Israeli Carry [Archive] - Glock Talk

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Jake Starr
01-27-2012, 18:18
How many know that you can carry Israeli with or without a round in the chamber?


Can you tell me?

Rumbler_G20
01-27-2012, 18:30
I'm not an Israeli, so my information is second hand. But it did come first hand from some IDF trainers I worked with last year.

The civilian programs calls for unchambered carry. But they have a very fast very . . funny looking . . technique for getting that round into the pistol in a big hurry.

Again, second hand information. And given the amount of unbridled joy they got out of introducing me to the receiving end of their black tipped simunitions, it would not surprise me if they were not yanking my chain just for kicks. :upeyes:

Rumbler_G20
01-27-2012, 18:33
The Israeli Instinctive Combat Shooting Method: AGI 301 - YouTube

Found a demo. Dang, they were not just yanking my chain. Watch the arms when he loads the pistol.

slickt0mmy
01-27-2012, 18:56
Personally, I do not train with the assumption that on the most unfortunate day of my life I will be able to get into a perfect bent-knee stance, have both hands completely free, draw, turn my firearm sideways, rack the slide, aim, and fire.
I go with the assumption that the encounter will be fast and sloppy, with an awkward stance and only one hand free (possibly my non-dominant) and all I will have time to do is draw, point, and fire.
I don't claim to be an expert but IMO, Israeli Carry bases it's entire philosophy on the hope that you will encounter a "perfect world" self-defense situation. But if this were a perfect world, none of us would need to carry firearms in the first place.

Hope for the best. Train for the worst.

Sgt_Gold
01-27-2012, 19:15
How many know that you can carry Israeli with or without a round in the chamber?


Can you tell me?

Are you serious?:upeyes:

If you carry with a round in the chamber why rack the slide when drawing? Or are you one of those 'hollywood' types?:whistling:

Deaf Smith
01-27-2012, 21:12
And like in another thread here, if you are a 65 year old man that has just been pushed off a bicycle and beaten by three thugs, you gonna have time to draw AND chamber a round?

Now the guy in the video has a) no coat, b) large pistol, c) in broad daylight, d) no one shooting at him, e) no one grappling with him, f) TWO HANDS.

Honestly, if you fear having a chamber loaded simi-auto, just pack a revolver.

Deaf

pipedreams
01-27-2012, 21:32
And like in another thread here, if you are a 65 year old man that has just been pushed off a bicycle and beaten by three thugs, you gonna have time to draw AND chamber a round?

:goodpost:

You beat me to it........................

Lior
01-28-2012, 09:02
What gun owners really need is a G17 that makes a hammer clicking noise before shooting, as heard in the Matrix.

hawgrider
01-28-2012, 09:09
I'll stick with one in the chamber and don't have to worry about some slight chance of something going wrong especially under stress.

Pierre!
01-28-2012, 09:57
Personally, I would like to get at least 1 round off...

They didn't demo the *speed* to load the pistol when (not if, we know it happens) the first round nose dives (for whatever reason) and yer standing there with a pistol that has a slide jammed open?

When you get one round off, at least someone is running for cover... and I will probably be that person! :supergrin:

All firearms ARE always loaded when holstered, condition 1, for me at anyway...

Fun Video! Needless to say, you won't see me pressing my luck by picking a fight... :rofl: They certainly do load and fire quickly!!!

Patrick

Jake Starr
01-28-2012, 18:28
Great comments so far. And it is doing as I had hoped.

Israeli carry is NOT the same thing as carrying C3 or without a round in the chamber.

Israeli carry is more of a technique and a mindset.

I carry "Israeli" every time I carry a gun. Sometimes I have a round in the chamber, sometimes I do not. It is all situation specific... If you don't understand what I am saying, well then, you don't understand what it means to carry "Israeli."

dosei
01-28-2012, 19:04
How many know that you can carry Israeli with or without a round in the chamber?


Can you tell me?

Technically, there is no such thing as "Israeli Carry". There is, however, the Israeli Draw Technique...which was developed around idea of carrying C3 with all manual safeties off. The Israeli Draw Technique is part of the Israeli ICS (Instinctive Combat Shooting) Method. The fact that the Israeli Draw Technique was developed around C3 carry has, over time, resulted in the term "Israeli Carry" being created and used as the popular term for C3 carry. This, despite the fact that C3 carry was the norm (for auto-loading pistol carry) for all the world for most of the last century...including the US. C3 carry is still the norm for much of the world. But since it was the Israeli's that developed a draw technique for C3 which became fairly well known, the term C3 carry has fallen out of "vogue" in the US and has been replaced with the term "Israeli Carry"...resulting in a great deal of confusion and misinformation regarding C3 carry. And the vast majority of people in the US that choose to carry C3, have absolutely no idea what the Israeli ICS Method is or how to properly execute the Israeli Draw Technique.

Spiffums
01-28-2012, 19:25
<Insert the Not This Stuff Again! jpeg>

bear62
01-29-2012, 07:44
I'm in my 70's AND have bad arthritis in my left hand. (I shoot right handed). Sometimes it is difficult for me to actually "rack" the slide....... SOOO I carry with one in the chamber.... Be safe........:wavey:

Glenn E. Meyer
01-29-2012, 08:38
Doesn't the OP start this discussion every once in a while. Boring.

