position against my will, the only way I know to fix it is to leave. Make no mistake about it, if you are found in NYC with a handgun that belongs to you and no permit, you're finish.

Why anyone would want to fight this when even half the gun owners think you are a guilty criminal....you don't stand a chance of skating without either paying a bunch of money, spending some time in jail, and talking with lawyers and in and out of court. No thanks.

Get your bag, hire a taxi, drive me out of the city into NJ (or one state over) where I can rent a car and drive to my final destination.

IMO

Noooooooooooooo NOT NJ!! You’ll likely be in about the same shape as the rest of us standing in the NY airport refusing to touch our bags! :supergrin:

.

Misty02
01-30-2012, 01:32
I think you are misunderstanding or trying to fog the issue. If you are legally transporting the firearm in your luggage from point A to point B the airlines knows the gun is in the bag since you declared it at check in and TSA also is aware. As long as the bag remain in the airlines possession you don't have a problem. If you are delayed overnight due to weather or some other problem they have possession of the bag, the bag and yourself will continue on to your final destination the next day.

I wouldn’t go as far as stating we have no problems if we don’t lay a hand in our luggage, pipedreams. Once the luggage is available for us to pick up, a case can be made for constructive possession, with the atmosphere in NY as it is with anything firearms related that may or may not be a stretch.

I won’t touch the luggage at all either; there is no way I’m setting myself up for actual possession. However, I won’t assume that is sufficient to keep me out of trouble either.

Let’s just pray that we never find ourselves in that situation or I may find myself sick to my tummy until my luggage and I have taken off the ground and are back in free airspace. :crying:

.

malakas
01-30-2012, 01:37
Also, Plaxico Burress all over again.

In the sake of consistency this Marine should get the same multi year sentence that Plax got.

Maybe that will bring some attention to how ****ed up NYC's laws are?

While I disagree that veterans should get a free pass on things that are perfectly legal in most states and a rights ending for life felony in NYC, those laws are insane and unfair and obviously unconstitutional. I don't want to see the former Marine or the med student or the SEAL procecuted for anything, not even a disorderly conduct plea.

Its fun to rail on Plaxico for his ND and general thuggery, but he wasn't punished for that. He would have faced mandatory jail time in that cesspool of a occupied city regardless of his ND. Ironically as a rich celebrity, he would have had the easiest time getting one of their extremely rare and discriminatory permits but still.

Hopefully these high profile cases that even many (though certainlly not all) hard core libtards are reluctant to say are justified will be a catalyst for change in that jacked up little oligarchy police state of a town.

I don't want the former Marine to become a felon and face jail time and loss of rights for life because he did something that was legal almost everywhere else in this country. Yet I don't want him to get a free pass just because he was a veteran. A get out of felong free card is not a perk of enlistment. I hope he doesn't spend one more day in jail and comes out of this with a clean record. He deserves that. But so do all of us. That's the point.

Sweeping this under the rug by giving a few high profile cases leniency while the rest of us peons continue to be ruled by king George ordering his red coats to disarm the "rabble" solves nothing. Hopefully these high profile cases will serve to exert political pressure to expose and change at least some of the extreme anti-rights laws in the city that brags about how much they love freedom and liberty. Having different fundamental Constitutional rights in their entirety when you cross city or state lines means all reaponsibile for those policies are anti-liberty, freedom and USA. Period. The "freedom" to get Chinese food at 3 in the morning or go to musicals and museums does not offset that. Not even close.

malakas
01-30-2012, 01:54
I wouldn’t go as far as stating we have no problems if we don’t lay a hand in our luggage, pipedreams. Once the luggage is available for us to pick up, a case can be made for constructive possession, with the atmosphere in NY as it is with anything firearms related that may or may not be a stretch.

I won’t touch the luggage at all either; there is no way I’m setting myself up for actual possession. However, I won’t assume that is sufficient to keep me out of trouble either.

Let’s just pray that we never find ourselves in that situation or I may find myself sick to my tummy until my luggage and I have taken off the ground and are back in free airspace. :crying:

.