Quarter Tank
01-29-2012, 08:41
I agree. always carry a hot round

rvrctyrngr
01-29-2012, 11:09
Oh, goody. Another C3/'Israeli thread...haven't had one in at least a week!

:faint:

Glockdude1
01-29-2012, 11:23
Why the infactuation with Israeli carry and use of pistols?

:headscratch:

Amsdorf
01-29-2012, 11:27
Why the infactuation? Probably the same reason why some people have nearly 22,000 posts on this site. Infactuation can be hard to explain.

;)

mdsn969
01-29-2012, 11:36
I always carry in condition 3.

To each his own, no one will change my mind and I won't change anyone's mind.

So why don't we drop this discussion and talk about vaccines or school prayer :whistling:

G-19
01-29-2012, 11:45
I don't see a problem with someone carrying either way. To me it is personal preference and whatever you feel comfortable with.

I personally carry with one chambered, but I use a good holster that covers the trigger. If I were to decide to use the Clipdraw I would go with an unloaded chamber.

The key to both methods is ability and training.

Glockdude1
01-29-2012, 11:58
Why the infactuation? Probably the same reason why some people have nearly 22,000 posts on this site. Infactuation can be hard to explain.

;)

:rofl:

esh325
01-29-2012, 12:05
Not an expert, but I believe the racking of the slide just allows more room for error. I think everybody should carry one in the chamber, unless the particular firearm is maybe not safe to carry with one in the chamber.

ATW525
01-29-2012, 12:25
All the Israelis I've met have been too big to carry, so I just carry a pistol with the chamber loaded instead.

Steve50
01-29-2012, 16:25
Apparently no one has learned anything from Andy or Barney. Gun empty - one in the shirt pocket. Gives you plenty of time to think, before doing anything rash....

Glenn E. Meyer
01-30-2012, 10:23
Apparently no one has learned anything from Andy or Barney. Gun empty - one in the shirt pocket. Gives you plenty of time to think, before doing anything rash....

That only works if you can call Aunt Bea for backup.

Well, Jake, did you get the point yet again?

Turk
01-30-2012, 21:21
In my opinion, if you cannot trust your pistol with one in the pipe you should not carry the/a pistol. I mean is this really a problem? I read a LOT of news about firearms and cannot remember reading anything about a pistol accidently discharging while holstered with all of the available safeties properly set (with proof). All that movement during the draw just, seems to me, to invite other types of accidents.

What makes more sense: draw, aim, fire or draw, gangsta position gun, rack slide, un-gangsta, aim, fire, gangsta again (I think?) then I lost count?

mdsn969
01-31-2012, 00:03
In my opinion, if you cannot trust your pistol with one in the pipe you should not carry the/a pistol. I mean is this really a problem? I read a LOT of news about firearms and cannot remember reading anything about a pistol accidently discharging while holstered with all of the available safeties properly set (with proof). All that movement during the draw just, seems to me, to invite other types of accidents.

What makes more sense: draw, aim, fire or draw, gangsta position gun, rack slide, un-gangsta, aim, fire, gangsta again (I think?) then I lost count?

Part of the reason the Israelis carry in Condition 3 and the reason I do as well is if your gun is taken away from you (and it is an extraordinarily easy thing to have happen), there will not be "one in the pipe" to shoot you with. Once again you won't change my mind and I won't change yours, but it has nothing to do with the safety/trust of the weapon, it is all about proper self defense techniques.

NEOH212
01-31-2012, 01:10
I never saw the point of carrying without a round in the chamber. For all the trouble and training that it would take to become proficient with the Israeli carry method, it seems more logical to me to just carry with one in the pipe and have the gun ready as soon as the gun comes out of the holster. There is less spent training to instinctively chamber a round and more time spent on getting good solid and fast hits on the target.

If someone is that concerned about the gun discharging because there is a round in the chamber, I would suggest that they obtain a better quality gun that's safe to carry with a round chambered.

The Israeli carry method does not get my vote and never will. To me, it just pointless.

NEOH212
01-31-2012, 01:12
Part of the reason the Israelis carry in Condition 3 and the reason I do as well is if your gun is taken away from you (and it is an extraordinarily easy thing to have happen), there will not be "one in the pipe" to shoot you with. Once again you won't change my mind and I won't change yours, but it has nothing to do with the safety/trust of the weapon, it is all about proper self defense techniques.

More time and training should be spent on handgun retention. I will agree that your argument is on solid ground though.

mdsn969
01-31-2012, 01:20
I never saw the point of carrying without a round in the chamber. For all the trouble and training that it would take to become proficient with the Israeli carry method, it seems more logical to me to just carry with one in the pipe and have the gun ready as soon as the gun comes out of the holster. There is less spent training to instinctively chamber a round and more time spent on getting good solid and fast hits on the target.

If someone is that concerned about the gun discharging because there is a round in the chamber, I would suggest that they obtain a better quality gun that's safe to carry with a round chambered.

The Israeli carry method does not get my vote and never will. To me, it just pointless.

You have a higher chance of surviving an encounter in a self defense situation carrying in Condition 3 than with one in the chamber. If an attacker is less than 21 feet from you (some say 17 feet), you will not be able to draw and discharge your weapon. In the process of drawing your weapon the attacker will close the distance and try to take the weapon from you and if he succeeds it is better that you do not have a round in the chamber, i.e. you do not get shot. I have taught martial arts including KM for years and it is rare that one of us will carry in any condition other than Condition 3... IMHO

Glenn E. Meyer
01-31-2012, 13:51
Any real world incidents that back up the probabilities you cite?

As far as the 21 foot limit, training in movement enables you to draw the gun. Seems to be a common technique in higher level classes.

SigFTW
01-31-2012, 14:10
All the Israelis I've met have been too big to carry, so I just carry a pistol with the chamber loaded instead.

Dhahaha, I am glad I was not drinking coffee when I read this.:rofl:

I carry loaded too.

Deaf Smith
01-31-2012, 17:22
You have a higher chance of surviving an encounter in a self defense situation carrying in Condition 3 than with one in the chamber. If an attacker is less than 21 feet from you (some say 17 feet), you will not be able to draw and discharge your weapon. In the process of drawing your weapon the attacker will close the distance and try to take the weapon from you and if he succeeds it is better that you do not have a round in the chamber, i.e. you do not get shot. I have taught martial arts including KM for years and it is rare that one of us will carry in any condition other than Condition 3... IMHO

Mdsn,

Now the 21 ft rule assumes a) they have their knife out, b) your gun is still in the holster, c) you stand still, d) your only thought is to draw the weapon and not do such as move behind an obstacle, move oblique, attack (as you know in KM you can use a solid front kick and stop them dead in their tracks,) or flat out run away.

This ASSUMPTION is what makes an ass out of you and me:-) In any confrontation there are indicators that can be read to see what is happening (or going to happen.) One is wise to learn to read them as they are maybe more important than ones H2H or shooting skills.

Wither the weapon is C1 or C3 does not force you to either duke it out or draw, THAT should depend on the individual and the circumstances.

But as I have posted, it's mighty hard to do a chamber rack while being beaten, but easy to just draw to retention and fire.

Deaf

mdsn969
01-31-2012, 22:21
Mdsn,

Now the 21 ft rule assumes a) they have their knife out, b) your gun is still in the holster, c) you stand still, d) your only thought is to draw the weapon and not do such as move behind an obstacle, move oblique, attack (as you know in KM you can use a solid front kick and stop them dead in their tracks,) or flat out run away.

This ASSUMPTION is what makes an ass out of you and me:-) In any confrontation there are indicators that can be read to see what is happening (or going to happen.) One is wise to learn to read them as they are maybe more important than ones H2H or shooting skills.

Wither the weapon is C1 or C3 does not force you to either duke it out or draw, THAT should depend on the individual and the circumstances.

But as I have posted, it's mighty hard to do a chamber rack while being beaten, but easy to just draw to retention and fire.

Deaf

Deaf, all good points. We trained in more scenarios than I care to imagine. Attacker with a knife, without a knife, with a bat (tire iron etc) and never at 17 ft and closer was a handgun particularly useful, at 21 ft and further maybe.

As an aside in very close quarters I am not particularly afraid of a handgun, they are just way to easy to take away from someone (especially from someone that is not trained or hesitates), now a knife is a whole different kettle of fish, they scare the crap out of me. (the knife not the fish)

Anyway great discussion, at least you know my reasoning behind Condition 3 carry. It has nothing to do with fear or confidence in the weapon...

Have a great evening...

NEOH212
02-01-2012, 03:34
You have a higher chance of surviving an encounter in a self defense situation carrying in Condition 3 than with one in the chamber. If an attacker is less than 21 feet from you (some say 17 feet), you will not be able to draw and discharge your weapon. In the process of drawing your weapon the attacker will close the distance and try to take the weapon from you and if he succeeds it is better that you do not have a round in the chamber, i.e. you do not get shot. I have taught martial arts including KM for years and it is rare that one of us will carry in any condition other than Condition 3... IMHO

Your assuming that the person that your advancing on hasn't trained equally well in a fast draw technique and other tactics, and able to shoot you at least three times before you close the distance. :whistling:

Edited to add: Maybe I wouldn't be able to shoot the attacker that fast and as a result would have my gun taken from me if I had to fumble with chambering a round first.:whistling:

So, in that case, I can argue that Israeli carry could actually get you killed.:whistling:

Note: I'll continue to carry with a round in the chamber. :supergrin:

Jack19
02-01-2012, 03:51
Pistol Shooting Course - Israel - YouTube

mdsn969
02-01-2012, 11:08
So, in that case, I can argue that Israeli carry could actually get you killed.:whistling:

It won't, Condition 3 will save your life, but up to you, I really could care less how you carry :supergrin:

SpringerTGO
02-01-2012, 11:28
I think the 21' rule is way over abused. Yes, it has been proven that a determined attacker, who knows what he is doing, can close that distance before the victim can draw and fire a weapon. Especially if the victim is not well trained. But if you teach KM you should know there are techniques to deal with that scenario. At least LEO's are taught them.
I read all the time, about victims drawing their weapons and firing in a lot shorter distance than 21'.
I read about that a lot more often than I hear about trained people being disarmed.
There was just such an instance posted today in Glocktalk, where both attackers were armed.

There is no rule that says you have to lose if the attacker is less than 21' away. Even if the attacker is determined.
If that is your primary concern, train for it.