It truly is a no win situatio for an honest citizen. Sadly the only way to fix the insanity is agressive lawsuits against agncies and individual officers for false arrest and other charges. You have a right by federal law to freely transport your legally acquired firearms from a place you legally have a right to possess them to a place you legally have a right to possess them. If some tinpot authority nazi orders his officers to arrest you for something that you obviouslly have no controll over, budget breaking lawsuits against departments and individual officers are the only way to fix it. We need to empower every entrusted law enforcement officer, agent and soldier that it is not only "allowed" but absolutely mandatory to disobey unlawful orders and assure them that they will face no repercussions from political tyrants with agendas for doing the right thing.

I feel bad for the New Jersey guy and don't think he should have faced charges, but he at least did take possession of his bag (and weapon), took it off airport property and spent the night with it. He should have remained in the secure area, called an attorney first and 9-1-1 second (Ted Kennedy style :rofl:) and forced the issue that way. If he was then arrested simply because his flight diverted, he should sue the airline and the law eforcement agency as well as all individual persons who took part in the arrest of an unarmed man in the secure area of an airport calling the police to resolve something that anyone with a brain could see was not his fault. Sue them to the ends of the earth. Go after their livelihoods and put their retirements at risk. Drag them to court and put them in jeapoardy....the same things they are doing to you. Instead he took possession, left the airport, spent the night and returned, got arrested and tried to sue. Different cases altogether.

That said, I would avoid any airline that connects in a facist little commie state like NYC, NJ, CA, IL or MA unless you can get a direct flight to and from your legal destinations. An in flight diversion is always possible, but a planned connection is much more likely to result in a situation like this.

Misty02
01-30-2012, 03:06
It truly is a no win situatio for an honest citizen. Sadly the only way to fix the insanity is agressive lawsuits against agncies and individual officers for false arrest and other charges. You have a right by federal law to freely transport your legally acquired firearms from a place you legally have a right to possess them to a place you legally have a right to possess them. If some tinpot authority nazi orders his officers to arrest you for something that you obviouslly have no controll over, budget breaking lawsuits against departments and individual officers are the only way to fix it. We need to empower every entrusted law enforcement officer, agent and soldier that it is not only "allowed" but absolutely mandatory to disobey unlawful orders and assure them that they will face no repercussions from political tyrants with agendas for doing the right thing.

I feel bad for the New Jersey guy and don't think he should have faced charges, but he at least did take possession of his bag (and weapon), took it off airport property and spent the night with it. He should have remained in the secure area, called an attorney first and 9-1-1 second (Ted Kennedy style :rofl:) and forced the issue that way. If he was then arrested simply because his flight diverted, he should sue the airline and the law eforcement agency as well as all individual persons who took part in the arrest of an unarmed man in the secure area of an airport calling the police to resolve something that anyone with a brain could see was not his fault. Sue them to the ends of the earth. Go after their livelihoods and put their retirements at risk. Drag them to court and put them in jeapoardy....the same things they are doing to you. Instead he took possession, left the airport, spent the night and returned, got arrested and tried to sue. Different cases altogether.

That said, I would avoid any airline that connects in a facist little commie state like NYC, NJ, CA, IL or MA unless you can get a direct flight to and from your legal destinations. An in flight diversion is always possible, but a planned connection is much more likely to result in a situation like this.

I don’t see how I can righteously sue a non-guilty party for an injustice; the agency and individual officers were just doing the job they were hired to do. However, that is the way things seem to work and one day one of us may find ourselves doing the wrong thing for the right reasons (not something that would be easy to live with). I would much rather sue Major Bloomberg and others that support making felons out of people who exercise their right to self-defense.

Since I don’t possess the bankroll to do either, the wisest thing for me to do is to stay out of those places.

If something out of my control takes place and I find myself stuck in those states and I’m flying with a checked firearm, I rather forfeit the entire content of my luggage permanently than lay a hand on it and end up spending in legal fees more than the value inside it. Wallgreens sells everything I could need for a night stranded somewhere.