What do you tell people who carry revolvers? My J frame is only a 5 shot. Should I leave the first cylinder empty?

mdsn969
02-01-2012, 11:44
I think the 21' rule is way over abused. Yes, it has been proven that a determined attacker, who knows what he is doing, can close that distance before the victim can draw and fire a weapon. Especially if the victim is not well trained. But if you teach KM you should know there are techniques to deal with that scenario. At least LEO's are taught them.
I read all the time, about victims drawing their weapons and firing in a lot shorter distance than 21'.
I read about that a lot more often than I hear about trained people being disarmed.
There was just such an instance posted today in Glocktalk, where both attackers were armed.

There is no rule that says you have to lose if the attacker is less than 21' away. Even if the attacker is determined.
If that is your primary concern, train for it.

What do you tell people who carry revolvers? My J frame is only a 5 shot. Should I leave the first cylinder empty?

Look all I am doing is reiterating what the data shows, as a result of the data and my specific training, I carry Condition 3. I really don't give a rats :moonie: :supergrin: how you or anyone else carries, it is 100% up to you and your preference.

I have said my piece and am done. Yes revolvers are a higher risk from that perspective.

Marc1956
02-01-2012, 12:00
All the Israelis I've met have been too big to carry, so I just carry a pistol with the chamber loaded instead.

:rofl::rofl::rofl:

SpringerTGO
02-01-2012, 12:18
Look all I am doing is reiterating what the data shows, as a result of the data and my specific training, I carry Condition 3. I really don't give a rats :moonie: :supergrin: how you or anyone else carries, it is 100% up to you and your preference.

I have said my piece and am done. Yes revolvers are a higher risk from that perspective.

If you don't give a rats :supergrin: why do you keep pushing a condition 3 agenda?
The data you are citing is not the holy grail. We got it. Bad things can happen at less than 21'. Your specific training appears to mean it's a death sentence.
I won't even bother with your argument against revolvers, because an awful lot of experts seem to think they work just fine.

We know it's 100% up to us, but thanks for your permission.

PAGunner
02-01-2012, 12:29
Haha, another C1 vs. C3 thread. I'll state again, when I started carrying I was scared to carry a glock with 1 in the pipe, I think this is natural, but most people quickly grow out of this stage. Personally now, I think anyone that's serious about carrying and carries C3 is crazy. I just hope and pray those people don't need their weapon, because it will likely be a very bad day for them, way too many things can go wrong. Nothing will go wrong with C1 if you practice gun safety, it's really that simple.

For those who carry a Glock C3 because they're worried about an ND, this is what I did to get over that irrational fear. I carried a Glock, cocked without 1 in the pipe for a week or two. I soon realized the gun will not just go off and 1 in the pipe is perfectly safe because I practice gun safety. YMMV

Glotin
02-01-2012, 15:16
How many know that you can carry Israeli with or without a round in the chamber?


Can you tell me?

Great comments so far. And it is doing as I had hoped.

Israeli carry is NOT the same thing as carrying C3 or without a round in the chamber.

Israeli carry is more of a technique and a mindset.

I carry "Israeli" every time I carry a gun. Sometimes I have a round in the chamber, sometimes I do not. It is all situation specific... If you don't understand what I am saying, well then, you don't understand what it means to carry "Israeli."

Congratulations! You know the real secret meaning of Israeli carry that everyone else just doesn't understand! You get a gold star!

...Is that what you were looking for?

Jake Starr
02-01-2012, 17:08
Congratulations! You know the real secret meaning of Israeli carry that everyone else just doesn't understand! You get a gold star!

...Is that what you were looking for?


Well in a word yes.

Why? Because I too, as many here, had confused the Israeli method with that of merely C3 carry. They are not synonymous, as others have pointed out. C3 was around a lot longer than the Israeli method of carry. The Israeli method has more to do with a mindset that one has when carrying, about how to deploy the weapon and what to do when facing a humanoid. In a word it is Krav Maga with a pistol. There is no force continuum, no time, distance and cover, no later movement away from your target. One is either shooting or moving, never neither, never both. And one does not retreat from the humanoid, but rather moves quickly towards them once they are down, in order to finish them off. When target is up, stop and shoot. Target down, sprint toward the target to finish or only stop to reengage if target gets back up. The Israeli method teaches that one does not primarily carry a gun to protect oneself but rather to protect others.

If you have never taken a class in Israeli Combat shooting I strongly suggest that you do so…they are many out there but very few real deals. If you have the chance to get to one, go. If you need help finding one, contact me. I have been to many shooting schools and even the FBI LEO firearms instructor academy. With everything that I have been exposed to, I will take the Israeli method over any method out there. Bar none. And whether you carry C1 or C3 is irrelevant.

RJ's Guns
02-01-2012, 18:26
Well in a word yes.

Why? Because I too, as many here, had confused the Israeli method with that of merely C3 carry. They are not synonymous, as others have pointed out. C3 was around a lot longer than the Israeli method of carry. The Israeli method has more to do with a mindset that one has when carrying, about how to deploy the weapon and what to do when facing a humanoid. In a word it is Krav Maga with a pistol. There is no force continuum, no time, distance and cover, no later movement away from your target. One is either shooting or moving, never neither, never both. And one does not retreat from the humanoid, but rather moves quickly towards them once they are down, in order to finish them off. When target is up, stop and shoot. Target down, sprint toward the target to finish or only stop to reengage if target gets back up. The Israeli method teaches that one does not primarily carry a gun to protect oneself but rather to protect others.

If you have never taken a class in Israeli Combat shooting I strongly suggest that you do so…they are many out there but very few real deals. If you have the chance to get to one, go. If you need help finding one, contact me. I have been to many shooting schools and even the FBI LEO firearms instructor academy. With everything that I have been exposed to, I will take the Israeli method over any method out there. Bar none. And whether you carry C1 or C3 is irrelevant.


Re; “One is either shooting or moving, never neither, never both”

I have seen an awful lot of people in IPSC and IDPA matches who shoot while moving that are quick and very accurate.

Re; “And one does not retreat from the humanoid, but rather moves quickly towards them once they are down, in order to finish them off.”

That is some crazy advice and tactics that could cause someone to be prosecuted for murder or manslaughter. You run up to someone who is down and not an imminent threat and give them a coup de grace shot or two, “to finish them off” and most prosecutors that I know would charge you with murder one. Furthermore, a lot of state impose a duty to retreat, unless retreat is not possible without a reasonable fear of death or serious injury.

I find it impossible to believe that anyone who has actually “been to many shooting schools and even the FBI LEO firearms instructor academy,” as you claim, would ever advocate and espouse such foolish crap.

A graduate of the ” FBI LEO firearms instructor academy,” how gullible and foolish do you think we are? No FBI instructor is going to teach students to shoot someone that is down and not an imminent threat “in order to finish them off.”

RJ

glock_collector
02-01-2012, 18:51
Training with louis Awerbuck this last year, his opinion was that 21 ft. was not enough space, but rather 30ft is more practical for a "bubble". Louis showed this with a demo. I always carry one in the chamber and confirm before holstering that one actually made it into the pipe. Seconds count.

Deaf Smith
02-01-2012, 20:11
It won't, Condition 3 will save your life, but up to you, I really could care less how you carry :supergrin:

How does it save your life mdsn?

From AD/NDs?

Deaf

mdsn969
02-01-2012, 20:38
If you don't give a rats :supergrin: why do you keep pushing a condition 3 agenda?
The data you are citing is not the holy grail. We got it. Bad things can happen at less than 21'. Your specific training appears to mean it's a death sentence.
I won't even bother with your argument against revolvers, because an awful lot of experts seem to think they work just fine.

We know it's 100% up to us, but thanks for your permission.

My pleasure, glad I could help you. Now get me a beer...

mdsn969
02-01-2012, 20:49
How does it save your life mdsn?

From AD/NDs?

Deaf

I believe that I covered that in detail above...

Glockdude1
02-02-2012, 05:57
I believe that I covered that in detail above...

http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/duty_calls.png

:cool:

mdsn969
02-02-2012, 09:41
http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/duty_calls.png

:cool:

Hahahahahahaha :cool:

dosei
02-02-2012, 09:51
Well in a word yes.

Why? Because I too, as many here, had confused the Israeli method with that of merely C3 carry. They are not synonymous, as others have pointed out. C3 was around a lot longer than the Israeli method of carry. The Israeli method has more to do with a mindset that one has when carrying, about how to deploy the weapon and what to do when facing a humanoid. In a word it is Krav Maga with a pistol. There is no force continuum, no time, distance and cover, no later movement away from your target. One is either shooting or moving, never neither, never both. And one does not retreat from the humanoid, but rather moves quickly towards them once they are down, in order to finish them off. When target is up, stop and shoot. Target down, sprint toward the target to finish or only stop to reengage if target gets back up. The Israeli method teaches that one does not primarily carry a gun to protect oneself but rather to protect others.

If you have never taken a class in Israeli Combat shooting I strongly suggest that you do so…they are many out there but very few real deals. If you have the chance to get to one, go. If you need help finding one, contact me. I have been to many shooting schools and even the FBI LEO firearms instructor academy. With everything that I have been exposed to, I will take the Israeli method over any method out there. Bar none. And whether you carry C1 or C3 is irrelevant.

Jake...there is no "Israeli Method of Carry". There is the Israeli ICS Method, which is a method of Target Engagement. The term "Israeli Carry" was coined in the US and does mean C3 carry. Much like Kleenex has become a common word used instead of tissue. If someone asks if you have any Kleenex, they are not interested in whether or not you hold any shares of the company...they want a tissue. When someone says Israeli Carry they are taking about C3, not the Israeli ICS Method. If you want to help bring clarity to the difference between Israeli Carry and the Israeli Instictive Combat Shooting Method, then stop lumping them together...that is what created the mess of confusion in the first place!

Deaf Smith
02-02-2012, 17:33
I believe that I covered that in detail above...

Are you talking about having it taken away from you?

Now really mdsn, how often would a CCW holder have that done to them .vs. the times they need to shoot?

I mean you keep taking about the 21 ft rule, which is time intensive, yet now you worry about them taking the guns from them?

So that means you don't favor revolvers either, right?

Deaf

Sgt_Gold
02-02-2012, 19:58
Well in a word yes.