I just had visions of someone calling the paramedics after seeing me white as a sheet of paper and sweating profusely after someone tells me “I’m sorry ma’am, we’re stranded here in NYC for the night, we will give you a voucher for a flight on us and pay for your night’s stay.” Then some do-gooder showing up at the hospital to take me my luggage. I’ll surely end up in the committed once I start backing up yelling “keep THAT away from me!” :rofl: Either way, I’m doomed! No more firearms for me!

.

fuzzy03cls
01-30-2012, 13:31
Also, Plaxico Burress all over again.

In the sake of consistency this Marine should get the same multi year sentence that Plax got.

Maybe that will bring some attention to how ****ed up NYC's laws are?

Not a chance. The people are brainwashed that all guns are bad, even the good guys. The NYPD gets slack for being a bit trigger happy at times.
One of my friend's actually thinks that if people had the right to carry, there would be people shooting each other to get a seat on the subway at rush hour. Or people shooting each other over parking spots in Manhattan. This is the thinking that's drilled into NYC residents. While we outside of NYC know this is BS, the people in NYC are fine living they way they are allowed to live. They don't see it unless they get out of NYC. Like me. I couldn't imagine carrying. Still took me 5 years being out of NYC before I thought about it.

pipedreams
01-30-2012, 14:15
Not a chance. The people are brainwashed that all guns are bad, even the good guys. The NYPD gets slack for being a bit trigger happy at times.
One of my friend's actually thinks that if people had the right to carry, there would be people shooting each other to get a seat on the subway at rush hour. Or people shooting each other over parking spots in Manhattan. This is the thinking that's drilled into NYC residents. While we outside of NYC know this is BS, the people in NYC are fine living they way they are allowed to live. They don't see it unless they get out of NYC. Like me. I couldn't imagine carrying. Still took me 5 years being out of NYC before I thought about it.

This is always the story every time a state gets right to carry. Its always reported that there will be shoot outs in the streets and the wild west all over again, never happens. When Iowa got conceal carry over a year ago there was all sorts of fear mongering to scare people. Its been a bit over a year now with thousands of permits issued and no big shoots out yet. Wisconsin just got the right to carry and I'm sure they had the same stories in the papers.

pipedreams
01-30-2012, 14:32
Originally Posted by Misty02 http://glocktalk.com/forums/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?p=18506378#post18506378)
I wouldn’t go as far as stating we have no problems if we don’t lay a hand in our luggage, pipedreams. Once the luggage is available for us to pick up, a case can be made for constructive possession, with the atmosphere in NY as it is with anything firearms related that may or may not be a stretch.

Misty, your right there could always be a case made under the right set of circumstances. I would just stay away from my luggage and in the secure area if possible.

kensteele
01-30-2012, 16:00
I think you are misunderstanding or trying to fog the issue. If you are legally transporting the firearm in your luggage from point A to point B the airlines knows the gun is in the bag since you declared it at check in and TSA also is aware. As long as the bag remain in the airlines possession you don't have a problem. If you are delayed overnight due to weather or some other problem they have possession of the bag, the bag and yourself will continue on to your final destination the next day.

:)

Let's say you decide to sleep in the airport waiting room until your 6am flight, your bags are in "their possession."

Over the loudspeaker "Mr. Pipedreams, paging passenger Pipedreams...please report to the Port Authority baggage claim area for an important message!"

:supergrin:

kensteele
01-30-2012, 16:34
I understand the sentiment and I also would like to do whatever I can to avoid NY with a gun. If you flying from Miami to Philly, you can still end up diverted to JFK due to weather. "Ladies and gentlemen, due to a tornado warning in the Philadelphia area, we have been diverted JFK. It's only 6pm and since this a terminating flight, everyone will have to de-plane. You can get your bags at carousel C and find the nearest agent to re-book your travel to reach your final destination. We are on final approach, flight attendents prepare for landing." :wow:

What do you do now?

I believe NYC has zero tolerance. If you can talk them out of it, good for you. Then there is 911 and your bags and major security at the airport. Hard to customise the process because you "have a gun."

Look at it this way. When your bags go thru the Xrays, which they will, they will see a weapon. If they don't see that card or something looks out of place or they don't remember a gun from this morning or they decide to do a spot check or they check all firearms sop, your bag will be pulled. If TSA reads Miami tag from yesterday (as in the case of overnight) or different flight number, they'll probably call you to the area to talk to you. I've even been to airports where they take you into a small room with a couple agents and they go thru all your guns and stuff. If they ask you for a NYC permit and you don't have one, it's not going to be pretty. NYC has a zero tolerance at that point and you can explain everything later is probably their attitude.

I think you are really, really taking a chance to let your bags go back thru security or screening and in my mind, there is no way to claim your bags have been out of control since you left Miami and that's why you are stuck with unregistered handguns in NYC. Why would they care about how it happened? You think it they found knives or grenades or anything else "along the way" that you are still good just because you passed the first inspection legal and you haven't "possessed" your bags since? Your bag, your gun, no permit = arrest. Plan on it.

but I know what you are saying, I'm not trying to cloud the issue. In my experience, I've had to claim my bags. Even when I slept in the airport, my bags didn't sleep in some secure holding area, to be handled and re-ticketed according to whatever plan I arranged the next day. You had to have your bags with you. At a minimum they still went thru the xrays. YMMV and I would imagine different airports handle them in different ways. You could be sleeping at your hotel room and get a knock at 2am from the bellhop with your bags "you desperated called for" thinking they would spend the night at the airport. Either way, for me it's too risky to feel your bags are on the other side of the security line and are therefore free and clear. If you abandon a gun in NYC that you left in their possession because you didn't want to take possession of your own gun, expect an arrest warrant. You can't leave town and leave your gun behind. Just fyi, I could be wrong about the bags but I just don't see how the airlines could know what to do with a thousands bags coming off that plane. Do they wait to see who is getting on which flight or staying overnight or canceling or do they just drop all the bags, you get your bag and go make new plans with your baggage? My experience has been the latter.

It's sad.

happyguy
01-30-2012, 16:45
The only gun I ever fly with is a four hundred dollar Glock and I always carry enough in my carry on to go a couple of days without my luggage.

"What? That luggage? I have no idea whose luggage that is Mr. Officer Sir but according to the tag it's destination isn't NYC, it's..."

Seriously, once you check the baggage it is the airlines responsibility to get it to your destination. If it was me and I saw my luggage on the ramp I would go to the customer service counter and advise them that they had made a serious error and they better go get my bag and get it to a secure area as they are now responsible for introducing a handgun into NYC.

It's no different than if you FEDEX a gun to Glock in Georgia and they deliver it to Bloomberg's office instead.

Regards,
Happyguy :)

kensteele
01-30-2012, 17:05
The only gun I ever fly with is a four hundred dollar Glock and I always carry enough in my carry on to go a couple of days without my luggage.

"What? That luggage? I have no idea whose luggage that is Mr. Officer Sir but according to the tag it's destination isn't NYC, it's..."

Seriously, once you check the baggage it is the airlines responsibility to get it to your destination. If it was me and I saw my luggage on the ramp I would go to the customer service counter and advise them that they had made a serious error and they better go get my bag and get it to a secure area as they are now responsible for introducing a handgun into NYC.

It's no different than if you FEDEX a gun to Glock in Georgia and they deliver it to Bloomberg's office instead.

Regards,
Happyguy :)

The difference between your firearm with FedEx and your baggage on the airlines is the different between contracting with a common carrier and transporting your baggage with the airlines. The terms and rules are different. IANAL, I'm just thinking NYC doesn't really care about the "rules"...you tell them "they have introduced a handgun in NYC" and they'lll ask you for a permit....it's happened time and time again. You get arrested and then you sort it out in court about who's fault it is. that's my point, i'm sure there is a lot of mitigation, i just don't think the nyc process cares and would just rather arrest you.