Why? Because I too, as many here, had confused the Israeli method with that of merely C3 carry. They are not synonymous, as others have pointed out. C3 was around a lot longer than the Israeli method of carry. The Israeli method has more to do with a mindset that one has when carrying, about how to deploy the weapon and what to do when facing a humanoid. In a word it is Krav Maga with a pistol. There is no force continuum, no time, distance and cover, no later movement away from your target. One is either shooting or moving, never neither, never both. And one does not retreat from the humanoid, but rather moves quickly towards them once they are down, in order to finish them off. When target is up, stop and shoot. Target down, sprint toward the target to finish or only stop to reengage if target gets back up. The Israeli method teaches that one does not primarily carry a gun to protect oneself but rather to protect others.

If you have never taken a class in Israeli Combat shooting I strongly suggest that you do so…they are many out there but very few real deals. If you have the chance to get to one, go. If you need help finding one, contact me. I have been to many shooting schools and even the FBI LEO firearms instructor academy. With everything that I have been exposed to, I will take the Israeli method over any method out there. Bar none. And whether you carry C1 or C3 is irrelevant.

Get out much?:whistling:

Jake Starr
02-02-2012, 21:16
Jake...there is no "Israeli Method of Carry". There is the Israeli ICS Method, which is a method of Target Engagement. The term "Israeli Carry" was coined in the US and does mean C3 carry. Much like Kleenex has become a common word used instead of tissue. If someone asks if you have any Kleenex, they are not interested in whether or not you hold any shares of the company...they want a tissue. When someone says Israeli Carry they are taking about C3, not the Israeli ICS Method. If you want to help bring clarity to the difference between Israeli Carry and the Israeli Instictive Combat Shooting Method, then stop lumping them together...that is what created the mess of confusion in the first place!


Sorry but I beg to differ.

Israel carry as coined in the US may mean C3 here but not the same in Israel. At least not today...the Israelis are always morphing and modifying their techniques…While it started out as C3 back in the day and they predominantly still carry C3 in civilian areas or safe zones, they also carry C1 in other situations.

You ask an Israeli, specifically someone in the IDF, how he is carrying, C3 or C1, it may be an irrelevant question. They will tell you it all depends upon the situation. While Israeli Carry using C3 is the foundation of Israeli Instinctive Combat Shooting, it is by no means the exclusive method of carrying a handgun or rifle for that matter. ICS also includes C1 carry.

Israeli Carry, be it C3 or C1 and the Israeli Instinctive Combat Shooting Method, are part and parcel of the same package. This is not my imagination. I was firmly upbraided for trying to make such a said distinction...This is from first had instruction from former Duvdevan instructors, as well as, the former LTC who was in charge of all firearms training for the entire IDF.

Jake Starr
02-07-2012, 05:44
Get out much?

Enough too know that I am confident in my description of which I speak.

RJ's Guns
02-07-2012, 19:32
ooops

RJ's Guns
02-07-2012, 19:41
Enough too know that I am confident in my description of which I speak.

At first I thought that your alias was "Yankee Marshall" and that you were advocating “Carry Condition Tactical Butterscotch”, but I subsequently learned the error of my ways.

Perhaps those of you that opine about how much safer, etc. Condition 3/Israeli Carry is, than condition 1, will adopt “Carry Condition Tactical Butterscotch.”

The appropriate video regarding “Carry Condition Tactical Butterscotch” is linked as follows:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8pU2IOTEZlU

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i_nBU11kulo&feature=related

With all due respect,
RJ

carloglock19
02-07-2012, 19:51
In my opinion, if you cannot trust your pistol with one in the pipe you should not carry the/a pistol. I mean is this really a problem? I read a LOT of news about firearms and cannot remember reading anything about a pistol accidently discharging while holstered with all of the available safeties properly set (with proof). All that movement during the draw just, seems to me, to invite other types of accidents.

What makes more sense: draw, aim, fire or draw, gangsta position gun, rack slide, un-gangsta, aim, fire, gangsta again (I think?) then I lost count?

That's what I was thinking all those moves are a little theatrical and too gansta for me. I will continue to carry with one in the chamber which seems to work for me.

RowdyatHeart
02-07-2012, 20:02
I have used IC3 for years---the stance especially. I do not crane or bend my neck and head down. If the shot is below me I bend my knees. I generally carry chamber dry and probably always will. I am not a soldier. I am not an LEO. I utilize a tactical shotgun for home defense.

The time I take to rack the slide is simultaneously used to determine shoot or no shoot. My maternal Grandfather blew someone away. You are guilty until proven innocent when, as a civilian, you use deadly force.

Yes I am probably wrong and there are 1 million different reasons why I am wrong but it works for me and it is not committed to muscle memory.

The Israeli mindset fascinates me. I remember listening to one of my uncles describe the Holocaust and how his dad got three friends out of Vienna before it was too late. All three, brothers, lived long lives and one was very influential on me.

RowdyatHeart
02-07-2012, 20:03
http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/duty_calls.png

:cool:

Now that's funny. I don't care who you are!

Jake Starr
02-08-2012, 04:31
At first I thought that your alias was "Yankee Marshall" and that you were advocating “Carry Condition Tactical Butterscotch”, but I subsequently learned the error of my ways.