Warp
01-30-2012, 20:08
While I disagree that veterans should get a free pass on things that are perfectly legal in most states and a rights ending for life felony in NYC, those laws are insane and unfair and obviously unconstitutional. I don't want to see the former Marine or the med student or the SEAL procecuted for anything, not even a disorderly conduct plea.

Its fun to rail on Plaxico for his ND and general thuggery, but he wasn't punished for that. He would have faced mandatory jail time in that cesspool of a occupied city regardless of his ND. Ironically as a rich celebrity, he would have had the easiest time getting one of their extremely rare and discriminatory permits but still.

Hopefully these high profile cases that even many (though certainlly not all) hard core libtards are reluctant to say are justified will be a catalyst for change in that jacked up little oligarchy police state of a town.

I don't want the former Marine to become a felon and face jail time and loss of rights for life because he did something that was legal almost everywhere else in this country. Yet I don't want him to get a free pass just because he was a veteran. A get out of felong free card is not a perk of enlistment. I hope he doesn't spend one more day in jail and comes out of this with a clean record. He deserves that. But so do all of us. That's the point.

Sweeping this under the rug by giving a few high profile cases leniency while the rest of us peons continue to be ruled by king George ordering his red coats to disarm the "rabble" solves nothing. Hopefully these high profile cases will serve to exert political pressure to expose and change at least some of the extreme anti-rights laws in the city that brags about how much they love freedom and liberty. Having different fundamental Constitutional rights in their entirety when you cross city or state lines means all reaponsibile for those policies are anti-liberty, freedom and USA. Period. The "freedom" to get Chinese food at 3 in the morning or go to musicals and museums does not offset that. Not even close.

I never railed on Plax over anything. I never attributed anything about his sentence to any of those things are you talking about.

I never suggested he should get a free pass because he is a veteran. Actually, that is kind of exactly the opposite of what I said.

I don't want it swept under the rug. That's why I am saying that if this marine gets a couple years in prison maybe things will change.

steveksux
01-30-2012, 20:43
Noooooooooooooo NOT NJ!! You’ll likely be in about the same shape as the rest of us standing in the NY airport refusing to touch our bags! :supergrin:

.
Something to be said for the federal travel law kicking in if you're diverted to NJ, or NY for that matter, and simply take your bag and leave. You are travelling through the state, without stopping (stopping refers to staying overnight, stopping at a destination, not a waypoint).

Randy

Misty02
01-31-2012, 04:53
Something to be said for the federal travel law kicking in if you're diverted to NJ, or NY for that matter, and simply take your bag and leave. You are travelling through the state, without stopping (stopping refers to staying overnight, stopping at a destination, not a waypoint).

Randy

Based on my limited understanding of the federal travel laws I would agree if we were dealing with any other state. Based on the same travel law we should also be ok for an unscheduled stop/delay over which we had no control. However, that has proven to not be the case. Matters may be further complicated for those of us with mag capacity over 10 rounds; in the case of NJ one more issue if we are carrying HP.

I believe the federal law may offer a defense but based on the strict gun laws in NYC I don’t believe it would prevent the arrest nor all that follow before the final conviction.

I think a lot would depend on what one can articulate. The federal law seems to address only how in the “vehicle” it can be transported. As I read it nothing below offers protection from the time the airline hands you the luggage and you take possession to the time you place it in the trunk of the rental vehicle. The excerpt below also states that it is up to a jury to decide what constitutes an “interruption”. In the case of an unscheduled stop/delay the only thing we might be to prove is that “we” didn’t create the “interruption” and that the “interruption” was beyond our control.

I have no clue how well it would go for me and I will do everything in my power to never have to find out; however, I believe it might be easier for my attorney to defend the case (difficulty translates to time and time translates to cost) if “I” didn’t actively participate in the interruption of the transportation of the firearm by taking actual possession of the luggage before it reached its final destination.

Mind you, I wish to be proven wrong and for there to be no issues. I’m often guilty of over-thinking things and hope this is no exception.

http://www.handgunlaw.us/documents/USRVCarCarry.pdf (http://www.handgunlaw.us/documents/USRVCarCarry.pdf)

Code of Federal Regulations
Title 18 - Part I - Chapter 44 - § 926a
§ 926A. Interstate Transportation of Firearms
Release date: 2005-08-03
Notwithstanding any other provision of any law or any rule or regulation of a State or any political subdivision thereof, any person who is not otherwise prohibited by this chapter from transporting, shipping, or receiving a firearm shall be entitled to transport a firearm for any lawful purpose from any place where he may lawfully possess and carry such firearm to any other place where he may lawfully possess and carry such firearm if, during such transportation the firearm is unloaded, and neither the firearm nor any ammunition being transported is readily accessible or is directly accessible from the passenger compartment of such transporting vehicle: Provided, That in the case of a vehicle without a compartment separate from the driver’s compartment the firearm or ammunition shall be contained in a locked container other than the glove compartment or console. http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/uscode18/usc_sec_18_00000926---A000-.html

It is illegal to carry any loaded firearm in any motor vehicle without a valid New York Permit/License to Carry. It is legal to transport a legal firearm through New York but if you interrupt your trip you are breaking the law. What is an interruption to your trip could be for the jury to decide. (See transporting firearms thru NY above) NY also has restrictions on the type of firearms you can possess in NY and Magazines that hold more than 10 rounds or can be converted to hold more than 10 rounds are illegal. Use extreme caution when transporting a firearm through NY.

From the NRA/ILA on Transporting Firearms through NY.

It is unlawful for any person to carry, possess or transport a handgun in or through the state unless he has a valid New York license. (A provision of federal law provides a defense to state or local laws which would prohibit the passage of persons with firearms in interstate travel if the person is traveling from any place where he may lawfully possess and transport a firearm to any other place where he may lawfully possess and transport such firearm and the firearm is unloaded and in the trunk. In vehicles without a trunk, the unloaded firearm shall be in a locked container other than the glove compartment or console).

ithaca_deerslayer
01-31-2012, 07:31
Matters may be further complicated for those of us with mag capacity over 10 rounds;

Oh yeah, forgot about that goodie.

No 11+ round mags allowed in NYS unless made before the magic 1994 date. Otherwise, possession of them is a felony.

Thank you for flying with us and please enjoy your stay :rofl:

PAGunner
01-31-2012, 09:00
Matters may be further complicated for those of us with mag capacity over 10 rounds; in the case of NJ one more issue if we are carrying HP.[/FONT][/COLOR]

In NJ you can own and possess hollow points, you just can't carry them. Being that you're traveling your gun would be unloaded and a non-issue. the 11+ capacity gun in NY, you're screwed, that is another felony charge. NY does not seem to care about the federal law trumping their state law. This is why I never want to step foot inside that communist hellhole again.

I believe in NJ you cannot possess over a 15 round magazine, but I'm not sure what the penalties are if you break that law.

malakas
01-31-2012, 15:56
I don’t see how I can righteously sue a non-guilty party for an injustice; the agency and individual officers were just doing the job they were hired to do. However, that is the way things seem to work and one day one of us may find ourselves doing the wrong thing for the right reasons (not something that would be easy to live with). I would much rather sue Major Bloomberg and others that support making felons out of people who exercise their right to self-defense.

Since I don’t possess the bankroll to do either, the wisest thing for me to do is to stay out of those places.

If something out of my control takes place and I find myself stuck in those states and I’m flying with a checked firearm, I rather forfeit the entire content of my luggage permanently than lay a hand on it and end up spending in legal fees more than the value inside it. Wallgreens sells everything I could need for a night stranded somewhere.

I just had visions of someone calling the paramedics after seeing me white as a sheet of paper and sweating profusely after someone tells me “I’m sorry ma’am, we’re stranded here in NYC for the night, we will give you a voucher for a flight on us and pay for your night’s stay.” Then some do-gooder showing up at the hospital to take me my luggage. I’ll surely end up in the committed once I start backing up yelling “keep THAT away from me!” :rofl: Either way, I’m doomed! No more firearms for me!

.