Perhaps those of you that opine about how much safer, etc. Condition 3/Israeli Carry is, than condition 1, will adopt “Carry Condition Tactical Butterscotch.”

The appropriate video regarding “Carry Condition Tactical Butterscotch” is linked as follows:


Now that is funny....

SigFTW
02-08-2012, 07:00
At first I thought that your alias was "Yankee Marshall" and that you were advocating “Carry Condition Tactical Butterscotch”, but I subsequently learned the error of my ways.

Perhaps those of you that opine about how much safer, etc. Condition 3/Israeli Carry is, than condition 1, will adopt “Carry Condition Tactical Butterscotch.”

The appropriate video regarding “Carry Condition Tactical Butterscotch” is linked as follows:

With all due respect,
RJ

That is too funny!!!:rofl::rofl:

Jake Starr
02-09-2012, 17:25
At first I thought that your alias was "Yankee Marshall" and that you were advocating “Carry Condition Tactical Butterscotch”, but I subsequently learned the error of my ways.

Perhaps those of you that opine about how much safer, etc. Condition 3/Israeli Carry is, than condition 1, will adopt “Carry Condition Tactical Butterscotch.”

The appropriate video regarding “Carry Condition Tactical Butterscotch” is linked as follows:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8pU2IOTEZlU" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8pU2IOTEZlU


1st vid on Tactical Butterscotch was funny...2nd vid was trivel. :upeyes:

talon
02-09-2012, 20:27
Having to decide a response based on, is there a round chambered today, sure messes with the OODA loop.

KISS and consistency are my watchwords.

Great comments so far. And it is doing as I had hoped.

Israeli carry is NOT the same thing as carrying C3 or without a round in the chamber.

Israeli carry is more of a technique and a mindset.

I carry "Israeli" every time I carry a gun. Sometimes I have a round in the chamber, sometimes I do not. It is all situation specific... If you don't understand what I am saying, well then, you don't understand what it means to carry "Israeli."

Glenn E. Meyer
02-10-2012, 09:30
Mixing chambered vs. unchambered goes against most training and human factors literature as Talon pointed out. Carrying Israeli seems more about posturing in this thread concerning one's mindset than realistic evaluation of carry techniques.

SpringerTGO
02-10-2012, 10:41
So Jake is proposing that Israeli's walk around with a different mindset than people in questionable parts NY, Chicago, LA, etc?
Jake, maybe you can tell us how their brains develop so differently than other peoples? Is it all the kosher food?
I've known quite a few Israeli's, lived with them, shot guns with them, etc. They all put their shoes on one at a time, just like the rest of us. My best friend in the late 70's was a former Israeli paratrooper/sniper. He was the best marksman (with a rifle) I have ever seen, but nothing special with a handgun.

mdsn969
02-10-2012, 11:57
So Jake is proposing that Israeli's walk around with a different mindset than people in questionable parts NY, Chicago, LA, etc?
Jake, maybe you can tell us how their brains develop so differently than other peoples? Is it all the kosher food?
I've known quite a few Israeli's, lived with them, shot guns with them, etc. They all put their shoes on one at a time, just like the rest of us. My best friend in the late 70's was a former Israeli paratrooper/sniper. He was the best marksman (with a rifle) I have ever seen, but nothing special with a handgun.

No it is the rockets, suicide bombers, and the constant real threat of terrorist attacks that differentiate Israel from the questionable parts NY, Chicago, LA, etc? :shocked:

SpringerTGO
02-10-2012, 15:52
No it is the rockets, suicide bombers, and the constant real threat of terrorist attacks that differentiate Israel from the questionable parts NY, Chicago, LA, etc? :shocked:

Sorry, but I'm not buying it.
The average mindset of an Israeli is no different than any other person living in a congested high crime area, if even that observant of their surroundings.

Kind of reminds me of a lot of the martial artists I've known with the attitude of "if it's not something foreign it can't possibly be good".

How this distorted itself into "Israeli Carry" is pretty funny.

Jake Starr
02-10-2012, 17:06
Sorry, but I'm not buying it.
The average mindset of an Israeli is no different than any other person living in a congested high crime area, if even that observant of their surroundings.

Kind of reminds me of a lot of the martial artists I've known with the attitude of "if it's not something foreign it can't possibly be good".

How this distorted itself into "Israeli Carry" is pretty funny.

Not so. There is something known as the "Israeli Combat Mindset" which most Westerners do not have nor have they been trained to have. Some of our Military and SWAT, SRT, HRT, yes...The closest thing we have here is what someone gets if they have received Active Shooter Scenario training.

When I say "Israeli Carry" it most often means C3 carry (but not always) yet always with an "Israeli Combat Mindset."

SpringerTGO
02-10-2012, 21:40
Not so. There is something known as the "Israeli Combat Mindset" which most Westerners do not have nor have they been trained to have. Some of our Military and SWAT, SRT, HRT, yes...The closest thing we have here is what someone gets if they have received Active Shooter Scenario training.

When I say "Israeli Carry" it most often means C3 carry (but not always) yet always with an "Israeli Combat Mindset."

Jake.......
While I don't necessarily agree with your positions on Israeli Carry (the real one, involving guns), you at least make reasonable arguments to support your position.
But if you are asking me to believe the average Israeli walks around like "Some of our Military and SWAT, SRT, HRT....." I'm going to need waders to read your posts, because it's getting awfully deep in Glocktalk.
By "some" are you suggesting that not even those specially trained (and combat experienced) people have the mindset of your average Israeli citizen?

Deaf Smith
02-10-2012, 21:52
Interesting piece of Israelis and guns.

http://www.calgunlaws.com/index.php/che-talk/694.html

But alot of them don't have guns!

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3762760,00.html

Apparently only 7 % are licensed to carry guns.

http://www.israeliguide.com/index.aspx?id=2728

Deaf

Tiro Fijo
02-10-2012, 23:24
Not so. There is something known as the "Israeli Combat Mindset" which most Westerners do not have nor have they been trained to have. Some of our Military and SWAT, SRT, HRT, yes...The closest thing we have here is what someone gets if they have received Active Shooter Scenario training.

When I say "Israeli Carry" it most often means C3 carry (but not always) yet always with an "Israeli Combat Mindset."



What are you trying to accomplish here as there has already been beat to death in eleventy million threads, such as this one, on Israeli Carry?

Use the search function. :wavey:

P.S. Get a revolver if you're afraid of one in the chamber.

Jake Starr
02-11-2012, 06:18
But if you are asking me to believe the average Israeli walks around like "Some of our Military and SWAT, SRT, HRT....." I'm going to need waders to read your posts, because it's getting awfully deep in Glocktalk.
By "some" are you suggesting that not even those specially trained (and combat experienced) people have the mindset of your average Israeli citizen?


No you are correct. The average Israeli does not have such a mindset. But the average Israeli who carries a gun is better prepared than say the average American who carries a gun. Mainly because most are trained to deal with a terrorist threat and dealing with such takes a different course of action than say dealing with a mere armed encounter. While we teach civilians and even LEOs that time, distance and cover is our friend...with Active shooter/terrorist threats these are not the case...closing distance rapidly and taking out the threat ASAP is.

Not a dead horse by any means. Many still carry C3...I am merely saying that if that is the way you carry you should also try to get training in the Israeli method.

This horse will ride again.

Tiro Fijo
02-11-2012, 12:35
...Not a dead horse by any means. Many still carry C3...I am merely saying that if that is the way you carry you should also try to get training in the Israeli method.

This horse will ride again.


My money says that you have never even been to Israel. :yawn:

Jake Starr
02-11-2012, 15:02
My money says that you have never even been to Israel.

You are correct. But it is on my list for this year.



Have you ever met the Israeli LTC who is in charge of all firearms training for the entire IDF? How many Duvdevan soldiers have you had training from?

Your question or mine to yours are moot points.

SpringerTGO
02-11-2012, 17:25
No you are correct. The average Israeli does not have such a mindset. But the average Israeli who carries a gun is better prepared than say the average American who carries a gun. Mainly because most are trained to deal with a terrorist threat and dealing with such takes a different course of action than say dealing with a mere armed encounter. While we teach civilians and even LEOs that time, distance and cover is our friend...with Active shooter/terrorist threats these are not the case...closing distance rapidly and taking out the threat ASAP is.

Not a dead horse by any means. Many still carry C3...I am merely saying that if that is the way you carry you should also try to get training in the Israeli method.

This horse will ride again.

OK Jake,
Now it's no longer "your average Israeli", but "your average Israeli with a gun". And this from a guy who has never been to Israel. How many more conditions do you want to add? I'd be willing to admit, that your "average Israeli Paratrooper, has a tougher mindset than your average American civilian with a gun.:rofl: So tell us, Jake, what evidence do you have to support your b.s.? You haven't met "your average Israeli with a gun", but you know their mindset? I'm guessing you were involved with the experiments like ,"Men who stare at goats".
And you still want to tell us that your average Israeli with a gun has a tougher mindset than U.S. Special Forces, Swat, HRT?
Have you been drinking too much Manachevitz?

Jake Starr
02-12-2012, 07:30
OK Jake,
Now it's no longer "your average Israeli", but "your average Israeli with a gun". And this from a guy who has never been to Israel. How many more conditions do you want to add? I'd be willing to admit, that your "average Israeli Paratrooper, has a tougher mindset than your average American civilian with a gun. So tell us, Jake, what evidence do you have to support your b.s.? You haven't met "your average Israeli with a gun", but you know their mindset? I'm guessing you were involved with the experiments like ,"Men who stare at goats".
And you still want to tell us that your average Israeli with a gun has a tougher mindset than U.S. Special Forces, Swat, HRT?
Have you been drinking too much Manachevitz?

Evidently you failed to read my posts correctly.

But if you are asking me to believe the average Israeli walks around like "Some of our Military and SWAT, SRT, HRT....."

What I am trying to tell you is that Israelis are trained to behave as, "hey if you have a gun, you solve the problem." Difference is mindset over training.

I can only tell you what I have been told and have been trained by those who have trained others in Israel and abroad.

Just because I haven't been to Israel does not mean my info is defunct. That is a Genetic Fallicy...

...I could meet up with you and have you train me on the Mount of Olives and still not be trained in the Israeli method. But if I have had trainers from Israel come to the US and train me here, I would dare say I am alot closer to understanding the Israel method than some others.


Have you been drinking too much Manachevitz?

Not lately.