Its a matter of degree I suppose. "Just following orders" only goes so far. Everyone, from officer to "contractor" that stormed peaceful homes and illegally disarmed citizens during Katrina should face massive time in jail and become felons for the rest of their lives and have their pensions eliminated. There is no excuse for that. None. Ever.

A city cop following proper procedure but enforcing an unjust law gets a little more murky. Although if you were a cop and the law was all black people had to go to the back of the bus and you were called out to arrest someone for ot following that law, would you bow down to tyrrany and haul them away or would you do the right thing and not arrest them even if it means resigning?

As for your checked bag scenario, I agree that no matter what don't take possession. But what if the airlines demanded you had to and said that if you didn't they would call the police and tell them you abandoned an *gasp!* unregistered handgun in their pristine non gun state? So even if you just walked away and told them to keep it, you could still maybe face prosecution. So I'd remain in the secure area and call a lawyer and the police and have it resolved before I even left the part of the airport where I could even theoretically possess the firearm in the first place. If the officer that took that call was so uneducated as to arrest someone in that case just to please his radically anti gun chain of command, that officer needs to be sued, fired, bankrupted and lose his pension because anyone that moronic has no business being in that position of authority and trust in the first place.

A cop on the streets arresting you for gun charges when you have a gun on you, even if unfair and unconstitutional, is one thing. You could give the officer a pass on that and concentrate your legal actions on those above him like you said.

But arresting you in a secure area when you called them first and you are not in possession of a gun and are only there though no fault of your own should not lead to an arrest. Ever. If it does, agressive lawsuits are the only answer and they need to be at the personal level otherwise "just following orders" will be the rationale for perpetual abuses.

malakas
01-31-2012, 16:02
Something to be said for the federal travel law kicking in if you're diverted to NJ, or NY for that matter, and simply take your bag and leave. You are travelling through the state, without stopping (stopping refers to staying overnight, stopping at a destination, not a waypoint).

Randy

But they will still arrest you and even if the courts agree with you, you will still face many thousands of dollars in legal fees and have an "arrest record for gun charges" for the rest of your life.

Individuals need to be sued for life altering ammounts or this insanity will never change.

malakas
01-31-2012, 16:10
I never suggested he should get a free pass because he is a veteran. Actually, that is kind of exactly the opposite of what I said.

I don't want it swept under the rug. That's why I am saying that if this marine gets a couple years in prison maybe things will change.

That's an interesting take. Sadly I don't think a ex-private first class with no medal of honor going to jail for this will be enough to change anything. The med student is screwed and the SEAL will get off with a slap on the wrist behind the scenes and everyone will forget about all of them and the insanity will continue. Reform at the federal level and/or budget crushing lawsuits are the only way to fix this unless someone really high profile (in a positive way) finds themselves in this position like a Medal of Honor winner or Sulley, etc.

acg8276
02-01-2012, 05:49
Perhaps the biggest hurdle to overcome in NYC is the thinking of those in charge. Some decisions make you scratch your head and really wonder.

http://www.dnainfo.com/20120131/manhattan/cops-banned-from-owning-nypd-t-shirts-merchandise#ixzz1l7ErDHHe

hunter won
02-01-2012, 09:01
LaGuardia airport is Queens County. The DA has given Discon deals out to people busted at the Airport. The Manhattan DA is not going to plea bargain when it comes to someone with an out of state license. Best for these people to go to jury trial. NY has never had reciprocity. Mayor Bloomberg doesn't care about these people.

hunter won
02-01-2012, 09:19
That's an interesting take. Sadly I don't think a ex-private first class with no medal of honor going to jail for this will be enough to change anything. The med student is screwed and the SEAL will get off with a slap on the wrist behind the scenes and everyone will forget about all of them and the insanity will continue. Reform at the federal level and/or budget crushing lawsuits are the only way to fix this unless someone really high profile (in a positive way) finds themselves in this position like a Medal of Honor winner or Sulley, etc. All charged with felonies no breaks, Plaxico is an excellent example.
NYC is anti-gun, Nothing well change because of the liberals running the show.